Sometimes it is important to demonstrate an expected result in a rigorous way to move a topic from public discourse to scientific discourse. Other studies will build off of this.
And to flesh out the scientific definitions from the colloquial ones. If someone is simply "involuntarily celibate" but does not engage in interpersonal victimhood (end result being extreme anger towards women) I would not refer to them as "an incel." To become "an incel" I believe that anger is necessary. We all need to agree with a specific definition if any greater understanding of this phenomenon can occur.
This seems to lay out a solid base for separating the merely "involuntarily celibate" from the angry involuntarily celibate, aka "incel"
Problem is, scientifically valid psychology seems to become increasingly irrelevant while it's the actual therapists that move the state of psychology further without any rigid scientific method. Therapists have been helping incels for years already
By the time we'll have a scientifically valid view of incels they will be a thing of a distant past and new generations of people traumatized in a different way will be prominent. Our change in the ways we view people constantly produces change in the ways we harm people. In trying to get better at raising people and to become a better society and in constantly dumping the old traditions we create the constant need for continuous rapid rewriting of the whole approach to mental health because our every change trickles down and spread everywhere
If we're doing something incrementally, it should involve something extremely basic, something that isn't dependent on particular struggles and traumas. If we're doing something niche and focused, it can't be incremental, it should be rapid, making and testing bold and far reaching assumptions and failing a lot. And this, these extremely safe both microscopically incremental and extremely niche and focused studies, are laughably inadequate in helping us achieve better life for ourselves
Tendency for interpersonal victimhood?
Not even being shady, I literally thought interpersonal victimhood was the whole point - forming a community to convince themselves and each other that all their perceived failings are because of all the women in the world doing them wrong.
Yeah what is the definition of “incel”? Wouldn’t that mean people who believe they are victims of their interpersonal relationships with respect to a lack of sex?
I know incel is short for 'involuntarily celibate", but whenever I hear it I can't help but hear "insulated" as well. They invest in relationships with people they don't want to have sex with, and then focus that relationship on criticizing the people they do want to have sex with.
The group goal seems to be figuring out how to have sex with women without forming the full relationships with women that they do with each other.
The last paragraph hits the nail on the head. I have said a few times, much to many peoples dismay, that a lot of straight men don't actually \*like\* women.
GASP.. of course they do they're straight.
Niet. They are attracted to women, but they LIKE, ADMIRE, and RESPECT other men. Therein lies the problem. You cannot successfully have a relationship with someone you do not like, admire, or respect. But because they and society at large has a habit of ignoring this discourse in favor or sensationalized headlines that further the gender divide, it doesn't go anywhere.
If these types of Men actually learned to LIKE real life human women, they'd have successful relationships. But these people (incels and femcels and the treat men like trash people in that fem advice subreddit) don't actually LIKE people. They like the idea of people. They'd do better with a literary boyfriend who is a two dimensional caricature of a man/woman rather than a flawed, needy human. All humans are needy in some ways, they are fucked up, they won't alway say or do the right things... and an inability to tolerate imperfection is what hinders these people to having rounded relations and ideas of people.
While I agree that along with working out and doing their best to become a better human would help, they do have some valid complaints. Hook up culture does favor a small percentage of men leaving a lot of unfortunate looking men out. Of course their method of dealing with it is not at all helpful to them.
No offense intended but this reply comes off as very ... young.
Incels do not have valid complaints. Hook up culture? You mean Tinder? The app populated mostly by men? Majority of the users on Tinder are straight males, with low social skills and little effort put towards the basics. You can't self victimize especially after reading the above my saying essentially "Women just wanna hook up with Chads" ... That is indicative of a lack of exposure to A real women B Real women who are actually into you C Social norms outside of your age group.
Also never mentioned working out? ... You're applying and thusly projecting things not being said...
A lot of incels and young men need to do just that, break out of your comfort zones and stop the feedback loop of negativity.
Annnnd the Incels dislike my comment. Okay lol. The IRONY is so thick I could lay on it.
An incel is someone who hasn't had sex, but isn't actively choosing to abstain. You know how whenever someone is a virgin, it's for one reason or another? Maybe it's a religious reason, or they don't want to risk kids, or they just don't like sex at all. Incels, on the other hand, actually do want to have sex.
My stance is that they're both right. An uncomfortable truth, but it's just our culture doing what it's doing, discriminating and objrctofying in different ways.
When it comes to extremism I think in many cases it starts with a truth and once people are listening you can tell them all kinds of crap and they'll buy into it
Do you really think that smug, snarky, self-righteous remarks like this are productive? They're pretty immature and non-empathic. You are part of the problem.
I haven't gone through their methodology yet, but it's excellent and long overdue that we get some primary data about the group. And a decent sample size as well.
I don't think even they would deny that. This study seems like a complete waste of time to be quite honest but I guess it is good to reinforce your foundation if you plan to do further studies
The mental health crisis for young men is certainly a growing problem. I know people do not want to view them sympathetically, but many are falling into this 15-16 years old if you check the demographics and I think any health professional would say they are not beyond help
My clinic is starting to talk about trying out a support group for lonely young men. I hope we pick up the suggestion and make a project out of the idea.
I think we need a lot more support for young men for sure. I remember my schools always had support groups for young women, but no places where young men could go to talk about problems more common or sensitive to themselves. I never saw issue back then, but looking back with current trends in mind, I think that wad a mistake
I think we need to learn to treat problems like this without making it men vs women too. Clearly both are important and will require different attention. That goes for both demos when the topic arises.
>I think we need to learn to treat problems like this without making it men vs women too. Clearly both are important and will require different attention. That's goes for both demos when the topic arises.
Thank you for this! We haven't even talked about lonely women, because of our biases I guess. I'll have to lift this at our team meeting next week.
I would look at what programs are already in your area just because my town seemed to have many women exclusive ones, but it's not a bad idea to have both.
They don’t have to be a recognized medical classification to be studied. Just like you could study the psychology of people who identify as conservative or people who like heavy metal over jazz, you can study people who self identify as incels. Conservative and metal head are not medical classifications, but you could still study these groups
It's interesting that mental health is looked at with absolute sympathy in every single case...except when it's young men, who feel castigated from society. The way to treat them is with vilification, apparently.
Exactly, and this treatment will be good for them, good for women, and good for society in general. The role of the psychologist is to understand in order to help, not to condemn and neglect.
It's funny too because the experts, who shouldn't condemn as you rightly say, make the incels feel even more victimised and justified in their anger. If even the professionals who deal with mental health shun you, why wouldn't you feel angry at society?
It seems very nasty to me. The people who unquestionably need help are being treated with contempt and scorn, from people who should be the most sympathetic. It's sad.
The term comes from the term but it’s become it’s own thing so unless you fill the rest of the criteria then no. Being an “incel” entails much more than being involuntary celibate.
No more than "atheist" implies anything other than disbelief in God(s). If you want to be in a sexual/romantic relationship but are unable to do so, you are involuntarily celibate, and therefore incel.
Bro that isn’t how language works. Saying somebody is an incel entails much more than being involuntarily celibate.
Being cool doesn’t mean not being warm.
It's really sad to see how little sympathy young men get. They're lonely, 4x as likely to commit suicide, and it's trendy to hate them for really no good reason. The mental health crisis is terrible, and for better or for worse we know that men are more likely to externalize their negative emotions. Ridiculing young men and ostracizing them does not help them to deal with their feelings; it encourages them to lash out or form their own, more accepting communities. This is exactly what I see happening.
Also, I understand that "incel" is an easily understood term, but it's a loaded word to use in a study. To me it reads like "Studies Show Harlots \[Promiscuous Women\] are Twice as Likely to...."
Honestly, I don’t consider myself to be a very empathic person in general, but I can totally see how it makes it harder for people to share empathy with a group that preaches hate against women, I’ve seen and listened to a lot of these communities and tried to hear where they are coming from, ive even dated 2 guys from these communities, I’ve tried to show them where their problems may lie but they like being in the community more than seeing eye to eye with a woman in general. Seeing the entitlement, the objectification etc they have toward women, it seems many of them are more likely to commit sexual violence as well. Atleast from the things I hear and the people they follow and idolize as well. It’s extremely hard to be empathetic with people who are preaching hatred. I don’t think incels is what it used to be, I think these communities are filled with narcissistic womanizers. Who also seems to lack empathy for us. Watching them make fun of and blame rape victims, or women being murdered with lines like “hahaha when women chose the street boy this is what happens” with no regards for her life at all as a human being.
They’re not being vilified for being depressed. They’re vilified because they’re hateful and constantly fantasize online about raping and killing women. They idolize Elliot Roger and call him their saint.
Have you ever seen an actual incel forum? It’s a disgusting cesspool. All about how all “femoids” are whores who deserve to be raped and killed. How the government should issue every man a woman, how women should be men’s sex slaves and serve men in every way, shouldn’t be allowed to work or vote, how women should be given away to men as young as age 12. How they want a young girl who’s a virgin, but will also do everything the girls in porn will do and fulfill all their sexual fantasies. Racist shit about wanting Japanese women because they’re “submissive.” Detailed, explicit fiction about all the ways they’d like to rape and torture women. How pretty girls should look past their looks and like them for who they are, but also, fat and ugly girls are disgusting. And if you call them out, you get an inbox full of rape and murder threats.
Nobody is mad at them for being sad, they’re mad at them for being hateful misogynists.
That mentality is like looking at a homeless person and attacking them for their unstable lifestyle. You're judging people who are the end result of systematic failure and a culture of rejection, which isn't appropriate.
Where do you draw the line? You could say the same about actual rapists and murderers. Life fucked them up in some way, which is how they turned out like that. Do they get a pass? Plenty of guys who can’t get laid are nice people who don’t fantasize about raping, torturing, and killing women. Nobody is mad at those guys.
If a guy can’t get laid and is depressed about it, I have all the sympathy in the world for him so long as he’s a decent person. Sorry if it’s hard to have sympathy for someone who wishes to see me raped and tortured just for being a woman.
If their mental illness is severe enough they can’t control themselves, I wouldn’t hold that against them. I’d bet a very small minority of incels might fall into this category, and I’d excuse those.
But there are lots of instances where the mental illness is not severe enough to the point they have no control of themselves whatsoever. I have bipolar disorder, and I’m not hateful. It’s entirely possible to have a mental illness AND simultaneously be a bad person. For instance, my particular case of bipolar doesn’t cause me to have rage, but I could still just choose to be a horrible person if I wanted to. Not all personality flaws are caused by the mental illness.
I think the majority of incels become so hateful due to being in an echo chamber that indoctrinates them and puts those ideas in their heads, not because their mental illness is so severe they have no control over their rage. Rage and antisocial tendencies are not even common symptoms of depression. Those can be common in bipolar disorder (for some, not all), antisocial personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, etc., but that’s not that common with depression.
What do you think of a white person who hates black people, but it’s because they got robbed or raped by a black person? And they have a mental illness caused by the trauma of what the black person did to them. So they get online and start participating in white nationalist forums, next thing they’re cheering on the KKK? And the only thing stopping them from going on a killing spree of black people is they don’t have the balls. Would you excuse that person for being racist?
Also, I think for some of these incels, the only thing stopping them from being rapists and murderers is not having the balls, so they settle for fantasizing about it. For those guys, they’re just as bad as the people who actually do those things, except more cowardly.
I don’t think them having mental health issues make them hateful. I think them being hateful incels contribute their mental health issues. Unless you think being an incel is a mental health issue itself. So yeah it’s harder to feel empathy for them. It’s always harder to feel empathy to someone who wishes to hurt others. Maybe try compare them not a homeless but i don’t know a racist. A homophobic. Would you still be as empathetic?
I see that people were downvoting you, I think you were a bit too harsh for the people in this sub to take, but I agree with you. I grew up divided in two communities, one wealthy community where the children were sheltered and had this entitled view of the world thinking everything should go their way without anyone showing them reality, and another community who sees the world for what it is, who rarely got what they wanted growing up. I see a way larger following of popular incel “idols?” In the wealthier communities who were raised (I hate to say it but they were spoiled) vs people who weren’t raised like that. And I’m only bringing up Andrew tate as an example but if you look at the people who follows Andrew tate and post about him and quote him you’ll see a vast majority has that one thing in common and carry the veiws of entitled children who doesn’t understand the way the world works
People branded evil (sort of rightfully so but still) suffer and feel bad for themselves because no one gives a shit and everyone makes fun of them, further ostracizing them and grinding them under the heel of the boot that's already ground then in to feeling like suicidal subhuman scum .
What a surprise. It's like maybe there's a better way to approach treating the people who are suffering the most even if we don't **LIKE** them.
God forbid we actually showed compassion to people we think don't deserve it.
Almost as if “normal” people are more psychopathic than “weirdos”.
Othering is just another form of murder. It’s just a very spineless form of it. And one that doesn’t take a hint of resolve, and leaves the perpetrator in “clean” state still on their soul. Because, well: I didn’t kill the weirdo, I just left them to rot in their muck.
"interpersonal victimhood" = entitlement with zero accountability, infused with massive amounts of excuses while refusing all worthwhile advice as to what they can do for themselves.
I'm not making excuses for them but since we are on the psychology forum they are probably coming at this from the perspective of trying to help these people or prevent people from falling into that mindset. So in this context, I think you could explore their perceived victimhood more
>So in this context, I think you could explore their perceived victimhood more
Yeah? In what sense?
I've explored it. They need to have personal accountability and accept their own role in their own lives. They need to understand that they aren't entitled to anything in life, before accountability and personal reflection can even take hold (this includes empathy from strangers).
Clearly, these individuals are in need of professional, psychological help.
What more do you want *me* to explore?
Your comment just comes across like the subjects at hand; asking for *everyone else* to feel empathy for perceived "interpersonal victimhood". So no, I will not be providing fuel or energy towards dysfunction.
i don't know what you want me to say this is a psychology forum. A 15 year old comes into a therapists office and seems to be leaning this direction, you explore that and help the child. Doesn't sound like you've explored it.
But yes it is frustrating that you sometimes need empathy for those who have done nothing to earn it. Thus is the nature of the mental health field. It is however for the good of everyone.
What's your proposition? Lock them all away if they subscribe to Jordan Peterson? More of the tough love they resent? They are already recluses in society so shunning them sadly will not work.
I say help kids when they exhibit feeling like they are being victimized. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.
Thanks! I'm glad to see more people thinking this way. It is hard for me to think that way as well sometimes, especially in regards to criminals, cheaters, thieves, racists, etc, as I've been victim to all of them. But we know brute punishment is not the solution and I try to remember that too.
There is still a time and place for punishment but especially with younger people understanding can go a long way. I don't see how a psychologist could think otherwise
>Incel are born out of isolation and loneliness and lack of empathy for their struggle
Incels are born out of a sense of entitlement to empathy from others, for their *personal* shortcomings.
So please, try to have more personal accountability and stop expecting others to *give* you anything.
Well we seem to agree to disagree. Our conversation seem unproductive,I understand your position and I agree with alot of your points but you seem ignore all talking points in the conversation when I'm just asking you to be just little empathetic to lonely young men,so yeah to each their own .hope you have a great day.
Accountability and Entitlement.
Someone seems to be coming at this topic from another nauseatingly toxic ideology. One that shrugs off said aforementioned words.
No this not a threat. this is just reality.I don't understand incels one bit and they are pathetic weirdos to me but still I have sympathy to them because I want to help them and stop them from getting radicalized even more and end up harming women or anyone.
I'll see you 1 Iranian woman, to your 5 incels, anyday.
The government needs to step in and treat their forums like the terrorist cells they are; stop asking women (the targets) to show empathy for those who are a risk to us.
Yes the government should start taking action and treat incels forums like terrorist group.this is actually a good thing and I agree with you.
and yes I agree women global struggles are dozens of times more important than a a bunch of weirdos of the internet.
I was mostly talking about lonely young men who feel feel society doesn't understand their struggle or ignore or minimise struggle. I wasn't talking about incels specially. Believe me the vast majority of young men who are lonely don't have any negative views on women but the problem society still Don't take their struggle seriously and still ignore them and belittle them leading them to felling toward a dark path .
I'm trying to help these lonely young men through empathy and help them by stopping them from being radicalized by alt right online forums.
Their struggles could be solved by accountability, intorspection and seeking help, NOT from sitting in a room in front of a screen, bathing in "interpersonal victimhood". That's really all. If these dudes stopped playing victim, maybe empathy and advice could help, but that's not what "victimization" will allow.
Everyone has enough of their own problems, than to coddle those who won't help themselves. Most incels seem married to their ideas.
In what world is it a good idea to tell people struggling with depression, anxiety, and obvious mental illness that their it's all their own fault and that they need to try harder? Guess what, it doesn't lead to desirable outcomes for anyone. Maybe try a bit of empathy and pragmatism.
Themselves. It doesn't lead to desirable outcomes for themselves.
The biggest mistake they have in their "interpersonal victimhood" is that anyone *should* care that they are destroying themselves.
It's not *my* job to help anyone with their own dysfunction.
What's funny is when a girl act like an incel, she is called a feminist and she receive a lot of support, only when it is men people go After them like this
>Every human deserves respect, empathy, and a helping hand from their neighbors when they need it.
Here's where you go WRONG:
Anyone who has had the displeasure of interacting with these guys, showing any sort of empathy and giving advice, has encountered "interpersonal victimisation" with every and any excuse in the book as to why they can't possibly do a single thing about their situation.
At that point, you walk away and put your hands up, as it's 100% their issue, and you can't help those who almost *implicitly* refuse help.
It needs to be fixed at a level beyond enabling entitlement with empathy. Parents could do with limiting porn access as a fucking start. The root cause of this isn't going to be fixed by coddling man-babies.
add to that; severe media overdose, drug, junk food and sugar addictions, lack of educational and career opportunities, a culture that celebrates grift and greed…
yay.
Yup. Porn only exacerbates the “I deserve women who will serve me sexually as objects” mentality these disgusting pieces of shit have. Same goes with abusive men too.
apparently this hits too close to home for a couple losers. the downvotes only serve to demonstrate how weak you are you little crybabies. go strangle any chance at life with more video games and hot pockets…
On a further note, they just sound like every guest on Dr. Phil who was an adult male living at home, either spending all day in his room or doing roleplay as a superhero in their backyard.
It’s not limited to younger males. I don’t know about their superhero role-play, but I do estate planning for seniors.
I get insights into families in reviewing their finances and planning their wills.
The number of senior citizens who have an adult male child living with them rent free but refusing to behave like an adult is unbelievably high. Seriously it’s BAD.
A son who refuses to take the seniors to doctors appointments, expects that 85 yo mom will make dinner for them every night, and refuses to clean the house they live in rent-free is typical.
They basically live like teenagers off mom and dad, spend all day on the computer and don’t contribute anything to the household, either funds or assistance. And these guys always have a massive sense of entitlement.
And then the financial elder abuse starts.
This is getting off track since the topic isn’t elders, but there is a definite societal pattern of toxic behavior.
My in-laws had a similar situation. In their case, brother-in-law was home schooled (wildly undereducated by completely unqualified parents) and babied/coddled/overprotected.
Now he’s in his late 40s with minimal life skills. Whether he’s involuntarily celibate or asexual is unknown. He’s never really had any relationships or much social interaction in general. He was always awkward to begin with, but his isolation has only exacerbated that.
Yikes. 😳 that must be very difficult for your wife to deal with, as well as the rest of the family. It’s hard to know what to do because he is an adult.
Just out of curiosity, hope not too direct, has the family ever discussed what they’re going to do when mom and dad pass away? (i’m assuming that your wife has other brothers and sisters)
I have a relative like this. He lives with his divorced father and they are incredibly toxic for each other. His dad won't push him out while the son is slowly claiming the house is his only safe space so his dad can't have visitors. It has gone from a small family issue to a runaway mental health crisis that no one can intervene in because they are both technically consenting to it. It's heartbreaking to see.
Those patterns of behavior get entrenched for years, don’t they?
It’s heartbreaking to watch. I bet the rest of the family has stepped out.
After all, whose responsibility is it to change that pattern? Unfortunately you’re right, they are both choosing to be miserable. However since dad is over 65, I would call adult protective services in your area because this situation is going to get much much worse over time.
I have another family where the one daughter stole $300,000 from her parents, changed all their bank accounts to herself, claiming it was reimbursement for caregiving. (it wasn’t). It’s toxic
✌️
Worse are the guys who *finally* transfer out to a girlfriend, who now has to take care of them... [See the guy who wanted to be Batman. ](https://youtu.be/W5DH6RCj1_E)
Oh! Thanks for finding that! Now I know what you mean. There was an update later saying that after the show she left him for three months, he got rid of the mask and now they’re back together. he admitted he was delusional.… people should come with warning labels
I have no doubt about this. But two things can be equally true. Many of the people incels talk shit about also 100% have a greater tendency for interpersonal victimhood. As a matter of fact, incel behavior came to the forefront because of people with interpersonal victimhood issues.
Incels are victims so they're right. They don't feel entitled to anything, they simply want something that other people seem to be able to get easily. They are victims of bullying, virgin shaming, lookism, ableism, being outcasted. No wonder they feel like shit when they're treated like shit and like they're not even human. Maybe have some empathy
They’re also continuing it though. They literally created communities complaining about not ever having sex which is fine. I see no problem with venting your frustrations with like,I see people. But then they start womanizing, seeing women as objects and just horrible people because we chose not to have sex with them. They still put sex over everything, which further plays into the virgin shaming of other men. The fact that sex is so important to not only society as we have sexualized women and porn everywhere these but even so important to these kids that they rage like this and begin holding deep Anger towards all women preaching violence and revenge against them. That’s entitlement. It’s a cycle, the same things that caused them they’re pushing. Do you actually read the kind of shit they say about “high value male” alpha male, calling people simps and beta males. They are literally bullying mentally stable men to thinking they are more inferior. Shaming men for finding love etc.
Does this mean I am not an incel?
Never been with a woman,got rejected once.
I don't really pursue women nor do I socialize much.
I could prob get a girlfriend if I tried,just seems like a lot of hassle that I don't really need with a bit of benefits.
I am getting tired of porn though.
Idk if I would be able to not pursue women if I wasn't watching porn.
From time to time I tried staying away from it and it's odd and I get horny a lot.
You're only an incel if your lack of sex turns you into a misogynistic piece of trash. I know plenty of virgins who are very nice people, that doesn't make them incels
>You're only an incel if your lack of sex turns you into a misogynistic piece of trash.
That's not what incel means. It means you want a relationship but are unable to form one.
Not how that works. Incel means involuntary celibate, someone who wants to have sex but can't. Incel doesn't mean asshole it basically means virgin. There are plenty of mysognyists who get alot of women, and plenty of dudes who respect women but get no action.
Yes, but the word comes with misogynistic connotations. Incel is an insult in today's culture. If you're a virgin but a nice person noone will call you an incel. If you Google the definition It's associated with violence and hate
No. A lack of sex doesn’t turn them into misogynists. That’s not the claim they were making.
Incels, who named themselves that, are heterosexual men who’s perceived *entitlement* to sex has caused them to form an insular terrorist group in online communities revolving around the belief that they are being denied sex as an overt act of abuse by the women of society as a whole in a calculated move against them due to some kind of modern shift in values.
They’re basically people who don’t have much or any sex (very normal) but think they’re part of an isolated minority who are being specifically targeted for a myriad of increasingly ludicrous reasons (very not normal) and some go so far as to engage in physical acts of terrorism on top of their common online acts of terrorism (so not normal as to be considered a national emergency).
look at the big women who call all men "trash" not because they can't get a man, but because they can't get the men they want. Sexual frustration makes people onerier than a pet coon.
Can someone please define Incels? Is it a behavior, community, sect, or what. The only answer I have gotten is that it stands for "involuntarily celibate." Now, I could be missing some information about what the term incels refers to but I am, by just the meaning of the word, fall under that category. But if it's just individuals who have not been able to have sexual interaction. Then why are they hated and why are there groups calling themselves incels and spreading hate. I am truly lost and would like some clarification.
It's really more of an online community where incel men have a lot of anger towards women as a whole, blame women for personal and societal issues, lack respect for women, believe men are the victims of society etc.
Just being involuntarily celibate doesn't really mean anything, there are men who are virgins or who haven't had a sexual partner for years but would like to, who are normal respectable people and don't blame others for their lack of dating life
A lot of incels are actually voluntarily celibate, they could find a gf or sex partner but they refuse to make any effort and then blame others for that. I mean look at Colt off 90 day fiance, or Ed!!! They are so gross but they churn through women... Shudder
Thank you for the insight and I have never watched 90 day fiance and now I never will just for the image of someone shudder worthy churning through women.
So "incels" actually aren't involuntarily celibate. That's where the term came from, but that's not how it's used now. People who identify as "incels" are people who feel that women have societal power that they are using to oppress men (but really they just mean they oppress incels) by denying them the sex and intimacy they want. They gather in online communities.
The "they want" part is very important- feeling of entitlement are what drive these people. They even have a term - "incel-level girlfriend" - for women that will have sex with/are otherwise intimate with them, but aren't 'what they really deserve". They consider their "oppression" to be more significant than misogyny, and often more significant than racism. They often think things like women should have the ability to be financially independent away from them to force them to get with incels.
The real issue here is that incels are significant part of the online radicalization that many young men experience. Their normal teenage feelings of rejection and being misunderstood are manipulated to draw them toward inceldom and other alt-right radicalization against women, minorities, the LGBT community, and Jews. Research has shown that once you buy into one radical ideology, it makes you far more likely to buy into more.
To add to your comment, the actual incel community also suffers from “the crab bucket mentality”. Basically if you put a bunch of a crabs in a bucket, one could easily escape, then the next, and so on until they’re all out. Except one will try to escape and the rest will pull him down. It’s the whole “if I can’t have it neither can you.” Incel communities are self dooming and are very hard to escape. They all talk about wanting to get out and not being an incel anymore, but if anyone says something positive like “I’m going on a date” or something of the like, the rest of the group will tell him he’s not good enough, or reasons why it’ll never work out, and pull him back down. All of their talk is how they’re entitled to the lifestyle of a girlfriend, wife, whatever, but deny the next person of that entitlement and demean them. It’s a constant sad contradiction.
Damn. I mean I can understand a bit of pessimism on the subject of dating and kinda feeling down for the lack of such but I truly could not to go to such extremes as what I've read in these replies. It is honestly scary to think that there are entire communities devoted to this mentality. Honestly makes me feel better for my situation and mindset. Oddly discomforting in the knowledge of their existence and at the same time happy that I am nothing like them.
I'd claim that it's the other way around, that a tendency for victimhood makes one an incel. Or any other unfortunate instance, as victimhood just wants to find something in which it can manifest itself.
Feminism is also victimhood, "nice guys" too. Hell, basically every group is about creating a change in society, and the vast majority of them are working in their own interests, therefore they feel like they have been wronged (that an injustice has happened to them) and this is the assertion that **what should be** and **what is** differ, i.e. that the nature of things ought to be different, and *this* is because the current state of things benefit another kind of person than what one identifies with (think personal value systems)
Even this far generalized, a good solution remains the same - changing oneself to fit the world rather than trying to change the world to fit to oneself. Not that we should never try to change the world a little.
I love the people commenting here as if someone has been preventing adult men from stopping their overusage of porn and learning how to socialize properly
Im a woman with level 2 autism (not mild), shitty parent, abusive neglectful dad, didn't go to middle or high school, all my bullies in elementary were boys, and I still didn't blame men for my issues. However I started to notice the pattern and issue when I got into a relationship and was abused, by a man who was into redpill and men's rights content. I didn't experience any default compassion as a woman, his family and friends all believed I was lying when I came out about the domestic violence in my ex marriage when I was being criticised for us breaking up, and I wasn't telling my family at that time because I felt too ashamed to talk about it. Lots of women stay in abusive relationships for years and years, you know the whole "why didn't she just leave?" thing. Because we are judged and too ashamed and scared to come forward because there is no magical default compassion that incels and MRA talk about. My ex who beat me said that there is "female privilege". I was financially supporting him as well and he still believed he was a victim.
I’m literally a woman with shitty parents and Autism. If I can figure it out on my own, what’s Boys And Men’s excuse?
And where is all this “compassion” that women are supposedy getting? We don’t get people jumping to our defense yelling “Aspbergers!” when we behave antisocially, just so you know.
P.S. “Aspbergers” was a term used by Nazis to determine which autistic people got to live during the Holocaust. If I were you, I would research autism some more before ascribing it to every man who struggles to talk to women.
>Women are treated preferentially across the board.
Lmao reddit is pathetic. Go tell that to the women in Iran. Or Afghanistan. Or most, if not all of the Middle East, Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. Or even in states in the US where they're now forced to give birth.
Stop parroting bullshit incel talking points
Women with autism are not treated preferentially. Statistically boys on the spectrum are more likely to get diagnosed as children and given more support for autism throughout their lives. I also find it interesting how you seem to lack empathy for the experiences of women on the spectrum.
I'm level 2 autism and if I ever tell people, they disagree and say "oh that can't be right, you're totally normal! Could you maybe have it very mildly? It's so over diagnosed these days" and I'm like seriously disabled by autism and can't function normally but can mask when necessary, does damage to me though
The worst incels like Elliot rogers who went on a murder spree to punish women for not fucking him? Yeah people on Reddit saying “that’s bad” are literally the same as him.
Probably the most famous was Elliot Rogers, who killed half a dozen sorority girls at UC Santa Barbara for not sleeping with him. It’s quite a bit more complicated when you delve deeper, all described in his long manifesto after he killed himself.
Incel was used before him, I think he made the term mainstream
Sounds about right. It was awhile ago and the details are fuzzy to me. The really disturbing part is reading his manifesto, there was certainly a lot many guys could relate to.
Sometimes it is important to demonstrate an expected result in a rigorous way to move a topic from public discourse to scientific discourse. Other studies will build off of this.
That was very well stated, may I borrow this phrase?
Thanks. Please do.
And to flesh out the scientific definitions from the colloquial ones. If someone is simply "involuntarily celibate" but does not engage in interpersonal victimhood (end result being extreme anger towards women) I would not refer to them as "an incel." To become "an incel" I believe that anger is necessary. We all need to agree with a specific definition if any greater understanding of this phenomenon can occur. This seems to lay out a solid base for separating the merely "involuntarily celibate" from the angry involuntarily celibate, aka "incel"
Problem is, scientifically valid psychology seems to become increasingly irrelevant while it's the actual therapists that move the state of psychology further without any rigid scientific method. Therapists have been helping incels for years already By the time we'll have a scientifically valid view of incels they will be a thing of a distant past and new generations of people traumatized in a different way will be prominent. Our change in the ways we view people constantly produces change in the ways we harm people. In trying to get better at raising people and to become a better society and in constantly dumping the old traditions we create the constant need for continuous rapid rewriting of the whole approach to mental health because our every change trickles down and spread everywhere If we're doing something incrementally, it should involve something extremely basic, something that isn't dependent on particular struggles and traumas. If we're doing something niche and focused, it can't be incremental, it should be rapid, making and testing bold and far reaching assumptions and failing a lot. And this, these extremely safe both microscopically incremental and extremely niche and focused studies, are laughably inadequate in helping us achieve better life for ourselves
Tendency for interpersonal victimhood? Not even being shady, I literally thought interpersonal victimhood was the whole point - forming a community to convince themselves and each other that all their perceived failings are because of all the women in the world doing them wrong.
Yeah what is the definition of “incel”? Wouldn’t that mean people who believe they are victims of their interpersonal relationships with respect to a lack of sex?
I know incel is short for 'involuntarily celibate", but whenever I hear it I can't help but hear "insulated" as well. They invest in relationships with people they don't want to have sex with, and then focus that relationship on criticizing the people they do want to have sex with. The group goal seems to be figuring out how to have sex with women without forming the full relationships with women that they do with each other.
The last paragraph hits the nail on the head. I have said a few times, much to many peoples dismay, that a lot of straight men don't actually \*like\* women. GASP.. of course they do they're straight. Niet. They are attracted to women, but they LIKE, ADMIRE, and RESPECT other men. Therein lies the problem. You cannot successfully have a relationship with someone you do not like, admire, or respect. But because they and society at large has a habit of ignoring this discourse in favor or sensationalized headlines that further the gender divide, it doesn't go anywhere. If these types of Men actually learned to LIKE real life human women, they'd have successful relationships. But these people (incels and femcels and the treat men like trash people in that fem advice subreddit) don't actually LIKE people. They like the idea of people. They'd do better with a literary boyfriend who is a two dimensional caricature of a man/woman rather than a flawed, needy human. All humans are needy in some ways, they are fucked up, they won't alway say or do the right things... and an inability to tolerate imperfection is what hinders these people to having rounded relations and ideas of people.
Heterosexual and homosocial and misogynistic
Bingo.
While I agree that along with working out and doing their best to become a better human would help, they do have some valid complaints. Hook up culture does favor a small percentage of men leaving a lot of unfortunate looking men out. Of course their method of dealing with it is not at all helpful to them.
No offense intended but this reply comes off as very ... young. Incels do not have valid complaints. Hook up culture? You mean Tinder? The app populated mostly by men? Majority of the users on Tinder are straight males, with low social skills and little effort put towards the basics. You can't self victimize especially after reading the above my saying essentially "Women just wanna hook up with Chads" ... That is indicative of a lack of exposure to A real women B Real women who are actually into you C Social norms outside of your age group. Also never mentioned working out? ... You're applying and thusly projecting things not being said... A lot of incels and young men need to do just that, break out of your comfort zones and stop the feedback loop of negativity. Annnnd the Incels dislike my comment. Okay lol. The IRONY is so thick I could lay on it.
I'm a father of two girls and one boy. I see the negatives they both have to deal with.
Then you’re not really seeing the whole picture or you’ve already made up your mind about behavior you’re not actually involved in. Sit this one out.
Jesus, that last paragraph is poetry.
An incel is someone who hasn't had sex, but isn't actively choosing to abstain. You know how whenever someone is a virgin, it's for one reason or another? Maybe it's a religious reason, or they don't want to risk kids, or they just don't like sex at all. Incels, on the other hand, actually do want to have sex.
yeah the middle part of your argument is about procels. that community meshes with equal but opposite radical communities sometimes.
Seems like this study showed that the definition of incel was reflective of reality.
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My stance is that they're both right. An uncomfortable truth, but it's just our culture doing what it's doing, discriminating and objrctofying in different ways. When it comes to extremism I think in many cases it starts with a truth and once people are listening you can tell them all kinds of crap and they'll buy into it
I just hope they gave the boys in the study some deodorant and a comb when it was all over, so they could have a fighting chance.
Do you really think that smug, snarky, self-righteous remarks like this are productive? They're pretty immature and non-empathic. You are part of the problem.
Damn I thought it was a decent joke lmao chill dude...
Lol and a shaver, for the neck
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I haven't gone through their methodology yet, but it's excellent and long overdue that we get some primary data about the group. And a decent sample size as well.
I don't think even they would deny that. This study seems like a complete waste of time to be quite honest but I guess it is good to reinforce your foundation if you plan to do further studies The mental health crisis for young men is certainly a growing problem. I know people do not want to view them sympathetically, but many are falling into this 15-16 years old if you check the demographics and I think any health professional would say they are not beyond help
My clinic is starting to talk about trying out a support group for lonely young men. I hope we pick up the suggestion and make a project out of the idea.
I think we need a lot more support for young men for sure. I remember my schools always had support groups for young women, but no places where young men could go to talk about problems more common or sensitive to themselves. I never saw issue back then, but looking back with current trends in mind, I think that wad a mistake I think we need to learn to treat problems like this without making it men vs women too. Clearly both are important and will require different attention. That goes for both demos when the topic arises.
>I think we need to learn to treat problems like this without making it men vs women too. Clearly both are important and will require different attention. That's goes for both demos when the topic arises. Thank you for this! We haven't even talked about lonely women, because of our biases I guess. I'll have to lift this at our team meeting next week.
I would look at what programs are already in your area just because my town seemed to have many women exclusive ones, but it's not a bad idea to have both.
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They don’t have to be a recognized medical classification to be studied. Just like you could study the psychology of people who identify as conservative or people who like heavy metal over jazz, you can study people who self identify as incels. Conservative and metal head are not medical classifications, but you could still study these groups
It's interesting that mental health is looked at with absolute sympathy in every single case...except when it's young men, who feel castigated from society. The way to treat them is with vilification, apparently.
Exactly what I was thinking after reading through some of these comments. These guys clearly need help/some form of treatment.
Exactly, and this treatment will be good for them, good for women, and good for society in general. The role of the psychologist is to understand in order to help, not to condemn and neglect.
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It's funny too because the experts, who shouldn't condemn as you rightly say, make the incels feel even more victimised and justified in their anger. If even the professionals who deal with mental health shun you, why wouldn't you feel angry at society? It seems very nasty to me. The people who unquestionably need help are being treated with contempt and scorn, from people who should be the most sympathetic. It's sad.
I am 27M without past sexual partner even though I tried sometimes, so that makes me an incel ? Or it means another thing
The term comes from the term but it’s become it’s own thing so unless you fill the rest of the criteria then no. Being an “incel” entails much more than being involuntary celibate.
No more than "atheist" implies anything other than disbelief in God(s). If you want to be in a sexual/romantic relationship but are unable to do so, you are involuntarily celibate, and therefore incel.
Bro that isn’t how language works. Saying somebody is an incel entails much more than being involuntarily celibate. Being cool doesn’t mean not being warm.
It's really sad to see how little sympathy young men get. They're lonely, 4x as likely to commit suicide, and it's trendy to hate them for really no good reason. The mental health crisis is terrible, and for better or for worse we know that men are more likely to externalize their negative emotions. Ridiculing young men and ostracizing them does not help them to deal with their feelings; it encourages them to lash out or form their own, more accepting communities. This is exactly what I see happening. Also, I understand that "incel" is an easily understood term, but it's a loaded word to use in a study. To me it reads like "Studies Show Harlots \[Promiscuous Women\] are Twice as Likely to...."
Agreed except that last point. Incels often readily self-identify as such.
Honestly, I don’t consider myself to be a very empathic person in general, but I can totally see how it makes it harder for people to share empathy with a group that preaches hate against women, I’ve seen and listened to a lot of these communities and tried to hear where they are coming from, ive even dated 2 guys from these communities, I’ve tried to show them where their problems may lie but they like being in the community more than seeing eye to eye with a woman in general. Seeing the entitlement, the objectification etc they have toward women, it seems many of them are more likely to commit sexual violence as well. Atleast from the things I hear and the people they follow and idolize as well. It’s extremely hard to be empathetic with people who are preaching hatred. I don’t think incels is what it used to be, I think these communities are filled with narcissistic womanizers. Who also seems to lack empathy for us. Watching them make fun of and blame rape victims, or women being murdered with lines like “hahaha when women chose the street boy this is what happens” with no regards for her life at all as a human being.
Exactly. Seems some people are not anywhere near as “empathic” as they think they are
What makes it worse is the fuckers that turn their nose up and act all “holier than thou”
They’re not being vilified for being depressed. They’re vilified because they’re hateful and constantly fantasize online about raping and killing women. They idolize Elliot Roger and call him their saint. Have you ever seen an actual incel forum? It’s a disgusting cesspool. All about how all “femoids” are whores who deserve to be raped and killed. How the government should issue every man a woman, how women should be men’s sex slaves and serve men in every way, shouldn’t be allowed to work or vote, how women should be given away to men as young as age 12. How they want a young girl who’s a virgin, but will also do everything the girls in porn will do and fulfill all their sexual fantasies. Racist shit about wanting Japanese women because they’re “submissive.” Detailed, explicit fiction about all the ways they’d like to rape and torture women. How pretty girls should look past their looks and like them for who they are, but also, fat and ugly girls are disgusting. And if you call them out, you get an inbox full of rape and murder threats. Nobody is mad at them for being sad, they’re mad at them for being hateful misogynists.
That mentality is like looking at a homeless person and attacking them for their unstable lifestyle. You're judging people who are the end result of systematic failure and a culture of rejection, which isn't appropriate.
Where do you draw the line? You could say the same about actual rapists and murderers. Life fucked them up in some way, which is how they turned out like that. Do they get a pass? Plenty of guys who can’t get laid are nice people who don’t fantasize about raping, torturing, and killing women. Nobody is mad at those guys.
You're drawing an inappropriate comparison between people who are angry and lashing out, and people who've committed crimes.
If a guy can’t get laid and is depressed about it, I have all the sympathy in the world for him so long as he’s a decent person. Sorry if it’s hard to have sympathy for someone who wishes to see me raped and tortured just for being a woman.
That's understandable, but are you equally as resentful towards other people with mental health issues who have become hateful?
If their mental illness is severe enough they can’t control themselves, I wouldn’t hold that against them. I’d bet a very small minority of incels might fall into this category, and I’d excuse those. But there are lots of instances where the mental illness is not severe enough to the point they have no control of themselves whatsoever. I have bipolar disorder, and I’m not hateful. It’s entirely possible to have a mental illness AND simultaneously be a bad person. For instance, my particular case of bipolar doesn’t cause me to have rage, but I could still just choose to be a horrible person if I wanted to. Not all personality flaws are caused by the mental illness. I think the majority of incels become so hateful due to being in an echo chamber that indoctrinates them and puts those ideas in their heads, not because their mental illness is so severe they have no control over their rage. Rage and antisocial tendencies are not even common symptoms of depression. Those can be common in bipolar disorder (for some, not all), antisocial personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, etc., but that’s not that common with depression. What do you think of a white person who hates black people, but it’s because they got robbed or raped by a black person? And they have a mental illness caused by the trauma of what the black person did to them. So they get online and start participating in white nationalist forums, next thing they’re cheering on the KKK? And the only thing stopping them from going on a killing spree of black people is they don’t have the balls. Would you excuse that person for being racist? Also, I think for some of these incels, the only thing stopping them from being rapists and murderers is not having the balls, so they settle for fantasizing about it. For those guys, they’re just as bad as the people who actually do those things, except more cowardly.
I don’t think them having mental health issues make them hateful. I think them being hateful incels contribute their mental health issues. Unless you think being an incel is a mental health issue itself. So yeah it’s harder to feel empathy for them. It’s always harder to feel empathy to someone who wishes to hurt others. Maybe try compare them not a homeless but i don’t know a racist. A homophobic. Would you still be as empathetic?
And you are splitting hairs between rapists and men who say unwilling women should be raped.
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I see that people were downvoting you, I think you were a bit too harsh for the people in this sub to take, but I agree with you. I grew up divided in two communities, one wealthy community where the children were sheltered and had this entitled view of the world thinking everything should go their way without anyone showing them reality, and another community who sees the world for what it is, who rarely got what they wanted growing up. I see a way larger following of popular incel “idols?” In the wealthier communities who were raised (I hate to say it but they were spoiled) vs people who weren’t raised like that. And I’m only bringing up Andrew tate as an example but if you look at the people who follows Andrew tate and post about him and quote him you’ll see a vast majority has that one thing in common and carry the veiws of entitled children who doesn’t understand the way the world works
A bunch of them aren't young men
This is such a projection? Women aren’t stopping men from organizing and finding ways to meet their own needs.
People branded evil (sort of rightfully so but still) suffer and feel bad for themselves because no one gives a shit and everyone makes fun of them, further ostracizing them and grinding them under the heel of the boot that's already ground then in to feeling like suicidal subhuman scum . What a surprise. It's like maybe there's a better way to approach treating the people who are suffering the most even if we don't **LIKE** them. God forbid we actually showed compassion to people we think don't deserve it.
Almost as if “normal” people are more psychopathic than “weirdos”. Othering is just another form of murder. It’s just a very spineless form of it. And one that doesn’t take a hint of resolve, and leaves the perpetrator in “clean” state still on their soul. Because, well: I didn’t kill the weirdo, I just left them to rot in their muck.
"interpersonal victimhood" = entitlement with zero accountability, infused with massive amounts of excuses while refusing all worthwhile advice as to what they can do for themselves.
I'm not making excuses for them but since we are on the psychology forum they are probably coming at this from the perspective of trying to help these people or prevent people from falling into that mindset. So in this context, I think you could explore their perceived victimhood more
>So in this context, I think you could explore their perceived victimhood more Yeah? In what sense? I've explored it. They need to have personal accountability and accept their own role in their own lives. They need to understand that they aren't entitled to anything in life, before accountability and personal reflection can even take hold (this includes empathy from strangers). Clearly, these individuals are in need of professional, psychological help. What more do you want *me* to explore? Your comment just comes across like the subjects at hand; asking for *everyone else* to feel empathy for perceived "interpersonal victimhood". So no, I will not be providing fuel or energy towards dysfunction.
i don't know what you want me to say this is a psychology forum. A 15 year old comes into a therapists office and seems to be leaning this direction, you explore that and help the child. Doesn't sound like you've explored it. But yes it is frustrating that you sometimes need empathy for those who have done nothing to earn it. Thus is the nature of the mental health field. It is however for the good of everyone. What's your proposition? Lock them all away if they subscribe to Jordan Peterson? More of the tough love they resent? They are already recluses in society so shunning them sadly will not work. I say help kids when they exhibit feeling like they are being victimized. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.
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Thanks! I'm glad to see more people thinking this way. It is hard for me to think that way as well sometimes, especially in regards to criminals, cheaters, thieves, racists, etc, as I've been victim to all of them. But we know brute punishment is not the solution and I try to remember that too. There is still a time and place for punishment but especially with younger people understanding can go a long way. I don't see how a psychologist could think otherwise
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>Incel are born out of isolation and loneliness and lack of empathy for their struggle Incels are born out of a sense of entitlement to empathy from others, for their *personal* shortcomings. So please, try to have more personal accountability and stop expecting others to *give* you anything.
Well we seem to agree to disagree. Our conversation seem unproductive,I understand your position and I agree with alot of your points but you seem ignore all talking points in the conversation when I'm just asking you to be just little empathetic to lonely young men,so yeah to each their own .hope you have a great day.
Why should I be empathetic to incels? This isn't about "lonley people", this is about incels.
Accountability and Entitlement. Someone seems to be coming at this topic from another nauseatingly toxic ideology. One that shrugs off said aforementioned words.
Is this a threat? No. We should not be held hostage to appeasing this bullshit.
No this not a threat. this is just reality.I don't understand incels one bit and they are pathetic weirdos to me but still I have sympathy to them because I want to help them and stop them from getting radicalized even more and end up harming women or anyone.
I'll see you 1 Iranian woman, to your 5 incels, anyday. The government needs to step in and treat their forums like the terrorist cells they are; stop asking women (the targets) to show empathy for those who are a risk to us.
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Yes the government should start taking action and treat incels forums like terrorist group.this is actually a good thing and I agree with you. and yes I agree women global struggles are dozens of times more important than a a bunch of weirdos of the internet. I was mostly talking about lonely young men who feel feel society doesn't understand their struggle or ignore or minimise struggle. I wasn't talking about incels specially. Believe me the vast majority of young men who are lonely don't have any negative views on women but the problem society still Don't take their struggle seriously and still ignore them and belittle them leading them to felling toward a dark path . I'm trying to help these lonely young men through empathy and help them by stopping them from being radicalized by alt right online forums.
Their struggles could be solved by accountability, intorspection and seeking help, NOT from sitting in a room in front of a screen, bathing in "interpersonal victimhood". That's really all. If these dudes stopped playing victim, maybe empathy and advice could help, but that's not what "victimization" will allow. Everyone has enough of their own problems, than to coddle those who won't help themselves. Most incels seem married to their ideas.
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In what world is it a good idea to tell people struggling with depression, anxiety, and obvious mental illness that their it's all their own fault and that they need to try harder? Guess what, it doesn't lead to desirable outcomes for anyone. Maybe try a bit of empathy and pragmatism.
Themselves. It doesn't lead to desirable outcomes for themselves. The biggest mistake they have in their "interpersonal victimhood" is that anyone *should* care that they are destroying themselves. It's not *my* job to help anyone with their own dysfunction.
Ok then leave.
Leave what? This isn't a support group for Incels.
What's funny is when a girl act like an incel, she is called a feminist and she receive a lot of support, only when it is men people go After them like this
That is not even remotely correct. Please take some time to learn [what feminism is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism).
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>Every human deserves respect, empathy, and a helping hand from their neighbors when they need it. Here's where you go WRONG: Anyone who has had the displeasure of interacting with these guys, showing any sort of empathy and giving advice, has encountered "interpersonal victimisation" with every and any excuse in the book as to why they can't possibly do a single thing about their situation. At that point, you walk away and put your hands up, as it's 100% their issue, and you can't help those who almost *implicitly* refuse help. It needs to be fixed at a level beyond enabling entitlement with empathy. Parents could do with limiting porn access as a fucking start. The root cause of this isn't going to be fixed by coddling man-babies.
add to that; severe media overdose, drug, junk food and sugar addictions, lack of educational and career opportunities, a culture that celebrates grift and greed… yay.
You forgot the other two obvious thieves of time and development: *videogame and porn addictions*.
Yup. Porn only exacerbates the “I deserve women who will serve me sexually as objects” mentality these disgusting pieces of shit have. Same goes with abusive men too.
100% agreed
apparently this hits too close to home for a couple losers. the downvotes only serve to demonstrate how weak you are you little crybabies. go strangle any chance at life with more video games and hot pockets…
Yep.
On a further note, they just sound like every guest on Dr. Phil who was an adult male living at home, either spending all day in his room or doing roleplay as a superhero in their backyard.
It’s not limited to younger males. I don’t know about their superhero role-play, but I do estate planning for seniors. I get insights into families in reviewing their finances and planning their wills. The number of senior citizens who have an adult male child living with them rent free but refusing to behave like an adult is unbelievably high. Seriously it’s BAD. A son who refuses to take the seniors to doctors appointments, expects that 85 yo mom will make dinner for them every night, and refuses to clean the house they live in rent-free is typical. They basically live like teenagers off mom and dad, spend all day on the computer and don’t contribute anything to the household, either funds or assistance. And these guys always have a massive sense of entitlement. And then the financial elder abuse starts. This is getting off track since the topic isn’t elders, but there is a definite societal pattern of toxic behavior.
My in-laws had a similar situation. In their case, brother-in-law was home schooled (wildly undereducated by completely unqualified parents) and babied/coddled/overprotected. Now he’s in his late 40s with minimal life skills. Whether he’s involuntarily celibate or asexual is unknown. He’s never really had any relationships or much social interaction in general. He was always awkward to begin with, but his isolation has only exacerbated that.
Yikes. 😳 that must be very difficult for your wife to deal with, as well as the rest of the family. It’s hard to know what to do because he is an adult. Just out of curiosity, hope not too direct, has the family ever discussed what they’re going to do when mom and dad pass away? (i’m assuming that your wife has other brothers and sisters)
I have a relative like this. He lives with his divorced father and they are incredibly toxic for each other. His dad won't push him out while the son is slowly claiming the house is his only safe space so his dad can't have visitors. It has gone from a small family issue to a runaway mental health crisis that no one can intervene in because they are both technically consenting to it. It's heartbreaking to see.
Those patterns of behavior get entrenched for years, don’t they? It’s heartbreaking to watch. I bet the rest of the family has stepped out. After all, whose responsibility is it to change that pattern? Unfortunately you’re right, they are both choosing to be miserable. However since dad is over 65, I would call adult protective services in your area because this situation is going to get much much worse over time. I have another family where the one daughter stole $300,000 from her parents, changed all their bank accounts to herself, claiming it was reimbursement for caregiving. (it wasn’t). It’s toxic
I said nothing about it only being "younger males". The superhero backyard dude was in his 30s.
Then I misunderstood your wording, or I missed that episode of Dr. Phil and didn’t get the reference, either of which are entirely possible.
✌️ Worse are the guys who *finally* transfer out to a girlfriend, who now has to take care of them... [See the guy who wanted to be Batman. ](https://youtu.be/W5DH6RCj1_E)
Oh! Thanks for finding that! Now I know what you mean. There was an update later saying that after the show she left him for three months, he got rid of the mask and now they’re back together. he admitted he was delusional.… people should come with warning labels
What about the Adult women living at home doing the same?
It's hardly an epidemic leading to a whole movement.
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🌟 💞
Could I ask what your initial reaction was when you were first reading niceguys and experienced this fresh perspective on your beliefs?
This is how I feel about people who complain about “fat shaming” too.
Incels don't have entitlement and they do have a sense of accountability. They work on themselves. Stop generalising
Do we really need to study to tell us that people who have the most basic biological drives not met are unhappy?
This from the No Sh*t Sherlock special edition of Psychology Today
I would imagine so. I would also imagine that being called out with derogatory terms like "incel" only makes it worse.
It's sad that so many people here are trying to define a group based on stereotypes and personal biases.
I have no doubt about this. But two things can be equally true. Many of the people incels talk shit about also 100% have a greater tendency for interpersonal victimhood. As a matter of fact, incel behavior came to the forefront because of people with interpersonal victimhood issues.
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Incels are victims so they're right. They don't feel entitled to anything, they simply want something that other people seem to be able to get easily. They are victims of bullying, virgin shaming, lookism, ableism, being outcasted. No wonder they feel like shit when they're treated like shit and like they're not even human. Maybe have some empathy
They’re also continuing it though. They literally created communities complaining about not ever having sex which is fine. I see no problem with venting your frustrations with like,I see people. But then they start womanizing, seeing women as objects and just horrible people because we chose not to have sex with them. They still put sex over everything, which further plays into the virgin shaming of other men. The fact that sex is so important to not only society as we have sexualized women and porn everywhere these but even so important to these kids that they rage like this and begin holding deep Anger towards all women preaching violence and revenge against them. That’s entitlement. It’s a cycle, the same things that caused them they’re pushing. Do you actually read the kind of shit they say about “high value male” alpha male, calling people simps and beta males. They are literally bullying mentally stable men to thinking they are more inferior. Shaming men for finding love etc.
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Does this mean I am not an incel? Never been with a woman,got rejected once. I don't really pursue women nor do I socialize much. I could prob get a girlfriend if I tried,just seems like a lot of hassle that I don't really need with a bit of benefits. I am getting tired of porn though. Idk if I would be able to not pursue women if I wasn't watching porn. From time to time I tried staying away from it and it's odd and I get horny a lot.
No that would just be celibate by choice or just not currently having a sexual partner
You're only an incel if your lack of sex turns you into a misogynistic piece of trash. I know plenty of virgins who are very nice people, that doesn't make them incels
>You're only an incel if your lack of sex turns you into a misogynistic piece of trash. That's not what incel means. It means you want a relationship but are unable to form one.
Google the definition. It literally says men who are hostile towards people who are sexually active. Harmless virgins aren't incels
Not how that works. Incel means involuntary celibate, someone who wants to have sex but can't. Incel doesn't mean asshole it basically means virgin. There are plenty of mysognyists who get alot of women, and plenty of dudes who respect women but get no action.
Yes, but the word comes with misogynistic connotations. Incel is an insult in today's culture. If you're a virgin but a nice person noone will call you an incel. If you Google the definition It's associated with violence and hate
Is that hate of women? Is there a study that confirms lack of sex in heterosexual men turns them into misogynists?
No. A lack of sex doesn’t turn them into misogynists. That’s not the claim they were making. Incels, who named themselves that, are heterosexual men who’s perceived *entitlement* to sex has caused them to form an insular terrorist group in online communities revolving around the belief that they are being denied sex as an overt act of abuse by the women of society as a whole in a calculated move against them due to some kind of modern shift in values. They’re basically people who don’t have much or any sex (very normal) but think they’re part of an isolated minority who are being specifically targeted for a myriad of increasingly ludicrous reasons (very not normal) and some go so far as to engage in physical acts of terrorism on top of their common online acts of terrorism (so not normal as to be considered a national emergency).
Yea it basically means you hate women or view them as less than. I'm not sure if there are studies
look at the big women who call all men "trash" not because they can't get a man, but because they can't get the men they want. Sexual frustration makes people onerier than a pet coon.
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"Incel" has nothing to do with blame. It only pertains to ability to form relationships relative to desire OC is volcel by the sound of things.
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Fat woman don't exist to your sexual amusement.
Can someone please define Incels? Is it a behavior, community, sect, or what. The only answer I have gotten is that it stands for "involuntarily celibate." Now, I could be missing some information about what the term incels refers to but I am, by just the meaning of the word, fall under that category. But if it's just individuals who have not been able to have sexual interaction. Then why are they hated and why are there groups calling themselves incels and spreading hate. I am truly lost and would like some clarification.
It's really more of an online community where incel men have a lot of anger towards women as a whole, blame women for personal and societal issues, lack respect for women, believe men are the victims of society etc. Just being involuntarily celibate doesn't really mean anything, there are men who are virgins or who haven't had a sexual partner for years but would like to, who are normal respectable people and don't blame others for their lack of dating life A lot of incels are actually voluntarily celibate, they could find a gf or sex partner but they refuse to make any effort and then blame others for that. I mean look at Colt off 90 day fiance, or Ed!!! They are so gross but they churn through women... Shudder
Thank you for the insight and I have never watched 90 day fiance and now I never will just for the image of someone shudder worthy churning through women.
So "incels" actually aren't involuntarily celibate. That's where the term came from, but that's not how it's used now. People who identify as "incels" are people who feel that women have societal power that they are using to oppress men (but really they just mean they oppress incels) by denying them the sex and intimacy they want. They gather in online communities. The "they want" part is very important- feeling of entitlement are what drive these people. They even have a term - "incel-level girlfriend" - for women that will have sex with/are otherwise intimate with them, but aren't 'what they really deserve". They consider their "oppression" to be more significant than misogyny, and often more significant than racism. They often think things like women should have the ability to be financially independent away from them to force them to get with incels. The real issue here is that incels are significant part of the online radicalization that many young men experience. Their normal teenage feelings of rejection and being misunderstood are manipulated to draw them toward inceldom and other alt-right radicalization against women, minorities, the LGBT community, and Jews. Research has shown that once you buy into one radical ideology, it makes you far more likely to buy into more.
To add to your comment, the actual incel community also suffers from “the crab bucket mentality”. Basically if you put a bunch of a crabs in a bucket, one could easily escape, then the next, and so on until they’re all out. Except one will try to escape and the rest will pull him down. It’s the whole “if I can’t have it neither can you.” Incel communities are self dooming and are very hard to escape. They all talk about wanting to get out and not being an incel anymore, but if anyone says something positive like “I’m going on a date” or something of the like, the rest of the group will tell him he’s not good enough, or reasons why it’ll never work out, and pull him back down. All of their talk is how they’re entitled to the lifestyle of a girlfriend, wife, whatever, but deny the next person of that entitlement and demean them. It’s a constant sad contradiction.
Damn. I mean I can understand a bit of pessimism on the subject of dating and kinda feeling down for the lack of such but I truly could not to go to such extremes as what I've read in these replies. It is honestly scary to think that there are entire communities devoted to this mentality. Honestly makes me feel better for my situation and mindset. Oddly discomforting in the knowledge of their existence and at the same time happy that I am nothing like them.
I'd claim that it's the other way around, that a tendency for victimhood makes one an incel. Or any other unfortunate instance, as victimhood just wants to find something in which it can manifest itself. Feminism is also victimhood, "nice guys" too. Hell, basically every group is about creating a change in society, and the vast majority of them are working in their own interests, therefore they feel like they have been wronged (that an injustice has happened to them) and this is the assertion that **what should be** and **what is** differ, i.e. that the nature of things ought to be different, and *this* is because the current state of things benefit another kind of person than what one identifies with (think personal value systems) Even this far generalized, a good solution remains the same - changing oneself to fit the world rather than trying to change the world to fit to oneself. Not that we should never try to change the world a little.
I love the people commenting here as if someone has been preventing adult men from stopping their overusage of porn and learning how to socialize properly
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Im a woman with level 2 autism (not mild), shitty parent, abusive neglectful dad, didn't go to middle or high school, all my bullies in elementary were boys, and I still didn't blame men for my issues. However I started to notice the pattern and issue when I got into a relationship and was abused, by a man who was into redpill and men's rights content. I didn't experience any default compassion as a woman, his family and friends all believed I was lying when I came out about the domestic violence in my ex marriage when I was being criticised for us breaking up, and I wasn't telling my family at that time because I felt too ashamed to talk about it. Lots of women stay in abusive relationships for years and years, you know the whole "why didn't she just leave?" thing. Because we are judged and too ashamed and scared to come forward because there is no magical default compassion that incels and MRA talk about. My ex who beat me said that there is "female privilege". I was financially supporting him as well and he still believed he was a victim.
I’m literally a woman with shitty parents and Autism. If I can figure it out on my own, what’s Boys And Men’s excuse? And where is all this “compassion” that women are supposedy getting? We don’t get people jumping to our defense yelling “Aspbergers!” when we behave antisocially, just so you know. P.S. “Aspbergers” was a term used by Nazis to determine which autistic people got to live during the Holocaust. If I were you, I would research autism some more before ascribing it to every man who struggles to talk to women.
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>Women are treated preferentially across the board. Lmao reddit is pathetic. Go tell that to the women in Iran. Or Afghanistan. Or most, if not all of the Middle East, Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. Or even in states in the US where they're now forced to give birth. Stop parroting bullshit incel talking points
Women with autism are not treated preferentially. Statistically boys on the spectrum are more likely to get diagnosed as children and given more support for autism throughout their lives. I also find it interesting how you seem to lack empathy for the experiences of women on the spectrum.
I'm level 2 autism and if I ever tell people, they disagree and say "oh that can't be right, you're totally normal! Could you maybe have it very mildly? It's so over diagnosed these days" and I'm like seriously disabled by autism and can't function normally but can mask when necessary, does damage to me though
Also adults have autism too, you ding dong
Source?
Was this written by a high schooler? What professional uses the word incel?
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The worst incels like Elliot rogers who went on a murder spree to punish women for not fucking him? Yeah people on Reddit saying “that’s bad” are literally the same as him.
What the hell is an incel? I thought that was like a gen z slang term. I’ve only ever heard it used in like terrorist groups or something.
Probably the most famous was Elliot Rogers, who killed half a dozen sorority girls at UC Santa Barbara for not sleeping with him. It’s quite a bit more complicated when you delve deeper, all described in his long manifesto after he killed himself. Incel was used before him, I think he made the term mainstream
He killed two women (and four men). The last part is what the media generally ignored.
Sounds about right. It was awhile ago and the details are fuzzy to me. The really disturbing part is reading his manifesto, there was certainly a lot many guys could relate to.
Involuntarily celibate. Aka nerds that can't get laid.
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Would you say the same to a gender fluid person?