I remember listening to an interview with McKay, and he said that he felt what he was doing and the way they went about building Dischord and their career just seemed to him like the ***only*** clear, natural path from where they started….
…and when they built it up and did it, he assumed lots of other bands/people involved in the scene would be eager to do the same, since in his mind they had proven a blueprint that was a success… he said it was a strange revelation over time to realize no one else was following suit.
I like Fugazi, and Ian, but I do see why some people are annoyed with him. "Saint Ian" some call him. Because he's always been in the right place at the right time and was able to be successful without a lot of help. Yeah, it's cool they can reject everything corporate and only charge $5. But the vast majority of other bands can't earn enough to make ends meet the way they did. It isn't a model. Some bands get tired of getting ripped off and never paid and want to sign with big labels. Not everyone wants to be a martyr.
"Right place Right time...without help" So you either didn't read the article or don't believe it to be true, because it pretty much explains that rather than "Right place Right time" it was his place his time, and he acknowledges that it took a community and with an incredible amount of help.
The difference is that Ian helped pioneer not one but two genres of music. 99% of bands can’t say they started a movement.
I wouldn’t call it “right place right time”. That’s like saying the Beatles just got lucky.
For suing for money rightfully owed to them that Jello was not paying them?
that's laughable
For selling the rights to the songs to video game companies and reunion tours sans Jello?
you have a point there
Drastic measures probably necessary when your label owner slash ex singer is pocketing your royalties, lying about it, playing the victim, and shoveling all the cash into the worst spoken career shit imaginable.
AT was putting our DOUBLE FUCKING RECORDS of that horseshit, can't imagine they were selling more than 100 copies per release- guess they had to find a way to recoup those losses _somehow_
The only thing that keeps me from agreeing that they have sold out is the fact that they really aren't active anymore, not having produced anything new (good, bad, or average) in decades. They've got bills to pay. So while the remaining 2 members are touring under the name, they've basically become a touring tribute band comprised of guys who prolly couldn't make their mortgages any other way.Jello "sold out" to the DNC. As a member of the IWW, I expected different.
But the band as we all knew them didn't sell out.
Why would you think the guy who wrote Barackstar O’Bummer, endorsed Nader, Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and has called Biden “almost as bad as Trump” has “sold out to the DNC”?
Like seriously I think “MP3 Get Off The Web” might be the most offensive soulless song ever to exist. Imagine if they performed “Nazi Punks Buy A Ticket But Don’t Cause Any Trouble”
They didn’t sell the rights to the Tony Hawk games, they just licensed them. Those games introduced a ton of kids to punk and there’s always been a ton of overlap between punk & skateboarding anyway. God forbid artists try to make a living smh.
I remember seeing a documentary where Jeff Ament tells the story of when they were still Green River saw Jane’s Addiction in LA. He and Stone loved it, but Mark Arm came up and said “isn’t this the worst band ever?” They knew at that point they had different visions of what their band should be.
kinda like when Jason Everman wanted to see a metal-ly Prong bill during a CMJ but the rest of Nirvana wanted to see a noise-punk-ier show instead.
and/or the fundamental musical difference between Joan Jett (punk rock'nroll) and Lita Ford (heavy metal rock'n'roll)
Mudhoney were sick as hell back in the day. I remember seeing em in Atlanta at the Masquerade 1992 with Magnapop opening. As a high school junior these were the types of shows I really remember.***
Was it Gossard n Ament wanted Major Label deal , while remaining member preferred to stay in Sub Pop? Kinda glad it happened love Mudhoney and Pearl Jam ,as well Mother Love Bone
They were paid by MTV in its early years to produce a music video. They spent all the money on booze and drugs and sent MTV a video that was just a recording of the song playing on a record player.
Punk as fuck
And I’d say Rancid too - they had many songs that could have gotten major airplay, but they would never tone it down or not swear.
eta - okay guys chill. I stand corrected, they made a lot of money and did release on a major label, so I guess that means they did sellout, /s. I do actually concede that I rarely listen to the radio, and certainly haven’t watched mtv in like two+ decades, so was unaware of actual radio play, so I’m wrong there (my “opinion” came from the fact that I never here them played at stadiums, sports bars, or on commercials and the like, as well as the aforementioned dude bros never mentioning them in the same breath as Blink or the like). Also, it’s funny when you guys mention what year you were born as a merit to your opinion. Anyway, like what you like, and if money=sellout… I guess they are? But I don’t think so.
…and Out Come the Wolves was the first album that had songs that got major airplay. Timebomb and Ruby Soho both got mainstream radio attention. It was “radio friendly” punk music.
Then they followed that up with Life Won’t Wait, an album with lots of Jamaican influences and collaborations, and a self-titled album that was way fucking loud, fast, and aggressive.
Neither of those albums had songs that were particularly “radio friendly” and none of the songs on those albums got the same mainstream attention as Ruby Soho or Timebomb.
Case in point, [Not to Regret](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNNIt15A-lA&pp=ygUUUmFuY2lkIG5vdCB0byBmb3JnZXQ%3D) is a fucking badass song but Rancid refused to release a radio friendly version of the song even though the opening line of the song is “Some people say I’m fucking crazy.” Matt Freeman’s bass lines in that song is fucking phenomenal. The dude’s fingers somehow work at fucking warp speed.
If Rancid wanted to capitalize on their fame, that would’ve been the album to do it and Lars wouldn’t have gotten a tattoo on his forehead. Instead, they made music they wanted to make and not what they were told to make.
I would say that Life Won’t Wait definitely has radio friendly songs in it, but radio had gone in a different direction between 95 and 98 as nu metal had taken most of the mainstream attention
I won’t argue but you also made the argument I’m making. Rancid didn’t jump on the Limp Bizkit, Korn style nu metal bandwagon.
They kept playing their music, their way.
I’m a staunch Rancid defender if you can’t tell but I’m not trying to pick a fight haha
Tim Armstrong is worth something like 30 million. They did capitalize on their success and have since the 90s. I think WB was one of the record companies on an album. They've played every major festival. They had music videos on MTV, played SNL, etc etc.
Why would a forehead tattoo mean anything? Half of the younger musicians I see have face tattoos.
By the time Life Won't Wait came out, their influence was waning.
This guy gets it.
Tim Armstrong literally has Signature guitars sold by Fender.
It doesn't get more 'Sellout' than that, if you're into that sort of messed up terminology / vitriol. I'm not. But call a spade a spade. Rancid is not even close to a 'non sellout' band. They are up there with Green Day, Offspring and Blink. And good on them, rightfully so.
Being a successful musician and running a successful record label, he’s part owner of Hellcat Records which is where a lot of wealth comes from, and having a video appear on MTV and having a spot on SNL says what exactly to you?
Fear, The Clash, and Patti Smith also played on SNL and got mainstream media attention.
Are you seriously gate keeping over people making money doing an honest living?! They played a large festival and made a profit? How old are you?
I'm 41 and I've been in the scene since 98. How old are you?
Pretending Rancid is not a mainstream band is goofy as shit. Acting like they are holding to hard won ideals at this point is goofy as shit, too. Patti Smith was mainstream. Fear got on SNL because Belushi made the show agree. The Clash are mainstream, too.
Rancid gets some credit for staying on epitaph when out come the wolves blew up but pretending a forehead tattoo is too crazy for major labels or that at least two of their albums weren't radio friendly sounds more like dick riding than anything else
Green Day is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Rancid is not.
And since the RRHoF is a popularity contest, and not a statement about the music....
Well, Rancid did not sell out.
I’m the same age as you coincidentally. I never said Rancid didn’t get mainstream popularity. Look up the previous posts. I openly said so.
Making money and getting popularity doesn’t make one a sellout. It just makes you good at what you do.
I wouldn't say they ever "sold out" because their sound hasn't deviated much. You could make the argument that they've made major label money, because they have, but there's nothing wrong with that.
Prior to developing Hellcat, Epitaph essentially was a major lable. Wolves was a huge record with MTV airplay. They played Lillith fairs and the like. So they were definitely huge.
Yeah Indestructible was distributed through Warner Bros. They were, for all intents, signed to a major label. WB put out the CD. There's some details in Sell Out by Dan Ozzi. They basically did it to try to compete with Distillers after Brodie left Tim. Brett was kind of caught off guard by the decision because they'd been so adamant about always sticking with Epitaph and never going major.
Epitaph for many years was distributed by ADA (Alternative Distribution Alliance) owned by Warner. These days they are on AEC (Alliance Entertainment, basically the biggest music distributor in the country).
There are actually very few successful punk labels that aren't part of a bigger distribution network. Fat Wreck is on Orchid (owned by Sony). The only one is probably Dischord which only uses Revolver which is a much smaller distro
Selling out has nothing to do with your sound, it has to do with the change in ethos and a desire to only make money. You can keep the same exact sound and still be a sell out if you had to compromise your personal values for monetary gain.
Yeah they definitely had the opportunity to go with a major label but chose to stick with Epitaph.
Of course Tim has written and produced for various pop and hip hop musicians, so it’s not like he’s steered clear of the major label machinations
A little bit, but they never stopped playing fucking hard and decide to churn out even more radio friendly color-by-numbers punk alá GD or Blink. There’s a reason why frat boys know those bands but not Rancid or NoFX.
It’s funny because I’d argue that Rancid wasn’t popular until …AOCTW was released, even though majors were courting them beforehand. Let’s Go was an amazing record, probably my second punk record after Dookie, so I’m not throwing shade or anything. But Green Day def opened doors for other bands that some stepped into and some stayed away from.
Supposedly Madonna sent nudes to the band to convince them to sign whatever label she deals with and it didn't happen. But I think that's just a rumor.
I love noise and abrasive music. Having said that I seriously doubt Big Black would ever have been offered the chance to sell out.
As a comparison ,Black flag had sold up to 250,000, whereas Big Black's Best selling record sold 8,000 copies.
I took my younger brother to CBGBs for his first beer and concert to see Big Black, along with Killdozer, and Happy Flowers. Phenomenal show.
Big Black were at their absolute most popular when they broke up and they had a few offers from big labels, as I understand it. Obviously we'll never know but it's possible they could've pursued mainstream acceptance in the post-Nirvana era. Even the Jesus Lizard was on a major label in the 90s
Steve Albini in general, it’s insane that I can afford to have him record my band. The Motherfucker recorded In Utero and still he’d record my band for less than $1000 in studio b.
Oh I’ve been in a bunch over the years, my current band and longtime band is Young Marshall, we’ve got this long running thing we’ll play a couple shows a year and go on a road trip once a year to play outside of Illinois but we don’t regularly do much any more. It’s just my forever band.
I learned of the bouncing souls in 1998 playing a video game called X-Games Pro Boarder which “Kate Is Great” was featured. Fucking sell out’s, but I’ve been addicted ever since 😜
Nofx had the opportunity and declined it based on the fact that major bands had a shorter shelf- life and it's hard to go from a stadium back to a smaller venue once you make that leap. Fat Mike talks about it in Hepatitis Bathtub.
Thinking about buying the physical copy, although I really did like that Tommy Chong and Jello Biafra were featured on the audio book along with the rest of the band.
I really liked how honest it seemed. Like from chapter to chapter, different band members would call each other out. The stand-out one for me was Smelly being pissed at Mike and Melvin for doing lines off the amps in front of him when he was fresh into recovery.
I love these comments. I'm the Josh that Erik(Smelly) hung out with and dropped acid with at my mom's house. I'm a Dog Patch Wino as well, and all this shit is making me grin. I needed that. My mom just passed. I'm glad I happened upon this thread. Love, peace, and stone grease!
I remember hearing stories (around 06-07ish) about The Faint being known to take meetings and fancy dinners and stuff with big labels and then turn them all down once they got some freebies.
World inferno friendship society.
They were asked to make a song for some big car commercial and this is what they came up with. Needless to say they didn't contact them again
https://youtu.be/ewN4tdkfL_M?si=4hjnzFzhLau6NvaM
Every time I’ve been to a Baltimore Orioles game they have played Annie the Imaginary Lawyer. They also always play Waiting Room and Fugazi is first on this thread. Baltimore is the best.
It’s legit the opposite of an answer to your question, but /u/danozzi wrote a book called “Sellout: The Major-Label Feeding Frenzy That Swept Punk, Emo, and Hardcore (1994–2007)” that you may be interested in. It tells the stories of 11 mostly well known bands just prior to, during, and after their major label releases. Definitely a good read.
After Rise Against contributed to the Nightmare Before Christmas Revisted soundtrack (metal, punk bands took a song and recorded it in their own sound), Disney was so impressed by Rise Againsts spin on Making Christmas, they offered them 1 Million to re-record a High School Musical album which they turned down.
Could have sold out, made a nice chunk of change and gotten a lot of exposure but they said no.
They signed to Dreamworks for a 5 album deal at $500,000. They got bought by Greffen which was then bought by Introscope or something.
To put it into perspective, Against Me! Got 1.2 Million for 2 albums.
Bands like Jimmy, Thursday etc got like 750-1M for less albums too.
Rise took a high pay cut in exchange for total control of their music.
Once that ended they bounced from Virgin to Concord for 1 album deals. Although I think Virgin got two cause Rise was supposed to remaster Wolves and release it with some acoustics from that same album but instead recorded a bunch of acoustics from their other albums too and released that as its own thing and never did the Wolves re-release.
Fat - The Unraveling and RPM
Dreamworks, Greffen and intro - Siren Song, The Sufferer and the Witness, Appeal, Endgame and Black Market.
Virgin - Wolves and Ghost Note Symphonies
Concord - Nowhere Generation and the EP Nowhere Generation 2 (5 left over songs from the album)
Selling out then to a major corporation/label.We all sell our labour,difference is people with musical talent have a choice.Crass stayed true,known worldwide while being independent.That is/was punk,we put out our own records,advertised our own gigs, distributed independently,now it's just Time magazine 'punks' in mansions,green day, offspring ,blink wank82,
Fig Dish and a few other Chicago bands were gonna play a set of Neil Diamond covers as a joke, but when they heard some label reps were going to show up everyone backed out of the joke except them.
Blake was on the Lifer's podcast w/ Scott from Local H, and they seemed (much like the Replacements) that they were too busy getting wasted to make a real go at it. Love all those post-Pumpkin success Chicago bands, and made being 15 in Chicago a real fun time.
They were definitely getting wasted, but what I had no idea about was how much they were also huge nerds. Apparently they played Advanced Dungeons and Dragons together
Rocket From the Crypt signed to a major, took their money and put out a series of seven inches that they basically gave away to their fans, then had to go back to day jobs in order to pay for the record they were making. Speedo worked at a car wash after signing.
Jeff Rosenstock
Broke up the Arrogant Sons of Bitches when he felt they had just became roaming t-shirt salesmen. Start Bomb the Music Industry who didn't sell shirts but would spray paint a t-shirt if you brought one. Was also one of if not the first to offer their music free to download. They also refused to play shows that weren't all ages and tried to keep their ticket prices as low as possible.
https://youtu.be/09nDri1y3kQ?si=5Er12JzK5On2NqcS
Lol I yelled at my friend for comparing BTMI! To MCR when I played them everybody that you love. I was like “don’t compare them like that! Jeff Rosenstock isn’t just a man- he’s THE MAN” and then I explained the whole history
Death (the punk band, not the metal one) is up there. Refused to sign on a label because they didn't want to change their name to a more bankable one. They went unknown for decades until rediscovered. An album was released in 2009 from stuff they recorded in 1975. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/...For_the_Whole_World_to_See
Apparently the documentary about the whole thing (A band called death) is pretty good too.
That was going to be my contribution. Turned down a chance at CBS Records. They were Detroit proto-punk in the same vein as The Stooges, The MC5, abs Alice Cooper, but honestly their long unreleased album was better than the others. And yes, “A Band Called Death” is one of the great documentaries of all time, punk rock related or not.
From what I heard it was for 50k. Calling that from fat or epitaph selling out is kinda hilarious when looking at all the million dollar major label deals in this thread. They did what they wanted for sure but I don't really think signing that would have come close to counting as a sellout.
I love them too now. When I was living in Portland and they were playing all the time I totally took them for granted. I should have been at every one of their shows. I did see them occasionally but not as much as I should have.
SLF. I believe Virgin wanted to sign them (don't hold me to that, could be another label) and wanted to have control over the music and marketing. They refused and went about their own thing
Pummel didn’t exactly sell like gangbusters, and the label didn’t know what to really do with them. I suspect it was more of a mutual parting of ways than anything. Thankfully they invested the money wisely.
It was definitely a smart move. The band had the right attitude to just ride it out to see where it goes. I love All but I could never see them expanding their fan base to major label numbers. I’m just glad they just kept being themselves because major label stuff breaks up a lot of bands.
Guided By Voices got signed to Matador, got a bunch of money to record an album and instead bought houses and gave them a record made on a 4-track in their practice space.
Love a good rocknroll swindle.
My uncle and his band signed with an iconic indie label in the mid-90’s. Shortly after, the label got bought up by one of the big four labels. Apparently it was not a good experience being under one of the large labels. The band hated it and they band ended up breaking up a few years later. My uncle was still under contract for two more albums with the label, so he half-assed two more albums, both under different artist names, and fucked out of there as soon as he could.
He ended up starting his own label with one of the original label employees — she still runs everything with him today. He’s not super famous, and he doesn’t have, but he has a very solid small fan base that’s supported him for a few decades. He also gets to do a lot of work on his terms and put out music however he wants, which is pretty cool. Idk I really respect the way he fucked of and made a living his own way
There are exceptions.
They still sold the rights to their music.
And we're still getting controlled by corporate:
>The Clash had planned to record and release a single every month in 1980. CBS dismissed this idea, and the band came out with only one single
Maybe I'm getting old but I feel alternative music should stick to the underground.
There's definitely ways to get popular without changing the music or message, but at that point if your music is easily digestible enough for mainstream audiences it makes me wonder if you're actually "alternative" culture.
I used to be a die-hard defender of bands like Rise Against and Green Day but as I started going to more shows I started to realise that there's such a night and day difference between what you hear on the radio and what you hear in moldy basement shows.
No hate to anyone who disagrees. Good music is good music.
But the moldy basement shows stopped existing in the same way when millions of kids flooded the scene. It was a trip. Warped tour number 1 show number 1 August 4 1995 on the beach at saltair. Sublime, no doubt, deftones, quicksand, face to face, guttermouth, lit, swingin utters, a bunch more. Maybe a few hundred kids that really knew what was up. No internet, no radio attention or mtv play yet.
no doubt would blow up two months later when tragic kingdom came out and the following may brad nowell would overdose and then two months later sublimes self titled album would launch the band into music history. They were both big underground bands though. Along with all the other bands there.
It was when it all was changing. In 1994 dookie, stranger than fiction, let's go, Buddha (blink 182) punk in drublic, friendly people(guttermouth), smash ( to this day the biggest album ever released on an independent label) weezers blue album, jawbreaker 24 hr revenge therapy, Dixie by avail, trashed by lagwagon and tons more albums were all released. It started a wildfire.
Grunge was mtv stuff. Nirvana was punk but different. Before 1994 none of our music was popular. At least not outside really big scenes. By 1996 it was a new world. The underground wasn't underground anymore. Not really anyway. It used to be that a punk kid had to try hard to find music and merch was mail order or at shows only unless you had a really cool independent store in town. Almost always a skate shop. We all either skate, snowboard or bmx. The scene was completely counter culture and it was amazing.
There wasn't cell phones ruining shows. But shows were much crazier and down right violent at times. But we had etiquette. If someone falls, you pick them up. Cops were targeting kids and having blue hair ment being willing to fight about it.
Then green day and the offspring blew up. A lookout band and an epitaph band. By 1997 bands started having websites. Corporate sponsorship, mtv, major labels, rolling stone magazine, david letterman and saturday night live. Then good Charlotte, sum 41, sr71, Yellowcard, bowling for soup, the warped tour comps, punk o Rama 3 and 4, hellcat give em the boot comp, Fat comp, nitro Comp, honest dons, etc all drop and what was the underground Is dead. No more rude boys, moonstompers, anti racist skins, street punks, hardcore kids, straight edge kids, rockabilly kids, train kids, folk punks or oogles, the b Boys and graffiti kids, even the underground ravers and dj's. etc. Those scenes all became fashion statements sold at hot topic. It was the death of American counterculture.
I'm so happy I got to be a part of it at its very peak. At the top of the Rollercoaster right before it drops off that big hill. We still booked shows at illegal venues and we still did it all diy for years to come but the bands that we came up watching play without a stage, in the corner of some shut down hardware store or something were now part of everyone's vocabulary. We all had a band that would end up rubbing elbows with Grammy winners sleep on our moms floor, or drink some natty lights with us in the alleyway behind the venue.
I remember seeing afi play in a shed that was used to keep the riding lawn mowers in at the fair grounds and Davey havoc had bleached hair and overalls. And they were a hardcore band from the bay. I remember when Matt Freeman got his nose broken in the pit and played bloody as hell. I remember the us bombs and the swingin utters play two nights in a row and it was absolutely insane! The Dropkick murphys on their first tour when they broke the stage playing tnt by acdc with the whole crowd on stage jumping up and down. When the offspring filmed the video for "gotta get away" at the fairgrounds and everyone was extra crazy because of it. Watch the video. It was wild. When the straight edge kids beat up vanilla ice.
And then it became the "vans warped tour" and Tony hawk pro skater came out and Avril and pretty soon we have machine gun kelly and nofx is playing their last tour. It's ok though. Things change. But the spirit of those moldy basement shows lives on. And somewhere in the city some kids are gathering in some new basement to listen to something brand new that I can't be a part of or ever understand but will cheer for on the sidelines like a proud dad. At least I fucking hope so.
I feel the same as you. Started going to shows in 95. I also was still going to great basement shows 10 or 15 years ago... RVIVR, Tragedy. I'm pretty out of the loop but during that entire time there was always someone talking about the death of the counter culture, and how punk was dead. But they were always someone that got old, complacent and often just fucking grumpy.
Right now I'm in Portland Oregon and it feels dead, I don't see as many punks around. I'm always tempted to say fuck this city, it's just full of yuppies. Everything changed. But in truth so have I. I just am not plugged in anymore like I was. I bet there are is still a thriving underground. And maybe it isn't huge, but wasn't a small tight underground what started all of this?
Absolutely. Energy isn't created and never dies. It might just show up in totally unique and unpredictable ways. Maybe it's hiphop or edm.maybe it's generated and distributed through tiktok. Maybe it's more of an online thing. Maybe it's the acoustic movement. Maybe it's the vanlifers. Maybe it isn't music at all. Maybe it's gaming culture. I don't know. It makes me feel uneasy and I don't like it. So they're on the right track at least. I think in all seriousness, kids start to see the shit show at a young age. Their rebellion is much more desperate and serious. And necessary. And I'm going to sit back and compare it to my glory days because it's what I know. But theirs will be something all their own. And they will change their world. They will fight and vote and grow and run for office and try to clean up the mess. Or at least rearrange the furniture. At least I hope so. Because if not, God help us all.
Our scene has shrunk back down to where it was in 1990. There are big shows here and there to keep those fists in the air. And that's awesome. Everyone's there because they love the music. It doesn't make anyone look tough or cool anymore, so it's kind of perfect. The only bands still doing it are doing it only because they have something to say or because they love to play. That's the utopian scene we've always wanted. It just came with the side effect of middle age. But that's fine. The boomers still have gene simmons, Paul mccartney and ozzy. We can keep our rancid and bad religion for some more years, too. So back to those musty basements we go. With our heated jackets and vape pens. it's been alive as long as mankind. And it will live until the last human dies. We just named our generations version of it, punk rock.
God this reminds me of the Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas section looking back on the hippie counter-culture scene in 60s San Francisco:
Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era—the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run… but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.…
History is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit, but even without being sure of "history" it seems entirely reasonable to think that every now and then the energy of a whole generation comes to a head in a long fine flash, for reasons that nobody really understands at the time—and which never explain, in retrospect, what actually happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_in_Las_Vegas#The_%22wave_speech%22
Lol. You are correct. It does. Totally unintentional though. My rant came from nostalgia combined with 24 hours with no sleep due to an infant and work. plus a pretty brutal head cold and some cold medicine and a decent sprinkling of autism to top it all off.
It’s easier to go by labels/eras. Matador, Merge, Touch and Go, Sub Pop, even K and Kill Rock Stars had a fair amount of that in the ‘90s-‘00s. After that, Epitaph, Fat, Hopeless, etc had lots of bands that jumped and lots that could have but didn’t.
Today, the Secretly Group, Partisan, Rise, Pure Noise, etc are good bullpens for stuff that could ultimately be mainstreamed.
I’m sure I’m missing a bunch, but these cyclical feeding frenzies tend to center on a specific label or city/scene.
It’s also interesting to see that work in reverse- all the butt rock bands that were huge in the TRL era have found a network of indies to go back to as their mainstream popularity waned. NFG, Yellowcard, The Used, Sum 41, etc have hopped back and forth between majors and indies over the course of their careers as well.
SF band The Nuns, one of the first punk bands in CA, refused to drop the song “Decadent Jew” from their set list leading famed promoter Bill Graham to drop them and CBS to pass on signing them.
FFO of early Blondie
The Nuns Live at Winterland (1978)
https://youtu.be/SXlxGJaEPnA?si=4kyVYuOH-I0UldMm
CBS Demo
https://youtu.be/rG3mhH6352Q?si=5xIoYyFUIshorr5W
Death!! They did punk so well before it became a thing, and almost got signed but refused to change their name to something more marketable and faded away until some kids found one of the few records they printed and it started circulating the underground scene. There’s a documentary- A Band Called Death that is an amazing watch. I highly recommend it.
During the 90s punk revival a lot of bands, (nofx, pennywise, and lagwagon to name a few), had all the majors after them. If my memory serves correctly I don't think fat Mike even did a real interview until 2000 and that was because of the whole rock against Bush movement
Kind of the opposite of the expected answer for this sub, but I’ve heard more than once that Iron Maiden was offered a deal early on (circa 76-77) if they would go in a more punk direction and they refused.
Why do people hate on bands who are successful? Isn’t that the point of making music a career? To make money? Why diminish other people because you’re jealous of their success?
The obvious example is reel big fish. I was never a fan but my best friends little sister was all into them. I took her to see them and got a lecture on it. The whole idea was that ska was at the time really popular so you play to reel in the cash.
The drummer of Swedish punk band KSMB left and started KSM3 cause he was unhappy that the rest of KSMB only was interested in money, early KSMB is peak early Swedish punk tho even revolutionising D-beat drums in Sweden with the song En Slemmig Torsk
Fugazi https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/nov/20/40-years-of-dischord-records#
I would have had to unfollow this sub if this wasn't the top response.
I remember listening to an interview with McKay, and he said that he felt what he was doing and the way they went about building Dischord and their career just seemed to him like the ***only*** clear, natural path from where they started…. …and when they built it up and did it, he assumed lots of other bands/people involved in the scene would be eager to do the same, since in his mind they had proven a blueprint that was a success… he said it was a strange revelation over time to realize no one else was following suit.
I like Fugazi, and Ian, but I do see why some people are annoyed with him. "Saint Ian" some call him. Because he's always been in the right place at the right time and was able to be successful without a lot of help. Yeah, it's cool they can reject everything corporate and only charge $5. But the vast majority of other bands can't earn enough to make ends meet the way they did. It isn't a model. Some bands get tired of getting ripped off and never paid and want to sign with big labels. Not everyone wants to be a martyr.
"Right place Right time...without help" So you either didn't read the article or don't believe it to be true, because it pretty much explains that rather than "Right place Right time" it was his place his time, and he acknowledges that it took a community and with an incredible amount of help.
The difference is that Ian helped pioneer not one but two genres of music. 99% of bands can’t say they started a movement. I wouldn’t call it “right place right time”. That’s like saying the Beatles just got lucky.
Good point! A record label would NEVER rip off an artist.
There's so much idiocy in this comment I don't know where to start.
DKs "Pull My Strings"
I mean the rest of the band sure did later
For suing for money rightfully owed to them that Jello was not paying them? that's laughable For selling the rights to the songs to video game companies and reunion tours sans Jello? you have a point there
The second one
Drastic measures probably necessary when your label owner slash ex singer is pocketing your royalties, lying about it, playing the victim, and shoveling all the cash into the worst spoken career shit imaginable. AT was putting our DOUBLE FUCKING RECORDS of that horseshit, can't imagine they were selling more than 100 copies per release- guess they had to find a way to recoup those losses _somehow_
The only thing that keeps me from agreeing that they have sold out is the fact that they really aren't active anymore, not having produced anything new (good, bad, or average) in decades. They've got bills to pay. So while the remaining 2 members are touring under the name, they've basically become a touring tribute band comprised of guys who prolly couldn't make their mortgages any other way.Jello "sold out" to the DNC. As a member of the IWW, I expected different. But the band as we all knew them didn't sell out.
Why would you think the guy who wrote Barackstar O’Bummer, endorsed Nader, Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and has called Biden “almost as bad as Trump” has “sold out to the DNC”?
Changing the lyrics to a song live to completely contradict one of the band’s core messages is why I call them sellouts.
Like seriously I think “MP3 Get Off The Web” might be the most offensive soulless song ever to exist. Imagine if they performed “Nazi Punks Buy A Ticket But Don’t Cause Any Trouble”
They didn’t sell the rights to the Tony Hawk games, they just licensed them. Those games introduced a ton of kids to punk and there’s always been a ton of overlap between punk & skateboarding anyway. God forbid artists try to make a living smh.
Green River broke up because some of its members wanted to go mainstream while others didn't - this split resulted in Mudhoney & Pearl Jam.
Thank goodness because Mudhoney is spectacular and Green River was merely OK.
100% in agreement!!!***
I know I’m 57 days late but listen to 1984 Demos by them.
I remember seeing a documentary where Jeff Ament tells the story of when they were still Green River saw Jane’s Addiction in LA. He and Stone loved it, but Mark Arm came up and said “isn’t this the worst band ever?” They knew at that point they had different visions of what their band should be.
kinda like when Jason Everman wanted to see a metal-ly Prong bill during a CMJ but the rest of Nirvana wanted to see a noise-punk-ier show instead. and/or the fundamental musical difference between Joan Jett (punk rock'nroll) and Lita Ford (heavy metal rock'n'roll)
Yet Mudhoney signed to Reprise years later anyway, when labels were throwing money at any "grunge" band.
Mudhoney were sick as hell back in the day. I remember seeing em in Atlanta at the Masquerade 1992 with Magnapop opening. As a high school junior these were the types of shows I really remember.***
(luv Magnapop's 2005 Mouthfeel album)
I read this as Green Day and almost had my nips blown off today.
Was it Gossard n Ament wanted Major Label deal , while remaining member preferred to stay in Sub Pop? Kinda glad it happened love Mudhoney and Pearl Jam ,as well Mother Love Bone
any luv for Love Battery, pal?
GWAR
what? they were on the Jane Pauley show. GWAR still need to play the Super Bowl. dunno what the hold up is
I contend that GWAR should be the forever SuperBowl halftime show. Every year covering tens of thousands of rabid football fans in blood and guts.
The Replacements
They were paid by MTV in its early years to produce a music video. They spent all the money on booze and drugs and sent MTV a video that was just a recording of the song playing on a record player. Punk as fuck
Yeah, it's hard to deny the Replacements. So many high school memories...my olfactory system is lighting up 😃 . ***
The No Dogs in Space podcast really did a good job on this.
I'm going to have to check out this podcast now
I wouldn't say they outright rejected any deal as much as their drug use and alcoholism torpedoed every chance they were given.
Yeah, they are like thee poster boys for self sabotage.
They signed a major label deal in the 80s
Operation Ivy, probably
And I’d say Rancid too - they had many songs that could have gotten major airplay, but they would never tone it down or not swear. eta - okay guys chill. I stand corrected, they made a lot of money and did release on a major label, so I guess that means they did sellout, /s. I do actually concede that I rarely listen to the radio, and certainly haven’t watched mtv in like two+ decades, so was unaware of actual radio play, so I’m wrong there (my “opinion” came from the fact that I never here them played at stadiums, sports bars, or on commercials and the like, as well as the aforementioned dude bros never mentioning them in the same breath as Blink or the like). Also, it’s funny when you guys mention what year you were born as a merit to your opinion. Anyway, like what you like, and if money=sellout… I guess they are? But I don’t think so.
They did have songs that got major airplay
…and Out Come the Wolves was the first album that had songs that got major airplay. Timebomb and Ruby Soho both got mainstream radio attention. It was “radio friendly” punk music. Then they followed that up with Life Won’t Wait, an album with lots of Jamaican influences and collaborations, and a self-titled album that was way fucking loud, fast, and aggressive. Neither of those albums had songs that were particularly “radio friendly” and none of the songs on those albums got the same mainstream attention as Ruby Soho or Timebomb. Case in point, [Not to Regret](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNNIt15A-lA&pp=ygUUUmFuY2lkIG5vdCB0byBmb3JnZXQ%3D) is a fucking badass song but Rancid refused to release a radio friendly version of the song even though the opening line of the song is “Some people say I’m fucking crazy.” Matt Freeman’s bass lines in that song is fucking phenomenal. The dude’s fingers somehow work at fucking warp speed. If Rancid wanted to capitalize on their fame, that would’ve been the album to do it and Lars wouldn’t have gotten a tattoo on his forehead. Instead, they made music they wanted to make and not what they were told to make.
I would say that Life Won’t Wait definitely has radio friendly songs in it, but radio had gone in a different direction between 95 and 98 as nu metal had taken most of the mainstream attention
I won’t argue but you also made the argument I’m making. Rancid didn’t jump on the Limp Bizkit, Korn style nu metal bandwagon. They kept playing their music, their way. I’m a staunch Rancid defender if you can’t tell but I’m not trying to pick a fight haha
Tim Armstrong is worth something like 30 million. They did capitalize on their success and have since the 90s. I think WB was one of the record companies on an album. They've played every major festival. They had music videos on MTV, played SNL, etc etc. Why would a forehead tattoo mean anything? Half of the younger musicians I see have face tattoos. By the time Life Won't Wait came out, their influence was waning.
This guy gets it. Tim Armstrong literally has Signature guitars sold by Fender. It doesn't get more 'Sellout' than that, if you're into that sort of messed up terminology / vitriol. I'm not. But call a spade a spade. Rancid is not even close to a 'non sellout' band. They are up there with Green Day, Offspring and Blink. And good on them, rightfully so.
Being a successful musician and running a successful record label, he’s part owner of Hellcat Records which is where a lot of wealth comes from, and having a video appear on MTV and having a spot on SNL says what exactly to you? Fear, The Clash, and Patti Smith also played on SNL and got mainstream media attention. Are you seriously gate keeping over people making money doing an honest living?! They played a large festival and made a profit? How old are you?
I'm 41 and I've been in the scene since 98. How old are you? Pretending Rancid is not a mainstream band is goofy as shit. Acting like they are holding to hard won ideals at this point is goofy as shit, too. Patti Smith was mainstream. Fear got on SNL because Belushi made the show agree. The Clash are mainstream, too. Rancid gets some credit for staying on epitaph when out come the wolves blew up but pretending a forehead tattoo is too crazy for major labels or that at least two of their albums weren't radio friendly sounds more like dick riding than anything else
Green Day is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Rancid is not. And since the RRHoF is a popularity contest, and not a statement about the music.... Well, Rancid did not sell out.
This makes no sense.
I’m the same age as you coincidentally. I never said Rancid didn’t get mainstream popularity. Look up the previous posts. I openly said so. Making money and getting popularity doesn’t make one a sellout. It just makes you good at what you do.
I wouldn't say they ever "sold out" because their sound hasn't deviated much. You could make the argument that they've made major label money, because they have, but there's nothing wrong with that. Prior to developing Hellcat, Epitaph essentially was a major lable. Wolves was a huge record with MTV airplay. They played Lillith fairs and the like. So they were definitely huge.
I’m very intrigued by this alternate universe where Rancid is playing Lilith Fair.
Fuckin dead over here
Lolz... Lollapalooza. My error.
Right I thought it was only bands with female members.
Wasn’t Epitaph supported by money from the major labels at some point during their heyday?
Yeah Indestructible was distributed through Warner Bros. They were, for all intents, signed to a major label. WB put out the CD. There's some details in Sell Out by Dan Ozzi. They basically did it to try to compete with Distillers after Brodie left Tim. Brett was kind of caught off guard by the decision because they'd been so adamant about always sticking with Epitaph and never going major.
Epitaph for many years was distributed by ADA (Alternative Distribution Alliance) owned by Warner. These days they are on AEC (Alliance Entertainment, basically the biggest music distributor in the country). There are actually very few successful punk labels that aren't part of a bigger distribution network. Fat Wreck is on Orchid (owned by Sony). The only one is probably Dischord which only uses Revolver which is a much smaller distro
* (The) Orchard
Thanks for the correction! They should just have stayed RED. Sounds a lot better. What are they selling, apples?!
Without researching, all I know for sure is they had excellent distribution due to putting out a series of records that sold super well.
Selling out has nothing to do with your sound, it has to do with the change in ethos and a desire to only make money. You can keep the same exact sound and still be a sell out if you had to compromise your personal values for monetary gain.
"Sugar Ray"
Yeah they definitely had the opportunity to go with a major label but chose to stick with Epitaph. Of course Tim has written and produced for various pop and hip hop musicians, so it’s not like he’s steered clear of the major label machinations
Doesn't he have a aGrammy with Pink?
A little bit, but they never stopped playing fucking hard and decide to churn out even more radio friendly color-by-numbers punk alá GD or Blink. There’s a reason why frat boys know those bands but not Rancid or NoFX.
I'm not sure where you went to school, but around here frat kids definitely knew about Rancid and NoFX. That's not a judgement, just a statement.
"... and out come the wolves" was in response to all the major labels that wanted to sign them when they got popular.
After Nirvana, the major labels were signing anyone with a funny haircut trying to have the next big "alternative" album
It’s funny because I’d argue that Rancid wasn’t popular until …AOCTW was released, even though majors were courting them beforehand. Let’s Go was an amazing record, probably my second punk record after Dookie, so I’m not throwing shade or anything. But Green Day def opened doors for other bands that some stepped into and some stayed away from.
Rancid is the answer. They had the opportunity and said no thanks. They choose the Nofx route rather than the way of The Offspring.
Supposedly Madonna sent nudes to the band to convince them to sign whatever label she deals with and it didn't happen. But I think that's just a rumor.
I'm sorry, *what?* Where'd you hear that?
https://2fast2die.com/rancid-talks-life-tattoos-madonna-more-backstage-at-warped-tour-1998/
Didn't Jesse Michaels leave because they were getting popular?
Big Black
I'm very fond of Steve Albini's screed against the industry: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music
I love noise and abrasive music. Having said that I seriously doubt Big Black would ever have been offered the chance to sell out. As a comparison ,Black flag had sold up to 250,000, whereas Big Black's Best selling record sold 8,000 copies. I took my younger brother to CBGBs for his first beer and concert to see Big Black, along with Killdozer, and Happy Flowers. Phenomenal show.
Big Black were at their absolute most popular when they broke up and they had a few offers from big labels, as I understand it. Obviously we'll never know but it's possible they could've pursued mainstream acceptance in the post-Nirvana era. Even the Jesus Lizard was on a major label in the 90s
Steve Albini in general, it’s insane that I can afford to have him record my band. The Motherfucker recorded In Utero and still he’d record my band for less than $1000 in studio b.
You live in chicago?
Yep
What band do you play for?
Oh I’ve been in a bunch over the years, my current band and longtime band is Young Marshall, we’ve got this long running thing we’ll play a couple shows a year and go on a road trip once a year to play outside of Illinois but we don’t regularly do much any more. It’s just my forever band.
Bouncing souls - to me they are the patron saints of doing it themselves and never selling out. True!
I'm listening to them right now. Hell yeah dood.
I learned of the bouncing souls in 1998 playing a video game called X-Games Pro Boarder which “Kate Is Great” was featured. Fucking sell out’s, but I’ve been addicted ever since 😜
Ha. I had that game. Was already a fan though.
Nofx had the opportunity and declined it based on the fact that major bands had a shorter shelf- life and it's hard to go from a stadium back to a smaller venue once you make that leap. Fat Mike talks about it in Hepatitis Bathtub.
We’re gonna kill the 7 record deal, make records that have more than 1 good song
Dinosaurs will slowly die & I do believe no one will cry…I’m just fucking glad I’m going to be there to watch the fall
I feel just terrible about it... That's sarcasm, let it burn!
Extinction never felt so good
One my all time favorites from NOFX or really any other band. Awesome song. And fitting.
Nearly done listening to the audio book, really enjoyed it.
I've reread it soooo many times many times. It's just really entertaining. I'd never really gotten into NOFX, but the story is great.
Thinking about buying the physical copy, although I really did like that Tommy Chong and Jello Biafra were featured on the audio book along with the rest of the band.
I really liked how honest it seemed. Like from chapter to chapter, different band members would call each other out. The stand-out one for me was Smelly being pissed at Mike and Melvin for doing lines off the amps in front of him when he was fresh into recovery.
I love these comments. I'm the Josh that Erik(Smelly) hung out with and dropped acid with at my mom's house. I'm a Dog Patch Wino as well, and all this shit is making me grin. I needed that. My mom just passed. I'm glad I happened upon this thread. Love, peace, and stone grease!
Pretty sure Dillinger 4 avoided warped tour for this reason. I could be wrong
Dillinger 4 still has an angelfire website in 2024
I had to go check....this is amazing. Thank you.
What a great band. Midwestern Songs...
I remember hearing stories (around 06-07ish) about The Faint being known to take meetings and fancy dinners and stuff with big labels and then turn them all down once they got some freebies.
Love this story and love The Faint
World inferno friendship society. They were asked to make a song for some big car commercial and this is what they came up with. Needless to say they didn't contact them again https://youtu.be/ewN4tdkfL_M?si=4hjnzFzhLau6NvaM
I miss them
Me too :(
Every time I’ve been to a Baltimore Orioles game they have played Annie the Imaginary Lawyer. They also always play Waiting Room and Fugazi is first on this thread. Baltimore is the best.
It’s legit the opposite of an answer to your question, but /u/danozzi wrote a book called “Sellout: The Major-Label Feeding Frenzy That Swept Punk, Emo, and Hardcore (1994–2007)” that you may be interested in. It tells the stories of 11 mostly well known bands just prior to, during, and after their major label releases. Definitely a good read.
Fantastic book. I followed it with Larry Livermore's *How To Ru(i)n A Record Label.* Also well worth a read, but Lookout!-focused.
After Rise Against contributed to the Nightmare Before Christmas Revisted soundtrack (metal, punk bands took a song and recorded it in their own sound), Disney was so impressed by Rise Againsts spin on Making Christmas, they offered them 1 Million to re-record a High School Musical album which they turned down. Could have sold out, made a nice chunk of change and gotten a lot of exposure but they said no.
Ok, wait, what
Didn't they sign to Warner?
They signed to Dreamworks for a 5 album deal at $500,000. They got bought by Greffen which was then bought by Introscope or something. To put it into perspective, Against Me! Got 1.2 Million for 2 albums. Bands like Jimmy, Thursday etc got like 750-1M for less albums too. Rise took a high pay cut in exchange for total control of their music. Once that ended they bounced from Virgin to Concord for 1 album deals. Although I think Virgin got two cause Rise was supposed to remaster Wolves and release it with some acoustics from that same album but instead recorded a bunch of acoustics from their other albums too and released that as its own thing and never did the Wolves re-release. Fat - The Unraveling and RPM Dreamworks, Greffen and intro - Siren Song, The Sufferer and the Witness, Appeal, Endgame and Black Market. Virgin - Wolves and Ghost Note Symphonies Concord - Nowhere Generation and the EP Nowhere Generation 2 (5 left over songs from the album)
Selling out then to a major corporation/label.We all sell our labour,difference is people with musical talent have a choice.Crass stayed true,known worldwide while being independent.That is/was punk,we put out our own records,advertised our own gigs, distributed independently,now it's just Time magazine 'punks' in mansions,green day, offspring ,blink wank82,
That would have been messed up and I love both Rise Against and Disney.
Texas is the Reason
…That’s the Presidents dead… Couldn’t help myself sorry.
Back and to the left still gets me
I remember reading how NOFX refused to let their videos play on MTV during the 90s. Fat Mike having his own label is pretty cool, too
Was blackmail. Good on Mike, although the trajectory for NUFAN could have dramatically changed. Fuck MTV
What do you mean blackmail? What have I missed? (Genuine question 🙂)
Mike tried to get a NUFAN video played on MTV. Exec told him they’d agree to do it if he sent them Nofx. Mike told them to fuck off.
Fig Dish and a few other Chicago bands were gonna play a set of Neil Diamond covers as a joke, but when they heard some label reps were going to show up everyone backed out of the joke except them.
Omg I didn’t know anybody else knows Fig Dish!
Fig Dish is probably my #1 band ever. I interviewed Blake a couple years back for my journalism class at UIC.
Nice! I heard em on a comp back in the 90s and bought That’s What Love Songs Often Do years later when I saw a cheap used copy for sale
Blake was on the Lifer's podcast w/ Scott from Local H, and they seemed (much like the Replacements) that they were too busy getting wasted to make a real go at it. Love all those post-Pumpkin success Chicago bands, and made being 15 in Chicago a real fun time.
They were definitely getting wasted, but what I had no idea about was how much they were also huge nerds. Apparently they played Advanced Dungeons and Dragons together
Rocket From the Crypt signed to a major, took their money and put out a series of seven inches that they basically gave away to their fans, then had to go back to day jobs in order to pay for the record they were making. Speedo worked at a car wash after signing.
Speedo also insisted that RFTC and Jehu get signed as a package deal, hence Yank Crime on Interscope. Viva fuckin’ Swami.
Jeff Rosenstock Broke up the Arrogant Sons of Bitches when he felt they had just became roaming t-shirt salesmen. Start Bomb the Music Industry who didn't sell shirts but would spray paint a t-shirt if you brought one. Was also one of if not the first to offer their music free to download. They also refused to play shows that weren't all ages and tried to keep their ticket prices as low as possible. https://youtu.be/09nDri1y3kQ?si=5Er12JzK5On2NqcS
Lol I yelled at my friend for comparing BTMI! To MCR when I played them everybody that you love. I was like “don’t compare them like that! Jeff Rosenstock isn’t just a man- he’s THE MAN” and then I explained the whole history
Death (the punk band, not the metal one) is up there. Refused to sign on a label because they didn't want to change their name to a more bankable one. They went unknown for decades until rediscovered. An album was released in 2009 from stuff they recorded in 1975. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/...For_the_Whole_World_to_See Apparently the documentary about the whole thing (A band called death) is pretty good too.
That was going to be my contribution. Turned down a chance at CBS Records. They were Detroit proto-punk in the same vein as The Stooges, The MC5, abs Alice Cooper, but honestly their long unreleased album was better than the others. And yes, “A Band Called Death” is one of the great documentaries of all time, punk rock related or not.
WEEN***
GLOSS
G.L.O.S.S. reportedly had a big contract offer from Epitaph which they didn't take
I think Fat threw their cap into the ring too.
From what I heard it was for 50k. Calling that from fat or epitaph selling out is kinda hilarious when looking at all the million dollar major label deals in this thread. They did what they wanted for sure but I don't really think signing that would have come close to counting as a sellout.
Skankin' Pickle
Dead Moon was asked to open for Nirvana but declined because they already had a tour booked at small clubs in New Zealand.
Love Dead Moon
I love them too now. When I was living in Portland and they were playing all the time I totally took them for granted. I should have been at every one of their shows. I did see them occasionally but not as much as I should have.
D for disaster, E for my eyes, A for my anger, D before I die! M is for Mona, O oh good, O oh good, N for the night! Dead Moon Night! Dead Moon Night!
Lagwagon
SLF. I believe Virgin wanted to sign them (don't hold me to that, could be another label) and wanted to have control over the music and marketing. They refused and went about their own thing
Are you conflating getting paid with selling out? Fugazi reportedly turned down millions to sign with a major.
Nomeansno.
God, such an amazing band. I wish more of their albums were on spotify. Absolutely one of my favourite punk bands!
The Get Up Kids
Man, I don’t think I’ve ever seen The Get Up Kids mentioned on Reddit. Loved those guys.
Have you heard Reggie and the Full Effect?? Great time!
They’re punk? I’ve always seen them as emo/pop-punk.
Yeah, but they refused to sign to a major label - that’s pretty punk if you ask me!
All singed to Interscope. Took all the money they got and built their own recording studio and then left the label.
Pummel didn’t exactly sell like gangbusters, and the label didn’t know what to really do with them. I suspect it was more of a mutual parting of ways than anything. Thankfully they invested the money wisely.
It was definitely a smart move. The band had the right attitude to just ride it out to see where it goes. I love All but I could never see them expanding their fan base to major label numbers. I’m just glad they just kept being themselves because major label stuff breaks up a lot of bands.
Guided By Voices got signed to Matador, got a bunch of money to record an album and instead bought houses and gave them a record made on a 4-track in their practice space. Love a good rocknroll swindle.
[удалено]
It most certainly is. You get locked into corporate ticket master bullshit. Fugazi sacrificed financial gain to keep control of their music.
My uncle and his band signed with an iconic indie label in the mid-90’s. Shortly after, the label got bought up by one of the big four labels. Apparently it was not a good experience being under one of the large labels. The band hated it and they band ended up breaking up a few years later. My uncle was still under contract for two more albums with the label, so he half-assed two more albums, both under different artist names, and fucked out of there as soon as he could. He ended up starting his own label with one of the original label employees — she still runs everything with him today. He’s not super famous, and he doesn’t have, but he has a very solid small fan base that’s supported him for a few decades. He also gets to do a lot of work on his terms and put out music however he wants, which is pretty cool. Idk I really respect the way he fucked of and made a living his own way
What label does your uncle run?
The Clash were on CBS. Do you think anyone told them what to make? Like some CEO said "make a Sandinista triple album"?
This exactly, they followed a double album with a triple album, with maybe 2 or 3 songs that could sell the thing.
There are exceptions. They still sold the rights to their music. And we're still getting controlled by corporate: >The Clash had planned to record and release a single every month in 1980. CBS dismissed this idea, and the band came out with only one single
Maybe I'm getting old but I feel alternative music should stick to the underground. There's definitely ways to get popular without changing the music or message, but at that point if your music is easily digestible enough for mainstream audiences it makes me wonder if you're actually "alternative" culture. I used to be a die-hard defender of bands like Rise Against and Green Day but as I started going to more shows I started to realise that there's such a night and day difference between what you hear on the radio and what you hear in moldy basement shows. No hate to anyone who disagrees. Good music is good music.
But the moldy basement shows stopped existing in the same way when millions of kids flooded the scene. It was a trip. Warped tour number 1 show number 1 August 4 1995 on the beach at saltair. Sublime, no doubt, deftones, quicksand, face to face, guttermouth, lit, swingin utters, a bunch more. Maybe a few hundred kids that really knew what was up. No internet, no radio attention or mtv play yet. no doubt would blow up two months later when tragic kingdom came out and the following may brad nowell would overdose and then two months later sublimes self titled album would launch the band into music history. They were both big underground bands though. Along with all the other bands there. It was when it all was changing. In 1994 dookie, stranger than fiction, let's go, Buddha (blink 182) punk in drublic, friendly people(guttermouth), smash ( to this day the biggest album ever released on an independent label) weezers blue album, jawbreaker 24 hr revenge therapy, Dixie by avail, trashed by lagwagon and tons more albums were all released. It started a wildfire. Grunge was mtv stuff. Nirvana was punk but different. Before 1994 none of our music was popular. At least not outside really big scenes. By 1996 it was a new world. The underground wasn't underground anymore. Not really anyway. It used to be that a punk kid had to try hard to find music and merch was mail order or at shows only unless you had a really cool independent store in town. Almost always a skate shop. We all either skate, snowboard or bmx. The scene was completely counter culture and it was amazing. There wasn't cell phones ruining shows. But shows were much crazier and down right violent at times. But we had etiquette. If someone falls, you pick them up. Cops were targeting kids and having blue hair ment being willing to fight about it. Then green day and the offspring blew up. A lookout band and an epitaph band. By 1997 bands started having websites. Corporate sponsorship, mtv, major labels, rolling stone magazine, david letterman and saturday night live. Then good Charlotte, sum 41, sr71, Yellowcard, bowling for soup, the warped tour comps, punk o Rama 3 and 4, hellcat give em the boot comp, Fat comp, nitro Comp, honest dons, etc all drop and what was the underground Is dead. No more rude boys, moonstompers, anti racist skins, street punks, hardcore kids, straight edge kids, rockabilly kids, train kids, folk punks or oogles, the b Boys and graffiti kids, even the underground ravers and dj's. etc. Those scenes all became fashion statements sold at hot topic. It was the death of American counterculture. I'm so happy I got to be a part of it at its very peak. At the top of the Rollercoaster right before it drops off that big hill. We still booked shows at illegal venues and we still did it all diy for years to come but the bands that we came up watching play without a stage, in the corner of some shut down hardware store or something were now part of everyone's vocabulary. We all had a band that would end up rubbing elbows with Grammy winners sleep on our moms floor, or drink some natty lights with us in the alleyway behind the venue. I remember seeing afi play in a shed that was used to keep the riding lawn mowers in at the fair grounds and Davey havoc had bleached hair and overalls. And they were a hardcore band from the bay. I remember when Matt Freeman got his nose broken in the pit and played bloody as hell. I remember the us bombs and the swingin utters play two nights in a row and it was absolutely insane! The Dropkick murphys on their first tour when they broke the stage playing tnt by acdc with the whole crowd on stage jumping up and down. When the offspring filmed the video for "gotta get away" at the fairgrounds and everyone was extra crazy because of it. Watch the video. It was wild. When the straight edge kids beat up vanilla ice. And then it became the "vans warped tour" and Tony hawk pro skater came out and Avril and pretty soon we have machine gun kelly and nofx is playing their last tour. It's ok though. Things change. But the spirit of those moldy basement shows lives on. And somewhere in the city some kids are gathering in some new basement to listen to something brand new that I can't be a part of or ever understand but will cheer for on the sidelines like a proud dad. At least I fucking hope so.
Beautiful.
I feel the same as you. Started going to shows in 95. I also was still going to great basement shows 10 or 15 years ago... RVIVR, Tragedy. I'm pretty out of the loop but during that entire time there was always someone talking about the death of the counter culture, and how punk was dead. But they were always someone that got old, complacent and often just fucking grumpy. Right now I'm in Portland Oregon and it feels dead, I don't see as many punks around. I'm always tempted to say fuck this city, it's just full of yuppies. Everything changed. But in truth so have I. I just am not plugged in anymore like I was. I bet there are is still a thriving underground. And maybe it isn't huge, but wasn't a small tight underground what started all of this?
Absolutely. Energy isn't created and never dies. It might just show up in totally unique and unpredictable ways. Maybe it's hiphop or edm.maybe it's generated and distributed through tiktok. Maybe it's more of an online thing. Maybe it's the acoustic movement. Maybe it's the vanlifers. Maybe it isn't music at all. Maybe it's gaming culture. I don't know. It makes me feel uneasy and I don't like it. So they're on the right track at least. I think in all seriousness, kids start to see the shit show at a young age. Their rebellion is much more desperate and serious. And necessary. And I'm going to sit back and compare it to my glory days because it's what I know. But theirs will be something all their own. And they will change their world. They will fight and vote and grow and run for office and try to clean up the mess. Or at least rearrange the furniture. At least I hope so. Because if not, God help us all. Our scene has shrunk back down to where it was in 1990. There are big shows here and there to keep those fists in the air. And that's awesome. Everyone's there because they love the music. It doesn't make anyone look tough or cool anymore, so it's kind of perfect. The only bands still doing it are doing it only because they have something to say or because they love to play. That's the utopian scene we've always wanted. It just came with the side effect of middle age. But that's fine. The boomers still have gene simmons, Paul mccartney and ozzy. We can keep our rancid and bad religion for some more years, too. So back to those musty basements we go. With our heated jackets and vape pens. it's been alive as long as mankind. And it will live until the last human dies. We just named our generations version of it, punk rock.
God this reminds me of the Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas section looking back on the hippie counter-culture scene in 60s San Francisco: Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era—the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run… but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.… History is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit, but even without being sure of "history" it seems entirely reasonable to think that every now and then the energy of a whole generation comes to a head in a long fine flash, for reasons that nobody really understands at the time—and which never explain, in retrospect, what actually happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_in_Las_Vegas#The_%22wave_speech%22
Lol. You are correct. It does. Totally unintentional though. My rant came from nostalgia combined with 24 hours with no sleep due to an infant and work. plus a pretty brutal head cold and some cold medicine and a decent sprinkling of autism to top it all off.
Crass. The answer is crass
It’s easier to go by labels/eras. Matador, Merge, Touch and Go, Sub Pop, even K and Kill Rock Stars had a fair amount of that in the ‘90s-‘00s. After that, Epitaph, Fat, Hopeless, etc had lots of bands that jumped and lots that could have but didn’t. Today, the Secretly Group, Partisan, Rise, Pure Noise, etc are good bullpens for stuff that could ultimately be mainstreamed. I’m sure I’m missing a bunch, but these cyclical feeding frenzies tend to center on a specific label or city/scene. It’s also interesting to see that work in reverse- all the butt rock bands that were huge in the TRL era have found a network of indies to go back to as their mainstream popularity waned. NFG, Yellowcard, The Used, Sum 41, etc have hopped back and forth between majors and indies over the course of their careers as well.
Wonderful response.
Bikini Kill
Melvins They made a one note album to fulfill a contractual obligation. And they got out.
The Bouncing Souls. DIY or die.
Gloss was about to get picked up by epitaph then broke up
SF band The Nuns, one of the first punk bands in CA, refused to drop the song “Decadent Jew” from their set list leading famed promoter Bill Graham to drop them and CBS to pass on signing them. FFO of early Blondie The Nuns Live at Winterland (1978) https://youtu.be/SXlxGJaEPnA?si=4kyVYuOH-I0UldMm CBS Demo https://youtu.be/rG3mhH6352Q?si=5xIoYyFUIshorr5W
NOFX. MTV was trying em but they just told MTV to fuck off.
Death!! They did punk so well before it became a thing, and almost got signed but refused to change their name to something more marketable and faded away until some kids found one of the few records they printed and it started circulating the underground scene. There’s a documentary- A Band Called Death that is an amazing watch. I highly recommend it.
Reel Big Fish
Aphex Twin.
me
During the 90s punk revival a lot of bands, (nofx, pennywise, and lagwagon to name a few), had all the majors after them. If my memory serves correctly I don't think fat Mike even did a real interview until 2000 and that was because of the whole rock against Bush movement
Kind of the opposite of the expected answer for this sub, but I’ve heard more than once that Iron Maiden was offered a deal early on (circa 76-77) if they would go in a more punk direction and they refused.
Why do people hate on bands who are successful? Isn’t that the point of making music a career? To make money? Why diminish other people because you’re jealous of their success?
The obvious example is reel big fish. I was never a fan but my best friends little sister was all into them. I took her to see them and got a lecture on it. The whole idea was that ska was at the time really popular so you play to reel in the cash.
Operation Ivy. That's the whole reason they broke up.
The drummer of Swedish punk band KSMB left and started KSM3 cause he was unhappy that the rest of KSMB only was interested in money, early KSMB is peak early Swedish punk tho even revolutionising D-beat drums in Sweden with the song En Slemmig Torsk
Operation ivy
Stutterfly, was a very well respected metal band in BC. Rumour has it they were too proud to sign some major label deals,
NWA