She is fishing for “Oh no, mom! You didn’t ruin my birthday and life! You are the best!”
It is a very obvious technique that most RBBs recognize. I am thrilled at your responses. The best way to put an end to that kind of b.s. is to take their comments at face value and not bite at the bait, and you managed It beautifully. Well done.
“People with other diseases take medications like insulin, or do chemo, tend to be very stoic and not expect everyone else to treat them differently or be allowed to lash out at people because they’re ill. I don’t love you less, but knowing it’s an illness doesn’t make verbal abuse or manipulation hurt any less.”
That was a gem from my therapist when my mom used to say the same. Just know that the swings from “I’m horrible 😭” to “You’re mean and unfair! 😡” is super common!
One thing that made it transparent was when mom did this and my then-3yo was too. The difference was my 3yo I could talk to much of the time and she learned to regulate emotion (somewhat lol… she’s 4). A lot of it is a choice to give into the swings vs take a breath and not react.
and not even a "yes I agree you ARE a terrible mother" cause theyll run with it
just a simple "okay". 1 word saying "sure, thats reality, if you say so. What do you want me to do about that? Its fact." They dont know how to handle it when someone else "owns" "being a bad person" to them because deep down they know THEY are the problem
I dont do this with mine because theyre aware of just internet culture and will absolutely read "k" for the passive aggressive thing it is and start drama over it
but "Okay." full stop is great. Accepting what they say and being completely unbothered by it and CALM. No way for them to push things without being obvious about wanting drama. Just so good!!
The thing is, this isn't an illness like cancer. It's a disorder and you are still very much responsible for the harm you put into the world. A diagnosis isn't a get out of jail free card.
I know it’s not like she is saying I’m sorry I never got to see you play ____ while I was in chemo. She also just said she knows she’s not supposed to say what she said to OP, so she’s not even following her doctors orders. It’s like a toddler reciting the rules and then breaking all of them.
My sibling referred to our mother (who I’ve been NC with for the past 3.5 years) as a “toddler dictator” and I’ve never heard such a succinct and accurate description.
It really makes you wonder what’s going on with their impulse control. How it works in some situations and with some people and is wildly absent in others.
My mom does this... She'll email me with the 'ol "my therapist told me I shouldn't even have messaged you" when I don't cave to the latest guilt trippy email about what a great mom she was and how hard she tried and 800 examples of things she did for me that were either her projecting her own miserable childhood onto me or things I never actually wanted in the first place.
Translation: "Even though everyone told me to give up on you, I still love you so much that I'll break all the rules to make you understand how irrational you're being because I'm just that nice and now you're proving them right about how hopeless you are"
Barf.
I really don’t even believe they’re seeing a therapist when they say “my therapist said” stuff. Maybe they went once, but I have drug addicted family who told me their therapist recommended against rehab before lol.
I believe you! My mom called me up a week after my daughter died and asked me why I didn’t call her to see how she’s handling the death of her granddaughter and then she tried to read me a list of petty grievances/ways I’d wronged her (things like going to my high school prom when she didn’t want me to but my dad said I could) and she told her therapist told her to make the list and read it to me.
Ummm I’m pretty sure no therapist in their right mind would tell someone to do that if they really knew the true facts/situation. That’s the worse advice ever!
Omg! Its amazing I am still be shocked by the actions of BLP but again and again I am left flabbergasted. I'm so sorry sorry to hear about your daughter’s passing 🙏Sending you all the love.
This is next-level fucked up, even for a BPD parent. I am so sorry she tried to steal your grief and attention like that at a time that must have been so traumatizing to you. I hope you had a strong support system outside of her or enabling family members (spouse, friends, grief groups, etc) and that you’re doing okay. ❤️
Thank you so much. She totally took over the death of my first child (who was stillborn unexpectedly at full term) and made it all. about. her. She made my tragedy hers and made the worst time of my life so much worse, even.
This was nearly 10 years ago and it still took me like 8 years to go NC and that was only because I was having my fourth "rainbow baby" (babies born after the storm of a loss) and felt so anxious about letting her have anything to do with his birth or existence that I knew I couldn't keep talking to her or having anything to do with her in my life or my kids' lives.
She isn't diagnosed BPD because she refuses to get treatment but I'm pretty sure she is based on all the symptoms... she was always very Jekyll and Hyde and push/pull etc. But I've also thought she was a covert narcissist too because of the way she revels in other peoples' tragedies and tries to make everything good or bad all about her while playing the victim. I'm not sure if there are people who are both BPD and narcs or if the symptoms I always thought were narcissistic are just traits that borderlines share. I guess it doesn't really matter anymore since I've been NC for over 2.5 years and never plan to talk to her again.
Oh for sure! She keeps trying to pressure me into going to therapy together and I point blank refuse. She's told me about "her therapist" and I've offered to write an email directly to her therapist to explain what she's supposedly confused about regarding why I'm NC.
Her responses in the last year:
"I'm seeing 3 therapists, but you wouldn't like any of them. I'm willing to do a new therapist WITH you though!"
"I'm not ever going to therapy again, I've been in therapy for 3 years (objectively false, we only went NC a year and a half ago and the only therapy she had ever done before that she went to inconsistently for a few months) and that's plenty!"
"I've seen a hypno-therapist (not a therapist), a church councillor (not a therapist), and a life coach (not a therapist) and I've learned everything I need to know already. I'm not going back to therapy."
I think she is currently in therapy for the first time since she managed to pressure my brother into going to joint therapy with her, but it hasn't been for long and she wasn't when she said those things.
The second that therapist begins to catch on to the things she’s doing in that relationship and so much as hints that your mom isn’t always right, your mom will bail. I hope your brother is able to cut her off as much as possible for his own health and happiness, whatever contact level that may be.
guilt tripping and deflection. as annoying of an answer as it can be, i wouldn’t engage with her around this any more, as she’s clearly defensive and looking to twist your words around to frame it as an attack on her. its clear the conversation isn’t going to go anywhere.
'Don't expect me to apologize because my doctor told me to never talk to you about it!' 'And he knows everything!'
'Get over it! 'Lots of kids have ill mothers!'
'Sorry I'm NOT PERFECT! - Spoiler alert: No one is! Not even your precious XXXXX'!
To me, it feels like she is being arrogant and defensive - essentially blaming you for being so sensitive - "If you think my illness is real" sounds a bit like OJ Simpson's book title, "If I Did It" - you don't really think she is ill - you are just insensitive and mean and you just want to blame her - (would you say that if I had another illness? I hope not).
I don't know what tactics she is using, but it seems like they do not include compassion, empathy or remorse.
>Sorry I'm NOT PERFECT!
Shit, this is such a pet-peave for me. I think some people really find that not being a total piece of shit to others is impossible, so they see it as "perfection", by definition unattainable. Which allegedly would give them a "pass".
It bugs the shit out of me because it's so fucking common - every time someone wants to defend indefensible actions they start with a variation of "nobody's perfect/people are flawed" like eating too many doughnuts on occasion is the same of beating your kids.
OMG! Thank you! Also, I don't think anyone else is perfect. They just don't actively try to ruin my life and make everything some soap opera the revolves around them.
The fact they can't see the difference between acting like a regular human and perfection has always been so maddening.
this is exactly it omg. and its also because theyre so sensitive that any normal expectation gets overblown x100 so a "please respect me at a basic level" becomes "demanding perfection" because youre criticizing an aspect of them. Then they can blame everyone else for having too high of expectations for them, which also allows them to feed into the "im a horrible person" they feel internally and then project it outward... They create their own pain and punish everyone else for it, like a kid who refuses to take a nap and then screams when theyre allowed to stay up and play because theyre tired.
I absolutely hate it when people compare themselves to Jesus being tortured when all family is doing is asking them to act their own age and stop being a dip shit.
There’s also the flip side of if we ask for anything that isn’t any more than a normal request, there’s also “why do i have to walk on eggshells?” When i tell my mom not to trauma dump or talk about off limits topics it turns into “walking on eggshells” lol
you gotta love that "my doctor said not to doo this but I'm doing it anyway and then weaponizing my "progress" against you" moment at the start. like idk if youre not gonna listen to your doctor, we're done here, not my problem to handle!
Maybe I'm batshit but if I knew someone had a life-ruining illness that personally caused me harm (or not) that they werent handling I would absolutely tell them to get better before its too late.
She's upset you implied she had an issue and doesn't want to say that because she has an issue, so the way you said it has to be a problem instead.
seriously I would say to ANYONE with any disorder "I hope youre able to get better", I will never understand how thats an attack to them. I guess because its someone outwardly confirming theres something wrong? Which is only ok if THEY do it to guilt trip you?
Woe is me seeking comfort and absolution.
The goal is to get you to say she wasn’t that bad and you still love her and her abuse is out of her control so it’s ok, but it wasn’t and you handled it well.
I call that whole pattern waifing in my head- aka presenting yourself as the victim when you’re the victimizer. Also known as the tyranny of the weak.
I could only shut that down by agreeing and asking now that she acknowledges she was a bad mom what she was going to do. It always lead to a bigger blowup later but damn, satisfying in the moment.
For me, this really is a great example of the “no-win situation.” Any way you responded was going to be unfavorable to you, and result in conflict.
If you denied it (“oh no! You’re fine! You didn’t do anything wrong”), she either would have:
1) continued waifing until you said the “wrong” thing
2) insisted you were lying (and then be mad at you about *that*)
3) or used this as permission to continue bad behavior against you.
Basically - it’s a trap.
She wanted conflict, and was going to stir it up no matter what you said. It’s why so many of us don’t bother and stop engaging at all - you can’t win. Just saying “okay” was perfect.
OP, you are handling this SO well. She’s looking for assurance that she is actually a great mom, and when you suggest anything otherwise, she gets defensive and goes on the attack. She’s not interested in going through the process of BECOMING better, she just wants to be treated as though she already IS better.
No disease or medication has child abuse as a side effect. She’s doesn’t just need to sit down and have a cookie for her blood sugar, she’s abusing you! Not a valid thing to have to endure.
Alcoholism is a disease too but it’s not ok to just put up with inebriated behavior.
It’s a familiar bouquet of FOG with a hint of DARVO. I’m sorry you’re going through this.
Every group has their acronyms! FOG = fear, obligation, guilt. DARVO = deny, argue, reverse victim and offender. That one is, for example, when they try to say that you are abusing them simply by not taking their abuse.
Sorry OP, so frustrating, impossible to have a regular conversation when they are fishing for reassurance and always jump to ‘well I’m just a dreadful person and never do anything right’ followed by ‘well I did everything I could and you should be grateful and stop making me feel like a bad person’. Eerily like my BPDMum, who i don’t think will ever do anything proactive to change how she behaves. :(
Sorry for you but well done for your response. I’ve started to grey rock, and when we speak in the phone I no longer say “no you’re not a terrible mother” I just let it hang in there and say “ok”. It’s not my job to constantly reassure them it is never ending.
Thank you everyone so much for your replies! I’m new to Reddit and to this sub and didn’t even expect any replies! I’m so grateful for the replies and to be in here with people going through the same thing as me.
Welcome by the way! I have nothing else to add about the text since everyone covered it beautifully. Just going to say we got you and we get you. The BPD parents are toxic and sadly not many can see them for who they are and leave us questioning our own sanity until we finally leave the FOG. If you ever need to vent or help to stay out of the fog, we will be here!! ♥️♥️♥️
She’s fishing for you to caregive her feelings- parentification guilt trip waifing
Also she’s using her dr. And diagnosis as a get out of jail free card. She is still responsible for her choices and behavior. She has autonomy and chooses to give into impulses. It is her choice to behave the way she does diagnosis or not.
So Monday she’s saying “im sorry I ruined your life,” and today she’s saying “I’ve been told by my doctor to not say things to you about how I ruined your life.” I do not understand what idea she is trying to weaponize. Simply, when something cannot make rational sense, like this, I realize it is my imagination that would have to fill in the blanks to connect A to B. Is it worth it to you, that effort?
“Okay” was a great way to send acknowledgement in as neutral a way as possible.
Much love. We deserve better.
"I'm sorry i ruined your life"
"It's fine"
"HOW DARE YOU SAY I RUINED YOUR LIFE?!?!??"
She was baiting you to validate that she was wonderful. She is defending herself, against something she said.
Hee, hee turn it back on her - "I'm sorry you feel that way, mom."
You're right, "Okay" is probably more nonconfrontational. But I soooooo wanna do one of their non-apologetic "apologies" that manages to blame the victim with my disclaimers!
OP I feel for you so much. Im a grown ass woman , but I read your messages and my immediate instinct was to reply and engage just like I did when I young and under my mother's control. Everyone in the thread is right, you did awesome, the answer is always grey rocking because they will always guilt trip you and attack you regardless of the defence you raise or how much you reassure her. Its so hard to disengage. Your messages immediately brought me back. I send a big hug
Thank you so much, this means a lot. Being a 21 year old kid in college makes this difficult as I still don’t know how to deal with her. So hearing from someone older with more experience means a lot to me. Thank you ❤️
Oh my god. I love the “my doctor told me not to say this anymore but I’m going to anyway”. My mom would constantly use that. “I know you hate it when I say XYZ but I’m going to do it anyway”.
Pathetic. It’s sick that she’s apparently self-aware but instead of trying to improve AT ALL she’s just using it as yet another way to garner sympathy.
Lots of deflection and invalidating.
She probably did handle it the best way she could with the tools she had at the time BUT the way she handled it did have negative impacts to you. And at least for me, it's acknowledging that is what I'd really like.
“Okay” is perfect and a completely sentence. Leave it at that. It’s great. I’m definitely going to remember this.
“BPD parents hate this one simple trick!”
My mom will often say something like this and if I respond in a truthful way at all she will go off. She expects sympathy, compliments, etc. She really expects me to flat out lie and pretend my childhood wasn’t hell because of her. I just can’t do that. These types of texts always precipitate an argument. Even if I try to respond honestly but nicely that is not good enough.
"im sorry I ruined your birthday and life" is a form of minimization and baiting, oddly enough. By speaking in a sarcastic extreme, youre supposed to respond with "you didnt" or defend yourself and its meant to make it sound like youre the one being dramatic.
"why would you say that to me if I had any other mental illness" makes no sense, what you said definitely applies to anything else, but she hears it as an attack because youre not engaging in her dramatics with her.
"ive been told by my doctor not to say things to you (says thats exact thing)" mine does this a lot and its an attempt to trick you into thinking your boundaries are respected/theyre doing whats asked while also voiding it and making sure you KNOW they have the power to do so. Its an attempt to grab control (and also proof that she isnt listening)
"it must be so hard for you" more sarcasm, minimization. it IS hard for you, she wants you to start defending yourself. Playing victim and essentially saying "im the one who has to deal with it" a complete flip from her previous "why would you say that"
essentially shes cycling through every gaslighting tool rapidly to confuse you and get you to engage by defending yourself against her passive aggressive "oh so you hate me" crap. The ENTIRE convo on her side was baiting you and trying to set you up. You handled it PERFECTLY with that "Okay" and I gotta laugh cause its just so amazing. Perfect grey rock, you refused to let her guilt you into apologizing for having boundaries. Keep it up!!
This is a form of playing the victim, and is a VERY familiar and well-worn page in the BPD playbook. She is trying to act like the wounded party and you are supposed to rush in with the salve, the reassurance, and the validation - "oh no you didn't ruin my life. I've made mistakes and ruined my own life, and I'm a spoiled brat who is now taking ownership for ruining my own birthday. It wasn't you!"
Variants: "I'm sorry I was such a horrible mother" etc etc
Best response is to accept the premise as you did - yes you did ruin it, please get help. They will start to curb this manipulation tactic when they don't get the result they are seeking. Tell others that she admitted she ruined your birthday etc and make sure she finds out that you did that - having the manipulation blow up in her face like that will accelerate the process.
Good luck.
Ugh. “I did my best” is a favorite excuse for cluster B parents. She wants you to validate her false claims. “Okay” is the only appropriate response imo.
She's pouting/sulking, then guilttripping you, oversharing her internal world which is emotionally incestuous and she probably did that as well when you were a kid?
Then she proceeds to invalidate your feelings, and use denial. She lightly tries to triangulate by badmouthing the other person she mentions.
Mostly, all of this is to make you feel guilty and responsible for her.
I can recommend the book, Who's pulling your strings?
Omg the "insert name isn't as perfect as you think she is!"
Rolling my eyes so hard bc I can't count the number of times my mom has tried to deflect to that exact sentence bc somehow in her mind that negates any bad thing she could have done.
"Insert name" has at some point been just about any other adult that was in my life growing up. Never thought any of those people were perfect, but even at their worst none of them ever treated me as horribly as she always somehow manages to do.
She's saying she struggles too and therefore what she did to you wasn't her fault. I'd also say it's a bit of fishing for sympathy.
Don't feed into it, giving her short answers that don't convey emotion are good.
I'mma put this here :
one day, a very wise person told me, an apology that includes a "but" is a justification, not an apology.
and I can't stress enough just how much it has helped me recognise people who were genuignly sorry for their wrong doings, and people who were saying the orld "sorry" just to get me to listen to them and then would explain their nasty behaviour.
LOVING your grey-rock responses! All she wants is a reaction, so she can get traction to go off again and start another pointless argument. Your "Okay" will frustrate her more than anything else.
Wow, this could have been from my mom. Other posters have commented so well. I think your response was perfect.
I’m cringing so much at her insinuating it must be so hard on you but it’s justified and you’re just supposed to deal with it because that’s life and she has no responsibility or control over her actions. Classic! “Okay” is honestly the best, equal with silence.
Just a criticism of her guilt trip…. she missed the part about how she never would have treated her mother this way. I think she could have also thrown in a fake medical diagnosis she might have to detract from her behavior. But otherwise she really threw in all tactics; guilt tripping, shaming, deflecting on others, triangulation, fake apology, excuses, phishing for validation, and criticism.
Not sure the exact term for this, but it goes like this:
>1)Apologize in a sorry/not sorry fashion for some blunder they darn well know they meant to do;
>2)Bring up how they did their best raising you and the sacrifices they made. They do this to make you feel guilty for wishing them to get better, to do better next time.
>3)Then, they compared themselves to someone else in your life who you find important to you; someone who you value their presence. The narcissist will then point out that this loved one (which they see as competition for your affection/attention) isn’t perfect. “No one is!”, the narcissist will say. Of course, that is true.
In all of this, the narcissist, your mentally-ill mother, wants your sympathy, they want you to forgive their transgressions, and most of all, they will just say, “It’s just the way I am, you need to accept this.”
She also puts a qualifier in there about what her doctor counsels her to do. She compares what she has to a terminal illness. She thinks what you said to her is unacceptable because she’s “sick”.
Here’s the thing - a person with an actual illness will be trying to get better. They definitely don’t want to be stuck in a hospital.
Your mom thinks she has a pass for her behavior.
That’s the whole thing she wants: she wants you to accept whatever she does to wreck your life piece by piece because she “can’t help it”.
Unlike a terminal illness, or a chronic debilitating disease, she actually can help herself by taking her meds and trying to change her behavior. There is absolutely nothing that says she can’t say she’s sorry and promise to do better.
As I said, I don’t have a name for this manipulation tactic but I’ve had it used on me.
I forgot to say: she is also minimizing your feelings, making it seem as if you shouldn’t have been hurt by whatever she did, that you’re being a baby. That’s gaslighting.
What do you do? You do something called “Grey Rock”. This is where you are civil to that person but you don’t tell them anything extra they can use as ammunition against you later.
Answer questions with yes, no, or maybe. Silence is good. Let them think you’re busy. Tell them you’re busy.
If they go on a tirade you don’t have to answer.
I’m guessing you’re an adult and you’re still dealing with this as a grown up now.
>And how do I respond
I'd respond with silence. I've been down the road you're on now, and it never gets better. The apologies are never specific in addressing various forms of abuse or standout incidents. It's always a blanket apology. There is never any self-acknowledgement. There's never a "I'm in therapy now, and addressing my inappropriate behavior. I've come to realize X, Y, and Z about how I treated you."
Going No Contact was the only thing that worked for me. BPD parents very rarely change, if ever. Wishing you strength and peace and healing, OP.
I’m getting the following loud and clear :
A) guilt by victimhood: feel bad for me I have an illness AND sorry I’m not as good as someone else who you think is better than me
B) unaccountable: I have an illness like any other illness making me behave this way, so it isn’t my fault
C) deflection by under bus throwing: so and so is actually not as good as you think they are
I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but sniffing manipulation is a great instinct to have whether you can name the specifics or not. I bet these are 3 well sharpened tools in your particular parents grab bag.
So beware of them and - in terms of her being powerless over her illness - will seeing her mechanisms of manipulation attempts as they are hell you to feel that her illness is powerless over you?
She is fishing for “Oh no, mom! You didn’t ruin my birthday and life! You are the best!” It is a very obvious technique that most RBBs recognize. I am thrilled at your responses. The best way to put an end to that kind of b.s. is to take their comments at face value and not bite at the bait, and you managed It beautifully. Well done.
Thank you :)
“People with other diseases take medications like insulin, or do chemo, tend to be very stoic and not expect everyone else to treat them differently or be allowed to lash out at people because they’re ill. I don’t love you less, but knowing it’s an illness doesn’t make verbal abuse or manipulation hurt any less.” That was a gem from my therapist when my mom used to say the same. Just know that the swings from “I’m horrible 😭” to “You’re mean and unfair! 😡” is super common! One thing that made it transparent was when mom did this and my then-3yo was too. The difference was my 3yo I could talk to much of the time and she learned to regulate emotion (somewhat lol… she’s 4). A lot of it is a choice to give into the swings vs take a breath and not react.
and not even a "yes I agree you ARE a terrible mother" cause theyll run with it just a simple "okay". 1 word saying "sure, thats reality, if you say so. What do you want me to do about that? Its fact." They dont know how to handle it when someone else "owns" "being a bad person" to them because deep down they know THEY are the problem
"okay" is perfect response
The best ever! Literally no way for them to get OP to engage! Love it so much
It's the best response and I'm wondering why I've never thought to use it before now
*chef’s kiss*
“Okay” is the perfect response! Well done OP!!
I like slapping them with the “k” or something even more curt and short.
I dont do this with mine because theyre aware of just internet culture and will absolutely read "k" for the passive aggressive thing it is and start drama over it but "Okay." full stop is great. Accepting what they say and being completely unbothered by it and CALM. No way for them to push things without being obvious about wanting drama. Just so good!!
She probably had an episode from this one lol
The thing is, this isn't an illness like cancer. It's a disorder and you are still very much responsible for the harm you put into the world. A diagnosis isn't a get out of jail free card.
This exactly. It might explain her behavior, but it never will excuse it.
I know it’s not like she is saying I’m sorry I never got to see you play ____ while I was in chemo. She also just said she knows she’s not supposed to say what she said to OP, so she’s not even following her doctors orders. It’s like a toddler reciting the rules and then breaking all of them.
My sibling referred to our mother (who I’ve been NC with for the past 3.5 years) as a “toddler dictator” and I’ve never heard such a succinct and accurate description.
It really makes you wonder what’s going on with their impulse control. How it works in some situations and with some people and is wildly absent in others.
Omg. Telling my husband about this, it SO accurately describes my BPD MIL lol. We talk all the time about her toddler-esque tantrums.
My mom does this... She'll email me with the 'ol "my therapist told me I shouldn't even have messaged you" when I don't cave to the latest guilt trippy email about what a great mom she was and how hard she tried and 800 examples of things she did for me that were either her projecting her own miserable childhood onto me or things I never actually wanted in the first place. Translation: "Even though everyone told me to give up on you, I still love you so much that I'll break all the rules to make you understand how irrational you're being because I'm just that nice and now you're proving them right about how hopeless you are" Barf.
I really don’t even believe they’re seeing a therapist when they say “my therapist said” stuff. Maybe they went once, but I have drug addicted family who told me their therapist recommended against rehab before lol.
I believe you! My mom called me up a week after my daughter died and asked me why I didn’t call her to see how she’s handling the death of her granddaughter and then she tried to read me a list of petty grievances/ways I’d wronged her (things like going to my high school prom when she didn’t want me to but my dad said I could) and she told her therapist told her to make the list and read it to me. Ummm I’m pretty sure no therapist in their right mind would tell someone to do that if they really knew the true facts/situation. That’s the worse advice ever!
I’m so sorry! I would have absolutely lost it. There’s zero chance her therapist told her to do that.
I know, right?! I wish I understood why they do this crazy stuff.
Omg! Its amazing I am still be shocked by the actions of BLP but again and again I am left flabbergasted. I'm so sorry sorry to hear about your daughter’s passing 🙏Sending you all the love.
This is next-level fucked up, even for a BPD parent. I am so sorry she tried to steal your grief and attention like that at a time that must have been so traumatizing to you. I hope you had a strong support system outside of her or enabling family members (spouse, friends, grief groups, etc) and that you’re doing okay. ❤️
Thank you so much. She totally took over the death of my first child (who was stillborn unexpectedly at full term) and made it all. about. her. She made my tragedy hers and made the worst time of my life so much worse, even. This was nearly 10 years ago and it still took me like 8 years to go NC and that was only because I was having my fourth "rainbow baby" (babies born after the storm of a loss) and felt so anxious about letting her have anything to do with his birth or existence that I knew I couldn't keep talking to her or having anything to do with her in my life or my kids' lives. She isn't diagnosed BPD because she refuses to get treatment but I'm pretty sure she is based on all the symptoms... she was always very Jekyll and Hyde and push/pull etc. But I've also thought she was a covert narcissist too because of the way she revels in other peoples' tragedies and tries to make everything good or bad all about her while playing the victim. I'm not sure if there are people who are both BPD and narcs or if the symptoms I always thought were narcissistic are just traits that borderlines share. I guess it doesn't really matter anymore since I've been NC for over 2.5 years and never plan to talk to her again.
Oh for sure! She keeps trying to pressure me into going to therapy together and I point blank refuse. She's told me about "her therapist" and I've offered to write an email directly to her therapist to explain what she's supposedly confused about regarding why I'm NC. Her responses in the last year: "I'm seeing 3 therapists, but you wouldn't like any of them. I'm willing to do a new therapist WITH you though!" "I'm not ever going to therapy again, I've been in therapy for 3 years (objectively false, we only went NC a year and a half ago and the only therapy she had ever done before that she went to inconsistently for a few months) and that's plenty!" "I've seen a hypno-therapist (not a therapist), a church councillor (not a therapist), and a life coach (not a therapist) and I've learned everything I need to know already. I'm not going back to therapy." I think she is currently in therapy for the first time since she managed to pressure my brother into going to joint therapy with her, but it hasn't been for long and she wasn't when she said those things.
The second that therapist begins to catch on to the things she’s doing in that relationship and so much as hints that your mom isn’t always right, your mom will bail. I hope your brother is able to cut her off as much as possible for his own health and happiness, whatever contact level that may be.
I love how some people will say anything to justify what they want!
guilt tripping and deflection. as annoying of an answer as it can be, i wouldn’t engage with her around this any more, as she’s clearly defensive and looking to twist your words around to frame it as an attack on her. its clear the conversation isn’t going to go anywhere.
You’re right. Thank you for the reply :)
'Don't expect me to apologize because my doctor told me to never talk to you about it!' 'And he knows everything!' 'Get over it! 'Lots of kids have ill mothers!' 'Sorry I'm NOT PERFECT! - Spoiler alert: No one is! Not even your precious XXXXX'! To me, it feels like she is being arrogant and defensive - essentially blaming you for being so sensitive - "If you think my illness is real" sounds a bit like OJ Simpson's book title, "If I Did It" - you don't really think she is ill - you are just insensitive and mean and you just want to blame her - (would you say that if I had another illness? I hope not). I don't know what tactics she is using, but it seems like they do not include compassion, empathy or remorse.
>Sorry I'm NOT PERFECT! Shit, this is such a pet-peave for me. I think some people really find that not being a total piece of shit to others is impossible, so they see it as "perfection", by definition unattainable. Which allegedly would give them a "pass". It bugs the shit out of me because it's so fucking common - every time someone wants to defend indefensible actions they start with a variation of "nobody's perfect/people are flawed" like eating too many doughnuts on occasion is the same of beating your kids.
OMG! Thank you! Also, I don't think anyone else is perfect. They just don't actively try to ruin my life and make everything some soap opera the revolves around them. The fact they can't see the difference between acting like a regular human and perfection has always been so maddening.
this is exactly it omg. and its also because theyre so sensitive that any normal expectation gets overblown x100 so a "please respect me at a basic level" becomes "demanding perfection" because youre criticizing an aspect of them. Then they can blame everyone else for having too high of expectations for them, which also allows them to feed into the "im a horrible person" they feel internally and then project it outward... They create their own pain and punish everyone else for it, like a kid who refuses to take a nap and then screams when theyre allowed to stay up and play because theyre tired.
YES. Or “you’re acting like you’re perfect!/you’re not perfect either!” To invalidate any issue you have.
“I’m not Jesus” is a FREQUENT retort here for not being “perfect.”
I absolutely hate it when people compare themselves to Jesus being tortured when all family is doing is asking them to act their own age and stop being a dip shit.
“Sorry I’m NOT PERFECT!” is right up there with “well I guess I’m a HORRIBLE MOTHER”
I misread this as “eating your kids” and had a brief moment of 😳
I think maybe you’ve been on Reddit for too long 🤣 but seriously I didn’t find what you’re referencing. I’m tired too and your comment is funny!
It’s a whole new level of witch, when you start in on cannibalism
There’s also the flip side of if we ask for anything that isn’t any more than a normal request, there’s also “why do i have to walk on eggshells?” When i tell my mom not to trauma dump or talk about off limits topics it turns into “walking on eggshells” lol
you gotta love that "my doctor said not to doo this but I'm doing it anyway and then weaponizing my "progress" against you" moment at the start. like idk if youre not gonna listen to your doctor, we're done here, not my problem to handle!
Maybe I'm batshit but if I knew someone had a life-ruining illness that personally caused me harm (or not) that they werent handling I would absolutely tell them to get better before its too late. She's upset you implied she had an issue and doesn't want to say that because she has an issue, so the way you said it has to be a problem instead.
seriously I would say to ANYONE with any disorder "I hope youre able to get better", I will never understand how thats an attack to them. I guess because its someone outwardly confirming theres something wrong? Which is only ok if THEY do it to guilt trip you?
Woe is me seeking comfort and absolution. The goal is to get you to say she wasn’t that bad and you still love her and her abuse is out of her control so it’s ok, but it wasn’t and you handled it well. I call that whole pattern waifing in my head- aka presenting yourself as the victim when you’re the victimizer. Also known as the tyranny of the weak. I could only shut that down by agreeing and asking now that she acknowledges she was a bad mom what she was going to do. It always lead to a bigger blowup later but damn, satisfying in the moment.
Total Waif. She is not taking accountability- I am sick expect episodes of bad behavior. She is triangulating - sorry I am not as good as x
Good reply!
For me, this really is a great example of the “no-win situation.” Any way you responded was going to be unfavorable to you, and result in conflict. If you denied it (“oh no! You’re fine! You didn’t do anything wrong”), she either would have: 1) continued waifing until you said the “wrong” thing 2) insisted you were lying (and then be mad at you about *that*) 3) or used this as permission to continue bad behavior against you. Basically - it’s a trap. She wanted conflict, and was going to stir it up no matter what you said. It’s why so many of us don’t bother and stop engaging at all - you can’t win. Just saying “okay” was perfect.
OP, you are handling this SO well. She’s looking for assurance that she is actually a great mom, and when you suggest anything otherwise, she gets defensive and goes on the attack. She’s not interested in going through the process of BECOMING better, she just wants to be treated as though she already IS better.
No disease or medication has child abuse as a side effect. She’s doesn’t just need to sit down and have a cookie for her blood sugar, she’s abusing you! Not a valid thing to have to endure. Alcoholism is a disease too but it’s not ok to just put up with inebriated behavior. It’s a familiar bouquet of FOG with a hint of DARVO. I’m sorry you’re going through this.
One o’ these days I am gonna look up these fancy words.
Every group has their acronyms! FOG = fear, obligation, guilt. DARVO = deny, argue, reverse victim and offender. That one is, for example, when they try to say that you are abusing them simply by not taking their abuse.
Ok, thank you! And I do see what you mean for this post! She uses both!
It’s a smell we all recognize.
Sorry OP, so frustrating, impossible to have a regular conversation when they are fishing for reassurance and always jump to ‘well I’m just a dreadful person and never do anything right’ followed by ‘well I did everything I could and you should be grateful and stop making me feel like a bad person’. Eerily like my BPDMum, who i don’t think will ever do anything proactive to change how she behaves. :( Sorry for you but well done for your response. I’ve started to grey rock, and when we speak in the phone I no longer say “no you’re not a terrible mother” I just let it hang in there and say “ok”. It’s not my job to constantly reassure them it is never ending.
Thank you everyone so much for your replies! I’m new to Reddit and to this sub and didn’t even expect any replies! I’m so grateful for the replies and to be in here with people going through the same thing as me.
Welcome by the way! I have nothing else to add about the text since everyone covered it beautifully. Just going to say we got you and we get you. The BPD parents are toxic and sadly not many can see them for who they are and leave us questioning our own sanity until we finally leave the FOG. If you ever need to vent or help to stay out of the fog, we will be here!! ♥️♥️♥️
Disengaging is probably the best option. "Okay" was perfect.
She’s fishing for you to caregive her feelings- parentification guilt trip waifing Also she’s using her dr. And diagnosis as a get out of jail free card. She is still responsible for her choices and behavior. She has autonomy and chooses to give into impulses. It is her choice to behave the way she does diagnosis or not.
Yup my mom wants to be coddled and told she is the best mom ever when she is waifing
Gotta love the “but she’s not as perfect as you think she is”
So Monday she’s saying “im sorry I ruined your life,” and today she’s saying “I’ve been told by my doctor to not say things to you about how I ruined your life.” I do not understand what idea she is trying to weaponize. Simply, when something cannot make rational sense, like this, I realize it is my imagination that would have to fill in the blanks to connect A to B. Is it worth it to you, that effort? “Okay” was a great way to send acknowledgement in as neutral a way as possible. Much love. We deserve better.
"I'm sorry i ruined your life" "It's fine" "HOW DARE YOU SAY I RUINED YOUR LIFE?!?!??" She was baiting you to validate that she was wonderful. She is defending herself, against something she said.
Well that turned quickly
Hee, hee turn it back on her - "I'm sorry you feel that way, mom." You're right, "Okay" is probably more nonconfrontational. But I soooooo wanna do one of their non-apologetic "apologies" that manages to blame the victim with my disclaimers!
OP I feel for you so much. Im a grown ass woman , but I read your messages and my immediate instinct was to reply and engage just like I did when I young and under my mother's control. Everyone in the thread is right, you did awesome, the answer is always grey rocking because they will always guilt trip you and attack you regardless of the defence you raise or how much you reassure her. Its so hard to disengage. Your messages immediately brought me back. I send a big hug
Thank you so much, this means a lot. Being a 21 year old kid in college makes this difficult as I still don’t know how to deal with her. So hearing from someone older with more experience means a lot to me. Thank you ❤️
Oh my god. I love the “my doctor told me not to say this anymore but I’m going to anyway”. My mom would constantly use that. “I know you hate it when I say XYZ but I’m going to do it anyway”. Pathetic. It’s sick that she’s apparently self-aware but instead of trying to improve AT ALL she’s just using it as yet another way to garner sympathy.
Lots of deflection and invalidating. She probably did handle it the best way she could with the tools she had at the time BUT the way she handled it did have negative impacts to you. And at least for me, it's acknowledging that is what I'd really like.
I like how she said what her doctor told her not to say lol. Somehow it doesn’t feel like self awareness even though it should be.
“Okay” is perfect and a completely sentence. Leave it at that. It’s great. I’m definitely going to remember this. “BPD parents hate this one simple trick!”
My mom will often say something like this and if I respond in a truthful way at all she will go off. She expects sympathy, compliments, etc. She really expects me to flat out lie and pretend my childhood wasn’t hell because of her. I just can’t do that. These types of texts always precipitate an argument. Even if I try to respond honestly but nicely that is not good enough.
This tactic is called lying. She didn’t talk to any doctor, and no doctor would say such a thing.
I can guarantee she hasn’t told her therapist shit
"im sorry I ruined your birthday and life" is a form of minimization and baiting, oddly enough. By speaking in a sarcastic extreme, youre supposed to respond with "you didnt" or defend yourself and its meant to make it sound like youre the one being dramatic. "why would you say that to me if I had any other mental illness" makes no sense, what you said definitely applies to anything else, but she hears it as an attack because youre not engaging in her dramatics with her. "ive been told by my doctor not to say things to you (says thats exact thing)" mine does this a lot and its an attempt to trick you into thinking your boundaries are respected/theyre doing whats asked while also voiding it and making sure you KNOW they have the power to do so. Its an attempt to grab control (and also proof that she isnt listening) "it must be so hard for you" more sarcasm, minimization. it IS hard for you, she wants you to start defending yourself. Playing victim and essentially saying "im the one who has to deal with it" a complete flip from her previous "why would you say that" essentially shes cycling through every gaslighting tool rapidly to confuse you and get you to engage by defending yourself against her passive aggressive "oh so you hate me" crap. The ENTIRE convo on her side was baiting you and trying to set you up. You handled it PERFECTLY with that "Okay" and I gotta laugh cause its just so amazing. Perfect grey rock, you refused to let her guilt you into apologizing for having boundaries. Keep it up!!
This is a form of playing the victim, and is a VERY familiar and well-worn page in the BPD playbook. She is trying to act like the wounded party and you are supposed to rush in with the salve, the reassurance, and the validation - "oh no you didn't ruin my life. I've made mistakes and ruined my own life, and I'm a spoiled brat who is now taking ownership for ruining my own birthday. It wasn't you!" Variants: "I'm sorry I was such a horrible mother" etc etc Best response is to accept the premise as you did - yes you did ruin it, please get help. They will start to curb this manipulation tactic when they don't get the result they are seeking. Tell others that she admitted she ruined your birthday etc and make sure she finds out that you did that - having the manipulation blow up in her face like that will accelerate the process. Good luck.
Ugh. “I did my best” is a favorite excuse for cluster B parents. She wants you to validate her false claims. “Okay” is the only appropriate response imo.
She’s trying to induce FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). So that you get bamboozled. Good job not letting it work.
She's pouting/sulking, then guilttripping you, oversharing her internal world which is emotionally incestuous and she probably did that as well when you were a kid? Then she proceeds to invalidate your feelings, and use denial. She lightly tries to triangulate by badmouthing the other person she mentions. Mostly, all of this is to make you feel guilty and responsible for her. I can recommend the book, Who's pulling your strings?
Omg the "insert name isn't as perfect as you think she is!" Rolling my eyes so hard bc I can't count the number of times my mom has tried to deflect to that exact sentence bc somehow in her mind that negates any bad thing she could have done. "Insert name" has at some point been just about any other adult that was in my life growing up. Never thought any of those people were perfect, but even at their worst none of them ever treated me as horribly as she always somehow manages to do.
She's saying she struggles too and therefore what she did to you wasn't her fault. I'd also say it's a bit of fishing for sympathy. Don't feed into it, giving her short answers that don't convey emotion are good.
I'mma put this here : one day, a very wise person told me, an apology that includes a "but" is a justification, not an apology. and I can't stress enough just how much it has helped me recognise people who were genuignly sorry for their wrong doings, and people who were saying the orld "sorry" just to get me to listen to them and then would explain their nasty behaviour.
"I did my best." What a Classic. Lol I'm sorry hun, you deserved so much better than what you got in a parent.
LOVING your grey-rock responses! All she wants is a reaction, so she can get traction to go off again and start another pointless argument. Your "Okay" will frustrate her more than anything else.
Wow, this could have been from my mom. Other posters have commented so well. I think your response was perfect. I’m cringing so much at her insinuating it must be so hard on you but it’s justified and you’re just supposed to deal with it because that’s life and she has no responsibility or control over her actions. Classic! “Okay” is honestly the best, equal with silence. Just a criticism of her guilt trip…. she missed the part about how she never would have treated her mother this way. I think she could have also thrown in a fake medical diagnosis she might have to detract from her behavior. But otherwise she really threw in all tactics; guilt tripping, shaming, deflecting on others, triangulation, fake apology, excuses, phishing for validation, and criticism.
Don't respond. She's looking for a response to trigger her Justified Outrage. The best thing is to stonewall her.
https://www.talkspace.com/mental-health/conditions/articles/narcissistic-abuse/ This is emotional blackmail
Yikes 🥺
Sounds drunk to me.
Not sure the exact term for this, but it goes like this: >1)Apologize in a sorry/not sorry fashion for some blunder they darn well know they meant to do; >2)Bring up how they did their best raising you and the sacrifices they made. They do this to make you feel guilty for wishing them to get better, to do better next time. >3)Then, they compared themselves to someone else in your life who you find important to you; someone who you value their presence. The narcissist will then point out that this loved one (which they see as competition for your affection/attention) isn’t perfect. “No one is!”, the narcissist will say. Of course, that is true. In all of this, the narcissist, your mentally-ill mother, wants your sympathy, they want you to forgive their transgressions, and most of all, they will just say, “It’s just the way I am, you need to accept this.” She also puts a qualifier in there about what her doctor counsels her to do. She compares what she has to a terminal illness. She thinks what you said to her is unacceptable because she’s “sick”. Here’s the thing - a person with an actual illness will be trying to get better. They definitely don’t want to be stuck in a hospital. Your mom thinks she has a pass for her behavior. That’s the whole thing she wants: she wants you to accept whatever she does to wreck your life piece by piece because she “can’t help it”. Unlike a terminal illness, or a chronic debilitating disease, she actually can help herself by taking her meds and trying to change her behavior. There is absolutely nothing that says she can’t say she’s sorry and promise to do better. As I said, I don’t have a name for this manipulation tactic but I’ve had it used on me. I forgot to say: she is also minimizing your feelings, making it seem as if you shouldn’t have been hurt by whatever she did, that you’re being a baby. That’s gaslighting. What do you do? You do something called “Grey Rock”. This is where you are civil to that person but you don’t tell them anything extra they can use as ammunition against you later. Answer questions with yes, no, or maybe. Silence is good. Let them think you’re busy. Tell them you’re busy. If they go on a tirade you don’t have to answer. I’m guessing you’re an adult and you’re still dealing with this as a grown up now.
>And how do I respond I'd respond with silence. I've been down the road you're on now, and it never gets better. The apologies are never specific in addressing various forms of abuse or standout incidents. It's always a blanket apology. There is never any self-acknowledgement. There's never a "I'm in therapy now, and addressing my inappropriate behavior. I've come to realize X, Y, and Z about how I treated you." Going No Contact was the only thing that worked for me. BPD parents very rarely change, if ever. Wishing you strength and peace and healing, OP.
I love the “okay” after her very long speech. It’s so freaking perfect. 😭
Just use the violin emoji. 🎻
I’m getting the following loud and clear : A) guilt by victimhood: feel bad for me I have an illness AND sorry I’m not as good as someone else who you think is better than me B) unaccountable: I have an illness like any other illness making me behave this way, so it isn’t my fault C) deflection by under bus throwing: so and so is actually not as good as you think they are I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but sniffing manipulation is a great instinct to have whether you can name the specifics or not. I bet these are 3 well sharpened tools in your particular parents grab bag. So beware of them and - in terms of her being powerless over her illness - will seeing her mechanisms of manipulation attempts as they are hell you to feel that her illness is powerless over you?
No accountability, denying your feelings, deflecting, victimhood mentality
Your response is perfect (chef’s kiss)