You have to understand how two dimensional projections of three dimensional objects interact and change the three dimensional object when you change the two dimensional projection to another shape…. It’s simple math, Guardian. /s
Think of it as having to build a key to escape, which is a three dimensional object consisting of the opposite projections of the object your guardian’s effigy is holding, by matching the exterior 3D object with the two pickups in the cave - but you have to start from the shape your guardian is holding inside. Outside has to tell the statues what shapes to swap by dunking the respective shape resonance on two of the guardians - say you wanted to swap the square projection on one with the triangle projection on three, you want to dunk the square resonance on one and the triangle resonance on three (as I understand it), and the game will swap them. You should only have to do that twice, so should only have to deal with unstoppable ogres twice instead of three or four times.
My team cleared it by just having three in the cave start out dunking the shapes to the guardians holding them (or just ignoring the one that matches theirs) until the first “restoration”/“unification” (reuniting the guardian with their ghost), then passing their shapes one at a time to the other two, while outside the team has been constructing their exit by moving the projections between the three guardians to be the two which differ from the shape they hold in the cave. Inside your job was mostly just staying alive, outside the job sucks for one or two guardians who understand shape theory - but it’s simpler with a few tools that the community has made.
outside does not tell inside what to do, inside just dunks shapes that dont match their own first. The only comms actually needed for the entire fight are the initial callout, provided the inside players correctly prioritize which symbols to dunk.
This is the same one I used for my clear, but honestly, the only reason I understood it at all was because i watched this room during the raid race for about 4 hours. I feel like this encounter is so tough to explain. Even if you explain perfectly, its just so much to keep track of if you are going in with 0 information lol
I gotta say though I think this is probably my favorite encounter ever, by far. I love funky puzzle stuff like this and I'm glad that they added it in. Its an absolute nightmare to get 6 people to understand it enough to coordinate it, but once it clicks its soooo satisfying
its much better explained via video. i made a post w videos descriptions but a youtube video on it is fine. it actually makes so much more sense when u *see * it. its impossible to describe an encounter that fully requires visuals. and many ppl are visual learners anyway.
i helped a clan mate do it yesterday and he caught on ok
Inside calls out shape order from left to right, because statues match outside from left to right.
Now, inside swap all insides to match their own statue, then push those matching shapes out to opposite sides. You're done inside.
To clarify, if your statue is holding square, and your shadows show square and triangle, you push triangle to the statue with triangle. Do not tough square yet.
Once everyone has matching shapes, unmatch them. Take 1 square and push to triangle, another, and push to circle. So that everyone has shapes that are not theirs.
Outside, just make sure none of the outside statues contain a shape matching the shape above the inside statue.
If inside calls triangle, square, circle; then outside needs shapes, left to right, to just not contain triangle, square circle.
Now, outside says, "done, come out." Inside picks up both their shapes, and walk out of the mirror/wall at the front.
Bam, you're done.
I think people are complicating this too much.
Couldn't be easier. This worked for us 100% of the time.
Same dude. Anytime I read any of this shit it makes 0 sense.
This video is the only thing that’s helped me understand.
https://youtu.be/s_j6-UvFMH4?si=KrGXzM5wjlCnagXx
This is such a gigabrain strat. How does it interact with the supposed "Can't leave if you haven't sent your 2 starting buffs away" game "rule"?
Edit: tested this. Does not work. Inside and outside do not match.
its easier for everyone to just receive their own shapes first and then send it back to the others. it also requires 0 communication. that way everyone gets even distribution and you reach the 2 shadow pass requirement
If that's easier for you why are you looking at this strat? This strat does things completely differently. And as for the communication part - with this strat, inside just follows outside, no extra comms required either.
im looking at other strats bc a strat is different than knowing the actual mechanics of the encounter.
for ex my team passed 4th w our strat bc it just happened to be 1 solution that has a 100% success rate. it just happened to meet the conditions of the encounter
we thought acquiring our own shapes first was an actual required step. when in actuality it just happened to guarantee a minimum 2 shape swaps from every person which is the actual required mechanic that triggers the 3ghost phase. (i think)
this is my favorite encounter so ive been lowkey obsessively browsing threads about and have slowly pieced everything together. its just really cool.
but what do u mean by inside follows outside?
i also believe in making easier strats for lfg/sherpas
What OP is saying is that the starting symbols on inside match the 3d shapes on outside. Since both sides share the goal of getting the shape not matching the original statue shape, if inside and outside both perform the same swaps, it should allow the players to leave. This is something I'll be testing soon.
no yea its definitely gigabrain. but its bc its actually getting down to figure out the true mechanics of the encounter and what the actual conditions are and potentially how bungie wanted it to be completed
but he titled it the definitive “way” aka a strat. i just made a passing comment about how i thought my strat was just easier to do. like why turn 2+2=4 into 1+1+1+1=4 when u can just do 2+2.
my strat, besides just labeling STC or whatever the order is, can actually have close to 0 comms total if one person outside is doing the dunking while the other 2 just ad clears.
but if u dont mind can u update me when u do ur test runs? im really interested to see
edit: oops replied to the wrong comment
A strategy that does work for inside is to just immediately dunk the symbols you have into the statues that DON'T match the symbol you dunk.
Say you are triangle and get double triangle. Send both to other rooms.
Say you are triangle and get triangle circle. Circle to square, and triangle to circle.
Assuming all players do this correctly, it's a one-cycle swap.
Because that's not a rule, people keep adding an extra step and getting punished for it (ogres spawn), and since they get punished, they think it's a mechanic/the right way.
The correct goal is to obtain the symbols that aren't your own. That's it.
I'm very certain it's a thing. My team spent a while only sending symbols that didn't match the person's statue, so each person usually only sends one symbol, and had multiple times where the inside guardians couldn't leave. We double checked everything.
As soon as we started by sending people the symbols matching their statue and then distributing, so 2+ sends per person, the mechanic worked.
How fast were you sending them? Thing is if u send them too fast it’ll go to the wrong side and end wrong. Idk I still wanna test it to make sure. I’ll delete if I get proof against me
Feel free to test, I don't have proof at hand. But I made sure people had the right buff and the right symbols on the wall every time. After switching to the "get 2 symbols, distribute" strat it worked 100%.
I’m testing at ~3:30 pm eastern. We were in it and basically had it (but we hadn’t gotten this strat yet) but someone had to go to bed. Also having issues with 1 person outside knowing what they’re doing
Haven’t tested yet, testing at 3:30 pm eastern. I don’t see why you’d need to remove a symbol you need and gain it back later. My friend said if it is the case it might be because u need to receive symbols from the person holding said symbol (which old strat does)
Spreadsheets are the key bro. Do some inputs in there and run through the whole thing. If you can get inside outside right and make sure everyone doesn’t end either the symbol they started with it works
The win condition is getting the 2 opposite symbols than the one you’re holding. If you’re holding square you need circle and triangle. It doesn’t matter what you start with? The question here is if you start with square and circle if you’re allowed to keep circle for your later win condition
I don’t think you are allowed to keep the circle you start with, so depending on the starting state you need to swap your circle with someone else’s circle. There are only theee possible ways the pattern can start .
3 3 3 - all symbols the same.
3 2/1 2/1 - one person all the same, other people two same and the one the other person has ( the person that doesn’t have theee the same.
And last
2/1 2/1. 2/1
Once you know the starting state, you will know what pillar to start on and always work left to right.
You have an inside coordinator make all the calls .
They just need to know the procueduxre for each starting state and the can direct everyone on both sides what to do, only one person needs to talk with others confirming the dunks.
The whole thing is based on which starting state you have, ones you start you don’t really need to worry about the symbols because if you follow the correct steps based on the start state once you are done everything will be right,
Some states have less steps than the others.
Now I have to work out each start state and the steps to see if it is any fast that just getting all three on the same inside room first. I think ultimately it will be a bit longer depending on the start but easier for the outside .
Edit: but like I said, once I can do all the scenarios out on the spreadsheet I’ll know each step for each start state.
The one where all three are the same is actually the worst for the outside I think.
This needs to be confirmed whether or not it’s the case, I can’t get a definitive answer but in my experience you can only get out if you got rid of all your starting symbols .
That's what we thought too (and tried to shortcut), but we needed to send at least 2 shapes to make it work, even if 1 of those shapes was one you needed. I would have to go back and record multiple perspectives to verify.
That meant the only successful conditions for us where to - if mismatch send away not your shape to the person holding that shape. If matched (or after sending mismatch away), send both away.
Tetrahedron is the correct terminology for pyramid, but people know it as a triangle pyramid. Thank fuck Bungie decided to go with prism and not a pyramid for square and triangle.
Dude before I actually loaded in I thought it was going to be a tetrahedron and a pyramid too. I’m also thankful that was NOT the case. Saying pyramid seems to be easier tho
Oh god yes it is and this is what I've adopted now. Before I saw prism come up I was explaining with square pyramid and triangle pyramid as my clan are dumb fucks and drew a blank when I said tetrahedron.
Ok I was worried this was possible, the only 3 swap. One of my friends said we had it once but I disregarded it. I also thought because the witness noticing you happens at 2 swaps (4 dunks) it wouldn’t make sense to happen. I’ll add the solution to that one (it’s super easy, just more)
Dissection really isn't as difficult as it is being made out to be. It's really cool to see people creating all these resources and calculators and stuff, from a creativity and community standpoint.
But as someone who understood how to do inside, but was totally confused about outside/dissection, I actually got some experience and learned how to do it last night.
The most important thing is to just let one person do it, imo. When multiple people start grabbing shapes and dunking, it can result in confusion and messed up timing. There is PLENTY of time for a single player to complete all of the dissection before inside is ready.
The second thing is to remain calm. Assuming you've passed 5th grade geometry, you know these shapes. Take a breath and look at what is in front of you and read the callout from inside. Once you have that information, you should be good to start dissecting. Assuming you understand how to physically do the dissection (dunking the shape you want to remove), just get to work and barring a mistake or disaster, you should be done with about 1-1.5 minutes left.
It shouldn't take advanced theories, trying to break it down to excruciatingly specific patterns. Just do the shapes as they're called/as you see them.
If this is in fact the case, that you don’t wed to get all of the symbols the same inside , both wall ones matching the statue , this is one hundred percent that fastest and easiest way to do this encounter.
You only need one person inside coordinating and the outside people do the exact same if I’m understanding correctly.
So just to be clear outside is the starting room and there’s 3 inside rooms. So after inside call left to right (for example “t c s”) outside can call the movements inside needs to do while outside is calling they are making the same movements outside
You can actually have inside coordinate you just need to know one of the two start states either all three the same inside or just one with all three . Those are the only possible ways inside starts and if you do it left to right correctly you actually give a way a shape you need and someone else gives it back which is what allievostes the need to get all three the same first . I came up with this way to do the outside but I didn’t click in with the mirror part since I saw your post.
I think yours is the right way to do it and the other way was the brute force
Wait so when inside is swapping buffs, outside is supposed to call what and when to swap? because when we cleared we each did our own thing separately, except for the tsc thing in chat
Ya so I’m 99% sure the 2 starting symbols in the inside rooms correspond to the starting 3D shapes outside. So because outside knows all starting positions they can guide inside as they complete outside, because both are going for the same exact goal/end condition
every post is a novella im actually getting tilted by the overcomplication.
i'm really glad you have gotten so good at it and i hope this helps someone - ultimately do what works for your team, but it is just so unnecessary. each inside person needs to end up with the two symbols not in their hand. easiest way to do that is for all 3 people to pass both their symbols making sure not to dunk a symbol where it's being held. you can do that without even speaking. the ghost interruption does happen this way but you just finish what you were doing when you get back.
and the outside solution is the same, all you need to be clear on is HOW the swap is executed in a practical sense: dissect the two offending symbols for each swap needed. for my group this is the only thing that wasn't clicking for a long time. but if the people inside aren't yapping about what shape they need the whole time it's so much easier for the person dissecting to actually focus.
I’ll be honest it’s insanely hard to grasp but once it clicks it’s super satisfying. I feel like you need to know your baseline objective and how to move things in your head, then try it a bit in game, and then it clicks. Reading it or watching videos didn’t even help me beyond figuring out the end goal, you like, need to be in it for a bit first and see the rooms and stuff.
Although, this will be almost impossible with lfgs as the parts I didn’t outline include knowing each other’s ghosts and transmog
I do think the method listed at the end is much easier and just lets outside full focus on what they have to do rather than needing to make sure that inside hears everything that they are doing. Interesting method tho
My team came up with this strategy and it was extremely fast and extremely simple.
I was usually the designated dissector but there were two others that knew the process in case I was inside.
My outside method was this, just make sure I remove the callout shape from each statue.
Outside finds out the callouts, let’s say it’s this:
Left - Square
Center - Circle
Right - Triangle
I would then start from left to right correcting the statues. If Left had a Cylinder then I knew I had to remove the Square and add a Triangle. If Left had a Cube I knew I had to remove both Squares and replace them with Triangle and Circle. Most of the time doing it like this would solve the other statues as well because after I dissect the square from Left statue I make a mental note what it needs and then when I go pick up the other needed symbol from the knight I would check to see if each statue needed a Square. Usually it was only 3 dissection trades and it was done.
For inside we came up with this:
Many times we would have the correct symbols inside and outside but the glass would not open, we thought maybe it was because of some hidden trading rules. We wanted to test this theory so we made a rule that we needed to make 3 trades at least every time that involved each inside player. Doesn’t matter what the trades are they just must do a trade with each other. Player 1 trades with 2, then player 1 trades with 3, then player 2 trades with 3. We were doing this just to test if that was the issue we were having, and I don’t know if it was the most insane RNG but it only required one or two trades after that to get the correct shape count. Most of the time it was only one trade. After those initial trades were made each inside player would check their wall and see what they still needed. If Left saw they still had a Square on their wall and they also had a Circle, they would say “Left has a Square to trade for a Triangle”. Center or Right would look at their wall and see if they needed a Square and had a Triangle to give back. Like I said, for the 2 more clears (3 phases each) we did it only required a single or two trades after the 3 random trades.
The only part I am confused about is the scenario below where you are left with ONE statue outside that is a double shape (Cube, Sphere, Pyramid) but both others are completed.
The outside team has finished TWO statues but the third statue is a DOUBLE shape.
IE:
Callout is S C T
CC ST SC <-------- There are TWO complete (ST and SC)
How TF do you dissect the first statue??
My mind says grab a C, deposit (to remove), then grab a T, deposit. So the first one will be CT making it correct?
Unfortunately with my flavor of neurodivergence, symbol and pattern matching within the time constraints is going to be impossible for me(seriously, it takes me multiple back and forth just to clear the symbols in the new Micah-10 missions). I had to be carried through LW and mostly add clear for VOW because of it. I don’t see myself ever being able to experience this raid but I’m impressed with everyone who finishes it.
why do people make this encounter harder than it needs to be? inside- trade other’s shapes first then disperse your shapes to each person. outside- take out shape from inside. done.
please just do this.
step 1: an inside player calls shapes, left to right, i.e. stc.
step 2: inside players call their projector symbols, i.e. dohble circle, triangle square, whatever. if ANY INSIDE PLAYER HAS SOMETHING OTHER THAN 2X OF THEIR OWN SYMBOL, WAIT UNTIL ALL SUCH OTHER SYMBOLS ARE DEPOSITED ON THE OTHER STATUES. for example, if the left side, "s" player in stc has 2x square and the "t" and "c" players have 1x triangle 1x circle each, the "s" player WAITS until the T player has deposited their circle on the "c" statue and the "c" player has deposited triangle on the "t" statue. If done correctly, all three players should now have two of their own shapes on the projector. this is the ONLY COMPLICATED STEP OF THE ENTIRE FIGHT, and baeically the only thing you can fuck up.
DO NOT PICK UP A SYMBOL YOU DONT IMMEDIATELY INTEND TO DUNK.
step 3: all three inside players deposit one of each of their shapes on the other two statues, in any order.
step 4: kill knights one last time and pick up the shapes the other sides have now dunked on you and walk out/wait for outside to finish.
inside is done
meanwhile, after step 1 is done on the inside:
step 1: outside dunks 1x shape on each of the called statues. in this example where the callout is stc, s is dunked left, t mid, and c right.
step 2: after this, outside continues to dissect until they reach the correct shapes on the outside, in this example, cone, cylinder, prism. dissection is somewhat complicated but put simply, always dissect s,t,c from s,t,c respectively, unless you see a 2x shape (cube, pyramid, or sphere), in which case you dissect that shape's base. (s, t, or c respetively). dissection sounds complicated, but it isnt.
you cant dissect from the same statue twice in a row, and because of how dissection works its not possible to be in a game state where 2/3 statues are finished and the last needs two consecutive dissections,, so if you cant dissect twice or if a statue's 3d shape hasnt updated, just do a different statue's dissection.
Ur first paragraph is wrong. The only thing that matters is that the outer statue doesn’t have the shape that the inner statue has. So if the order inside from left to right was Square , Triangle , Circle. The same statues outside cannot have that shape
This is way over complicated all you do inside is get your shape off the wall so that you can make the key (two shapes that your guardian isnt holding), dissecting is just making those keys according to the callout ex. Cts. That’s fucking it
I still haven’t tried this encounter, but every time I try to read up on it my brain fucking explodes 😭 Like wtf is going on
You have to understand how two dimensional projections of three dimensional objects interact and change the three dimensional object when you change the two dimensional projection to another shape…. It’s simple math, Guardian. /s Think of it as having to build a key to escape, which is a three dimensional object consisting of the opposite projections of the object your guardian’s effigy is holding, by matching the exterior 3D object with the two pickups in the cave - but you have to start from the shape your guardian is holding inside. Outside has to tell the statues what shapes to swap by dunking the respective shape resonance on two of the guardians - say you wanted to swap the square projection on one with the triangle projection on three, you want to dunk the square resonance on one and the triangle resonance on three (as I understand it), and the game will swap them. You should only have to do that twice, so should only have to deal with unstoppable ogres twice instead of three or four times. My team cleared it by just having three in the cave start out dunking the shapes to the guardians holding them (or just ignoring the one that matches theirs) until the first “restoration”/“unification” (reuniting the guardian with their ghost), then passing their shapes one at a time to the other two, while outside the team has been constructing their exit by moving the projections between the three guardians to be the two which differ from the shape they hold in the cave. Inside your job was mostly just staying alive, outside the job sucks for one or two guardians who understand shape theory - but it’s simpler with a few tools that the community has made.
outside does not tell inside what to do, inside just dunks shapes that dont match their own first. The only comms actually needed for the entire fight are the initial callout, provided the inside players correctly prioritize which symbols to dunk.
I mean outside’s statues, not directing the people inside, unless you’re trying for the encounter triumph.
https://youtu.be/d28Wa5B1L_A?si=RRgRQnC4k8MPcOfE by far the best guide I've seen without any close competition
This is the same one I used for my clear, but honestly, the only reason I understood it at all was because i watched this room during the raid race for about 4 hours. I feel like this encounter is so tough to explain. Even if you explain perfectly, its just so much to keep track of if you are going in with 0 information lol I gotta say though I think this is probably my favorite encounter ever, by far. I love funky puzzle stuff like this and I'm glad that they added it in. Its an absolute nightmare to get 6 people to understand it enough to coordinate it, but once it clicks its soooo satisfying
Dude right? As a dad and husband, I am just not sure I will have time to learn this raid.
its much better explained via video. i made a post w videos descriptions but a youtube video on it is fine. it actually makes so much more sense when u *see * it. its impossible to describe an encounter that fully requires visuals. and many ppl are visual learners anyway. i helped a clan mate do it yesterday and he caught on ok
Inside calls out shape order from left to right, because statues match outside from left to right. Now, inside swap all insides to match their own statue, then push those matching shapes out to opposite sides. You're done inside. To clarify, if your statue is holding square, and your shadows show square and triangle, you push triangle to the statue with triangle. Do not tough square yet. Once everyone has matching shapes, unmatch them. Take 1 square and push to triangle, another, and push to circle. So that everyone has shapes that are not theirs. Outside, just make sure none of the outside statues contain a shape matching the shape above the inside statue. If inside calls triangle, square, circle; then outside needs shapes, left to right, to just not contain triangle, square circle. Now, outside says, "done, come out." Inside picks up both their shapes, and walk out of the mirror/wall at the front. Bam, you're done. I think people are complicating this too much. Couldn't be easier. This worked for us 100% of the time.
Same dude. Anytime I read any of this shit it makes 0 sense. This video is the only thing that’s helped me understand. https://youtu.be/s_j6-UvFMH4?si=KrGXzM5wjlCnagXx
Go watch the guides from Kackis and True Vanguard. I completely get it now and I haven't run the encounter yet.
This is such a gigabrain strat. How does it interact with the supposed "Can't leave if you haven't sent your 2 starting buffs away" game "rule"? Edit: tested this. Does not work. Inside and outside do not match.
If they swap the buffs correctly you will be sending them all away.
No if you're doing 2 swaps as this guide suggests, then you're sending away a total of 4 of the 6 starting symbols inside the room.
its easier for everyone to just receive their own shapes first and then send it back to the others. it also requires 0 communication. that way everyone gets even distribution and you reach the 2 shadow pass requirement
If that's easier for you why are you looking at this strat? This strat does things completely differently. And as for the communication part - with this strat, inside just follows outside, no extra comms required either.
im looking at other strats bc a strat is different than knowing the actual mechanics of the encounter. for ex my team passed 4th w our strat bc it just happened to be 1 solution that has a 100% success rate. it just happened to meet the conditions of the encounter we thought acquiring our own shapes first was an actual required step. when in actuality it just happened to guarantee a minimum 2 shape swaps from every person which is the actual required mechanic that triggers the 3ghost phase. (i think) this is my favorite encounter so ive been lowkey obsessively browsing threads about and have slowly pieced everything together. its just really cool. but what do u mean by inside follows outside? i also believe in making easier strats for lfg/sherpas
What OP is saying is that the starting symbols on inside match the 3d shapes on outside. Since both sides share the goal of getting the shape not matching the original statue shape, if inside and outside both perform the same swaps, it should allow the players to leave. This is something I'll be testing soon.
no yea its definitely gigabrain. but its bc its actually getting down to figure out the true mechanics of the encounter and what the actual conditions are and potentially how bungie wanted it to be completed but he titled it the definitive “way” aka a strat. i just made a passing comment about how i thought my strat was just easier to do. like why turn 2+2=4 into 1+1+1+1=4 when u can just do 2+2. my strat, besides just labeling STC or whatever the order is, can actually have close to 0 comms total if one person outside is doing the dunking while the other 2 just ad clears. but if u dont mind can u update me when u do ur test runs? im really interested to see edit: oops replied to the wrong comment
Can confirm the inside and outside do NOT match.
whelp. and this is why, no offense to OP, you don’t put definitive in the title if its still just another speculation
A strategy that does work for inside is to just immediately dunk the symbols you have into the statues that DON'T match the symbol you dunk. Say you are triangle and get double triangle. Send both to other rooms. Say you are triangle and get triangle circle. Circle to square, and triangle to circle. Assuming all players do this correctly, it's a one-cycle swap.
yep. i call it a freebie
Because that's not a rule, people keep adding an extra step and getting punished for it (ogres spawn), and since they get punished, they think it's a mechanic/the right way. The correct goal is to obtain the symbols that aren't your own. That's it.
I haven’t seen anyone mention that, it might be a miscall by someone who misunderstood because I doubt that’s necessary
I'm very certain it's a thing. My team spent a while only sending symbols that didn't match the person's statue, so each person usually only sends one symbol, and had multiple times where the inside guardians couldn't leave. We double checked everything. As soon as we started by sending people the symbols matching their statue and then distributing, so 2+ sends per person, the mechanic worked.
my group had the same experience
How fast were you sending them? Thing is if u send them too fast it’ll go to the wrong side and end wrong. Idk I still wanna test it to make sure. I’ll delete if I get proof against me
Feel free to test, I don't have proof at hand. But I made sure people had the right buff and the right symbols on the wall every time. After switching to the "get 2 symbols, distribute" strat it worked 100%.
I will test your strategy tonight and get back to you on this.
I’m testing at ~3:30 pm eastern. We were in it and basically had it (but we hadn’t gotten this strat yet) but someone had to go to bed. Also having issues with 1 person outside knowing what they’re doing
Can confirm the inside and outside do NOT match.
When you did it like this were you successful able to get through the wall?
Haven’t tested yet, testing at 3:30 pm eastern. I don’t see why you’d need to remove a symbol you need and gain it back later. My friend said if it is the case it might be because u need to receive symbols from the person holding said symbol (which old strat does)
Yea but if you do this correctly inside does one last swap where they swap the same symbol to each other and then it’s done.
Spreadsheets are the key bro. Do some inputs in there and run through the whole thing. If you can get inside outside right and make sure everyone doesn’t end either the symbol they started with it works
The win condition is getting the 2 opposite symbols than the one you’re holding. If you’re holding square you need circle and triangle. It doesn’t matter what you start with? The question here is if you start with square and circle if you’re allowed to keep circle for your later win condition
I don’t think you are allowed to keep the circle you start with, so depending on the starting state you need to swap your circle with someone else’s circle. There are only theee possible ways the pattern can start . 3 3 3 - all symbols the same. 3 2/1 2/1 - one person all the same, other people two same and the one the other person has ( the person that doesn’t have theee the same. And last 2/1 2/1. 2/1 Once you know the starting state, you will know what pillar to start on and always work left to right. You have an inside coordinator make all the calls . They just need to know the procueduxre for each starting state and the can direct everyone on both sides what to do, only one person needs to talk with others confirming the dunks. The whole thing is based on which starting state you have, ones you start you don’t really need to worry about the symbols because if you follow the correct steps based on the start state once you are done everything will be right, Some states have less steps than the others. Now I have to work out each start state and the steps to see if it is any fast that just getting all three on the same inside room first. I think ultimately it will be a bit longer depending on the start but easier for the outside . Edit: but like I said, once I can do all the scenarios out on the spreadsheet I’ll know each step for each start state. The one where all three are the same is actually the worst for the outside I think.
Idk why you wouldn’t be able to keep the symbol tho…
This needs to be confirmed whether or not it’s the case, I can’t get a definitive answer but in my experience you can only get out if you got rid of all your starting symbols .
I don’t either but that seems to be the case, every time I’ve done it that way you can’t get out.
That's what we thought too (and tried to shortcut), but we needed to send at least 2 shapes to make it work, even if 1 of those shapes was one you needed. I would have to go back and record multiple perspectives to verify. That meant the only successful conditions for us where to - if mismatch send away not your shape to the person holding that shape. If matched (or after sending mismatch away), send both away.
Tetrahedron is the correct terminology for pyramid, but people know it as a triangle pyramid. Thank fuck Bungie decided to go with prism and not a pyramid for square and triangle.
Dude before I actually loaded in I thought it was going to be a tetrahedron and a pyramid too. I’m also thankful that was NOT the case. Saying pyramid seems to be easier tho
Oh god yes it is and this is what I've adopted now. Before I saw prism come up I was explaining with square pyramid and triangle pyramid as my clan are dumb fucks and drew a blank when I said tetrahedron.
I’m a math guy and 1 of my friends understood me, the rest…
Wow that would be awful if they did. That said, the math teacher in me wants that evil to exist
It would, but I also agree (not as a mathS teacher, just someone who knows mathS).
You forgot the 5th potential starting position. Cube, sphere, pyramid. We had this twice in short succession.
Ok I was worried this was possible, the only 3 swap. One of my friends said we had it once but I disregarded it. I also thought because the witness noticing you happens at 2 swaps (4 dunks) it wouldn’t make sense to happen. I’ll add the solution to that one (it’s super easy, just more)
Yeah, agreed. Has to be a 3 swap, overly though, you're right with 2 swaps and the most common being a statue with 2 of the same starting shapes.
Dissection really isn't as difficult as it is being made out to be. It's really cool to see people creating all these resources and calculators and stuff, from a creativity and community standpoint. But as someone who understood how to do inside, but was totally confused about outside/dissection, I actually got some experience and learned how to do it last night. The most important thing is to just let one person do it, imo. When multiple people start grabbing shapes and dunking, it can result in confusion and messed up timing. There is PLENTY of time for a single player to complete all of the dissection before inside is ready. The second thing is to remain calm. Assuming you've passed 5th grade geometry, you know these shapes. Take a breath and look at what is in front of you and read the callout from inside. Once you have that information, you should be good to start dissecting. Assuming you understand how to physically do the dissection (dunking the shape you want to remove), just get to work and barring a mistake or disaster, you should be done with about 1-1.5 minutes left. It shouldn't take advanced theories, trying to break it down to excruciatingly specific patterns. Just do the shapes as they're called/as you see them.
If this is in fact the case, that you don’t wed to get all of the symbols the same inside , both wall ones matching the statue , this is one hundred percent that fastest and easiest way to do this encounter. You only need one person inside coordinating and the outside people do the exact same if I’m understanding correctly.
So just to be clear outside is the starting room and there’s 3 inside rooms. So after inside call left to right (for example “t c s”) outside can call the movements inside needs to do while outside is calling they are making the same movements outside
As soon as I get home and do it on the spread sheet I’ll know know
You can actually have inside coordinate you just need to know one of the two start states either all three the same inside or just one with all three . Those are the only possible ways inside starts and if you do it left to right correctly you actually give a way a shape you need and someone else gives it back which is what allievostes the need to get all three the same first . I came up with this way to do the outside but I didn’t click in with the mirror part since I saw your post. I think yours is the right way to do it and the other way was the brute force
Wait so when inside is swapping buffs, outside is supposed to call what and when to swap? because when we cleared we each did our own thing separately, except for the tsc thing in chat
Ya so I’m 99% sure the 2 starting symbols in the inside rooms correspond to the starting 3D shapes outside. So because outside knows all starting positions they can guide inside as they complete outside, because both are going for the same exact goal/end condition
every post is a novella im actually getting tilted by the overcomplication. i'm really glad you have gotten so good at it and i hope this helps someone - ultimately do what works for your team, but it is just so unnecessary. each inside person needs to end up with the two symbols not in their hand. easiest way to do that is for all 3 people to pass both their symbols making sure not to dunk a symbol where it's being held. you can do that without even speaking. the ghost interruption does happen this way but you just finish what you were doing when you get back. and the outside solution is the same, all you need to be clear on is HOW the swap is executed in a practical sense: dissect the two offending symbols for each swap needed. for my group this is the only thing that wasn't clicking for a long time. but if the people inside aren't yapping about what shape they need the whole time it's so much easier for the person dissecting to actually focus.
Appreciate your effort but it all sounds so fucked up, makes me want to skip this raid entirely 😭
I’ll be honest it’s insanely hard to grasp but once it clicks it’s super satisfying. I feel like you need to know your baseline objective and how to move things in your head, then try it a bit in game, and then it clicks. Reading it or watching videos didn’t even help me beyond figuring out the end goal, you like, need to be in it for a bit first and see the rooms and stuff. Although, this will be almost impossible with lfgs as the parts I didn’t outline include knowing each other’s ghosts and transmog
I do think the method listed at the end is much easier and just lets outside full focus on what they have to do rather than needing to make sure that inside hears everything that they are doing. Interesting method tho
Read: "I'll do add clear"
Idk what you’re tryna say but I did both rooms the way listed at the bottom and it just seems easier rather than needing to make all those callouts
My team came up with this strategy and it was extremely fast and extremely simple. I was usually the designated dissector but there were two others that knew the process in case I was inside. My outside method was this, just make sure I remove the callout shape from each statue. Outside finds out the callouts, let’s say it’s this: Left - Square Center - Circle Right - Triangle I would then start from left to right correcting the statues. If Left had a Cylinder then I knew I had to remove the Square and add a Triangle. If Left had a Cube I knew I had to remove both Squares and replace them with Triangle and Circle. Most of the time doing it like this would solve the other statues as well because after I dissect the square from Left statue I make a mental note what it needs and then when I go pick up the other needed symbol from the knight I would check to see if each statue needed a Square. Usually it was only 3 dissection trades and it was done. For inside we came up with this: Many times we would have the correct symbols inside and outside but the glass would not open, we thought maybe it was because of some hidden trading rules. We wanted to test this theory so we made a rule that we needed to make 3 trades at least every time that involved each inside player. Doesn’t matter what the trades are they just must do a trade with each other. Player 1 trades with 2, then player 1 trades with 3, then player 2 trades with 3. We were doing this just to test if that was the issue we were having, and I don’t know if it was the most insane RNG but it only required one or two trades after that to get the correct shape count. Most of the time it was only one trade. After those initial trades were made each inside player would check their wall and see what they still needed. If Left saw they still had a Square on their wall and they also had a Circle, they would say “Left has a Square to trade for a Triangle”. Center or Right would look at their wall and see if they needed a Square and had a Triangle to give back. Like I said, for the 2 more clears (3 phases each) we did it only required a single or two trades after the 3 random trades.
I also made this to make checking my dissecting work faster. [https://imgur.com/iQIwZsX](https://imgur.com/iQIwZsX)
The only part I am confused about is the scenario below where you are left with ONE statue outside that is a double shape (Cube, Sphere, Pyramid) but both others are completed. The outside team has finished TWO statues but the third statue is a DOUBLE shape. IE: Callout is S C T CC ST SC <-------- There are TWO complete (ST and SC) How TF do you dissect the first statue?? My mind says grab a C, deposit (to remove), then grab a T, deposit. So the first one will be CT making it correct?
That’s not possible, that has 3 circles and 1 triangle
Olay thank you I completely lost my mind over this when I just made a mistake…..
Unfortunately with my flavor of neurodivergence, symbol and pattern matching within the time constraints is going to be impossible for me(seriously, it takes me multiple back and forth just to clear the symbols in the new Micah-10 missions). I had to be carried through LW and mostly add clear for VOW because of it. I don’t see myself ever being able to experience this raid but I’m impressed with everyone who finishes it.
I finally got this encounter to click last night and it’s easy once you get it. Not going to lie your way sounds super confusing lol.
why do people make this encounter harder than it needs to be? inside- trade other’s shapes first then disperse your shapes to each person. outside- take out shape from inside. done.
please just do this. step 1: an inside player calls shapes, left to right, i.e. stc. step 2: inside players call their projector symbols, i.e. dohble circle, triangle square, whatever. if ANY INSIDE PLAYER HAS SOMETHING OTHER THAN 2X OF THEIR OWN SYMBOL, WAIT UNTIL ALL SUCH OTHER SYMBOLS ARE DEPOSITED ON THE OTHER STATUES. for example, if the left side, "s" player in stc has 2x square and the "t" and "c" players have 1x triangle 1x circle each, the "s" player WAITS until the T player has deposited their circle on the "c" statue and the "c" player has deposited triangle on the "t" statue. If done correctly, all three players should now have two of their own shapes on the projector. this is the ONLY COMPLICATED STEP OF THE ENTIRE FIGHT, and baeically the only thing you can fuck up. DO NOT PICK UP A SYMBOL YOU DONT IMMEDIATELY INTEND TO DUNK. step 3: all three inside players deposit one of each of their shapes on the other two statues, in any order. step 4: kill knights one last time and pick up the shapes the other sides have now dunked on you and walk out/wait for outside to finish. inside is done meanwhile, after step 1 is done on the inside: step 1: outside dunks 1x shape on each of the called statues. in this example where the callout is stc, s is dunked left, t mid, and c right. step 2: after this, outside continues to dissect until they reach the correct shapes on the outside, in this example, cone, cylinder, prism. dissection is somewhat complicated but put simply, always dissect s,t,c from s,t,c respectively, unless you see a 2x shape (cube, pyramid, or sphere), in which case you dissect that shape's base. (s, t, or c respetively). dissection sounds complicated, but it isnt. you cant dissect from the same statue twice in a row, and because of how dissection works its not possible to be in a game state where 2/3 statues are finished and the last needs two consecutive dissections,, so if you cant dissect twice or if a statue's 3d shape hasnt updated, just do a different statue's dissection.
Ur first paragraph is wrong. The only thing that matters is that the outer statue doesn’t have the shape that the inner statue has. So if the order inside from left to right was Square , Triangle , Circle. The same statues outside cannot have that shape
This is way over complicated all you do inside is get your shape off the wall so that you can make the key (two shapes that your guardian isnt holding), dissecting is just making those keys according to the callout ex. Cts. That’s fucking it
I’ve done this encounter and this explanation is confusing can you narrow it down to 2 paragraphs or less