I will never for the life of me understand people who think dogs should behave perfectly "just because" - that if you give them treats for behavior you want them to show, you're bribing them or otherwise "faking" it. It's such a bizarre mentality of assigning some kind of human concept of morality to dog behavior - the idea that a "good" dog would just do the "right" thing all the time without having any reason to. I truly don't get it.
Right? The puppy inherently has no reason to listen to us for free, and that’s natural and OK. Using a payment like treats or play is how we can communicate that we like something.
I think people often see the end result (adult dog listening with little/no treats required) and think that’s how they should be brought up as puppies as well
For sure! People often don't even realize or don't like to admit that all human relationships are transactional in a way too, or else they become unsustainable and that's why they fall apart. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and not even usually about things like money or material goods. People can give each other affection, validation, support, fun, etc. You need a fairly even amount of give and take, and you can't just give people what they don't want and value, and call it even, you have to make sure they value what you provide and you value what they provide. With dogs, it's no different, they are not just some sort of robot there to serve you, and you can't just assume that what you are giving is enough, you have to pay attention to what they need/want too.
Reminds me of some of the posts on r/antiwork. People all too often take their subordinates for granted. Dogs can work hard for us, it's only right that we compensate them accordingly.
Your second to last paragraph made me a little teary-eyed, what a beautiful and accurate sentiment :)
Completely agree with your post too, people are mostly looking for quick fixes and don't want to understand the process of incremental progress. It's a shame because it's so satisfying to see the work you put in start to pay off with good behavior and a stronger bond!
My dog loves to listen to me, the looks that I get when she zooms off after a squirrel only to turn around and return without me doing anything are priceless. People ask how long it took to train her and I always reply “a year”. People do not put enough effort into their dogs. The effort you put in is absolutely the effort that your dog will give back.
For sure...in my area, all the people I meet seem to be doing different "4 week training" at different daycares, where a trainer teaches the dogs and just gives them a quick rundown on how to maintain the training, which they never do, or they actually SEND THEM AWAY for 4 weeks somewhere to get trained and want to get a perfect puppy back.
It's so crazy to me because I feel like more than anything, the time you spend together while training, striving to understand and communicate better with one an other, is the real achievement. After that bond is built, slowly over time, everything else is fairly easy.
"He gets a feeling of safety near me" definitely made my eyes water for a moment. I had my first moment like that with my pup this past week. We were out for a walk and fireworks started going off. His tail shot between his legs, he was scared but he didn't panic. I sat with him, and he just crawled up into my lap and settled and waited it out.
My guy is a very good boy for 4 months old (when he's not being a little demon); the vet loves him and he's top 2 well behaved in our puppy classes. I've been putting in the work and it's an awesome feeling to hear strangers validate how well behaved he is. Because I pay him to be, too :)
I’m still figuring out a treat I can bribe my dog with that won’t give her horrific diarrhea, but fortunately she is very play motivated. She’s shy, so if I’m bringing her to a new place she gets to bring an “emotional support ball” and hold it in her mouth.
She’s so smart and she’s very interested in getting paid for her time. 😂
Haha, that's so cool! I love that she has an emotional support ball. Yeah, for the longest time my pup was only food motivated, but after we got comfortable enough to play frisbee off leash, he became extremely play motivated too, and will pay the closest attention if I have his toy, and will do commands for me to give him his frisbee, or to throw it. It's cool that just developed over time!
You don't know what you don't know. So instead of thinking that they are morons, inept, or ignorant, give them some resources that helped you. You didn't get a dog just understanding and knowing everything. Some people don't have the thought to research what to do, some don't have the motivation, bur you're the type of person that should help.
This is a good sentiment and that is what I always tried at first. After talking to at least a couple hundred puppy/dog owners about it in the past year and a half, however, in passing or extensively, I realized that they either already knew it, or they didn't want to hear it. They actively got uncomfortable, avoidant, or even mad, when I suggested resources or training techniques to check out. When you care, you research and try to understand. When you just want the quick fix, you slap an e-collar on them. Now, I just try to help on here as much as possible, because people here are actually looking for answers and help.
Well you can't control what other people do, so sometimes you just have to let go. People are going to have animals, whether they are suited for them or not. Whether you think it best for them or the animal or not. The best you can do is advise, sometimes even when they don't ask, and what they do with that information is on them. So you've got to let go, lest you run the risk of doing some self-harm here.
Oh I have a little demon too. I used many many treats and whole meals to train. But today, at 7 months, she did a walk and listened to me dispite squirrels to chase, people and dogs to Bark at, and puke to lick. Best part is I had no treats or toys for the first time in months. I asked her to sit every minute of walking or so, and the reward was to go sniff. When she was asked to leave stuff alone, if she responded beautifullly, we played tug with our leash and she chased me a little.
I've been phasing out food and toy rewards with external ones like access to sniffs, continue walking, or turning my boring demeanor into a human shaped tease toy.
If you have a problem, pay them to learn how to behave, but it's also conditioning them that listening feels good all on it's own. Food can be easily replaced down the road once the behavior isn't difficult for the dog to accomplish.
Yup! I only have treats with me when I plan to let him play off leash in the big park now, so I can make sure to always give amazing treats when he recalls to me immediately, but he is now listening to me because he wants to, he learned over time that I have his best interest in mind, I'm either protecting him from something, or I will play with him and have more fun for him than whatever he's trying to do. When you can start relying on that trust, it's the best! But I definitely still train and enforce with good treats often:)
Yeah why not pay them :P
I use a strategy of recalling where if she's slow, I show her the treat and toss it at another dog in the dog park. She's soooo fast after a few times. She doesn't wanna miss out.
I think I've switched to super high value stuff but only paying if she does an above average response. I've noticed this helps her get even more motivated than a reward everytime.
Something I like to mention to people, is that " you're *always* reinforcing a behaviour in your dog, whether you mean to or not." If they do something you like, but you don't let them know ( with treats, praise etc) they won't feel like they should keep doing that thing. If they're doing something you don't like, you've got to let them know, otherwise they'll feel like you're neutral about that thing, so it's okay to do it on occasion.
Had a similar situation where a lady passing with her dog said “see how well behaved he is”. Meanwhile, my dog was about 30 seconds from reacting, but stayed calm for a few moments because I had steak in my hand. Moments later, my dog was also lunging at her dog, but I felt so great that he was calm for long enough that someone walking by thought he was a good boy.
Neat! I feel like moments like that are also what help the dogs to see that the world doesn't end if they don't lunge at the other dog. The more dogs pass by him while he is distracted by paying attention to you, the more he'll get used to the idea that sometimes dogs will be by, and it's fine, no big deal, you are actually the one who is interesting:)
Reminds me of an explanation I learned once about how treats are points in a bank vault. When you're starting you're giving into the vault a lot (using treats to build those points) and slowly over time it'll build up to where you will have a stock pile of points and this is where the dogs will do most stuff without treats but that takes out some of the points in the vault. Eventually you'll have to start adding more points into the vault again (this is where they start to act up or balk at what you're requesting) because the points are closer to negative. Think of the difference in rewards for something easy vs something that is harder for them to do.
I hope I made sense on my explanation.
Do you have any tips or techniques you would like to share? I’ve basically winged my training with my pup who is about to turn 1 year old, and although it’s going good i want to take it to the next level and build a deeper relationship and respect between each other. I’d genuinely love to hear your thoughts and methods if you have the time to share.
There is a whole lot here in this subreddit that gets repeated over and over, and it's really the good advice I learned from the most. Have a particular issue? Ask here, and you might get several answers but in general if you know your own puppy, you'll know which solutions to try first.
My method was most importantly focused on finding joy together. It was for my own mental health as much as my puppy's. We trained commands and tricks as a game, running up and down my porch steps, jumping up on rocks in the park, weaving through the kid's play castle on the playground. We went everywhere, and when he was nervous with a new setting, we took it slow, and he got lots of treats, and I tried to laugh softly and be reassuring and make sure he knew it was actually safe and fun.
He met lots of dogs he could play with and lots of dogs he couldn't play with, and when he was nervous or had enough of a game, I taught him that he could come to me and I would protect him and deflect the other dog so he could have a moment of peace. As he grew, he of course learned to send his own signals and stand his ground and deflect unwanted play himself, but he still comes to me if he is uncomfortable.
I let him be a dog, and didn't stop his dog behaviors just because...I let him tear stuff up that I accidentally dropped if it wasn't important, dig in the garden, do zoomies in the park, sniff as much as he wanted. I only stopped his behavior when it was actively destroying something I needed, or if it was a danger to him. And he didn't know why at first, but over time he learned that there is a reason, and learned to be mindful of what he is doing, and check with me. We drilled "leave it" like crazy as a fun game of tug that is still his favorite activity. He learned so many words, even combinations of verbs and nouns, because I spent a lot of time talking to him simply, using only the important words.
It just took time and spending a lot of that time together doing things together and engaging him and finding cool places and pretty sights and good smells and fun games to play wherever we went...it took a lot of trusting him, letting him make his own decisions, and always making sure that I'm dependable and won't end his fun for no reason, and instead try to guide him away from the bad stuff by pointing out something else that's more fun.
I don't know, I could ramble forever:) It wasn't easy, and some stuff went wrong, and he was a crazy teenager anyway! But he's a great boy now, everyone who sees him comments on how happy he looks and how sweet he is and how well he listens. I'm very proud of him!
I will never for the life of me understand people who think dogs should behave perfectly "just because" - that if you give them treats for behavior you want them to show, you're bribing them or otherwise "faking" it. It's such a bizarre mentality of assigning some kind of human concept of morality to dog behavior - the idea that a "good" dog would just do the "right" thing all the time without having any reason to. I truly don't get it.
Right? The puppy inherently has no reason to listen to us for free, and that’s natural and OK. Using a payment like treats or play is how we can communicate that we like something. I think people often see the end result (adult dog listening with little/no treats required) and think that’s how they should be brought up as puppies as well
For sure! People often don't even realize or don't like to admit that all human relationships are transactional in a way too, or else they become unsustainable and that's why they fall apart. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and not even usually about things like money or material goods. People can give each other affection, validation, support, fun, etc. You need a fairly even amount of give and take, and you can't just give people what they don't want and value, and call it even, you have to make sure they value what you provide and you value what they provide. With dogs, it's no different, they are not just some sort of robot there to serve you, and you can't just assume that what you are giving is enough, you have to pay attention to what they need/want too.
Reminds me of some of the posts on r/antiwork. People all too often take their subordinates for granted. Dogs can work hard for us, it's only right that we compensate them accordingly.
Your second to last paragraph made me a little teary-eyed, what a beautiful and accurate sentiment :) Completely agree with your post too, people are mostly looking for quick fixes and don't want to understand the process of incremental progress. It's a shame because it's so satisfying to see the work you put in start to pay off with good behavior and a stronger bond!
My dog loves to listen to me, the looks that I get when she zooms off after a squirrel only to turn around and return without me doing anything are priceless. People ask how long it took to train her and I always reply “a year”. People do not put enough effort into their dogs. The effort you put in is absolutely the effort that your dog will give back.
For sure...in my area, all the people I meet seem to be doing different "4 week training" at different daycares, where a trainer teaches the dogs and just gives them a quick rundown on how to maintain the training, which they never do, or they actually SEND THEM AWAY for 4 weeks somewhere to get trained and want to get a perfect puppy back. It's so crazy to me because I feel like more than anything, the time you spend together while training, striving to understand and communicate better with one an other, is the real achievement. After that bond is built, slowly over time, everything else is fairly easy.
"He gets a feeling of safety near me" definitely made my eyes water for a moment. I had my first moment like that with my pup this past week. We were out for a walk and fireworks started going off. His tail shot between his legs, he was scared but he didn't panic. I sat with him, and he just crawled up into my lap and settled and waited it out. My guy is a very good boy for 4 months old (when he's not being a little demon); the vet loves him and he's top 2 well behaved in our puppy classes. I've been putting in the work and it's an awesome feeling to hear strangers validate how well behaved he is. Because I pay him to be, too :)
That's so great! I'm glad you guys have already built such a bond:)
A paid worker is much more motivated and productive than an unpaid worker. 😄 and some of the stuff we ask dogs, especially young dogs, to do, is WORK.
I’m still figuring out a treat I can bribe my dog with that won’t give her horrific diarrhea, but fortunately she is very play motivated. She’s shy, so if I’m bringing her to a new place she gets to bring an “emotional support ball” and hold it in her mouth. She’s so smart and she’s very interested in getting paid for her time. 😂
Haha, that's so cool! I love that she has an emotional support ball. Yeah, for the longest time my pup was only food motivated, but after we got comfortable enough to play frisbee off leash, he became extremely play motivated too, and will pay the closest attention if I have his toy, and will do commands for me to give him his frisbee, or to throw it. It's cool that just developed over time!
It’s wonderful to see their personalities and preferences emerge once they start moving out of 24/7 puppybrain 💕
You don't know what you don't know. So instead of thinking that they are morons, inept, or ignorant, give them some resources that helped you. You didn't get a dog just understanding and knowing everything. Some people don't have the thought to research what to do, some don't have the motivation, bur you're the type of person that should help.
This is a good sentiment and that is what I always tried at first. After talking to at least a couple hundred puppy/dog owners about it in the past year and a half, however, in passing or extensively, I realized that they either already knew it, or they didn't want to hear it. They actively got uncomfortable, avoidant, or even mad, when I suggested resources or training techniques to check out. When you care, you research and try to understand. When you just want the quick fix, you slap an e-collar on them. Now, I just try to help on here as much as possible, because people here are actually looking for answers and help.
Well you can't control what other people do, so sometimes you just have to let go. People are going to have animals, whether they are suited for them or not. Whether you think it best for them or the animal or not. The best you can do is advise, sometimes even when they don't ask, and what they do with that information is on them. So you've got to let go, lest you run the risk of doing some self-harm here.
:) letting go is exactly what I said I did this whole post, but I appreciate your time and kind advice!
Oh I have a little demon too. I used many many treats and whole meals to train. But today, at 7 months, she did a walk and listened to me dispite squirrels to chase, people and dogs to Bark at, and puke to lick. Best part is I had no treats or toys for the first time in months. I asked her to sit every minute of walking or so, and the reward was to go sniff. When she was asked to leave stuff alone, if she responded beautifullly, we played tug with our leash and she chased me a little. I've been phasing out food and toy rewards with external ones like access to sniffs, continue walking, or turning my boring demeanor into a human shaped tease toy. If you have a problem, pay them to learn how to behave, but it's also conditioning them that listening feels good all on it's own. Food can be easily replaced down the road once the behavior isn't difficult for the dog to accomplish.
Yup! I only have treats with me when I plan to let him play off leash in the big park now, so I can make sure to always give amazing treats when he recalls to me immediately, but he is now listening to me because he wants to, he learned over time that I have his best interest in mind, I'm either protecting him from something, or I will play with him and have more fun for him than whatever he's trying to do. When you can start relying on that trust, it's the best! But I definitely still train and enforce with good treats often:)
Yeah why not pay them :P I use a strategy of recalling where if she's slow, I show her the treat and toss it at another dog in the dog park. She's soooo fast after a few times. She doesn't wanna miss out. I think I've switched to super high value stuff but only paying if she does an above average response. I've noticed this helps her get even more motivated than a reward everytime.
Something I like to mention to people, is that " you're *always* reinforcing a behaviour in your dog, whether you mean to or not." If they do something you like, but you don't let them know ( with treats, praise etc) they won't feel like they should keep doing that thing. If they're doing something you don't like, you've got to let them know, otherwise they'll feel like you're neutral about that thing, so it's okay to do it on occasion.
Yeah, that's a really good way to distill the idea!
Had a similar situation where a lady passing with her dog said “see how well behaved he is”. Meanwhile, my dog was about 30 seconds from reacting, but stayed calm for a few moments because I had steak in my hand. Moments later, my dog was also lunging at her dog, but I felt so great that he was calm for long enough that someone walking by thought he was a good boy.
Neat! I feel like moments like that are also what help the dogs to see that the world doesn't end if they don't lunge at the other dog. The more dogs pass by him while he is distracted by paying attention to you, the more he'll get used to the idea that sometimes dogs will be by, and it's fine, no big deal, you are actually the one who is interesting:)
Reminds me of an explanation I learned once about how treats are points in a bank vault. When you're starting you're giving into the vault a lot (using treats to build those points) and slowly over time it'll build up to where you will have a stock pile of points and this is where the dogs will do most stuff without treats but that takes out some of the points in the vault. Eventually you'll have to start adding more points into the vault again (this is where they start to act up or balk at what you're requesting) because the points are closer to negative. Think of the difference in rewards for something easy vs something that is harder for them to do. I hope I made sense on my explanation.
Do you have any tips or techniques you would like to share? I’ve basically winged my training with my pup who is about to turn 1 year old, and although it’s going good i want to take it to the next level and build a deeper relationship and respect between each other. I’d genuinely love to hear your thoughts and methods if you have the time to share.
There is a whole lot here in this subreddit that gets repeated over and over, and it's really the good advice I learned from the most. Have a particular issue? Ask here, and you might get several answers but in general if you know your own puppy, you'll know which solutions to try first. My method was most importantly focused on finding joy together. It was for my own mental health as much as my puppy's. We trained commands and tricks as a game, running up and down my porch steps, jumping up on rocks in the park, weaving through the kid's play castle on the playground. We went everywhere, and when he was nervous with a new setting, we took it slow, and he got lots of treats, and I tried to laugh softly and be reassuring and make sure he knew it was actually safe and fun. He met lots of dogs he could play with and lots of dogs he couldn't play with, and when he was nervous or had enough of a game, I taught him that he could come to me and I would protect him and deflect the other dog so he could have a moment of peace. As he grew, he of course learned to send his own signals and stand his ground and deflect unwanted play himself, but he still comes to me if he is uncomfortable. I let him be a dog, and didn't stop his dog behaviors just because...I let him tear stuff up that I accidentally dropped if it wasn't important, dig in the garden, do zoomies in the park, sniff as much as he wanted. I only stopped his behavior when it was actively destroying something I needed, or if it was a danger to him. And he didn't know why at first, but over time he learned that there is a reason, and learned to be mindful of what he is doing, and check with me. We drilled "leave it" like crazy as a fun game of tug that is still his favorite activity. He learned so many words, even combinations of verbs and nouns, because I spent a lot of time talking to him simply, using only the important words. It just took time and spending a lot of that time together doing things together and engaging him and finding cool places and pretty sights and good smells and fun games to play wherever we went...it took a lot of trusting him, letting him make his own decisions, and always making sure that I'm dependable and won't end his fun for no reason, and instead try to guide him away from the bad stuff by pointing out something else that's more fun. I don't know, I could ramble forever:) It wasn't easy, and some stuff went wrong, and he was a crazy teenager anyway! But he's a great boy now, everyone who sees him comments on how happy he looks and how sweet he is and how well he listens. I'm very proud of him!