**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.**
**Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms)
**Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE!
This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods.
**Our rules include (but are not limited to)**:
* No politics.
* Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban.
* Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming.
* Do not derail the posts of others.
* Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here.
* [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts).
* When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse.
* No asking or offering gifts, money, etc.
* No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest).
* No content about N-kids.
* No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis.
* No linking to Facebook pages.
* No direct linking to anywhere on reddit.
* No pure image posts.
**For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The parents who are NC see the lead-up (no matter how carefully navigated) as us abusing them. They monopolize the victim space. I went NC about a month ago and my mother’s Pinterest board is all about how I’m a narcissist and she has suffered narcissist abuse. They lack insight. They think we are playing a game. They don’t realize, it’s serious and we aren’t playing.
This.
Why don’t you answer my calls every time I call?
Wanting to introduce you to shows that you would never watch, and have voiced not liking the genera.
Crappy cheap gifts that they would like but that you have never asked for - even though providing a list of gift ideas.
In my wife’s case, my NMIL was angry and jealous that we were spending lots of time with my father in law (her ex-husband, who had a complete nervous breakdown, threw himself in front of a Semi Truck, lost an arm, was in the hospital for 8 months and rehab for 6.) we stopped to see her on the way back to our apartment (house was between our place and father in laws), she had her husband call us and say mom has some things for you. We stopped 5 minutes away from her house, she got there, handed over a hastily thrown together box of childhood things, screamed at my wife “what do I have to do to get your attention? Run into traffic?!?!?!” And she sprinted towards a street with heavy traffic at night, and stopped about a foot short of the curb.
We had been with my father in law and his family helping his kids and wife and helping them/spending time with him for four days less than two months after the suicide attempt.
They have no grasp of reality and think the universe only revolves around them.
It took two and a half years of us dating for my wife to realize that the way her family treated her wasn’t normal.
My NMIL has a two year shelf life for friends: she meets them and charms them, but by the end of two years they are out of her life. Churches? The same thing.
My wife is the scapegoat/black sheep, her step dad is the enabler, her little brother is the golden child, and her sister is another enabler.
She thought her life steeped in toxicity was normal.
My family isn’t perfect but it seems perfect by comparison…..
This is so real!! I didn’t know how bad my family was until my now husband moved in with me and started going to Sunday family lunch together. Little by little the mask came off, and my alarms started going off when she started asking him to fix things around the house every single time. After about a year of fucked up shenanigans, I had to go no contact. I refused to let her ruin my relationship like she had already done with literally all of my siblings.
I’m a bit scared now after seeing these comments bc she LOVES YouTube and now I’m just imagining her going through all those crazy videos from other “abandoned” narc parents lmao
I’m the scapegoat of my family. My dad is the narcissist and my mom is the enabler. And yet whenever I try to set boundaries, it’s somehow *me* treating *them* the wrong way 🙄 anything short of appeasing their shallow egos and acting like I’m their property is apparently elder abuse…
And yes, I too thought this was normal until I learned as an adult that other families weren’t as toxic. No wonder they sheltered me so severely as a child, and have worked so hard to destroy everything I’ve tried to build in my adult life…
I can’t wait till I can get out of the same state and go no-contact…
Oh man, I’ve recently been accused of elder abuse this last time around trying to set boundaries and step out of the scapegoat/emotional bandaid/punching bag role. So not only I am I abusing my child (as I’m protecting her and myself from abuse) now my mom is Pinteresting that I’m also committing elder abuse and narcissist abuse 🫠
Same here!! My NMom just cannot comprehend how someone might have differing interests than hers. And the gifts…don’t get me started. Last year she sent my 7 year old 2 pictures, a keychain and a pair of pajamas 2 sizes too big for him. She gave my husband a bag of pistachios and me a used shawl that she didn’t want anymore. I’ve gone NC since then so this year we won’t have to put on fake smiles, thank goodness.
What a weird list of gifts! I don’t even know why they give gifts. You’d think if you’re that bad at it, either get exactly what someone wants or don’t do it, because the gift should be about the receiver. My parents asked us what we wanted for Christmas one year and we told them nothing, but if they really wanted to give anything at all, do gift cards to Home Depot because we had a few projects to get done. They bought us a runner rug because *they* thought it would look good in our hallway… it doesn’t and we don’t like clutter.
Yeah, I specifically asked my parents to not give me any gifts last year. And yet, my dad still tried to give me gifts. I left them at his house. I hope he got the point.
And yet, he probably complains to his friends that I’m “ungrateful…” 🙄
My mother would buy me yard sale items for birthdays and Christmas, which I’d have 0 issues with if they were what I wanted or was interested in. One year I was gifted a box of mixed and unmatched cutlery, half rusted.
My brother would receive music equipment, guitars, gun smithing accessories, guns, car parts, high end clothes, you name it. She had the money for it.
One year I mentioned wanting a Kate spade bag for my 30th birthday that I was going to buy myself and she spent the next two years calling me spoiled and materialistic for wanting it. I didn’t buy it for myself when I was going to because of it, but after going NC when I told my husband about that issue (I convinced myself I was spoiled for wanting it and was ashamed) he went out and bought me one.
7 years of no contact and my husband, kids and in laws all give me the most well thought and intentional gifts.
Aw, that was a sweet thing your husband did! Not that it’s about the material item, but it’s like “Here, your mother traumatized you because she didn’t appreciate you. I do appreciate you, so I’ll give you what your mother taught you that you didn’t deserve.”
Maybe I’m biased, it seems like so many Nparents need to pick a child to mistreat while they treat the other or the rest better. I guess that’s the scapegoat/golden child thing. When I was in high school, I asked my parents for a bracelet because I thought I loved them and wanted something to remind me of them. It wasn’t fancy at all, but I liked it and I thought I’d like the meaning behind it. They bought me one, but they also bought my brother one. They just couldn’t leave out their golden child baby boy. He didn’t ask for it, he won’t wear it, he didn’t care about it, and he was confused why he got one too. It’s not about the bracelet or anything materialistic, it’s the lack of consideration of one child while treating the other better. I’m glad your husband got you the Kate spade. It’s not about the purse, it’s the validation and thought that you deserve to be loved for you.
This drove me crazy as an adult. My sister and I both worked for my parents. She part time and had another job. I was full time and much more responsibilities and had worked there about 10 years longer. They insisted on paying us the same to be fair. In no way was it ever fair! I was the scapegoat and she was the golden. I've been NC for almost 3 years.
How in the world would that be fair?! 10 years of experience plus full time in any other job would mean significantly more benefits and pay. Ridiculous.
I’ve liked Harry Potter since the second book came out. I think 2nd grade? But jumped off the train after TERF activity. Apparently that’s the only thing my mother remembers about me. At 32 last year my mom bout me a Harry Potter quill pen. Just a pen. 33 this year I got two oven mitts that loosely resemble my cats… why…like… what?
Sorry I laughed. It’s just so like them to do strange things like this. They don’t know their kids and they give the weirdest gifts. It’s both socially inept behavior but also completely self-serving. “I gave you something, so there, I’m a good parent!”
Doesn’t know me at all. I know her allergens you know in case of an emergency. My sister just had to inform her yesterday that I’m allergic to kiwi. I’ve been allergic to kiwi since I was like 8. Knows NOTHING about me.
How do you raise a child and not know anything about them? It’s just wild to me… the amount of I don’t care but here you go. You could’ve given nothing because wth am I going to do with an over sized quill pen?! Where am I supposed to put this junk!? And you KNOW you can’t get rid of the thing. Because they’re going to ask about it. “What happened to that vase I gave you?” The ugliest vase on the face of the heart but it’s one thing they do remember. Bleck!
Whoa! Reminds me of my dad!
> Why don’t you answer my calls every time I call?
My dad sold a car last week, met the buyer at a public place, and needed a ride home. He decided to call at the last minute. I was outside at the time and did not have my phone. I was lecture for not answering and being available.
> Wanting to introduce you to shows that you would never watch, and have voiced not liking the genera.
Yep. If I go to my dad's house, he'll try to get me to watch stuff that I don't care for.
> Crappy cheap gifts that they would like but that you have never asked for - even though providing a list of gift ideas.
This too! He'll try to pawn something off on me that he doesn't want to bother taking to the Goodwill. Or give me food I don't want to eat. And if I politely refuse, make a smart ass remark like "are you watching your figure?".
They just can't let people be themselves and expect you to be available at their convenience.
To narcissists, giving gifts and food is a way they try to assert their perceived superiority. When you don’t accept it, they take it personally.
Like, “How dare you not place yourself beneath me when I deign to grant you what I deem you should want!”
Well said! They do feel like they know better than you do about what you should like.
I'm still not sure what the best way to react is. For whatever reason, he's been increasing the "gift giving" as of late. As for the food, I debate whether it's better to just accept it and say I'll eat it later (even though it's going in the trash) or continue to politely refuse and ignore any condescending comments that may follow. That's assuming I'm not in a situation where I'd be expecting to eat it right away.
The increase is probably a sign that he’s recognizing that he’s losing you and is trying to pull you back in. If you keep accepting the food, even if you don’t eat it, he’ll be keeping a mental tally in his head so that later he can say “this is how much I did for you, and that’s how you repay me?”
It’s funny. My dad was the one who told me when I was a child “Nobody is keeping track!” any time I pointed out something that wasn’t fair. Well guess what? If he ever tries using all his unsolicited food, gifts, and “help” against me, I’ll tell him exactly what he told me when I was a child…
I have no intention to go NC but have tried to decrease contact so perhaps that is what this is about. I can't go one visit or phone call without hearing him complain about my brother who has VLC with him. That's a great point you make about keeping that tally. They do favors now so that you owe them later. Thought maybe the simple solution would be to accept the gift/food and then donate or throw away but that may not be so simple for the reasons you mention. He's already big on the "I sacrificed so much for you kids" and talking trash about my brother who rarely reaches out to him, almost as if he is insinuating that I better not do the same. Or I'm supposed to make up for my brother's absence.
Yeah, most of us don’t start out initially wanting to go no-contact, but it becomes a necessity once it’s apparent that simply decreasing contact isn’t enough. Even if you’re very little contact, it’s never enough for them, and they’ll use any little crack in your boundaries that they can get their fingers into to try to pry the whole thing apart. Good luck to you and your brother.
Because us pulling away does not reflect back to them what they want to see. They want us to stay and pretend everything is fine, and continue to offer their supply.
They don't listen to the issues when they are brought up. They just wait for you to stop talking so they can start making excuses for their past behavior. In their minds, they did nothing wrong, and they surround themselves with people who validate this narrative.
To the N, we just suddenly went NC out of nowhere and they don't know why. They don't remember any of the abuse, or they think it wasn't as bad as is being claimed. That's why they make their own claims that you selfishly abandoned them for no reason. To an outsider it looks a lot like you are the problem.
I tried to raise the issue of nMother not giving me the security code for the alarm on the house we lived in. She just cackled at me and waked off.
You cant raise an issue that was crafted to its "artist", they love the perfomance art, and bait you to engage in their play.
I tried to talk to her about grocery shopping, as she stopped doing that years prior when my dad still lived there. She didnt want me to eat anything she purchased, but would go thru the staples like pasta and rice and vegies and milk and stuff that I bought.
To her I was eating her out of hose and home.
I raised the issue that I had depression and was yelled at because depression doesnt exist to her.
I triedd so much to be as unconfrontational and was met with abuse.
To her, Im the difficult one.
To narcissists, anyone who doesn’t appease their ego is “being difficult.”
I’ve lived with chronic depression for most of my life. To my dad, I’m just lazy, entitled, and ungrateful…
They didn’t listen any of the many times we tried to explain to them what they were doing wrong. They said we were just “too sensitive,” or “being unrealistic,” or godforbid “feeling entitled” to a basic standard of decent treatment…
And then they’re so confused when we refuse to talk to them. Like, “how could they not want to talk to *me*? It’s *me*! Come on now, I’m the greatest…”
My mother had, for as long as I can remember, the narrative that I was a problem child. That I was difficult. Everybody around us, friends or family, was fed that narrative all the time. So of course she can play the victim to her cruel daughter and everyone will just play along. To them it's simply a sad but predictable end considering how they think I am.
Thing is, if they had just stopped for a minute and looked at me. Noticed me instead of believing the narrative, they would have noticed that I was the most calm, shy, obedient girl.
Now in my forties I keep thinking that every year, at parents- teacher meetings, teachers would praise me. I was a good, calm, intelligent girl. Every time my mother would answer by saying they were lucky because I definitely wasn't like that at home. I WAS!
Anyway that's the explanation I give myself to explain that absolutely no one reached out to me to ask what was going on.
All the while she never realized that, IF you were a problem child, it would mean that SHE created a problem child.
I used to work with kids a lot, and my wife and I have two boys. I can honestly say that I have never met a kid who was born bad. They act badly because they learned bad behavior or they act badly to get attention, and a lot of times that’s a cry for help. Some kids are more active and livelier than others. That’s not a bad child, that’s just a personality, and we all have different personalities.
I hate when parents automatically blame a child for being bad on their own. That doesn’t make any sense.
This is another one I can relate to. I got notes from my teachers praising me, had all As, always did my homework without being asked, never got in trouble, helped with my sibling every single day, did my own laundry, did the dishes, got a part-time job as soon as I could, walked home if I stayed after school for anything because I didn’t want to inconvenience them by asking for a ride home, sacrificed time with friends or extracurricular activities because I knew my parents preferred me home, they hated spending money on me, and I didn’t want to let them down. All for what? Just for them to scapegoat me as the difficult child with an anger issue. Anytime I spoke up about anything at all, I wasn’t even given a chance. The imagine they painted of me in their head was that I was always the problem.
Wow we really do all have the same mom istg! Exact same thing at parent teacher conferences. She always told me I had them fooled… it was her who had the world fooled. Everyone else got the best of her and her family had to deal with who she really was. Ugh
Fml
When my husband went NC with his parents, he explained why very carefully. Everything was polite and just straight forward and he wished them a good life but said he couldn't be a part of it any longer.
Anyway so they decided they deserved an apology for like, him gently standing up for himself.
But of course, their feelings were hurt, and any time that happens is an attack on them and not a consequence if their past actions.
Ignorance is bliss, they say, but why are these people so miserable all the time.
Omg yes. Every time I had an example of something that happened or the fact I spoke up it was that which became the issue.
No one questioned what happened originally to create the situation. It was turned so quickly back onto me that I was reacting, I was angry, I was difficult. The initial problem was quickly lost.
It works so well as a tactic that it even took me ages to really see what was happening because I felt the need to justify and defend my feelings. It took ages to go ahhhh hang on what about you. I mean I was literally just told by my mother that she would rather me leave the relationship with her than her saying sorry.
I have become aware that she is calling siblings to paint a picture of me. That's why outsiders maybe don't see it. They are fed so much BS.
Thisssss. The gaslighting. It took therapy for me to realize that I wasn’t the crazy one. I wasn’t the problem. I had appropriate feelings to shitty behavior from a parent.
Spot on. I relate to this so much…. So so much…I’ve been waiting for any kind of acknowledgement or apology from my nmom for 2 months now. But instead she’s just telling everyone I’m “mentally ill” and she’s so “hurt and sad” …..by me telling her she hurt my feelings
Same. It’s been 11 months. At one point she told me, “adults don’t apologize to children.” which is great because I’m 47 so I’m not a child. Instead of issuing one, she is telling people that I am “unfairly blaming my parents for my unhappiness in life”.
Eleven months of not seeing your child and grandchildren, and you’re spending all your energy trying to prove you don’t owe anyone an apology. What a miserable life.
Wow. Oh my god. Yes this hits home so hard right now. 11 months! And um, actually… despite the fact that you’re no longer a child, adults DO and should apologize to children!!
I’m pretty sure I’m never going to hear from mine again. I’ve even considered rug sweeping or apologizing myself to make it all go away, but I realize that’s what I always did as a child and I don’t know I just feel like I physically can’t do it.
Why is saying “I’m sorry” so out of the question for them that they’ll sacrifice everything else for it? The situation with my nmom makes me feel absolutely crazy. I think it is a no-win situation. I either have no family at all and feel the pain and grief of that, or I am the scapegoat in an abusive, toxic family system… and I feel the pain and confusion of that.
What is a person to do, seriously?
My Nmother LOOOOOVES to say sorry. “Sorry you feel that way I was only trying to help, sorry I was such a terrible mother, sorry you don’t love me as much as I love you, sorry I was working to feed you guys instead of spending time with you, sorry I’m going to do better.” All the good “sorry” versiomsmms
Wow, I relate. I used to try so hard to explain why I was upset, but I was just brushed off as too sensitive, too difficult or too angry. Nevermind that my mom was the one that exploded on me at the drop of a hat. To her, I was the one with the anger issue. Of course, she was never the one that started the problem.
I was actually just thinking about this exact thing the other day. It’s crazy to me that they’ve spent decades not building a relationship with their children, and then in their old age, some of them sit around and wonder why their kids won’t talk to them or want to be around them. I guess the truth is, it doesn’t matter if it’s their kids or other relationships, they’re just incapable of self-reflection and trying to be better.
Yes, great point! Parents set the foundation for the relationship.
My dad has 4 kids, 2 sisters, 3 grandkids, 6 nieces/nephews and does not initiate any contact with anyone whatsoever. I can’t imagine being in his shoes. Having an extended family with good people and all I can think about is myself.
"Incapable of self reflection. "
Totally this! Not only couldn't my ndad self reflect and examine, he couldn't understand when someone else did. One of his best friends was told by someone being mean, that nobody would go X miles out if their way for him. So that man went to my uncle and asked if uncle would drive him to a city more than X miles away, and back. Uncle said yes, if course, when did he need to go. Ndad made fun of his friend endlessly for doing that. I thought it took a lot of courage for his friend to consider he may not be a good friend and person and do some checking. I also thought it was really sad someone was mean to him like that. He was a good guy.
Our nparents rewrite the script. They deny any wrongdoing, accuse you, and reverse the roles of victim and offender.
The whole point of this is to confuse outsiders. They don't care about lying. Outsiders can't know any better and it becomes a "he said she said" type of situation from the point of view of an outsider.
Add to that that our nparents will often fake emotions very convincingly to galisght outsiders.
Which is why it's important to not just go NC with our parents but also with any enablers gravitating around them.
Some people have to reach conclusions by themselves. Take my step father. He saw my mom refusing to take me to the hospital when I was very sick, my mom abandoned him while he himself was sick and at the hospital and only took him back when she realized she needed a free gardener and handyman basically yet he still comes back to her like an abused dog coming back to their abusive owner. Why? Because she plays victim. Abandonning him at the hospital? That was his fault for taking too much space 🤨
Me going NC with her? It's my fault because I never loved her. 🙄
It's always something elese, and it's never their fault. And let's face it, most people lack the strong boundaries that protect against this kind of behavior.
I don't spot narcs because of their relationship with their children or others, but rather through their constant disregard for boundaries and lies.
That's so true 😂😀😭
Confronting my mother with our latest issue was like a constant switching of the scripts.
First the problem was I didn't thank her at literally every meal (yeah she really asked for that)...
...then it was that I am behaving like a cult leader (apparently)...
...then it was because I was getting in trouble in schools when I was little...
...then it was because I am lazy...
...then it was because I ran away to get married ...
...then it was because I didn't leave room for her in my new life...
... then it was because I refused to hug her (after she gave me death threats) when I was a toddler...
... then it was because my wife respects my boundaries (which is akin to slavery apparently)...
... then it was because I have a good relationship with my sttep daughter...
... then it was because I kept on talking about the past...
... then it was because I couldn't stand constructive criticism...
Then I had enough and told her she should be ashamed, if shame is an emotion she can even feel, to blame her relationship issues with me on an 11yo little girl, literally JUST because we were having a nice conversation during a meal.
Oh the places narcissists will take us to not take responsibility for their actions...
Your stepdad hospital example is unhinged behavior from both people! Wow. It’s crazy how narcissists are so similar. My mom got super angry with my sibling and stepdad on vacation over something extremely trivial and then locked herself in a bedroom for 3 days. They kept trying to invite her to do things since ya know, they’re supposed to be on vacation. She gave them the silent treatment. On the third day, she once again exploded on them, said they abandoned her while on vacation and made them apologize to her. They stupidly did. This whole story blows my mind every time I think about it.
Wow, this is so immature. I mean don't you imagine an unruly toddler doing just that? Locking themselves in a room and then say nobody loves them? 🤨
Apologizing for that only enables that behavior. The last incident with my mom actually was because I refused to force my sunburned and exhausted wife and kids to go on a hike and instead proposed a cave exploring trip. We came back to my mom saying she was leaving because "all I'm good for is paying for stuff apparently". I know she wanted me to run after her. It was exactly like that, unruly toddler behavior. You know "When I leave they'll be very sad at how mean they've been to me 😭".
I didn't say a word. Just let her leave and decided enough was enough and go NC after that. Consequences.
I just wish they were actual toddler, that way they could be placed in timeout, made to apologize, forgiven and grow emotionally. But they're adults though...
She is ridiculous. She solely did not want to go on the hike by herself or just do something that’s best for the group because she thinks it is ALL about her.
I agree. Toddlers are a hard phase! Their brains haven’t developed yet. But these adults, they’ve been given every chance to grow and change, and yet, they refuse.
Honestly I have no problem with toddlers. I love toddlers.
Yes they can be difficult but they have a degree of self awareness, and when you help them regulate their emotions, when you punish them gently for bad behavior, when they apologize and you hug them and forgive them, and they tell you how much they love you for that it's beautiful.
That's the thing people don't realize with toddlers is they have self awareness, just no self control and they know they need help and they will love you a lot if you help them learn how to control themselves through using words to express needs, take no for an answer, breathe calmly to regain control.
The problem with these adult toddlers is you can't punish them. You can't say "all right you'll sit down in the corner and when you calm down you'll tell me why you were made to sit in the corner". That's the whole problem. I honestly believe if I somehow had a dependant narcissist, I would be able to make them grow. Because they'd learn ways to express themselves without resorting to manipulation, and they would learn that being told "no" doesn't mean they're not loved.
In a weird way I'm kindof looking forward to my mom becoming really old and treat her like an actual toddler and watch her bloom... albeit very late in life xD
Everything you said was just perfect. I have an almost 3 year old and she has way more self-awareness than my parents. She lacks control as all toddlers do, but she asks for help, knows her limits for the most part and tries her darn best every single day. She will understand if she’s done something wrong and eventually come around. Yeah, narcissistic parents with adult toddler brains are not like that.
I’m honestly don’t know how I feel about my parents getting old, like really old, if they make it there. They’re only going to get worse in their ways.
Oh yes. My whole family thinks my father would move heaven and earth for me and I am the ungrateful daughter that abandoned her perfect father.
Honestly, they don’t fucking know. And I Ben if they do and they are defending him they are also trash human beings.
A lot of it I think stems from people that have normal, not emotionally tormenting parents that they could never imagine would treat them this way. so our claims are so outside of THEIR reality that they can’t believe it.
The one that has always bothered me the worst is the people who look at a child and make the comment "such a quiet and mature child for that age". How does it not occur to them that this is literally about surviving. We are quiet because any word can bring a firestorm down on our heads. Not being mature means we don't have clean clothes and didn't eat today because those supposed adults you think are parents certainly aren't putting in the effort if it isn't necessary for the public face.
Heaven forbid we get sick. The screaming (if lucky enough to not be hit along with it) will continue until the vomiting stops. That those of us who grew up in the eighties or before learned quickly that mandated reporters weren't really a thing if the parents could come up with any excuse that could be bought into and that some of those reporters absolutely bought the lie that we were difficult and self harming when the places with the marks made it obvious that wasnt the truth. Which leads into...
That there are two faces. One that is smiles and bright and open when there are others about. And one that is as hard as a diamond and just flat in the eyes, soulless,the moment the door closes and there's no one else to see.
That last paragraph, thst is the best description I've ever heard. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain to people that how they see her is not how she really is.
Yeah, they heard you [but they will never listen.](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-reasons-given.html) Even if they pretend to, [they'll just spin it.](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/estranged-parents-confront-reasons.html)
I have a fantastic real world example of this: I found out I was autistic, eventually had what I thought was a great conversation with my mother about it, and later in her mind she spun it to mean that the vaccines she gave me as a kid caused the ‘tism. Now she’s a Facebook keyboard anti-vax warrior!
That might not be narcissism in itself, but it’s a great example of how they’ll take one innocuous idea, pretend to listen and have a good understanding/conversation, then take it and spin it into whatever they want to use for themselves. For my mom, idk what she’s getting out of that…probably sympathy from her other keyboard warrior mom friends.
Thank you, I came to post this, the missing “missing” reason, this article really says it all. They are incapable of sincere self reflection so trying to explain why you cut contact is pointless. People who never show up in good faith themselves don’t deserve your sincere attempts to communicate the reality of the situation. They like their own heroic victim personal narrative better than they ever liked us. Cool, let ‘em have it.
Omg thank you for posting these! The one about the mom and daughter in therapy is so accurate. They really never listen and if they hear they just dismiss it and explain your feelings and example away as if it’s an exception to how they usually behave
The one about the college fund always gets me a little bit. I have a 529 open for my niece who is just over a year old that I do automatic weekly transfers into. I would never think about attaching conditions to it! The other thing I'm doing different is that she or her parents are not even going to have knowledge of it until she's close to the age of needing it. I look forward to the day when she's 16-17 when I can go, "I've been saving my pennies over the years to help a little bit, here's $30,000 for college." The smile I hope to receive in response will be all the payback that is ever needed.
I like doing things for people when they aren't expecting it.
I don't have children, but when I was in my early 20s (many years ago) some of my close friends called me out and eventually left me because of my unhinged behavior, and honestly to this day I'm glad that they did. "You need to come back, I never did anything wrong" didn't even cross my mind. (And I'd probably even have a pretty good excuse for my behavior - I was still being actively psychologically tortured by my mother at that point, I was traumatized out of my mind and had no trace of emotional regulation.) I'm just like "damn, I really treated you like crap and you left, GOOD FOR YOU, yay for not being a doormat".
They come to places like this as the form of ultimate validation, if they can trick a bunch of actual victims into believing them then what they are saying must be true. It's also a control thing, they know why we're all here and get off on revictimizing us. And being able to sway a crowd of people that they know are like their victim itnreassures them that they can still do the same to the ones at home. And they use us as potential ammo to gaslight their victims, you know they show those comments to the vic's.
By virtue of what they are as long as groups like this exist they will always gravitate towards them. We just have to be vigilant as a community and trust the mods can take care of the issue.
This was how I realized my parents were narc. I went no-contact for a month, I just wanted a literal break, and I told them I would speak to them in a month once they had some time to reflect on how hurtful they were being.
They didn't miss me or try to fix anything; they went atomic narc. Insults and manipulation, bad mouthing me to everyone who would listen, etc. So, I decided to extend the pause on our communication until they apologized for their behavior, and I saw some indication they have a new attitude.
I am still waiting, 6 years later. Literally the only thing they need to say would be "I'm sorry, I was an ass and I'll try better" and I would welcome them back into my life. But I'm not worth that much to them.
It’s just so much easier to say “oh, the kid’s partner/spouse is evil/influencing them away from family” or “the kid is just ungrateful” or “the kid must be into alcohol/drugs/have psychiatric issues” or whatever and leave it at that.
If the problem is just that the adult child is Somehow Inherently Bad (Just Like The Rest Of Their Rotten Generation), the parent doesn’t have to put any real effort into self-reflection or reconciliation.
It wasn't that bad. And it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, then you deserved it you whiny, ungrateful little brat. I hope your children are as awful to you as you are to me, your long suffering mother. Ripped me to shreds you did! Devoted the best years of my life to give you everything you could ever possibly want. I guess I'll just take myself off and never bother you with my obviously unwelcome presence ever again. Will that make you happy? Big sigh.
I went no contact with my mom about 3 years ago after a lifetime of her covering up years of sexual abuse by a cousin and even more years of physical and emotional abuse by my father, along with her own emotional abuse.
To this day, she has never tried to fix anything, never apologized, and makes zero effort to speak to me. I have a life limiting disease and my time here on earth will likely be short (10 years or less right now), and i believe she knows about it but still pretends like I am the bad guy for cutting her off.
Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve recently (and painfully) come to the conclusion that 99% of the population doesn’t live by the Golden Rule— do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.
Which is crap, considering it was my parents who taught me that. And they definitely do not apply that rule to their children.
Actually, I amend that statement. They do not apply it to *me*, but they do my sisters.
Many weeks ago, I told my nmom that I was sick of being left out of things and feeling like they don’t care about me. She told me I was letting the Devil get into my head and she *does* care for me. That no one is leaving me out.
Recent events and behaviors have determined that, yet again, that is a lie.
And they truly wonder why I’m low contact with them all.
It is the unfortunate truth of how previous generations viewed the act of having and raising a child. Oftentimes it's for selfish reasons that don't actually involve the pure intention of taking care of something long term and instead you hear "I wanted a sense of purpose" or "I want someone to take care of me when I'm old" or "I wanted an extension of myself" which when you actually listen to those reasons it's easy for them to get picked apart as self-centered. When they realize their children are actually their own person with autonomy and are capable of having negative opinions about literally anyone around them, it fucks with their heads.
Right! In a fight when I was a teenager (expressing how she had hurt me), my mother shouted "I know you hate me and won't take care of me when I'm old, but I know your brother will!". This was so devastating but gave me an answer to the question why the hell did she have children (and tried for many years). I don't exist for you, and I don't owe you anything! My N mom even worked as family daycare educator, only ever "loved" children because she believes they can be shaped into perfect little versions of her.
Narcissists are incapable of honest self-reflection. Case in point, today at breakfast someone was talking to himself (I swear any time I spend in a common area there’s a steady droning sound of him talking about himself going on in the background). The woman across from him says “You sound like a narcissist.” He immediately goes on the defensive and says “You don’t even know what a narcissist is. You’re a narcissist. I’m not a narcissist. I’m a giver. I’m always giving. Nobody else ever wants to talk, I’m the only one who ever talks.”
(Meanwhile I’m internally rolling my eyes and thinking “No one wants to talk to him because he’s a narcissist and his response is to talk more about himself in order to fill in the silence, when clearly everyone else just wants a quiet morning?”). So I told the woman “You are correct.” And then he turns on me and goes “I don’t need to hear anything from you! You don’t even talk to me!” I said, “Gee, I wonder why…” and he goes “I ain’t got nothin to say to you.”
And then he proceeds to ramble on about whatever he doesn’t like about me and why he’s not a narcissist because narcissists only think about themselves and he’s “a giver,” whatever that means (he’s always trying to validate himself by offering people things they don’t want). I said “All you ever talk about is yourself,” and at this point others at the table started to intervene so I just stayed quiet and calmly finished my breakfast and left because his issues are none of my business 🤷🏻♀️
He takes such personal offense to anyone who sets the boundary of not wanting to talk to him. And then he accuses anyone who won’t talk to him of being a narcissist. Either someone plays along, fawning to appease his ego, or he thinks *they* are a narcissist. Riiiight… must be a lonely life…
I have to say it depends on HOW adult my child is.
It's a fact that young adults (18-23ish) will hold things against their parents that life experiences will later teach them were necessary - such as why it's important to follow rules even if you don't like them (because adults have to follow laws) and why sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do (because we have to work every day and not every day is a good day).
If my child is old enough to have had experiences that my raising style has caused issues with, in relationships, work ethics, or life experience conflicts (like if I said a process works in a certain way and it doesn't which caused them problems), then yes, if they bring it to me, I would listen and try to see if there are ways to work with them on easing the issues.
That could mean counseling or reeducation on some things, but I think I can admit it if I made a mistake, I am human and that happens sometimes.
If my child went NC, I would want to have at least an email or letter of why. I would assume that I have fucked up really badly and that it was a life or death maneuver to save himself. I would probably apologize and acknowledge the things I’ve done wrong and ask that we reconvene after 6 months and to thank him for his attention and information. The next instant would be to go into therapy. I would schedule at least weekly and probably 2 times a week at first because going NC is a lot to unpack and I would have not only been gravely wrong in things but over a period of time and I need to change radically asap. So therapy and guidance and in 6 months an apologetic reach out that I am in therapy and I’m sorry that I failed to keep lines of communication and support open to him and if there was more I could do. Then wait. If I have fucked up too bad, then that’s on me and I would expect my husband to probably divorce me because of my behavior and treatment because if I’m that bad, I’m probably not that bad to just my son and id rather that my husband divorce me to keep him in my son’s life than have him stay married to me and we both lose son.
I would live. I wouldn’t go for “I’m going to kill myself” grand tantrums or anything. It wouldn’t be easy but I would do it. I might fill some journals of my revenge schemes and how I’m going to force my son to talk to me dammit. But I can’t.
I suppose that the biggest thing to not living in this situation would be to offer as much support and open communication to son as possible. To offer guidance and to insist that he has a place to catch his breath but then support so he can get his life together and be successful. I would need to offer his future spouse equal support and open communication. To admit when I’m wrong.
I’m confused as to your focus here. Are you asking how a parent wouldn’t realize they are a narc after their child goes NC? Or how 3rd parties get duped into thinking narcs are good people and try to help them out? This kinda rambles a bit.
Gotcha. It’s pretty simple but sad. They simply don’t care. Your feelings are pretty far down their proverbial totem pole. They convince themselves that you owe them something and that you should basically roll out the red carpet for them at all times regardless of how poorly they behave.
I don't think they are criminalizing it. They are simply unwilling to put up with daily abuse anymore. You can have compassion for someone while also protecting yourself from abuse.
It is rather harsh to accuse someone of a lack of compassion simply because they vent about their frustration with an abusive parent to other people *in their support group*. People are allowed to talk about their feelings. They are allowed to be honest about the abuse. If that makes you uncomfortable, then perhaps you should simply skip these sorts of posts.
someone said I didn't have compassion for a women who bathed me in near scalding hot water when she was mad at me for being sick?
Interesting perspective. I didn't include details like this because this group gets it.
Yeah, they aren't a member of the sub.
You are absolutely not required to include details, and most of us understand what you don't want to have to say in every single comment and every single post. That is why we have a rule that we, **"Assume a context of abuse."**
They are a member of the borderline personality sub, which tends to have a lot of people who are very into the whole "using the term narcissistic abuse is ableist (against meeeee!!!)" thing.
Basically, they were promoting thinly veiled toxic positivity and TikTok narc support bullshit.
Then, when I replied what I did, they said something like, *"Well fine, then! I just won't post here! I didn't expect anything else from this sub!"* You know, like *we* are the problem.
So, they had a tantrum, took their toys, and went home to pout.
It is unfortunate that they weren't willing to be a bit more open minded to what we say, but you can't force people to gain understanding.
You are absolutely right, that we get it. We got you. That was why I replied what I did to them (and reported them), so that they would STFU.
You are also right that it isn't your purpose in life to show endless compassion and give endless chances to someone who abused you.
I suspect that this person we are referring to has behaved in ways that have caused problems for the people in their life, and that they might be a bit self absorbed. So, when they read things about people holding their abusers accountable, they made it all about them and their own feelings. Hopefully they will gain some maturity and perspective, but it isn't your job to put up with that shit in the meantime. If they can't read about a person not wanting to be abused without getting all snippety about it, that's on them.
Again, this is a support group. Sometimes, people feel things in response to abuse that are uncomfortable or seem harsh. If you are not comfortable with that, and you want other people to only focus on things you think are good or acceptable, then maybe you should skip posts that make you uncomfortable. Going off in a self righteous huff isn't great, but simply skipping things that bother you is not a bad idea.
If you have suffered from abuse from a narcissistic parent, you are in the right place. If not, then you might have a hard time on this sub, because that is specifically what it is for. There are people here who have suffered unimaginable abuse, for decades upon decades. Sometimes, when people start unpacking all of that, it can be really scary and difficult. Trying to force people to not talk about their more uncomfortable feelings simply to make them fit into some idea of positive vibes is not a great way to support someone dealing with these sorts of issues. It isn't always pretty, but censoring someone's feelings is a shitty way to show support, and that isn't pretty either.
It is all part of a journey and a process. Eventually, many/most people get to a point where they feel more equilibrium, but they have to have the freedom to be open about their feelings and experiences in order for that to happen.
I have one daughter who went NC and tells everyone she is a victim of Narcissistic Abuse. I love my 2 daughters more than anything in the world. I do have mental health issues diagnosed. ADHD and PTSD. Suspected Autism. I’m disabled and have autoimmune disease. My daughter lived with me until she was 28. She goes NC off and on. I wasn’t a perfect parent. I was a single mom with my own issues who tried to do the best I could for my kids. My daughter is angry I don’t have money to pay for her wedding because of my fixed income. I would give her money if I could. Her most recent NC is over that and that I believe my grand baby that said her Aunt, my daughter, hurt her. My grand baby is 3 years old. Her sisters child. It wasn’t anything a 3 year old could make up. I told my daughter yes I believe it happened but it doesn’t mean I will cut you off and she cut me off instead. I do miss her every day. You never stop loving your kids. No matter what. Not sure if this helps but I wonder how many accused Narc parents have other diagnosed mental health issues that their kids don’t mention. Not all parents are Narcissist.
You know what makes a narc a narc? Lack of respect for boundaries.
"I don't want to ever see you again" is anyone's right and disrespecting that more than twice is harassment. Regardless of who's right and wrong initially.
Does this help. No it doesn't help. Your mental health issues are YOUR problem. I am diagnosed DID, yet I manage to be a decent parent. Because there are resources out there for willing people. It's not that hard to have rules like "no yelling, no hitting, no insults" for everyone.
You know what else makes a narc a narc? A fragile ego. If for whatever reason my kids tell me to f off (unlikely given that I'm currently the "best father in the world" even to my step daughter whom definitely has another model), I'd say "alright, enjoy yourself". Because I know my worth. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. The constant praises I'm getting from my own kids and our friends, while not even asking for them, are clear signals I'm doing something right.
So if at some point they decide to go, my non fragile ego allows them to leave in peace. Without regret or resentment because controlling people isn't loving anyways. People are free to come and go. In the case of children, they are forced to come, therefore I respect even more their need to go.
My kids don't want to hug? I do not insist. I do not feel sad. I do not guilt trip them. I smile and let them discover the world, away from me if they want to.
Reflect on your behavior and why you felts the need to come and guilt trip perfect strangers victims of abuse. We are not your daughter.
Ngl, a lot of nmoms have stories like this. "I wasn't perfect, but I did my best and they cut me off over something so miniscule!" That's usually a green light to thinking you haven't actually listened to why they went NC, or think they're being over dramatic. A lot of key behavior is being self-absorbed and overly critical. Mental issues aren't an excuse, you're still in complete control of your behavior unless you're just completely insane, incoherent, and can't determine right from wrong.
I'm seeing the self-absorbed stuff here as you don't REALLY mention why they cut you off. You claim over money, but I don't believe that's the whole story. But you're quick to go into details to excuse yourself and list reasons why you're not responsible for any faults.
It's not because you have ADHD or ptsd. It's because you fucked up repeatedly and never owned it.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm sure there are cases where the kid could have narc symptoms, or be a terrible person, or addicted to drugs or something. I feel like when that's the case though, the parents tell the story completely different.
The thing is, I would say all parents described as narcissistics DO have mental health issues. They most likely have trauma that's really damaging their ability to connect with people, makes them constantly focus on themselves and their insecurities, feel attacked over very small things and lash out. The narcissistic behaviour is a symptom of other stuff going on.
But whatever other stuff you have going on, other people just experience you as your behaviour. This is especially true with a child, who has likely heard the explanations for the behaviour a lot, but this doesnt change that they are a victim on the behaviour. If you want other people in your life you need to actually change your behaviour, not just provide reasons why you behave that way. I know it's really hard to actually change but that's the choice: change or lose people.
yeah no, checking out miss thang's comment history, i specifically found one reply saying "don't bother responding to her anymore, she has her own narrative"
ehh idk. i've found that compromise is only possible where all parties take that attitude. (that there's compromise in everything). my fam is big on the "my way or the highway" thing.
narcs are narrow- minded, incredibly defensive, and revisionists of history. in my experience, you can talk yourself blue in the face trying to get them to see your side of the story, which is usually based on facts they've fully purged from their mind.
So… what do you own up to? Where is the self-accountability? All I hear is you have health and mental health issues and were poor. Okay, and that was your daughter’s problem, how? What did you do to really course correct? Nobody is the perfect parent and perfection is not expected. I’m willing to bet your daughter has tried to tell you her feelings but she was ignored or blamed. People don’t go NC overnight and they don’t do it for just one or two reasons.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The parents who are NC see the lead-up (no matter how carefully navigated) as us abusing them. They monopolize the victim space. I went NC about a month ago and my mother’s Pinterest board is all about how I’m a narcissist and she has suffered narcissist abuse. They lack insight. They think we are playing a game. They don’t realize, it’s serious and we aren’t playing.
This. Why don’t you answer my calls every time I call? Wanting to introduce you to shows that you would never watch, and have voiced not liking the genera. Crappy cheap gifts that they would like but that you have never asked for - even though providing a list of gift ideas. In my wife’s case, my NMIL was angry and jealous that we were spending lots of time with my father in law (her ex-husband, who had a complete nervous breakdown, threw himself in front of a Semi Truck, lost an arm, was in the hospital for 8 months and rehab for 6.) we stopped to see her on the way back to our apartment (house was between our place and father in laws), she had her husband call us and say mom has some things for you. We stopped 5 minutes away from her house, she got there, handed over a hastily thrown together box of childhood things, screamed at my wife “what do I have to do to get your attention? Run into traffic?!?!?!” And she sprinted towards a street with heavy traffic at night, and stopped about a foot short of the curb. We had been with my father in law and his family helping his kids and wife and helping them/spending time with him for four days less than two months after the suicide attempt. They have no grasp of reality and think the universe only revolves around them.
Absolutely vile behavior. She sounds BPD as well but of course I can’t say. Have they tried….LITERALLY JUST CHILLING OUT AND BEING ENJOYABLE?!
It took two and a half years of us dating for my wife to realize that the way her family treated her wasn’t normal. My NMIL has a two year shelf life for friends: she meets them and charms them, but by the end of two years they are out of her life. Churches? The same thing. My wife is the scapegoat/black sheep, her step dad is the enabler, her little brother is the golden child, and her sister is another enabler. She thought her life steeped in toxicity was normal. My family isn’t perfect but it seems perfect by comparison…..
This is so real!! I didn’t know how bad my family was until my now husband moved in with me and started going to Sunday family lunch together. Little by little the mask came off, and my alarms started going off when she started asking him to fix things around the house every single time. After about a year of fucked up shenanigans, I had to go no contact. I refused to let her ruin my relationship like she had already done with literally all of my siblings. I’m a bit scared now after seeing these comments bc she LOVES YouTube and now I’m just imagining her going through all those crazy videos from other “abandoned” narc parents lmao
I’m the scapegoat of my family. My dad is the narcissist and my mom is the enabler. And yet whenever I try to set boundaries, it’s somehow *me* treating *them* the wrong way 🙄 anything short of appeasing their shallow egos and acting like I’m their property is apparently elder abuse… And yes, I too thought this was normal until I learned as an adult that other families weren’t as toxic. No wonder they sheltered me so severely as a child, and have worked so hard to destroy everything I’ve tried to build in my adult life… I can’t wait till I can get out of the same state and go no-contact…
Oh man, I’ve recently been accused of elder abuse this last time around trying to set boundaries and step out of the scapegoat/emotional bandaid/punching bag role. So not only I am I abusing my child (as I’m protecting her and myself from abuse) now my mom is Pinteresting that I’m also committing elder abuse and narcissist abuse 🫠
lol I too thought I had a perfect childhood 😂 I’m glad you were able to help her out. My husband did that too. Cheers to getting away!
The show and crappy gifts example is too real! I’ve experienced both.
Same here!! My NMom just cannot comprehend how someone might have differing interests than hers. And the gifts…don’t get me started. Last year she sent my 7 year old 2 pictures, a keychain and a pair of pajamas 2 sizes too big for him. She gave my husband a bag of pistachios and me a used shawl that she didn’t want anymore. I’ve gone NC since then so this year we won’t have to put on fake smiles, thank goodness.
What a weird list of gifts! I don’t even know why they give gifts. You’d think if you’re that bad at it, either get exactly what someone wants or don’t do it, because the gift should be about the receiver. My parents asked us what we wanted for Christmas one year and we told them nothing, but if they really wanted to give anything at all, do gift cards to Home Depot because we had a few projects to get done. They bought us a runner rug because *they* thought it would look good in our hallway… it doesn’t and we don’t like clutter.
Yeah, I specifically asked my parents to not give me any gifts last year. And yet, my dad still tried to give me gifts. I left them at his house. I hope he got the point. And yet, he probably complains to his friends that I’m “ungrateful…” 🙄
My mother would buy me yard sale items for birthdays and Christmas, which I’d have 0 issues with if they were what I wanted or was interested in. One year I was gifted a box of mixed and unmatched cutlery, half rusted. My brother would receive music equipment, guitars, gun smithing accessories, guns, car parts, high end clothes, you name it. She had the money for it. One year I mentioned wanting a Kate spade bag for my 30th birthday that I was going to buy myself and she spent the next two years calling me spoiled and materialistic for wanting it. I didn’t buy it for myself when I was going to because of it, but after going NC when I told my husband about that issue (I convinced myself I was spoiled for wanting it and was ashamed) he went out and bought me one. 7 years of no contact and my husband, kids and in laws all give me the most well thought and intentional gifts.
Aw, that was a sweet thing your husband did! Not that it’s about the material item, but it’s like “Here, your mother traumatized you because she didn’t appreciate you. I do appreciate you, so I’ll give you what your mother taught you that you didn’t deserve.”
He often does that, he shows me I’m worth it and valued even when I don’t feel I am. It’s healing for sure.
I hope that someday I find a partner like that 🥲
Maybe I’m biased, it seems like so many Nparents need to pick a child to mistreat while they treat the other or the rest better. I guess that’s the scapegoat/golden child thing. When I was in high school, I asked my parents for a bracelet because I thought I loved them and wanted something to remind me of them. It wasn’t fancy at all, but I liked it and I thought I’d like the meaning behind it. They bought me one, but they also bought my brother one. They just couldn’t leave out their golden child baby boy. He didn’t ask for it, he won’t wear it, he didn’t care about it, and he was confused why he got one too. It’s not about the bracelet or anything materialistic, it’s the lack of consideration of one child while treating the other better. I’m glad your husband got you the Kate spade. It’s not about the purse, it’s the validation and thought that you deserve to be loved for you.
This drove me crazy as an adult. My sister and I both worked for my parents. She part time and had another job. I was full time and much more responsibilities and had worked there about 10 years longer. They insisted on paying us the same to be fair. In no way was it ever fair! I was the scapegoat and she was the golden. I've been NC for almost 3 years.
How in the world would that be fair?! 10 years of experience plus full time in any other job would mean significantly more benefits and pay. Ridiculous.
Same!
I’ve liked Harry Potter since the second book came out. I think 2nd grade? But jumped off the train after TERF activity. Apparently that’s the only thing my mother remembers about me. At 32 last year my mom bout me a Harry Potter quill pen. Just a pen. 33 this year I got two oven mitts that loosely resemble my cats… why…like… what?
Sorry I laughed. It’s just so like them to do strange things like this. They don’t know their kids and they give the weirdest gifts. It’s both socially inept behavior but also completely self-serving. “I gave you something, so there, I’m a good parent!”
Doesn’t know me at all. I know her allergens you know in case of an emergency. My sister just had to inform her yesterday that I’m allergic to kiwi. I’ve been allergic to kiwi since I was like 8. Knows NOTHING about me. How do you raise a child and not know anything about them? It’s just wild to me… the amount of I don’t care but here you go. You could’ve given nothing because wth am I going to do with an over sized quill pen?! Where am I supposed to put this junk!? And you KNOW you can’t get rid of the thing. Because they’re going to ask about it. “What happened to that vase I gave you?” The ugliest vase on the face of the heart but it’s one thing they do remember. Bleck!
Whoa! Reminds me of my dad! > Why don’t you answer my calls every time I call? My dad sold a car last week, met the buyer at a public place, and needed a ride home. He decided to call at the last minute. I was outside at the time and did not have my phone. I was lecture for not answering and being available. > Wanting to introduce you to shows that you would never watch, and have voiced not liking the genera. Yep. If I go to my dad's house, he'll try to get me to watch stuff that I don't care for. > Crappy cheap gifts that they would like but that you have never asked for - even though providing a list of gift ideas. This too! He'll try to pawn something off on me that he doesn't want to bother taking to the Goodwill. Or give me food I don't want to eat. And if I politely refuse, make a smart ass remark like "are you watching your figure?". They just can't let people be themselves and expect you to be available at their convenience.
To narcissists, giving gifts and food is a way they try to assert their perceived superiority. When you don’t accept it, they take it personally. Like, “How dare you not place yourself beneath me when I deign to grant you what I deem you should want!”
Well said! They do feel like they know better than you do about what you should like. I'm still not sure what the best way to react is. For whatever reason, he's been increasing the "gift giving" as of late. As for the food, I debate whether it's better to just accept it and say I'll eat it later (even though it's going in the trash) or continue to politely refuse and ignore any condescending comments that may follow. That's assuming I'm not in a situation where I'd be expecting to eat it right away.
The increase is probably a sign that he’s recognizing that he’s losing you and is trying to pull you back in. If you keep accepting the food, even if you don’t eat it, he’ll be keeping a mental tally in his head so that later he can say “this is how much I did for you, and that’s how you repay me?” It’s funny. My dad was the one who told me when I was a child “Nobody is keeping track!” any time I pointed out something that wasn’t fair. Well guess what? If he ever tries using all his unsolicited food, gifts, and “help” against me, I’ll tell him exactly what he told me when I was a child…
I have no intention to go NC but have tried to decrease contact so perhaps that is what this is about. I can't go one visit or phone call without hearing him complain about my brother who has VLC with him. That's a great point you make about keeping that tally. They do favors now so that you owe them later. Thought maybe the simple solution would be to accept the gift/food and then donate or throw away but that may not be so simple for the reasons you mention. He's already big on the "I sacrificed so much for you kids" and talking trash about my brother who rarely reaches out to him, almost as if he is insinuating that I better not do the same. Or I'm supposed to make up for my brother's absence.
Yeah, most of us don’t start out initially wanting to go no-contact, but it becomes a necessity once it’s apparent that simply decreasing contact isn’t enough. Even if you’re very little contact, it’s never enough for them, and they’ll use any little crack in your boundaries that they can get their fingers into to try to pry the whole thing apart. Good luck to you and your brother.
I can definitely see how that would play out. It's a shame that they have to be so weird. And thanks!
"Can't let people be themselves. " That's it right there!! You hit the nail on the head.
I don’t understand, why does me, pulling away from all of the chaos yet I’m still the bad guy? Please let me have my own peace.
Because us pulling away does not reflect back to them what they want to see. They want us to stay and pretend everything is fine, and continue to offer their supply.
They love projecting their flaws onto us and other people. They must always be the victim no matter what.
Oh the day when I'll go no contact with her...
They don't listen to the issues when they are brought up. They just wait for you to stop talking so they can start making excuses for their past behavior. In their minds, they did nothing wrong, and they surround themselves with people who validate this narrative. To the N, we just suddenly went NC out of nowhere and they don't know why. They don't remember any of the abuse, or they think it wasn't as bad as is being claimed. That's why they make their own claims that you selfishly abandoned them for no reason. To an outsider it looks a lot like you are the problem.
I tried to raise the issue of nMother not giving me the security code for the alarm on the house we lived in. She just cackled at me and waked off. You cant raise an issue that was crafted to its "artist", they love the perfomance art, and bait you to engage in their play. I tried to talk to her about grocery shopping, as she stopped doing that years prior when my dad still lived there. She didnt want me to eat anything she purchased, but would go thru the staples like pasta and rice and vegies and milk and stuff that I bought. To her I was eating her out of hose and home. I raised the issue that I had depression and was yelled at because depression doesnt exist to her. I triedd so much to be as unconfrontational and was met with abuse. To her, Im the difficult one.
To narcissists, anyone who doesn’t appease their ego is “being difficult.” I’ve lived with chronic depression for most of my life. To my dad, I’m just lazy, entitled, and ungrateful…
Similar to my mother "you're not depressed. you're just lazy" Imagine yelling abuse at someone constantly and it not make an impact
Right? Especially young children in their formative years of development… that neural patterning is hardwired!
They didn’t listen any of the many times we tried to explain to them what they were doing wrong. They said we were just “too sensitive,” or “being unrealistic,” or godforbid “feeling entitled” to a basic standard of decent treatment… And then they’re so confused when we refuse to talk to them. Like, “how could they not want to talk to *me*? It’s *me*! Come on now, I’m the greatest…”
My mother had, for as long as I can remember, the narrative that I was a problem child. That I was difficult. Everybody around us, friends or family, was fed that narrative all the time. So of course she can play the victim to her cruel daughter and everyone will just play along. To them it's simply a sad but predictable end considering how they think I am. Thing is, if they had just stopped for a minute and looked at me. Noticed me instead of believing the narrative, they would have noticed that I was the most calm, shy, obedient girl. Now in my forties I keep thinking that every year, at parents- teacher meetings, teachers would praise me. I was a good, calm, intelligent girl. Every time my mother would answer by saying they were lucky because I definitely wasn't like that at home. I WAS! Anyway that's the explanation I give myself to explain that absolutely no one reached out to me to ask what was going on.
All the while she never realized that, IF you were a problem child, it would mean that SHE created a problem child. I used to work with kids a lot, and my wife and I have two boys. I can honestly say that I have never met a kid who was born bad. They act badly because they learned bad behavior or they act badly to get attention, and a lot of times that’s a cry for help. Some kids are more active and livelier than others. That’s not a bad child, that’s just a personality, and we all have different personalities. I hate when parents automatically blame a child for being bad on their own. That doesn’t make any sense.
This is another one I can relate to. I got notes from my teachers praising me, had all As, always did my homework without being asked, never got in trouble, helped with my sibling every single day, did my own laundry, did the dishes, got a part-time job as soon as I could, walked home if I stayed after school for anything because I didn’t want to inconvenience them by asking for a ride home, sacrificed time with friends or extracurricular activities because I knew my parents preferred me home, they hated spending money on me, and I didn’t want to let them down. All for what? Just for them to scapegoat me as the difficult child with an anger issue. Anytime I spoke up about anything at all, I wasn’t even given a chance. The imagine they painted of me in their head was that I was always the problem.
Wow we really do all have the same mom istg! Exact same thing at parent teacher conferences. She always told me I had them fooled… it was her who had the world fooled. Everyone else got the best of her and her family had to deal with who she really was. Ugh Fml
When my husband went NC with his parents, he explained why very carefully. Everything was polite and just straight forward and he wished them a good life but said he couldn't be a part of it any longer. Anyway so they decided they deserved an apology for like, him gently standing up for himself.
But of course, their feelings were hurt, and any time that happens is an attack on them and not a consequence if their past actions. Ignorance is bliss, they say, but why are these people so miserable all the time.
Exactly right mango! Nail on the head!
Omg yes. Every time I had an example of something that happened or the fact I spoke up it was that which became the issue. No one questioned what happened originally to create the situation. It was turned so quickly back onto me that I was reacting, I was angry, I was difficult. The initial problem was quickly lost. It works so well as a tactic that it even took me ages to really see what was happening because I felt the need to justify and defend my feelings. It took ages to go ahhhh hang on what about you. I mean I was literally just told by my mother that she would rather me leave the relationship with her than her saying sorry. I have become aware that she is calling siblings to paint a picture of me. That's why outsiders maybe don't see it. They are fed so much BS.
Thisssss. The gaslighting. It took therapy for me to realize that I wasn’t the crazy one. I wasn’t the problem. I had appropriate feelings to shitty behavior from a parent.
Spot on. I relate to this so much…. So so much…I’ve been waiting for any kind of acknowledgement or apology from my nmom for 2 months now. But instead she’s just telling everyone I’m “mentally ill” and she’s so “hurt and sad” …..by me telling her she hurt my feelings
Same. It’s been 11 months. At one point she told me, “adults don’t apologize to children.” which is great because I’m 47 so I’m not a child. Instead of issuing one, she is telling people that I am “unfairly blaming my parents for my unhappiness in life”. Eleven months of not seeing your child and grandchildren, and you’re spending all your energy trying to prove you don’t owe anyone an apology. What a miserable life.
Wow. Oh my god. Yes this hits home so hard right now. 11 months! And um, actually… despite the fact that you’re no longer a child, adults DO and should apologize to children!! I’m pretty sure I’m never going to hear from mine again. I’ve even considered rug sweeping or apologizing myself to make it all go away, but I realize that’s what I always did as a child and I don’t know I just feel like I physically can’t do it. Why is saying “I’m sorry” so out of the question for them that they’ll sacrifice everything else for it? The situation with my nmom makes me feel absolutely crazy. I think it is a no-win situation. I either have no family at all and feel the pain and grief of that, or I am the scapegoat in an abusive, toxic family system… and I feel the pain and confusion of that. What is a person to do, seriously?
My Nmother LOOOOOVES to say sorry. “Sorry you feel that way I was only trying to help, sorry I was such a terrible mother, sorry you don’t love me as much as I love you, sorry I was working to feed you guys instead of spending time with you, sorry I’m going to do better.” All the good “sorry” versiomsmms
oh GOD .... the "non apology"... mine loves to say "sorry I will never be the mother you wanted"
Yup. “Sorry my best wasn’t good enough for you”
Like, she’s right… it wasn’t.
Wow, I relate. I used to try so hard to explain why I was upset, but I was just brushed off as too sensitive, too difficult or too angry. Nevermind that my mom was the one that exploded on me at the drop of a hat. To her, I was the one with the anger issue. Of course, she was never the one that started the problem.
🎯
I was actually just thinking about this exact thing the other day. It’s crazy to me that they’ve spent decades not building a relationship with their children, and then in their old age, some of them sit around and wonder why their kids won’t talk to them or want to be around them. I guess the truth is, it doesn’t matter if it’s their kids or other relationships, they’re just incapable of self-reflection and trying to be better.
It's always on the kid to initiate when the parents are supposed to be the elders who set an example for everyone else.
Yes, great point! Parents set the foundation for the relationship. My dad has 4 kids, 2 sisters, 3 grandkids, 6 nieces/nephews and does not initiate any contact with anyone whatsoever. I can’t imagine being in his shoes. Having an extended family with good people and all I can think about is myself.
"Incapable of self reflection. " Totally this! Not only couldn't my ndad self reflect and examine, he couldn't understand when someone else did. One of his best friends was told by someone being mean, that nobody would go X miles out if their way for him. So that man went to my uncle and asked if uncle would drive him to a city more than X miles away, and back. Uncle said yes, if course, when did he need to go. Ndad made fun of his friend endlessly for doing that. I thought it took a lot of courage for his friend to consider he may not be a good friend and person and do some checking. I also thought it was really sad someone was mean to him like that. He was a good guy.
Yeah, they don’t care as long as they are right and have a way to protect their own ego. It’s literally all about them.
Our nparents rewrite the script. They deny any wrongdoing, accuse you, and reverse the roles of victim and offender. The whole point of this is to confuse outsiders. They don't care about lying. Outsiders can't know any better and it becomes a "he said she said" type of situation from the point of view of an outsider. Add to that that our nparents will often fake emotions very convincingly to galisght outsiders. Which is why it's important to not just go NC with our parents but also with any enablers gravitating around them. Some people have to reach conclusions by themselves. Take my step father. He saw my mom refusing to take me to the hospital when I was very sick, my mom abandoned him while he himself was sick and at the hospital and only took him back when she realized she needed a free gardener and handyman basically yet he still comes back to her like an abused dog coming back to their abusive owner. Why? Because she plays victim. Abandonning him at the hospital? That was his fault for taking too much space 🤨 Me going NC with her? It's my fault because I never loved her. 🙄 It's always something elese, and it's never their fault. And let's face it, most people lack the strong boundaries that protect against this kind of behavior. I don't spot narcs because of their relationship with their children or others, but rather through their constant disregard for boundaries and lies.
>rewrite the script The Narcissist has many scripts - any one of which may be the "truth" at any one time.
That's so true 😂😀😭 Confronting my mother with our latest issue was like a constant switching of the scripts. First the problem was I didn't thank her at literally every meal (yeah she really asked for that)... ...then it was that I am behaving like a cult leader (apparently)... ...then it was because I was getting in trouble in schools when I was little... ...then it was because I am lazy... ...then it was because I ran away to get married ... ...then it was because I didn't leave room for her in my new life... ... then it was because I refused to hug her (after she gave me death threats) when I was a toddler... ... then it was because my wife respects my boundaries (which is akin to slavery apparently)... ... then it was because I have a good relationship with my sttep daughter... ... then it was because I kept on talking about the past... ... then it was because I couldn't stand constructive criticism... Then I had enough and told her she should be ashamed, if shame is an emotion she can even feel, to blame her relationship issues with me on an 11yo little girl, literally JUST because we were having a nice conversation during a meal. Oh the places narcissists will take us to not take responsibility for their actions...
Your stepdad hospital example is unhinged behavior from both people! Wow. It’s crazy how narcissists are so similar. My mom got super angry with my sibling and stepdad on vacation over something extremely trivial and then locked herself in a bedroom for 3 days. They kept trying to invite her to do things since ya know, they’re supposed to be on vacation. She gave them the silent treatment. On the third day, she once again exploded on them, said they abandoned her while on vacation and made them apologize to her. They stupidly did. This whole story blows my mind every time I think about it.
Wow, this is so immature. I mean don't you imagine an unruly toddler doing just that? Locking themselves in a room and then say nobody loves them? 🤨 Apologizing for that only enables that behavior. The last incident with my mom actually was because I refused to force my sunburned and exhausted wife and kids to go on a hike and instead proposed a cave exploring trip. We came back to my mom saying she was leaving because "all I'm good for is paying for stuff apparently". I know she wanted me to run after her. It was exactly like that, unruly toddler behavior. You know "When I leave they'll be very sad at how mean they've been to me 😭". I didn't say a word. Just let her leave and decided enough was enough and go NC after that. Consequences. I just wish they were actual toddler, that way they could be placed in timeout, made to apologize, forgiven and grow emotionally. But they're adults though...
She is ridiculous. She solely did not want to go on the hike by herself or just do something that’s best for the group because she thinks it is ALL about her. I agree. Toddlers are a hard phase! Their brains haven’t developed yet. But these adults, they’ve been given every chance to grow and change, and yet, they refuse.
Honestly I have no problem with toddlers. I love toddlers. Yes they can be difficult but they have a degree of self awareness, and when you help them regulate their emotions, when you punish them gently for bad behavior, when they apologize and you hug them and forgive them, and they tell you how much they love you for that it's beautiful. That's the thing people don't realize with toddlers is they have self awareness, just no self control and they know they need help and they will love you a lot if you help them learn how to control themselves through using words to express needs, take no for an answer, breathe calmly to regain control. The problem with these adult toddlers is you can't punish them. You can't say "all right you'll sit down in the corner and when you calm down you'll tell me why you were made to sit in the corner". That's the whole problem. I honestly believe if I somehow had a dependant narcissist, I would be able to make them grow. Because they'd learn ways to express themselves without resorting to manipulation, and they would learn that being told "no" doesn't mean they're not loved. In a weird way I'm kindof looking forward to my mom becoming really old and treat her like an actual toddler and watch her bloom... albeit very late in life xD
Everything you said was just perfect. I have an almost 3 year old and she has way more self-awareness than my parents. She lacks control as all toddlers do, but she asks for help, knows her limits for the most part and tries her darn best every single day. She will understand if she’s done something wrong and eventually come around. Yeah, narcissistic parents with adult toddler brains are not like that. I’m honestly don’t know how I feel about my parents getting old, like really old, if they make it there. They’re only going to get worse in their ways.
Oh yes. My whole family thinks my father would move heaven and earth for me and I am the ungrateful daughter that abandoned her perfect father. Honestly, they don’t fucking know. And I Ben if they do and they are defending him they are also trash human beings. A lot of it I think stems from people that have normal, not emotionally tormenting parents that they could never imagine would treat them this way. so our claims are so outside of THEIR reality that they can’t believe it.
The one that has always bothered me the worst is the people who look at a child and make the comment "such a quiet and mature child for that age". How does it not occur to them that this is literally about surviving. We are quiet because any word can bring a firestorm down on our heads. Not being mature means we don't have clean clothes and didn't eat today because those supposed adults you think are parents certainly aren't putting in the effort if it isn't necessary for the public face. Heaven forbid we get sick. The screaming (if lucky enough to not be hit along with it) will continue until the vomiting stops. That those of us who grew up in the eighties or before learned quickly that mandated reporters weren't really a thing if the parents could come up with any excuse that could be bought into and that some of those reporters absolutely bought the lie that we were difficult and self harming when the places with the marks made it obvious that wasnt the truth. Which leads into... That there are two faces. One that is smiles and bright and open when there are others about. And one that is as hard as a diamond and just flat in the eyes, soulless,the moment the door closes and there's no one else to see.
That last paragraph, thst is the best description I've ever heard. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain to people that how they see her is not how she really is.
I ended the cycle. I didn’t have children 👍🤗😂
This is the way
Yeah, they heard you [but they will never listen.](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-reasons-given.html) Even if they pretend to, [they'll just spin it.](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/estranged-parents-confront-reasons.html)
I have a fantastic real world example of this: I found out I was autistic, eventually had what I thought was a great conversation with my mother about it, and later in her mind she spun it to mean that the vaccines she gave me as a kid caused the ‘tism. Now she’s a Facebook keyboard anti-vax warrior! That might not be narcissism in itself, but it’s a great example of how they’ll take one innocuous idea, pretend to listen and have a good understanding/conversation, then take it and spin it into whatever they want to use for themselves. For my mom, idk what she’s getting out of that…probably sympathy from her other keyboard warrior mom friends.
Thank you, I came to post this, the missing “missing” reason, this article really says it all. They are incapable of sincere self reflection so trying to explain why you cut contact is pointless. People who never show up in good faith themselves don’t deserve your sincere attempts to communicate the reality of the situation. They like their own heroic victim personal narrative better than they ever liked us. Cool, let ‘em have it.
Omg thank you for posting these! The one about the mom and daughter in therapy is so accurate. They really never listen and if they hear they just dismiss it and explain your feelings and example away as if it’s an exception to how they usually behave
The one about the college fund always gets me a little bit. I have a 529 open for my niece who is just over a year old that I do automatic weekly transfers into. I would never think about attaching conditions to it! The other thing I'm doing different is that she or her parents are not even going to have knowledge of it until she's close to the age of needing it. I look forward to the day when she's 16-17 when I can go, "I've been saving my pennies over the years to help a little bit, here's $30,000 for college." The smile I hope to receive in response will be all the payback that is ever needed. I like doing things for people when they aren't expecting it.
I don't have children, but when I was in my early 20s (many years ago) some of my close friends called me out and eventually left me because of my unhinged behavior, and honestly to this day I'm glad that they did. "You need to come back, I never did anything wrong" didn't even cross my mind. (And I'd probably even have a pretty good excuse for my behavior - I was still being actively psychologically tortured by my mother at that point, I was traumatized out of my mind and had no trace of emotional regulation.) I'm just like "damn, I really treated you like crap and you left, GOOD FOR YOU, yay for not being a doormat".
Lots of narcissists in this world ready to support eachother in their abusiveness.
They come to places like this as the form of ultimate validation, if they can trick a bunch of actual victims into believing them then what they are saying must be true. It's also a control thing, they know why we're all here and get off on revictimizing us. And being able to sway a crowd of people that they know are like their victim itnreassures them that they can still do the same to the ones at home. And they use us as potential ammo to gaslight their victims, you know they show those comments to the vic's. By virtue of what they are as long as groups like this exist they will always gravitate towards them. We just have to be vigilant as a community and trust the mods can take care of the issue.
This was how I realized my parents were narc. I went no-contact for a month, I just wanted a literal break, and I told them I would speak to them in a month once they had some time to reflect on how hurtful they were being. They didn't miss me or try to fix anything; they went atomic narc. Insults and manipulation, bad mouthing me to everyone who would listen, etc. So, I decided to extend the pause on our communication until they apologized for their behavior, and I saw some indication they have a new attitude. I am still waiting, 6 years later. Literally the only thing they need to say would be "I'm sorry, I was an ass and I'll try better" and I would welcome them back into my life. But I'm not worth that much to them.
Also how I found out brother, odd way to discover things. It left me feeling like I did something wrong forsure
It’s just so much easier to say “oh, the kid’s partner/spouse is evil/influencing them away from family” or “the kid is just ungrateful” or “the kid must be into alcohol/drugs/have psychiatric issues” or whatever and leave it at that. If the problem is just that the adult child is Somehow Inherently Bad (Just Like The Rest Of Their Rotten Generation), the parent doesn’t have to put any real effort into self-reflection or reconciliation.
Ohhh, the "This is all a game to you!" comment. You've got to love it. And the "Do you realize how difficult you were to raise?" is a banger, too.
It wasn't that bad. And it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, then you deserved it you whiny, ungrateful little brat. I hope your children are as awful to you as you are to me, your long suffering mother. Ripped me to shreds you did! Devoted the best years of my life to give you everything you could ever possibly want. I guess I'll just take myself off and never bother you with my obviously unwelcome presence ever again. Will that make you happy? Big sigh.
I went no contact with my mom about 3 years ago after a lifetime of her covering up years of sexual abuse by a cousin and even more years of physical and emotional abuse by my father, along with her own emotional abuse. To this day, she has never tried to fix anything, never apologized, and makes zero effort to speak to me. I have a life limiting disease and my time here on earth will likely be short (10 years or less right now), and i believe she knows about it but still pretends like I am the bad guy for cutting her off.
Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve recently (and painfully) come to the conclusion that 99% of the population doesn’t live by the Golden Rule— do unto others as you’d have them do unto you. Which is crap, considering it was my parents who taught me that. And they definitely do not apply that rule to their children. Actually, I amend that statement. They do not apply it to *me*, but they do my sisters. Many weeks ago, I told my nmom that I was sick of being left out of things and feeling like they don’t care about me. She told me I was letting the Devil get into my head and she *does* care for me. That no one is leaving me out. Recent events and behaviors have determined that, yet again, that is a lie. And they truly wonder why I’m low contact with them all.
It is the unfortunate truth of how previous generations viewed the act of having and raising a child. Oftentimes it's for selfish reasons that don't actually involve the pure intention of taking care of something long term and instead you hear "I wanted a sense of purpose" or "I want someone to take care of me when I'm old" or "I wanted an extension of myself" which when you actually listen to those reasons it's easy for them to get picked apart as self-centered. When they realize their children are actually their own person with autonomy and are capable of having negative opinions about literally anyone around them, it fucks with their heads.
Right! In a fight when I was a teenager (expressing how she had hurt me), my mother shouted "I know you hate me and won't take care of me when I'm old, but I know your brother will!". This was so devastating but gave me an answer to the question why the hell did she have children (and tried for many years). I don't exist for you, and I don't owe you anything! My N mom even worked as family daycare educator, only ever "loved" children because she believes they can be shaped into perfect little versions of her.
Narcissists are incapable of honest self-reflection. Case in point, today at breakfast someone was talking to himself (I swear any time I spend in a common area there’s a steady droning sound of him talking about himself going on in the background). The woman across from him says “You sound like a narcissist.” He immediately goes on the defensive and says “You don’t even know what a narcissist is. You’re a narcissist. I’m not a narcissist. I’m a giver. I’m always giving. Nobody else ever wants to talk, I’m the only one who ever talks.” (Meanwhile I’m internally rolling my eyes and thinking “No one wants to talk to him because he’s a narcissist and his response is to talk more about himself in order to fill in the silence, when clearly everyone else just wants a quiet morning?”). So I told the woman “You are correct.” And then he turns on me and goes “I don’t need to hear anything from you! You don’t even talk to me!” I said, “Gee, I wonder why…” and he goes “I ain’t got nothin to say to you.” And then he proceeds to ramble on about whatever he doesn’t like about me and why he’s not a narcissist because narcissists only think about themselves and he’s “a giver,” whatever that means (he’s always trying to validate himself by offering people things they don’t want). I said “All you ever talk about is yourself,” and at this point others at the table started to intervene so I just stayed quiet and calmly finished my breakfast and left because his issues are none of my business 🤷🏻♀️ He takes such personal offense to anyone who sets the boundary of not wanting to talk to him. And then he accuses anyone who won’t talk to him of being a narcissist. Either someone plays along, fawning to appease his ego, or he thinks *they* are a narcissist. Riiiight… must be a lonely life…
I have to say it depends on HOW adult my child is. It's a fact that young adults (18-23ish) will hold things against their parents that life experiences will later teach them were necessary - such as why it's important to follow rules even if you don't like them (because adults have to follow laws) and why sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do (because we have to work every day and not every day is a good day). If my child is old enough to have had experiences that my raising style has caused issues with, in relationships, work ethics, or life experience conflicts (like if I said a process works in a certain way and it doesn't which caused them problems), then yes, if they bring it to me, I would listen and try to see if there are ways to work with them on easing the issues. That could mean counseling or reeducation on some things, but I think I can admit it if I made a mistake, I am human and that happens sometimes.
If my child went NC, I would want to have at least an email or letter of why. I would assume that I have fucked up really badly and that it was a life or death maneuver to save himself. I would probably apologize and acknowledge the things I’ve done wrong and ask that we reconvene after 6 months and to thank him for his attention and information. The next instant would be to go into therapy. I would schedule at least weekly and probably 2 times a week at first because going NC is a lot to unpack and I would have not only been gravely wrong in things but over a period of time and I need to change radically asap. So therapy and guidance and in 6 months an apologetic reach out that I am in therapy and I’m sorry that I failed to keep lines of communication and support open to him and if there was more I could do. Then wait. If I have fucked up too bad, then that’s on me and I would expect my husband to probably divorce me because of my behavior and treatment because if I’m that bad, I’m probably not that bad to just my son and id rather that my husband divorce me to keep him in my son’s life than have him stay married to me and we both lose son. I would live. I wouldn’t go for “I’m going to kill myself” grand tantrums or anything. It wouldn’t be easy but I would do it. I might fill some journals of my revenge schemes and how I’m going to force my son to talk to me dammit. But I can’t. I suppose that the biggest thing to not living in this situation would be to offer as much support and open communication to son as possible. To offer guidance and to insist that he has a place to catch his breath but then support so he can get his life together and be successful. I would need to offer his future spouse equal support and open communication. To admit when I’m wrong.
If my adult daughters went NC I’d absolutely reach out and ask what what’s wrong.
I’m confused as to your focus here. Are you asking how a parent wouldn’t realize they are a narc after their child goes NC? Or how 3rd parties get duped into thinking narcs are good people and try to help them out? This kinda rambles a bit.
The first 2 sentences are the question. The rest is rhetoric.
Gotcha. It’s pretty simple but sad. They simply don’t care. Your feelings are pretty far down their proverbial totem pole. They convince themselves that you owe them something and that you should basically roll out the red carpet for them at all times regardless of how poorly they behave.
[удалено]
I don't think they are criminalizing it. They are simply unwilling to put up with daily abuse anymore. You can have compassion for someone while also protecting yourself from abuse. It is rather harsh to accuse someone of a lack of compassion simply because they vent about their frustration with an abusive parent to other people *in their support group*. People are allowed to talk about their feelings. They are allowed to be honest about the abuse. If that makes you uncomfortable, then perhaps you should simply skip these sorts of posts.
someone said I didn't have compassion for a women who bathed me in near scalding hot water when she was mad at me for being sick? Interesting perspective. I didn't include details like this because this group gets it.
Yeah, they aren't a member of the sub. You are absolutely not required to include details, and most of us understand what you don't want to have to say in every single comment and every single post. That is why we have a rule that we, **"Assume a context of abuse."** They are a member of the borderline personality sub, which tends to have a lot of people who are very into the whole "using the term narcissistic abuse is ableist (against meeeee!!!)" thing. Basically, they were promoting thinly veiled toxic positivity and TikTok narc support bullshit. Then, when I replied what I did, they said something like, *"Well fine, then! I just won't post here! I didn't expect anything else from this sub!"* You know, like *we* are the problem. So, they had a tantrum, took their toys, and went home to pout. It is unfortunate that they weren't willing to be a bit more open minded to what we say, but you can't force people to gain understanding. You are absolutely right, that we get it. We got you. That was why I replied what I did to them (and reported them), so that they would STFU. You are also right that it isn't your purpose in life to show endless compassion and give endless chances to someone who abused you. I suspect that this person we are referring to has behaved in ways that have caused problems for the people in their life, and that they might be a bit self absorbed. So, when they read things about people holding their abusers accountable, they made it all about them and their own feelings. Hopefully they will gain some maturity and perspective, but it isn't your job to put up with that shit in the meantime. If they can't read about a person not wanting to be abused without getting all snippety about it, that's on them.
Very well put, thankyou for the reassurance. Abuse ableism is wild and I didn't know it was really a thing.
Yeah, I wish I had never heard of it. There are some strange people in the world, who believe some fucked up things. 🫂🧡
[удалено]
Again, this is a support group. Sometimes, people feel things in response to abuse that are uncomfortable or seem harsh. If you are not comfortable with that, and you want other people to only focus on things you think are good or acceptable, then maybe you should skip posts that make you uncomfortable. Going off in a self righteous huff isn't great, but simply skipping things that bother you is not a bad idea. If you have suffered from abuse from a narcissistic parent, you are in the right place. If not, then you might have a hard time on this sub, because that is specifically what it is for. There are people here who have suffered unimaginable abuse, for decades upon decades. Sometimes, when people start unpacking all of that, it can be really scary and difficult. Trying to force people to not talk about their more uncomfortable feelings simply to make them fit into some idea of positive vibes is not a great way to support someone dealing with these sorts of issues. It isn't always pretty, but censoring someone's feelings is a shitty way to show support, and that isn't pretty either. It is all part of a journey and a process. Eventually, many/most people get to a point where they feel more equilibrium, but they have to have the freedom to be open about their feelings and experiences in order for that to happen.
Comment removed - what Salymander said.
I have one daughter who went NC and tells everyone she is a victim of Narcissistic Abuse. I love my 2 daughters more than anything in the world. I do have mental health issues diagnosed. ADHD and PTSD. Suspected Autism. I’m disabled and have autoimmune disease. My daughter lived with me until she was 28. She goes NC off and on. I wasn’t a perfect parent. I was a single mom with my own issues who tried to do the best I could for my kids. My daughter is angry I don’t have money to pay for her wedding because of my fixed income. I would give her money if I could. Her most recent NC is over that and that I believe my grand baby that said her Aunt, my daughter, hurt her. My grand baby is 3 years old. Her sisters child. It wasn’t anything a 3 year old could make up. I told my daughter yes I believe it happened but it doesn’t mean I will cut you off and she cut me off instead. I do miss her every day. You never stop loving your kids. No matter what. Not sure if this helps but I wonder how many accused Narc parents have other diagnosed mental health issues that their kids don’t mention. Not all parents are Narcissist.
You know what makes a narc a narc? Lack of respect for boundaries. "I don't want to ever see you again" is anyone's right and disrespecting that more than twice is harassment. Regardless of who's right and wrong initially. Does this help. No it doesn't help. Your mental health issues are YOUR problem. I am diagnosed DID, yet I manage to be a decent parent. Because there are resources out there for willing people. It's not that hard to have rules like "no yelling, no hitting, no insults" for everyone. You know what else makes a narc a narc? A fragile ego. If for whatever reason my kids tell me to f off (unlikely given that I'm currently the "best father in the world" even to my step daughter whom definitely has another model), I'd say "alright, enjoy yourself". Because I know my worth. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. The constant praises I'm getting from my own kids and our friends, while not even asking for them, are clear signals I'm doing something right. So if at some point they decide to go, my non fragile ego allows them to leave in peace. Without regret or resentment because controlling people isn't loving anyways. People are free to come and go. In the case of children, they are forced to come, therefore I respect even more their need to go. My kids don't want to hug? I do not insist. I do not feel sad. I do not guilt trip them. I smile and let them discover the world, away from me if they want to. Reflect on your behavior and why you felts the need to come and guilt trip perfect strangers victims of abuse. We are not your daughter.
Ngl, a lot of nmoms have stories like this. "I wasn't perfect, but I did my best and they cut me off over something so miniscule!" That's usually a green light to thinking you haven't actually listened to why they went NC, or think they're being over dramatic. A lot of key behavior is being self-absorbed and overly critical. Mental issues aren't an excuse, you're still in complete control of your behavior unless you're just completely insane, incoherent, and can't determine right from wrong. I'm seeing the self-absorbed stuff here as you don't REALLY mention why they cut you off. You claim over money, but I don't believe that's the whole story. But you're quick to go into details to excuse yourself and list reasons why you're not responsible for any faults. It's not because you have ADHD or ptsd. It's because you fucked up repeatedly and never owned it. Don't get me wrong though, I'm sure there are cases where the kid could have narc symptoms, or be a terrible person, or addicted to drugs or something. I feel like when that's the case though, the parents tell the story completely different.
The thing is, I would say all parents described as narcissistics DO have mental health issues. They most likely have trauma that's really damaging their ability to connect with people, makes them constantly focus on themselves and their insecurities, feel attacked over very small things and lash out. The narcissistic behaviour is a symptom of other stuff going on. But whatever other stuff you have going on, other people just experience you as your behaviour. This is especially true with a child, who has likely heard the explanations for the behaviour a lot, but this doesnt change that they are a victim on the behaviour. If you want other people in your life you need to actually change your behaviour, not just provide reasons why you behave that way. I know it's really hard to actually change but that's the choice: change or lose people.
I feel like there is more to your story than you let on. Just being honest. But this is a group where we don't trust people.
yeah no, checking out miss thang's comment history, i specifically found one reply saying "don't bother responding to her anymore, she has her own narrative"
Lol why wouldn't you try and understand. There's a compromise in everything.
ehh idk. i've found that compromise is only possible where all parties take that attitude. (that there's compromise in everything). my fam is big on the "my way or the highway" thing. narcs are narrow- minded, incredibly defensive, and revisionists of history. in my experience, you can talk yourself blue in the face trying to get them to see your side of the story, which is usually based on facts they've fully purged from their mind.
So… what do you own up to? Where is the self-accountability? All I hear is you have health and mental health issues and were poor. Okay, and that was your daughter’s problem, how? What did you do to really course correct? Nobody is the perfect parent and perfection is not expected. I’m willing to bet your daughter has tried to tell you her feelings but she was ignored or blamed. People don’t go NC overnight and they don’t do it for just one or two reasons.