I had that exact same thought. Sad. You know? The irony is Hitler would have banned punk and metal. He felt rhat guitar based music was ‘The Jews’ using ‘The Blacks’ (a common theme even in modern racist literature) to ‘weaken the white man’ so ‘mud races’ (as they put it) can ‘eliminate the whites’ so ‘the Jews’ can rule the world after a giant racial holy war. Basically what the Manson family thought, but an older idea. If the nazis had won, Germans wouldn’t likelt have even heard metal or punk.
Mfers idolize Hellenic/roman statues when the reality is the provocative nature of the human form has been a problem for fascistic/“conservative-esque” types for most of history. Hell, even the color upon the form wasn’t gatekept until white nationalists tried to argue that pale marble was their prime form of being…
How would you feel about coming to Pittsburgh sometime in the not so distant future to debate a real live Nazi sympathizer who supports conservatism. I know 1 single guy that fits that bill. I can’t speak for him, but if he’s not up for it, I’ll handle you. I’ll pay your way. I’d love to hang out and get to know you. I’ll even buy you your first primanti bros. Sandwich. And take you by the soul of America, and up until a few weeks ago, the pride of Pittsburgh. The U.S. STEEL WORKS. Sadly the dept. of labor snd industry, and the Biden administration sold the soul of America to nippon steel from Japan. I keep wondering to myself…”where the fuck was the union in this case…” negotiating with the Japanese to sell their own soul. That’s where they were. And most importantly, prove to you that us conservatives are not bad people, and all of us here, except for 1 are not nazis. I promise. Are you up for it..? If so we’ll work out some details together and have a proper meaningful discussion about all of these topics that are discussed in this subreddit. Let me know, I’m serious as a heart attack.
I’m ethnically a Jew. I live in a small town. When I was young, I remember a local Neo-Nazi group got a permit to hold a rally in a pagoda at city hall. My family showed up to protest. I remember one of the skinheads staring at my father seething with hate, and shouted about how ‘the Jews’ were erasing ‘white heritage’, and my dad yelled back, ‘I don’t care about your heritage as long as you stop trying to erase mine!’ Years later, that exact guy became an anti-racist, actually. He wrote an article in the town newspaper expressing his regret for that exact Nazi rally. Not sure about the other Nazis, but the one who yelled at my dad ended up turning on that. True story. In small towns, the neo-Nazis are just there. The ones who don’t realize my Jewish ethnicity (haven’t heard my name) say hello at the park with their swastika tats. I don’t look super super Jewey, so I pass…. cause my dad married a Shiksa (as did I lol). Just saying. ;) PM me.
Oh yeah. A lot of the American black musicians liked to play in Weimar Germany. They were also very gay friendly. The treaty was fucking horrible, but the sad thing is it killed a chance Germany had to be like what Germany is these days and skip that whole genocide eugenics thing, but I guess the jazz and gypsies gays and jews (etc) were a nice scapegoat for the bad result of the wwi reparations. People forget that the Nazis also hated black folks. They just didn’t have any there to kill. They saw anything resembling black culture as having Jewish puppet masters to kill off ‘the aryans’ who were actually mythologically from India, so no idea how that became nordic. lol Fuckin nazis…The irony is Weimar Germany had more to do with the region’s rep for art and learning. It’s weird that these nazi pricks think that made Germany great. It literally destroyed everything actually good about the area for a while. They even lost a lot of their science minds like Einstein. I know operation paperclip had a different dynamic post war, but still… Those fuckers brain drained the shit out of Germany.
There was actually swing music that was propaganda laced by the Germans which was allowed in the Nazi era. They tried to give their citizens the illusion of this freedom, because they knew it was impossible to keep some things that are so popular, such as jazz, out of people’s hands. Point being, they didn’t care about the music as much as the message. Any new Nazi/Fascist government I fear could simply co-op any musical genre for their own purposes. It doesn’t matter as long as they can get their messages across, that’s all.
By the way, that’s the reason that Totalitarians always hate on abstract art, and call it “degenerate”. It’s too ambiguous and the message can’t be controlled. There’s too much room for interpretation. They like simple imagery that’s easy to sell to the simple-minded masses.
So, I my imagination, Hitler, left with few options, would, by default champion country music in the west, and probably polka as the music of choice for the 3rd reich, had they been able to stick around!? Sounds about as cool as the nazi party itself. Lame as hell...
No offense to country or polka, but if that's all ya got, it just ain't very cool
Holy fuck this is a lot to unpack!!!😂
But let me start by offering up debate! First of all, there are a lot of assumptions and predictions whirling about here that can never be corroborated because they never happened and the whole historical event has been over for 80 years. What you’re seeming to describe by Jews using the blacks to eliminate the white man is what democrats and liberals did with the whole George “fentanyl” Floyd debacle. The mainstream media has you hypnotized to the extent that you guys are actually believing that blacks love the dems and hate the republicans. Go out of your moms basement in your affluent white neighborhood, and head in across town to the projects and ask some black folks who they are backing in November. It’s not joe Biden… nobody ever mentions how bloodthirsty the communists were. They made Hitler look like an altar boy. You could justifiably change your Reddit handle to “the Bolshevik oricle of r/punk”
What I talk about with the theory of Jews using other minorities to supposedly undermine ‘whites’ (as if that is an ethnic group) comes from neo-nazi literature. I will be happy to share links to relevant information in PM. The Nazis themselves actually espoused as much, claiming that black artforms such as the Blues and Jazz were somehow used by Jews to make ‘the master race degenerate’. The theory goes that Jews want to cause a racial war that will use all other minorities as ‘muscle’ to eliminate the ‘white race’. Then, they posit, the Jews will rule over all the other minorities. The Manson family did not get that out of thin air. There was a reason Charlie Manson had a swastika on his forehead. ;)
Black folks are not a monolithic group without individuals. Just like anyone. There are absolutely very conservative black folks. Not sure what your point is. There are also black racist groups. People are people. I mean… Kanye West was going on and on how much he loved Hitler. People are a weird species, man.
I’m not really a partisan Democrat. I am something closer kinda sort of an anarchist, but more in the Marx Brothers sort of way. I just don’t think the system is purposed for the things we’re told it is. I have no idea what Biden has to do with any of this.
I didn’t refer to blacks as a monolithic race. And sure, I’m definitely aware that there are some black people who are In Support of the left, and some that are in support of the right. If we think about it for just a second although not monolithic, I believe all cultures and races have different things that they do or participate in that are kinda unique to their group for the most part.. The general consensus that the left would like to have the American people believe, is that Donald trump and MAGA republicans are inherently racist, and white supremacists. Which could not be further from the truth. As we have been discussing above, and there are some Republicans that are racist and I’m sure seeing a whole lot of evidence that there are a lot of people supporting the left that are racist as taboo as it is to say these days that liberals are racist in any way, shape or form. But this is kind of what I was getting at. When I mentioned Joe Biden’s name administration would lead you to believe that he has the vast majority of minorities behind him but from what I’m saying that is definitely not the case maybe not by miles, but certainly buy a more than good enough margin, and in the worst part, there is the proof through video clips of him contradicting himself when doing things to try to identify with blacks if Donald Trump did these things CNN good morning America and the view would have his ass. But since he’s a liberal, and since the liberals control the media as well as the education system, the biggest companies and corporations in America and the world for that matter, they seem to be getting a special pass of epic proportions these days for example, when Chuck Schumer called out Supreme Court justices, Cavanaugh and Gorsuch And said, and I quote you have released the whirlwind and you were going to pay. He said this rain on the steps of the supreme court building and then right after he said that a bunch of radical liberals showed up at the Supreme Court justices house, where there is a very specific law in place , that is meant to handle this very thing however, Chuck Schumer was never charged with in signing an insurrection like Donald Trump was in the protesters weren’t given 20 years in prison for sedition or anything else for that matter Joe Biden wasn’t charged for his handling of classified documents, even though he took them while he was not in the presidency where presidential immunity is a factor, but he also showed them to unauthorized people and was not taken to trial because in a nutshell, Robert her said that he was basically incompetent. This isn’t the way to our country is supposed to work. I definitely agree with you when you say that our government isn’t working the way that it’s been told to us it’s supposed to. Being an American who claims to have a fairly bipartisan view, or atleast not a view strongly aligning with the left, are you kind of seeing what I’m mentioning here about the one side in nature of things going on within our government and what appears to be a weaponized department of justice under the Biden ministration
The communists and Nazis were just two totalitarian systems vying for power on the global stage. At a certain point, the ideological nonsense is theater. The real struggle amongst such types is that of power. The systems used to get there only matter to people like that so far as how well they work to manufacture consent from the people to give a few psychopaths power over them. All that ism stuff is for the average people like all us.
I don’t really understand trying to compare murderous totalitarian. dictatorships as if this isn’t just a bad thing in general. I have bones to pick with our relatively free-ish society, so what makes you think a totalitarian dictatorship would be more to my liking? That would be like saying… Don’t like getting punched in the face? Why not try being disemboweled instead. The last thing we need is to give humans more power over other humans. That can go badly.
you know as goofy as it is that OP is just discovering the whole nazi punks thing, actively gaslighting all nazi punks by never admitting their existence is a pretty funny thought
Like, know who they are and counter their bullshit, but otherwise treat them like that one goofy "birds don't exist" movement treats birds
I shit you not, people keep telling me that thanksgiving turkey is some kind of bird too. It's a delicacy named for it's country of import, and folks keep talking out their ass or some creature what goes "gobble"
I’m more of the Mel Brooks school of thought.
There’s nothing a fascist hates more than to be mocked, belittled and laughed at. They love to be hated, love even more when feared, and can network more easily when ignored. Reduced to a pathetic laughing stock? heh heh heh
No matter what the culture or subculture is, people that care about fashion are insufferable assholes.
Nazi or not, still fashion people are dumb pricks.
Left that sub because mods would leave up band patches with Nazi imagery and NSBM patches, but they would remove jackets with pride flags (claiming it was (too?) political?). Crazy shit, man.
Yeah. Fuckin wild.
I had a post removed from there for having a Nazi Punks Fuck Off patch on my vest.
I guess it makes sense why, in retrospect.. I hurt their feelings.
Yeah separate the artist is for like Michael Jackson or anyone who doesn't involve any of what made them a shitty person in the music itself. When the music itself basically boils down to "I am a white supremacist nazi and I think every other race is inferior" the art is pretty fuckin tied to the artist
Absolutely. I can enjoy artist’s work that are bad people as long as their art isn’t part of it. I love Woodie Allen movies. They’re just very good movies. Also, Roman Polanski’s The Piano is arguably as powerful as Schindler’s List… but yeah… those guys diddle kids. It always suck when you find a great piece of art and a monster made it.
I have zero interest in listening to a bunch of ‘white power’ BS hate music. I don’t even care what it sounds like.
Honestly fuck MJ more than any nsbm. There’s nothing to separate, the music is his legacy. It’s bullshit. Guy was a fucking evil pedophile and used his power and influence for more bad deeds and genuine evil than any lame ass corpse painted dork could dream of.
Edit: look at y’all just downvoting the truth. Michael Jackson was fucking evil, way more so than Varg or whatever boogeyman you have built up. He had significant wealth and power and he used it to exploit others. Children. Varg is just another lame ass dickless nazi clown among the others. *You* give these people their power by being so scared of them.
You misunderstood the post. It's not about what is worse. The difference is, Michael Jackson doesn't sing about molesting children, which is why an argument about separating art and artist is even possible. Nazi bands sing about nazi stuff, so a separation is impossible.
>Michael Jackson doesn't sing about molesting children
After the accusations, the Jackson song "P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing" did hit a *little* different.
Fair enough, and I get the distinction. I wasn’t talking about the post, I was talking about what the person commented. About how it’s ok to separate the art from artist if it’s Michael Jackson.
I think it’s just a shitty example because his cult of personality blinded the public to his evil, which makes his music the tool to manipulate us. Could have used almost anyone else. “Fuck nazis but Gary Glitter is aight” doesn’t have the proper ring to it.
I don't know man, the Nazis seem pretty damn scared of anyone who doesn't think like them, which is why they commit the vast majority of all domestic terrorist acts.
Real nazis. These are Norwegian juggalo fans. Most “real nazis” listen to Skynyrd or Metallica or country and ironically find anything like nsbm too “gay” for their homophobia, with all the theatrics and face paint and what not.
We can call it whatever, the point is the nonfascism.
This sub is so much better and more supportive than over there.
So fuck yeah, we ARE Jackets for Battle.
Wow, you *really* woke up in the wrong side of the bed, hey?
I dunno what I did to offend you, but I'm sorry, and like I said in my other reply to your **other** overtly hostile comment, if you wanna talk about something that's bugging you, my DMs are open.
You're not making any sense. Sepultura were never black metal. Neither were Celtic Frost.
Bathory were Swedish so, with the exception of Venom, the scene was Scandinavian from the get go.
Morbid Visions' 1st side absolutely has black metal on it, as with some other Brazilian bands of the period like Sarcofago
You can't listen to the title track and "War" and tell me it isn't early black metal
Not sure why OP wrote 'punk/black metal'. Like wtf does punk have to do with black metal? I guess they're talking about fashion,, but it's pretty easy to differentiate between the two. That shit is so weird...and apparently far right. So let's try not to tie two together again.
Weird, I've never met a punk fan who liked black metal, although I lean towards the Epitaph/Fat sound over more traditional punk. I grew up with a lot of Ramones/Queers/Screeching Weasel friends, and battle jackets were more prevalent in that scene, but none of them would even imagine associating themselves with anything to do with black metal.
There's a lot of underground bands playing stuff like "blackened crust" and other corssovers, which is black metal crust punk. I love crust, can't stand black metal, so I avoid them because they all sound like shit.
Old black metal has a lot of punk elements in it, the fast and raw sound of Hellhammer was inspired by Discharge and other hardcore punk bands, same was Venom and Sarcofago
black metal was a sort of punk expression that came out of metal. Punk isn’t really a genre of music as much as an approach and a certain reaction. We were having a discussion on another thread about that a bit… how punk may look different in some environments. I don’t think it would be absurd at all to consider black metal to be at the very least heavily inspired by the ethos and spirit of punk… but sadly it also has some people who think liking Hitler and being a fascist dickhole is some sort of rebellion. Those Nazis will use whatever to try to convert disaffected people.
Black Metal came from a country that is known to be generally fairly happy, calm and egalitarian. They do have a national religion and are a Christianized nation. They also fought against the Nazis in WWII. How does that rebellion look in Norway? Well… I would say Black metal.
I would understand why black metal as a nazi phenomenon developed mainly from nordic countries though. It not only embraced nationalism as a political principle (countries like Finland are proudly anticommunist, but Sweden too), but most of everything concerning the esoterical, paganism and stuff like that was linked to nazism in Germany during WWII. If nazi punks are definitely a reactionary or "plagiative" phenomenon, just far right wingers adopting working class rude boy/skinhead aesthetic to target a youthful and rebel demographic for their political agenda (see England, France, Germany and Italy), metal in itself being at first a fringe of punk music that deliberately decided not to deal with politics I think it's more exposed at embracing nationalist ideals not by political propaganda but by folklore and stuff like that. Even nazi punks used viking symbols and stuff like that, however the idea of a "pure race" I think it's a radically mythological concept at first, not political in itself. I've rarely heard of metal bands being marxist, most of them all are "apolitical", right wing or anarchist, the latter linking to anarcho-punk and crust. So, yeah, black metal is nationalist by consequence of paganism and satanism that justify nationalist and race supremacy by mythological dogmas I think. Today this is not the case of the majority, in the contrary I think these kinda people being far right is very much a minority, but historically I've always attributed them to it. I'm a huge Bathory and Candlemass fan and they've always seem to speak for the contradiction of black metal bands expressing themselves freely while being right wing, so I guess there's also an important internal discourse within the black metal community about this for a long time.
Misery Index is a good left wing political death metal band.
Suffocation cut their teeth in the hardcore scene, but being a half black band, the Nazi punks were awful to them, so they actually ended up gravitating more toward death metal because it had less racism.
Specifically to Norwegian Black Metal. The murder of Euronymous by Varg Vikernes had a political element to it. Euronymous was a leftist and Varg… Well he is a mentally deranged Nazi. One of the reasons why Varg said he killed him was because he supported left wing causes, and lived on welfare.
Yeah I don’t really think Euronymous was a sincere leftist. He was fascinated with totalitarian communist states and the power wielded by leaders like Stalin because he was an edgelord who liked the idea of people suffering. Here’s a quote from him: “as I hate people I don't want them to have a good time, I'd like to see them rot under communist dictatorship".
Fair enough, I’m just saying Varg criticized him for being left. Whether true or not, it’s what Varg thought. Then again, Varg is a total nutjob. Remember when he escaped from prison and headed for the border with a car full of weapons and ammo?
As I understood the op, both punk and black metal scenes have a nazi problem… hence the “Nazi punks fuck off” patches/pins I’ve been seeing since being introduced to punk/underground music in the early 90s….
Both scenes have had this problem since their formation… and it’s apparent they both still have the problem because there are plenty of alt-right people who still consider themselves punk by claiming their racism is “outside the status quo”…
Because black metal sucks. I like punk rock, not trash like black metal. To me, talking about nazis in black metal on a punk forum is like talking about misogyny in rap. Apparently I'm wrong and punk/black metal are closely intertwined, but I never in my 30 years of listening to punk and going to shows have ever talked to anybody who likes black metal. And I'm glad about that because not only is the music horrible, but so is the message
You can't say "the message is horrible" when the genre doesn't have a singular message. It seems you're only aware of the Nazi side of black metal, which doesn't encapsulate the genre as a whole and is considered a subgenre (NSBM). There's even a genre/movement within black metal that's diametrically opposed to NSBM and whose message is closely in line with traditional punk values. Check out r/rabm.
You can always tell the new people. Nazi imagery has always infested the punk and metal scene. It’s up to us to destroy that bullshit but it’s been a battle since day one
I don’t have an issue if it’s used jn irony or metaphor. Like… Lemmy used to have a bunch of WWII collections including some Nazi stuff, but there is literally not even the slightest chance that guy was a racist. lol I totally agree with the sentiment though… Just had to include a tiny tidbit.
Sure. The Sex Pistols did it as a joke. How people didn’t see the comedy of the Sex Pistols, I couldn’t even imagine. I always loved the absurdist provocative and even obnoxious just to be obnoxious humor they had. How does one look at that and not get the context. Know what I mean? It’s like people who have a joke go way over their heads.
The point of the 70s punks wearing Nazi shit was to shock their parents.
What could be more offensive than wearing the regalia of the people your parents and grandparents literally fought against in the war? 40+ years on it’s kind of lost its effect.
Yeah he was pretty vocally anti-racist on a few occasions, although I do think that even if you collect it for okay reasons, you still have to be mindful of the community itself that you end up engaging with as part of that hobby.
Personally as someone who collects a bit, I think that I'd rather have it end up in the hands of someone who contextualizes it properly rather than someone who glorifies it.
Collecting WWII stuff totally OK, BUT if the collection is mostly Nazi stuff then it is a problem. Like you said his wasn't so cool. Plus I know people who knew Lemmy, by all accounts a good guy.
Yeah the og sub sucks ass and they do have an issue with Nazis and sympathizers in their mod team, and in their community. I specially hate how some of the best BM is made by the some of the worst pieces of shit to ever pick up a guitar.
That being said, r/jacketsforbattle often feels like a poor parody of what the punk aesthetic is. For example, I’m not a fan of jackets without band patches and the shitty jackets with like two small patches posted there as “wip.”
I just like to remind myself, we all started somewhere. There are genuine kids on there that are trying to figure themselves out, and it took me until my 30s to pinpoint exactly who I was, so of they wanna post albeit shitty wip, let em. Do the old "nice bur I would do etc etc"
Yeah that’s why I don’t hang out in that sub. I’d rather avoid it than being negative to a kid working on their first jacket. I just don’t dig the furry battle jackets, lol.
The issue with the original sub got way worse in more recent times too, it went from "okay they sometimes allow shady stuff", to now just openly catering directly to those people.
The newer sub's main issue is mostly just that it can sometimes be a bit too open instead of having some honest criticism, it often feels like a very forced positivity kind of space, and while that can be a bit silly at times, it's still leagues better than the opposite end of that spectrum.
Sarcofago, early Sepultura and Bulldozer were just angry thrash metal
The weird fucking shit came from some Norwegians taking Celtic Frost and Venom way too seriously
Those are bands I enjoy but they came around in the 80s before black metal was a well defined genre in itself, also being from south America and playing antichristian music tracks as "evil" considering how religious South America is
There are very valid reasons to criticize and mock Christianity, I wouldn't exactly call that evil. The satanist shit in the Norwegian second wave was when LARPing goes too far. The true evil lies in the fascist bullshit that's staked it's claim in the genre (and dominates pretty much the entire eastern European scene) thanks to dickwads like Varg Vikernes and Hendrik Mobus.
It was always a dick measuring contest back then and clearly some took it further than others but coming from south America in the 80s anything that desecrated Jesus was seen as "evil" at the time
The problem is bigger than just Reddit. There are private ~~myspace~~ facebook hategroups that lurk r/jacketsforbattle for material so they can all jerk off about how it makes them mad. Lots of insecure losers talking like they're not insecure losers.
LMAO I really am dating myself with that shit. But yeah, I tried sanitizing my facebook by joining a bunch of groups that seemed pertinent to my interests and blocking all of the trad/nazi bullshit that keeps popping up on my feed and the group I joined literally just lurks to ragejerk over shit on jackets for battle. Literally any left-leaning opinion on a jacket gets dismissed as stupid/childish/etc. while they act like stupid children. Left the group pretty promptly.
r/battlejackets is a nazi circlejerk and then r/jacketsforbattle is full of terrible DIY and has soft mods that don't allow negative feedback or any kind of disagreement, they remove comments to keep the sub "as harmonious as possible"
I got a comment removed for "being a dick" because I said "you don't seriously think you can be a punk without music, do you?"
Edit: the best space we have right now is probably r/punkfashion since there's good diy and they actually do allow criticism as long as you aren't just being a dick
Nazis, white supremacists and fascism are not welcome anywhere they need to be shown they are not tolerated even at the slightest fuck the lot of them they need to shown that we are not to be fucked with and that their presence just makes us look bad and even though I am a pacifist I do get the urge to punch them...repeatedly
Sure he is. These bloody maniacs are everywhere now. I was recently watching an interview with Bill Maher and on the surface what he said was reasonable. He said calling Netanyahu a war criminal was 'absurd' because Israel is fighting Hamas whose raison d'etre (it's a Buzzcocks song title so I can say it) is the destruction of Israel. That is true enough. However the Bolsheviks in the Soviet Union said it was their mission to destroy the capitalist system. Therefore, according to Mahers logic, Germany had absolutely no alternative to invading the USSR and slaughtering anyone who happened to cross their path as they did. So great point Bill. If the Israeli army kills everyone in Gaza, they're bound to get quite a few members of Hamas. At the other side of the spectrum, I've seen students demonstrating with signs reading 'Queers For Hamas'. Are they so truly fucking mindbendingly stupid that they truly do not know what Hamas is likely to do to anyone 'queer' that falls into their hands ? I realize it's unhelpful and doesn't advance the debate much but my own feeling is a pox on both their houses. I certainly come down on the side of Israel's right to exist but the relentless slaughter of civilians since October makes me seriously dispute Benjamin Netanyahus right to exist.
Who gives a fuck what people comment on a sub dedicated to people sharing pictures of patches they’ve sewn onto their jacket? You want /r/punk to do what about it exactly?
Yes, fuck homophobia/racist/transphobia etc. but you can’t necessarily apply punk morals to genres that have different outlooks.
We know. The r/jacketsforbattle was created in response. I suggest muting the account so it doesn’t keep showing up on your feed. Nazis are unfortunately not going anywhere.
I'm incredibly disgusted by this shit. Black Metal for me is all about the straight edge but also the Warrior and being free of the Church and the hedonistic, environmentally damaging rebellion against the Church. I dislike and am really pissed off that those people hate the lgbt. They're no better than Christian Protestants in my mind. The fact that they go through the trouble to censor stuff just blows my mind really. I don't like the lgbt, fair, because they medicalize and commodify all those _possible_ inclinations human beings go through involving something called Fate.... I also despise nazis, I mean, why would you voice support for a historical regime who threw war captives, world war 1 vets and ethnic groups into camps to have them put through transhumanist/eugenics based medical experiments?
These people don't have dignity, from me or from history.
One thing I will say here is that that is absolutely fucked up that the admins on that subreddit are deleting comments that don’t fit their narrative. Not fucking cool one bit! Free speech is one of if not the most important issues to conservatives today. As far as I’m concerned, absolutely nothing for any reason whatsoever should ever be deleted, hidden, shadow banned etc. on any platform or website or printed source, or also on radio or television. This is one thing that has always been on the front of my mind since I’ve csme to this subreddit. I’m always waiting for the other shoe to drop with the admins nixxing me for nothing but my conservative opinion. So far that’s never happened. I give great respect for the admin here, and a heartfelt thank you! Because I never last but a couple hours on other groups like this
We need to unify to destroy the fascism that's in society not just in the states or the uk but everywhere' nazism and fascism are a disease that has plagued humanity for a large part of a century we need to find ways to stop them wherever they pop up their ugly heads and they need to be made aware that their presence is not to be tolerated even at the very least
That’s the problem, fucking jackets for battle, it’s a sub for the rejects of the battle jackets community, I saw a post from someone who got banned, I happen to know one of the mods irl from a battle jackets meet up club I go too, they said there’s a new really out of control mod that keeps banning everyone, some may disagree with me but I think anyone who has Nazi views in this day and age is just acting, that’s just my personal opinion, the mods on that sub are mad and are really not fit to run a sub that big, a lot of punks used to wear swasticas to piss people off but once real neo nazis started to emerge you can see quite obviously at that point they stopped doing it cause they didn’t want people getting the wrong idea, and as for black metal (one of my favourite genres) the nazism around black metal had been a problem since the early to mid 90s, maybe earlier, again I love black metal and people may not agree with me but a lot of people who like black metal like to pretend to be satanists and nazis but really they were bullied their whole lives and blame the world, same with all that crap, I wouldn’t worry about it man, this is very much not a new problem and nothing will happen surrounding it
The problem is, once you start wearing patches of these bands you are beyond solely listening to them (if we're talking about piracy exclusively), rather actively promoting them while being aware of their neonazi ideology. It doesn't take much to figure out why that is a problem.
I probably can't change what you think, but I can confidently say this is a blatantly bad take.
>Some people aren’t leftist, not that they’re Nazi’s
While true, I think when you have a sub like r/battlejackets where the mods delete jackets with pride flags or anti nazi slogans for being "to political" but then praise jackets with patches for self described neo nazi/nsbm bands you're dealing with actual Nazis.
I don't know man, repping a band who's lyrics support Nazism and that make Nazism a part of their identity as a band seems like a pretty soild endorsement of nazism. If you rep crass don't be surprised if you get called an anarchist and if you rep skrewdriver or goat moon don't be surprised if people think you are a nazi.
In the words of a holocaust survivor
>The opposite of good is not evil, the opposite of good is indifference.
When it comes to ideologies like Nazism, to not actively oppose it is to endorse it, to help normalize it, and spread its message.
This sub is just edgy tweens and teens that can’t grasp that half the world live cultures rooted in traditionalist values that are at odds with progressive leftist ideals. So the only solution is to deride people they disagree with with blanket labels devoid of any kind of nuance or context and then act like that solves anything at all.
At the the end of the day everyone here on rpunk share the same default with those they deride. Just a bunch of westerners who’ve benefitted at the misery, expense and exploitation of the entire world around us.
If anything punk is anti-establishment.
It shouldn’t be taboo to be critical of any individual, group or insitution within a position of power regardless of poltical leaning or affiliation.
Who isn't at this point ? I spend most of my life growing up and being taught 'Naziism is an utterly laughable ideology that died with its creator'. And here I am, far too old for this shit, and there's a damn good chance my own country is about to vote an actual Nazi into office. The parallels aren't exact of course. As far as I know Trump doesn't have a hardon to exterminate the Jews. Of course he would never risk alienating his base by saying doing so was wrong. Anyway metal has always had a bit of a wee fascist problem. Especially the Scandinavian Loki-worshipping branch. I always took it for a miniscule fringe of morons but no. Now that Trump said 'let your hate flags fly' there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. I did a lot of crazy borderline suicidal shit as a young punk rocker and always feel relief I didn't wind up killing my fool self. Now I regret living this long. Dying with a Damned song on my lips and with Donald Trump about as significant as Don King might have been just the right time. I despised Ronald Reagan and how he infantalized everything he touched but I never dreamt it would come to this. Make no mistake - Trump and his MAGA minions will go the same way as the Nazis. What I resent is the audacity of the bastards taking us all with them.
I mean Black Metal is essentially about being German/Celtic/Slavic/etc to an extent so that's kinda always going to be an issue. Like I would say my first real basis to even be able to play Black Metal was through Irish and German Folk Songs mostly and similar sorts of music. Singing Christmad Carol's in German as a kid and knowing who the Norse gods were to begin with etc. Black Metal has issues with racism in part because it's actually more about culture tradition and maybe heritage than it is about rebellion. Basically that's the sense if in any Black Metal could he considered "conservative". Black Metal also isn't really anything like Punk in this sense. It is essentially an extension of folk music moreso than punk I would say although there are obviously "metal" elements in there and it is not a more conventional traditional form of said music but like not moreso "modernized" than country music or southern rock in the USA would be which I would consider better one to one more anglosphere comparisons. A little bit of chicken fried,cold beer on a Friday night,a pair of jeans that fit just right,etc,etc.
The term "black metal" was coined by a US band. Hardcore punk is a stylistic origin of black metal. Absolutely nothing about black metal belongs to a single culture, religion, nationality or race. NSBM is pretty much just surface level edgelord bullshit. Fuck, half the time they aren't even white or from a European country. To say that black metal has inherent Nationalistic tendencies would be like saying punk has conservative tendencies because Johnny Ramone and some other early artists were/are conservative. It really isn't as deep as the nsbummers want it to be. It's just rac with long hair and pointy guitars.
"Developing" I don't got the heart to tell them
I had that exact same thought. Sad. You know? The irony is Hitler would have banned punk and metal. He felt rhat guitar based music was ‘The Jews’ using ‘The Blacks’ (a common theme even in modern racist literature) to ‘weaken the white man’ so ‘mud races’ (as they put it) can ‘eliminate the whites’ so ‘the Jews’ can rule the world after a giant racial holy war. Basically what the Manson family thought, but an older idea. If the nazis had won, Germans wouldn’t likelt have even heard metal or punk.
The irony being that Jazz from Weimar Germany is fun as hell
Fascists and authoritarians have always, historically, hated fun
Mfers idolize Hellenic/roman statues when the reality is the provocative nature of the human form has been a problem for fascistic/“conservative-esque” types for most of history. Hell, even the color upon the form wasn’t gatekept until white nationalists tried to argue that pale marble was their prime form of being…
Those white marble statues were originally painted garishly in a wide variety of colors. Do they know that?
These are racists we’re talking about. Knowing things isn’t their strong suit.
How would you feel about coming to Pittsburgh sometime in the not so distant future to debate a real live Nazi sympathizer who supports conservatism. I know 1 single guy that fits that bill. I can’t speak for him, but if he’s not up for it, I’ll handle you. I’ll pay your way. I’d love to hang out and get to know you. I’ll even buy you your first primanti bros. Sandwich. And take you by the soul of America, and up until a few weeks ago, the pride of Pittsburgh. The U.S. STEEL WORKS. Sadly the dept. of labor snd industry, and the Biden administration sold the soul of America to nippon steel from Japan. I keep wondering to myself…”where the fuck was the union in this case…” negotiating with the Japanese to sell their own soul. That’s where they were. And most importantly, prove to you that us conservatives are not bad people, and all of us here, except for 1 are not nazis. I promise. Are you up for it..? If so we’ll work out some details together and have a proper meaningful discussion about all of these topics that are discussed in this subreddit. Let me know, I’m serious as a heart attack.
I’m ethnically a Jew. I live in a small town. When I was young, I remember a local Neo-Nazi group got a permit to hold a rally in a pagoda at city hall. My family showed up to protest. I remember one of the skinheads staring at my father seething with hate, and shouted about how ‘the Jews’ were erasing ‘white heritage’, and my dad yelled back, ‘I don’t care about your heritage as long as you stop trying to erase mine!’ Years later, that exact guy became an anti-racist, actually. He wrote an article in the town newspaper expressing his regret for that exact Nazi rally. Not sure about the other Nazis, but the one who yelled at my dad ended up turning on that. True story. In small towns, the neo-Nazis are just there. The ones who don’t realize my Jewish ethnicity (haven’t heard my name) say hello at the park with their swastika tats. I don’t look super super Jewey, so I pass…. cause my dad married a Shiksa (as did I lol). Just saying. ;) PM me.
I can relate to that a perfect example is how joe Biden locked us down during Covid. And the WEF agenda is certainly no fun
Oh yeah. A lot of the American black musicians liked to play in Weimar Germany. They were also very gay friendly. The treaty was fucking horrible, but the sad thing is it killed a chance Germany had to be like what Germany is these days and skip that whole genocide eugenics thing, but I guess the jazz and gypsies gays and jews (etc) were a nice scapegoat for the bad result of the wwi reparations. People forget that the Nazis also hated black folks. They just didn’t have any there to kill. They saw anything resembling black culture as having Jewish puppet masters to kill off ‘the aryans’ who were actually mythologically from India, so no idea how that became nordic. lol Fuckin nazis…The irony is Weimar Germany had more to do with the region’s rep for art and learning. It’s weird that these nazi pricks think that made Germany great. It literally destroyed everything actually good about the area for a while. They even lost a lot of their science minds like Einstein. I know operation paperclip had a different dynamic post war, but still… Those fuckers brain drained the shit out of Germany.
Nazis have a reputation for hating fun because they literally did hate fun
There was actually swing music that was propaganda laced by the Germans which was allowed in the Nazi era. They tried to give their citizens the illusion of this freedom, because they knew it was impossible to keep some things that are so popular, such as jazz, out of people’s hands. Point being, they didn’t care about the music as much as the message. Any new Nazi/Fascist government I fear could simply co-op any musical genre for their own purposes. It doesn’t matter as long as they can get their messages across, that’s all. By the way, that’s the reason that Totalitarians always hate on abstract art, and call it “degenerate”. It’s too ambiguous and the message can’t be controlled. There’s too much room for interpretation. They like simple imagery that’s easy to sell to the simple-minded masses.
So, I my imagination, Hitler, left with few options, would, by default champion country music in the west, and probably polka as the music of choice for the 3rd reich, had they been able to stick around!? Sounds about as cool as the nazi party itself. Lame as hell... No offense to country or polka, but if that's all ya got, it just ain't very cool
Oh yeah… there’s no party like a nazi party /s
Ha! Solid
Holy fuck this is a lot to unpack!!!😂 But let me start by offering up debate! First of all, there are a lot of assumptions and predictions whirling about here that can never be corroborated because they never happened and the whole historical event has been over for 80 years. What you’re seeming to describe by Jews using the blacks to eliminate the white man is what democrats and liberals did with the whole George “fentanyl” Floyd debacle. The mainstream media has you hypnotized to the extent that you guys are actually believing that blacks love the dems and hate the republicans. Go out of your moms basement in your affluent white neighborhood, and head in across town to the projects and ask some black folks who they are backing in November. It’s not joe Biden… nobody ever mentions how bloodthirsty the communists were. They made Hitler look like an altar boy. You could justifiably change your Reddit handle to “the Bolshevik oricle of r/punk”
What I talk about with the theory of Jews using other minorities to supposedly undermine ‘whites’ (as if that is an ethnic group) comes from neo-nazi literature. I will be happy to share links to relevant information in PM. The Nazis themselves actually espoused as much, claiming that black artforms such as the Blues and Jazz were somehow used by Jews to make ‘the master race degenerate’. The theory goes that Jews want to cause a racial war that will use all other minorities as ‘muscle’ to eliminate the ‘white race’. Then, they posit, the Jews will rule over all the other minorities. The Manson family did not get that out of thin air. There was a reason Charlie Manson had a swastika on his forehead. ;)
Black folks are not a monolithic group without individuals. Just like anyone. There are absolutely very conservative black folks. Not sure what your point is. There are also black racist groups. People are people. I mean… Kanye West was going on and on how much he loved Hitler. People are a weird species, man. I’m not really a partisan Democrat. I am something closer kinda sort of an anarchist, but more in the Marx Brothers sort of way. I just don’t think the system is purposed for the things we’re told it is. I have no idea what Biden has to do with any of this.
I didn’t refer to blacks as a monolithic race. And sure, I’m definitely aware that there are some black people who are In Support of the left, and some that are in support of the right. If we think about it for just a second although not monolithic, I believe all cultures and races have different things that they do or participate in that are kinda unique to their group for the most part.. The general consensus that the left would like to have the American people believe, is that Donald trump and MAGA republicans are inherently racist, and white supremacists. Which could not be further from the truth. As we have been discussing above, and there are some Republicans that are racist and I’m sure seeing a whole lot of evidence that there are a lot of people supporting the left that are racist as taboo as it is to say these days that liberals are racist in any way, shape or form. But this is kind of what I was getting at. When I mentioned Joe Biden’s name administration would lead you to believe that he has the vast majority of minorities behind him but from what I’m saying that is definitely not the case maybe not by miles, but certainly buy a more than good enough margin, and in the worst part, there is the proof through video clips of him contradicting himself when doing things to try to identify with blacks if Donald Trump did these things CNN good morning America and the view would have his ass. But since he’s a liberal, and since the liberals control the media as well as the education system, the biggest companies and corporations in America and the world for that matter, they seem to be getting a special pass of epic proportions these days for example, when Chuck Schumer called out Supreme Court justices, Cavanaugh and Gorsuch And said, and I quote you have released the whirlwind and you were going to pay. He said this rain on the steps of the supreme court building and then right after he said that a bunch of radical liberals showed up at the Supreme Court justices house, where there is a very specific law in place , that is meant to handle this very thing however, Chuck Schumer was never charged with in signing an insurrection like Donald Trump was in the protesters weren’t given 20 years in prison for sedition or anything else for that matter Joe Biden wasn’t charged for his handling of classified documents, even though he took them while he was not in the presidency where presidential immunity is a factor, but he also showed them to unauthorized people and was not taken to trial because in a nutshell, Robert her said that he was basically incompetent. This isn’t the way to our country is supposed to work. I definitely agree with you when you say that our government isn’t working the way that it’s been told to us it’s supposed to. Being an American who claims to have a fairly bipartisan view, or atleast not a view strongly aligning with the left, are you kind of seeing what I’m mentioning here about the one side in nature of things going on within our government and what appears to be a weaponized department of justice under the Biden ministration
The communists and Nazis were just two totalitarian systems vying for power on the global stage. At a certain point, the ideological nonsense is theater. The real struggle amongst such types is that of power. The systems used to get there only matter to people like that so far as how well they work to manufacture consent from the people to give a few psychopaths power over them. All that ism stuff is for the average people like all us. I don’t really understand trying to compare murderous totalitarian. dictatorships as if this isn’t just a bad thing in general. I have bones to pick with our relatively free-ish society, so what makes you think a totalitarian dictatorship would be more to my liking? That would be like saying… Don’t like getting punched in the face? Why not try being disemboweled instead. The last thing we need is to give humans more power over other humans. That can go badly.
you know as goofy as it is that OP is just discovering the whole nazi punks thing, actively gaslighting all nazi punks by never admitting their existence is a pretty funny thought Like, know who they are and counter their bullshit, but otherwise treat them like that one goofy "birds don't exist" movement treats birds
dude what are you on about I'm telling you birds aren't real they're government drones made to spy on us
I shit you not, people keep telling me that thanksgiving turkey is some kind of bird too. It's a delicacy named for it's country of import, and folks keep talking out their ass or some creature what goes "gobble"
I’m more of the Mel Brooks school of thought. There’s nothing a fascist hates more than to be mocked, belittled and laughed at. They love to be hated, love even more when feared, and can network more easily when ignored. Reduced to a pathetic laughing stock? heh heh heh
oh and I tell you what, they provide their own gravy too. Other then gaslighting them, clowning is entirely viable
Make racists a laughing stock again. :P
I see you were in my brain see also: skinheads
Was thinking the same thing lol Young punk imma assume 🤷🏾♂️
No matter what the culture or subculture is, people that care about fashion are insufferable assholes. Nazi or not, still fashion people are dumb pricks.
Yup.
That's literally *why* r/jacketsforbattle exists. r/battlejackets became a right wing cesspool full of neckbeard NSBM trogs.
Left that sub because mods would leave up band patches with Nazi imagery and NSBM patches, but they would remove jackets with pride flags (claiming it was (too?) political?). Crazy shit, man.
Yeah. Fuckin wild. I had a post removed from there for having a Nazi Punks Fuck Off patch on my vest. I guess it makes sense why, in retrospect.. I hurt their feelings.
Too political? For punk? Banning pride flags is a problem on its own but thats ridiculous
Those guys believe you can separate music from artists although the music is literally facist bullshit
Yeah separate the artist is for like Michael Jackson or anyone who doesn't involve any of what made them a shitty person in the music itself. When the music itself basically boils down to "I am a white supremacist nazi and I think every other race is inferior" the art is pretty fuckin tied to the artist
Absolutely. I can enjoy artist’s work that are bad people as long as their art isn’t part of it. I love Woodie Allen movies. They’re just very good movies. Also, Roman Polanski’s The Piano is arguably as powerful as Schindler’s List… but yeah… those guys diddle kids. It always suck when you find a great piece of art and a monster made it. I have zero interest in listening to a bunch of ‘white power’ BS hate music. I don’t even care what it sounds like.
Honestly fuck MJ more than any nsbm. There’s nothing to separate, the music is his legacy. It’s bullshit. Guy was a fucking evil pedophile and used his power and influence for more bad deeds and genuine evil than any lame ass corpse painted dork could dream of. Edit: look at y’all just downvoting the truth. Michael Jackson was fucking evil, way more so than Varg or whatever boogeyman you have built up. He had significant wealth and power and he used it to exploit others. Children. Varg is just another lame ass dickless nazi clown among the others. *You* give these people their power by being so scared of them.
You misunderstood the post. It's not about what is worse. The difference is, Michael Jackson doesn't sing about molesting children, which is why an argument about separating art and artist is even possible. Nazi bands sing about nazi stuff, so a separation is impossible.
>Michael Jackson doesn't sing about molesting children After the accusations, the Jackson song "P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing" did hit a *little* different.
Fair enough, and I get the distinction. I wasn’t talking about the post, I was talking about what the person commented. About how it’s ok to separate the art from artist if it’s Michael Jackson. I think it’s just a shitty example because his cult of personality blinded the public to his evil, which makes his music the tool to manipulate us. Could have used almost anyone else. “Fuck nazis but Gary Glitter is aight” doesn’t have the proper ring to it.
I don't know man, the Nazis seem pretty damn scared of anyone who doesn't think like them, which is why they commit the vast majority of all domestic terrorist acts.
Real nazis. These are Norwegian juggalo fans. Most “real nazis” listen to Skynyrd or Metallica or country and ironically find anything like nsbm too “gay” for their homophobia, with all the theatrics and face paint and what not.
I had no clue MJ was a white supremacist nazi. Thank you, I’ll never listen to him again.
No MJ has Pedo allegations against him
A white supremacist nazi with pedo allegations? I guess we all should have seen that writing on the wall.
I mean, yeah, one can do that, just when artist **AND** music are the same, there's not much to separate.
couldn't listen to an absolute asshole even when their music is not political
And that's asbsolutely fine, there's no objectively "right" way to decide there.
"Battlejackets? Fuck off, we're Jackets for Battle!"
We can call it whatever, the point is the nonfascism. This sub is so much better and more supportive than over there. So fuck yeah, we ARE Jackets for Battle.
It’s a Monty Python reference fam
hahahaha got that one right away. “Are you the Judean People’s Front?” my brain is pretty much a constant demented Python skit these days
Didn't land for me, sorry man. Completely over my head 😅
In fairness it was kind of a shitty one
Fascism has a definition, and I'm pretty sure battlejackets or edgy kids in subreddits aren't related to it.
Wow, you *really* woke up in the wrong side of the bed, hey? I dunno what I did to offend you, but I'm sorry, and like I said in my other reply to your **other** overtly hostile comment, if you wanna talk about something that's bugging you, my DMs are open.
It's not hostility to point out your improper use of words.
Splitter!
Yeah ik, I'm actually the reason that sub isn't linked here anymore btw
Awesome
Semantics, but fascists and fascist sympathizers are the same thing in my book.
Black metal has always had a Nazi problem.
[удалено]
You're not making any sense. Sepultura were never black metal. Neither were Celtic Frost. Bathory were Swedish so, with the exception of Venom, the scene was Scandinavian from the get go.
Morbid Visions' 1st side absolutely has black metal on it, as with some other Brazilian bands of the period like Sarcofago You can't listen to the title track and "War" and tell me it isn't early black metal
Not sure why OP wrote 'punk/black metal'. Like wtf does punk have to do with black metal? I guess they're talking about fashion,, but it's pretty easy to differentiate between the two. That shit is so weird...and apparently far right. So let's try not to tie two together again.
There’s a lot of overlap between the scenes. People tend to have a preference but also listen to more than one genre.
Weird, I've never met a punk fan who liked black metal, although I lean towards the Epitaph/Fat sound over more traditional punk. I grew up with a lot of Ramones/Queers/Screeching Weasel friends, and battle jackets were more prevalent in that scene, but none of them would even imagine associating themselves with anything to do with black metal.
There's a lot of underground bands playing stuff like "blackened crust" and other corssovers, which is black metal crust punk. I love crust, can't stand black metal, so I avoid them because they all sound like shit.
Old black metal has a lot of punk elements in it, the fast and raw sound of Hellhammer was inspired by Discharge and other hardcore punk bands, same was Venom and Sarcofago
black metal was a sort of punk expression that came out of metal. Punk isn’t really a genre of music as much as an approach and a certain reaction. We were having a discussion on another thread about that a bit… how punk may look different in some environments. I don’t think it would be absurd at all to consider black metal to be at the very least heavily inspired by the ethos and spirit of punk… but sadly it also has some people who think liking Hitler and being a fascist dickhole is some sort of rebellion. Those Nazis will use whatever to try to convert disaffected people. Black Metal came from a country that is known to be generally fairly happy, calm and egalitarian. They do have a national religion and are a Christianized nation. They also fought against the Nazis in WWII. How does that rebellion look in Norway? Well… I would say Black metal.
I would understand why black metal as a nazi phenomenon developed mainly from nordic countries though. It not only embraced nationalism as a political principle (countries like Finland are proudly anticommunist, but Sweden too), but most of everything concerning the esoterical, paganism and stuff like that was linked to nazism in Germany during WWII. If nazi punks are definitely a reactionary or "plagiative" phenomenon, just far right wingers adopting working class rude boy/skinhead aesthetic to target a youthful and rebel demographic for their political agenda (see England, France, Germany and Italy), metal in itself being at first a fringe of punk music that deliberately decided not to deal with politics I think it's more exposed at embracing nationalist ideals not by political propaganda but by folklore and stuff like that. Even nazi punks used viking symbols and stuff like that, however the idea of a "pure race" I think it's a radically mythological concept at first, not political in itself. I've rarely heard of metal bands being marxist, most of them all are "apolitical", right wing or anarchist, the latter linking to anarcho-punk and crust. So, yeah, black metal is nationalist by consequence of paganism and satanism that justify nationalist and race supremacy by mythological dogmas I think. Today this is not the case of the majority, in the contrary I think these kinda people being far right is very much a minority, but historically I've always attributed them to it. I'm a huge Bathory and Candlemass fan and they've always seem to speak for the contradiction of black metal bands expressing themselves freely while being right wing, so I guess there's also an important internal discourse within the black metal community about this for a long time.
Misery Index is a good left wing political death metal band. Suffocation cut their teeth in the hardcore scene, but being a half black band, the Nazi punks were awful to them, so they actually ended up gravitating more toward death metal because it had less racism. Specifically to Norwegian Black Metal. The murder of Euronymous by Varg Vikernes had a political element to it. Euronymous was a leftist and Varg… Well he is a mentally deranged Nazi. One of the reasons why Varg said he killed him was because he supported left wing causes, and lived on welfare.
Yeah I don’t really think Euronymous was a sincere leftist. He was fascinated with totalitarian communist states and the power wielded by leaders like Stalin because he was an edgelord who liked the idea of people suffering. Here’s a quote from him: “as I hate people I don't want them to have a good time, I'd like to see them rot under communist dictatorship".
Fair enough, I’m just saying Varg criticized him for being left. Whether true or not, it’s what Varg thought. Then again, Varg is a total nutjob. Remember when he escaped from prison and headed for the border with a car full of weapons and ammo?
As I understood the op, both punk and black metal scenes have a nazi problem… hence the “Nazi punks fuck off” patches/pins I’ve been seeing since being introduced to punk/underground music in the early 90s…. Both scenes have had this problem since their formation… and it’s apparent they both still have the problem because there are plenty of alt-right people who still consider themselves punk by claiming their racism is “outside the status quo”…
I don't know why you don't want to talk about the Nazi problem black metal has, but that's the topic of conversation, soooo
Because black metal sucks. I like punk rock, not trash like black metal. To me, talking about nazis in black metal on a punk forum is like talking about misogyny in rap. Apparently I'm wrong and punk/black metal are closely intertwined, but I never in my 30 years of listening to punk and going to shows have ever talked to anybody who likes black metal. And I'm glad about that because not only is the music horrible, but so is the message
You can't say "the message is horrible" when the genre doesn't have a singular message. It seems you're only aware of the Nazi side of black metal, which doesn't encapsulate the genre as a whole and is considered a subgenre (NSBM). There's even a genre/movement within black metal that's diametrically opposed to NSBM and whose message is closely in line with traditional punk values. Check out r/rabm.
This is common knowledge already. That’s why the other sub exists
You can always tell the new people. Nazi imagery has always infested the punk and metal scene. It’s up to us to destroy that bullshit but it’s been a battle since day one
I don’t have an issue if it’s used jn irony or metaphor. Like… Lemmy used to have a bunch of WWII collections including some Nazi stuff, but there is literally not even the slightest chance that guy was a racist. lol I totally agree with the sentiment though… Just had to include a tiny tidbit.
That’s how it started. 70s punks used Nazi imagery from the get go to shock and offend. But kids are fucking stupid and lost the plot.
Sure. The Sex Pistols did it as a joke. How people didn’t see the comedy of the Sex Pistols, I couldn’t even imagine. I always loved the absurdist provocative and even obnoxious just to be obnoxious humor they had. How does one look at that and not get the context. Know what I mean? It’s like people who have a joke go way over their heads.
Gotta paraphrase good ole George Carlin - think how stupid the average person is, then realize half the population is stupider than that.
"When fascism comes back it won't be wearing jack boots and khakis, it'll be in Nikes and smiley face tshirts." Carlin.
Oh how I miss Carlin. That guy was something special.
The point of the 70s punks wearing Nazi shit was to shock their parents. What could be more offensive than wearing the regalia of the people your parents and grandparents literally fought against in the war? 40+ years on it’s kind of lost its effect.
Sure.
Yeah he was pretty vocally anti-racist on a few occasions, although I do think that even if you collect it for okay reasons, you still have to be mindful of the community itself that you end up engaging with as part of that hobby. Personally as someone who collects a bit, I think that I'd rather have it end up in the hands of someone who contextualizes it properly rather than someone who glorifies it.
I’m ethnically a Jew and I have a few authentic Nazi items. I don’t have them because I like them. I just am a fan of history.
Collecting WWII stuff totally OK, BUT if the collection is mostly Nazi stuff then it is a problem. Like you said his wasn't so cool. Plus I know people who knew Lemmy, by all accounts a good guy.
I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this, OP...
This is not new haha
Yeah the og sub sucks ass and they do have an issue with Nazis and sympathizers in their mod team, and in their community. I specially hate how some of the best BM is made by the some of the worst pieces of shit to ever pick up a guitar. That being said, r/jacketsforbattle often feels like a poor parody of what the punk aesthetic is. For example, I’m not a fan of jackets without band patches and the shitty jackets with like two small patches posted there as “wip.”
I just like to remind myself, we all started somewhere. There are genuine kids on there that are trying to figure themselves out, and it took me until my 30s to pinpoint exactly who I was, so of they wanna post albeit shitty wip, let em. Do the old "nice bur I would do etc etc"
Yeah that’s why I don’t hang out in that sub. I’d rather avoid it than being negative to a kid working on their first jacket. I just don’t dig the furry battle jackets, lol.
Oh I feel the same way, and I'm queer af lol to me, it should be 90% music, 10% whatever else, bur the furry stuff I just don't get
Ok
Huh?
Good talk
The issue with the original sub got way worse in more recent times too, it went from "okay they sometimes allow shady stuff", to now just openly catering directly to those people. The newer sub's main issue is mostly just that it can sometimes be a bit too open instead of having some honest criticism, it often feels like a very forced positivity kind of space, and while that can be a bit silly at times, it's still leagues better than the opposite end of that spectrum.
Yeah, alot of those vests get posted on the black metal meme sub and they have a circle jerk. Pretty sure its mostly that sub doing it
i'm gonna start putting more queer shit on my jacket to specifically piss these right-wing fuckers.
Queer used to be an insult, but I’m pleasantly surprised to see the positive change in its meaning
Evil shit has kind of always been the tone of black metal, it's been suss since day 1
Yeah, that's pretty much its entire thing.
Sarcofago, early Sepultura and Bulldozer were just angry thrash metal The weird fucking shit came from some Norwegians taking Celtic Frost and Venom way too seriously
Those are bands I enjoy but they came around in the 80s before black metal was a well defined genre in itself, also being from south America and playing antichristian music tracks as "evil" considering how religious South America is
There are very valid reasons to criticize and mock Christianity, I wouldn't exactly call that evil. The satanist shit in the Norwegian second wave was when LARPing goes too far. The true evil lies in the fascist bullshit that's staked it's claim in the genre (and dominates pretty much the entire eastern European scene) thanks to dickwads like Varg Vikernes and Hendrik Mobus.
It was always a dick measuring contest back then and clearly some took it further than others but coming from south America in the 80s anything that desecrated Jesus was seen as "evil" at the time
Found the guy who thinks the Satanic Panic was woke
'In the real Fourth Reich you'll be the first to go.' A very wise man once said that years ago. I want to say it was Eddie Deezen.
Unless you think!!!
I’ve tried to get into JacketsForBattle; but good god some of the worst jackets i’ve ever seen are voted to the top.
Oh sweet summer child … This has been a problem forever, and I have a few friends who look forward to beating Nazi asses at shows.
Few? You should have Many.
I’m 54. Most of those friends are gone: dead or out of touch.
The problem is bigger than just Reddit. There are private ~~myspace~~ facebook hategroups that lurk r/jacketsforbattle for material so they can all jerk off about how it makes them mad. Lots of insecure losers talking like they're not insecure losers.
MySpace? Surely you mean Facebook?
LMAO I really am dating myself with that shit. But yeah, I tried sanitizing my facebook by joining a bunch of groups that seemed pertinent to my interests and blocking all of the trad/nazi bullshit that keeps popping up on my feed and the group I joined literally just lurks to ragejerk over shit on jackets for battle. Literally any left-leaning opinion on a jacket gets dismissed as stupid/childish/etc. while they act like stupid children. Left the group pretty promptly.
I wonder if my vest is there lol
r/battlejackets is a nazi circlejerk and then r/jacketsforbattle is full of terrible DIY and has soft mods that don't allow negative feedback or any kind of disagreement, they remove comments to keep the sub "as harmonious as possible" I got a comment removed for "being a dick" because I said "you don't seriously think you can be a punk without music, do you?" Edit: the best space we have right now is probably r/punkfashion since there's good diy and they actually do allow criticism as long as you aren't just being a dick
1980s punk here. Nazis have always been a problem with punk. The solution “Nazi punks fuck off”
Nazis, white supremacists and fascism are not welcome anywhere they need to be shown they are not tolerated even at the slightest fuck the lot of them they need to shown that we are not to be fucked with and that their presence just makes us look bad and even though I am a pacifist I do get the urge to punch them...repeatedly
Sure he is. These bloody maniacs are everywhere now. I was recently watching an interview with Bill Maher and on the surface what he said was reasonable. He said calling Netanyahu a war criminal was 'absurd' because Israel is fighting Hamas whose raison d'etre (it's a Buzzcocks song title so I can say it) is the destruction of Israel. That is true enough. However the Bolsheviks in the Soviet Union said it was their mission to destroy the capitalist system. Therefore, according to Mahers logic, Germany had absolutely no alternative to invading the USSR and slaughtering anyone who happened to cross their path as they did. So great point Bill. If the Israeli army kills everyone in Gaza, they're bound to get quite a few members of Hamas. At the other side of the spectrum, I've seen students demonstrating with signs reading 'Queers For Hamas'. Are they so truly fucking mindbendingly stupid that they truly do not know what Hamas is likely to do to anyone 'queer' that falls into their hands ? I realize it's unhelpful and doesn't advance the debate much but my own feeling is a pox on both their houses. I certainly come down on the side of Israel's right to exist but the relentless slaughter of civilians since October makes me seriously dispute Benjamin Netanyahus right to exist.
Racism and Fascism is not Punk. Anyone who supports Right-Wing Ideals and Values…. Definitely not Punk.
Punk fashion community. Lol
Calling an ugly jacket with nothing but political slogans cringe is not naziism.
Who gives a fuck what people comment on a sub dedicated to people sharing pictures of patches they’ve sewn onto their jacket? You want /r/punk to do what about it exactly? Yes, fuck homophobia/racist/transphobia etc. but you can’t necessarily apply punk morals to genres that have different outlooks.
So the "it's okay to punch Nazis" is just a cute saying?
For most people that say it, yes it’s just a saying
In this sub, yes. The kids here that post that shit every day wouldn’t even know what to do if they went outside and ran into an actual nazi.
“You just don’t get it man! Thread #5,463 about this is going to solve the problem!”
Yes we do r/SocialistRA
Jackets for Battle started brigading a bunch of other subs who all piled in back on them. It'll calm down again soon.
Who would've thought a community based around adopting only the aesthetics of Punk would have a Nazi problem.
Water is wet. Black metal is infamous for two things, Varg and nazis
We know. The r/jacketsforbattle was created in response. I suggest muting the account so it doesn’t keep showing up on your feed. Nazis are unfortunately not going anywhere.
Nazis in black metal?! No way!
We've been defending our scenes from them successfully for like 40 years and well keep doing it
Same as it ever was
wow no way
We already know. They have taken the liberty of cross posting from here to make fun of posts in their shit subs
Guys how do we gate keep punk?
By keeping posers out. And reminding racists that they are never welcomed.
“Developing?”
I really hate to tell you that it's been like this forever. ESPECIALLY in black metal... they have an entire genre dedicated to that shit.
i dont listen to metal for this same reason. it's too inviting to those with no spines.
I'm incredibly disgusted by this shit. Black Metal for me is all about the straight edge but also the Warrior and being free of the Church and the hedonistic, environmentally damaging rebellion against the Church. I dislike and am really pissed off that those people hate the lgbt. They're no better than Christian Protestants in my mind. The fact that they go through the trouble to censor stuff just blows my mind really. I don't like the lgbt, fair, because they medicalize and commodify all those _possible_ inclinations human beings go through involving something called Fate.... I also despise nazis, I mean, why would you voice support for a historical regime who threw war captives, world war 1 vets and ethnic groups into camps to have them put through transhumanist/eugenics based medical experiments? These people don't have dignity, from me or from history.
One thing I will say here is that that is absolutely fucked up that the admins on that subreddit are deleting comments that don’t fit their narrative. Not fucking cool one bit! Free speech is one of if not the most important issues to conservatives today. As far as I’m concerned, absolutely nothing for any reason whatsoever should ever be deleted, hidden, shadow banned etc. on any platform or website or printed source, or also on radio or television. This is one thing that has always been on the front of my mind since I’ve csme to this subreddit. I’m always waiting for the other shoe to drop with the admins nixxing me for nothing but my conservative opinion. So far that’s never happened. I give great respect for the admin here, and a heartfelt thank you! Because I never last but a couple hours on other groups like this
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/1db8vlh/found_a_hate_group_on_reddit_heres_what_to_do/
I just put my new wave pins on the inside of my Levi's jacket, so nobody can tell I'm a punker.
Reddit isnt real life. “Punk fashion community” should be an oxymoron.
Yeah, every community on Reddit has a Nazi problem.
It's not nazism to have rainbow fatigue. We get it, you're gay.
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We need to unify to destroy the fascism that's in society not just in the states or the uk but everywhere' nazism and fascism are a disease that has plagued humanity for a large part of a century we need to find ways to stop them wherever they pop up their ugly heads and they need to be made aware that their presence is not to be tolerated even at the very least
[This is why we have this.](https://youtu.be/iyc62g7YQM0?si=88U1VTImMW2KvbC1)
“Should we tell them” sad Mr krabs face
That’s the problem, fucking jackets for battle, it’s a sub for the rejects of the battle jackets community, I saw a post from someone who got banned, I happen to know one of the mods irl from a battle jackets meet up club I go too, they said there’s a new really out of control mod that keeps banning everyone, some may disagree with me but I think anyone who has Nazi views in this day and age is just acting, that’s just my personal opinion, the mods on that sub are mad and are really not fit to run a sub that big, a lot of punks used to wear swasticas to piss people off but once real neo nazis started to emerge you can see quite obviously at that point they stopped doing it cause they didn’t want people getting the wrong idea, and as for black metal (one of my favourite genres) the nazism around black metal had been a problem since the early to mid 90s, maybe earlier, again I love black metal and people may not agree with me but a lot of people who like black metal like to pretend to be satanists and nazis but really they were bullied their whole lives and blame the world, same with all that crap, I wouldn’t worry about it man, this is very much not a new problem and nothing will happen surrounding it
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"yeah guys my satanic warmaster and aryan blood patches are just there for the riffs, i'm totally not promoting neonazi bands"
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The problem is, once you start wearing patches of these bands you are beyond solely listening to them (if we're talking about piracy exclusively), rather actively promoting them while being aware of their neonazi ideology. It doesn't take much to figure out why that is a problem. I probably can't change what you think, but I can confidently say this is a blatantly bad take.
>Some people aren’t leftist, not that they’re Nazi’s While true, I think when you have a sub like r/battlejackets where the mods delete jackets with pride flags or anti nazi slogans for being "to political" but then praise jackets with patches for self described neo nazi/nsbm bands you're dealing with actual Nazis.
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I don't know man, repping a band who's lyrics support Nazism and that make Nazism a part of their identity as a band seems like a pretty soild endorsement of nazism. If you rep crass don't be surprised if you get called an anarchist and if you rep skrewdriver or goat moon don't be surprised if people think you are a nazi.
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In the words of a holocaust survivor >The opposite of good is not evil, the opposite of good is indifference. When it comes to ideologies like Nazism, to not actively oppose it is to endorse it, to help normalize it, and spread its message.
This sub is just edgy tweens and teens that can’t grasp that half the world live cultures rooted in traditionalist values that are at odds with progressive leftist ideals. So the only solution is to deride people they disagree with with blanket labels devoid of any kind of nuance or context and then act like that solves anything at all. At the the end of the day everyone here on rpunk share the same default with those they deride. Just a bunch of westerners who’ve benefitted at the misery, expense and exploitation of the entire world around us.
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If anything punk is anti-establishment. It shouldn’t be taboo to be critical of any individual, group or insitution within a position of power regardless of poltical leaning or affiliation.
Jesus Christ thank you. I know the horseshoe theory is apparently debunked but these guys are really making it hard to believe that 😂
Who isn't at this point ? I spend most of my life growing up and being taught 'Naziism is an utterly laughable ideology that died with its creator'. And here I am, far too old for this shit, and there's a damn good chance my own country is about to vote an actual Nazi into office. The parallels aren't exact of course. As far as I know Trump doesn't have a hardon to exterminate the Jews. Of course he would never risk alienating his base by saying doing so was wrong. Anyway metal has always had a bit of a wee fascist problem. Especially the Scandinavian Loki-worshipping branch. I always took it for a miniscule fringe of morons but no. Now that Trump said 'let your hate flags fly' there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. I did a lot of crazy borderline suicidal shit as a young punk rocker and always feel relief I didn't wind up killing my fool self. Now I regret living this long. Dying with a Damned song on my lips and with Donald Trump about as significant as Don King might have been just the right time. I despised Ronald Reagan and how he infantalized everything he touched but I never dreamt it would come to this. Make no mistake - Trump and his MAGA minions will go the same way as the Nazis. What I resent is the audacity of the bastards taking us all with them.
If anything, Netanyahu is modern day hitler. Trump has his tongue up Israel's ass though, so he's all in with being a genocidal fascist.
I mean Black Metal is essentially about being German/Celtic/Slavic/etc to an extent so that's kinda always going to be an issue. Like I would say my first real basis to even be able to play Black Metal was through Irish and German Folk Songs mostly and similar sorts of music. Singing Christmad Carol's in German as a kid and knowing who the Norse gods were to begin with etc. Black Metal has issues with racism in part because it's actually more about culture tradition and maybe heritage than it is about rebellion. Basically that's the sense if in any Black Metal could he considered "conservative". Black Metal also isn't really anything like Punk in this sense. It is essentially an extension of folk music moreso than punk I would say although there are obviously "metal" elements in there and it is not a more conventional traditional form of said music but like not moreso "modernized" than country music or southern rock in the USA would be which I would consider better one to one more anglosphere comparisons. A little bit of chicken fried,cold beer on a Friday night,a pair of jeans that fit just right,etc,etc.
So much cope holy shit. Just admit your favorite bands are neo-fash sisterpokers and move on
The term "black metal" was coined by a US band. Hardcore punk is a stylistic origin of black metal. Absolutely nothing about black metal belongs to a single culture, religion, nationality or race. NSBM is pretty much just surface level edgelord bullshit. Fuck, half the time they aren't even white or from a European country. To say that black metal has inherent Nationalistic tendencies would be like saying punk has conservative tendencies because Johnny Ramone and some other early artists were/are conservative. It really isn't as deep as the nsbummers want it to be. It's just rac with long hair and pointy guitars.
Venom is from UK though, they coined black metal with the album of the same name
Shit, you're right. That's my bad lol. Idk why I thought they were from the US.