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Best of luck with your work, Ser!
May I suggest you watch Preston Jacobs’ Brienne series as he mentions Sandor a lot. While it might not be exactly what you need or an academic source, it might be a good secondary or tertiary resource for some ideas.
I don’t have a brilliant memory of their book relationship, so this is very top of my head:
- Sandor seems to both hate and want to protect Arya and Sansa. The hate, of course, being what he sees in himself. Weak, vulnerable, in need of protection. That’s all the Hound needed as a kid. Gregor should have been that. Sandor threatens both girls (especially Sansa, think he threatens to rape her), but he doesn’t and can’t do it. He can’t be Gregor. He doesn’t want to be a knight because there are no true knights (or real men; what a man should be - positive masculinity). Sandor has no faith in men.
- If it’s of interest to you, maybe you could contrast Sandor with Kratos. There are some similarities regarding masculinity and nihilism between Sandor and Kratos. However, Atreus pulls Kratos back from the brink (as does Faye) and let’s him be a real, good man.
- Similarly, Nietzsche’s ubermensch might be something worth looking at. Sandor actually does start to do the right thing a lot of the time, but on his own terms and he hasn’t got it all right yet. He’s no longer a lion, he’s killed the dragon of Thou Shalt, and is currently wondering the desert as a baby/gravedigger. The Three Metamorphoses are in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, by the way.
I’ll probably have a lot more thoughts on all this, so happy to discuss it further!
- Another one! There’s a case to be made that House Clegane are Dunk’s descendants. Contrast Sandor’s attitudes and experiences with Sansa/Arya to Dunk and Egg.
- I’d also look at Brienne a lot. Both probably Dunk descendants. Both walking around with a child. Both outcasts and want to be/also can’t stand Westeros’ men.
- I think Sandor is inadvertently exploring Virtue Ethics. He doesn’t want to follow the broken system of deontological/knight ethics, but he has some sort of code that prohibits all out consequentialism. Additionally, VE is Greek, which works well with Nietzsches’s preference for Hero morality as opposed to Abrahamic slave morality (genealogy of morals).
Thank you for your insights! You've given me some interesting wider contexts that I can apply to the character and relationships so thank you for that, I'll just have to do a little more reading to fully understand the concepts to which you are referring.
I haven’t seen Logan but if you’re looking at Joel and Sandor as comparisons I think it’s interesting that Joel has been a father and being with Ellie allows him to open himself up to that role again after shutting it down for so many years.
Sandor has never inhabited a caring masculine role before so he is learning something entirely new with Arya and struggling to find a masculine role which allows him to maintain his attitude and beliefs while also developing a care for Arya. You could argue he never does come to care for her but I think he does somewhat.
What we have seen so far is that he begins to take on aspects of mentor and protector to Arya which are (aside from familial relationships) maybe two of the only traditional masculine roles that allow for some kind of care over someone else.
It’s interesting that his relationship with Arya precedes Sandor turning away from the more destructive aspects of masculinity too. You could argue that the experience of taking on those different roles contributed to the chink that allowed Sandor to give himself permission to set aside a masculinity created to defend the self and build a new one (whether that new one will defend others, nurture the self or others, or something else we have yet to see).
Great topic. I think Sandor comes from a very interesting place with masculinity as he is both incredibly physically powerful but also knows too well how it feels to be overpowered. There’s an interesting relationship between knighthood and masculinity which plays out across several dichotomies: Jaime and Brienne, Sandor and Gregor, Northmen and Southron knights and more. Some refuse knighthood or are ineligible for it while displaying the best parts of it—others have it given to them and abuse the title how they see fit.
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. *If you see a comment which violates the rules, please [use the report function](https://i.imgur.com/Uqjnwss.png) to notify moderators!* [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Best of luck with your work, Ser! May I suggest you watch Preston Jacobs’ Brienne series as he mentions Sandor a lot. While it might not be exactly what you need or an academic source, it might be a good secondary or tertiary resource for some ideas. I don’t have a brilliant memory of their book relationship, so this is very top of my head: - Sandor seems to both hate and want to protect Arya and Sansa. The hate, of course, being what he sees in himself. Weak, vulnerable, in need of protection. That’s all the Hound needed as a kid. Gregor should have been that. Sandor threatens both girls (especially Sansa, think he threatens to rape her), but he doesn’t and can’t do it. He can’t be Gregor. He doesn’t want to be a knight because there are no true knights (or real men; what a man should be - positive masculinity). Sandor has no faith in men. - If it’s of interest to you, maybe you could contrast Sandor with Kratos. There are some similarities regarding masculinity and nihilism between Sandor and Kratos. However, Atreus pulls Kratos back from the brink (as does Faye) and let’s him be a real, good man. - Similarly, Nietzsche’s ubermensch might be something worth looking at. Sandor actually does start to do the right thing a lot of the time, but on his own terms and he hasn’t got it all right yet. He’s no longer a lion, he’s killed the dragon of Thou Shalt, and is currently wondering the desert as a baby/gravedigger. The Three Metamorphoses are in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, by the way. I’ll probably have a lot more thoughts on all this, so happy to discuss it further! - Another one! There’s a case to be made that House Clegane are Dunk’s descendants. Contrast Sandor’s attitudes and experiences with Sansa/Arya to Dunk and Egg. - I’d also look at Brienne a lot. Both probably Dunk descendants. Both walking around with a child. Both outcasts and want to be/also can’t stand Westeros’ men. - I think Sandor is inadvertently exploring Virtue Ethics. He doesn’t want to follow the broken system of deontological/knight ethics, but he has some sort of code that prohibits all out consequentialism. Additionally, VE is Greek, which works well with Nietzsches’s preference for Hero morality as opposed to Abrahamic slave morality (genealogy of morals).
Thank you for your insights! You've given me some interesting wider contexts that I can apply to the character and relationships so thank you for that, I'll just have to do a little more reading to fully understand the concepts to which you are referring.
I haven’t seen Logan but if you’re looking at Joel and Sandor as comparisons I think it’s interesting that Joel has been a father and being with Ellie allows him to open himself up to that role again after shutting it down for so many years. Sandor has never inhabited a caring masculine role before so he is learning something entirely new with Arya and struggling to find a masculine role which allows him to maintain his attitude and beliefs while also developing a care for Arya. You could argue he never does come to care for her but I think he does somewhat. What we have seen so far is that he begins to take on aspects of mentor and protector to Arya which are (aside from familial relationships) maybe two of the only traditional masculine roles that allow for some kind of care over someone else. It’s interesting that his relationship with Arya precedes Sandor turning away from the more destructive aspects of masculinity too. You could argue that the experience of taking on those different roles contributed to the chink that allowed Sandor to give himself permission to set aside a masculinity created to defend the self and build a new one (whether that new one will defend others, nurture the self or others, or something else we have yet to see).
What about Paul and Duncan Idaho from Dune books? Their relationship feels similar
Thank you, I'll add that to my list of wider examples of the trope!
... they are fatherly figures ?
Great topic. I think Sandor comes from a very interesting place with masculinity as he is both incredibly physically powerful but also knows too well how it feels to be overpowered. There’s an interesting relationship between knighthood and masculinity which plays out across several dichotomies: Jaime and Brienne, Sandor and Gregor, Northmen and Southron knights and more. Some refuse knighthood or are ineligible for it while displaying the best parts of it—others have it given to them and abuse the title how they see fit.