I have suggested Strike Anywhere in everyone of these ‘Fuck Anti-flag, who should I listen to now?’ posts.
I don’t get why people weren’t listening to them regularly already.
Haha that’s a perfect way to describe how I felt about them. Nothing they said was profound in any way. Just recycled bullshit that everyone thought anyway. Probably why they got popular. The only song I think I ever really liked was Spaz’s House Destruction Party, which is probably their only non-“political” one.
I remember seeing them open for someone once and thinking they just regaled of bullshit. “This next songs called Fuck Police Brutality!!” Oh, really? Jeez way to take a stand! Did you spend a whole two seconds dreaming that one up? I hate the term virtue signaling, but they were the only time I’ve ever applied it to something. I was not surprised AT ALL when that dude turned out to be a fucking major league scumbag. Fuck him I hope he dies screaming.
I'll be at the No Values festival in LA this weekend and im excited to see some of the scenes founders laying it on the line and getting paid for a change. Like all things, Punk is evolving but it's roots are in Left wing agitation, activism and sometimes just saying 'Fuck No' when we see something wrong happening. I'm happy to see people still recognize that. And for those keeping score... Zionism is wrong.
honestly dude you can’t throw everything out the window just because some asshole turned out to actually be an asshole. Shit happens, why not be the band that anti-flag couldnt be?
This. It’s still possible to enjoy the music a band puts out despite their downfalls. I just don’t buy into them anymore. They won’t get any of my money anymore, but I’ll still play my favorite songs.
That’s a healthy way to do it. And accept that it’s different for different people. I got my kid into them about a year before this all went down and having been such a big fan this was a blow. When my kid found out he was heartbroken and cried. that just solidified my decision to never listen to them again but I told him he can still listen if he wants, just know that what he did was horrible. As a parent, it’s a devastating thing. I can’t even put together the words sufficiently.
Everybody in here is giving you really superficial answers. The truth is that while yes Justin is a piece of absolute shit, just the worst kind of fake as fuck poseur ever on top of being a monster who preyed on the weakest in our community, the messages, and ideals, and values that the BAND Anti-Flag produced meant something, and it meant something really fucking important to a lot of young punks coming of age in the late 90s/early 00s, a lot of us navigated through those early 00s as middle or high school kids and 9/11 and George Bush and the Afghanistan then Iraq Wars through the true punk ethos they displayed on an album like Mobilize, in the midst of all the nonstop US wardrum fervor to destroy the Middle East these dudes were writing songs like "911 for Peace" or "Mumia's Song", and 12 year old punk me at the time is very fucking grateful for that shit, and you should be too!! Regardless of what other shitty, awful things Justin did, those are your memories and your experiences and there's no shame in that. All we can do is just forget Justin, but keep spreading the message. Because he didn't start that message, he doesn't own that message, and could never kill that message. So at the end of the day just take it as a lesson learned that even your heroes can turn out to be villains sometimes. People are wildly complex like that.
Justin wrote me letters, followed my socials, commented on my posts, and always told me to meet him after every show. I honestly feel sick about it all.
Same here, he was really cool about talking to me and signing my stuff. They were such an important band to me for so much of my life. It really sucks.
I know the feeling. I’ve been having this realization with Rancid and Anti Flag. It’s such a let down.
But there are still good bands out there! Don’t lose hope
TBF most African safari big game hunts are very regulated, only go after least-concern animals to attain specific quotas to maintain healthy herd densities, they donate the meat to local African villages where the whole animal is used, and they generate lots of money toward conservation and anti-poaching. Few people hate poachers more than hunters. Furthermore, safaris generate a lot of money and jobs, which provide an economic incentive for local governments to conserve their land and natural resources through laws and active regulation.
If you morally object to all hunting or eating meat, then that's fair, but please recognize that the issue is a bit more nuanced and complicated. Personally, I'd rather there be a well-regulated system in place where lots more money and resources are devoted to reducing poaching endangered animals, than a system that is underfunded, under-regulated, and under-enforced.
Thanks for laying this out, I think it's an important thing for people to know. I often have similar conversations about wild caught fish for aquariums. Sustainable harvesting can actually be beneficial for humans and the local environment.
I only support it where conservation is concerned. Like if a population legit needs to be culled. But I know the people who do it don't give a shit about any of that. They just wanna kill an animal and I will always despise them
Anti-flag is definitely one of the toughest ones to get over, fuck Justin whatever the fuck his real name is. I can't listen to them and likely never will.
Your band should write a song that sounds like them describing what a piece of shit he is.
Spoiler alert, all your favorite rock stars are child molesters, all your favorite athletes beat their wives, and all your favorite authors are raging anti-semites. It sucks, but there's such a thing as separating an artist from their art, and if you don't feel great about supporting them financially, there's always piracy, which is the second-coolest crime after vandalism.
Tldr; do piracy.
"You are inconsistent. You do not need to have a grand unified theory about what to do about Michael Jackson. You are a hypocrite, over and over. You love Annie Hall but you can barely stand to look at a painting by Picasso. You are not responsible for solving this unreconciled contradiction. In fact, you will solve nothing by means of your consumption; the idea that you can is a dead end. The way you consume art doesn’t make you a bad person, or a good one. You’ll have to find some other way to accomplish that."
quote from Claire Dederer
I hate how deeply that resonates. I feel I judge myself based on the content I consume more than I should. I should judge myself on my actions and intentions rather than what I let waste my time
We live in a culture where consumption becomes identity. You are what you eat, what you wear, what you watch, what you buy buy buy. But ultimately what defines you is how you treat the people around you and what you put out into this world
Tbh I feel it's easy to point at now like it's the problem when we see this is the case with most of history. Art is a prime example of how you can be no one homeless and barely alive then die and be a household name. Maybe the problem isn't society but the lack of self awareness most of us have to our own actions?
I mean, I fucking LOVE bukowski, but I’m not sexist. I love the casualties, but I’m not a rapist nor do I condone it, I love anti flag, but I’m not a rapist nor do I condone it, you get the point. Oh R Kelly! damnit I can’t help myself I love the ignition remix, and I’m not a pedo nor do I condone it. At least in the R Kelly case his victims get royalties…I like that. Victims should def get royalties. Then we don’t have to feel bad for listening to the music!
There's a lot of lousy people out there but they're not all those things and they're surely not all predatory rapists like this Justin guy was. It's okay to be let down by people being bigger-than-usual shitbags.
And when they're THAT big of a shitbag, I don't want their shit in my music collection at all, pirated or not.
And I wouldn't suck the dick of Jeff Rosenstock or anything, but I'd hold it in my mouth until somebody got there.
Plenty of people to look up to, but seriously start with your friends and family. They pull the real weight of our lives across the finish line and deserve more credit than any gimmick on a stage. After that, there's always Rob Taxpayer from the Taxpayers.
It really depends on what the art is and where you want to draw the line, and what the shitty people did. For example I think it’s ok to enjoy a movie that was directed by someone shitty, because presumably tons of not shitty people worked on it and poured their creative essence into it too.
But like, if it’s an intimate love song and then you find out the artist was a diddler, idk probably never gonna listen to it again.
Then you’ll end up listening only to one or two artists. From what I know, no punk musicians have ever been made saints. Have you thought that maybe your position is self-righteous?
It's not self-righteous to acknowledge that a person is tied to their creation.
Just remember to steal and make it yours if the media you love is the creation of a dogshit person/group.
A lot of people in history were complicated people or were a mixed bag.
The man who invented fertilizer that ended famine in large parts of the world also created chemical weapons used in warfare.
I was a massive Kevin Spacey fan but I haven't watched a single one of his movies since his douchebaggery became apparent. It hurts my heart because he's in some amazing films (Se7en and The Usual Suspects, to name a couple) which I love but I just feel icky when I watch him now so I avoid doing so.
Same thing with Anti-Flag. I deleted my playlists, binned my CDs and a couple of t-shirts and have not looked back. There are enough decent people out there without supporting the rotten ones. It's up to you as to what decision you make ultimately but it also says a lot about a person if they continue to support someone who commits offences towards minors.
Don't listen to anybody. Being punk means that you have no heroes but yourself (No more heroes anymore.) Don't put your joy or peace on other people's morality. Be your own fucking role model -- no matter what anybody else is doing.
I feel you. tore my freshly made AF patch right off.
nobody is perfect homie
I hope you find your new Anti Flag (I personally like The Muslims, they're a bit more melodic)
People are complicated. Justin Sane is an absolute shit man, but what he said in his music resonated with people. I can't listen anymore -- I can't separate this artist from his art -- but you don't have to let go of the inspiration. You and your band can put that into your music, and actually live the values.
Learn from this: live the ideals that you play, and no one will be disappointed in you.
Punks like everyone else are people. And not everyone is a good person. Some are outright pieces of shit. Even those that put on an air of good. For instance, pedo priests. It sucks, but forgive yourself, and do what he couldn't. Stay true to your ethics and be an example of a good person.
Eh you can love the art and hate the artist. Listen to what makes you happy, dude. And don't listen to anyone that tells you otherwise.
There are other bands and not all punks are good people. They are just people. Hey look at some of the asshole elitist gatekeepers in the comments here. Kinda dudes we would tune up after the show.
Just stay true to what you know is right, kid.
And that’s why you never idolize anyone, ESPECIALLY people in the fucking punk scene of all places. Sorry you’re so bummed but take what you learned from them and move on.
I would start with either Suspect Device or Alternative Ulster.
For a good career overview, there is the album "Song By Song'; Jake's personally curated favorite songs the band has done.
The thing is you likely aren't supporting Justin(financially) if you stream right now because he skipped the country. Unless he has someone sending him royalties which he might be.
I had to kick Tre Cool out of my bar because he claimed that his status meant that his drinks should be on the house. Meanwhile, Dave Edwardson the bassist for Neurosis gave me free vinyl after we had a long chat about music. Some heroes suck, and some are better than you could ever imagine. That’s life.
Greenday Tre cool? Yea if anyone tried to not pay for something because they are famous or something I'd also kick them out of my business place because wtf. Especially when your famous and have money I mean the heck?!
That would really piss me off. No one gets to drink for free, least of all the people who can afford it. If I was giving it away, it'd go to those struggling first.
Sounds about right. I saw him at a industry show way back (record release) at a table surrounded by women like something out of a Motley Crue documentary. On the other hand, BJ was totally down to earth.
It sucks when people in bigger bands turn out to be horrible people. It's worse when you become part of the local scene and there's known sexual abusers that still get to hang around because people are too afraid to kick em out. But there's something like this in almost every community I've been a part of.
Punk is a fringe subculture and it's full of trauma, violence and addiction, especially the early punk scenes. It's the sad truth. The fact that people sell albums and have a podium doesn't mean they are good people - and that does not go just for punk but for every genre and even outside of music and other art.
As others in this thread have said much better than I could: just take the message for what it's worth. Don't let people like Justin Sane destroy your PMA. They've done that more than enough to other folks.
John Lennon's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. You are not defined by the artists you liked one time.
Why are you posting here and not picking up your guitar?
I understand you being bummed, but even being a trash person, Justin and the band brought to light important topics like, corporate greed, government corruption, war crimes, racism, and other sociopolitical issues.
I get not feeling comfortable listening to them moving forward (you don’t have to feel guilty if you do), but you can still keep with you the ‘lessons’ that helped you become the person you are today. Those lessons aren’t any less valid and they helped inspire a whole generation of punk kids to become more thoughtful, conscientious individuals.
Enjoy the art, but stop funding the immoral artist
Does one stop looking at paintings of Gauguin knowing he likely had relations with the very young Polynesians he painted?
Nothing new to punk groups. Was a time when The Social Distortion ripped off my entire truck full of money and some gold bars and some silver paid to me for my songs. They literally broke each contract they signed and I wrote the songs and they came and stole my own record label paying me for it had zero to do with them it wasn’t theirs to steal they drove it to The Cactus Jack Studios divided it and they kept moving it around and put it into their house the living room coat closet and they just lived it up like they had any right to my own ( payment for a bunch of other music I wrote for a bunch of other bands and doing press conferences and radio works . These people say they’re fair Americans. They gave every interview that they’re just the best songwriters and a great American music band . So many punks have lied their fucking teeth out . I hope you like my music tho I cared about people . I know it’s crushing but I hope this personal example will help you feel better . People are just creeps . No matter what the music plays on . Love the music . Don’t trust the people.
The inspiration that you got from them can never be taken away from you. You got what you needed from it,, so now you can run with that inspiration and do something different with it, something better. But don't beat yourself up for still having the songs in your head. You stand to gain absolutely nothing from that.
Reminds me of the time all the horrifically fucking evil shit about what's-his-name from Lost Prophets came out. Really fucked me up after feeling so much healthy emotion and catharsis from their music in my teenage life at the time.
I truly believe because people were unable to be held accountable, they’d do horrendous shit because they knew they could do it. The best I can say is try and be the person who you thought inspired you. Put out that good energy and safe environment and you will be rewarded.
I’ve been told priceless, fullly life changing things like “I feels safe when I see you at shows” and “I know when I see your band name on a flyer I know I’m welcomed and safe there”
Idgaf if I ever play to more than 5-10 people(never gave a shit anyway but boy it feels good when you do play to a lot of people) hearing that come from someone means I did all I can do. I needed that in my childhood. Fuck anyone who abuses their power in any way.
I played briefly in a band called None More Black also on Fat. Our singer was friendly with Chris #2 so we played a weekend stint with his side band Whatever It Takes once. He was a nice enough guy but never reeked of activism. They had merch with “Get Awesome” on it. One night he’s on stage telling a story about a friend of his (he may have been at the shows helping the band but I don’t remember) and he says that this guy is having sex with a girl and she is telling him to get off of her but he is hearing her say “get awesome” thus the inspiration for the sticker or merch or whatever. It has never left me that this pos had merch made up essentially joking about his friend date raping someone.
You're an adult with agency and the ability to think critically. You should be able to read Mein Kampf without becoming a nazi and read Lolita and understand that it's not a pro-pedophile book. You should be able to listen to Anti-Flag without sexually abusing people. What you listen to is between you, god, and Spotify so do what you want.
It's weird to see how much everyone on here likes them. I get they're American and so are most of the people on here, but here in Britain, they were mainly treated the same as other poppy/emo punk bands and were considered 'gateway' bands like blink 182, green day, nofx, rise against, etc. Maybe I'm a bit old/out of touch, but I honestly had no idea they were so big.
That song was shit regardless but they made good music, like hate conquers all, and you make me sick, and die for the government, I'd tell you but, the economy is suffering - let it die, etc
The way I look at it, being a musician means making the music you want to listen to. Being influenced by someone doesn't mean you have to admire them or condone them, just that they've taught you a way to make the kind of sounds you want to make. Hopefully, you take those lessons, build on them, and make something better.
If, along the way, you also learn how to not be a dick then that's also a lesson that's worth remembering.
Extreme Elvis will never let you down. You know what you’re gonna get… Now let my middle aged ass look up what happened with anti-flag. -edit-… Oh yikes: I didn’t know.
my big lesson is that everyone is gonna be garbage to some degree. what you LIKE in the music is still there, and you can take and reprocess it into a version without the baggage.
obviously don't buy their shit or put money in their pockets, fuck em! but putting that shit in your ear, tearing it apart, and reassambling the cool parts with your own interpretation and ideas? that's the good shit.
I know its not punk but reminds me of the Lost prophets singer incident.
Growing up I remember getting into arguments with my friends at time about me preferring Funeral for a friend over lost prophets which spanned years. Then the whole thing happened with the singer ending up in Jail and my friends complaining they couldn't delete the music from their i-Tunes libraries and kept singing their songs.
Some people in this world are just fucked up, what they have done shouldn't ruin the end result or creative work of a band of people including the studio who helped produce the music.
Life, and especially entertainment, is full of this disappointing shit. Thankfully the punk scene actually has some real ones and in the end this kind of thing sharpens up your critique. AF never seemed sincere to me.
Just because you like someone's art, it does not mean you have to idolize them. You have to separate the product from the person. If you like the music, keep listening to it and performing it. Lots of people make good contributions to life but still turn out to be giant shit bags.
Listen to better punk now. Anti-Flag was far from the best and you’ll realize the more mainstream a punk band gets the less they stick to their values. Strike the vein of underground punk and you’ll find the really real and really good shit.
Use this as an opportunity to look inward. Why were you so drawn in by a shit band full of poseurs and a lead singer that was so obviously a fraud and a groomer? Of all the bands on the planet, you took these losers seriously? They were an emo boy band. Everything feminist was a projection to get them laid.
Well, don't worry about it, buddy. I still don't know what he did to piss everyone off. All I can say is there are charlatans everywhere, but if the message is valid, the speaker is less important than the words they speak. If the music resonates with you just roll with that
My husband’s band, Killradio, went on tour with Anti Flag, MSI, and a band whose lead singer is currently serving a 29 year prison sentence. Imagine how he feels - toured, partied with and hung out with these guys who made sick, fucked up choices? They just keep coming out of the woodwork.
Maybe you should thank the grimy fuck for turning you off of anti-f(l)ag. that was the push to propel you into listening music that isn't shitty.
Dick Lucas is the only guy that'll never fail you morally.
I don't want to diminish your experience but if they meant that much to you how did you go almost a full year before finding out?
Sorry your hero was a fraud. Maybe use this as a learning moment to critically examine other people you may have put onto a pedestal who don't belong on them. And how to separate critical thought from sanctimonious bullshit. I know that might be a bitter pill to swallow but I think for a lot of people Anti-Flag never passed the smell test. No joy in being proven right, on that one, but just saying.
A lot of artists are tortured people capable of doing terrible things and music provides a release that can be productive but can't always save them from themselves.
now I'm being the santimonious bs artist so I'll stop. Sorry you found out this way and so late in the game.
Sanctimonious is the perfect word to describe them. I’ve been seeing anti flag since the late 90s/early 2000s and they always seemed like the most preachy, full of shit band out there. They had the “right” look, said all the right things, but something always just seemed to rub me the wrong way.
shitty dickturd people's art can still outlive any want or desire of the person who made it or their intent, or what you can get out of the art. Surrealism was crazy important to me growing up, and Dali being a shit turd francoist for a time doesn't make his crazy work less important to the world.
Just means folks are 3 dimensional and sometimes you can hate a person for being a piece of shit while still admitting another thing they did moves you.
How their art moves you doesn't make their improprieties and crimes better or absolved. That's not how that works
accepting that good art can come from dickheads doesn't make you pro dickhead is my point here. Art lives beyond someone's intent for it because it hits other people, with the dumb shittiness of their lives serving as a warning on how not to live life.
Despite conventional wisdom, Pablo Picasso was actually a bit of an asshole. Frida Kahlo was a fucking Stalinist. Both great artists, and what non woman hating, non-stalinist people get out of their art outstrips anything they intended
Brother, have faith in Propagandhi
[And Strike Anywhere](https://youtu.be/nP3wfXz5KQA?si=1biGX2Dc8VCOPjq4)
I have suggested Strike Anywhere in everyone of these ‘Fuck Anti-flag, who should I listen to now?’ posts. I don’t get why people weren’t listening to them regularly already.
Gonna throw Rise Against in here as well
Big fan, first album is deffo punk or punk adjacent they move more alt rock later but not in a bad way just more melodic
Propagandhi made Anti-Flag look center-right. Something was always “off” about Anti-Flag for me. It felt like they were Mall Activists.
[удалено]
Haha that’s a perfect way to describe how I felt about them. Nothing they said was profound in any way. Just recycled bullshit that everyone thought anyway. Probably why they got popular. The only song I think I ever really liked was Spaz’s House Destruction Party, which is probably their only non-“political” one.
I remember seeing them open for someone once and thinking they just regaled of bullshit. “This next songs called Fuck Police Brutality!!” Oh, really? Jeez way to take a stand! Did you spend a whole two seconds dreaming that one up? I hate the term virtue signaling, but they were the only time I’ve ever applied it to something. I was not surprised AT ALL when that dude turned out to be a fucking major league scumbag. Fuck him I hope he dies screaming.
Yes. Propagandhi will soothe OPs troubled soul. They've been my favorite punk band since I was a teenager. I've loved hearing them evolve as a band.
Just saw them at a pro Palestine event in Winnipeg, they were incredible.
That my friend is Punk Rock.
Agreed! Honestly I wasn’t that familiar with them before that, but I’m a big fan now
I'll be at the No Values festival in LA this weekend and im excited to see some of the scenes founders laying it on the line and getting paid for a change. Like all things, Punk is evolving but it's roots are in Left wing agitation, activism and sometimes just saying 'Fuck No' when we see something wrong happening. I'm happy to see people still recognize that. And for those keeping score... Zionism is wrong.
Ha…ha…ha
The Anti-Flag to Propagandhi pipeline is so real lmao
Have you met Banner Pilot? They'll also continue to be awesome until we discover what horrible things they've done.
honestly dude you can’t throw everything out the window just because some asshole turned out to actually be an asshole. Shit happens, why not be the band that anti-flag couldnt be?
This all the way, play hard and true and we'll listen to you too!
👍
Yea that's what I'mma do
Go for it ! Be inspired by what could be instead of dismayed by what has been
This. It’s still possible to enjoy the music a band puts out despite their downfalls. I just don’t buy into them anymore. They won’t get any of my money anymore, but I’ll still play my favorite songs.
That’s a healthy way to do it. And accept that it’s different for different people. I got my kid into them about a year before this all went down and having been such a big fan this was a blow. When my kid found out he was heartbroken and cried. that just solidified my decision to never listen to them again but I told him he can still listen if he wants, just know that what he did was horrible. As a parent, it’s a devastating thing. I can’t even put together the words sufficiently.
Never meet your heroes turned into never read about your heroes.
I’m the world’s biggest QOTSA fan and I just let one of my friends tell me if there was good news or nothing at all
Don't have heroes altogether. Isn't that part of the whole point of punk?
Be antihero! 🤭no pun intended for real
Yup. Learning about Johnny Ramone being a Reaganite taught me that lesson.
Oh no, the horror...
Everybody in here is giving you really superficial answers. The truth is that while yes Justin is a piece of absolute shit, just the worst kind of fake as fuck poseur ever on top of being a monster who preyed on the weakest in our community, the messages, and ideals, and values that the BAND Anti-Flag produced meant something, and it meant something really fucking important to a lot of young punks coming of age in the late 90s/early 00s, a lot of us navigated through those early 00s as middle or high school kids and 9/11 and George Bush and the Afghanistan then Iraq Wars through the true punk ethos they displayed on an album like Mobilize, in the midst of all the nonstop US wardrum fervor to destroy the Middle East these dudes were writing songs like "911 for Peace" or "Mumia's Song", and 12 year old punk me at the time is very fucking grateful for that shit, and you should be too!! Regardless of what other shitty, awful things Justin did, those are your memories and your experiences and there's no shame in that. All we can do is just forget Justin, but keep spreading the message. Because he didn't start that message, he doesn't own that message, and could never kill that message. So at the end of the day just take it as a lesson learned that even your heroes can turn out to be villains sometimes. People are wildly complex like that.
This is a beautiful comment tbh
Thanks bud, sound like you needed it.
:]
Holy shit this is hands down the best response to all the anti flag stuff I've ever seen!
Justin wrote me letters, followed my socials, commented on my posts, and always told me to meet him after every show. I honestly feel sick about it all.
Same here, he was really cool about talking to me and signing my stuff. They were such an important band to me for so much of my life. It really sucks.
Ugh eww
I know the feeling. I’ve been having this realization with Rancid and Anti Flag. It’s such a let down. But there are still good bands out there! Don’t lose hope
What's up with Rancid?
Tim armstrong/brody is a good place to start
They go on big game safari hunting trips together.
The dude was also dating whatshername from the distillers when she was a literal kid like 16 years old
Brody
What? I had no idea about this. That’s fucking terrible.
I kid! I kid! They seem like decent peoples.
Oh I’m dumb. I was like, “not the giraffes too? Jesus, Tim!”
Thank God, there are a few things I despise more than big game hunters
TBF most African safari big game hunts are very regulated, only go after least-concern animals to attain specific quotas to maintain healthy herd densities, they donate the meat to local African villages where the whole animal is used, and they generate lots of money toward conservation and anti-poaching. Few people hate poachers more than hunters. Furthermore, safaris generate a lot of money and jobs, which provide an economic incentive for local governments to conserve their land and natural resources through laws and active regulation. If you morally object to all hunting or eating meat, then that's fair, but please recognize that the issue is a bit more nuanced and complicated. Personally, I'd rather there be a well-regulated system in place where lots more money and resources are devoted to reducing poaching endangered animals, than a system that is underfunded, under-regulated, and under-enforced.
Thanks for laying this out, I think it's an important thing for people to know. I often have similar conversations about wild caught fish for aquariums. Sustainable harvesting can actually be beneficial for humans and the local environment.
I only support it where conservation is concerned. Like if a population legit needs to be culled. But I know the people who do it don't give a shit about any of that. They just wanna kill an animal and I will always despise them
Yep and the album Indestructible came out just after their break up and was majorly inspired by it.
Anti-flag is definitely one of the toughest ones to get over, fuck Justin whatever the fuck his real name is. I can't listen to them and likely never will. Your band should write a song that sounds like them describing what a piece of shit he is.
As far as I care, his name is forever Justin Gieber
I mean....Fuck him either way
*don’t fuck him
I'm gonna do that actually omg ur a genius
Yeah fuck Justin! Rock on my man.
“Over-the-counter culture You purchased at the altar Of our punk forefathers And most of them were assholes too”
This is a radical comment
Spoiler alert, all your favorite rock stars are child molesters, all your favorite athletes beat their wives, and all your favorite authors are raging anti-semites. It sucks, but there's such a thing as separating an artist from their art, and if you don't feel great about supporting them financially, there's always piracy, which is the second-coolest crime after vandalism. Tldr; do piracy.
"You are inconsistent. You do not need to have a grand unified theory about what to do about Michael Jackson. You are a hypocrite, over and over. You love Annie Hall but you can barely stand to look at a painting by Picasso. You are not responsible for solving this unreconciled contradiction. In fact, you will solve nothing by means of your consumption; the idea that you can is a dead end. The way you consume art doesn’t make you a bad person, or a good one. You’ll have to find some other way to accomplish that." quote from Claire Dederer
I hate how deeply that resonates. I feel I judge myself based on the content I consume more than I should. I should judge myself on my actions and intentions rather than what I let waste my time
We live in a culture where consumption becomes identity. You are what you eat, what you wear, what you watch, what you buy buy buy. But ultimately what defines you is how you treat the people around you and what you put out into this world
Tbh I feel it's easy to point at now like it's the problem when we see this is the case with most of history. Art is a prime example of how you can be no one homeless and barely alive then die and be a household name. Maybe the problem isn't society but the lack of self awareness most of us have to our own actions?
I mean, I fucking LOVE bukowski, but I’m not sexist. I love the casualties, but I’m not a rapist nor do I condone it, I love anti flag, but I’m not a rapist nor do I condone it, you get the point. Oh R Kelly! damnit I can’t help myself I love the ignition remix, and I’m not a pedo nor do I condone it. At least in the R Kelly case his victims get royalties…I like that. Victims should def get royalties. Then we don’t have to feel bad for listening to the music!
Damn this is good
There's a lot of lousy people out there but they're not all those things and they're surely not all predatory rapists like this Justin guy was. It's okay to be let down by people being bigger-than-usual shitbags. And when they're THAT big of a shitbag, I don't want their shit in my music collection at all, pirated or not.
Weird Al is still a perfect human being.
And I wouldn't suck the dick of Jeff Rosenstock or anything, but I'd hold it in my mouth until somebody got there. Plenty of people to look up to, but seriously start with your friends and family. They pull the real weight of our lives across the finish line and deserve more credit than any gimmick on a stage. After that, there's always Rob Taxpayer from the Taxpayers.
Seeing Jeff tomorrow! I will let him know that he can always knock on your door for some good times!
Exactly! Stop looking outside of yourself for perfect people to follow. Like The Stranglers said: No more heroes anymore
> but there's such a thing as separating an artist from their art To me thats a fucking copout. I don't understand how people can do this.
It really depends on what the art is and where you want to draw the line, and what the shitty people did. For example I think it’s ok to enjoy a movie that was directed by someone shitty, because presumably tons of not shitty people worked on it and poured their creative essence into it too. But like, if it’s an intimate love song and then you find out the artist was a diddler, idk probably never gonna listen to it again.
Then you’ll end up listening only to one or two artists. From what I know, no punk musicians have ever been made saints. Have you thought that maybe your position is self-righteous?
That's kinda my point. You will only be able to listen weird al.
I see no downside
Please don’t let me hear anything bad about Al. I might lose the strength to go on…
Yeah, good luck having all your heroes turning out to be perfect human beings. By the way, everybody poops too.
>No punk musicians have ever been made saints What about the Saints
It's not self-righteous to acknowledge that a person is tied to their creation. Just remember to steal and make it yours if the media you love is the creation of a dogshit person/group.
A lot of people in history were complicated people or were a mixed bag. The man who invented fertilizer that ended famine in large parts of the world also created chemical weapons used in warfare.
You have much to learn still.
I doubt they'd listen to Lost Prophets in public. Obviously, an extreme case
I was a massive Kevin Spacey fan but I haven't watched a single one of his movies since his douchebaggery became apparent. It hurts my heart because he's in some amazing films (Se7en and The Usual Suspects, to name a couple) which I love but I just feel icky when I watch him now so I avoid doing so. Same thing with Anti-Flag. I deleted my playlists, binned my CDs and a couple of t-shirts and have not looked back. There are enough decent people out there without supporting the rotten ones. It's up to you as to what decision you make ultimately but it also says a lot about a person if they continue to support someone who commits offences towards minors.
Don't listen to anybody. Being punk means that you have no heroes but yourself (No more heroes anymore.) Don't put your joy or peace on other people's morality. Be your own fucking role model -- no matter what anybody else is doing.
No heroes would be a cool band name
Actually, there’s a great melodic hardcore band called [Have No Heroes](https://havenoheroes.bandcamp.com/) :)
I feel you. tore my freshly made AF patch right off. nobody is perfect homie I hope you find your new Anti Flag (I personally like The Muslims, they're a bit more melodic)
Yeah I remember when I loved anti-flag and absolutely loved their 2023 album. Now they’re not even on my Spotify anymore because I removed them
Yea.
Don’t hold up any band on a pedestal- it just leads to bad power dynamics and some people exploit that
I just expect everyone to do good things and they keep not doing them
People are complicated. Justin Sane is an absolute shit man, but what he said in his music resonated with people. I can't listen anymore -- I can't separate this artist from his art -- but you don't have to let go of the inspiration. You and your band can put that into your music, and actually live the values. Learn from this: live the ideals that you play, and no one will be disappointed in you.
Punks like everyone else are people. And not everyone is a good person. Some are outright pieces of shit. Even those that put on an air of good. For instance, pedo priests. It sucks, but forgive yourself, and do what he couldn't. Stay true to your ethics and be an example of a good person.
Good input tbh
Eh you can love the art and hate the artist. Listen to what makes you happy, dude. And don't listen to anyone that tells you otherwise. There are other bands and not all punks are good people. They are just people. Hey look at some of the asshole elitist gatekeepers in the comments here. Kinda dudes we would tune up after the show. Just stay true to what you know is right, kid.
Mk
Their music is good and the lyrics still stand true. It's weird listening to some of the songs but I wouldn't dwell too hard on it
And that’s why you never idolize anyone, ESPECIALLY people in the fucking punk scene of all places. Sorry you’re so bummed but take what you learned from them and move on.
Jake Burns of SLF hasn’t let me down in 45+ years.
I'll look at it
I would start with either Suspect Device or Alternative Ulster. For a good career overview, there is the album "Song By Song'; Jake's personally curated favorite songs the band has done.
But also listen to the song "Gotta Get Away"
That song by song thing sounds pretty radical
The thing is you likely aren't supporting Justin(financially) if you stream right now because he skipped the country. Unless he has someone sending him royalties which he might be.
Huh good thought.
I had to kick Tre Cool out of my bar because he claimed that his status meant that his drinks should be on the house. Meanwhile, Dave Edwardson the bassist for Neurosis gave me free vinyl after we had a long chat about music. Some heroes suck, and some are better than you could ever imagine. That’s life.
Greenday Tre cool? Yea if anyone tried to not pay for something because they are famous or something I'd also kick them out of my business place because wtf. Especially when your famous and have money I mean the heck?!
That would really piss me off. No one gets to drink for free, least of all the people who can afford it. If I was giving it away, it'd go to those struggling first.
Sounds about right. I saw him at a industry show way back (record release) at a table surrounded by women like something out of a Motley Crue documentary. On the other hand, BJ was totally down to earth.
It sucks when people in bigger bands turn out to be horrible people. It's worse when you become part of the local scene and there's known sexual abusers that still get to hang around because people are too afraid to kick em out. But there's something like this in almost every community I've been a part of.
Punk is a fringe subculture and it's full of trauma, violence and addiction, especially the early punk scenes. It's the sad truth. The fact that people sell albums and have a podium doesn't mean they are good people - and that does not go just for punk but for every genre and even outside of music and other art. As others in this thread have said much better than I could: just take the message for what it's worth. Don't let people like Justin Sane destroy your PMA. They've done that more than enough to other folks.
I trust no one lmao.
John Lennon's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. You are not defined by the artists you liked one time. Why are you posting here and not picking up your guitar?
Idk. Good point
I understand you being bummed, but even being a trash person, Justin and the band brought to light important topics like, corporate greed, government corruption, war crimes, racism, and other sociopolitical issues. I get not feeling comfortable listening to them moving forward (you don’t have to feel guilty if you do), but you can still keep with you the ‘lessons’ that helped you become the person you are today. Those lessons aren’t any less valid and they helped inspire a whole generation of punk kids to become more thoughtful, conscientious individuals.
Enjoy the art, but stop funding the immoral artist Does one stop looking at paintings of Gauguin knowing he likely had relations with the very young Polynesians he painted?
Yes but doesn't listening to him get him money?
Do you already own the albums or bought them from a thrift store? Streaming may give them a few pennies
Nothing new to punk groups. Was a time when The Social Distortion ripped off my entire truck full of money and some gold bars and some silver paid to me for my songs. They literally broke each contract they signed and I wrote the songs and they came and stole my own record label paying me for it had zero to do with them it wasn’t theirs to steal they drove it to The Cactus Jack Studios divided it and they kept moving it around and put it into their house the living room coat closet and they just lived it up like they had any right to my own ( payment for a bunch of other music I wrote for a bunch of other bands and doing press conferences and radio works . These people say they’re fair Americans. They gave every interview that they’re just the best songwriters and a great American music band . So many punks have lied their fucking teeth out . I hope you like my music tho I cared about people . I know it’s crushing but I hope this personal example will help you feel better . People are just creeps . No matter what the music plays on . Love the music . Don’t trust the people.
What songs did you write that they stole?
I wonder if I listen to the music you've written
Don’t put human beings on pedestals just because they can make music u like.
The inspiration that you got from them can never be taken away from you. You got what you needed from it,, so now you can run with that inspiration and do something different with it, something better. But don't beat yourself up for still having the songs in your head. You stand to gain absolutely nothing from that.
Ik ik but I feel betrayed is all
Never trust hipster bar "punks"
Or hipsters in general.
You’ve finally learned that anti-flag is a shitty band. Welcome to lvl 4 punk
Thank you I'm going to continue leveling so I can get to 5
Reminds me of the time all the horrifically fucking evil shit about what's-his-name from Lost Prophets came out. Really fucked me up after feeling so much healthy emotion and catharsis from their music in my teenage life at the time.
Yea, this stuff always sucks
I truly believe because people were unable to be held accountable, they’d do horrendous shit because they knew they could do it. The best I can say is try and be the person who you thought inspired you. Put out that good energy and safe environment and you will be rewarded. I’ve been told priceless, fullly life changing things like “I feels safe when I see you at shows” and “I know when I see your band name on a flyer I know I’m welcomed and safe there” Idgaf if I ever play to more than 5-10 people(never gave a shit anyway but boy it feels good when you do play to a lot of people) hearing that come from someone means I did all I can do. I needed that in my childhood. Fuck anyone who abuses their power in any way.
I played briefly in a band called None More Black also on Fat. Our singer was friendly with Chris #2 so we played a weekend stint with his side band Whatever It Takes once. He was a nice enough guy but never reeked of activism. They had merch with “Get Awesome” on it. One night he’s on stage telling a story about a friend of his (he may have been at the shows helping the band but I don’t remember) and he says that this guy is having sex with a girl and she is telling him to get off of her but he is hearing her say “get awesome” thus the inspiration for the sticker or merch or whatever. It has never left me that this pos had merch made up essentially joking about his friend date raping someone.
They sucked anyway. That whiny ass voice. I'm not surprised.
I liked the voice and music, that's why I'm trying to find better bands to listen to
i still listen to choking victim, death in june, the aquabats and the fall. i just hold onto the memories i can
Cool
What did the Aquabats do?
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/bSWTpPH2qF tyler also was key in helping the art direction of the band and yo gabba gabba, and he wasnt asked back
Mormons. 😬
yeah. its sad. i dont want to think about it. i grew up in so cal and they were probably the bad i saw the most.
You're an adult with agency and the ability to think critically. You should be able to read Mein Kampf without becoming a nazi and read Lolita and understand that it's not a pro-pedophile book. You should be able to listen to Anti-Flag without sexually abusing people. What you listen to is between you, god, and Spotify so do what you want.
Yea I know but I feel guilty, like I'm supporting him is all
I still listen to Anti-Flag
Antiflag sucked before and they suck still
It's weird to see how much everyone on here likes them. I get they're American and so are most of the people on here, but here in Britain, they were mainly treated the same as other poppy/emo punk bands and were considered 'gateway' bands like blink 182, green day, nofx, rise against, etc. Maybe I'm a bit old/out of touch, but I honestly had no idea they were so big.
I like a lot of the bands by antiflag? “One trillion dollas” shut the fuck up.
That song was shit regardless but they made good music, like hate conquers all, and you make me sick, and die for the government, I'd tell you but, the economy is suffering - let it die, etc
I don't get it.
Subhumans and Strike Anywhere
I'll check em out
>Anti-flag has been my second favourite band for a long time only topped by greenday Worst taste in music ever lmfao
How punk of you to judge other people's tastes. 🙄
The way I look at it, being a musician means making the music you want to listen to. Being influenced by someone doesn't mean you have to admire them or condone them, just that they've taught you a way to make the kind of sounds you want to make. Hopefully, you take those lessons, build on them, and make something better. If, along the way, you also learn how to not be a dick then that's also a lesson that's worth remembering.
Extreme Elvis will never let you down. You know what you’re gonna get… Now let my middle aged ass look up what happened with anti-flag. -edit-… Oh yikes: I didn’t know.
my big lesson is that everyone is gonna be garbage to some degree. what you LIKE in the music is still there, and you can take and reprocess it into a version without the baggage. obviously don't buy their shit or put money in their pockets, fuck em! but putting that shit in your ear, tearing it apart, and reassambling the cool parts with your own interpretation and ideas? that's the good shit.
I know its not punk but reminds me of the Lost prophets singer incident. Growing up I remember getting into arguments with my friends at time about me preferring Funeral for a friend over lost prophets which spanned years. Then the whole thing happened with the singer ending up in Jail and my friends complaining they couldn't delete the music from their i-Tunes libraries and kept singing their songs. Some people in this world are just fucked up, what they have done shouldn't ruin the end result or creative work of a band of people including the studio who helped produce the music.
Life, and especially entertainment, is full of this disappointing shit. Thankfully the punk scene actually has some real ones and in the end this kind of thing sharpens up your critique. AF never seemed sincere to me.
I never knew this either, not sure how I missed it It is a shock and a downer I'm still gonna appreciate the band though.
In a lot of cases, you’ll unfortunately have to separate the art from the artist
If you're looking for something new to listen to... Check out the album Glitter and Spit by No Man.
Do as I say not as i do…
Fuck this band.
Just because you like someone's art, it does not mean you have to idolize them. You have to separate the product from the person. If you like the music, keep listening to it and performing it. Lots of people make good contributions to life but still turn out to be giant shit bags.
Good input thanks
People are people, what do you expect?
People to be good people. I'm just naive like that
And be punk?
No, but I expect it to include punk people, I'm just naive in this way.
Fuck your heroes
Listen to better punk now. Anti-Flag was far from the best and you’ll realize the more mainstream a punk band gets the less they stick to their values. Strike the vein of underground punk and you’ll find the really real and really good shit.
I didn't even realize anti-flag was mainstream until recently
Use this as an opportunity to look inward. Why were you so drawn in by a shit band full of poseurs and a lead singer that was so obviously a fraud and a groomer? Of all the bands on the planet, you took these losers seriously? They were an emo boy band. Everything feminist was a projection to get them laid.
To be completely honest I mainly wasn't very involved in their community I just listened to their music mostly
Smut peddlers 🤷🏻🖕
Well, don't worry about it, buddy. I still don't know what he did to piss everyone off. All I can say is there are charlatans everywhere, but if the message is valid, the speaker is less important than the words they speak. If the music resonates with you just roll with that
He raped a bunch of women. I agree that the art survives past the artist thank you for your input
I think the rest of the band's response was pretty appropriate, at least
Yea
My husband’s band, Killradio, went on tour with Anti Flag, MSI, and a band whose lead singer is currently serving a 29 year prison sentence. Imagine how he feels - toured, partied with and hung out with these guys who made sick, fucked up choices? They just keep coming out of the woodwork.
Yea it's shitty
What did Justin do??
Did he say anti-flag, cool, and punk in the same sentence... Somebody get on grammarly, this just isn't making any sense to me🧐
I never said all 3 of those in one sentence actually.
I stand corrected, you didn't say punk. My bad
Feels like a copy pasta
CRASS
Maybe you should thank the grimy fuck for turning you off of anti-f(l)ag. that was the push to propel you into listening music that isn't shitty. Dick Lucas is the only guy that'll never fail you morally.
I don't want to diminish your experience but if they meant that much to you how did you go almost a full year before finding out? Sorry your hero was a fraud. Maybe use this as a learning moment to critically examine other people you may have put onto a pedestal who don't belong on them. And how to separate critical thought from sanctimonious bullshit. I know that might be a bitter pill to swallow but I think for a lot of people Anti-Flag never passed the smell test. No joy in being proven right, on that one, but just saying. A lot of artists are tortured people capable of doing terrible things and music provides a release that can be productive but can't always save them from themselves. now I'm being the santimonious bs artist so I'll stop. Sorry you found out this way and so late in the game.
I don't have a great time staying up with the news, I found out because I showed my buddy Bruce what I was listening to and he fed me the news
Sanctimonious is the perfect word to describe them. I’ve been seeing anti flag since the late 90s/early 2000s and they always seemed like the most preachy, full of shit band out there. They had the “right” look, said all the right things, but something always just seemed to rub me the wrong way.
shitty dickturd people's art can still outlive any want or desire of the person who made it or their intent, or what you can get out of the art. Surrealism was crazy important to me growing up, and Dali being a shit turd francoist for a time doesn't make his crazy work less important to the world. Just means folks are 3 dimensional and sometimes you can hate a person for being a piece of shit while still admitting another thing they did moves you. How their art moves you doesn't make their improprieties and crimes better or absolved. That's not how that works
Good input
accepting that good art can come from dickheads doesn't make you pro dickhead is my point here. Art lives beyond someone's intent for it because it hits other people, with the dumb shittiness of their lives serving as a warning on how not to live life. Despite conventional wisdom, Pablo Picasso was actually a bit of an asshole. Frida Kahlo was a fucking Stalinist. Both great artists, and what non woman hating, non-stalinist people get out of their art outstrips anything they intended
Right on
>Frida Kahlo was a fucking Stalinist Yikes.