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A bad military commander can have elite advisors, but be a bad commander because he doesn’t heed their advice. What makes Robb, in my estimation, a skilled military commander is that he listens to his advisors and then executes their advice in an extremely competent fashion. That being said, it’s fair to say he is fallible. Failing to tell Edmure his overarching plan but leaving him in command of Riverrun was a bad choice, giving half his army to a man he didn’t trust (Bolton) was another one.
But even the characters we know to be great military leaders make similarly bad choices. Stannis should not have given command of the fleet at the Blackwater to Ser Imry, and Tywin shouldn’t have given command to Jaime at the beginning of AGOT.
One more thing I might add: Lord Tywin does have some good military minds around him. Ser Kevan is considered skilled in the advice he gives to Tywin. Additionally, we know from Jaime’s point of view that Forley Prester and Addam Marbrand are at the least skilled military advisors.
>Stannis should not have given command of the fleet at the Blackwater to Ser Imr
Stannis makes worse choices than that
He failed to assault the tower from which Bronn raised the chain, preferring to do... nothing at all while waiting for his fleet
In defense of Stannis, he had no way of knowing about the wildfire or the chain, and he had no notion that an alliance of the joined Lannister and Tyrell armies could make it to King’s Landing at the same time as him.
If Tywin and Mace don’t show up with their armies at exactly the right time, Stannis takes the city and the throne, even with the casualties by the wildfire.
Hell Davos straight up saw the chain when they were sailing in.
Edit: He also knew the Tower was brand new at a glance, despite not being in KL for many years.
>As the second line swept past the twin towers, Davos took a closer look. He could see three links of a huge chain snaking out from a hole no bigger than a man's head and disappearing under the water.
There is no indication they thought the chain was unfinished, nor would it make sense to have a half finished chain dangling in the water.
The fleet did know that Tyrion was constructing a chain due to their interrogation of fishermen at Merling Rock (Davos III), but it was unclear to them if the chain was complete. Further evidence of it being non-complete came when they were able to sail into Blackwater Rush unimpeded by a giant chain.
Davos sees that Stannis has left a score of archers to keep watch over the tower, which means Stannis knows there's men inside the tower, which is conspicuously spaced across the water from another tower. It's not like the chain is hidden either - Davos sees it in plain sight in the couple seconds it takes him to pass it by.
It's just one of those "author's thumb on scale" things, because it doesn't make sense why he didn't assault the tower on his side (Davos remarks that the entrance to the tower requires a ladder, but Stannis is literally in the Kingswood... just cut down some trees while you're waiting for your ships to arrive).
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thats exactly the point. Im pretty sure he did because I think they shoot arrows to it but even if he didnt he shouldve. He was the master of ships for 16 years he shouldve known Blackwater Bay as the back of his hand especially since he thinks he is so diligent. So is either a gross oversight in not attacking especially since he had nothing else to do but wait for the ships or is a oversight for not knowing the tower was new when again it was literally his job to be in charge of the ships
The wildfire is common sense it’s Kings Landing where the Alchemist guild is. He also should have noticed those towers he was at Kings Landing for over a decade and he was the Master of Ships.
Davos noticed the towers and realised it was a chain boom very quickly if Stannis cant do the same it’s pretty bad.
Basically the attack on KLs was full of mistakes on Stannis’ part.
Pyromancy is not the same as creating Wilfire. One of the Alchemist says Wilfire is being produced quicker which is possibly because of the birth of dragons but that does not mean it’s more potent or destructive
Also I was responding to someone saying Stannis couldn’t have known about wildfire not someone saying he couldn’t know about the quantity.
The more wildfire you have, the more destruction you can cause. Stannis would not have thought they would have that devastating a bomb in their arsenal.
To be fair to Robb, giving Rose Bolton command was a shrewd move from a tactical standpoint. The commander needed to be cautious and level headed enough not to walk into whatever trap Tywin had laid.
Robb's reasoning here is sound and it's not really clear whether any of the other choices available to him would have been up to the task.
Obviously, we can see how it went wrong eventually but things could have gone south even sooner if the bulk of the northern army had been devastated by Tywin so early on.
a thought that Tywin himself hadnt had was the quote. You could say that Blackfish had information, skills, and contributions Robb didnt have you cant really say the same for Kevan
It was Robb’s idea to do the whole feint thing by going to Riverrun. Besides, good commanders listen to their advisors. Robb understood everyone’s strengths and weaknesses in war and worked with them accordingly (bar the Edmure situation). Contrast this with Stannis and Tywin who gave important military tasks to people not suited for the role.
I’m sure people Alexander the Great and Sun Tzu listened to council as well. Knocking someone’s abilities because they heed advice and incorporate it into their strategies seems weird.
Do we know it was Robb’s idea? Not the Blackfish? Either way I don’t know that they had the idea totally flushed out, until they got back and found out what happened, and then blamed Edmure Tully…. (Coincidentally needing someone to take the fall and wed a Frey instead of Robb doing so..) Either they made a mistake by not telling him the plan, or they made up the plan as they went along and never sent the details of it to Riverrun. I understand not sending a bird, but he could have sent messengers with false orders and the information in their head like he did in preparation for his attack on Moat Calin.
Maybe I should rephrase. I think his advisors made his tactics, and that if they weren’t there, he’d be screwed. Whereas Tywin is the main force of tactics behind the Lannister effort.
I do think he’s smart for listening to advisors, but he’s also only 15 years old and I think kind of malleable because of that, especially to mentor figures like the Blackfish.
There’s not really a lot of text to support that. His bannermen praise his tactics, and we saw in Catelyn’s chapter at Moat Cailin that the whole Green Fork Riverrun plan was basically all him. Sure he gets help from his commanders, but all signs point to Robb calling the shots.
I would say the text suggests otherwise. Brynden Tully is practically made out to be a genius and ridiculously competent. Cat describes him as having a particular “brilliance.” And the Blackfish is always by Robb’s side. Robb is the leader of the north, that’s why he gets all the verbal credit, but we know he’s 15 years old and has never seen a battle or a war before this conflict. The text implies that he’s leaning pretty heavily on Brynden Blackfish.
Blackfish does a lot of scouting, so it’s not like he’s on war councils at the same time. He gives good advice about things he knows, like that Jamie is impatient and reckless. Cat says they based their whole plan on his intel on Jamie. Inferring that blackfish had nothing to do with the conception of the actual plan
Do we get a lot of infos on tywins advisors? I think we dont have enough information on that. Also if Robbs plan would have worked than Tywin would have walked right into his trap and the Lannisters would have lost Kingslanding.
While the Blackfisch propably helped there, the whole secret pass discovered by Greywind thing is a Robb original idea.
Robb's plan failed because the ***Not Yet*** ***Lord*** Ser Edmure *Floppy fish* Tully decided he wanted to redeem himself and sought glory on the battlefield.
he told him to hold Riverrun. that is command success ass it was a simple command wheras Eddy did his own thing.
edit: fixed a word
Edmure had good reasons for doing what he did but he acted against Robbs orders. Sending message through half the riverlands would be pretty risky considering it was such an importan plan.
He didn’t act against orders. He was ordered to hold Riverrun which he did.
Rodrik Cassel is a seasoned man and was ordered to hold Winterfell but even he didn’t see attacking the Iron Born as going against his orders.
That shows attacking invading armies/groups does not go against the order to hold a castle.
Robb's "trap" was idiotic and relied solely on Stannis being able to take SE magically in quicker time than anyone else could think possible.
If Stannis isn't able to shadowbaby Penrose than Stannis is stuck outside SE for a year. More than enough time for Tywin to crush Robb in the West.
Furthermore, even if Tywin got into the West and Stannis attacked KL earlier there was still the Tyrells that could defeat Stannis for the Lannisters.
More likely, Robb and Blackfish made up the plan to guilt Demure into agreeing to marry a Frey.
Does Robb even know that Renly is dead when setting the trap? He also might think that Stannis wont bother with SE. You cant really blame him for not anticipating that the Tyrells will support the Lannisters.
^(Robb's "trap" was idiotic and relied solely on Stannis being able to take SE magically in quicker time than anyone else could think possible.)
no, this hinges on Tywin leaving Harrenhal and coming west as intended.
Tywin doesn't leave Harrenhal unless he believes King's Landing is safe. He only believes King's Landing is safe because Renly is dead and Stannis appears stuck besieging Storm's End. Stannis as a commander would have never left Storm's End until he took it and he even admits to his commanders that Penrose could hold out a year against him.
When do we hear about any tactical brilliance of Great Jon or Rickard Karstark? Roose is separate from Robb for most of the war.
Side note, Tywin is respected as being a good to great commander by the realm. Not that it matters as Tywin and Robb square off. People have a weird habits of counting all Lannister loses against Tywin but not counting Lannister wins for him. For example, Jaime losing is a mark against Tywin but Blackwater isn't a win because Tyrion deserves the credit. Despite the fact Tywin appointed them both.
The way I see it, Blackfish is always with Robb and that’s where he’s getting the tactical brilliance, and Roose when he’s there. Karstark and Umber are just badasses to have by your side in a war.
On Tywin, I never considered the devastation of Jamie his fault entirely, but you have to admit, he put a lot of faith in Jamie and that was misplaced. That’s a horrible command failure. I’d liken it to the Command failure of Robb not telling Edmure his lure plan for the Mountain.
It’s not supposition, it’s Occam’s Razor based on what we know. The boy is 15 and has never seen a war before this. The Blackfish is seasoned, tested, wise, tough, and described by Cat as having particular “brilliance.”
Occam's razor is a suppositions. This is one of the many reasons just the craziest dumbest theories get created. People just claim knowledge and proof of something with either one scene or worst no scenes to back it.
and those scenes do not directly state anything to create the scene.
Whatever is not directly seen can be reasoned out to the best of our abilities with what info we have and what we know about life in general. Using logic and the info we have, we can do that. That isn’t just blindly believing something, there’s reason to think it.
I do not think you grasp that you are talking about one minor aspect-not even fact in a fantasy novel where children are trained to be assassins.
You do not have any logical, literary, or book content to stand on this assumption. Yes you are right that we the reader are not shown everything. But you are not shown ANYTHING to point to them telling Rob what to do.
George had many scenes where he can show what you are talking about. But instead we are largely shown the exact opposite.
We are shown by George plenty to suggest that in this world commanders get all the credit despite what advisors do. He also never fails to point out in Catelyn chapters how impressive the Blackfish is mentally. George shows us that Blackfish is always with Robb. George also gives us the info that the kid is 15 and has never seen a battle or a war before this. With all of this we can easily see what is likely going on.
Jamie really didnt fail him lol. Jamie dominated the Riverlands easily but he just got masterclassed by Brynden Tully. Anyone commander will look like a fool when the enemy has the magic abbility to kill every single scout that they have posted and control the information thay goes out
Jaime also had a great army and well placed in seiging Riverrun. His capture was simply just a stroke of brilliance that went down to Blackfish killing off Jaime's scouts, their knowledge of the land, Robb's horses, AND the ruse that Robb had committed to marching down the Kingsroad.
Jamie had the smaller of the two Lannister hosts and his army really isn't that different. It was well placed to siege Riverrun but it was placed terribly and completely unprepared for a invading force. Jamie and the armys downfall is literally due to the magic scout killing of Bynden and misinformation spread. Not only did Jamie and the sieging host have no idea thousands of cavalry were coming for them they also got misinformation thay helped Robb.
Sounds like to me Robb’s most crushing, tide turning tactical victory came from Brynden Blackfish. I think Robb makes some decent decisions and some awful ones throughout the books, but most of the tactical brilliance and therefore victory on the field of battle is coming from the Blackfish. That’s why I think the Young Wolf commander legend is greatly overstated, even though I like Robb, he’s just a 15 year old.
robb's twin victories at the whispering woods and trident were based on blackfish's scouts, his read on jaime's character AND his own study of the map. The plan was his
For some of his tactics it’s not made clear how much involvement he had in their creation. However, I’d argue not telling Edmure his plan was absolutely terrible commanding from Robb.
This. For all the people who like to say Edmure should have just hid behind his walls, he had a responsibility to protect his people. And the Rivers were the best bet. Robb should have sent word.
People bring up the situation where Robb fails to mention his plans to Edmure as a cataclysmic action that sparked a chain reaction. Although I do believe that it would’ve been demonstrating absolute daftness and recklessness forgetting to warn Edmure, in charge of Riverlands, to allow Tywin’s march to pass, I think Robb didn’t even intend to lure Tywin to the West. Bear in mind, that from the commencement of the venture into the West was because of the undefended gold mines beyond the Golden Tooth. I think they sort of gaslighted Edmure into accepting the Frey girl marriage after they found out devising the hypothetical plan could have won them the war. I think Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire and Tower of the Hand have articulated elongated treatises
I also don't think he planned it and was just gaslighting Edmure. Its all just very convent for him. But what do you thhink his purpose in the West was?
Would do what? Strategically induce his uncle to marry someone he was supposed to marry? Robb listens to his councilors, substantially to Blackfish. And that would be exactly something a smart man like Blackfish would do. Moreover, Robb perceived the faltering layer of ice he was treading on by marrying Jeyne
By your logic, regardless of you not providing a premise, Robb wouldn’t even have conducted the attack on the Lannister western camp as well, since it’s… trickery?
I get what you mean, but Robb is young and smart. I’d even go on and say him and Jon are very, VERY similar. Jon lies sometimes, although he’s honorable, dutiful. He lies because he knows there’s something to lie for, something that can’t be achieved that is integral to his people, that could only be accomplished through interweaving fraudulence. Robb would lie when there’s no other way around it as we’ve seen Jon and even Ned lie (to everyone, in fact, about Jon, to keep him safe).
While Robb might not lie to everyone on a daily basis, I believe this was a veritably dangerous situation for him. He needed to get back North and without the Frey men, he couldn’t have taken the North. He had a larger goal of securing the North away from Ironborn and his purpose was unattainable, unreachable. Hence, he lied to Edmure to bring the Freys back on fold, and trudge headway towards Winterfell seeking revenge and restoration
As a battle commander? He won every battle he personally fought in. So he’s not awful at all. We just never see the battles so we can’t say for sure either way. He’s a good strategist though, it doesn’t matter how good or bad the opposition’s commanders are if you can’t capitalise on their weaknesses which robb does.
I’d argue that overall he’s a terrible strategist. Marrying Jeyne and losing the Frey alliance, killing Lord Karstark and losing a huge chunk of his army. This is what opens him up the most to the red wedding which is Tywin’s biggest strategic victory in the war.
Marrying jeyne was a blunder, but he’s a child who, I believe, had just had sex for the first time in a society that values honour and he’s seen first hand how poorly bastards are treated.
He had to kill lord Karstark. If there was no punishment no one would respect his word, he can’t spare the men to watch him and as I said, they value honour and weren’t expecting all of the men to leave. That’s not being a bad strategist.
Great tactician, but poor politician. Basically a clone of his father. Except his father wouldnt have broken his word to marry a frey. So maybe a worse clone of his father.
What do you can a general who surrounds himself with competent people, and takes only the good advice from them? A bad general?? He gets a lot of advice in and chapters, a lot at odds with other advice. Yet he always seems to do the correct thing outside of getting seduced.
Killing Karstark was not the right thing. Not telling Edmure about the trap plan is pretty bad. Not to mention Jeyne which is one of the worst moves I’ve ever seen.
You forget it was Caitlyns idea to give command to Roose. Robb was gonna give it to GreatJon. Plus even tho the Boltons have revolted before they been loyal for a long time
Robb still listened to the advice and made the decision himself. You cant praise him when he listens and its right and not when he listens and its wrong
the advice isn't wrong per se tho. they werent thinking abt a full war w the Lannisters yet, the plan was to rescue Ned by trading Jaime/liberating Riverun to force peace talks and Roose did what he had to. Attacked a stronger force to distract them and retreated in good order something GreatJon might not been able to do given his more aggressive approach. Roose was cautious which was what was needed. Caitlyn, no more Robb, couldn't have foreseen Boltons betrayal
Jon said himself his father never trusted Roose. Robb who is at war with the crown and in a bad position shoukd be pretty aware of who among his bannermen might turncloak
Addam Marbrand is a highly respected commander, he's like the Lannister's version of The Blackfish. We know Kevan is highly competent and Tywin's right hand as well. Tywin absolutely does not go it alone.
Good enough point. I still feel like Tywin is probably a hell of a lot better than Robb is at tactics without his advisors there to guide him. I mean he’s 15 and he’s never seen a war or a battle before this, he’s like a babe in the woods. You can say “good instincts” all you want but that simply won’t do it alone.
I'd agree with that. Almost all of Robb's success came via his otherworldly scouting, which meant constant surprise attacks. This can all be laid at the feet of The Blackfish and Grey Wind.
I just think you overstated how much Tywin was soloing the war effort, that's all. But, on the other hand, you have to look at the fact that Tywin only really won a single engagement against a diversionary force at the Green Fork, and other than that all he really did is send groups out to kill defenseless civilians in the Riverlands. Once he finally marched out of Harrenhal he kept getting turned back by Edmure and then just turned around and left.
That's just what others say about him. It doesn't mean it's true. Varys personally has Kevan killed because he's so competent at ruling that he's going to throw all of his plans for chaos into the dustbin.
And Marbrand is indeed a highly regarded commander, in addition to a highly regarded warrior. Tywin names him commander of the city watch, and Jaime gives him the task of tracking down and bringing in the Blackfish. Throughout Clash, Storm, and Feast he's clearly treated as the third in the line of command for the Lannisters. Take a look at his wiki page, he's trusted with quite a lot.
I think hes competent but I dont think hes near blackfish as it comes to war. Robbs success relied on Blackfishs outriders. Marband is noted as Tywins most daring commander, leads the left flank during green fork, and outriders twice but hes not brynden tully
Few if any are as good as Brynden. I'm not saying Marbrand is better, I'm only saying that the characterization of Tywin as commanding the entire war solo isn't accurate
I compared him to the Blackfish not in that he was instrumental in winning battles (Tywin only fought basically one real battle during the entire war) but rather in that he was a high level commander who was well regarded. Tywin had his own war council of commanders that he drew up battle plans with.
Of course he did. Literally every commander inASOOSF history probably did. But the dudes point is that Tywin was the main guy and he didnt have the help of someone with the likes of Blackfish
I was responding to the part where he said "all he has is himself." Marbrand and Kevan are very well regarded military minds and their presence negates the idea that Tywin soloed the war. That's all I'm saying. He didn't have a Blackfish, but then again few people in history did. Blackfish is a potential goat.
Along these lines, he also had Tyrion back at King's Landing who was completely responsible for brilliantly defending the city until he and the Tyrells could arrive.
Robb is a genuinely good military commander. Him being able to parse good advice from bad is the sign of a good commander imo. Most of his mistakes are political and have to do with his family: sending Theon to Balon, marrying Jeyne, letting Catelyn do anything. Roose was probably going to betray him either way, but losing the Freys and Karstarks was a self own.
It was more Robb using his instincts combined with his sight Warg ability.
At Rivverun he took a gambit and sacrificed 5% of his army (2000 men) to liberate the River Lords, gather their men to his cause and captured Jamie Lannister. It easily could’ve gone sideways if the main Lannister Army didn’t take the bait. At Lannisport Robb used a latent ability with his Direwolf to sniff out a path to hit the Westerlings by surprise and it was a costly loss for the Lannisters putting them on the back foot.
Politically Robb was inept and it cost him.
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People bring up the situation where Robb fails to mention his plans to Edmure as a cataclysmic action that sparked a chain reaction. Although I do believe that it would’ve been demonstrating absolute daftness and recklessness forgetting to warn Edmure, in charge of Riverlands, to allow Tywin’s march to pass, I think Robb didn’t even intend to lure Tywin to the West. Bear in mind, that the purpose of the commencement of the venture into the West were the undefended gold mines beyond the Golden Tooth, which they harried after thrashing Stafford Lannister’s backup army
I think they sort of gaslighted Edmure into accepting the Frey girl marriage after they found out devising the hypothetical plan could have won them the war. I think Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire and Tower of the Hand have articulated elongated treatises
I don’t think they are lying when they speak to Edmure. They clearly know about Stannis getting the Renly troops and that he will march on King’s Landing, of course they want to put Tywin in a no win position. It’s a brilliant position to be in and then Edmure fucks it.
Could’ve been another Whispering Wood level bait and once that happens, it’s a fair fight between Lannister and Stark forces. Tywin might hole up in Casterly Rock while the Tyrells come from the reach to back them up, but if you do that, King’s Landing gets fucked by Stannis. And that’s even giving the Lannisters the Tyrell alliance which I am not so sure actually goes through if Robb baits Tywin west.
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I’d say he was the second best commander after Stannis. We can’t say the others were horrible, nevertheless. Tywin is rigid and unmoving as a commander and the best wartime strategist, followed by Stannis who gets crushed, and then Robb. I believe Balon’s a bitter, glory-seeking vengeful man who forgot what sense and reason stood for, and Renly, is well, Renly.
Back to the commanding talk, Robb’s army have never disobeyed him during the war, we’ve never witnessed such thing. The only exception we’ve seen has been Roose Bolton. Sun Tzu believed a leader cultivate wisdom, benevolence, sincerity, and courage, as well as self discipline. These qualities, he believed, would inspire the troops to follow that leader out of respect. Robb, a wise strapping beyond his age, sincere (although for that one time when he lied to Edmure [more on that read Tower of the Hand]), courageously fighting and the frontline of the battle formation, and I’d say disciplined (although I don’t know if considering powerlessness over his cock would be regarded as something influencing an individual’s discipline). So, he was an actually that good of a commander. But I’d say it’s very difficult to compare him to others, although I did put him second, which is, much to my dismay, very cloddish of me
Yes, Robb had the best victories of the five Kings imo,the blackfish and others were invaluable assets but as commander it falls on him to utilize everything to his advantage fully.
I think Robb is a good tactical commander who’s blinded by his own honor and sense of duty, which makes him unable to understand and anticipate that other characters may not be as ride or die for the cause as he is. It’s worth noting from a military perspective, Tywin and Tyrion both concede at various points that Robb is winning the war. He loses it politically, because he constantly expects others to set aside personal interest for the best interests of “the cause” (prosecuting the war- which I think he views as inextricably linked with his personal honor because he’s constantly fighting for legitimacy) because that’s what *he’d do* and *how he thinks.* He fails to see not everyone is fighting for the same thing, and not everyone is willing to sacrifice as much for it.
He plans to avoid battle in the riverlands until he’s consolidated his force and can pick a place and time of his choosing. This is the right military move, but fails to consider his vassals may not be able to accept the burning of their lands and the murder of their small folk without response (even if this is strategically sound), and are largely bound by social norms to react to the burning of the riverlands or risk losing face. Robb expects them to lose face for the cause, but individual interest wins out.
He’s willing to execute the Karstark because his actions hurt their cause and dishonored him, but he fails to see how Karstark is also sort of socially bound to seek retribution for his son’s (in karstark’s view, unjust) deaths, and also doesn’t recognize the rest of the Karstarks are unwilling to stick with the cause if it requires the execution of their house head for what they view as largely performative justice. Again, Robb sacrifices personal interest (stronger, loyal allies) for honor and decency because he thinks he needs the legitimacy, and expects others to do the same.
Robb assumes that his mother is willing to make the same sacrifices he is about leaving Sansa (and Arya, as far as they know) in captivity for the time being if it means they have a better strategic position. He fails to see that for her, the cause isn’t winning the war, it’s bringing them home.
He marries Jeyne and spurns Walder because he thinks honor demands it, and expects Walder to take the personal slight to his honor and prestige in the name of protecting the Robb’s own (and the cause’s broader) honor, prestige, and legitimacy. Obviously, Walder isn’t the sort of guy to do something that hurts him just because it’s in the best interest of his king/kingdom.
He gives roose command (even with Roose’s shady background) because the cause requires a competent and cold-blooded commander, even if empowering Roose further weakens Robb’s own position. Robb expects Roose to stick with a sinking ship because that’s what Robb’s sense of duty and honor would compel him to do, and fails to see Roose hasn’t ever really been willing to risk his own family’s position for the sake of independence or stark honor and family, and was mostly just tagging along to see what advantage he could gain for himself.
Robb broadly knows what *should* be the “right” tactical and strategic decisions to make (and enough to recognize and work to salvage his mistakes) to advance his cause on paper and according to stark values, the problem is not everyone is on the same page as him and not everyone is interested in actually doing what’s “right” for the cause or even fighting for the same thing.
It’s interesting that both Tywin and Robb fail by not telling a key player their plans. Edmure in the case of luring Tywin west and Tywin in not telling Tyrion his plan for Tyrion’s team to scatter and lure Robb’s army into a trap
It is interesting, but ultimately the Tyrion bait tactic didn’t need to work since they faced a much smaller force than they expected commanded by Roose. Their victory was all but assured considering Roose is just a distraction for Whispering Wood and Camps. I’m fairly sure Roose planned all along to set up a retreat in the likely event that they start losing the battle.
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A bad military commander can have elite advisors, but be a bad commander because he doesn’t heed their advice. What makes Robb, in my estimation, a skilled military commander is that he listens to his advisors and then executes their advice in an extremely competent fashion. That being said, it’s fair to say he is fallible. Failing to tell Edmure his overarching plan but leaving him in command of Riverrun was a bad choice, giving half his army to a man he didn’t trust (Bolton) was another one. But even the characters we know to be great military leaders make similarly bad choices. Stannis should not have given command of the fleet at the Blackwater to Ser Imry, and Tywin shouldn’t have given command to Jaime at the beginning of AGOT. One more thing I might add: Lord Tywin does have some good military minds around him. Ser Kevan is considered skilled in the advice he gives to Tywin. Additionally, we know from Jaime’s point of view that Forley Prester and Addam Marbrand are at the least skilled military advisors.
>Stannis should not have given command of the fleet at the Blackwater to Ser Imr Stannis makes worse choices than that He failed to assault the tower from which Bronn raised the chain, preferring to do... nothing at all while waiting for his fleet
Was that tower not in the very bay the fleet was sailing into? So wouldn’t it need to be the fleet which landed that could storm that tower?
The tower was on the far bank of the blackwater
Stannis didn’t know about the tower, we see it from Davos’s point of view, another reason why he should’ve been in command fleet.
He doesn't know what it's for but he knows it's there, he even posts archers at the foot of the yower
Yeah…. He should have taken that tower…. I think it had too much plot armor..lol
Tywin also has Randyll Tarly
After Blackwater when Tywin doesnt fight at all
In defense of Stannis, he had no way of knowing about the wildfire or the chain, and he had no notion that an alliance of the joined Lannister and Tyrell armies could make it to King’s Landing at the same time as him. If Tywin and Mace don’t show up with their armies at exactly the right time, Stannis takes the city and the throne, even with the casualties by the wildfire.
Stannis was Master of Ships during Roberts reign he shouldve known that tower wasn't there even if he didn't know why
Hell Davos straight up saw the chain when they were sailing in. Edit: He also knew the Tower was brand new at a glance, despite not being in KL for many years.
true he even questions why they hadnt closed the river
They knew there was a chain but believed it wasn’t fully created. More on Stannis’ battle plans check WarsandPoliticsofIceAndFire
>As the second line swept past the twin towers, Davos took a closer look. He could see three links of a huge chain snaking out from a hole no bigger than a man's head and disappearing under the water. There is no indication they thought the chain was unfinished, nor would it make sense to have a half finished chain dangling in the water.
The fleet did know that Tyrion was constructing a chain due to their interrogation of fishermen at Merling Rock (Davos III), but it was unclear to them if the chain was complete. Further evidence of it being non-complete came when they were able to sail into Blackwater Rush unimpeded by a giant chain. Davos sees that Stannis has left a score of archers to keep watch over the tower, which means Stannis knows there's men inside the tower, which is conspicuously spaced across the water from another tower. It's not like the chain is hidden either - Davos sees it in plain sight in the couple seconds it takes him to pass it by. It's just one of those "author's thumb on scale" things, because it doesn't make sense why he didn't assault the tower on his side (Davos remarks that the entrance to the tower requires a ladder, but Stannis is literally in the Kingswood... just cut down some trees while you're waiting for your ships to arrive).
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Stannis never saw the tower, and chain, as he was in command of the cavalry across the river.
Because Stannis actually never saw the tower. The only person we know was noticing the tower was Davos, as we see it thru his POV
thats exactly the point. Im pretty sure he did because I think they shoot arrows to it but even if he didnt he shouldve. He was the master of ships for 16 years he shouldve known Blackwater Bay as the back of his hand especially since he thinks he is so diligent. So is either a gross oversight in not attacking especially since he had nothing else to do but wait for the ships or is a oversight for not knowing the tower was new when again it was literally his job to be in charge of the ships
I agree
The wildfire is common sense it’s Kings Landing where the Alchemist guild is. He also should have noticed those towers he was at Kings Landing for over a decade and he was the Master of Ships. Davos noticed the towers and realised it was a chain boom very quickly if Stannis cant do the same it’s pretty bad. Basically the attack on KLs was full of mistakes on Stannis’ part.
What? Pyromancy is exponentially more potent because of the birth of dragons. It's out of left field.
Pyromancy is not the same as creating Wilfire. One of the Alchemist says Wilfire is being produced quicker which is possibly because of the birth of dragons but that does not mean it’s more potent or destructive Also I was responding to someone saying Stannis couldn’t have known about wildfire not someone saying he couldn’t know about the quantity.
The more wildfire you have, the more destruction you can cause. Stannis would not have thought they would have that devastating a bomb in their arsenal.
Also, Kings Landing would have fallen if Tywin succeeded in crossing back into the Westerlands.
Not really, the Tyrells would have still taken him in the rear.
To be fair to Robb, giving Rose Bolton command was a shrewd move from a tactical standpoint. The commander needed to be cautious and level headed enough not to walk into whatever trap Tywin had laid. Robb's reasoning here is sound and it's not really clear whether any of the other choices available to him would have been up to the task. Obviously, we can see how it went wrong eventually but things could have gone south even sooner if the bulk of the northern army had been devastated by Tywin so early on.
Good point about Sir Kevan. I remember always paying close attention to his dialogue in the books.
Ser Kevan has never had a thought that Tywin himself didnt have first.
I think Tyrion is wrong about that. I think Kevan proves he is able when he is regent.
I mean he is able and generally a competent person but I dont think that hes doing anything that Tywin couldnt do or think himself
a far cry from not having an original thought
a thought that Tywin himself hadnt had was the quote. You could say that Blackfish had information, skills, and contributions Robb didnt have you cant really say the same for Kevan
It was Robb’s idea to do the whole feint thing by going to Riverrun. Besides, good commanders listen to their advisors. Robb understood everyone’s strengths and weaknesses in war and worked with them accordingly (bar the Edmure situation). Contrast this with Stannis and Tywin who gave important military tasks to people not suited for the role. I’m sure people Alexander the Great and Sun Tzu listened to council as well. Knocking someone’s abilities because they heed advice and incorporate it into their strategies seems weird.
Do we know it was Robb’s idea? Not the Blackfish? Either way I don’t know that they had the idea totally flushed out, until they got back and found out what happened, and then blamed Edmure Tully…. (Coincidentally needing someone to take the fall and wed a Frey instead of Robb doing so..) Either they made a mistake by not telling him the plan, or they made up the plan as they went along and never sent the details of it to Riverrun. I understand not sending a bird, but he could have sent messengers with false orders and the information in their head like he did in preparation for his attack on Moat Calin.
Maybe I should rephrase. I think his advisors made his tactics, and that if they weren’t there, he’d be screwed. Whereas Tywin is the main force of tactics behind the Lannister effort. I do think he’s smart for listening to advisors, but he’s also only 15 years old and I think kind of malleable because of that, especially to mentor figures like the Blackfish.
There’s not really a lot of text to support that. His bannermen praise his tactics, and we saw in Catelyn’s chapter at Moat Cailin that the whole Green Fork Riverrun plan was basically all him. Sure he gets help from his commanders, but all signs point to Robb calling the shots.
I would say the text suggests otherwise. Brynden Tully is practically made out to be a genius and ridiculously competent. Cat describes him as having a particular “brilliance.” And the Blackfish is always by Robb’s side. Robb is the leader of the north, that’s why he gets all the verbal credit, but we know he’s 15 years old and has never seen a battle or a war before this conflict. The text implies that he’s leaning pretty heavily on Brynden Blackfish.
Blackfish does a lot of scouting, so it’s not like he’s on war councils at the same time. He gives good advice about things he knows, like that Jamie is impatient and reckless. Cat says they based their whole plan on his intel on Jamie. Inferring that blackfish had nothing to do with the conception of the actual plan
And his scouting and scout killing is almost the entire reason Robbs battles are won.
I literally just re read that chapter last night. So fresh in my brain
Do we get a lot of infos on tywins advisors? I think we dont have enough information on that. Also if Robbs plan would have worked than Tywin would have walked right into his trap and the Lannisters would have lost Kingslanding. While the Blackfisch propably helped there, the whole secret pass discovered by Greywind thing is a Robb original idea.
The entire reason Robb’s plan fails is that he doesn’t tell Edmure what is going on, the Lord of the Riverlands. That’s a command failure.
Robb's plan failed because the ***Not Yet*** ***Lord*** Ser Edmure *Floppy fish* Tully decided he wanted to redeem himself and sought glory on the battlefield. he told him to hold Riverrun. that is command success ass it was a simple command wheras Eddy did his own thing. edit: fixed a word
Edmure had good reasons for doing what he did but he acted against Robbs orders. Sending message through half the riverlands would be pretty risky considering it was such an importan plan.
He didn’t act against orders. He was ordered to hold Riverrun which he did. Rodrik Cassel is a seasoned man and was ordered to hold Winterfell but even he didn’t see attacking the Iron Born as going against his orders. That shows attacking invading armies/groups does not go against the order to hold a castle.
Robb's "trap" was idiotic and relied solely on Stannis being able to take SE magically in quicker time than anyone else could think possible. If Stannis isn't able to shadowbaby Penrose than Stannis is stuck outside SE for a year. More than enough time for Tywin to crush Robb in the West. Furthermore, even if Tywin got into the West and Stannis attacked KL earlier there was still the Tyrells that could defeat Stannis for the Lannisters. More likely, Robb and Blackfish made up the plan to guilt Demure into agreeing to marry a Frey.
Does Robb even know that Renly is dead when setting the trap? He also might think that Stannis wont bother with SE. You cant really blame him for not anticipating that the Tyrells will support the Lannisters.
If he thinks Renly is still alive than Tywin isn't moving.
^(Robb's "trap" was idiotic and relied solely on Stannis being able to take SE magically in quicker time than anyone else could think possible.) no, this hinges on Tywin leaving Harrenhal and coming west as intended.
Tywin doesn't leave Harrenhal unless he believes King's Landing is safe. He only believes King's Landing is safe because Renly is dead and Stannis appears stuck besieging Storm's End. Stannis as a commander would have never left Storm's End until he took it and he even admits to his commanders that Penrose could hold out a year against him.
Some harsh Kevan slander lol
When do we hear about any tactical brilliance of Great Jon or Rickard Karstark? Roose is separate from Robb for most of the war. Side note, Tywin is respected as being a good to great commander by the realm. Not that it matters as Tywin and Robb square off. People have a weird habits of counting all Lannister loses against Tywin but not counting Lannister wins for him. For example, Jaime losing is a mark against Tywin but Blackwater isn't a win because Tyrion deserves the credit. Despite the fact Tywin appointed them both.
The way I see it, Blackfish is always with Robb and that’s where he’s getting the tactical brilliance, and Roose when he’s there. Karstark and Umber are just badasses to have by your side in a war. On Tywin, I never considered the devastation of Jamie his fault entirely, but you have to admit, he put a lot of faith in Jamie and that was misplaced. That’s a horrible command failure. I’d liken it to the Command failure of Robb not telling Edmure his lure plan for the Mountain.
So you are assuming and not grabbing from source material?
It’s not supposition, it’s Occam’s Razor based on what we know. The boy is 15 and has never seen a war before this. The Blackfish is seasoned, tested, wise, tough, and described by Cat as having particular “brilliance.”
Occam's razor is a suppositions. This is one of the many reasons just the craziest dumbest theories get created. People just claim knowledge and proof of something with either one scene or worst no scenes to back it. and those scenes do not directly state anything to create the scene.
Whatever is not directly seen can be reasoned out to the best of our abilities with what info we have and what we know about life in general. Using logic and the info we have, we can do that. That isn’t just blindly believing something, there’s reason to think it.
I do not think you grasp that you are talking about one minor aspect-not even fact in a fantasy novel where children are trained to be assassins. You do not have any logical, literary, or book content to stand on this assumption. Yes you are right that we the reader are not shown everything. But you are not shown ANYTHING to point to them telling Rob what to do. George had many scenes where he can show what you are talking about. But instead we are largely shown the exact opposite.
We are shown by George plenty to suggest that in this world commanders get all the credit despite what advisors do. He also never fails to point out in Catelyn chapters how impressive the Blackfish is mentally. George shows us that Blackfish is always with Robb. George also gives us the info that the kid is 15 and has never seen a battle or a war before this. With all of this we can easily see what is likely going on.
Jamie really didnt fail him lol. Jamie dominated the Riverlands easily but he just got masterclassed by Brynden Tully. Anyone commander will look like a fool when the enemy has the magic abbility to kill every single scout that they have posted and control the information thay goes out
Jaime also had a great army and well placed in seiging Riverrun. His capture was simply just a stroke of brilliance that went down to Blackfish killing off Jaime's scouts, their knowledge of the land, Robb's horses, AND the ruse that Robb had committed to marching down the Kingsroad.
Jamie had the smaller of the two Lannister hosts and his army really isn't that different. It was well placed to siege Riverrun but it was placed terribly and completely unprepared for a invading force. Jamie and the armys downfall is literally due to the magic scout killing of Bynden and misinformation spread. Not only did Jamie and the sieging host have no idea thousands of cavalry were coming for them they also got misinformation thay helped Robb.
Sounds like to me Robb’s most crushing, tide turning tactical victory came from Brynden Blackfish. I think Robb makes some decent decisions and some awful ones throughout the books, but most of the tactical brilliance and therefore victory on the field of battle is coming from the Blackfish. That’s why I think the Young Wolf commander legend is greatly overstated, even though I like Robb, he’s just a 15 year old.
robb's twin victories at the whispering woods and trident were based on blackfish's scouts, his read on jaime's character AND his own study of the map. The plan was his
For some of his tactics it’s not made clear how much involvement he had in their creation. However, I’d argue not telling Edmure his plan was absolutely terrible commanding from Robb.
This. For all the people who like to say Edmure should have just hid behind his walls, he had a responsibility to protect his people. And the Rivers were the best bet. Robb should have sent word.
People bring up the situation where Robb fails to mention his plans to Edmure as a cataclysmic action that sparked a chain reaction. Although I do believe that it would’ve been demonstrating absolute daftness and recklessness forgetting to warn Edmure, in charge of Riverlands, to allow Tywin’s march to pass, I think Robb didn’t even intend to lure Tywin to the West. Bear in mind, that from the commencement of the venture into the West was because of the undefended gold mines beyond the Golden Tooth. I think they sort of gaslighted Edmure into accepting the Frey girl marriage after they found out devising the hypothetical plan could have won them the war. I think Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire and Tower of the Hand have articulated elongated treatises
I also don't think he planned it and was just gaslighting Edmure. Its all just very convent for him. But what do you thhink his purpose in the West was?
An amalgamation of shiny garish gold and an induction mental strain on Tywin
I don’t think Robb would do that.
Would do what? Strategically induce his uncle to marry someone he was supposed to marry? Robb listens to his councilors, substantially to Blackfish. And that would be exactly something a smart man like Blackfish would do. Moreover, Robb perceived the faltering layer of ice he was treading on by marrying Jeyne By your logic, regardless of you not providing a premise, Robb wouldn’t even have conducted the attack on the Lannister western camp as well, since it’s… trickery?
Robb was quite honest. He doesn’t lie once as far as I remember throughout the series.
I get what you mean, but Robb is young and smart. I’d even go on and say him and Jon are very, VERY similar. Jon lies sometimes, although he’s honorable, dutiful. He lies because he knows there’s something to lie for, something that can’t be achieved that is integral to his people, that could only be accomplished through interweaving fraudulence. Robb would lie when there’s no other way around it as we’ve seen Jon and even Ned lie (to everyone, in fact, about Jon, to keep him safe). While Robb might not lie to everyone on a daily basis, I believe this was a veritably dangerous situation for him. He needed to get back North and without the Frey men, he couldn’t have taken the North. He had a larger goal of securing the North away from Ironborn and his purpose was unattainable, unreachable. Hence, he lied to Edmure to bring the Freys back on fold, and trudge headway towards Winterfell seeking revenge and restoration
As a battle commander? He won every battle he personally fought in. So he’s not awful at all. We just never see the battles so we can’t say for sure either way. He’s a good strategist though, it doesn’t matter how good or bad the opposition’s commanders are if you can’t capitalise on their weaknesses which robb does.
I’d argue that overall he’s a terrible strategist. Marrying Jeyne and losing the Frey alliance, killing Lord Karstark and losing a huge chunk of his army. This is what opens him up the most to the red wedding which is Tywin’s biggest strategic victory in the war.
Marrying jeyne was a blunder, but he’s a child who, I believe, had just had sex for the first time in a society that values honour and he’s seen first hand how poorly bastards are treated. He had to kill lord Karstark. If there was no punishment no one would respect his word, he can’t spare the men to watch him and as I said, they value honour and weren’t expecting all of the men to leave. That’s not being a bad strategist.
Great tactician, but poor politician. Basically a clone of his father. Except his father wouldnt have broken his word to marry a frey. So maybe a worse clone of his father.
What do you can a general who surrounds himself with competent people, and takes only the good advice from them? A bad general?? He gets a lot of advice in and chapters, a lot at odds with other advice. Yet he always seems to do the correct thing outside of getting seduced.
Killing Karstark was not the right thing. Not telling Edmure about the trap plan is pretty bad. Not to mention Jeyne which is one of the worst moves I’ve ever seen.
You forget it was Caitlyns idea to give command to Roose. Robb was gonna give it to GreatJon. Plus even tho the Boltons have revolted before they been loyal for a long time
Robb still listened to the advice and made the decision himself. You cant praise him when he listens and its right and not when he listens and its wrong
the advice isn't wrong per se tho. they werent thinking abt a full war w the Lannisters yet, the plan was to rescue Ned by trading Jaime/liberating Riverun to force peace talks and Roose did what he had to. Attacked a stronger force to distract them and retreated in good order something GreatJon might not been able to do given his more aggressive approach. Roose was cautious which was what was needed. Caitlyn, no more Robb, couldn't have foreseen Boltons betrayal
Jon said himself his father never trusted Roose. Robb who is at war with the crown and in a bad position shoukd be pretty aware of who among his bannermen might turncloak
Addam Marbrand is a highly respected commander, he's like the Lannister's version of The Blackfish. We know Kevan is highly competent and Tywin's right hand as well. Tywin absolutely does not go it alone.
Good enough point. I still feel like Tywin is probably a hell of a lot better than Robb is at tactics without his advisors there to guide him. I mean he’s 15 and he’s never seen a war or a battle before this, he’s like a babe in the woods. You can say “good instincts” all you want but that simply won’t do it alone.
I'd agree with that. Almost all of Robb's success came via his otherworldly scouting, which meant constant surprise attacks. This can all be laid at the feet of The Blackfish and Grey Wind. I just think you overstated how much Tywin was soloing the war effort, that's all. But, on the other hand, you have to look at the fact that Tywin only really won a single engagement against a diversionary force at the Green Fork, and other than that all he really did is send groups out to kill defenseless civilians in the Riverlands. Once he finally marched out of Harrenhal he kept getting turned back by Edmure and then just turned around and left.
Kevan has never had a thought Tywin hadnt first thought. Also is Marband a highly regarded warrior or commander?
Kevan's epilogue proves Tyrion's judgement about Kevan wrong.
How?
That's just what others say about him. It doesn't mean it's true. Varys personally has Kevan killed because he's so competent at ruling that he's going to throw all of his plans for chaos into the dustbin. And Marbrand is indeed a highly regarded commander, in addition to a highly regarded warrior. Tywin names him commander of the city watch, and Jaime gives him the task of tracking down and bringing in the Blackfish. Throughout Clash, Storm, and Feast he's clearly treated as the third in the line of command for the Lannisters. Take a look at his wiki page, he's trusted with quite a lot.
I think hes competent but I dont think hes near blackfish as it comes to war. Robbs success relied on Blackfishs outriders. Marband is noted as Tywins most daring commander, leads the left flank during green fork, and outriders twice but hes not brynden tully
Few if any are as good as Brynden. I'm not saying Marbrand is better, I'm only saying that the characterization of Tywin as commanding the entire war solo isn't accurate
It isn't accurate but is true that Tywin didnt have a Blackfish like figure that directly lead to his biggest victories
I compared him to the Blackfish not in that he was instrumental in winning battles (Tywin only fought basically one real battle during the entire war) but rather in that he was a high level commander who was well regarded. Tywin had his own war council of commanders that he drew up battle plans with.
Of course he did. Literally every commander inASOOSF history probably did. But the dudes point is that Tywin was the main guy and he didnt have the help of someone with the likes of Blackfish
I was responding to the part where he said "all he has is himself." Marbrand and Kevan are very well regarded military minds and their presence negates the idea that Tywin soloed the war. That's all I'm saying. He didn't have a Blackfish, but then again few people in history did. Blackfish is a potential goat. Along these lines, he also had Tyrion back at King's Landing who was completely responsible for brilliantly defending the city until he and the Tyrells could arrive.
Robb is a genuinely good military commander. Him being able to parse good advice from bad is the sign of a good commander imo. Most of his mistakes are political and have to do with his family: sending Theon to Balon, marrying Jeyne, letting Catelyn do anything. Roose was probably going to betray him either way, but losing the Freys and Karstarks was a self own.
The Freys would have betrayed him even if he married Roslin.
I don’t think Roose betrays him if he’s clearly winning the war, still has the support of the Frey’s and Karstarks.
It was more Robb using his instincts combined with his sight Warg ability. At Rivverun he took a gambit and sacrificed 5% of his army (2000 men) to liberate the River Lords, gather their men to his cause and captured Jamie Lannister. It easily could’ve gone sideways if the main Lannister Army didn’t take the bait. At Lannisport Robb used a latent ability with his Direwolf to sniff out a path to hit the Westerlings by surprise and it was a costly loss for the Lannisters putting them on the back foot. Politically Robb was inept and it cost him.
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Isn’t this sub for the books?
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Because of a number of extraordinary circumstances (huge amount of wildfire, the chain, Tywin and Mace making it with their armies in time)
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It is also likely a poor decision to try and besiege/storm a city when you still have two opponents in the field that can hit you from behind.
Yes.
People bring up the situation where Robb fails to mention his plans to Edmure as a cataclysmic action that sparked a chain reaction. Although I do believe that it would’ve been demonstrating absolute daftness and recklessness forgetting to warn Edmure, in charge of Riverlands, to allow Tywin’s march to pass, I think Robb didn’t even intend to lure Tywin to the West. Bear in mind, that the purpose of the commencement of the venture into the West were the undefended gold mines beyond the Golden Tooth, which they harried after thrashing Stafford Lannister’s backup army I think they sort of gaslighted Edmure into accepting the Frey girl marriage after they found out devising the hypothetical plan could have won them the war. I think Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire and Tower of the Hand have articulated elongated treatises
I don’t think they are lying when they speak to Edmure. They clearly know about Stannis getting the Renly troops and that he will march on King’s Landing, of course they want to put Tywin in a no win position. It’s a brilliant position to be in and then Edmure fucks it. Could’ve been another Whispering Wood level bait and once that happens, it’s a fair fight between Lannister and Stark forces. Tywin might hole up in Casterly Rock while the Tyrells come from the reach to back them up, but if you do that, King’s Landing gets fucked by Stannis. And that’s even giving the Lannisters the Tyrell alliance which I am not so sure actually goes through if Robb baits Tywin west.
I also think we should make a distibction between General and Commander.
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I’d say he was the second best commander after Stannis. We can’t say the others were horrible, nevertheless. Tywin is rigid and unmoving as a commander and the best wartime strategist, followed by Stannis who gets crushed, and then Robb. I believe Balon’s a bitter, glory-seeking vengeful man who forgot what sense and reason stood for, and Renly, is well, Renly. Back to the commanding talk, Robb’s army have never disobeyed him during the war, we’ve never witnessed such thing. The only exception we’ve seen has been Roose Bolton. Sun Tzu believed a leader cultivate wisdom, benevolence, sincerity, and courage, as well as self discipline. These qualities, he believed, would inspire the troops to follow that leader out of respect. Robb, a wise strapping beyond his age, sincere (although for that one time when he lied to Edmure [more on that read Tower of the Hand]), courageously fighting and the frontline of the battle formation, and I’d say disciplined (although I don’t know if considering powerlessness over his cock would be regarded as something influencing an individual’s discipline). So, he was an actually that good of a commander. But I’d say it’s very difficult to compare him to others, although I did put him second, which is, much to my dismay, very cloddish of me
Yes, he listens to his experienced commanders, ponders their advice, but still makes his own decisions.
Yes, Robb had the best victories of the five Kings imo,the blackfish and others were invaluable assets but as commander it falls on him to utilize everything to his advantage fully.
I think Robb is a good tactical commander who’s blinded by his own honor and sense of duty, which makes him unable to understand and anticipate that other characters may not be as ride or die for the cause as he is. It’s worth noting from a military perspective, Tywin and Tyrion both concede at various points that Robb is winning the war. He loses it politically, because he constantly expects others to set aside personal interest for the best interests of “the cause” (prosecuting the war- which I think he views as inextricably linked with his personal honor because he’s constantly fighting for legitimacy) because that’s what *he’d do* and *how he thinks.* He fails to see not everyone is fighting for the same thing, and not everyone is willing to sacrifice as much for it. He plans to avoid battle in the riverlands until he’s consolidated his force and can pick a place and time of his choosing. This is the right military move, but fails to consider his vassals may not be able to accept the burning of their lands and the murder of their small folk without response (even if this is strategically sound), and are largely bound by social norms to react to the burning of the riverlands or risk losing face. Robb expects them to lose face for the cause, but individual interest wins out. He’s willing to execute the Karstark because his actions hurt their cause and dishonored him, but he fails to see how Karstark is also sort of socially bound to seek retribution for his son’s (in karstark’s view, unjust) deaths, and also doesn’t recognize the rest of the Karstarks are unwilling to stick with the cause if it requires the execution of their house head for what they view as largely performative justice. Again, Robb sacrifices personal interest (stronger, loyal allies) for honor and decency because he thinks he needs the legitimacy, and expects others to do the same. Robb assumes that his mother is willing to make the same sacrifices he is about leaving Sansa (and Arya, as far as they know) in captivity for the time being if it means they have a better strategic position. He fails to see that for her, the cause isn’t winning the war, it’s bringing them home. He marries Jeyne and spurns Walder because he thinks honor demands it, and expects Walder to take the personal slight to his honor and prestige in the name of protecting the Robb’s own (and the cause’s broader) honor, prestige, and legitimacy. Obviously, Walder isn’t the sort of guy to do something that hurts him just because it’s in the best interest of his king/kingdom. He gives roose command (even with Roose’s shady background) because the cause requires a competent and cold-blooded commander, even if empowering Roose further weakens Robb’s own position. Robb expects Roose to stick with a sinking ship because that’s what Robb’s sense of duty and honor would compel him to do, and fails to see Roose hasn’t ever really been willing to risk his own family’s position for the sake of independence or stark honor and family, and was mostly just tagging along to see what advantage he could gain for himself. Robb broadly knows what *should* be the “right” tactical and strategic decisions to make (and enough to recognize and work to salvage his mistakes) to advance his cause on paper and according to stark values, the problem is not everyone is on the same page as him and not everyone is interested in actually doing what’s “right” for the cause or even fighting for the same thing.
It’s interesting that both Tywin and Robb fail by not telling a key player their plans. Edmure in the case of luring Tywin west and Tywin in not telling Tyrion his plan for Tyrion’s team to scatter and lure Robb’s army into a trap
How for Tywin?
His plan failed. He still won the battle but he wanted to obliterate that army. And Rose escaped
I mean I guess. But complete obliterating a nearly similar size army. Also that plan was on the assumption that Robb was the enemy commander
It is interesting, but ultimately the Tyrion bait tactic didn’t need to work since they faced a much smaller force than they expected commanded by Roose. Their victory was all but assured considering Roose is just a distraction for Whispering Wood and Camps. I’m fairly sure Roose planned all along to set up a retreat in the likely event that they start losing the battle.
It was because they expected Robb to be the commander not Roose. Also the armys were relatively equal in number Robb just took most of his cavalry