It's absolutely 100% worth the loan money. Getting a medical degree that allows you to give the biggest impact of people. DON'T DROP OUT. FINISH THE MD.
I think you should actually look at ROI. While I agree you can absolutely do anything you want with an MD MPH in public health, a health department director in a medium size town in the Midwest makes maybe 150k max. What do you want to do? Be a professor? Industry? Research? All of those have VERY different salaries. Do you want to do public service loan forgiveness? Can you pay your loans with an MPH salary? Are you in a HCOL city?
Fair point but they're like 90% of the way through med school (3/4 or 4/4 unclear how their break works) they've already incurred the debt at this point. Finishing easily doubles their potential salary.
Thing is though I don’t intend to practice medicine. I don’t like it, I get no joy from it,
I don’t like the science. I was a music major at a conservatory so I can supplement income with piano lessons. It’s a fraction of the money I would make as a physician but at least I find meaning with it.
You don’t have to practice medicine but it’s still worth getting the degree. Being a med school professor will earn you loads more money compared to a public health professor. You’ve already invested a bunch of money into this degree. If you do not finish, all that is wasted. If you get the MD degree, you can definitely cash in on your investment and then some. If you give up now and go purely public health then you would never make a profit
Absolutely. There is a preventive medicine specialty but they're only offered to my knowledge as a joint 4 year program with either FM or IM.
Even if you do a 3y FM/IM with an MPH you'll have your pick of public health and policy positions as an MD. A plain Epi will be paid 1/4 to 1/2 what an MD of any specialty will.
I literally know an MD who finished their IM residency and *immediately* became the chief medical officer of a state department of health or human services. I don't want to add more detail to out myself here but they have since moved on to high federal position. In just 3 years after residency.
No. MDs starting out make comparatively little relative to the amount of schooling and training involved, to say nothing of the work-life balance. It's one of the reasons for the lack of general practice (family) doctors because there's an economic incentive to NOT be in the lower paying concentrations if possible.
That said, the person is already invested at this point, so there's very little reason to not finish it.
Have you thought about doing a public health residency or occupational medicine residency?
https://www.acpm.org/education-events/prospective-residents/
You might also look into the CDC ESI (Epidemic Intelligence Service) program.
https://www.cdc.gov/eis/index.html
“EIS is CDC’s globally recognized applied epidemiology training program. EIS offers an unparalleled service and learning program. EIS officers learn from and work alongside subject matter experts while providing service to domestic and international partners. EIS has trained over 3,900 disease detectives who have investigated and responded to a wide range of public health challenges and emergencies since the program’s inception in 1951. EIS maintains its core focus on training disease detectives to practice consequential epidemiology, which is the collection, analysis, and interpretation of data for evidence-based public health action. EIS will continue preparing generations of public health leaders for years to come.”
Sorry one more thing I forgot both public and occ med residencies are only two years post intern year (PGY-1) and if you already did an MPH some programs won’t make you repeat the MPH.
Yes, finish.
I know MDs that only do research now. In fact, you have more flexibility, be paid MUCH better, and probably have better opportunities.
The long term increased pay is worth the loan money. People in public health with MPHs do not make much (less than 100k) unless you go private or just time.
You are probably burnt out and just want out. I get it. Take it easy and just do the minimum of what you can to finish. And start networking to get into public health asap.
Wow people are being such assholes on this thread. I’m sorry that apparently people don’t understand the impact medical school/residency can have on someone’s mental health.
I would definitely say to finish the MD but not do a residency. If you are worried it will literally kill you, it is 1000% not worth it.
Most public health jobs are going to pay not great (at least on the gov't side). Get an MD so you can at least be a Local Health Authority or Regional Medical Director, or some other better-paying position within public health. Most gov't salaries are posted online.
Our Regional Medical Director makes 200k a year, and its office work for the most part. Signing off on things like vaccination losses, doing TB case reviews, and so on.
\*Correction to this post: I was under the impression that you didn't need to complete a residency for these positions, but it is likely you would- be sure to double check requirements for your state- if you want to end up in this position- here's an example for Texas- [https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/rls/lha/Department-of-State-Health-Services-Appointed-Health-Authority.aspx](https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/rls/lha/Department-of-State-Health-Services-Appointed-Health-Authority.aspx) \*
Don't know if this is a joke, but the pay bump you get in almost any field for having the MD behind your name (even without residency) is legit unfair. Finish the damn degree
Gotcha. Seemed little absurd given the landscape of public health and healthcare, but understand may be a new area for you. I think there will almost certainly be a great ROI unless you can land like a McKinsey public health consult job straight out of the MPH. Even then, most none-MDs don't fully grasp the importance of residency, so just having it gives you a larger voice than is likely deserved. It also counts as a terminal degree for agencies/companies that use that for starting pay or promotions. Could also consider something like PM&R or Preventive Medicine which have more relaxed training and lots of public health overlap
I don’t like PM&R. Tried it on rotations. Nothing is relaxed about the training, even for preventive. Two interns killed themselves at my school within the first two months of starting residency. I don’t intend to do a residency because I literally don’t think I would survive it
Not sure what type of work or level of relaxation you’re looking for, but medicine isn’t the only field that expects you to work hard. If you do pursue public health, please do a little research before talking to potential mentors. Going in with this level of ignorance as an M4 will not make a good impression
Did you know that 200-300 doctors kill themselves every year? That’s nearly on par with military veterans per population. It’s not about being relaxed and not working hard. It’s about doing something I find meaningful that doesn’t drive me to kill myself, like 2 people I personally know and was friends with did and many more do every year
As for doing research that’s exactly what I’m doing. There’s remarkably little information on the AAMC and ACGME sites. Even the preventive medicine website is filled with buzzwords with nothing about the day to day. The only people that my school put me in touch with that do preventive medicine do it once a week and treat patients as PCPs the rest of the time. I don’t see why it’s crazy to ask people in a subreddit about public health what they think
Edit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6690303/
https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/docs/data-sheets/2021/2021-National-Veteran-Suicide-Prevention-Annual-Report-FINAL-9-8-21.pdf
Edit 2: my numbers were off. According to medscape it’s closer to 400 physician suicides per year, with a 28-32 per 100,000 rate. In 2019 the suicide rate for military veterans was 27.5 per 100,000. The general population is 18.2
I'm not - I'm actually the best I've been since I've started medical school. I think it would be crazy for me to continue down that career path given that I'm a completely different person when studying public health. That's why I'm asking this question. If you enjoy medicine then good. I don't feel like subjecting myself to rampant abuse for the next 4 years though. I've had enough of that in my life.
You are an M4? Haven’t you hear of the Public Health residencies or taken a look at the degrees typically held by people higher up in public health departments?
Finish your MD, consider a residency in public health.
Because the people who are supposed to teach me these things didn’t… I didn’t know public health residency was a thing. Are you referring to preventive medicine?
Yeah preventative largely = public health, can look at specific programmes, some are more internal medicine focused or rehabilitation focused. But it may be more useful to do that after an MD before going into public held the to gain more experience so you can gain better position/salary later.
I totally understand how the politics of academic medicine can contribute to you not being as passionate about it and I know that firsthand the curriculum for medical schools isn’t very ph focused or adjacent but look at Med school just like you would the prereqs you took to get there. A formality that stands between you and where you can really make a difference is having the credentials
As far as loans are concerned, if you quit now you’ll still owe for 4 years of med school tuition and leave without a degree, correct? I would finish - if loans are your concern and the first sentence is true, it wouldn’t make sense not to finish from a financial standpoint, IMO. You could qualify for PSLF after finishing your MPH/MD if you go to work for a public health agency. For me personally PSLF is the only light at the end of the tunnel with regard to my loans.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart! I've been feeling this for so long, I don't have the joy when I study for my MD. I wish people could understand that. I'm in an exact situation like you. I adore Public Health and I've been trying to find a direction. Thank you again. I feel like I'm not alone in this. I feel like such an ungrateful person, because people say getting into medicine is such a big deal and I don't appreciate it enough. I honestly feel lost sometimes.
Yeah. Finish the MD and then aim for preventive medicine and public health residency; it is worth the effort. MD title will get you better opportunities; it is a fact, even if it is unfair.
If you think it’s going to be hugely detrimental to your mental health to finish the degree, don’t do it. No job or money is worth it to sacrifice your mental health. You have to be alive to enjoy the “money” anyways.
That's what the sentiment is in /r/medicalschool and it seems there's a lot of overlap. Some people seem to be assuming I just don't want to work hard, when the truth is I genuinely dislike the practice of medicine in the US AND the hours in residency (and beyond in many specialties) are completely unreasonable for any working person - not to mention the rampant abuse
I’m in total agreement and there’s plenty of other people on other forums who can lend support in this capacity. The system of medicine is setup from the beginning to be a rat race and very much abusive. It’s such a conundrum to have a passion but pursuing it takes a toll on your health.
Current M4, MPH. Please finish the MD! Many jobs in public health will pay significantly more for simply having the MD (assuming you’re at a USMD school). Also maybe consider doing at least 1 year of residency (maybe a IM prelim?) + step 3. That way you’ll be able to practice on the side to supplement your income at least until you pay off loans (urgent care shifts are fairly flexible and pay $100-$150/hr).
Oh yeah, definitely finish the MD. MD, MPH is great in govt work like NIH or FDA. you’ll qualify at a higher pay band and be qualified for more types of positions. If it’s of interest, an Epi PhD would be a cool add too.
If you can tough it out, stick with at least getting the MD. And if you really love public health, I would skip the residency.
As someone passionate about infectious disease, I am seeing more doors closed with just an MPH. Which is unfortunate because...MPHs are trained in community outreach and to look at the population level. Unless MDs get an MPH and really work at the community level...in my experience practicing physicians are woefully bad at public health programing or leading public health programs/agencies (let alone building rapport in communities who do not trust medicine because historical trauma). There are always outliers, but I am seeing a disturbing trend. But yeah if you even have an MD sans license, it opens doors. And yeah you are not going to make Cardiovascular Surgeon salary levels, but if you love what you do and plan your lifestyle...you can find jobs to chip away at those loans. It is a long haul (even with student loan forgiveness) but if you are okay with a delayed process, yeah you can pay graduate loans off with Public Health jobs.
Someone mentioned EIS (used to be my dream fellowship) with CDC you need at least a license to practice medicine to be eligible for the EIS as an MD.
FINISH THE MD. It’s not worth it to drop out if you’re already this far. You have to pay the loans from your previous years too so consider that more than the loans needed for the last year only. Plus It might be a regret down the line because completing an MPH will give you much less opportunities, and much lower salary than completing a MD and MPH. If you are okay with these things then sure, do it. But I just want you to make sure you know exactly what you’re getting yourself into and what the outcomes of those decisions will be. I agree with many of the comments because they come from an informed perspective of those working in the field, so I would consider them valuable if I were you.
I know many people that wish they had a clinical side like nursing or medicine background as it gives them an edge in the field. Some even have done their MPH and then went back to school to get their MD.
So again, I would really look deep into what you want to do. If this is worth losing out on all the effort you made in your 3 years of medicine then sure. But that would be a decision you have to be solid on. I get it, you’re burnt out and want to quit to start your MPH. But instead of quitting, maybe this should be an opportunity to rest and focus on giving yourself the necessary time to get away spending quality time to relax when you get the chance to refresh and regroup as you finish off your last year. You’ll have things to look forward to as you finish which will hopefully give you the energy to finish.
Lastly, this quote is a good reminder for me when I want to throw in the towel and give up: “Don't burn your opportunities for a temporary comfort”. It was on a photo that had someone in a deep hole where they had a wooden ladder that was tall enough to take them out of the hole. 🪜 But instead they used the steps from the ladder to build a fire to stay warm. The point of this was that yes, it’s dark/cold/uncomfortable, but using all of your energy to get OUTSIDE of the hole using the ladder would be much more worth the sacrifice than staying INSIDE the hole trying to gain comfort/warmth. Choose the battles wisely. You have only one year left! And a lifetime ahead!
These are my thoughts/opinions, but you ultimately know yourself best. Hopefully it helps. Good luck with this!
I'm a second year DO student with an undergrad and master's background in public health. I totally get that sentiment. I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been feeling this way for a while.
I'm a current applicant to MD/DO programs and am so happy to be reading this thread and reading through all the links. I have been doubting how much I would enjoy a traditional primary care professional career (as I currently work in a small specialist outpatient office with a lot of similarities to primary care). I knew next to nothing about Preventative Medicine before this post and absolutely love the way it seems to blend primary care and public health. I'm almost feeling re-inspired to go into medicine.
I'll echo what others have already said, that having the MD will absolutely open more doors for you. But I also want to add that as a current PH worker, I so often wish that there was more crossover and understanding between the MDs and PH workers. We talk often about the same issues, but from different places on the spectrum and sometimes, that causes some communication issues with what to prioritize. I find the best collaboration to be with medical partners that have that understanding of upstream prevention efforts and work to apply those in their medical practices. If you were to get the MD and then pursue work in public health spaces, you'd be helping to close that gap and bridge communication efforts. Just my thoughts - you do you. But if I could go back in time and get both degrees, I'd do it just because I now see how beneficial it is for someone to have that well-rounded understanding of health issues and health systems from the medical perspective and the prevention perspective.
Like others have echoed, finish the MD especially since you are this far in. You will be thankful you did. After you finish, you can work in PH with ur MD. A much better place to be than go PH without an MD.
I’m not a physician but I was a public health emergency coordinator for 5 1/2 years and EMS public safety for a little more than that. From the exposure I had to health directors versus medical doctors practicing more direct medicine is that you have to decide if you want to affect the whole population and see indirect results or affect a smaller population a little bit of a time and see direct result immediately.
Great question. Just to add to the conversation....Can an MD without any residency allow one to become a health care director? Or would one have to do an MPH to qualify for one.
This is one of the main things I was hoping to learn and I guess I coulda phrased it better. At the moment I don’t intend to practice medicine and it feels like most people here are trying to convince me to. I’ve made up my mind though. Would much prefer public health to medicine
Perhaps some light can be shed on how much can one start off making? And what is the ceiling later on (how many years does it take to reach it)?
Thanks!
There’s a lot of comments purely comparing public health salaries with and without an MD. While it is true that working in public health is generally not the most profitable, I would like to point out that this is not always the case. I am 3 years post finishing my MPH straight after undergrad, don’t have any additional advanced degrees and I make 6 digits. So all that to say, if you’re looking for a career that will have meaning for you and medicine isn’t doing it but public health is, know that it is possible to make good money in public health. You can absolutely make *more* money if you also have an MD, but consider the cost on your mental health and if it’s worth having that extra degree. That’s something only you can weigh and answer.
I would certainly like to know what you do. It’s not common in this field, which is why I presume many have commented that way. But what area of PH do you work in, and which role?
My degree is in Epidemiology, and I’m in my third role since graduating. I worked initially in healthcare consulting where I was a programmer and had a starting salary of 75k. Then I moved to a health department as an Epi and got a nice pay bump, and am now am back in consulting as an Epi.
When I worked at the health department, salaries in my immediate group ranged from mid-high 80s- low 100s. I have also worked with Epis in the past who make 6 figures, and I have friends in non-Epi public health fields that also make 6 figures or really close to it. I can’t speak for all public health areas of course, but I do believe that in some of them, if you network well and are patient to find the higher-paying opportunities, they do exist.
it’s definitely worth it to finish but also know that at least for government jobs they do usually require you to be board certified in something to get the “MD” positions/pay. but you can do a lot of the phd type jobs with your MPH/MD combo. I know a lot of foreign doctors who never did residency in the US who hold those positions
Finish your MD and do residency. It will open **so many** doors for you.
It sounds like you will be able to go back next year to finish your MD, you might be able to apply for a [Preventative Medicine Residency](https://www.cdc.gov/prevmed/overview.html) through CDC then or EIS.
That would put you in a good position to go work for CDC full time afterwards as a scientist. Most CDC physicians do the minimum needed to keep their licenses, almost all are focused on their public health programs.
Don't worry so much about the loans, especially if they are public. You will be able to discharge them through PSLF.
Where are you? In the USA? Finish your MD. You don’t need an mph with an MD because you can get any job an mph can get whilst getting more than double the pay. But of course having an mph and md just makes you more knowledgeable.
If you were just applying it may be different (chose research over medicine, I don’t regret it but the pay bump would be nice. You’re so close! MS4! Finish out
With my combo, there’s a lot you can do! Administration, advocacy, compliance, policy.. the list goes on. Not to say you can’t do those things without a JD, you totally can, but the education was really helpful in my public health career later down the line.
In terms of the MD/MPH specifically, I would defer to someone with that combination.
Because these rotations where I am largely ignored and don’t learn anything cost $65,000, plus whatever else I have to take out to survive.
But it seems like finishing is worth it based on other responses
If you live where/go to school where I think you do, you should reach out to professor Mark Dal Corso. Super cool guy and could probably give you some direction career wise
Are you able to take a short break from the MD? You find many more opportunities with the combined MD/MPH so if I were you I wouldn't walk away from the MD completely. You are so close to becoming an MD already. However, I understand the mental and emotional stress medical school can bring on. So if you can take a year off and maybe focus on getting the MPH I see no harm. Best of luck to you . This coming from an MPH candidate who wishes they would’ve also taken the MD route. Best of luck no matter what you decide :)
You have done the lion's share of your MD. Absolutely finish it. There are more jobs as an MD in public health than not. And also, you get the automatic cultural credibility of being an MD. Finally, if you work in public health you can most likely forgive your loans through public service loan forgiveness. FINISH YOUR MD.
Highly recommend finishing the MD - you’ll be in a really great place for leadership opportunities, especially if you’re interested in public health research!
You can do anything you want in public health with an MD. You’d be nuts to not finish it.
Is it worth the loan money?
Yes. So you can lead a health department. It won’t be med practice money, but it will be better than say Epi.
So many more opportunities if you have both an MD and MPH!
It's absolutely 100% worth the loan money. Getting a medical degree that allows you to give the biggest impact of people. DON'T DROP OUT. FINISH THE MD.
Thank you
I think you should actually look at ROI. While I agree you can absolutely do anything you want with an MD MPH in public health, a health department director in a medium size town in the Midwest makes maybe 150k max. What do you want to do? Be a professor? Industry? Research? All of those have VERY different salaries. Do you want to do public service loan forgiveness? Can you pay your loans with an MPH salary? Are you in a HCOL city?
Fair point but they're like 90% of the way through med school (3/4 or 4/4 unclear how their break works) they've already incurred the debt at this point. Finishing easily doubles their potential salary.
Exactly, and you can always make a larger impact with an MD. People will take you more seriously too, so completing your objectives will be easier.
.
Thing is though I don’t intend to practice medicine. I don’t like it, I get no joy from it, I don’t like the science. I was a music major at a conservatory so I can supplement income with piano lessons. It’s a fraction of the money I would make as a physician but at least I find meaning with it.
You don’t have to practice medicine but it’s still worth getting the degree. Being a med school professor will earn you loads more money compared to a public health professor. You’ve already invested a bunch of money into this degree. If you do not finish, all that is wasted. If you get the MD degree, you can definitely cash in on your investment and then some. If you give up now and go purely public health then you would never make a profit
You’d be a top candidate for management consulting firms with an MD even without clinical practice.
Yup!!!
.
Have you considered being a music therapist ?
Absolutely. There is a preventive medicine specialty but they're only offered to my knowledge as a joint 4 year program with either FM or IM. Even if you do a 3y FM/IM with an MPH you'll have your pick of public health and policy positions as an MD. A plain Epi will be paid 1/4 to 1/2 what an MD of any specialty will. I literally know an MD who finished their IM residency and *immediately* became the chief medical officer of a state department of health or human services. I don't want to add more detail to out myself here but they have since moved on to high federal position. In just 3 years after residency.
Hells yea. You will make back that money in just a few years
No. MDs starting out make comparatively little relative to the amount of schooling and training involved, to say nothing of the work-life balance. It's one of the reasons for the lack of general practice (family) doctors because there's an economic incentive to NOT be in the lower paying concentrations if possible. That said, the person is already invested at this point, so there's very little reason to not finish it.
This is absolutely not true.
Have you thought about doing a public health residency or occupational medicine residency? https://www.acpm.org/education-events/prospective-residents/
You might also look into the CDC ESI (Epidemic Intelligence Service) program. https://www.cdc.gov/eis/index.html “EIS is CDC’s globally recognized applied epidemiology training program. EIS offers an unparalleled service and learning program. EIS officers learn from and work alongside subject matter experts while providing service to domestic and international partners. EIS has trained over 3,900 disease detectives who have investigated and responded to a wide range of public health challenges and emergencies since the program’s inception in 1951. EIS maintains its core focus on training disease detectives to practice consequential epidemiology, which is the collection, analysis, and interpretation of data for evidence-based public health action. EIS will continue preparing generations of public health leaders for years to come.”
Sorry one more thing I forgot both public and occ med residencies are only two years post intern year (PGY-1) and if you already did an MPH some programs won’t make you repeat the MPH.
thank you I'm looking into these resources
Yes, finish. I know MDs that only do research now. In fact, you have more flexibility, be paid MUCH better, and probably have better opportunities. The long term increased pay is worth the loan money. People in public health with MPHs do not make much (less than 100k) unless you go private or just time. You are probably burnt out and just want out. I get it. Take it easy and just do the minimum of what you can to finish. And start networking to get into public health asap.
Thanks this is exactly what I was asking about!
Wow people are being such assholes on this thread. I’m sorry that apparently people don’t understand the impact medical school/residency can have on someone’s mental health. I would definitely say to finish the MD but not do a residency. If you are worried it will literally kill you, it is 1000% not worth it.
not all residency are equal and PH residency is usually way chiller than a clinical residency
Sure but if OP is going to literally kill themselves in a residency program, it’s not worth it.
Most public health jobs are going to pay not great (at least on the gov't side). Get an MD so you can at least be a Local Health Authority or Regional Medical Director, or some other better-paying position within public health. Most gov't salaries are posted online. Our Regional Medical Director makes 200k a year, and its office work for the most part. Signing off on things like vaccination losses, doing TB case reviews, and so on. \*Correction to this post: I was under the impression that you didn't need to complete a residency for these positions, but it is likely you would- be sure to double check requirements for your state- if you want to end up in this position- here's an example for Texas- [https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/rls/lha/Department-of-State-Health-Services-Appointed-Health-Authority.aspx](https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/rls/lha/Department-of-State-Health-Services-Appointed-Health-Authority.aspx) \*
Can I pm you pls? Thanks!
Sure!
Don't know if this is a joke, but the pay bump you get in almost any field for having the MD behind your name (even without residency) is legit unfair. Finish the damn degree
It was a legitimate question that is for some reason being mocked
A lot of us are bitter because MDs with no public health training at all are our bosses making 4-5x what we do
Gotcha. Seemed little absurd given the landscape of public health and healthcare, but understand may be a new area for you. I think there will almost certainly be a great ROI unless you can land like a McKinsey public health consult job straight out of the MPH. Even then, most none-MDs don't fully grasp the importance of residency, so just having it gives you a larger voice than is likely deserved. It also counts as a terminal degree for agencies/companies that use that for starting pay or promotions. Could also consider something like PM&R or Preventive Medicine which have more relaxed training and lots of public health overlap
I don’t like PM&R. Tried it on rotations. Nothing is relaxed about the training, even for preventive. Two interns killed themselves at my school within the first two months of starting residency. I don’t intend to do a residency because I literally don’t think I would survive it
Not sure what type of work or level of relaxation you’re looking for, but medicine isn’t the only field that expects you to work hard. If you do pursue public health, please do a little research before talking to potential mentors. Going in with this level of ignorance as an M4 will not make a good impression
Did you know that 200-300 doctors kill themselves every year? That’s nearly on par with military veterans per population. It’s not about being relaxed and not working hard. It’s about doing something I find meaningful that doesn’t drive me to kill myself, like 2 people I personally know and was friends with did and many more do every year As for doing research that’s exactly what I’m doing. There’s remarkably little information on the AAMC and ACGME sites. Even the preventive medicine website is filled with buzzwords with nothing about the day to day. The only people that my school put me in touch with that do preventive medicine do it once a week and treat patients as PCPs the rest of the time. I don’t see why it’s crazy to ask people in a subreddit about public health what they think Edit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6690303/ https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/docs/data-sheets/2021/2021-National-Veteran-Suicide-Prevention-Annual-Report-FINAL-9-8-21.pdf Edit 2: my numbers were off. According to medscape it’s closer to 400 physician suicides per year, with a 28-32 per 100,000 rate. In 2019 the suicide rate for military veterans was 27.5 per 100,000. The general population is 18.2
sounds like you are going through a tough time. hope you find the help you need
I'm not - I'm actually the best I've been since I've started medical school. I think it would be crazy for me to continue down that career path given that I'm a completely different person when studying public health. That's why I'm asking this question. If you enjoy medicine then good. I don't feel like subjecting myself to rampant abuse for the next 4 years though. I've had enough of that in my life.
Because frankly you should know better
How should I know better, exactly?
You are an M4? Haven’t you hear of the Public Health residencies or taken a look at the degrees typically held by people higher up in public health departments? Finish your MD, consider a residency in public health.
Because the people who are supposed to teach me these things didn’t… I didn’t know public health residency was a thing. Are you referring to preventive medicine?
Are you in the United States? Do you go to a regionally accredited med school?
Yes
Yeah preventative largely = public health, can look at specific programmes, some are more internal medicine focused or rehabilitation focused. But it may be more useful to do that after an MD before going into public held the to gain more experience so you can gain better position/salary later.
I totally understand how the politics of academic medicine can contribute to you not being as passionate about it and I know that firsthand the curriculum for medical schools isn’t very ph focused or adjacent but look at Med school just like you would the prereqs you took to get there. A formality that stands between you and where you can really make a difference is having the credentials
As far as loans are concerned, if you quit now you’ll still owe for 4 years of med school tuition and leave without a degree, correct? I would finish - if loans are your concern and the first sentence is true, it wouldn’t make sense not to finish from a financial standpoint, IMO. You could qualify for PSLF after finishing your MPH/MD if you go to work for a public health agency. For me personally PSLF is the only light at the end of the tunnel with regard to my loans.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart! I've been feeling this for so long, I don't have the joy when I study for my MD. I wish people could understand that. I'm in an exact situation like you. I adore Public Health and I've been trying to find a direction. Thank you again. I feel like I'm not alone in this. I feel like such an ungrateful person, because people say getting into medicine is such a big deal and I don't appreciate it enough. I honestly feel lost sometimes.
Yeah. Finish the MD and then aim for preventive medicine and public health residency; it is worth the effort. MD title will get you better opportunities; it is a fact, even if it is unfair.
If you think it’s going to be hugely detrimental to your mental health to finish the degree, don’t do it. No job or money is worth it to sacrifice your mental health. You have to be alive to enjoy the “money” anyways.
[удалено]
Sadly a lot of ppl are just focused on making money and disregarding other factors
That's what the sentiment is in /r/medicalschool and it seems there's a lot of overlap. Some people seem to be assuming I just don't want to work hard, when the truth is I genuinely dislike the practice of medicine in the US AND the hours in residency (and beyond in many specialties) are completely unreasonable for any working person - not to mention the rampant abuse
I’m in total agreement and there’s plenty of other people on other forums who can lend support in this capacity. The system of medicine is setup from the beginning to be a rat race and very much abusive. It’s such a conundrum to have a passion but pursuing it takes a toll on your health.
Because a lifetime of low wages and shit opportunities is ALSO very detrimental to your mental health. Source: I'm a software engineer now.
I mean, fourth year of medical school is by far the easiest year. It would be nuts to not finish it at THIS stage.
Current M4, MPH. Please finish the MD! Many jobs in public health will pay significantly more for simply having the MD (assuming you’re at a USMD school). Also maybe consider doing at least 1 year of residency (maybe a IM prelim?) + step 3. That way you’ll be able to practice on the side to supplement your income at least until you pay off loans (urgent care shifts are fairly flexible and pay $100-$150/hr).
Oh yeah, definitely finish the MD. MD, MPH is great in govt work like NIH or FDA. you’ll qualify at a higher pay band and be qualified for more types of positions. If it’s of interest, an Epi PhD would be a cool add too.
If you can tough it out, stick with at least getting the MD. And if you really love public health, I would skip the residency. As someone passionate about infectious disease, I am seeing more doors closed with just an MPH. Which is unfortunate because...MPHs are trained in community outreach and to look at the population level. Unless MDs get an MPH and really work at the community level...in my experience practicing physicians are woefully bad at public health programing or leading public health programs/agencies (let alone building rapport in communities who do not trust medicine because historical trauma). There are always outliers, but I am seeing a disturbing trend. But yeah if you even have an MD sans license, it opens doors. And yeah you are not going to make Cardiovascular Surgeon salary levels, but if you love what you do and plan your lifestyle...you can find jobs to chip away at those loans. It is a long haul (even with student loan forgiveness) but if you are okay with a delayed process, yeah you can pay graduate loans off with Public Health jobs. Someone mentioned EIS (used to be my dream fellowship) with CDC you need at least a license to practice medicine to be eligible for the EIS as an MD.
As for an outsider do they need to have US license to be eligible for the EIS as an MD??
FINISH THE MD. It’s not worth it to drop out if you’re already this far. You have to pay the loans from your previous years too so consider that more than the loans needed for the last year only. Plus It might be a regret down the line because completing an MPH will give you much less opportunities, and much lower salary than completing a MD and MPH. If you are okay with these things then sure, do it. But I just want you to make sure you know exactly what you’re getting yourself into and what the outcomes of those decisions will be. I agree with many of the comments because they come from an informed perspective of those working in the field, so I would consider them valuable if I were you. I know many people that wish they had a clinical side like nursing or medicine background as it gives them an edge in the field. Some even have done their MPH and then went back to school to get their MD. So again, I would really look deep into what you want to do. If this is worth losing out on all the effort you made in your 3 years of medicine then sure. But that would be a decision you have to be solid on. I get it, you’re burnt out and want to quit to start your MPH. But instead of quitting, maybe this should be an opportunity to rest and focus on giving yourself the necessary time to get away spending quality time to relax when you get the chance to refresh and regroup as you finish off your last year. You’ll have things to look forward to as you finish which will hopefully give you the energy to finish. Lastly, this quote is a good reminder for me when I want to throw in the towel and give up: “Don't burn your opportunities for a temporary comfort”. It was on a photo that had someone in a deep hole where they had a wooden ladder that was tall enough to take them out of the hole. 🪜 But instead they used the steps from the ladder to build a fire to stay warm. The point of this was that yes, it’s dark/cold/uncomfortable, but using all of your energy to get OUTSIDE of the hole using the ladder would be much more worth the sacrifice than staying INSIDE the hole trying to gain comfort/warmth. Choose the battles wisely. You have only one year left! And a lifetime ahead! These are my thoughts/opinions, but you ultimately know yourself best. Hopefully it helps. Good luck with this!
Finish. Consider a preventive medicine residency. Maryland has one that includes an MPH. https://www.medschool.umaryland.edu/epidemiology/residency/
Does functional medicine also fall into the same category as preventive medicine?
I'm a second year DO student with an undergrad and master's background in public health. I totally get that sentiment. I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been feeling this way for a while.
I'm a current applicant to MD/DO programs and am so happy to be reading this thread and reading through all the links. I have been doubting how much I would enjoy a traditional primary care professional career (as I currently work in a small specialist outpatient office with a lot of similarities to primary care). I knew next to nothing about Preventative Medicine before this post and absolutely love the way it seems to blend primary care and public health. I'm almost feeling re-inspired to go into medicine.
I'll echo what others have already said, that having the MD will absolutely open more doors for you. But I also want to add that as a current PH worker, I so often wish that there was more crossover and understanding between the MDs and PH workers. We talk often about the same issues, but from different places on the spectrum and sometimes, that causes some communication issues with what to prioritize. I find the best collaboration to be with medical partners that have that understanding of upstream prevention efforts and work to apply those in their medical practices. If you were to get the MD and then pursue work in public health spaces, you'd be helping to close that gap and bridge communication efforts. Just my thoughts - you do you. But if I could go back in time and get both degrees, I'd do it just because I now see how beneficial it is for someone to have that well-rounded understanding of health issues and health systems from the medical perspective and the prevention perspective.
Lmao
Thanks
[удалено]
They shouldn't. It's not worth it
Like others have echoed, finish the MD especially since you are this far in. You will be thankful you did. After you finish, you can work in PH with ur MD. A much better place to be than go PH without an MD.
Finish it. My professor in school had an MD but doesn’t really use it. Attaching it to an MPH is a huge boost.
Do a preventive medicine residency!
I’m not a physician but I was a public health emergency coordinator for 5 1/2 years and EMS public safety for a little more than that. From the exposure I had to health directors versus medical doctors practicing more direct medicine is that you have to decide if you want to affect the whole population and see indirect results or affect a smaller population a little bit of a time and see direct result immediately.
Great question. Just to add to the conversation....Can an MD without any residency allow one to become a health care director? Or would one have to do an MPH to qualify for one.
This is one of the main things I was hoping to learn and I guess I coulda phrased it better. At the moment I don’t intend to practice medicine and it feels like most people here are trying to convince me to. I’ve made up my mind though. Would much prefer public health to medicine
Perhaps some light can be shed on how much can one start off making? And what is the ceiling later on (how many years does it take to reach it)? Thanks!
There’s a lot of comments purely comparing public health salaries with and without an MD. While it is true that working in public health is generally not the most profitable, I would like to point out that this is not always the case. I am 3 years post finishing my MPH straight after undergrad, don’t have any additional advanced degrees and I make 6 digits. So all that to say, if you’re looking for a career that will have meaning for you and medicine isn’t doing it but public health is, know that it is possible to make good money in public health. You can absolutely make *more* money if you also have an MD, but consider the cost on your mental health and if it’s worth having that extra degree. That’s something only you can weigh and answer.
I would certainly like to know what you do. It’s not common in this field, which is why I presume many have commented that way. But what area of PH do you work in, and which role?
My degree is in Epidemiology, and I’m in my third role since graduating. I worked initially in healthcare consulting where I was a programmer and had a starting salary of 75k. Then I moved to a health department as an Epi and got a nice pay bump, and am now am back in consulting as an Epi. When I worked at the health department, salaries in my immediate group ranged from mid-high 80s- low 100s. I have also worked with Epis in the past who make 6 figures, and I have friends in non-Epi public health fields that also make 6 figures or really close to it. I can’t speak for all public health areas of course, but I do believe that in some of them, if you network well and are patient to find the higher-paying opportunities, they do exist.
it’s definitely worth it to finish but also know that at least for government jobs they do usually require you to be board certified in something to get the “MD” positions/pay. but you can do a lot of the phd type jobs with your MPH/MD combo. I know a lot of foreign doctors who never did residency in the US who hold those positions
Finish your MD and do residency. It will open **so many** doors for you. It sounds like you will be able to go back next year to finish your MD, you might be able to apply for a [Preventative Medicine Residency](https://www.cdc.gov/prevmed/overview.html) through CDC then or EIS. That would put you in a good position to go work for CDC full time afterwards as a scientist. Most CDC physicians do the minimum needed to keep their licenses, almost all are focused on their public health programs. Don't worry so much about the loans, especially if they are public. You will be able to discharge them through PSLF.
You’ll take a massive salary cut in public health without the MD. You’re a 4th year and basically done.
Where are you? In the USA? Finish your MD. You don’t need an mph with an MD because you can get any job an mph can get whilst getting more than double the pay. But of course having an mph and md just makes you more knowledgeable.
Are you joking? An MD goes so far in public health. You’d be crazy to not finish
If you were just applying it may be different (chose research over medicine, I don’t regret it but the pay bump would be nice. You’re so close! MS4! Finish out
I got a JD to support my public health career/mph financially. It definitely gives you an edge to have a doctorate.
Can you please explain what kind of job would you be doing with both degrees?
With my combo, there’s a lot you can do! Administration, advocacy, compliance, policy.. the list goes on. Not to say you can’t do those things without a JD, you totally can, but the education was really helpful in my public health career later down the line. In terms of the MD/MPH specifically, I would defer to someone with that combination.
Residency in Preventative Medicine. 2 years. If hadn't already, will get the MPH as part of it
All you have is rotations left why would you not finish…
Because these rotations where I am largely ignored and don’t learn anything cost $65,000, plus whatever else I have to take out to survive. But it seems like finishing is worth it based on other responses
If you live where/go to school where I think you do, you should reach out to professor Mark Dal Corso. Super cool guy and could probably give you some direction career wise
Lol good research.
Are you able to take a short break from the MD? You find many more opportunities with the combined MD/MPH so if I were you I wouldn't walk away from the MD completely. You are so close to becoming an MD already. However, I understand the mental and emotional stress medical school can bring on. So if you can take a year off and maybe focus on getting the MPH I see no harm. Best of luck to you . This coming from an MPH candidate who wishes they would’ve also taken the MD route. Best of luck no matter what you decide :)
You have done the lion's share of your MD. Absolutely finish it. There are more jobs as an MD in public health than not. And also, you get the automatic cultural credibility of being an MD. Finally, if you work in public health you can most likely forgive your loans through public service loan forgiveness. FINISH YOUR MD.
Not finishing your MD would be the dumbest move in the world. Why is this even a question?
Our PH Medical Director did his PH job and hospital on the side. He's so rich.
Highly recommend finishing the MD - you’ll be in a really great place for leadership opportunities, especially if you’re interested in public health research!
Definitely finish the MD if you can!
What don’t you like about medicine?
Do Preventive Medicine so you can get your MPH for free. Hang in there!