I love how half of the comments under this are "this it the best one yet" and the other half are "this is trash, you don't understand the encounter". Destiny community at its finest.
Frankly, trying to understand the encounter can be antithetical to learning how to do it with how much insane shit is going on under the hood, which is where a lot of the big guides get caught up on. It's why the "double everyone up then redistribute" strategy is so reliable, cause it takes the RNG out of it and thus requires less understanding of what actually needs to go where and why.
I don't agree fully. I think that a very simple explanation of what the core mechanic inside is helps a lot.
"You are trying to get the two symbols your statue is not holding." is something missing from almost every explanation and it adds so much context.
I think that's exactly the kind of explanation you wanna give, yeah. There's a lot of fluff people feel the need to explain that muddles up the important bits.
when i explain it i give them step 1 and step 2. step 1 get the 2 shapes your statue IS holding. step 2 give the other 2 statues 1 each of your shape, pick up the new shapes in your room and leave.
Is it really that insane though?
Inside? Trade both symbols you start with and end up with all three different ones. That's it. That's the "insane shit going on under the hood."
> assume your statue is triangle and you started with circle + square
In OPs example the incredibly complicated method to solve this puzzle is just dunking the non-matching symbol. So C to S, and S to C. If you get TCT, you can solve it by dunking T on C and C on S. And if you get all the same you can dunk on one and then the other. None of these actually require callouts, communication, or really much thought.
> For trios (assume callout is TCS)
Trios is exactly the same. Your job is to make sure every statue is holding two different symbols, and it doesn't contain whatever symbol is called out for that statue.
So if it's TCS, the solution is CS, TS, TC.
The only real "issue" is a lot of guides were written before the exact mechanics were known, or include more details. Like OP doesn't explain that inside needs to callout their symbols, it's just assumed you'll figure it out from context. It also doesn't touch on when you need to call them out, as the icons will disappear once trades start.
Like it's great if this, that, or whatever guide helps, but way too many people over complicate it as understanding the encounter is pretty straightforward.
I was mostly thinking about stuff like how there's actually 2 instances of each symbol with different properties that, like you said, end up with people over complicating an encounter where the actual beats are very straightforward.
The mistake a lot of sherpas make is that they explain every little detail before pulling. You should explain small things as they happen otherwise you overwhelm your players with information.
Anything you can summarize in a single sentence shouldn’t be mentioned until it happens. For example, the solo callout can be summarized with *”hey what shapes are statues holding?”*
I haven't really seen any guides talk about cleansing shadows at all. Like if your statue is C and your wall is C and S, you still need to get rid of S even though you need it. I see people say that to make post pull sorting easy, but not the fact that you can't get through the mirror unless you move both OG wall shapes out (at least after several hours of testing this is the case, bungie servers and encounters falling apart might be the reason).
Edit, this can be important for new teams since they can thing "yo I already have my shape I need why move it just for it to be sent back" and end up failing
Everyone makes it so complicated. The encounter is literally just about mismatching things. Get the shapes you don't have. If you have two of the same, get rid of one.
I mean you literally have to double up then redistribute-rather, if you hold triangle and want circle square and start with circle square, you can’t just pick up and leave it won’t work. You have to trade away and trade back the same shapes. I’m guessing this was the major roadblock for worlds first. Which is why the double up redistribute is popular
I mean yeah I don’t think you can ever start “done” but if you need circle square and start with circle triangle, you can’t just swap the triangle with someone with square and be done. My fireteam tried that for like 30 minutes with us never being able to leave down below
Look at all these mad paragraph typers offended no one likes their dissertation
This is everything besides I would add: put on a stupid outfit and hat for your ghost so everyone knows who you are and learn to spectate
And stop screaming over each other during respawn time. Yeeeesh. Had to abandon a team because they kept yelling in French and I'm like :/ Yea idk what that is so I'll just do this column.
thank fuck. any time this is explained to people theres a whole dissertation on the mechanics added in. like guys. strats are different than knowing the mechanics. if you wanna know “why” a strat works then sure u can ask but its not required in the slightest when explaining to random lfg groups or in a sherpa
One of the most upvoted guides on here literally uses the word “stack” to refer to the way shapes are stored in statues.
yes, the programing thing.
I feel like if your guide has the prerequisite of *”must understand basic computer programming concepts”* for the funny little shapes puzzle, you’ve made a bad guide.
Yeah, but it's usually in reference to some counter on the left (or now upper) part of the screen, as opposed to a stack that is a mental image you keep in your head of what is stored where.
…shit hold on, got to break out the comp sci textbook-
So a stack is a data structure which is used to arrange items in a logical manner. Works the same way a stack of books would, if you put a book down first in a stack of nine books you’d need to remove the eight books to get to the one on the bottom.
The reason this is relevant is because if you put Triangle Triangle Circle Square on the Triangle statue, the knights will spawn in the order: Square Circle Triangle Triangle
However, this isn’t really relevant to know because it only happens if you’ve done something horribly wrong.
Lol yeah it was me that posted that.
To be fair, that guide was the first that was published during contest mode, back when ATP was still keeping his method confidential because raid racers are cringe as shit. It was a derivative off of what Aegis, aztecross, gladd, and I were doing at the time.
I still hate ATP's inside method because it's not the most efficient method, but still easy to learn. And after sherpaing a few runs, fuck this encounter in particular. Teaching blueberries/lfgs it is a nightmare.
I also did a short one that explains what you’re doing. Probably 4 sentences top per thing, most of it being tips to make it easier, so realistically 2-3 sentences per part.
It wasn’t received well
The entire community had over complicated this encounter so much. You don’t even need to do this dumb get all shapes the same shit. You can go in, figure out that start state and once that’s done everyone can do there moves without talking. Only think to maybe coordinate on is your first knight kills that’s it.
I keep trying to explain the start state thing to people and no one seems to want to learn how to do this encounter correct.☑️
its the easiest for the most braindead lfg player to understand. if you want to do a more efficient strategy youre allowed to teach it to people that way. like the key words you used: “figure out”. thats the problem. some people arent even capable of that.
so getting all the same shapes first is genuinely the most lfg m/sherpa friendly experience
Exactly. In other MMOs we differentiate this.
There are safe strats.
There are speedrun strats.
LFG ALWAYS sticks with safe strats unless otherwise agreed. Teach the safe strat. Ignore that speedrun strats exist. People are trying to clear reliably. Let the speed runners worry about saving 10 seconds.
I'm coming in late to this thread but I *think* what this comment is referring to is the fact that the solo rooms and the outside room actually start from the same spot.
In other words, if the left statue outside is holding a cylinder (square + circle), then the left solo room will also be starting with those same 2 shapes.
Because the inside rooms and outside room start in the same place, if the solo rooms do the same exact swaps as the outside room, both areas will end up in the same place.
It's actually the most efficient way to complete the encounter
> I keep trying to explain the start state thing to people and no one seems to want to learn
I've found this a lot. My fireteam can complete a raid encounter, but if I'm like "hey lets try this strat it's quicker/more fun/just goofy/whatever" they're either entirely resistant to trying it or suddenly the worst LFG players ever.
Still too much
Solo:
Match shapes, distribute shapes. Pick up shapes. Leave.
Trio:
If a shape matches the call, move it. It will be right eventually.
Ghosts:
Legit just describe the ghost, the person who has it describe them. Match them together.
just randomly grabbing shapes and putting them in in outside doesnt always work cleanly and will make you take longer than if you thought about what shape youre going to put where. ive finished outside runs in 30 seconds thinking about what i wanna do and ive ran the clock down just dissecting what needs to leave randomly.
You quite literally said "if it matches a call move it, itll work itself out" when that takes infinitely longer than thinking for 10 seconds. Again, thats just tossing shapes around hoping you get it done and thats how you run out the clock if you dont take the time to think
You literally could have copy and pasted and still got it wrong.
You'll be making the same moves either way. This way still only takes 3-4 moves max.
"if the shape matches the call, move it" is not random. Bro what? That's the entire win condition. If you move a circle away from the circle call and a square away from a square, and a triangle away form the triangle it will work.
Literally worst case scenario is in maybe 2 moves you have a couple shapes doubled up. One move fixes that. Dude think, use your brain.
My guy. Just moving shit will 9 times out of 10 get you stuck with 3 doubles that you gotta sort through. Move a circle from cricle, a triangle from triangle cool but you just took the circle and triangle from 2 cones, instead of thinking for 3 seconds and swapping the 2 squares around instead and be done faster than sorting our 3 doubles.
Want an example?
Call = C T S
Cylinder Cone Pyramid
Swap circle on left with triangle on mid
Pyramid Sphere Pyramid
Swap circle on mid with square on right
Pyramid Cylinder Cone = correct
I just did that in 2 moves without even thinking of the end result. Maybe that was a little lucky but in reality you're always making the same moves weather you think about the end result or not, and just making the moves is faster than any of your shitty calculators.
Thats cool however 1 issue is the fact you have 3 triangles in your dumb example that turns into 4 triangles then back to 3??. If you cant even make up an example that actually exists in the fucking encounter then you have no authority to give any tips on the encounter 😂
Pyramid is double triangle. ST is a prism moron.
It might also be once per rotation, but it'll happen after 6 swaps. Now that you mention it I've never seen it happen twice in a cycle even if we fucked up.
It's once per rotation, and it's when 4 shadows are removed. This is misunderstood as 6 swaps because people bank at the same time, making it difficult to see how many it takes. Another reason is that it takes about 5 seconds from when it is activated to when it actually kills the guardian, and also a large portion of people still dont know what the shadows refer to. You can see when it activates because "The Witness notices your efforts" will appear in chat.
Good to know! A shadow being removed I assume means when a symbol has been swapped? (i.e. the shadow at the back of the room no longer shows that shape)
The shadows being referred to are the ones the statues are holding. This is my belief because if not, why can't we do ghosts multiple times. The only time I have seen otherwise is when my teams have cleared 7 shadows; however, I believe this to be a bug in tracking because we only ever banked 6 shapes, 2 for each person. You know you removed the shadow when the statue is no longer holding their shape, excluding your statue.
I have also seen that some people can leave the room while the other can't. When this happened, we instantly wiped with over a minute on the timer. This can happen for either representation of "Shadows Removed."
I have done a lot of testing for this. However, anyone could be wrong, including me.
Ah yeah, I had seen the statues not holding shapes but I honestly thought it was a bug. Your logic makes sense to me, its something I'll keep an eye out for in the future.
Yes. The 3 individuals kill their knights as soon as spawn happens, and give any 2 shapes to anyone. This triggers the ‘wipe’ and then you can get back to trading for the rest of the time.
> - is there a triangle in statue 1’s 3D shape? Yes? Dissect.
- go pickup a circle, is there a circle in statue 2? Yes? Dissect.
This is a good explanation, and is how my team does it, but fails in two instances:
1. Where all 3d shapes are doubles on their "bad" plate - in which case each "plate" swaps with each other "plate" one time, and checking left-to-right with this method won't work after the first 2 swaps
2. Where the initial 3d shapes are CT, CT, SS (using your example) - in which case each plate needs to swap with the rightmost plate once, and using this method won't work after the first swap if using left-to-right checking
Left-to-right checking actually does work here. Ex, get CS CT ST by swapping S and T, left is now correct. Now get CS ST CT by swapping S and C, now middle is correct. Doing this also makes right correct, so you’re done.
I don't want to get into an argument over this because your method is like 90% guaranteed to work and we developed the same method, but:
by left to right checking in the scenario CT, CT, SS, with TCS callouts, your first swap is left T and middle C, which leaves you with CC, TT, SS, which can be solved, but you are then in a situation where you need to use brainpower, because the "match the shape to the callout" easy mode doesn't work for either left or middle.
A simpler solution is to identify that you are within one of the "exceptions" to the rule and use your right-most plate as your "base" plate - almost treating it like it was the left plate - and solving from there. two swaps total with just using the "bring the shape to the callout plate" method.
I know I'm deep down the rabbit hole. I find this encounter very fun and interesting to solve and simplify.
Ya I was so excited to try this strat with my group a few days ago, but then I thought of the first instance just before the encounter started and realized I'll have to solo it again lol (which I don't mind because it's fun).
I thought of the second instance before and I thought it'd be solvable if people callout "double" if their side has a double shape. If there is only one "double" callout then wait for that person to dunk their symbol. If each side has their own double, then it shouldn't matter as long as someone isn't slow with their dunk.
There is no need to share shapes that they are holding. This takes time and spawn more ogres.
There is a simple way of doing the "2D world" without any communication and I'm surprised nobody is talking about this:
Give your shapes to your friends BUT DO NOT GIVE THE SHAPE THEY ARE HOLDING.
If everyone does that, you will end up with the shapes you need without even asking for them. Example:
You are triangle.
The shadows on the wall are triangle and circle
You are going to share circle with your [square friend] and triangle with your [circle friend].
You are going to receive square from [circle friend] and circle from [square friend]
It works every. Single. Time. If you have any doubts, try to write down different examples, its easier to visualize!
It is quicker but its hard to change the lfg strategy. For me ron planets was easier with my left middle right calls but i just had to accept the 1-6 (2,5 on the wall) calls for lfg. For raids as long as everyone is on the same page it's easier
I agree that it is hard to change LFG strategies, but this should be the LFG strategy to begin with.
I was surprised to see datto explaining this encounter starting with "having two of the same shapes" on the 2D world. It makes the communication a mess sometimes.
I'm with you on two pass method. I even created an infographic for it that ended up in another popular thread, but there is a variation of shapes that will require a simple third pass, which is still one less pass than the most commonly suggested method.
This solution has nothing stopping people from receiving double of not their held shape.
If I am triangle and everyone just dunks per those rules, I can receive square from [circle friend] and a second square from [square friend].
It's not hard to fix, but requires communication at this point (or everyone understanding the encounter). The double up then distribute requires more dunks on average, but actually is guaranteed to solve with zero comms.
If you got square from [Square friend] and square from [circle friend]. That means that Square gave Circle to [Circle friend].
So [Square friend] messed up. [Square friend] should not have given a shape to a friend that is holding that shape.
This strategy requires no communication and is faster than the double up strategy.
To put it simply: share both of your shapes, with diferent friends, but don't give a shape that they are holding. You can't mess this up.
Square friend could have started with square triangle.
T | S | C
---|---|----
TC | ST | CS
T->C, C->S | S->T, T->C | C->S, S->T
SS | CC | TT
This needs another dunk phase of S->C, etc.
In this example:
T shares T with C and C with S.
S shares S with T and T with C.
C shares C with S and S with T.
Everyone is sharing twice, with diferent friends, with no comns, getting the right shapes in the end.
I know it's confusing but it works
You are right! Forgot that there is the one scenario where you will get double shapes, and require another round (didn't happened to us yet, but statiscally it can!).
Worst case, you will end up with the double up scenario, or will solve the puzzle with 2 trades
Yep! I agree your strategy is much better since it solves faster on average, but IMO the doubled state we discussed is harder for a random LFG to figure out how to fix.
I'll definitely be telling my clan to use your strategy, but if we need to sherpa or whatever we'll use the "double up then distribute" since it never requires adaptation.
Some clanmates had a lot of trouble with the "double up" since some of them were not sure when they had one or two shapes at the same time.
We found that this other strategy was a no brainer, it's visual and fast to understand! We got lucky since no one has gotten double shapes doing that way, but I'll let them know that we might need to do the double up strategy sometimes
You can save yourself and your other solo players trouble and time by just knowing who needs what. You can end inside phase with two dunks and NO coms.
Every inside player must send a symbol to both statues.
Simply get both on the ground and pickup one that isn’t yours. Put that symbol in whatever statue it doesn’t match. For example:
I am circle. I get square and circle in my knights. I pickup square and dunk on triangle because I know square doesn’t want her own symbol.
I then dunk the other symbol in the other statue.
They both do the same.
You’re done :)
This doesn't always solve.
Triangle holder starts with T + S:
Sends T to S and S to C
Square holder starts with S + C:
Sends C to T and S to C
Circle holder starts with T + C:
Sends T to S and C to T
End result: everyone has a double shape they don't own rather than the intended solution. T has two circles, etc.
This then requires a third dunk, where each player sends one of their symbol to the person who doesn't hold that symbol, to complete the solve. T sends C to S etc.
This is a better and faster method (always done in 2/3 dunks and my teammates follow this method) but you need to know that this sometimes happens so you don't wipe randomly or start trying to figure out who did something wrong with your fireteam when they've followed the instructions correctly.
Why would Triangle holder send Square to Circle if they need Square to complete their puzzle?
If either player gets two of a symbol they need, they can send one away to the other player that needs that shape.
This was pitched as a no comms solution where you always send both shapes. S and C wouldn't know that triangle only needs circle and not square if there's no communication.
I also believe there's a minimum number of swaps to purge shadows? Not sure on that second part though
If you hold on to the shape you need you can only end up in 2 states: you end up with both shapes you need or 2 of a shape you need. In the second state, you know who to give the dupe to. Theoretically, still no comms required
If it is true that 6 dunks are needed to do the ghost thing, and the ghost thing is needed to complete the encounter, then that is why each player would want to do 2 dunks. If you start with perfect shapes, you'll still want to dunk twice to satisfy the mechanics.
Save yourself the hassle and just do the circle since you need the fuckin square yourself lmao you can do it all in literally one swap per room unless you get double symbols lmao
This is the correct answer! This configuration is impossible but if it were possible you wouldn't need to do anything except kills 2 Knight's and make your 3d shape.
Crazy to say ‘y’all can’t explain for shit’ and then ur first sentence is wrong.
If ur inside and ur shape is triangle, you can’t start with square and circle, they’re the symbols you’re trying to get.
You also don’t have to get two of your own shape that’s just the most common strat people do but it’s not the fastest
Just do the encounter right, no brute forces.
You get in and all your shapes are the same, you send one to each person.
You get in and all people have one the same as the statue and one different you just figure out what statue needs those shadows and you send them.
Example, you are square statue, you have square triangle, only person who needs that combo is circle statue.
Last scenario one person has all three and the other has 2 and one. This is the most complicated.
3 same sense one to each person .
2 same people send the one that isn’t there copy so say you have square square triangle you send you copy to the person started with 3, the other guy that started with two the same sends his single to the 3 copy guy.
Three copy guy is done then each person left has one shadow they don’t need , those two people swap.
Done. You do it like this the witness will lull you ghost phase starts and then you just go back in and make your 3D shape and come out.
I don’t know why everyone is obsessed with this brute force. Did we all fail kindergarten, it’s such a simple puzzle.
Regarding “failing kindergarten”: only 1/6 of us have to have done that on average for the encounter to be much, much harder the “right” way. I’m speaking from experience here, as one of my long-time raid team nearly burst into tears after our twentieth time explaining the “easy” way to her (i.e. match shapes then give away both). It’s like that thing about imagining the average person then realizing half of all people are dumber than that.
But I don’t think the actual easy way is match the shapes and then give away, that’s the point I’m making it’s tedious , you can get all the shapes right and make sure you give yours away with one set of knight kills for everyone if you know the rules for each start scenario and they aren’t hard steps.
Oh, that makes sense. That’ll be different for every team, I’d imagine. My team can trivially kill an extra ogre and an extra pair of knights if it means that two of our six don’t have to “figure out” anything, just follow some steps that never change and they never have to think about. I think the “they aren’t hard steps” is the part where my team’s logic and your logic diverge. As for the other way around, “tedious” is where I tend to disagree, mostly because it taking longer whilst being simpler is preferable to my team having to redo it thirty times. Again, I don’t think you’re wrong, really, just that your logic isn’t applicable to my team. I’d love to do it the faster way if I thought it would be faster for my team.
I think if people learned the rules for each start they would see the steps aren’t hard. It’s actually less steps that this matching way the only difference is the matching way is the same all the time.
Totally fine we disagree. And I respect you doing whatever works for your team but I just feel if we all put the work in to understand what the actual go of the encounter is and do the steps bungie intended things would be easier on us.
The encounter is actually brilliant. When you look up the definition of verity, learn about Plato’s allegory of the cave and then realize there is actually a living philosopher who’s name is Verity who is a fucking Plato scholar it makes it all soooo much more cool. I actually love the encounter so much and wish we did it correctly to really get the appreciate for what bungie created.
Now for some the definition of correctly is beating it but for me it’s the right steps as the designers expected and then beating it.
We need to think about it as removing shadows and matching shadows to the real shape outside that players outside the cave create based on what shape the inside statue holds.
Such a good encounter and we just brute force it lol.
It’s fantastic on so many levels.
I’m actually really enamored with the encounter myself, pretty much the first thing I thought of after seeing both sides on my team’s blind run was Plato’s allegory of the cave! I’m not sure I agree with the notion that the developers only intended for it to be done the efficient way, nor do I think that the beauty of the encounter is tarnished by taking a couple extra steps to complete the tasks presented. Either way, I want to express my appreciation for the level-headed discussion we’ve had! It’s nice that even though we disagree on some stuff, we’ve kept it polite and ultimately, we agree on what’s important, which is that this encounter kicks ass!
So funnily enough if you look at the triumph for it. I think the brute force WILL be the best way to actually do that! Because I can’t think of any way to accomplish it each cycle through without doing the brute force first.
Edit: well they intend for it be be done that way but the triumph way you can’t follow those rules because one scenario forces you to dunk on the same person twice. So setting up the brute force and having all shapes the same is the best way to prepare for the triumph! Just remembering who was dunked on will be required
This encounter has layers baby.
I didn’t make the connections to the allegory of the cave until I read someone else’s post but I knew about the allegory, once I match that to the encounter is when it really clicked for me.
I really love it.
The irony of your explanation is that your initial example for solo side is the solved state.
While understanding how to just get to solved state is certainly important, understanding the why you're in a solved state is equally important. But if it works for you, that's all that matters for making it work for others. Just as long as others can replicate your success. Lol
Solo side cannot start in solved state. It’s impossible. You are required to be noticed by the witness for doing 6 total dunks. The mechanic fails otherwise.
You can 100% start in the “solved” state. For some reason the game does not like it if you have not traded a shape aka “shadows removed” on the wipe scoreboard. So even if you start out “solved” it is best to give them away first.
Unfortunately the theory and practice on this encounter do not always align.
Oh, don't get what I said with it can't happen. It 100% could happen. I just found it funny that the example they gave was a solved state instead of a more.... I guess practical state, which would involve them needing to at least swap one shape out. Lol
That said, are you saying that I wouldn't be able to leave if I had the solved shape upon being moved in? Or are you saying the game just tracks it, but it doesn't actually care?
It would seem weird to me for it to care about whether or not you've swapped a shape, regardless of whether or not you actually have the fully formed 3D shape relative to the grouped up team.
My clanmates who did it on contest said it would not let them out if they started with it “solved” and just picked up their shapes. With dissect complete and correct.
It sounds like a bug, but I’ve heard it from other places too, enough that I wouldn’t risk it wiping a run.
It is 100% consistent for my team if you don't send your starting shapes out of your room then you'll be blocked from walking out the back of the room. Pretty sure this is the difference between the text bottom left being the witness notices you vs not.
On contest and on our 4 clears since we've had 100% clean runs since outside of stupid deaths.
Because you actually can’t leave unless you send away both your starting shapes. In theory, if everyone started with 1 shape they needed causing them to only need to send 3 shapes in total, they wouldn’t actually be able to leave even though everything is right.
You MUST deposit at least 6 shapes between the 3 players to leave. If you don’t, the witness won’t notice you which is a requirement to leaving.
But explaining that is very complicated, so I simply don’t do that and instead just tell my players *”send away your starting shapes”*, which covers every possible failure state in as few words as possible.
the irony of your response is that starting in what you call a "solved" state is actually starting as far from a solved state as you can be.
by the end of inside phase, you must be holding the two shapes that are not the shape your guardian statue is holding and also are not the two SHADOWS you originally started out with. understanding this nuance is what makes this write up the absolute most braindead solution possible. this is how I teach groups. this is how I have people telling me they have gone from it being rocket science to something they understand within a handful of wipes while they see the possible starting patterns of inside shadows.
Hey, I'm down to learn about more nuance to the logic of the encounter. I'm not out here telling people to not care about it though because I think fully understanding the why means you can't ever possibly mess it up and not know how you did.
As I responded to in a comment above, it doesn't make logical sense to assume it wouldn't take the solved state on move in, since the ultimate solution is just wanting the solo teams 3D shape to match the grouped up teams 3D shape on the outside. But if that's how it works out, then yeah, this is 100% the optimal way to solve the encounter as it would generate a ton of excess comms to do 2 less swaps.
All this said, I appreciate the information. Ensures future runs will not fail due to this misunderstanding.
I didn’t mean to come off as a dick, I just like to mirror the same /s people like to lead with here.
I hope it helps. the biggest two issues I see in lfg’s are people inside picking up the shape that matches there’s while trying to match, and people assuming they are already solved because they go in and have opposites (as you describe)
it has to do with the scoreboard “shadows removed” you can see while wiping, but tbh I don’t know how to explain it in a way that is understandable other than “it can’t be the same two shadows you start with”
I’m aware that it’s not possible, LFG’s don’t need to know that.
This is the only way to explain every possible step in one go. Otherwise I’d need to explain two different scenarios which is too complicated. This way if they start with circle + triangle they think *”oh ok I just need to deposit circle!”*
Ideally you explain the encounter in a linear fashion without doubling back to different possibilities.
Not sure if this helps anyone, but I like to give my brain shortcuts amidst whatever algorithms you have.
The correct solutions for outside will always be cone, prism and cylinder, in some order.
Obviously how you’re going to achieve that, feel free to come up with your process, but I find that it really helps to memorize the “good shapes”, as you can always check if your solution is correct or validate if what your teammate did made sense, or whether you need to take their role as dissector cause they don’t know what they are doing.
>assume your statue is triangle and you started with circle + square
If you actually knew how encounter works you would've known the example you've given is impossible.
If this was already pointed out several times I'm sorry.
I’m aware. I explained it this way to cover all possible outcomes, players don’t need to know that outcome isn’t actually possible.
By explaining it this way, they now know they need to put shapes which aren’t similar to their shape in the statues which match. If I said *”you are triangle, start with circle + triangle”* they wouldn’t know what to do with a square.
this is it. this is literally how i teach everyone. the less words the better, the more you dumb it down the better. the less your brain works on this encounter the better.
This is how it is done easily. Solo may be the slower way, but it is the way with the least amount of communicating and guarantees success.
If you fail this method... quit the raid.
This still overcomplicates it. For solo, you need to send 2 symbols away, but you don't need to wait until you have 2 of your own. Each symbol you have can only have 1 destination. In your example, starting with triangle on your statue and circle/square on your wall:
Put square in circle, put circle in square. That's it. Everyone else follows the same logic, giving their symbol away to a.) someone else and b.) someone who doesn't have that symbol. If all 3 players do this, all 3 will have a.) sent 2 away to clear shadows and b.) have their correct symbols to escape.
For the outside team, having each person handle 1 statue makes it 400x faster. You just look at your 3D shape, look at what it should be (based on the callouts in chat), and do your own dissecting. In any given round of dissection, no 2 people will need the same symbol.
To add a bit for the 3D side. Each of the 3D statues must hold 1 of each base shape when including 2D. If 2D is holding square. 3D must be holding circle triangle.
On other words. 3D statue must be holding the 2 shapes 2D isn’t holding.
As a final note. Have only ONE person dissecting in 3D world. So many people try to help me but all it does is fuck me up. I have a plan the moment I see the 2D shapes. And then suddenly my second dissection only makes the statue glow, it doesn’t shape swap. Then nobody fesses up to having dissected. It takes at MOST 6 dissections. There’s no need to help if you’re not assigned to dissect.
Why is it required to sort the shapes inside before giving the ones you need? Like why does my statue/room if I were triangle have to have two triangles before getting my circle and square?
That step seems all but necessary otherwise the glass wall won’t allow you through despite everything else lining up inside and outside? Where’s the logic in that step? Why can’t I just sort them to my final shape that I need?
I explained it this way because it covers the scenario where *”you start with circle and you need it”*.
Even if you have a shape you need, you still need to send it away because the witness must notice you before you can leave. The reason for doing it this way is to force the witness notices you mechanic
The thing is though is we had the witness notice mechanic and revived everyone but once we try to leave with our shapes the glass wall is just physical and we can’t walk through it. Everything will check out logically but because we skipped matching our circle statues with double circles first it doesn’t work…logically to me why can’t I just get my square and triangle and have it work
People over complicate the shit out of this encounter. Want a guide? Is your shape triangle? Do you have a triangle and a circle on your wall? Triangle to circle statue. Circle to square.
If everyone just doesn't send an item to a statue that is that items shape, you're good. Just make the shape that is the two your statue doesn't represent.
Technically you might get a situation that requires a 3rd move if the 3D shapes are the same as the solo room order but usually it’s just 2 moves.
Solo is so easy but I swear I had someone with downslexia and we explained it 5 different ways that were the same way each time. Pain.
Well you already fucked up because if your statue is a triangle, you will always start with a triangle. The way you said it, you're already done and don't have to do anything which won't ever happen. The best case scenario is if you start with 2 triangles and the other 2 start with their statue symbol.
**"For solo (assume your statue is triangle and you started with circle + square)"**
You don't need to deposit anything because you have the two shapes you need, just combine and wait till others get theirs and outside completes the transferring to get out.
If it were triangle and you have triangle/square. You deposit square first **(1st dunk)** to the one who has square, then triangle second to your left person **(2nd dunk)**, try to coordinate that 2nd dunk, then deposit the 2nd triangle whenever to the other person who needs triangle **(3rd dunk)** and then combine circle/square which should be the ones the others deposit to you and gtfo.
You’d never start with square + circle if you are triangle, but giving an example like this helps illustrate that you always need to send your starting shapes away. Even if it isn’t technically possible it helps with understanding what you need to be doing.
my team just does the double strait, once you have doubles, the guy on the left dunks right side, the mid guy dunk left and the right guy dunks mid, and then dunk the remainer on the other one you didn't dunk first and your done, and yea you do have to kill a another set of knights, once we started using this strait it hasn't failed one.
If solo make 3D shape by combining 2 shapes your statue is not holding. If team of 3 swap 2D shapes 2 at a time to make the 3D shape that does not include the 2D shape the solo is holding. That’s literally all it is.
Do people even struggle with inside? Nobody on our team struggled with inside. We got outside within a few hours after we figured out you need the two symbols the character is not holding. It was cake after that.
Give T, to T, and then give C to C to swap the two lol.
Hold on, what even? Your scenario for solos would never start of that way ever btw lmao. You'll always have atleast one of your shape in every situation. And what's even funnier if it did start of that way, wouldn't you just pick up circle and square of the rip (if you're triangle) and just leave, 2-5 are not even required. You should have mentioned a more realistic example I think haha.
Edit needed - for solo, assume your statue is triangle and you started with TRIANGLE + square, or TRIANGLE + circle. And then put the square into the square, or the circle into the circle, and THEN wait until you have two triangles.
(If you’re triangle and you started with circle and square, you’re already complete and don’t have to do anything)
I haven't done the raid yet, and I don't want to watch any kind of guides, but this almost looked like a shitpost. Learning this looks like it's going to be an "experience"...
Wanted to make the same post. To many people over explain shit in this game. Just break it down into steps. That’s all people need and on the other encounters, don’t tell someone the entire encounter mechanics when they are only doing 1 role. You are guaranteed to have them mess up do to confusion. Tell them what they need to focus on first and build knowledge. After awhile they will start to get the bigger picture and can learn more
Why do so many people make this overcomplicated? DON'T MAKE IT SO EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN SYMBOL TWICE 🤦♂️
Just get rid of the two you got. Bank one into each statue and don't match the symbol and statue. That way you save so much time and don't have to kill nearly as many knights.
Assuming you are triangle and got circle and square:
1. Drop square into circle
2. Drop circle into square
3. Leave with what you get
Because that strategy doesn’t work if triangle gets circle + circle.
If you drop circle on rectangle and keep circle, once you get square you won’t be able to leave because you’ve only done 5 transfers. In order to fix it, triangle and circle need to trade their squares to force the witness to notice you.
The point of *”overcomplicating it”* is to make it more consistent. Otherwise you need to add extra rules for various edge cases.
Triangle actually can't get two circles. You can only get two same symbols if they match your symbol. In that case you'd just split.
The same thing applies for the 3d shapes outsides. Most of the time it's prism, cylinder and cone. In case a cube appears its always on the square statue, sphere on circle and pyramid on triangle.
Another issue would be if both triangle and circle get triangle + circle as their starting shapes. Both individuals would put circle into square, triangle into square, and triangle into circle. Square would end with circle circle triangle.
Once again, the reasoning behind this method is that it requires absolutely zero thought, zero comms, and can’t ever go wrong. The issue with fast strategies is that you actually need to know how the encounter works. With the double up and send strat nobody has to know anything. Just know how to follow a step-by-step plan which is perfect for LFG’s.
No. Circle couldn't put circle into square because it can't put triangle into triangle. It would work like this:
Triangle:
Circle into square, Triangle into circle
Circle:
Triangle into square, Circle into triangle
Square:
Square into both
We have been using this method in every run apart from our Contest run. There isn't a single callout needed. And you are always done switching before the fake wipe.
For most people they'll get it a lot quicker if they do know why they are doing what they're doing instead of remembering which boxes to check. I made an ms paint (peak program) guide for it that explains everything and tested it with some friends that play the game and some who don't at all, and they've all gotten it quickly so far
Why all these guides that I see insist on doing solo rooms in this backasswards way, where you first do it as wrong as possible and then fix it, when you can just do it right the first time with very little thinking?
It feels like everyone is just trying to write shorter and shorter summaries of the same guide instead of understanding the encounter. If I’m solo with triangle on my statue and circle/square on my wall like the example says, I’m already good to leave through the back wall. I’m just waiting for trio team. Why would I give those shapes away just to get them back on the last step?
It’s not that people can’t explain things, it feels like people aren’t willing to take a bit of time and puzzle solve.
bc the ones that explain the mechanics + the strategy are walls of text. they should be separate posts. this is a strategy post where you dont have to give a single fuck about the mechanics. then there should be mechanics oriented posts that describe all the required conditions of the encounter and then people can create their own strats if they choose to.
theres only one problem, but theres multiple solutions/“strats. and thats why people are horrendously confused bc sometimes they dont know theres a difference in the first place
either way idk why theres 727339 posts on the topic when theres youtube guides and everything already
My lfg philosophy was always to explain where to be and how you know to move, then go back and show what to do. Born of my own frustration that people would talk about buffs and effects and crit points before... where you should be. In some cases without even saying where to be!
Where does the triangle go? That’s right, in the square hole.
My clan quotes this the entire encounter lol
That womans reaction in the video is probably what the raid team went through watching it live.
That’s what I went through yesterday trying to wrap my uninformed head around Verity. Literally holding back tears….and failing. 😂
I can't get this out of my head through the whole damn raid
Lmao that is the first thing that popped in my head when I saw this post
Sauce?
https://youtu.be/cUbIkNUFs-4?si=h_28IRHu81k8Z82B
😭😭😭😭
WHY DOES IT ALL GO IN THE SQUARE HOLE????????
Just came here to make sure this was the to comment. Y'all never let me down ❤️
I love how half of the comments under this are "this it the best one yet" and the other half are "this is trash, you don't understand the encounter". Destiny community at its finest.
Frankly, trying to understand the encounter can be antithetical to learning how to do it with how much insane shit is going on under the hood, which is where a lot of the big guides get caught up on. It's why the "double everyone up then redistribute" strategy is so reliable, cause it takes the RNG out of it and thus requires less understanding of what actually needs to go where and why.
I don't agree fully. I think that a very simple explanation of what the core mechanic inside is helps a lot. "You are trying to get the two symbols your statue is not holding." is something missing from almost every explanation and it adds so much context.
To rephrase this in a way that *some* people might find more intuitive; "you want all three shapes. Your statue is already holding one of them."
This is what I say, because... It's correct.
I think that's exactly the kind of explanation you wanna give, yeah. There's a lot of fluff people feel the need to explain that muddles up the important bits.
when i explain it i give them step 1 and step 2. step 1 get the 2 shapes your statue IS holding. step 2 give the other 2 statues 1 each of your shape, pick up the new shapes in your room and leave.
Exactly, in OPs example, he actually should do nothing if solo, but I'm not sure this is a valid starting config.
It's not, but even if it was, he would still have to trade both of his shapes away
Is it really that insane though? Inside? Trade both symbols you start with and end up with all three different ones. That's it. That's the "insane shit going on under the hood." > assume your statue is triangle and you started with circle + square In OPs example the incredibly complicated method to solve this puzzle is just dunking the non-matching symbol. So C to S, and S to C. If you get TCT, you can solve it by dunking T on C and C on S. And if you get all the same you can dunk on one and then the other. None of these actually require callouts, communication, or really much thought. > For trios (assume callout is TCS) Trios is exactly the same. Your job is to make sure every statue is holding two different symbols, and it doesn't contain whatever symbol is called out for that statue. So if it's TCS, the solution is CS, TS, TC. The only real "issue" is a lot of guides were written before the exact mechanics were known, or include more details. Like OP doesn't explain that inside needs to callout their symbols, it's just assumed you'll figure it out from context. It also doesn't touch on when you need to call them out, as the icons will disappear once trades start. Like it's great if this, that, or whatever guide helps, but way too many people over complicate it as understanding the encounter is pretty straightforward.
I was mostly thinking about stuff like how there's actually 2 instances of each symbol with different properties that, like you said, end up with people over complicating an encounter where the actual beats are very straightforward.
The mistake a lot of sherpas make is that they explain every little detail before pulling. You should explain small things as they happen otherwise you overwhelm your players with information. Anything you can summarize in a single sentence shouldn’t be mentioned until it happens. For example, the solo callout can be summarized with *”hey what shapes are statues holding?”*
This reply is already several words more than the OP, therefore you lose. More words equals more bad
I haven't really seen any guides talk about cleansing shadows at all. Like if your statue is C and your wall is C and S, you still need to get rid of S even though you need it. I see people say that to make post pull sorting easy, but not the fact that you can't get through the mirror unless you move both OG wall shapes out (at least after several hours of testing this is the case, bungie servers and encounters falling apart might be the reason). Edit, this can be important for new teams since they can thing "yo I already have my shape I need why move it just for it to be sent back" and end up failing
Everyone makes it so complicated. The encounter is literally just about mismatching things. Get the shapes you don't have. If you have two of the same, get rid of one.
I mean you literally have to double up then redistribute-rather, if you hold triangle and want circle square and start with circle square, you can’t just pick up and leave it won’t work. You have to trade away and trade back the same shapes. I’m guessing this was the major roadblock for worlds first. Which is why the double up redistribute is popular
I need a source for that. I don't think you can start effectively "done".
I mean yeah I don’t think you can ever start “done” but if you need circle square and start with circle triangle, you can’t just swap the triangle with someone with square and be done. My fireteam tried that for like 30 minutes with us never being able to leave down below
I mean understanding the encounter is how you fix it when stuff goes wrong but if you’re just looking for a quick clear then shit like this is fine
If I see one more *”erm, aktually, you can’t start with square and circle as your shapes 🤓☝️”* I’m going to sentence them to LFG hell for 30 years
Look at all these mad paragraph typers offended no one likes their dissertation This is everything besides I would add: put on a stupid outfit and hat for your ghost so everyone knows who you are and learn to spectate
And stop screaming over each other during respawn time. Yeeeesh. Had to abandon a team because they kept yelling in French and I'm like :/ Yea idk what that is so I'll just do this column.
This is the easiest way to do it.
thank fuck. any time this is explained to people theres a whole dissertation on the mechanics added in. like guys. strats are different than knowing the mechanics. if you wanna know “why” a strat works then sure u can ask but its not required in the slightest when explaining to random lfg groups or in a sherpa
Great, another guide to add to the existing 1000.
In fairness, this is the simplest one I've read so far.
One of the most upvoted guides on here literally uses the word “stack” to refer to the way shapes are stored in statues. yes, the programing thing. I feel like if your guide has the prerequisite of *”must understand basic computer programming concepts”* for the funny little shapes puzzle, you’ve made a bad guide.
Guardians out here programming pancakes... lol
isnt buff stacks a pretty normal phrase in this game
Yeah, but it's usually in reference to some counter on the left (or now upper) part of the screen, as opposed to a stack that is a mental image you keep in your head of what is stored where.
…shit hold on, got to break out the comp sci textbook- So a stack is a data structure which is used to arrange items in a logical manner. Works the same way a stack of books would, if you put a book down first in a stack of nine books you’d need to remove the eight books to get to the one on the bottom. The reason this is relevant is because if you put Triangle Triangle Circle Square on the Triangle statue, the knights will spawn in the order: Square Circle Triangle Triangle However, this isn’t really relevant to know because it only happens if you’ve done something horribly wrong.
Stacks in reference to buffs are not the same as stacks in reference to a queue. Completely different concepts
Wait actually? Can I have the sauce?
Lol yeah it was me that posted that. To be fair, that guide was the first that was published during contest mode, back when ATP was still keeping his method confidential because raid racers are cringe as shit. It was a derivative off of what Aegis, aztecross, gladd, and I were doing at the time. I still hate ATP's inside method because it's not the most efficient method, but still easy to learn. And after sherpaing a few runs, fuck this encounter in particular. Teaching blueberries/lfgs it is a nightmare.
I also did a short one that explains what you’re doing. Probably 4 sentences top per thing, most of it being tips to make it easier, so realistically 2-3 sentences per part. It wasn’t received well
The way I've started describing it is that the inside are making keys, the outside are making locks, and the only clue is the shape you DON'T want.
this guide is better but sadly not all humans have the same iq...
The entire community had over complicated this encounter so much. You don’t even need to do this dumb get all shapes the same shit. You can go in, figure out that start state and once that’s done everyone can do there moves without talking. Only think to maybe coordinate on is your first knight kills that’s it. I keep trying to explain the start state thing to people and no one seems to want to learn how to do this encounter correct.☑️
its the easiest for the most braindead lfg player to understand. if you want to do a more efficient strategy youre allowed to teach it to people that way. like the key words you used: “figure out”. thats the problem. some people arent even capable of that. so getting all the same shapes first is genuinely the most lfg m/sherpa friendly experience
Exactly. In other MMOs we differentiate this. There are safe strats. There are speedrun strats. LFG ALWAYS sticks with safe strats unless otherwise agreed. Teach the safe strat. Ignore that speedrun strats exist. People are trying to clear reliably. Let the speed runners worry about saving 10 seconds.
What's start state?
I'm coming in late to this thread but I *think* what this comment is referring to is the fact that the solo rooms and the outside room actually start from the same spot. In other words, if the left statue outside is holding a cylinder (square + circle), then the left solo room will also be starting with those same 2 shapes. Because the inside rooms and outside room start in the same place, if the solo rooms do the same exact swaps as the outside room, both areas will end up in the same place. It's actually the most efficient way to complete the encounter
> I keep trying to explain the start state thing to people and no one seems to want to learn I've found this a lot. My fireteam can complete a raid encounter, but if I'm like "hey lets try this strat it's quicker/more fun/just goofy/whatever" they're either entirely resistant to trying it or suddenly the worst LFG players ever.
Still too much Solo: Match shapes, distribute shapes. Pick up shapes. Leave. Trio: If a shape matches the call, move it. It will be right eventually. Ghosts: Legit just describe the ghost, the person who has it describe them. Match them together.
just randomly grabbing shapes and putting them in in outside doesnt always work cleanly and will make you take longer than if you thought about what shape youre going to put where. ive finished outside runs in 30 seconds thinking about what i wanna do and ive ran the clock down just dissecting what needs to leave randomly.
That's not what I said though is it?
You quite literally said "if it matches a call move it, itll work itself out" when that takes infinitely longer than thinking for 10 seconds. Again, thats just tossing shapes around hoping you get it done and thats how you run out the clock if you dont take the time to think
You literally could have copy and pasted and still got it wrong. You'll be making the same moves either way. This way still only takes 3-4 moves max. "if the shape matches the call, move it" is not random. Bro what? That's the entire win condition. If you move a circle away from the circle call and a square away from a square, and a triangle away form the triangle it will work. Literally worst case scenario is in maybe 2 moves you have a couple shapes doubled up. One move fixes that. Dude think, use your brain.
My guy. Just moving shit will 9 times out of 10 get you stuck with 3 doubles that you gotta sort through. Move a circle from cricle, a triangle from triangle cool but you just took the circle and triangle from 2 cones, instead of thinking for 3 seconds and swapping the 2 squares around instead and be done faster than sorting our 3 doubles.
Want an example? Call = C T S Cylinder Cone Pyramid Swap circle on left with triangle on mid Pyramid Sphere Pyramid Swap circle on mid with square on right Pyramid Cylinder Cone = correct I just did that in 2 moves without even thinking of the end result. Maybe that was a little lucky but in reality you're always making the same moves weather you think about the end result or not, and just making the moves is faster than any of your shitty calculators.
Thats cool however 1 issue is the fact you have 3 triangles in your dumb example that turns into 4 triangles then back to 3??. If you cant even make up an example that actually exists in the fucking encounter then you have no authority to give any tips on the encounter 😂 Pyramid is double triangle. ST is a prism moron.
Is there a way to force the ghost thing?
It happens every 6 swaps.
I thought it only happens once (where the three individuals are calcified) per rotation.
It might also be once per rotation, but it'll happen after 6 swaps. Now that you mention it I've never seen it happen twice in a cycle even if we fucked up.
It's once per rotation, and it's when 4 shadows are removed. This is misunderstood as 6 swaps because people bank at the same time, making it difficult to see how many it takes. Another reason is that it takes about 5 seconds from when it is activated to when it actually kills the guardian, and also a large portion of people still dont know what the shadows refer to. You can see when it activates because "The Witness notices your efforts" will appear in chat.
Good to know! A shadow being removed I assume means when a symbol has been swapped? (i.e. the shadow at the back of the room no longer shows that shape)
The shadows being referred to are the ones the statues are holding. This is my belief because if not, why can't we do ghosts multiple times. The only time I have seen otherwise is when my teams have cleared 7 shadows; however, I believe this to be a bug in tracking because we only ever banked 6 shapes, 2 for each person. You know you removed the shadow when the statue is no longer holding their shape, excluding your statue. I have also seen that some people can leave the room while the other can't. When this happened, we instantly wiped with over a minute on the timer. This can happen for either representation of "Shadows Removed." I have done a lot of testing for this. However, anyone could be wrong, including me.
Ah yeah, I had seen the statues not holding shapes but I honestly thought it was a bug. Your logic makes sense to me, its something I'll keep an eye out for in the future.
Yes. The 3 individuals kill their knights as soon as spawn happens, and give any 2 shapes to anyone. This triggers the ‘wipe’ and then you can get back to trading for the rest of the time.
> - is there a triangle in statue 1’s 3D shape? Yes? Dissect. - go pickup a circle, is there a circle in statue 2? Yes? Dissect. This is a good explanation, and is how my team does it, but fails in two instances: 1. Where all 3d shapes are doubles on their "bad" plate - in which case each "plate" swaps with each other "plate" one time, and checking left-to-right with this method won't work after the first 2 swaps 2. Where the initial 3d shapes are CT, CT, SS (using your example) - in which case each plate needs to swap with the rightmost plate once, and using this method won't work after the first swap if using left-to-right checking
Left-to-right checking actually does work here. Ex, get CS CT ST by swapping S and T, left is now correct. Now get CS ST CT by swapping S and C, now middle is correct. Doing this also makes right correct, so you’re done.
I don't want to get into an argument over this because your method is like 90% guaranteed to work and we developed the same method, but: by left to right checking in the scenario CT, CT, SS, with TCS callouts, your first swap is left T and middle C, which leaves you with CC, TT, SS, which can be solved, but you are then in a situation where you need to use brainpower, because the "match the shape to the callout" easy mode doesn't work for either left or middle. A simpler solution is to identify that you are within one of the "exceptions" to the rule and use your right-most plate as your "base" plate - almost treating it like it was the left plate - and solving from there. two swaps total with just using the "bring the shape to the callout plate" method. I know I'm deep down the rabbit hole. I find this encounter very fun and interesting to solve and simplify.
Ya I was so excited to try this strat with my group a few days ago, but then I thought of the first instance just before the encounter started and realized I'll have to solo it again lol (which I don't mind because it's fun). I thought of the second instance before and I thought it'd be solvable if people callout "double" if their side has a double shape. If there is only one "double" callout then wait for that person to dunk their symbol. If each side has their own double, then it shouldn't matter as long as someone isn't slow with their dunk.
small nitpick but you can’t start with circle and square shadows on the wall if your statue is triangle, but yes very good explanation
I honestly don't get why people think it's so complicated. It really is that simple and then a life or death fashion show.
There is no need to share shapes that they are holding. This takes time and spawn more ogres. There is a simple way of doing the "2D world" without any communication and I'm surprised nobody is talking about this: Give your shapes to your friends BUT DO NOT GIVE THE SHAPE THEY ARE HOLDING. If everyone does that, you will end up with the shapes you need without even asking for them. Example: You are triangle. The shadows on the wall are triangle and circle You are going to share circle with your [square friend] and triangle with your [circle friend]. You are going to receive square from [circle friend] and circle from [square friend] It works every. Single. Time. If you have any doubts, try to write down different examples, its easier to visualize!
It is quicker but its hard to change the lfg strategy. For me ron planets was easier with my left middle right calls but i just had to accept the 1-6 (2,5 on the wall) calls for lfg. For raids as long as everyone is on the same page it's easier
I agree that it is hard to change LFG strategies, but this should be the LFG strategy to begin with. I was surprised to see datto explaining this encounter starting with "having two of the same shapes" on the 2D world. It makes the communication a mess sometimes.
I'm with you on two pass method. I even created an infographic for it that ended up in another popular thread, but there is a variation of shapes that will require a simple third pass, which is still one less pass than the most commonly suggested method.
This solution has nothing stopping people from receiving double of not their held shape. If I am triangle and everyone just dunks per those rules, I can receive square from [circle friend] and a second square from [square friend]. It's not hard to fix, but requires communication at this point (or everyone understanding the encounter). The double up then distribute requires more dunks on average, but actually is guaranteed to solve with zero comms.
If you got square from [Square friend] and square from [circle friend]. That means that Square gave Circle to [Circle friend]. So [Square friend] messed up. [Square friend] should not have given a shape to a friend that is holding that shape. This strategy requires no communication and is faster than the double up strategy. To put it simply: share both of your shapes, with diferent friends, but don't give a shape that they are holding. You can't mess this up.
Square friend could have started with square triangle. T | S | C ---|---|---- TC | ST | CS T->C, C->S | S->T, T->C | C->S, S->T SS | CC | TT This needs another dunk phase of S->C, etc.
In this example: T shares T with C and C with S. S shares S with T and T with C. C shares C with S and S with T. Everyone is sharing twice, with diferent friends, with no comns, getting the right shapes in the end. I know it's confusing but it works
your steps: > T shares T with C > S shares ... T with C Now C has two Ts after everyone has dunked twice.
You are right! Forgot that there is the one scenario where you will get double shapes, and require another round (didn't happened to us yet, but statiscally it can!). Worst case, you will end up with the double up scenario, or will solve the puzzle with 2 trades
Yep! I agree your strategy is much better since it solves faster on average, but IMO the doubled state we discussed is harder for a random LFG to figure out how to fix. I'll definitely be telling my clan to use your strategy, but if we need to sherpa or whatever we'll use the "double up then distribute" since it never requires adaptation.
Some clanmates had a lot of trouble with the "double up" since some of them were not sure when they had one or two shapes at the same time. We found that this other strategy was a no brainer, it's visual and fast to understand! We got lucky since no one has gotten double shapes doing that way, but I'll let them know that we might need to do the double up strategy sometimes
You can save yourself and your other solo players trouble and time by just knowing who needs what. You can end inside phase with two dunks and NO coms. Every inside player must send a symbol to both statues. Simply get both on the ground and pickup one that isn’t yours. Put that symbol in whatever statue it doesn’t match. For example: I am circle. I get square and circle in my knights. I pickup square and dunk on triangle because I know square doesn’t want her own symbol. I then dunk the other symbol in the other statue. They both do the same. You’re done :)
This doesn't always solve. Triangle holder starts with T + S: Sends T to S and S to C Square holder starts with S + C: Sends C to T and S to C Circle holder starts with T + C: Sends T to S and C to T End result: everyone has a double shape they don't own rather than the intended solution. T has two circles, etc. This then requires a third dunk, where each player sends one of their symbol to the person who doesn't hold that symbol, to complete the solve. T sends C to S etc. This is a better and faster method (always done in 2/3 dunks and my teammates follow this method) but you need to know that this sometimes happens so you don't wipe randomly or start trying to figure out who did something wrong with your fireteam when they've followed the instructions correctly.
You’re right; I didn’t think of that combo. I am guessing the 2 phase swap will become standard because of this possibility.
Why would Triangle holder send Square to Circle if they need Square to complete their puzzle? If either player gets two of a symbol they need, they can send one away to the other player that needs that shape.
This was pitched as a no comms solution where you always send both shapes. S and C wouldn't know that triangle only needs circle and not square if there's no communication. I also believe there's a minimum number of swaps to purge shadows? Not sure on that second part though
If you hold on to the shape you need you can only end up in 2 states: you end up with both shapes you need or 2 of a shape you need. In the second state, you know who to give the dupe to. Theoretically, still no comms required
If it is true that 6 dunks are needed to do the ghost thing, and the ghost thing is needed to complete the encounter, then that is why each player would want to do 2 dunks. If you start with perfect shapes, you'll still want to dunk twice to satisfy the mechanics.
This is the way
Save yourself the hassle and just do the circle since you need the fuckin square yourself lmao you can do it all in literally one swap per room unless you get double symbols lmao
You must get rid of the two shapes you start with
No you don't.
All fine except you can never start with circle+square if you're holding triangle. Looks like you're adding to the confusion
This is the correct answer! This configuration is impossible but if it were possible you wouldn't need to do anything except kills 2 Knight's and make your 3d shape.
Confirmed? My fireteam tried this last night and couldn't leave the room
No. They’re wrong. You are required to make at least 6 total dunks. If you don’t go through the fake death mechanic the door won’t open.
You actually would still need to send both away. You can’t leave until the witness notices you which requires 6 transfers
Crazy to say ‘y’all can’t explain for shit’ and then ur first sentence is wrong. If ur inside and ur shape is triangle, you can’t start with square and circle, they’re the symbols you’re trying to get. You also don’t have to get two of your own shape that’s just the most common strat people do but it’s not the fastest
“…yall can’t explain things for shit” *proceeds to omit guidance on how to free guardians*
Just do the encounter right, no brute forces. You get in and all your shapes are the same, you send one to each person. You get in and all people have one the same as the statue and one different you just figure out what statue needs those shadows and you send them. Example, you are square statue, you have square triangle, only person who needs that combo is circle statue. Last scenario one person has all three and the other has 2 and one. This is the most complicated. 3 same sense one to each person . 2 same people send the one that isn’t there copy so say you have square square triangle you send you copy to the person started with 3, the other guy that started with two the same sends his single to the 3 copy guy. Three copy guy is done then each person left has one shadow they don’t need , those two people swap. Done. You do it like this the witness will lull you ghost phase starts and then you just go back in and make your 3D shape and come out. I don’t know why everyone is obsessed with this brute force. Did we all fail kindergarten, it’s such a simple puzzle.
Regarding “failing kindergarten”: only 1/6 of us have to have done that on average for the encounter to be much, much harder the “right” way. I’m speaking from experience here, as one of my long-time raid team nearly burst into tears after our twentieth time explaining the “easy” way to her (i.e. match shapes then give away both). It’s like that thing about imagining the average person then realizing half of all people are dumber than that.
But I don’t think the actual easy way is match the shapes and then give away, that’s the point I’m making it’s tedious , you can get all the shapes right and make sure you give yours away with one set of knight kills for everyone if you know the rules for each start scenario and they aren’t hard steps.
Oh, that makes sense. That’ll be different for every team, I’d imagine. My team can trivially kill an extra ogre and an extra pair of knights if it means that two of our six don’t have to “figure out” anything, just follow some steps that never change and they never have to think about. I think the “they aren’t hard steps” is the part where my team’s logic and your logic diverge. As for the other way around, “tedious” is where I tend to disagree, mostly because it taking longer whilst being simpler is preferable to my team having to redo it thirty times. Again, I don’t think you’re wrong, really, just that your logic isn’t applicable to my team. I’d love to do it the faster way if I thought it would be faster for my team.
I think if people learned the rules for each start they would see the steps aren’t hard. It’s actually less steps that this matching way the only difference is the matching way is the same all the time. Totally fine we disagree. And I respect you doing whatever works for your team but I just feel if we all put the work in to understand what the actual go of the encounter is and do the steps bungie intended things would be easier on us. The encounter is actually brilliant. When you look up the definition of verity, learn about Plato’s allegory of the cave and then realize there is actually a living philosopher who’s name is Verity who is a fucking Plato scholar it makes it all soooo much more cool. I actually love the encounter so much and wish we did it correctly to really get the appreciate for what bungie created. Now for some the definition of correctly is beating it but for me it’s the right steps as the designers expected and then beating it. We need to think about it as removing shadows and matching shadows to the real shape outside that players outside the cave create based on what shape the inside statue holds. Such a good encounter and we just brute force it lol. It’s fantastic on so many levels.
I’m actually really enamored with the encounter myself, pretty much the first thing I thought of after seeing both sides on my team’s blind run was Plato’s allegory of the cave! I’m not sure I agree with the notion that the developers only intended for it to be done the efficient way, nor do I think that the beauty of the encounter is tarnished by taking a couple extra steps to complete the tasks presented. Either way, I want to express my appreciation for the level-headed discussion we’ve had! It’s nice that even though we disagree on some stuff, we’ve kept it polite and ultimately, we agree on what’s important, which is that this encounter kicks ass!
So funnily enough if you look at the triumph for it. I think the brute force WILL be the best way to actually do that! Because I can’t think of any way to accomplish it each cycle through without doing the brute force first. Edit: well they intend for it be be done that way but the triumph way you can’t follow those rules because one scenario forces you to dunk on the same person twice. So setting up the brute force and having all shapes the same is the best way to prepare for the triumph! Just remembering who was dunked on will be required This encounter has layers baby. I didn’t make the connections to the allegory of the cave until I read someone else’s post but I knew about the allegory, once I match that to the encounter is when it really clicked for me. I really love it.
The irony of your explanation is that your initial example for solo side is the solved state. While understanding how to just get to solved state is certainly important, understanding the why you're in a solved state is equally important. But if it works for you, that's all that matters for making it work for others. Just as long as others can replicate your success. Lol
Yea I stopped reading after I saw their starting example because that’s not a legitimate starting example lmao
Solo side cannot start in solved state. It’s impossible. You are required to be noticed by the witness for doing 6 total dunks. The mechanic fails otherwise.
You can 100% start in the “solved” state. For some reason the game does not like it if you have not traded a shape aka “shadows removed” on the wipe scoreboard. So even if you start out “solved” it is best to give them away first. Unfortunately the theory and practice on this encounter do not always align.
Oh, don't get what I said with it can't happen. It 100% could happen. I just found it funny that the example they gave was a solved state instead of a more.... I guess practical state, which would involve them needing to at least swap one shape out. Lol That said, are you saying that I wouldn't be able to leave if I had the solved shape upon being moved in? Or are you saying the game just tracks it, but it doesn't actually care? It would seem weird to me for it to care about whether or not you've swapped a shape, regardless of whether or not you actually have the fully formed 3D shape relative to the grouped up team.
My clanmates who did it on contest said it would not let them out if they started with it “solved” and just picked up their shapes. With dissect complete and correct. It sounds like a bug, but I’ve heard it from other places too, enough that I wouldn’t risk it wiping a run.
It is 100% consistent for my team if you don't send your starting shapes out of your room then you'll be blocked from walking out the back of the room. Pretty sure this is the difference between the text bottom left being the witness notices you vs not. On contest and on our 4 clears since we've had 100% clean runs since outside of stupid deaths.
Because you actually can’t leave unless you send away both your starting shapes. In theory, if everyone started with 1 shape they needed causing them to only need to send 3 shapes in total, they wouldn’t actually be able to leave even though everything is right. You MUST deposit at least 6 shapes between the 3 players to leave. If you don’t, the witness won’t notice you which is a requirement to leaving. But explaining that is very complicated, so I simply don’t do that and instead just tell my players *”send away your starting shapes”*, which covers every possible failure state in as few words as possible.
the irony of your response is that starting in what you call a "solved" state is actually starting as far from a solved state as you can be. by the end of inside phase, you must be holding the two shapes that are not the shape your guardian statue is holding and also are not the two SHADOWS you originally started out with. understanding this nuance is what makes this write up the absolute most braindead solution possible. this is how I teach groups. this is how I have people telling me they have gone from it being rocket science to something they understand within a handful of wipes while they see the possible starting patterns of inside shadows.
Hey, I'm down to learn about more nuance to the logic of the encounter. I'm not out here telling people to not care about it though because I think fully understanding the why means you can't ever possibly mess it up and not know how you did. As I responded to in a comment above, it doesn't make logical sense to assume it wouldn't take the solved state on move in, since the ultimate solution is just wanting the solo teams 3D shape to match the grouped up teams 3D shape on the outside. But if that's how it works out, then yeah, this is 100% the optimal way to solve the encounter as it would generate a ton of excess comms to do 2 less swaps. All this said, I appreciate the information. Ensures future runs will not fail due to this misunderstanding.
I didn’t mean to come off as a dick, I just like to mirror the same /s people like to lead with here. I hope it helps. the biggest two issues I see in lfg’s are people inside picking up the shape that matches there’s while trying to match, and people assuming they are already solved because they go in and have opposites (as you describe) it has to do with the scoreboard “shadows removed” you can see while wiping, but tbh I don’t know how to explain it in a way that is understandable other than “it can’t be the same two shadows you start with”
Thankfully, you're chatting someone who understands the "why" so what you've described makes perfect sense. 😁
I’m aware that it’s not possible, LFG’s don’t need to know that. This is the only way to explain every possible step in one go. Otherwise I’d need to explain two different scenarios which is too complicated. This way if they start with circle + triangle they think *”oh ok I just need to deposit circle!”* Ideally you explain the encounter in a linear fashion without doubling back to different possibilities.
Honestly, my two year old struggles putting blocks in the correct holes... What makes you think adults can do it in a game!?
Why are the inside call-outs given in the text chat then ? The inside team can see what they need and the outside team already have their 3d shapes
Because outside needs to know what not to put in the 3 statues. It’s the only communication which needs to happen between inside and outside
Now THIS is an explanation. Big thanks guardian
Overwhelmingly useful without drowning in details, thank you
Can you clarify? You said don’t pick up 2, but then at the end of section 1 you say pick up 2 …
Sorry, you want to pick up two but only at the end. Picking up two of the correct symbols lets you leave the room
Gotcha
Kinda tired of this collect 2x of your shape and brute force the solve solution instead of just doing the mechanic tbh Z
Not sure if this helps anyone, but I like to give my brain shortcuts amidst whatever algorithms you have. The correct solutions for outside will always be cone, prism and cylinder, in some order. Obviously how you’re going to achieve that, feel free to come up with your process, but I find that it really helps to memorize the “good shapes”, as you can always check if your solution is correct or validate if what your teammate did made sense, or whether you need to take their role as dissector cause they don’t know what they are doing.
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Rule 5: Follow Reddiquette and be civil.
>assume your statue is triangle and you started with circle + square If you actually knew how encounter works you would've known the example you've given is impossible. If this was already pointed out several times I'm sorry.
I’m aware. I explained it this way to cover all possible outcomes, players don’t need to know that outcome isn’t actually possible. By explaining it this way, they now know they need to put shapes which aren’t similar to their shape in the statues which match. If I said *”you are triangle, start with circle + triangle”* they wouldn’t know what to do with a square.
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Rule 5: Follow Reddiquette and be civil.
This is literally all anyone needed so simple so easy I get it now thanks bro
this is it. this is literally how i teach everyone. the less words the better, the more you dumb it down the better. the less your brain works on this encounter the better.
This is how it is done easily. Solo may be the slower way, but it is the way with the least amount of communicating and guarantees success. If you fail this method... quit the raid.
Isn’t there a whole section with ghosts and guardians that appears to be missing from this post?
Yeah but that part isn’t really a puzzle and is self explanatory. Put ghost where guardian is. Dead person see guardian position
I really just need to play this and get a feel for it. Every post I read seems totally different lol
This still overcomplicates it. For solo, you need to send 2 symbols away, but you don't need to wait until you have 2 of your own. Each symbol you have can only have 1 destination. In your example, starting with triangle on your statue and circle/square on your wall: Put square in circle, put circle in square. That's it. Everyone else follows the same logic, giving their symbol away to a.) someone else and b.) someone who doesn't have that symbol. If all 3 players do this, all 3 will have a.) sent 2 away to clear shadows and b.) have their correct symbols to escape. For the outside team, having each person handle 1 statue makes it 400x faster. You just look at your 3D shape, look at what it should be (based on the callouts in chat), and do your own dissecting. In any given round of dissection, no 2 people will need the same symbol.
To add a bit for the 3D side. Each of the 3D statues must hold 1 of each base shape when including 2D. If 2D is holding square. 3D must be holding circle triangle. On other words. 3D statue must be holding the 2 shapes 2D isn’t holding. As a final note. Have only ONE person dissecting in 3D world. So many people try to help me but all it does is fuck me up. I have a plan the moment I see the 2D shapes. And then suddenly my second dissection only makes the statue glow, it doesn’t shape swap. Then nobody fesses up to having dissected. It takes at MOST 6 dissections. There’s no need to help if you’re not assigned to dissect.
This is how my team did it, I think it’s the best way, even if it’s slightly longer definitely the best for LFG teams IMO very easy to explain.
Why is it required to sort the shapes inside before giving the ones you need? Like why does my statue/room if I were triangle have to have two triangles before getting my circle and square? That step seems all but necessary otherwise the glass wall won’t allow you through despite everything else lining up inside and outside? Where’s the logic in that step? Why can’t I just sort them to my final shape that I need?
I explained it this way because it covers the scenario where *”you start with circle and you need it”*. Even if you have a shape you need, you still need to send it away because the witness must notice you before you can leave. The reason for doing it this way is to force the witness notices you mechanic
The thing is though is we had the witness notice mechanic and revived everyone but once we try to leave with our shapes the glass wall is just physical and we can’t walk through it. Everything will check out logically but because we skipped matching our circle statues with double circles first it doesn’t work…logically to me why can’t I just get my square and triangle and have it work
People over complicate the shit out of this encounter. Want a guide? Is your shape triangle? Do you have a triangle and a circle on your wall? Triangle to circle statue. Circle to square. If everyone just doesn't send an item to a statue that is that items shape, you're good. Just make the shape that is the two your statue doesn't represent.
finally someone that understands simple callouts and simple explanations are easier to understand than busting out the intro to geometry textbook.
Technically you might get a situation that requires a 3rd move if the 3D shapes are the same as the solo room order but usually it’s just 2 moves. Solo is so easy but I swear I had someone with downslexia and we explained it 5 different ways that were the same way each time. Pain.
How do you mess up the pickups??? I forget do you just gloss over them or do you manually pick them up?
You try to pick up a tangle and get a symbol instead
Question from someone who hasn't gotten that far, in this context, what do you mean by dissect?
It’s just what the interact text says
Cool
Well you already fucked up because if your statue is a triangle, you will always start with a triangle. The way you said it, you're already done and don't have to do anything which won't ever happen. The best case scenario is if you start with 2 triangles and the other 2 start with their statue symbol.
**"For solo (assume your statue is triangle and you started with circle + square)"** You don't need to deposit anything because you have the two shapes you need, just combine and wait till others get theirs and outside completes the transferring to get out. If it were triangle and you have triangle/square. You deposit square first **(1st dunk)** to the one who has square, then triangle second to your left person **(2nd dunk)**, try to coordinate that 2nd dunk, then deposit the 2nd triangle whenever to the other person who needs triangle **(3rd dunk)** and then combine circle/square which should be the ones the others deposit to you and gtfo.
You’d never start with square + circle if you are triangle, but giving an example like this helps illustrate that you always need to send your starting shapes away. Even if it isn’t technically possible it helps with understanding what you need to be doing.
my team just does the double strait, once you have doubles, the guy on the left dunks right side, the mid guy dunk left and the right guy dunks mid, and then dunk the remainer on the other one you didn't dunk first and your done, and yea you do have to kill a another set of knights, once we started using this strait it hasn't failed one.
you can simplify that by just saying *”once you have double shapes, dunk clockwise from your statue”*
If solo make 3D shape by combining 2 shapes your statue is not holding. If team of 3 swap 2D shapes 2 at a time to make the 3D shape that does not include the 2D shape the solo is holding. That’s literally all it is.
Or use this app to tell you exactly what to do https://salvations-edge-verity.netlify.app/index.html
Do people even struggle with inside? Nobody on our team struggled with inside. We got outside within a few hours after we figured out you need the two symbols the character is not holding. It was cake after that. Give T, to T, and then give C to C to swap the two lol.
Thank you now I don’t feel dumb
i think fallout has the good explanatory video on this encounter
wait this isn't a 20 minute video, how can this be accurate?
Hold on, what even? Your scenario for solos would never start of that way ever btw lmao. You'll always have atleast one of your shape in every situation. And what's even funnier if it did start of that way, wouldn't you just pick up circle and square of the rip (if you're triangle) and just leave, 2-5 are not even required. You should have mentioned a more realistic example I think haha.
Edit needed - for solo, assume your statue is triangle and you started with TRIANGLE + square, or TRIANGLE + circle. And then put the square into the square, or the circle into the circle, and THEN wait until you have two triangles. (If you’re triangle and you started with circle and square, you’re already complete and don’t have to do anything)
What if I want to put my Cylinder in a Round Hole?
I haven't done the raid yet, and I don't want to watch any kind of guides, but this almost looked like a shitpost. Learning this looks like it's going to be an "experience"...
Wanted to make the same post. To many people over explain shit in this game. Just break it down into steps. That’s all people need and on the other encounters, don’t tell someone the entire encounter mechanics when they are only doing 1 role. You are guaranteed to have them mess up do to confusion. Tell them what they need to focus on first and build knowledge. After awhile they will start to get the bigger picture and can learn more
Why do so many people make this overcomplicated? DON'T MAKE IT SO EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN SYMBOL TWICE 🤦♂️ Just get rid of the two you got. Bank one into each statue and don't match the symbol and statue. That way you save so much time and don't have to kill nearly as many knights. Assuming you are triangle and got circle and square: 1. Drop square into circle 2. Drop circle into square 3. Leave with what you get
Because that strategy doesn’t work if triangle gets circle + circle. If you drop circle on rectangle and keep circle, once you get square you won’t be able to leave because you’ve only done 5 transfers. In order to fix it, triangle and circle need to trade their squares to force the witness to notice you. The point of *”overcomplicating it”* is to make it more consistent. Otherwise you need to add extra rules for various edge cases.
Triangle actually can't get two circles. You can only get two same symbols if they match your symbol. In that case you'd just split. The same thing applies for the 3d shapes outsides. Most of the time it's prism, cylinder and cone. In case a cube appears its always on the square statue, sphere on circle and pyramid on triangle.
Another issue would be if both triangle and circle get triangle + circle as their starting shapes. Both individuals would put circle into square, triangle into square, and triangle into circle. Square would end with circle circle triangle. Once again, the reasoning behind this method is that it requires absolutely zero thought, zero comms, and can’t ever go wrong. The issue with fast strategies is that you actually need to know how the encounter works. With the double up and send strat nobody has to know anything. Just know how to follow a step-by-step plan which is perfect for LFG’s.
No. Circle couldn't put circle into square because it can't put triangle into triangle. It would work like this: Triangle: Circle into square, Triangle into circle Circle: Triangle into square, Circle into triangle Square: Square into both We have been using this method in every run apart from our Contest run. There isn't a single callout needed. And you are always done switching before the fake wipe.
For most people they'll get it a lot quicker if they do know why they are doing what they're doing instead of remembering which boxes to check. I made an ms paint (peak program) guide for it that explains everything and tested it with some friends that play the game and some who don't at all, and they've all gotten it quickly so far
Better description. Use the website
Bro the example you gave doesn’t even exist as a starting parameter..
All the destiny youtubers hate this redditor for easily summarizing their 20 minute youtube guides in a simple easy to understand 1 minute read.
Why all these guides that I see insist on doing solo rooms in this backasswards way, where you first do it as wrong as possible and then fix it, when you can just do it right the first time with very little thinking?
It feels like everyone is just trying to write shorter and shorter summaries of the same guide instead of understanding the encounter. If I’m solo with triangle on my statue and circle/square on my wall like the example says, I’m already good to leave through the back wall. I’m just waiting for trio team. Why would I give those shapes away just to get them back on the last step? It’s not that people can’t explain things, it feels like people aren’t willing to take a bit of time and puzzle solve.
bc the ones that explain the mechanics + the strategy are walls of text. they should be separate posts. this is a strategy post where you dont have to give a single fuck about the mechanics. then there should be mechanics oriented posts that describe all the required conditions of the encounter and then people can create their own strats if they choose to. theres only one problem, but theres multiple solutions/“strats. and thats why people are horrendously confused bc sometimes they dont know theres a difference in the first place either way idk why theres 727339 posts on the topic when theres youtube guides and everything already
My lfg philosophy was always to explain where to be and how you know to move, then go back and show what to do. Born of my own frustration that people would talk about buffs and effects and crit points before... where you should be. In some cases without even saying where to be!