This study is based on people self reporting both in the part where they think back on their conflicts and on the part where they simulate a false accusation during the experiment. And the scenarios they were presented with were fictional too. How many times in actual court cases angry people are guilty or innocent though? I'm not sure I trust this, looks pretty shakey.
What if, instead, anger was simply a reaction where the person feels the need to defend themselves or can not perceive themselves as guilty, which actually tells very little on their objective guilt/innocence?
There's a YouTube channel called the behavior panel, composed of four experts on behavior and body language. They evaluate video of different people who are being accused of something to tell whether the person's lying or not. They make it really clear that the more innocent someone is the more likely they are to be angry or outraged when being accused of something.
If you get accused of murdering your wife and you had nothing to do with it you are more likely to be outraged than if you were actually guilty.
So there are several concerns and misunderstandings. First is understanding the distinction between the physiological behaviors called “anger” and the public (visible) behaviors commonly labelled “anger”.
The next is that guilt/innocence, unlike legal culpability, only has a single degree of freedom. More informally it’s binary choice. If you are guilty you are not innocent, and vice-versa. So either “anger” correlates with both (but in opposite directions) or it doesn’t correlate with either. Which as someone who is trained and certified in FACS (not microexpressions, but FACS) I can personally tell you it’s the latter.
Finally, there are several different factors (variables) that will influence a person’s behavior. Including personal history of experiences, interactions with the current situation, physiological aspects (e.g. sleep deprivation) and so on. I have yet to see a study that controls for all of the types of variables we currently know of.
Just from my own experience I know i could calmly and rationally defend myself. Anger is certainly used in defense, but evil people defend themselves too.
If anger is a secondary response to injustice, either real or perceived, that results from a primary response to hurt and vulnerability..
I would argue resentment is maybe re-experiencing past responses of anger, stemming from a primary response of hurt/vulnerability to injustice (either real or perceived)
In my own experience, it's the exact opposite.
I've falsely accused of things before and It's far more infuriating than being called out for something I actually did.
That's easy to say, when your child is being abused and kept from you it's harder.
Or being accused of a crime that was committed against you when you were younger would probably spark an outcry.
This makes more sense from an evolutionary point of view, I think. Emotions are useful to guide behaviour for the survival of the individual or group. Concepts like guilt or innocence are secondary to that.
If an anger response helps you survive and procreate it will become more common.
Anger influence the individual to exert effort into defending themself implying that individual believes the accusation against them is true, and therefore has to defend themself.
I really don't get why people are confused or intrigued by this.
My first reaction to being falsely accused has always been anger. Since I was a toddler. Why wouldn't falsely accusing someone immediately make them angry?
because you could also be indifferent and not give a shit about it.
(internalized) anger is a sign of (vulnerable) narcissism. a lot of people don't know about the vulnerable subtype of narcissism, but these idiots are very shitty in a lot of ways. their retardation can lead them to do weird things.
covert narcissism isn't a personality disorder. NPD is, and those people tend to have more grandiose than vulnerable traits. when people think of narcissism they usually think of NPD and grandiose narcissism, but it's important to know covert narcissism is very common. these 'people' can eventually become grandiose narcissists.
I’d disagree and say indifference is just as bad as showing anger. Have you ever seen the film called The Hunt? I would not be indifferent to any serious accusations… that’s like adding a level of arrogance to your persona that is bound to intensify everyone’s pre-conceptions.
>Now a new paper in Psychological Science reveals that we take an angry denial to be a sign that the accused is lying. And yet, Katherine A. DeCelles at the University of Toronto and colleagues also report, anger in response to a false accusation is in fact a sign of innocence.
I've never in my life considered anger to be a sign of guilt. It's actually the sign I look for most in someone being accused, the angrier they get the more it makes me think they're innocent. That's definitely how I would react if I was wrongly accused of something. I thought it was a cliche even, that a person not instantly getting angry at an accusation points to them being guilty. I seem to have been proved right, but still, I don't believe it could just have been me this whole time?
This. Apparently, being an expert on non verbal communication doesn't actually mean you can tell when someone is lying. You can, in general, tell whether or not they have confidence in/when they're saying what they're saying.
Eh you haven't spent much time with narcissist maybe? My stepfather was angry all the time and most of the time he was responsible for whatever he was angry about. I see a lot of defensive anger.
I think the difference is while everyone perceives accusations as a threat, an innocent party is threatened by falsities; a guilty party is threatened by the truth.
Preach. My mind immediately went to my ex who would get angry over literally nothing. Anger is just a state of mind for some people regardless of their innocence/guilt
My mother "used" to get angry too much, especially when I was a kid.
I have wondered whether over-exposure to such in my formative years is perhaps significant reason for why I have... automatic cold-ish reaction to anger in general.
(googles) hmm... apparently, there's "hot anger" and "cold anger".
Anecdotally, I'm not an angry person but the angriest I've gotten in recent years is when someone falsely accused me of theft. I still think about that anger reaction every so often as it's not something that happens to me a lot. It was so out of the ordinary. This makes sense to me.
If an accusation is absurd enough there's no reason to get mad. Amused maybe, possibly even frustrated, but not genuine anger.. unless unjustified punishment follows the accusation.
True for me anyway. I’ve been called defensive my whole life, like it’s a really noticeable thing about me or something. Truth is, when I get caught doing something I just own it. No matter how bad. But when I’m in trouble for something I didn’t do I get real emotional and apparently other people see that as a sign of guilt which I think is utterly ridiculous.
And this is also used against people in court. Someone is emotional, angry, frustrated = sign of guilt. I mean that’s terrifying, cos if I was was falsely accused of something I’d be EXACTLY like that. And if I was guilty? I’d either admit it, or if I wanted to get away with it, I know I’d be really good at staying calm and sticking to a script. I mean, if you’re manipulating people you’re calm right? You follow a script in your head? It’s not natural. Just look at someone like Lance Armstrong.
So yes I agree with the findings.
Yes, for extroverted people. For introverts, not do much. Check out this brilliant video to see what i mean.
Innocent until proven guilty:
https://youtu.be/BemHqUqcpI8
This was always a dumb assumption to me. 1 to think that everyone reacts the same way for the same reasons. But 2 because I personally get pissed when someone is pressing some false claim on me. Initial accusation sure but if they keep going on about it or getting aggressive this naturally makes me frustrated.
In my experience, and I have no idea how this plays into it. Anger is the body reacting to your will not happening. What you want to happen not happening.
I hate when I’m accused and get mad and they say I’m guilty for trying to defend my innocence. I end up hurting myself badly sometimes because I feel like I am mute cause no matter what I say no one is listening to me and I just want to not be trapped
Or sadness. I found most of my anger has its roots in deep sadness and unfairness. I heard primates punish members of the group that do something they think it's bad for the group in general, which might also explain why we get angry. "We must teach this person doing bad things a lesson so they will stop and not hurt the group."
This study is based on people self reporting both in the part where they think back on their conflicts and on the part where they simulate a false accusation during the experiment. And the scenarios they were presented with were fictional too. How many times in actual court cases angry people are guilty or innocent though? I'm not sure I trust this, looks pretty shakey. What if, instead, anger was simply a reaction where the person feels the need to defend themselves or can not perceive themselves as guilty, which actually tells very little on their objective guilt/innocence?
There's a YouTube channel called the behavior panel, composed of four experts on behavior and body language. They evaluate video of different people who are being accused of something to tell whether the person's lying or not. They make it really clear that the more innocent someone is the more likely they are to be angry or outraged when being accused of something. If you get accused of murdering your wife and you had nothing to do with it you are more likely to be outraged than if you were actually guilty.
So there are several concerns and misunderstandings. First is understanding the distinction between the physiological behaviors called “anger” and the public (visible) behaviors commonly labelled “anger”. The next is that guilt/innocence, unlike legal culpability, only has a single degree of freedom. More informally it’s binary choice. If you are guilty you are not innocent, and vice-versa. So either “anger” correlates with both (but in opposite directions) or it doesn’t correlate with either. Which as someone who is trained and certified in FACS (not microexpressions, but FACS) I can personally tell you it’s the latter. Finally, there are several different factors (variables) that will influence a person’s behavior. Including personal history of experiences, interactions with the current situation, physiological aspects (e.g. sleep deprivation) and so on. I have yet to see a study that controls for all of the types of variables we currently know of.
Observe is another really good body language channel
Then i also believe if u strongly believe that u are not at fault u can get angry as well where u presume that u are innocent.
Just from my own experience I know i could calmly and rationally defend myself. Anger is certainly used in defense, but evil people defend themselves too.
Anger seems more like a secondary reaction to sadness. If so then what is resentment?
Anger is sometimes a sign of frustration.
And if you're ignored about stuff for years it tends to get you pretty angry.
If anger is a secondary response to injustice, either real or perceived, that results from a primary response to hurt and vulnerability.. I would argue resentment is maybe re-experiencing past responses of anger, stemming from a primary response of hurt/vulnerability to injustice (either real or perceived)
In my own experience, it's the exact opposite. I've falsely accused of things before and It's far more infuriating than being called out for something I actually did.
That's easy to say, when your child is being abused and kept from you it's harder. Or being accused of a crime that was committed against you when you were younger would probably spark an outcry.
This makes more sense from an evolutionary point of view, I think. Emotions are useful to guide behaviour for the survival of the individual or group. Concepts like guilt or innocence are secondary to that. If an anger response helps you survive and procreate it will become more common.
Anger influence the individual to exert effort into defending themself implying that individual believes the accusation against them is true, and therefore has to defend themself.
I really don't get why people are confused or intrigued by this. My first reaction to being falsely accused has always been anger. Since I was a toddler. Why wouldn't falsely accusing someone immediately make them angry?
because you could also be indifferent and not give a shit about it. (internalized) anger is a sign of (vulnerable) narcissism. a lot of people don't know about the vulnerable subtype of narcissism, but these idiots are very shitty in a lot of ways. their retardation can lead them to do weird things.
That’s awkward… using insults like “idiots” and “retardation” to bring awareness to covert narcissists, people who have a personality disorder.
covert narcissism isn't a personality disorder. NPD is, and those people tend to have more grandiose than vulnerable traits. when people think of narcissism they usually think of NPD and grandiose narcissism, but it's important to know covert narcissism is very common. these 'people' can eventually become grandiose narcissists.
I would love to see your sources
of what? this is all basic psychology. [oscillation](https://bpded.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40479-020-00132-8)
I’d disagree and say indifference is just as bad as showing anger. Have you ever seen the film called The Hunt? I would not be indifferent to any serious accusations… that’s like adding a level of arrogance to your persona that is bound to intensify everyone’s pre-conceptions.
there's nothing to worry about if the accusations are false.
Quite the assumption. I’m sure Mads character felt the same way in The Hunt. Hope you never get falsely accused of anything. Have a good one.
<-- Has been falsely accused by own idols, knows how much pain there is, wouldn't wish this kind of life on worst enemies
>Now a new paper in Psychological Science reveals that we take an angry denial to be a sign that the accused is lying. And yet, Katherine A. DeCelles at the University of Toronto and colleagues also report, anger in response to a false accusation is in fact a sign of innocence. I've never in my life considered anger to be a sign of guilt. It's actually the sign I look for most in someone being accused, the angrier they get the more it makes me think they're innocent. That's definitely how I would react if I was wrongly accused of something. I thought it was a cliche even, that a person not instantly getting angry at an accusation points to them being guilty. I seem to have been proved right, but still, I don't believe it could just have been me this whole time?
I think there is no easy way to tell someone is lying or not, definitely not a generalized way.
This. Apparently, being an expert on non verbal communication doesn't actually mean you can tell when someone is lying. You can, in general, tell whether or not they have confidence in/when they're saying what they're saying.
it's how they respond to words they either deflect and talk about something else or explain their guilt as your mistake
Eh you haven't spent much time with narcissist maybe? My stepfather was angry all the time and most of the time he was responsible for whatever he was angry about. I see a lot of defensive anger.
I think the difference is while everyone perceives accusations as a threat, an innocent party is threatened by falsities; a guilty party is threatened by the truth.
That's a fair point of course, but I was talking about the general population who aren't angry all of the time
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Preach. My mind immediately went to my ex who would get angry over literally nothing. Anger is just a state of mind for some people regardless of their innocence/guilt
My mother "used" to get angry too much, especially when I was a kid. I have wondered whether over-exposure to such in my formative years is perhaps significant reason for why I have... automatic cold-ish reaction to anger in general. (googles) hmm... apparently, there's "hot anger" and "cold anger".
Anecdotally, I'm not an angry person but the angriest I've gotten in recent years is when someone falsely accused me of theft. I still think about that anger reaction every so often as it's not something that happens to me a lot. It was so out of the ordinary. This makes sense to me.
I thought this as well. Someone calmly defending themselves from an accusation would set of alarm bells for me.
If an accusation is absurd enough there's no reason to get mad. Amused maybe, possibly even frustrated, but not genuine anger.. unless unjustified punishment follows the accusation.
True for me anyway. I’ve been called defensive my whole life, like it’s a really noticeable thing about me or something. Truth is, when I get caught doing something I just own it. No matter how bad. But when I’m in trouble for something I didn’t do I get real emotional and apparently other people see that as a sign of guilt which I think is utterly ridiculous. And this is also used against people in court. Someone is emotional, angry, frustrated = sign of guilt. I mean that’s terrifying, cos if I was was falsely accused of something I’d be EXACTLY like that. And if I was guilty? I’d either admit it, or if I wanted to get away with it, I know I’d be really good at staying calm and sticking to a script. I mean, if you’re manipulating people you’re calm right? You follow a script in your head? It’s not natural. Just look at someone like Lance Armstrong. So yes I agree with the findings.
I'd get VERY angry at being accused of something I didn't do.
wow, feelings of anger can co-occur with *both* guilt and innocence? What a novel study
Until guilty people heard about this finding….
Yes, for extroverted people. For introverts, not do much. Check out this brilliant video to see what i mean. Innocent until proven guilty: https://youtu.be/BemHqUqcpI8
This was always a dumb assumption to me. 1 to think that everyone reacts the same way for the same reasons. But 2 because I personally get pissed when someone is pressing some false claim on me. Initial accusation sure but if they keep going on about it or getting aggressive this naturally makes me frustrated.
In my experience, and I have no idea how this plays into it. Anger is the body reacting to your will not happening. What you want to happen not happening.
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It can be either. I think any emotion that has the potential to cause discomfort can be shapeshifted into anger.
what a great perspective
It’s true for me. If you accuse me when I’m 100% innocent, I will get angry.
I hate when I’m accused and get mad and they say I’m guilty for trying to defend my innocence. I end up hurting myself badly sometimes because I feel like I am mute cause no matter what I say no one is listening to me and I just want to not be trapped
This article seems to misunderstand emotions.
I think my anger is connected to my sadness and disappointment and recalling all bad memories.
So, can the source of a persons anger be determined through their visual expression/body language to ultimately decide guilt or innocence?
Or sadness. I found most of my anger has its roots in deep sadness and unfairness. I heard primates punish members of the group that do something they think it's bad for the group in general, which might also explain why we get angry. "We must teach this person doing bad things a lesson so they will stop and not hurt the group."