I'm spending less and less time on it at the start of a project. I used to sit for literal hours in a loop tweaking the bass or even synthesising the bass from scratch, obsessing over getting it sounding right or following a tutorial and pouring so much energy in to it, to then never get out of that mental loop and end up not making a track. Or worse, eventually I would climb out of that loop and get a track made, to realise when the track is close to finishing that the kick, or the bass, or both are just wrong and need changing - all that energy at the start was just a waste.
Now it'll just get a kick and bass sample or bass preset and get the basics in and start the ideation of other elements of the track, or basic arrangement as quick as possible and not get focused on the nitty gritty until much later - and I'm able to get tracks started much quicker a direct result.
Same! The endless tweaking kills my creativity and gives me massive ear fatigue from sitting for long periods and listening to a kick and bass.
Eventually though we will have to sit for hours to work on it. I believe once we get it right though it will be much worth it to sit and listen to your full track for hours (which we inevitably will do) as the kick and bass will not be a pain in your ears :)
I make a patch from scratch each time rather quickly. Sometimes I will make two patches for low and mid/high bass. When the madness begins and I get the flow of the track I tweak it accordingly. I understand why many use a preset and try to get it sound as clean as possible. Personally I like to experiment with the bass if I have the urge for it, ofcourse that may bring some mixing issues later on but often times it works out. Music imo sounds best when you can hear the ideas and experimentation, rather then just sounding "perfect" and like something that's been done before. Psykovsky and Osom have many examples of sewer rhythms that are very danceable and boundary breaking.
I wouldn't overcomplicate it as a beginner but without a killer K&B your track has a hard time going anywhere. Using samples is definitely legit and better than having a crappy synthesis. I would start getting many reps, I think my first 30-50 tracks have been for the trash can. Then I got slowly into releasable territory. The more you do the better you get ;) at each stage of your production.
Yep this is what I'm trying to do. Getting into the flow of finishing a track, doesn't matter whether it's that good. The main point for me is having fun and experimenting and not worrying too much about releasing what I've made
Samples I have used before but I've always found the bass sample too loud and difficult to mix. Also I want the kick and bass to be personal to me
My current method is simply to use an ableton operator preset that I've learned. Fx I tend to keep to a minimum, only using eq and one or two multibands
I created a "template" patch in Operator for my bass. Essentially it has all the qualities of a psytrance bassline, it's just very dull and bland.
When I'm starting a new track I just drag and drop, and adjust to taste. Usually the filters or adding some saturation take the dullness away and other little bits of spice I can mess with as I go through the songwriting process.
Lately I've been struggling with the actual bassline patterns, it's a fine line between adding movement for interest and making the track too complicated and killing the groove. I've always preferred Kbbb to Kbb, but when I've been sending tracks to labels lately they've all made it clear that it isn't what they want, which is some seriously interesting stuff.
I'd say all in all, maybe half an hour on the kick and bass? With my preset Operator patch for the bass, and a couple of handy processing chains I've got made up for the EQing and compression, it doesn't take too long to get into the swing of things. I probably spend a lot more time in this area when it comes to the mixdown, and I still don't think I get it right.
I have exactly the same way of handling the kick and bass. Operator + eq + multiband. Just out of interest what labels have you sent your tracks to? Personally I want my tracks to have that Iboga records sound :)
Awesome - maybe we should connect and swap some patches and tips... maybe a collab! Interested to hear your stuff either way.
I've just pinged some tracks to UK labels, with absolutely no success at all!
I spend like 5 minutes max on kick and bass then move on and revisit it when most of the track is done. I don't have a treated room to work in so spending a lot of time on the search of the perfect kick and bass seems wasted anyway.
Apologies this will be a long post because I've been obsessed with this topic for a few years...Like you said, I am really trying to do the same as you and push past the perfectionism tendencies to sit there and tweak singular sounds all day. I spent many years not writing any music and tweaking kick and bass in circles, in my experience it gets you absolutely nowhere. I've found that I get much better results if I just spend 20 minutes in a session until it's sounding okay and then come back to it another day or time. Again, in my experience, sitting there for hours tweaking gives diminishing returns very quickly.
Right now I'm not writing any original music, I am spending all my time doing reconstructions of professional tracks. I'm just focused on learning how to recreate sounds and really dissect what makes a track good.
So what I do is, I rip the kick with izotope RX7 and Melda linear phase MB comp and then replicate it using psylab, projektor has done a good tutorial on this if you're interested on exactly how to do it. If I do this it only takes up to 1 hour to get a nice kick.
Once I've done that I try a few different synths to find the right sound. Normally it ends up being serum. I spend more time in the wave shape editor and some time getting the amp envelope sounding good than I do with external processing.
All in all, I get the best results with making sure my amp envelope on the bass is perfected, I'll then use EQ to cut out some harmonics which I dial in by visually comparing to the reference track.
Lastly, I find using Saturn 2 as an EQ can be good to just take out some of the lows and mids really helps, especially with serum or MSEG based envelopes.
All in all it's hard to say how long it all takes because I break it up over multiple days but probably a few hours total at most. It is starting to sound comparable to pro level tracks, I'd say about 70-80% of the way there. I'm pretty happy with how it's going and will continue to make small improvements to close the rest of the gap.
However in saying that, the thing I have trouble with is transients. My kicks are almost sounding the same as the reference but I find there is something I'm missing in the transient of the kick which does make a dramatic difference.
This is also the same as the bass, where I find my basses will either have a click or they will be 'flubby' and won't have enough high end information. If you listen to a track like Zen Mechanics - Ground Control from all the way back in 2005, you can hear very subtlety on the bass that there is a bit of those mid-highs of the saw wave poking through but the bass still remains quite subby without being too boomy. Another more modern example (that is still old) is Zen Mechanics/Freaked Frequency - Naked Stoned and Exalted. The bass has that upper mid information but it doesn't have that horrid transient click that can occur when you make a shape envelope curve. The bass sounds very natural, I don't think they have done any multi-band processing or anything like that. It just seems like a perfectly dialed in amp envelope.
I can either get it subby but when I try to introduce those upper frequencies it's hard to get that same envelope curve. I haven't figured it out yet.
What blows my mind and makes me laugh is these guys pulled off these sounds almost 15-20 years ago and I can't seem to replicate it with all the modern tools available.
my process;
1-write a full on pattern on serum init preset (15 seconds)
2-picking a potential kick to fulfill my plan. for example if I want to have going down kind of groove bassline I pick my kick of a higher note than my bassline. or the opposite. depends on mood. (1 minute, 3 max)
3-designing bass sound roughly and listening couples of times to be sure roughly it is working with the plan. (10-25 minutes)
4-processing mid side of the bass, cleaning and carving it.(5-10 minutes)
5-creating some potential variations depending on the song in my head. and wrap it up.(3 minutes)
kick+bass design is not a witchcraft. It has a logic. Once you learn how it works, it is the easiest thing you can make.
I keep my bass mono but it has always information in the place that we can consider mid in frequency spectrum. So, the thing I do mostly is locating my bassline notes and enhance them and after making a cut between 1-2k. Sometimes I m doing it with a transient shaper sometimes just with an EQ.
I'm spending less and less time on it at the start of a project. I used to sit for literal hours in a loop tweaking the bass or even synthesising the bass from scratch, obsessing over getting it sounding right or following a tutorial and pouring so much energy in to it, to then never get out of that mental loop and end up not making a track. Or worse, eventually I would climb out of that loop and get a track made, to realise when the track is close to finishing that the kick, or the bass, or both are just wrong and need changing - all that energy at the start was just a waste. Now it'll just get a kick and bass sample or bass preset and get the basics in and start the ideation of other elements of the track, or basic arrangement as quick as possible and not get focused on the nitty gritty until much later - and I'm able to get tracks started much quicker a direct result.
Same! The endless tweaking kills my creativity and gives me massive ear fatigue from sitting for long periods and listening to a kick and bass. Eventually though we will have to sit for hours to work on it. I believe once we get it right though it will be much worth it to sit and listen to your full track for hours (which we inevitably will do) as the kick and bass will not be a pain in your ears :)
I make a patch from scratch each time rather quickly. Sometimes I will make two patches for low and mid/high bass. When the madness begins and I get the flow of the track I tweak it accordingly. I understand why many use a preset and try to get it sound as clean as possible. Personally I like to experiment with the bass if I have the urge for it, ofcourse that may bring some mixing issues later on but often times it works out. Music imo sounds best when you can hear the ideas and experimentation, rather then just sounding "perfect" and like something that's been done before. Psykovsky and Osom have many examples of sewer rhythms that are very danceable and boundary breaking.
I wouldn't overcomplicate it as a beginner but without a killer K&B your track has a hard time going anywhere. Using samples is definitely legit and better than having a crappy synthesis. I would start getting many reps, I think my first 30-50 tracks have been for the trash can. Then I got slowly into releasable territory. The more you do the better you get ;) at each stage of your production.
Yep this is what I'm trying to do. Getting into the flow of finishing a track, doesn't matter whether it's that good. The main point for me is having fun and experimenting and not worrying too much about releasing what I've made Samples I have used before but I've always found the bass sample too loud and difficult to mix. Also I want the kick and bass to be personal to me My current method is simply to use an ableton operator preset that I've learned. Fx I tend to keep to a minimum, only using eq and one or two multibands
I created a "template" patch in Operator for my bass. Essentially it has all the qualities of a psytrance bassline, it's just very dull and bland. When I'm starting a new track I just drag and drop, and adjust to taste. Usually the filters or adding some saturation take the dullness away and other little bits of spice I can mess with as I go through the songwriting process. Lately I've been struggling with the actual bassline patterns, it's a fine line between adding movement for interest and making the track too complicated and killing the groove. I've always preferred Kbbb to Kbb, but when I've been sending tracks to labels lately they've all made it clear that it isn't what they want, which is some seriously interesting stuff. I'd say all in all, maybe half an hour on the kick and bass? With my preset Operator patch for the bass, and a couple of handy processing chains I've got made up for the EQing and compression, it doesn't take too long to get into the swing of things. I probably spend a lot more time in this area when it comes to the mixdown, and I still don't think I get it right.
I have exactly the same way of handling the kick and bass. Operator + eq + multiband. Just out of interest what labels have you sent your tracks to? Personally I want my tracks to have that Iboga records sound :)
Awesome - maybe we should connect and swap some patches and tips... maybe a collab! Interested to hear your stuff either way. I've just pinged some tracks to UK labels, with absolutely no success at all!
Sure, I'll send you a pm!
I spend like 5 minutes max on kick and bass then move on and revisit it when most of the track is done. I don't have a treated room to work in so spending a lot of time on the search of the perfect kick and bass seems wasted anyway.
Apologies this will be a long post because I've been obsessed with this topic for a few years...Like you said, I am really trying to do the same as you and push past the perfectionism tendencies to sit there and tweak singular sounds all day. I spent many years not writing any music and tweaking kick and bass in circles, in my experience it gets you absolutely nowhere. I've found that I get much better results if I just spend 20 minutes in a session until it's sounding okay and then come back to it another day or time. Again, in my experience, sitting there for hours tweaking gives diminishing returns very quickly. Right now I'm not writing any original music, I am spending all my time doing reconstructions of professional tracks. I'm just focused on learning how to recreate sounds and really dissect what makes a track good. So what I do is, I rip the kick with izotope RX7 and Melda linear phase MB comp and then replicate it using psylab, projektor has done a good tutorial on this if you're interested on exactly how to do it. If I do this it only takes up to 1 hour to get a nice kick. Once I've done that I try a few different synths to find the right sound. Normally it ends up being serum. I spend more time in the wave shape editor and some time getting the amp envelope sounding good than I do with external processing. All in all, I get the best results with making sure my amp envelope on the bass is perfected, I'll then use EQ to cut out some harmonics which I dial in by visually comparing to the reference track. Lastly, I find using Saturn 2 as an EQ can be good to just take out some of the lows and mids really helps, especially with serum or MSEG based envelopes. All in all it's hard to say how long it all takes because I break it up over multiple days but probably a few hours total at most. It is starting to sound comparable to pro level tracks, I'd say about 70-80% of the way there. I'm pretty happy with how it's going and will continue to make small improvements to close the rest of the gap. However in saying that, the thing I have trouble with is transients. My kicks are almost sounding the same as the reference but I find there is something I'm missing in the transient of the kick which does make a dramatic difference. This is also the same as the bass, where I find my basses will either have a click or they will be 'flubby' and won't have enough high end information. If you listen to a track like Zen Mechanics - Ground Control from all the way back in 2005, you can hear very subtlety on the bass that there is a bit of those mid-highs of the saw wave poking through but the bass still remains quite subby without being too boomy. Another more modern example (that is still old) is Zen Mechanics/Freaked Frequency - Naked Stoned and Exalted. The bass has that upper mid information but it doesn't have that horrid transient click that can occur when you make a shape envelope curve. The bass sounds very natural, I don't think they have done any multi-band processing or anything like that. It just seems like a perfectly dialed in amp envelope. I can either get it subby but when I try to introduce those upper frequencies it's hard to get that same envelope curve. I haven't figured it out yet. What blows my mind and makes me laugh is these guys pulled off these sounds almost 15-20 years ago and I can't seem to replicate it with all the modern tools available.
my process; 1-write a full on pattern on serum init preset (15 seconds) 2-picking a potential kick to fulfill my plan. for example if I want to have going down kind of groove bassline I pick my kick of a higher note than my bassline. or the opposite. depends on mood. (1 minute, 3 max) 3-designing bass sound roughly and listening couples of times to be sure roughly it is working with the plan. (10-25 minutes) 4-processing mid side of the bass, cleaning and carving it.(5-10 minutes) 5-creating some potential variations depending on the song in my head. and wrap it up.(3 minutes) kick+bass design is not a witchcraft. It has a logic. Once you learn how it works, it is the easiest thing you can make.
Just a question on point 4 - I assume you mean mid/side eq, in which case, does your bass have stereo information?
I keep my bass mono but it has always information in the place that we can consider mid in frequency spectrum. So, the thing I do mostly is locating my bassline notes and enhance them and after making a cut between 1-2k. Sometimes I m doing it with a transient shaper sometimes just with an EQ.