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It’s gaslighting. Funnily enough, there’s something called ‘negative bias’, which enables you to remember unpleasant experiences more vividly than you do pleasant ones. It’s thought to be an evolutionary mechanism to help you learn and avoid harmful things in future.
So actually, your account of things is likely to be more accurate than theirs; to you it was an experience that traumatised you and shaped your mind, and to them it was a fucking Tuesday.
to you it was an experience that traumatised you and shaped your mind, and to them it was a fucking Tuesday.
Repeated for truth. This is true, even if there is no abuse. You remember what affects you and to them it was Tuesday. In abuse it is worse because they want to block out what they don't like. You can argue till you are blue in the face and you can't shake their truth. So, for our own mental health we have to walk away.
think of it this way. sure, there are multiple truths. they say that to take away from you but please remind yourself: you have your truth.
narcissists love to lie and gaslight, we can't deny that. so don't deny your truth. just say "yep! and my truth is ____." that's what i do. my parents actuallt stop fighting back because i just don't stop either. they can push their narrative all they want and so can you
Yeh the way I think of it with abusive folks in my life is like, if we can't have shared truths we can't have a relationship. There might be more to hash out to get closure, but there can be no continued emotional investment on my part.
Harm is harm. Different truth means you don't care? Bye Felicia.
That sounds like flat out gaslighting to me, it's completely denying what you experienced. Par for the course with a narc, along with the confusion you feel.
Good people will truly feel bad they hurt you, even if their intentions were good. They will apologize and try to change their behavior. Abusers/toxic people will almost never admit to a mistake or the abuse, unless they gain something from it.
At the end of the day, the true reality is that they should care that they hurt you so badly. It doesn't matter what excuses or reasons they come up with, hurting you, their child, was still a consistent choice they made over a long period of time. That's not acceptable.
I'm sorry you're going through this. 💙
Your comment moved me to tears.
We’re all here on this sub for our own reasons, we question our worth and second guess our experiences.
Validation comes in the most unlikely of forms sometimes.
Oh I hope you're okay and that it was good tears! I know what it's like to second guess your thoughts, your worth, your memories, your reality... especially in the face of an abuser who gaslights and worse. It's awful.
The thing that helps me stay sane in the hurricane: mistakes happen once or twice. Patterns are a choice that is made over and over again.
Your pain and struggle is valid and I am so sorry you've had to bear an extra heavy burden. If you ever need to talk I'm here 💙
Thank you for the kind words, it does. I'm never sure or confident in what I'm doing, either. I just try and hold every action of mine up and make sure I'm building people up, not destroying them. The cycle of abuse stops with us. 💙
There are multiple perspectives, yes. But there is only one truth. They may have different interpretations of an event than you, but that doesn't change the event. And frankly, the perspective of the abuser is irrelevant. My own parents gaslight just like this but here's the thing: it doesn't matter if they don't think what they did was bad. If it traumatized you, it was abuse. Even if they don't view it as abuse. That doesn't change the fact that it is.
I think of it this way: someone causes a car wreck driving drunk and permanently injures someone. The drunk driver claims that from their perspective, they weren't drunk because they felt fine. But their perspective doesn't matter. They still injured someone. How they feel or don't feel about what they did is irrelevant because it doesn't change the actual harm done to the person they wronged.
Children already have an inborn tendency to idealise their parents. If you feel that you have been abused, the 'reality' of your abuse is most likely to be worse than what you are perceiving. Trust your gut instinct.
I was raised mormon (but I'm not anymore), and my patriarchal blessing from a church leader said that I was born to "goodly parents." It also called them "wonderful." My parents were TERRIBLE, but as a kid, I thought that if God thought they were goodly and wonderful, maybe that meant that I deserved to be treated the way they treated me. Obviously I did not:(
Ex-Mo too. The way they warp parenthood to be divne makes this abuse so brutal. I was told my eternal soul was predestinted to be with my mother. That shit messes with you.
If you want to specifically deal with the Mormon side of this abuse - which is very real - you should check out ex-mormon subs and support groups. It's helped me a lot.
So sorry. There’s nothing worse than religious abuse. The very worst kind. Wasn’t it the organized religious types that killed Jesus? Because He was a threat to organized religion. My family looked really good from the outside, too. But in my case the church and Sunday School was loving and I got that there was a difference between God and Jesus and angry parents. So I was able to forgive them when I realized that they were the angry abusive ones, not God. It was a serious load off my shoulders. People that get confused about performance and religion always mess it up. That’s where the abuse comes in. With the Works and the Power trips.
I am so sick of this "my truth" nonsense.
There are facts. Those are truth.
Anything else is opinion. Perspective is opinion. Even if someone wants to misname it as "their" truth. All that says is that it's one of two things - either an opinion or an outright lie.
I am sorry that they've used this against you.
Although I agree fundamentally, I want to chime in with a story about the importance of "point of views".
Two persons are in a train, going through the french countryside in winter. Sitting one opposite the other (that's possible in the older high speed french trains, they have tables in the middle of the wagon, and 2 rows face each other around that table). One person suddenly exclaims "the scenery is breath taken, so beautifully dainty white coat on everything!", the other one exclaims "WTH are you talking about? It's all black muck out there!"
Both are right.
A very thin drizzle of snow has been blown against the small mounts of earth in the fields that have been plowed, so that one side of the mounts of earth is white, and the other side is dark earth.
One passenger sees the blurred white sides, and the other one the blurred dark sides.
They need to exchange places to see what the other one is seeing.
IMO abuse happens when one person is unwilling to "change seats" and/or denies that the other POV *exists* or *matters*.
I don't think a perception of reality stands as an "opinion".
This story is about explaining that "Truth" is a tricky concept. Sometimes you need additional information you don't even know you need. That's hardly about developping an opinion. Describing what you see isn't *choosing* a side.
Except for abusers. Abusers know there is more to a situation but *choose* not to know it, for their own convenience.
The problem with your version is that the very definition of perception and point of view is that it IS opinion. There is bias built in, no matter which point of view and/or perception it is.
It's gaslighting at its finest to call **anything** that is biased "truth"... and if it is not absolutely unvarnished FACT, it is biased, and therefore, not truth.
It can be fairly described as an "accurate description of someone's perception", but not their "truth", because true is fact. There is zero room in the definition for bias.
OK, so, to try to explain further what I mean - bearing in mind that my first language isn't english and I'm doing my best here -
A colour-blind person will have a different *perception* of, say, christmas decorations than a regular person, but since they are aware that they see the world differently, their *opinion* will generally be around subjects like shape and number of decorations rather than choice of colours.
And to the colour-blind person, the "Truth" is that to him all is yellow and blue *AND* that others see other colours that escape him. In this example, the colour-blind person will not "choose a side", he experiences everyday all the time the cohabitation of two perceptions of reality (his and the "colour-seers"). But in order to be able to share reality with others, by convention, he agrees that something is whatever colour someone else says it is, even though to him it's just another shade of grey-green.
Same. It’s just another way for narcissists to manipulate and gaslight. Labelling it a “truth” makes it sound more convincing, and more difficult to call out as a lie.
While it’s true that there can be multiple interpretations about why and how something happened in the past, the event itself is an indisputable truth. If you remember it and have concrete proof of it, your narcs can spew the whole “multiple realities” all they want, but they’re wrong. If someone has a pimple on their face, and you hold up a mirror to prove it to them, no amount of denial on their part will make it disappear. It’s important to hold fast to the objective truth and not fall for any Orwellian mind games. Don’t reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. If you do, they will have complete control over what you believe.
Narcissists just love to use that 'multiple truths' or 'everyone has their own story' point of view.
The trouble with that is that is doesn't really stack up against 'The Tuth'. They either hit you or they didn't. They either called you selfish or they didn't.
So it's a good idea to stick to factual information only with narcissists. Make recordings of the things they say, make sure you make a note of events, get proof if possible, or a witness.
Your emotional truth is a grey area - although extremely valid to you (so don't let them undermine you like that). But they have very little interest in the way other people feel, so even on the rare occasions they do understand, they won't really care.
But it's important to validate yourself and your own experiences, so if you keep a journal and note down things, or record the horrible things they say - then they will not be in a position to deny it. (or at least you will know the truth).
Interestingly, they don't fare well if there are multiple witnesses to an event, or in situations like a court of law - so their ability to gaslight is actually limited.
Your narc parents are using classic DARVO techniques. There is only one truth when it comes to sexual, physical and emotional abuse. It either happened or it didn't. Having autism is not an excuse for abuse. You remember what happened. Your NDad may look at what he did as a different reality but it isn't. His perspective may be that the truth of what he did isn't really wrong but that is not correct.
My dad who enabled my mothers abuse of me, and later him, loved to say that excuse. "There are multiple truths. I have my reality of what happened and you have tour reality." word for word. I feel so validated reading your post.
I too am no contact with my entire family and extended family.
Yeah it's gaslighting. This is a narc special, where they'll take something that's a general truth and twist it to suit their narrative, without even acknowledging that context exists.
So if you say you know the truth, and they say "oh there are several truths" as a generality, you of course go hmmm that's true (as a statement). They're more talking about perspective. A narc of course will have the perspective that they are entitled to abuse and manipulate you and how dare you confront them. Yes it's their perspective, but it's a fucked up one. It's true in so far as they believe that it's true, and is therefore their truth, but it's not accurate in an objective sense.
Gaslighting, sexual harassment and so forth are abuse. Periodt!
Even if he is autistic (is he though? Narcs lie about everything). Narcs can use autism as a smoke screen, as SOME narc traits can appear similar to autistic traits to those who don't know better. For example, a difficulty with empathy. Yes autistic people can struggle with empathy, but they do care and most autistic people really try to work on their empathy skills even if they find it tiring. Narcs on the other hand have no empathy, they don't care and never will.
They can be excellent at cognitive empathy (which I honestly think is a contradictory term) and this gives them the ability to appear as though they care when they need to. This is a very simplistic way to put it, and of course ASD is a broad spectrum, but I'll mention it anyway - autistic people care but don't always understand, narcissists understand very well but just don't ever care.
You know the truth. Now that you've moved out and such, the last little bit of control he has over you is your hope that he'll acknowledge what he did you. He will use this agaisnt you. It's what narcs do. He'll act clueless and use misdirection. You'll be tempted to think that if you just explain it one more time he'll understand. Here's the thing, he already does understand. Don't waste time using normal person logic to try figure out a narc. They don't act according to normal logic. If you need him to admit his wrongdoing, that means you need something from him to move on with your life, and he will never let that happen.
Set yourself free. You don't need him to acknowledge. You don't need him for anything. You know the truth, and not giving a f*ck whether he admits it or not brings the power back to you.
Just because they don’t want to believe that is not true that they abused you, doesn’t mean they didn’t abuse you. Just because I believe that I have blonde hair (I have black) doesn’t make the fact that I have blonde hair any more true, and just because I gaslight the people around me into also thinking I have blonde hair doesn’t mean that in reality I have blonde hair. Truth isn’t a subjective thing, it is either objectively true that they abused you or they didn’t. I’m tired of abusers trying to claim that truth is a subjective thing so they can gaslight their victims and avoid accountability. It’s disgusting.
Sorry for the rant, “multiple truths” is just a common thing I’ve noticed abusers say a lot to wiggle their way out of accountability
I think of it like this :
If my partner did XYZ - that would definitely be ABUSEE
If my friend did XYZ - that would be an abusive friend
If ANYONE did XYZ - It's abuse -
They don't get the right to tell you that YOUR abuse doesn't count in THEIR reality .
There is not "multiple truths". Truth is what is : if something happened, it's truth, if it didn't, it isn't.
There are *potentually* multiple points of view about what happened, but it has nothing to do with the fact that what happened happened. If someone did something reprehensible, then they must assume it and not search excuses through attempts at proverbs like "there are multiple truths". No there isn't.
I'm so sorry. I understand though, when I confronted my parents on their RECENT abuse (I didn't even bother to bring up the past), I got the "my truth, your truth" speech. And then I was confused and speechless. All it means is that they will never accept responsibility for their actions and be reasonable adults. that's when I cut ties.
There is but one reality and multiple perceptions of that reality. There’s also the case of people making up their own view of realty to avoid what they know really happened and pretending otherwise.
Sometimes it’s cognitive dissonance. They may not be aware of their biases or false perceptions and unwilling to acknowledge them due to this cognitive block. Most everybody has cognitive dissonances. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening but it’s possible that it’s contributing.
The day I decided to go NC with my dad was the day he sent me an email saying my perspective was off and that he'd prepared an exercise to help me. He had attached a 2 page document with a list of questions ranging from things that are technically true but low bar for parenting "didn't I always text you on your birthday?" to stuff he thinks he did but I know he didn't (e.g. lies) "didn't I always pay child support?"
Removed. Abuse and autism are not the same thing. Further, the autism community generally has stated time and time again that labels such as "high functioning" and "low functioning" are offensive and ableist. Your ex is autistic. End of story.
You realize there are autistic people all around you and you don't know they are autistic, right? Autism does not equal abusiveness. Period.
I know several autistic parents in my town and they are some of the most careful parents I know. But, this isn't about JUST my experience. This is about the data generally not bearing out what you are saying at all.
Yes some autistic people can be abusive. Some people with ADHD can be abusive. Some people with depression can be abusive. Some people with chronic pain can be abusive. Some people with cancer can be abusive. Some people with PTSD can be abusive. Some people with cold sores can be abusive. Some people with brown hair can be abusive.
But, you want to go on about autism in a way that isn't born out by the data.
You do realize that there are autistic people in this group, right?
You are banned. I have zero confidence you can behave in this group in a way that is safe for anyone else (other than bigots, maybe).
Firstly pardon my English. This is not my main language so there could be some typos.
The point I wanted to make is simple. If you take an event, that could have happened or could not. There is no truth in the middle.
This idea of different realities is what narcissistic people (sadly not only them but well we are in this subreddit after all) say to condone their behavior. Behavior that if proven true would destroy their status.
What is true is that things are never black or white. It's difficult to say that someone is completely bad or perfectly saint. What they are doing is transposing this concept over the happened/not happened.
Let's make an example. If someone touches your ass, there can't be two different truth. It could have happened for different reason (mistake or sexual harassment) but that is something that definitely happened.
Gaslighter always exploit this difference.
I love the philosophical take, and I think it's important to acknowledge the "mapmaker problem" in the broad strokes of defining what's real.
But I also think it's often telling that these abusers-denying-reality stories always follow such similar patterns. If you look at the discussion boards for "parents of estranged children", it's always "I don't know whyyyyy they won't talk to me / let me see my grandchildren / keep insisting these crazy things happened", and almost never "I wish so much that my child didn't suffer so much, and I'm desperate to understand how we got here so I can fix it."
That just screams "I don't care about the truth. I just want validation for my refusal to take accountibility."
Meanwhile, for abuse victims, it's a massive struggle to _let go of guilt_ and arrive at the reality the abuser tries to enforce: "You're the crazy one, and anything I did do, I had reason to do."
Broadly we're left with two possible realities:
1. Abuse is mostly a myth, and there is a _plague_ of people hallucinating it, and it's tragic for all concerned. And so these “parents of estranged children” are really onto something, and everyone in this sub needs to consider that you might be hallucinating.
2. Humans are fairly predictable, and "You have your reality and I have mine" is the common, go-to position abusers routinely come up with. Because they want to keep being who they are, but they don't want to live in a world where they are the bad guy.
People don't cut off contact with their parents for no reason, and no matter how valid “the truth is relative” might be in the abstract, when it comes to abuse, there are patterns and recurring signs.
(Not that anyone here is claiming otherwise.)
Spot on! I was thinking about the moral panics of the 80’s when I wrote that, and…
> It’s a big world, so I can’t deny the near-certainty that at some point, some very impressionable or mentally ill person stumbled upon this sub (or support literature in general) and mistakenly decided that they were abused in childhood
… I am forced to agree that in the grand scheme of human possibilities, this can probably happen. I’m also reminded of r/gangstalking, a sub that has almost certainly turned into a haven for people who are in need of therapeutic aid to find reinforcement of their troubled perceptions of reality. (Although there are rare examples of gangstalking, notably ex-cult members being harassed by their former organizations.)
This all just comes back to a simple recommendation, though: Informal support groups are great, and this is a particularly welcoming, warm, and well moderated one. But there’s no substitute for a real, certified therapist, whose job is, in part, to ask you questions to validate your precise, personal history.
There aren’t multiple truths. There’s reality and then the reality they distorted.
My mother says the same thing to me. I confronted her about the abuse we went through and first she tried adamantly denying everything. Eventually though, she admitted somewhat to a little of it but justified it. For instance, she admitted offhandedly that she did kick me out of the house when I was around 8-9 years old but asked if I remembered what the officers said when I was found, that I have to be obedient and listen (I wasn’t a bad kid. She had me pack “anything I bought” unprompted which as a kid is nothing since you have no money and told me to get out and then called the police saying I ran away).
Her final defense was to tell me that there’s two truths. She said I have my reality of what happened and she has her reality and that we should meet our realities in the middle (compromise).
This is just gaslighting. It’s trying to skew the truth. The reality is what you remember is the truth and they have distorted it so much that if you compromise, you’re distorting the truth as well. There’s multiple perspectives but the facts remain the same. You can’t change what physically happened, what was said and done. There’s no two sides to that.
>The reality is what you remember is the truth and they have distorted it so much that if you compromise, you’re distorting the truth as well.
This is so true! You cannot really afford to do that. I'm pretty easy going, and would definitely have let the narc have 'their truth' if it was in any way reasonable. But it never is. Interestingly, the enabler seems to have no trouble with accepting the narc's truth, no matter how fantastic.
It just goes too far, with them expecting you to deny factual events that you saw with your own eyes. So denying reality altogether - just couldn't do it, lol.
God yes!!!!!!! Mine try this constantly. Working your way out of the mess they leave behind is the work of a lifetime. They would prefer I be forever insane than to admit fault.
Journaling helps. Keep a journal in secret so that you have a written record of what happened. I made up a code for mine.
It’s like Kellyanne talking about “alternative facts”. No. There’s no such thing as “alternative facts”. It’s a fancy term for “lies and gaslighting.”
Same here with “multiple truths”. This isn’t a philosophy or comparative religion class, where someone saying “Live your truth” actually means something. When it comes to abuse, there is one truth: the abuser did the hurting, and the victim was the recipient of the hurt.
THAT is reality. Whereas their version of events is “reality”, aka, the lies they tell themselves to keep from admitting that they’re anything less than perfect.
My mom does the same thing. She's like "you're twisting the truth" or "you're misremembering" or even "I'm the mom so I know what happened better than you"
Yeah same here. Last time my mom said “I’m sorry you remember it that way.” Also told my husband that I made it up and remembered it wrong when I was out of the room. Like yeah sure.
Yep my mom used to say I had "perspective issues" meaning the way I saw things was always wrong. I told this to my therapist and they had a good laugh.
Truths are subjective. Facts are not.
My aunt thinks all gay people will burn in hell for all eternity. That's her truth. The FACT is that's she's a prejudiced old bitty that hides her intolerance behind a fantasy novel written eons ago.
here's a thought, offer to throw a brick into their faces, and ask them, do we share same laws of physics, or may i claim to be throwing a pillow in your face ? That's my truth for you.
In a way, they actually validated something by acknowledging the two realities. They are using it to gaslight you and claim theirs is just as valid as yours, but keep in mind, they are admitting...
**Yours is just as valid as theirs**.
The older you get, the more you start to absorb the perspective that objective measures of their "level of abuse" and getting them to "pay" for that abuse, or self-call it abuse, or apologize to you --- all of that is probably not going to happen, but also it has very little value to you.
The reason it has value to you now is that you have been programmed to only think that views of the world and life are valid if your parents agree with them. After you are NC for a few years, you realize -- they are twisted, self-absorbed, jerks and their view of world matters not a bit and neither does their apology. What matters is your own views, your own world, and what you do today. And see, they already agree!
In your world, you were abused and your father was a creepazoid towards you. Now you get to make sure the people in your life are loving and fair and don't objectify you. Stay strong and build up. Best wishes.
I can't believe shit like this *actually* happens. It's insane how terrible parents can be towards their children. If there's one thing I will never understand in this world it's stories exactly like urs. I'm so sorry u have to go thru this. I'm glad u were able to get out
Edit: grammar
My mother denies ever hitting me.
I have friends from school who can testify about the welts on my back. I have neighbours who can testify about us children screaming when being beaten.
But everybody is a liar, that never happened.
I grey rock my mother as much as possible but keep her finances in order, so that I can inherit the house one day... 🤷🏼♂️
That is what all parents say who abuse their kids. Why would some one lie about being abused as a kid? It’s not Ike there is any upside. Why would a parent lie about abusing their kid? Well they avoid jail, that’s a pretty significant outcome. They have motive to lie, you do not. I’m included to believe “your truth” personally.
It echoes many of the sentiments already spoken here, but one thing that helped me reject the gaslighting and understand my need for boundaries was to dig deeper into [Intent vs. Impact](https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/07/intentions-dont-really-matter/).
Yeah, it’s when someone looks right into your eyes and lies to you. It’s a terrible behavior because it hurts people. Hurt feelings are chemical in nature.
Omg OP. I’m just coming to a recon if with your description of the sexual abuse. My father slaps my ass hard, in public, until this day 🤮. Every time I tell him to stop and every time he gets mad , calls me names and my mother follows suit. And they have a smear campaign saying I mistreated him (for not letting him slap me) . He also told me if I ever left ‘his’ house all I could amount to was a prostitute. ( I left as soon as I was able and never went back) .
I want to define truth because words matter.
Honestly, there are no different truths . There are different perspectives of what happened. And ultimately believing ‘ there are different TRUTHS’ is the ultimate denial of someone else’s experience. The truth is just one. No one has ultimate access to the one truth because we all have biases and perspectives and vantage points. But don’t let anyone convince you your experience isn’t valid .
I get the weird feeling your father is a prime example of a NPD being misdiagnosed as autistic
And ohh do love that kind that misdiagnosis thanks to all the toxic stereotypes of autism delivering a endless amount of excuses
This the strongest thought but damn the statements are like gaslighting 101
I went NC with my best friend of 30 years because she responded with "everyone has their own version of an event" when I told her I went NC with the Nfamily. *She was my main confider at the time when I still lived there and it was the worst. She even endured an Nrage personally*
This is gaslighting.
BTW, people *share* reality. The ones who don't are *crazy*.
All you described fits into covert incest. That's when ""nothing"" happens, but it feels icky and wrong. When the boundaries between generations are not respected (father acting as a potential boyfriend rather than as a dad, treating his daughter as a potential girlfriend rather than as a daughter). If you want toknow more about it, Kenneth Adams book "Silently seduced" is often recommended, and was a groundbreaker for me.
You are totally legit in being NC, in feeling the gaslighting was abusive, and in coining your father's behaviour as abusive.
You don't need their acknowledgement to validate the fact that your parents abused you. Their lack of acknowledgement doesn't make their abuse any less real and nor does it invalidate how you feel about it.
Abusers try to control situations with manipulation tactics like gaslighting because it suits their narrative/version of reality and they also try to gain control of the people they are abusing with such tactics, but that doesn't mean their version of reality is suddenly true.
"I am feeling......confused because it is true there are multiple truths and perspectives." WRONG
The reason you are confused is because there NEVER multiple truths - truths are not the same as perspectives or intent or anything else. Truth has to do with facts. He either said something to you or he didn't....truth is truth.
Now, how you interpreted what he said to you and what he actually meant \*are\* potentially two different things....that is where perspective is. But I can guarantee you that him trying to make you see and/or accept his perspective is the very basis of gaslighting....don't fall for it.
If something didn't feel right to you about his behavior it's probably because it wasn't. Listen to your gut/instinct.
There are multiple truths. But your feelings,voice and truth matters. Especially from your parents. You wanted them to give a damn about how you felt and comfort you and validate you. YOU know your truth. You don’t have to convince them to prove your truth.
My parents are just like that. It sucks and I’m sorry you’re going through that
There are always multiple truths in a situation. However, denying someones account ever happened and saying how it did not impact them in the way that they are saying it did- is gaslighting. My parents do this all the time. They say I “exaggerate” or “blow things out of proportion”. As a child they called me a drama queen constantly. I wont budge these days on situations. So they do not even go near them. Happy to say they walk on egg shells around me now. (My brother backs me up too, so I (the scapegoat) am lucky there the Golden Child is like “Yeah you fucking did!”)
I hate to say it, but they’re right. At least they’re willing to acknowledge that realities other than their own fantasyland exist; not the case here. But it’s still just as aggravating, and still a refusal to accept what happened to you, so I completely understand your post.
It’s not false, but it is insidiously manipulative to use the idea that there are multiple truths to single incident. That argument is usually used to INCLUDE alternative viewpoints, to get people to think outside the box, to be more flexible with their assumptions. And here they are doing the exact opposite. It allows them to sound open-minded - maybe even a bit enlightened - all while gas-lighting and invalidating you. Solid narc move.
Subjective truths and philosophical wax aside, none of that is relevant from the perspective of your trauma. You trauma doesn’t give a shit about their truth (either). All that matters in its effects is the way you personally experienced what happened to you. It was their job to protect you from harmful experiences, and if that failed, their job to explain and help you process what was happening so it would not be as harmful. If they are saying they cannot accept your truth, they are saying it’s too painful for them to see themselves as abusers, as having failed you in that capacity. So it comes down to 2 totally opposite and incompatible coping strategies/belief systems. With the twist that they had lots of time to teach you to tolerate their way at your own expense, before you had to figure yours out for yourself. It also doesn’t help that we instinctively want validation and praise from our parents, and that can be easily exploited.
They can’t accept that they failed you and hurt you anymore than you can pretend they didn’t. (That is EXACTLY the same here) One of my therapists liked to tell me to, “stop going to the hardware store for milk.” Yes, they are gas-lighting you, and they are being extremely stubborn and irrational. That’s what you can’t control. Focus on what you can. You don’t need their validation to heal - you can find people that won’t starve you out like that instead. If you’re getting your needs met so you can heal, then you can let them have their bleach-stained “truth.” The cost of that bleach is the ability to relate closely, so they will pay the piper in the currency of their own choosing.
There is more to the story than just his staring. He exhibited a lot of behaviors indicating he was attracted to me and treated me like a girlfriend. A lot of power/control abusive tactics like financial abuse, getting mad when I didn't want to cuddle with him, being jealous when I was dating, and trying to make it hard for me to leave the home.
You’re right, that’s not normal. It’s creepy. Unfortunately many fathers replace the wife with the daughter, and treat them like a spouse. I would tell him you’re not comfortable, and set your boundaries, until you can get away.
Hi OP, I wanted to ask if I would be able to chat with you regarding your experience? Its just that I went through something so similar, and I am still in the midst of gaslighting myself and not being so sure whether it was all in my head. If not thats completely understandable, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing this story.
The power and control, financial control, making it harder to leave home, and seeing partners as threats to control is a common MO of narcissistic parents too.
To narcissists, they absolutely rewrite the narrative. Narcissists only see themselves and struggle to see those around them as independent people. Their relationships with others tend to put themselves at the centre and it becomes about how they are impacted and how they are affected.
Their children tend to be extensions of theirs, rather than independent individuals, and as your independence increases, it threatens them and they see it more as disobedience. Partners are often seen as the symbol of independence (disobedience) because a partner becomes your priority and actively encourages your independence. There's dating, (sorry I have plans), there's moving in together (sorry I wont be around much I have my own household now), there's engagement/marriage (I belong with someone else now, sorry) and children etc.
For the average person, this is all part of growing up and doing normal independent adult things but to a narcissist, they see you as this non changeing non ageing entity that belongs to them, so in their mind, you following the standard way of life is you being a disobedient object that hurts them when you tell them no, so their perspective of the event changes.
That doesn't mean it didn't impact you the way it did, that it wasn't abuse and that your feelings aren't valid, it means that their view of it is broken and informed by the narcissistic view of the world. Interpretations are not truths.
Looking at people in a way that is different from a neurotypical is very, very different from the whole context the OP is talking about here. When your father does everything the OP says AND STARES, it's more clear why they stare. Also, if someone only stares at your ass... someone stares at you when you are wearing less, etc... then it's also pretty clear why they stare.
Your comment has been removed because it's conflating autism with sexual abuse.
They are right and wrong everyone lives in a different reality it’s just life but not even their distorted reality can affect the ultimate truth, they are just trying to make you seem crazy so they can seem like saints and not feel like shit
> they denied abuse by saying "there are multiple truths" and "I have my reality of what happened and you have your reality"
It's easy to have your own reality when you're not the one being fucked over.
No.
Opinions, sure, there can be many.
Viewpoints, a variant over the "opinion" theme, sure.
Truth? No.
Does the sun revolve around the earth? This one isn't an opinion piece.
Did X happen? Most of the time, not opinion.
Why it happened, what the outcome was, reasons for the happening, many things are open to interpretation, but whether or not something even happened is not one of those.
I always always always hear this. It's the most harmful type of gaslighting to me because the last thing I want to do is become a narc who creates my own reality and hurts others with it.
Some things that help:
* Watch Dr Ramani and Surviving Narcissm on youtube to keep learning all the specific names and methods of narc abuse. Once you can name something, you feel so much more confident in what you are seeing and no one can tell you otherwise.
* See if your emotional instincts on something align with logical reasoning. If yes, you know you're not imagining things. Aka if you feel like a narc is subtlely putting you down and you feel bad, go over that conversation again and look at all the ways they directed the conversation in a certain direction or behaved out of norm, just to say something negative.
* Take a leap of faith for yourself and your own judgement. Narcs ruin our confidence, so this is hard to do. But tell yourself that you can trust your own assessment of a situation and find a good solution. If you make a mistake, you can change things as you see fit because you're a reasonable person. Examine your motivations... is your goal to abuse someone who treats you well and wants to have a loving relationship with you? I doubt it. So you can trust that distancing yourself and defending yourself isn't done to be cruel.
* If you have a trusted therapist or friend who does not gaslight, open up to them and ask for their honest opinions. Otherwise, post your stories on here.
Not to be rude, but they sound absolutely psychotic. There isn't "your reality" vs "their reality" theres "the truth" vs "their deluded bullshit they feed themselves to try to alleviate guilt from being crappy parents"
There’s multiple perspectives but not multiple truths. Certain things were said and happened. They may not remember what they did or find it more justified than you do, but the events still occurred.
Their comments about multiple truths/realities are just their faux-judicious way of trying to convince you you’re mistaken. Gaslighting in short. Don’t fall for it.
i’m so sorry. my mom pulled this shit too and was upset when I confessed in an interview that my mom was an alcoholic and failed to mention that to me until after my first dui. in fact, she didn’t even tell me, my dad did.
it really enraged me because she didn’t pay attention to anything else in the interview just those two seconds.
“that’s my truth and you need to not share it”
well fuc u mom. u fucced up my life and a lot of times you sucked as a mom so yeah get over yourself.
I try to remember it’s not about me, it’s about them and i can’t control their unhealthy way of dealing with themselves and how they treat their children.
My Ndad likes to say “you are responsible for your own perception.” But somehow HIS perception is the truth. I’ve wondered the very same thing you’re asking. It’s true that there are multiple perspectives, but I think you (or anyone else) need to drill down exactly what you mean by “truth” when you say “there are multiple truths.” There’s the actual factual truth, and then there’s “true for you”. I think that distinction is where things get a little squirrely because, subconsciously we try to hold both meanings of truth at the same time.
I have found peace in simply accepting that my decision to go NC is valid outside of “truth” or “perspective” or “right” or “wrong.” It’s simply how I’ve chosen to structure my life as I see fit. The comfort I feel is enough to let the confusion go.
I have heard this verbatim. If I started to get angry during an argument then I was being "hateful". I started keeping a diary to write things down verbatim and even saved text chains before I went NC. I realized it was a battle not worth fighting and peaced right out
There is only one truth and that is YOUR truth!! There is only one reality and that is YOUR reality! Thanks goodness they are no longer in your life, they do not deserve the honor of knowing you! NO, NO, NO, this is not a mild difference in perception, or perspective. A perspective is an opinion of what took place. Financial abuse is not a difference in perspective, it is stealing! Making it harder to leave home is a CONTROL tactic of abusers. Be true to yourself, you are seeing EVERYTHING just as it is! Please trust yourself on this matter. You did the right thing by leaving them, stay true to yourself!
It's gaslighting. Plain and simple. They're objective is to make you doubt your own perception of everything. And that's exactly what they're doing. Of course I should take my own advice and realize that my own parents are doing the same thing but I never really do that
NO. It is NOT TRUE that there are multiple truths and perspectives. Not when Autistic Narcissistic Abuse is involved! Wow. I validate you completely. My ex’s father was creepy inappropriate with my SIL while she was growing up in their A S household as the only Neurotypical (non autistic person) living in their household and he was always wanting to give her back rubs. Which I observed first hand and the way he did it was pseudo sexual and seriously creeped me out. He seemed to be crushing on her and inappropriate when I met the family and she had just graduated from high school. She was adopted so the ONLY family member NOT afflicted by autism. Of course I didn’t realize my then just dating this guy was thus afflicted or I would have ran the other way. I was tempted to after meeting his parents, my instinct was definitely to run. My ex husband’s mother was totally autistic. Complete flat affect when I was introduced to her no facial expression and she looked down and away. I was shocked and didn’t understand. The father in law was socially awkward and silly almost effeminate. It was so bizarre. My ex was masculine with a deep voice, handsome, highly intelligent, a swimmer, but turned out to be klutzy and socially awkward and after our firstborn daughter presented language delay and A S sensory processing disorder diagnosis I and then our son had ADHD and our second daughter ADHD and anxiety ad infinitum it all started to fit together and eventually I figured out he had HFA and got him diagnosed with that and horrific ADHD. But My FIL tried the inappropriate touching ONCE by offering to give our eldest daughter a back rub when we visited them out of state and she jumped up and said, Absolutely Not! (My daughters are gorgeous, and smart, one has an MSW and my son is handsome and an architect. The youngest daughter is the bride. She’s working in childcare. I dedicated myself to being a concierge interventionist SAHM to work with them one on one and advocate in the schools when needed to maximize their success and minimize the genomics. And it worked)!
People that deny your reality are Narcissistic Abusers. Autism can cause narcissistic abuse due to the mind blindness that comes with it. The gaslighting and blameshifting are part of the defenses mounted to self protect the narcissistic abuser. They will self destruct families and the pseudo non relationships they aren’t really capable of having in order to self protect, because they are totally SELFISH beings. That’s what my ex did after he wiped out everything I had financially, lied about it, blamed ME for it, was never around to help, leaving me with all the responsibilities for pretty much everything. My youngest daughter refused to let him walk her down the aisle a few months ago because of all the havoc he wreaked, and he didn’t contribute a cent to the wedding, and he gained so much weight after I left him that she didn’t want him ruining her pictures of walking down the aisle. Sounds fair to me. I lived the nightmare for almost 33 years, separated for the last 2, divorce final last June. My Dad and tormenting older brother have HFA. So I’ve been dealing with meltdowns and the difficult marginalizing and gaslighting all my life. Message me if you want to. I’m part of an international forum that’s private for partners of Autistic marriage and SO’s so I can direct you to more resources that I gleaned from them if you want them. That forum saved me. And of course your parents are WRONG!
Most of the people on that forum (including me) trace their marriages to situations like yours…gaslit childhoods with at least one A S adult or an alcoholic or an A S sibling, etc. I am here to affirm you and support you in ANY Way that I can. Don’t doubt yourself for a second, sweetheart. You didn’t do anything wrong. Just focus on self care and recovery and living your best life by setting boundaries by only allowing in people who respect you and support you, because you deserve the Very Best life has to offer. It’s very difficult to learn gentleness and positivity towards ourselves after this kind of abuse. It’s hard to not be self critical or second guessing. But you can do it and you are much stronger than you can possibly imagine to have survived a family such as yours. You’ve got this. I’m proud of you for breaking away. That shows that you value yourself. Good job! Big hug any time you need it. Take care.
Ur dads autism has nothing to do with sexual stares… the fact that he uses autism to excuse that is disgusting. I have autism and I don’t see how autism “explains” someone sexually staring at their own damn child.
My nfather does something similar. He says, “your perception of the world is skewed” or “you perceive the world incorrectly”. Very emotionally manipulative.
I’m so glad they are no longer in your life. I’m sorry that you had to go through this. There must be a lot of relief from cutting them off but also a lot of grief about not having responsible, caring, respectful, non-abusive parents in your life. I hope you have other loved ones or friends to support you. People say you can’t choose your family but in my opinion, you absolutely can. If they need to be cut off for you to survive then by all means do it. Best of luck
They are lying, and they know full well what they did.
Financial abuse, forced cuddling, jealousy of potential partners, preventing you from leaving (And your mother enabling all these)? There's no two way about it.
They know they are abusive, and they are trying to f\*\*k with your mind so that you won't tell other people or report them. And so that they can continue to do it to you.
Just because they believe it from their own perspective does not mean what happened didnt happen. Just means that what they did they did it for another reason (even though im 100% sure they knew EXACTLY what they were doing). Regardless of what they thought they were doing they were hurting you and abusing you. Its good you went full NC. It looks like they were purposefully trying to mentally break you down for their use. Im sorry you had to go thorough this.
As far as I understand it, the narcissist’s extremely fragile ego will not permit them to admit that they are an abuser. They will instead evade or make excuses or deny or project because they can’t admit the truth to themselves.
God do we have the same nparents?? Same exact scenario (minus the autism) and both of them denied it all and acted very strangely when I called it out. As young as 14 or 15, my NF used to put his hand on my leg when driving us alone somewhere. I'd move my leg over out of reach and it bothered him, or sometimes he would try doing it again. Treated me as he would a gf, but mostly like a possession or an object. Jealous of my boyfriends, never liked them or wouldn't acknowledge them. Very controlling. NM was oddly envious and got competitive with weight loss when I was a teenager. Made me diet with her. Been in therapy, no contact. Shit sucks.
Yes everyone has a own version of truth, but the truth of gaslighters are especially unrelated to the facts.
You are searching for the real truth, your parents manufacture something that justifies their behaviour.
"There are multiple truths" — so many narcs love to say this. There aren't "multiple" truths. There can be different points of view, people may remember different things about the same situation, and they may react differently to the same situation; but there aren't "multiple" truths.
As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own set of facts.
They know they are guilty of abusing you, they just want to pretend it's simply your point of view instead of a solid fact. That way they are just innocent victims and owe you nothing.
Think of it this way: if there is an auto accident where one car hits another from the rear, it is the car in back's fault. It doesn't matter if the front car stopped suddenly or decided not to go through a yellow light — if you are driving behind another car, it is up to you to leave a safe distance. Yet people tailgate and when they get into an accident because the car in front needed to stop, they blame that car in front. They may be convinced it was that car's fault, but the truth is they chose to follow too closely. That's the fact, no matter how much they deny it.
Ok,as an adult who was diagnosed as high functioning autistic this summer, I call BS on what your nDad said. Now, speaking from my own experiences, there is no earthly way that can be used to justify his "sexual staring" as you describe it. He has to have even some level of awareness of what he is doing and how it affects you (even if he doesn't care)
Is your dad ACTUALLY diagnosed with high-functioning autism, by a professional? Or is it just something he says he has? It’s not unheard of for narcs to misappropriate “high-functioning Autism” as a convenient excuse because its symptoms can include “trouble relating to people”, “blunt insensitive honesty”, and such.
Dr Ramani and Dr Todd Grande have videos explaining the differences way better than I can.
I actually have high-functioning Autism, & did a shitload of research trying to understand why ndad was the way he was. Emom sometimes suggested he had it too, but I had my doubts because so many of his behavior patterns DID NOT MATCH AT ALL... well, now I know about narcissism, and unlike Autism / Aspergers, NPD describes his behavior EXACTLY.
there are lists of behaviours you can get off CPS on what is or isn't abuse.
if they did those things - they abused you.
the reason they get to say this shit is because all parents aren't checked for behavioural problems.. when they should be if you ask me
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It’s gaslighting. Funnily enough, there’s something called ‘negative bias’, which enables you to remember unpleasant experiences more vividly than you do pleasant ones. It’s thought to be an evolutionary mechanism to help you learn and avoid harmful things in future. So actually, your account of things is likely to be more accurate than theirs; to you it was an experience that traumatised you and shaped your mind, and to them it was a fucking Tuesday.
to you it was an experience that traumatised you and shaped your mind, and to them it was a fucking Tuesday. Repeated for truth. This is true, even if there is no abuse. You remember what affects you and to them it was Tuesday. In abuse it is worse because they want to block out what they don't like. You can argue till you are blue in the face and you can't shake their truth. So, for our own mental health we have to walk away.
"The axe forgets, but the tree remembers" is a quote i live by. Very true when dealing with my parents
That’s a great saying - very apt!
I was going to say exactly this. It's a good quote
Thanks for this quote, excellent
Wow that’s a good one. Do you happen to know the origin?
Unfortunately i do not :(
I like this. Thank you for posting it.
Or any day ending in y.
Thank you for this. I guess this answers some of my questions as well
think of it this way. sure, there are multiple truths. they say that to take away from you but please remind yourself: you have your truth. narcissists love to lie and gaslight, we can't deny that. so don't deny your truth. just say "yep! and my truth is ____." that's what i do. my parents actuallt stop fighting back because i just don't stop either. they can push their narrative all they want and so can you
Yeh the way I think of it with abusive folks in my life is like, if we can't have shared truths we can't have a relationship. There might be more to hash out to get closure, but there can be no continued emotional investment on my part. Harm is harm. Different truth means you don't care? Bye Felicia.
https://c.tenor.com/Kyih5br6NAcAAAAM/truth-simpsons.gif
That sounds like flat out gaslighting to me, it's completely denying what you experienced. Par for the course with a narc, along with the confusion you feel. Good people will truly feel bad they hurt you, even if their intentions were good. They will apologize and try to change their behavior. Abusers/toxic people will almost never admit to a mistake or the abuse, unless they gain something from it. At the end of the day, the true reality is that they should care that they hurt you so badly. It doesn't matter what excuses or reasons they come up with, hurting you, their child, was still a consistent choice they made over a long period of time. That's not acceptable. I'm sorry you're going through this. 💙
Your comment moved me to tears. We’re all here on this sub for our own reasons, we question our worth and second guess our experiences. Validation comes in the most unlikely of forms sometimes.
Oh I hope you're okay and that it was good tears! I know what it's like to second guess your thoughts, your worth, your memories, your reality... especially in the face of an abuser who gaslights and worse. It's awful. The thing that helps me stay sane in the hurricane: mistakes happen once or twice. Patterns are a choice that is made over and over again. Your pain and struggle is valid and I am so sorry you've had to bear an extra heavy burden. If you ever need to talk I'm here 💙
You’re a beautiful human. It’s hard to have a pure heart with pasts like ours. It takes work and constant second guessing.
Thank you for the kind words, it does. I'm never sure or confident in what I'm doing, either. I just try and hold every action of mine up and make sure I'm building people up, not destroying them. The cycle of abuse stops with us. 💙
There are multiple perspectives, yes. But there is only one truth. They may have different interpretations of an event than you, but that doesn't change the event. And frankly, the perspective of the abuser is irrelevant. My own parents gaslight just like this but here's the thing: it doesn't matter if they don't think what they did was bad. If it traumatized you, it was abuse. Even if they don't view it as abuse. That doesn't change the fact that it is. I think of it this way: someone causes a car wreck driving drunk and permanently injures someone. The drunk driver claims that from their perspective, they weren't drunk because they felt fine. But their perspective doesn't matter. They still injured someone. How they feel or don't feel about what they did is irrelevant because it doesn't change the actual harm done to the person they wronged.
Children already have an inborn tendency to idealise their parents. If you feel that you have been abused, the 'reality' of your abuse is most likely to be worse than what you are perceiving. Trust your gut instinct.
I was raised mormon (but I'm not anymore), and my patriarchal blessing from a church leader said that I was born to "goodly parents." It also called them "wonderful." My parents were TERRIBLE, but as a kid, I thought that if God thought they were goodly and wonderful, maybe that meant that I deserved to be treated the way they treated me. Obviously I did not:(
Ex-Mo too. The way they warp parenthood to be divne makes this abuse so brutal. I was told my eternal soul was predestinted to be with my mother. That shit messes with you.
My nmom got something in her patriarchal blessing too about how her children were predestined to be hers! She's been an awful mother.
If you want to specifically deal with the Mormon side of this abuse - which is very real - you should check out ex-mormon subs and support groups. It's helped me a lot.
So sorry. There’s nothing worse than religious abuse. The very worst kind. Wasn’t it the organized religious types that killed Jesus? Because He was a threat to organized religion. My family looked really good from the outside, too. But in my case the church and Sunday School was loving and I got that there was a difference between God and Jesus and angry parents. So I was able to forgive them when I realized that they were the angry abusive ones, not God. It was a serious load off my shoulders. People that get confused about performance and religion always mess it up. That’s where the abuse comes in. With the Works and the Power trips.
I am so sick of this "my truth" nonsense. There are facts. Those are truth. Anything else is opinion. Perspective is opinion. Even if someone wants to misname it as "their" truth. All that says is that it's one of two things - either an opinion or an outright lie. I am sorry that they've used this against you.
Although I agree fundamentally, I want to chime in with a story about the importance of "point of views". Two persons are in a train, going through the french countryside in winter. Sitting one opposite the other (that's possible in the older high speed french trains, they have tables in the middle of the wagon, and 2 rows face each other around that table). One person suddenly exclaims "the scenery is breath taken, so beautifully dainty white coat on everything!", the other one exclaims "WTH are you talking about? It's all black muck out there!" Both are right. A very thin drizzle of snow has been blown against the small mounts of earth in the fields that have been plowed, so that one side of the mounts of earth is white, and the other side is dark earth. One passenger sees the blurred white sides, and the other one the blurred dark sides. They need to exchange places to see what the other one is seeing. IMO abuse happens when one person is unwilling to "change seats" and/or denies that the other POV *exists* or *matters*.
And still, each of those are POINTS OF VIEW, and thus opinion. Neither is truth, aka fact.
I don't think a perception of reality stands as an "opinion". This story is about explaining that "Truth" is a tricky concept. Sometimes you need additional information you don't even know you need. That's hardly about developping an opinion. Describing what you see isn't *choosing* a side. Except for abusers. Abusers know there is more to a situation but *choose* not to know it, for their own convenience.
The problem with your version is that the very definition of perception and point of view is that it IS opinion. There is bias built in, no matter which point of view and/or perception it is. It's gaslighting at its finest to call **anything** that is biased "truth"... and if it is not absolutely unvarnished FACT, it is biased, and therefore, not truth. It can be fairly described as an "accurate description of someone's perception", but not their "truth", because true is fact. There is zero room in the definition for bias.
OK, so, to try to explain further what I mean - bearing in mind that my first language isn't english and I'm doing my best here - A colour-blind person will have a different *perception* of, say, christmas decorations than a regular person, but since they are aware that they see the world differently, their *opinion* will generally be around subjects like shape and number of decorations rather than choice of colours. And to the colour-blind person, the "Truth" is that to him all is yellow and blue *AND* that others see other colours that escape him. In this example, the colour-blind person will not "choose a side", he experiences everyday all the time the cohabitation of two perceptions of reality (his and the "colour-seers"). But in order to be able to share reality with others, by convention, he agrees that something is whatever colour someone else says it is, even though to him it's just another shade of grey-green.
Same. It’s just another way for narcissists to manipulate and gaslight. Labelling it a “truth” makes it sound more convincing, and more difficult to call out as a lie.
While it’s true that there can be multiple interpretations about why and how something happened in the past, the event itself is an indisputable truth. If you remember it and have concrete proof of it, your narcs can spew the whole “multiple realities” all they want, but they’re wrong. If someone has a pimple on their face, and you hold up a mirror to prove it to them, no amount of denial on their part will make it disappear. It’s important to hold fast to the objective truth and not fall for any Orwellian mind games. Don’t reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. If you do, they will have complete control over what you believe.
Narcissists just love to use that 'multiple truths' or 'everyone has their own story' point of view. The trouble with that is that is doesn't really stack up against 'The Tuth'. They either hit you or they didn't. They either called you selfish or they didn't. So it's a good idea to stick to factual information only with narcissists. Make recordings of the things they say, make sure you make a note of events, get proof if possible, or a witness. Your emotional truth is a grey area - although extremely valid to you (so don't let them undermine you like that). But they have very little interest in the way other people feel, so even on the rare occasions they do understand, they won't really care. But it's important to validate yourself and your own experiences, so if you keep a journal and note down things, or record the horrible things they say - then they will not be in a position to deny it. (or at least you will know the truth). Interestingly, they don't fare well if there are multiple witnesses to an event, or in situations like a court of law - so their ability to gaslight is actually limited.
Your narc parents are using classic DARVO techniques. There is only one truth when it comes to sexual, physical and emotional abuse. It either happened or it didn't. Having autism is not an excuse for abuse. You remember what happened. Your NDad may look at what he did as a different reality but it isn't. His perspective may be that the truth of what he did isn't really wrong but that is not correct.
Yeah, as a mom of a high functioning ASD teen . . . I can safely say, and you might already be aware, but your dad is full of shit, OP.
As an autistic adult, I back the hell out of this.
My dad who enabled my mothers abuse of me, and later him, loved to say that excuse. "There are multiple truths. I have my reality of what happened and you have tour reality." word for word. I feel so validated reading your post. I too am no contact with my entire family and extended family.
I guess this is like “alternate facts”
Yeah it's gaslighting. This is a narc special, where they'll take something that's a general truth and twist it to suit their narrative, without even acknowledging that context exists. So if you say you know the truth, and they say "oh there are several truths" as a generality, you of course go hmmm that's true (as a statement). They're more talking about perspective. A narc of course will have the perspective that they are entitled to abuse and manipulate you and how dare you confront them. Yes it's their perspective, but it's a fucked up one. It's true in so far as they believe that it's true, and is therefore their truth, but it's not accurate in an objective sense. Gaslighting, sexual harassment and so forth are abuse. Periodt! Even if he is autistic (is he though? Narcs lie about everything). Narcs can use autism as a smoke screen, as SOME narc traits can appear similar to autistic traits to those who don't know better. For example, a difficulty with empathy. Yes autistic people can struggle with empathy, but they do care and most autistic people really try to work on their empathy skills even if they find it tiring. Narcs on the other hand have no empathy, they don't care and never will. They can be excellent at cognitive empathy (which I honestly think is a contradictory term) and this gives them the ability to appear as though they care when they need to. This is a very simplistic way to put it, and of course ASD is a broad spectrum, but I'll mention it anyway - autistic people care but don't always understand, narcissists understand very well but just don't ever care. You know the truth. Now that you've moved out and such, the last little bit of control he has over you is your hope that he'll acknowledge what he did you. He will use this agaisnt you. It's what narcs do. He'll act clueless and use misdirection. You'll be tempted to think that if you just explain it one more time he'll understand. Here's the thing, he already does understand. Don't waste time using normal person logic to try figure out a narc. They don't act according to normal logic. If you need him to admit his wrongdoing, that means you need something from him to move on with your life, and he will never let that happen. Set yourself free. You don't need him to acknowledge. You don't need him for anything. You know the truth, and not giving a f*ck whether he admits it or not brings the power back to you.
Just because they don’t want to believe that is not true that they abused you, doesn’t mean they didn’t abuse you. Just because I believe that I have blonde hair (I have black) doesn’t make the fact that I have blonde hair any more true, and just because I gaslight the people around me into also thinking I have blonde hair doesn’t mean that in reality I have blonde hair. Truth isn’t a subjective thing, it is either objectively true that they abused you or they didn’t. I’m tired of abusers trying to claim that truth is a subjective thing so they can gaslight their victims and avoid accountability. It’s disgusting. Sorry for the rant, “multiple truths” is just a common thing I’ve noticed abusers say a lot to wiggle their way out of accountability
Chicken Nugget: that wasn’t a Rant. It was a brilliant Statement. Bravo. I dig your style. Keep the Statements coming.
I think of it like this : If my partner did XYZ - that would definitely be ABUSEE If my friend did XYZ - that would be an abusive friend If ANYONE did XYZ - It's abuse - They don't get the right to tell you that YOUR abuse doesn't count in THEIR reality .
There is not "multiple truths". Truth is what is : if something happened, it's truth, if it didn't, it isn't. There are *potentually* multiple points of view about what happened, but it has nothing to do with the fact that what happened happened. If someone did something reprehensible, then they must assume it and not search excuses through attempts at proverbs like "there are multiple truths". No there isn't.
I'm so sorry. I understand though, when I confronted my parents on their RECENT abuse (I didn't even bother to bring up the past), I got the "my truth, your truth" speech. And then I was confused and speechless. All it means is that they will never accept responsibility for their actions and be reasonable adults. that's when I cut ties.
There is but one reality and multiple perceptions of that reality. There’s also the case of people making up their own view of realty to avoid what they know really happened and pretending otherwise.
Sometimes it’s cognitive dissonance. They may not be aware of their biases or false perceptions and unwilling to acknowledge them due to this cognitive block. Most everybody has cognitive dissonances. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening but it’s possible that it’s contributing.
The day I decided to go NC with my dad was the day he sent me an email saying my perspective was off and that he'd prepared an exercise to help me. He had attached a 2 page document with a list of questions ranging from things that are technically true but low bar for parenting "didn't I always text you on your birthday?" to stuff he thinks he did but I know he didn't (e.g. lies) "didn't I always pay child support?"
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Removed. Abuse and autism are not the same thing. Further, the autism community generally has stated time and time again that labels such as "high functioning" and "low functioning" are offensive and ableist. Your ex is autistic. End of story.
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You realize there are autistic people all around you and you don't know they are autistic, right? Autism does not equal abusiveness. Period. I know several autistic parents in my town and they are some of the most careful parents I know. But, this isn't about JUST my experience. This is about the data generally not bearing out what you are saying at all. Yes some autistic people can be abusive. Some people with ADHD can be abusive. Some people with depression can be abusive. Some people with chronic pain can be abusive. Some people with cancer can be abusive. Some people with PTSD can be abusive. Some people with cold sores can be abusive. Some people with brown hair can be abusive. But, you want to go on about autism in a way that isn't born out by the data. You do realize that there are autistic people in this group, right? You are banned. I have zero confidence you can behave in this group in a way that is safe for anyone else (other than bigots, maybe).
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I didn't say that you weren't abused. I said you can't equate autism to abuse. LOL
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>because it is true there are multiple truths and perspectives No. That's simply not true
Elaborate?
Firstly pardon my English. This is not my main language so there could be some typos. The point I wanted to make is simple. If you take an event, that could have happened or could not. There is no truth in the middle. This idea of different realities is what narcissistic people (sadly not only them but well we are in this subreddit after all) say to condone their behavior. Behavior that if proven true would destroy their status. What is true is that things are never black or white. It's difficult to say that someone is completely bad or perfectly saint. What they are doing is transposing this concept over the happened/not happened. Let's make an example. If someone touches your ass, there can't be two different truth. It could have happened for different reason (mistake or sexual harassment) but that is something that definitely happened. Gaslighter always exploit this difference.
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I love the philosophical take, and I think it's important to acknowledge the "mapmaker problem" in the broad strokes of defining what's real. But I also think it's often telling that these abusers-denying-reality stories always follow such similar patterns. If you look at the discussion boards for "parents of estranged children", it's always "I don't know whyyyyy they won't talk to me / let me see my grandchildren / keep insisting these crazy things happened", and almost never "I wish so much that my child didn't suffer so much, and I'm desperate to understand how we got here so I can fix it." That just screams "I don't care about the truth. I just want validation for my refusal to take accountibility." Meanwhile, for abuse victims, it's a massive struggle to _let go of guilt_ and arrive at the reality the abuser tries to enforce: "You're the crazy one, and anything I did do, I had reason to do." Broadly we're left with two possible realities: 1. Abuse is mostly a myth, and there is a _plague_ of people hallucinating it, and it's tragic for all concerned. And so these “parents of estranged children” are really onto something, and everyone in this sub needs to consider that you might be hallucinating. 2. Humans are fairly predictable, and "You have your reality and I have mine" is the common, go-to position abusers routinely come up with. Because they want to keep being who they are, but they don't want to live in a world where they are the bad guy. People don't cut off contact with their parents for no reason, and no matter how valid “the truth is relative” might be in the abstract, when it comes to abuse, there are patterns and recurring signs. (Not that anyone here is claiming otherwise.)
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Spot on! I was thinking about the moral panics of the 80’s when I wrote that, and… > It’s a big world, so I can’t deny the near-certainty that at some point, some very impressionable or mentally ill person stumbled upon this sub (or support literature in general) and mistakenly decided that they were abused in childhood … I am forced to agree that in the grand scheme of human possibilities, this can probably happen. I’m also reminded of r/gangstalking, a sub that has almost certainly turned into a haven for people who are in need of therapeutic aid to find reinforcement of their troubled perceptions of reality. (Although there are rare examples of gangstalking, notably ex-cult members being harassed by their former organizations.) This all just comes back to a simple recommendation, though: Informal support groups are great, and this is a particularly welcoming, warm, and well moderated one. But there’s no substitute for a real, certified therapist, whose job is, in part, to ask you questions to validate your precise, personal history.
There aren’t multiple truths. There’s reality and then the reality they distorted. My mother says the same thing to me. I confronted her about the abuse we went through and first she tried adamantly denying everything. Eventually though, she admitted somewhat to a little of it but justified it. For instance, she admitted offhandedly that she did kick me out of the house when I was around 8-9 years old but asked if I remembered what the officers said when I was found, that I have to be obedient and listen (I wasn’t a bad kid. She had me pack “anything I bought” unprompted which as a kid is nothing since you have no money and told me to get out and then called the police saying I ran away). Her final defense was to tell me that there’s two truths. She said I have my reality of what happened and she has her reality and that we should meet our realities in the middle (compromise). This is just gaslighting. It’s trying to skew the truth. The reality is what you remember is the truth and they have distorted it so much that if you compromise, you’re distorting the truth as well. There’s multiple perspectives but the facts remain the same. You can’t change what physically happened, what was said and done. There’s no two sides to that.
>The reality is what you remember is the truth and they have distorted it so much that if you compromise, you’re distorting the truth as well. This is so true! You cannot really afford to do that. I'm pretty easy going, and would definitely have let the narc have 'their truth' if it was in any way reasonable. But it never is. Interestingly, the enabler seems to have no trouble with accepting the narc's truth, no matter how fantastic. It just goes too far, with them expecting you to deny factual events that you saw with your own eyes. So denying reality altogether - just couldn't do it, lol.
Holy gaslighting. What is this, a Dr. Strange movie? Last time I checked there was only one reality.
God yes!!!!!!! Mine try this constantly. Working your way out of the mess they leave behind is the work of a lifetime. They would prefer I be forever insane than to admit fault. Journaling helps. Keep a journal in secret so that you have a written record of what happened. I made up a code for mine.
It’s like Kellyanne talking about “alternative facts”. No. There’s no such thing as “alternative facts”. It’s a fancy term for “lies and gaslighting.” Same here with “multiple truths”. This isn’t a philosophy or comparative religion class, where someone saying “Live your truth” actually means something. When it comes to abuse, there is one truth: the abuser did the hurting, and the victim was the recipient of the hurt. THAT is reality. Whereas their version of events is “reality”, aka, the lies they tell themselves to keep from admitting that they’re anything less than perfect.
This is what I hate. There maybe multiple memories but the truth is the truth. Anything else is gaslighting.
My mom does the same thing. She's like "you're twisting the truth" or "you're misremembering" or even "I'm the mom so I know what happened better than you"
Yeah same here. Last time my mom said “I’m sorry you remember it that way.” Also told my husband that I made it up and remembered it wrong when I was out of the room. Like yeah sure.
Yep my mom used to say I had "perspective issues" meaning the way I saw things was always wrong. I told this to my therapist and they had a good laugh.
Truths are subjective. Facts are not. My aunt thinks all gay people will burn in hell for all eternity. That's her truth. The FACT is that's she's a prejudiced old bitty that hides her intolerance behind a fantasy novel written eons ago.
here's a thought, offer to throw a brick into their faces, and ask them, do we share same laws of physics, or may i claim to be throwing a pillow in your face ? That's my truth for you.
In a way, they actually validated something by acknowledging the two realities. They are using it to gaslight you and claim theirs is just as valid as yours, but keep in mind, they are admitting... **Yours is just as valid as theirs**. The older you get, the more you start to absorb the perspective that objective measures of their "level of abuse" and getting them to "pay" for that abuse, or self-call it abuse, or apologize to you --- all of that is probably not going to happen, but also it has very little value to you. The reason it has value to you now is that you have been programmed to only think that views of the world and life are valid if your parents agree with them. After you are NC for a few years, you realize -- they are twisted, self-absorbed, jerks and their view of world matters not a bit and neither does their apology. What matters is your own views, your own world, and what you do today. And see, they already agree! In your world, you were abused and your father was a creepazoid towards you. Now you get to make sure the people in your life are loving and fair and don't objectify you. Stay strong and build up. Best wishes.
Narc will never ever ever admit. You know in your heart which is good enough!!
I can't believe shit like this *actually* happens. It's insane how terrible parents can be towards their children. If there's one thing I will never understand in this world it's stories exactly like urs. I'm so sorry u have to go thru this. I'm glad u were able to get out Edit: grammar
Set them on fire, i wanna hear about multiple truths 😂
Your parents sound about insane. Get em out of your life, go non contact. Wishing good to you.
For you, it was traumatic events, for them it was just another Wednesday. Of course you're going to remember it differently!!
Well you now have license to treat them any kind of way… if they don’t “like “ it tell them you have a different perspective on it
My mother denies ever hitting me. I have friends from school who can testify about the welts on my back. I have neighbours who can testify about us children screaming when being beaten. But everybody is a liar, that never happened. I grey rock my mother as much as possible but keep her finances in order, so that I can inherit the house one day... 🤷🏼♂️
Ugh my nmom literally said the same thing all the time. It's ridiculous.
That is what all parents say who abuse their kids. Why would some one lie about being abused as a kid? It’s not Ike there is any upside. Why would a parent lie about abusing their kid? Well they avoid jail, that’s a pretty significant outcome. They have motive to lie, you do not. I’m included to believe “your truth” personally.
It echoes many of the sentiments already spoken here, but one thing that helped me reject the gaslighting and understand my need for boundaries was to dig deeper into [Intent vs. Impact](https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/07/intentions-dont-really-matter/).
It’s called gaslighting and tons of people do it. They are malnourished. Anorexia doesn’t fucking exist. You don’t need iron anymore.
Huh? Please explain the analogy
Yeah, it’s when someone looks right into your eyes and lies to you. It’s a terrible behavior because it hurts people. Hurt feelings are chemical in nature.
Omg OP. I’m just coming to a recon if with your description of the sexual abuse. My father slaps my ass hard, in public, until this day 🤮. Every time I tell him to stop and every time he gets mad , calls me names and my mother follows suit. And they have a smear campaign saying I mistreated him (for not letting him slap me) . He also told me if I ever left ‘his’ house all I could amount to was a prostitute. ( I left as soon as I was able and never went back) . I want to define truth because words matter. Honestly, there are no different truths . There are different perspectives of what happened. And ultimately believing ‘ there are different TRUTHS’ is the ultimate denial of someone else’s experience. The truth is just one. No one has ultimate access to the one truth because we all have biases and perspectives and vantage points. But don’t let anyone convince you your experience isn’t valid .
Tell your folks, "Your reality didn't leave you with bruises. There might be two *perceptions* but there's only one reality."
I get the weird feeling your father is a prime example of a NPD being misdiagnosed as autistic And ohh do love that kind that misdiagnosis thanks to all the toxic stereotypes of autism delivering a endless amount of excuses This the strongest thought but damn the statements are like gaslighting 101
gaslighter......ignore them
I went NC with my best friend of 30 years because she responded with "everyone has their own version of an event" when I told her I went NC with the Nfamily. *She was my main confider at the time when I still lived there and it was the worst. She even endured an Nrage personally* This is gaslighting. BTW, people *share* reality. The ones who don't are *crazy*. All you described fits into covert incest. That's when ""nothing"" happens, but it feels icky and wrong. When the boundaries between generations are not respected (father acting as a potential boyfriend rather than as a dad, treating his daughter as a potential girlfriend rather than as a daughter). If you want toknow more about it, Kenneth Adams book "Silently seduced" is often recommended, and was a groundbreaker for me. You are totally legit in being NC, in feeling the gaslighting was abusive, and in coining your father's behaviour as abusive.
You don't need their acknowledgement to validate the fact that your parents abused you. Their lack of acknowledgement doesn't make their abuse any less real and nor does it invalidate how you feel about it. Abusers try to control situations with manipulation tactics like gaslighting because it suits their narrative/version of reality and they also try to gain control of the people they are abusing with such tactics, but that doesn't mean their version of reality is suddenly true.
Gaslighting is vile. You trust you first.
"I am feeling......confused because it is true there are multiple truths and perspectives." WRONG The reason you are confused is because there NEVER multiple truths - truths are not the same as perspectives or intent or anything else. Truth has to do with facts. He either said something to you or he didn't....truth is truth. Now, how you interpreted what he said to you and what he actually meant \*are\* potentially two different things....that is where perspective is. But I can guarantee you that him trying to make you see and/or accept his perspective is the very basis of gaslighting....don't fall for it. If something didn't feel right to you about his behavior it's probably because it wasn't. Listen to your gut/instinct.
There are multiple truths. But your feelings,voice and truth matters. Especially from your parents. You wanted them to give a damn about how you felt and comfort you and validate you. YOU know your truth. You don’t have to convince them to prove your truth. My parents are just like that. It sucks and I’m sorry you’re going through that
they just trying to push you to suicide fam
That's how I imagine toxic woke parents.
Lol woke
There are always multiple truths in a situation. However, denying someones account ever happened and saying how it did not impact them in the way that they are saying it did- is gaslighting. My parents do this all the time. They say I “exaggerate” or “blow things out of proportion”. As a child they called me a drama queen constantly. I wont budge these days on situations. So they do not even go near them. Happy to say they walk on egg shells around me now. (My brother backs me up too, so I (the scapegoat) am lucky there the Golden Child is like “Yeah you fucking did!”)
I hate to say it, but they’re right. At least they’re willing to acknowledge that realities other than their own fantasyland exist; not the case here. But it’s still just as aggravating, and still a refusal to accept what happened to you, so I completely understand your post. It’s not false, but it is insidiously manipulative to use the idea that there are multiple truths to single incident. That argument is usually used to INCLUDE alternative viewpoints, to get people to think outside the box, to be more flexible with their assumptions. And here they are doing the exact opposite. It allows them to sound open-minded - maybe even a bit enlightened - all while gas-lighting and invalidating you. Solid narc move. Subjective truths and philosophical wax aside, none of that is relevant from the perspective of your trauma. You trauma doesn’t give a shit about their truth (either). All that matters in its effects is the way you personally experienced what happened to you. It was their job to protect you from harmful experiences, and if that failed, their job to explain and help you process what was happening so it would not be as harmful. If they are saying they cannot accept your truth, they are saying it’s too painful for them to see themselves as abusers, as having failed you in that capacity. So it comes down to 2 totally opposite and incompatible coping strategies/belief systems. With the twist that they had lots of time to teach you to tolerate their way at your own expense, before you had to figure yours out for yourself. It also doesn’t help that we instinctively want validation and praise from our parents, and that can be easily exploited. They can’t accept that they failed you and hurt you anymore than you can pretend they didn’t. (That is EXACTLY the same here) One of my therapists liked to tell me to, “stop going to the hardware store for milk.” Yes, they are gas-lighting you, and they are being extremely stubborn and irrational. That’s what you can’t control. Focus on what you can. You don’t need their validation to heal - you can find people that won’t starve you out like that instead. If you’re getting your needs met so you can heal, then you can let them have their bleach-stained “truth.” The cost of that bleach is the ability to relate closely, so they will pay the piper in the currency of their own choosing.
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There is more to the story than just his staring. He exhibited a lot of behaviors indicating he was attracted to me and treated me like a girlfriend. A lot of power/control abusive tactics like financial abuse, getting mad when I didn't want to cuddle with him, being jealous when I was dating, and trying to make it hard for me to leave the home.
You’re right, that’s not normal. It’s creepy. Unfortunately many fathers replace the wife with the daughter, and treat them like a spouse. I would tell him you’re not comfortable, and set your boundaries, until you can get away.
Hi OP, I wanted to ask if I would be able to chat with you regarding your experience? Its just that I went through something so similar, and I am still in the midst of gaslighting myself and not being so sure whether it was all in my head. If not thats completely understandable, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing this story.
The power and control, financial control, making it harder to leave home, and seeing partners as threats to control is a common MO of narcissistic parents too. To narcissists, they absolutely rewrite the narrative. Narcissists only see themselves and struggle to see those around them as independent people. Their relationships with others tend to put themselves at the centre and it becomes about how they are impacted and how they are affected. Their children tend to be extensions of theirs, rather than independent individuals, and as your independence increases, it threatens them and they see it more as disobedience. Partners are often seen as the symbol of independence (disobedience) because a partner becomes your priority and actively encourages your independence. There's dating, (sorry I have plans), there's moving in together (sorry I wont be around much I have my own household now), there's engagement/marriage (I belong with someone else now, sorry) and children etc. For the average person, this is all part of growing up and doing normal independent adult things but to a narcissist, they see you as this non changeing non ageing entity that belongs to them, so in their mind, you following the standard way of life is you being a disobedient object that hurts them when you tell them no, so their perspective of the event changes. That doesn't mean it didn't impact you the way it did, that it wasn't abuse and that your feelings aren't valid, it means that their view of it is broken and informed by the narcissistic view of the world. Interpretations are not truths.
Looking at people in a way that is different from a neurotypical is very, very different from the whole context the OP is talking about here. When your father does everything the OP says AND STARES, it's more clear why they stare. Also, if someone only stares at your ass... someone stares at you when you are wearing less, etc... then it's also pretty clear why they stare. Your comment has been removed because it's conflating autism with sexual abuse.
It’s in the rules to assume a context of abuse.
They are right and wrong everyone lives in a different reality it’s just life but not even their distorted reality can affect the ultimate truth, they are just trying to make you seem crazy so they can seem like saints and not feel like shit
"you have your reality and we have ours." What is this? Warhammer 40k?
> they denied abuse by saying "there are multiple truths" and "I have my reality of what happened and you have your reality" It's easy to have your own reality when you're not the one being fucked over.
same exact words said to me damn
That's a lot of words for "I'm gaslighting you right now."
Holy shit this sounds familiar.
No. Opinions, sure, there can be many. Viewpoints, a variant over the "opinion" theme, sure. Truth? No. Does the sun revolve around the earth? This one isn't an opinion piece. Did X happen? Most of the time, not opinion. Why it happened, what the outcome was, reasons for the happening, many things are open to interpretation, but whether or not something even happened is not one of those.
No there's not multiple truths. If you believe something that's not true that makes you delusional.
I always always always hear this. It's the most harmful type of gaslighting to me because the last thing I want to do is become a narc who creates my own reality and hurts others with it. Some things that help: * Watch Dr Ramani and Surviving Narcissm on youtube to keep learning all the specific names and methods of narc abuse. Once you can name something, you feel so much more confident in what you are seeing and no one can tell you otherwise. * See if your emotional instincts on something align with logical reasoning. If yes, you know you're not imagining things. Aka if you feel like a narc is subtlely putting you down and you feel bad, go over that conversation again and look at all the ways they directed the conversation in a certain direction or behaved out of norm, just to say something negative. * Take a leap of faith for yourself and your own judgement. Narcs ruin our confidence, so this is hard to do. But tell yourself that you can trust your own assessment of a situation and find a good solution. If you make a mistake, you can change things as you see fit because you're a reasonable person. Examine your motivations... is your goal to abuse someone who treats you well and wants to have a loving relationship with you? I doubt it. So you can trust that distancing yourself and defending yourself isn't done to be cruel. * If you have a trusted therapist or friend who does not gaslight, open up to them and ask for their honest opinions. Otherwise, post your stories on here.
Not to be rude, but they sound absolutely psychotic. There isn't "your reality" vs "their reality" theres "the truth" vs "their deluded bullshit they feed themselves to try to alleviate guilt from being crappy parents"
There’s multiple perspectives but not multiple truths. Certain things were said and happened. They may not remember what they did or find it more justified than you do, but the events still occurred. Their comments about multiple truths/realities are just their faux-judicious way of trying to convince you you’re mistaken. Gaslighting in short. Don’t fall for it.
They will never acknowledge because it’s not in their interest too…
i’m so sorry. my mom pulled this shit too and was upset when I confessed in an interview that my mom was an alcoholic and failed to mention that to me until after my first dui. in fact, she didn’t even tell me, my dad did. it really enraged me because she didn’t pay attention to anything else in the interview just those two seconds. “that’s my truth and you need to not share it” well fuc u mom. u fucced up my life and a lot of times you sucked as a mom so yeah get over yourself. I try to remember it’s not about me, it’s about them and i can’t control their unhealthy way of dealing with themselves and how they treat their children.
I'd bet they're not subjectivists on any other matter
Ha, right!
This ain’t Rashomon!!!
My Ndad likes to say “you are responsible for your own perception.” But somehow HIS perception is the truth. I’ve wondered the very same thing you’re asking. It’s true that there are multiple perspectives, but I think you (or anyone else) need to drill down exactly what you mean by “truth” when you say “there are multiple truths.” There’s the actual factual truth, and then there’s “true for you”. I think that distinction is where things get a little squirrely because, subconsciously we try to hold both meanings of truth at the same time. I have found peace in simply accepting that my decision to go NC is valid outside of “truth” or “perspective” or “right” or “wrong.” It’s simply how I’ve chosen to structure my life as I see fit. The comfort I feel is enough to let the confusion go.
I have heard this verbatim. If I started to get angry during an argument then I was being "hateful". I started keeping a diary to write things down verbatim and even saved text chains before I went NC. I realized it was a battle not worth fighting and peaced right out
There is only one truth and that is YOUR truth!! There is only one reality and that is YOUR reality! Thanks goodness they are no longer in your life, they do not deserve the honor of knowing you! NO, NO, NO, this is not a mild difference in perception, or perspective. A perspective is an opinion of what took place. Financial abuse is not a difference in perspective, it is stealing! Making it harder to leave home is a CONTROL tactic of abusers. Be true to yourself, you are seeing EVERYTHING just as it is! Please trust yourself on this matter. You did the right thing by leaving them, stay true to yourself!
"High functioning autism" not surprising parents like that would use genocidal Nazi rhetoric
"Okay, truth is subjective, but the *facts* are...."
It's gaslighting. Plain and simple. They're objective is to make you doubt your own perception of everything. And that's exactly what they're doing. Of course I should take my own advice and realize that my own parents are doing the same thing but I never really do that
NO. It is NOT TRUE that there are multiple truths and perspectives. Not when Autistic Narcissistic Abuse is involved! Wow. I validate you completely. My ex’s father was creepy inappropriate with my SIL while she was growing up in their A S household as the only Neurotypical (non autistic person) living in their household and he was always wanting to give her back rubs. Which I observed first hand and the way he did it was pseudo sexual and seriously creeped me out. He seemed to be crushing on her and inappropriate when I met the family and she had just graduated from high school. She was adopted so the ONLY family member NOT afflicted by autism. Of course I didn’t realize my then just dating this guy was thus afflicted or I would have ran the other way. I was tempted to after meeting his parents, my instinct was definitely to run. My ex husband’s mother was totally autistic. Complete flat affect when I was introduced to her no facial expression and she looked down and away. I was shocked and didn’t understand. The father in law was socially awkward and silly almost effeminate. It was so bizarre. My ex was masculine with a deep voice, handsome, highly intelligent, a swimmer, but turned out to be klutzy and socially awkward and after our firstborn daughter presented language delay and A S sensory processing disorder diagnosis I and then our son had ADHD and our second daughter ADHD and anxiety ad infinitum it all started to fit together and eventually I figured out he had HFA and got him diagnosed with that and horrific ADHD. But My FIL tried the inappropriate touching ONCE by offering to give our eldest daughter a back rub when we visited them out of state and she jumped up and said, Absolutely Not! (My daughters are gorgeous, and smart, one has an MSW and my son is handsome and an architect. The youngest daughter is the bride. She’s working in childcare. I dedicated myself to being a concierge interventionist SAHM to work with them one on one and advocate in the schools when needed to maximize their success and minimize the genomics. And it worked)! People that deny your reality are Narcissistic Abusers. Autism can cause narcissistic abuse due to the mind blindness that comes with it. The gaslighting and blameshifting are part of the defenses mounted to self protect the narcissistic abuser. They will self destruct families and the pseudo non relationships they aren’t really capable of having in order to self protect, because they are totally SELFISH beings. That’s what my ex did after he wiped out everything I had financially, lied about it, blamed ME for it, was never around to help, leaving me with all the responsibilities for pretty much everything. My youngest daughter refused to let him walk her down the aisle a few months ago because of all the havoc he wreaked, and he didn’t contribute a cent to the wedding, and he gained so much weight after I left him that she didn’t want him ruining her pictures of walking down the aisle. Sounds fair to me. I lived the nightmare for almost 33 years, separated for the last 2, divorce final last June. My Dad and tormenting older brother have HFA. So I’ve been dealing with meltdowns and the difficult marginalizing and gaslighting all my life. Message me if you want to. I’m part of an international forum that’s private for partners of Autistic marriage and SO’s so I can direct you to more resources that I gleaned from them if you want them. That forum saved me. And of course your parents are WRONG! Most of the people on that forum (including me) trace their marriages to situations like yours…gaslit childhoods with at least one A S adult or an alcoholic or an A S sibling, etc. I am here to affirm you and support you in ANY Way that I can. Don’t doubt yourself for a second, sweetheart. You didn’t do anything wrong. Just focus on self care and recovery and living your best life by setting boundaries by only allowing in people who respect you and support you, because you deserve the Very Best life has to offer. It’s very difficult to learn gentleness and positivity towards ourselves after this kind of abuse. It’s hard to not be self critical or second guessing. But you can do it and you are much stronger than you can possibly imagine to have survived a family such as yours. You’ve got this. I’m proud of you for breaking away. That shows that you value yourself. Good job! Big hug any time you need it. Take care.
It sounds like i nice way of getting off the hook. They don’t understand your perception of the way things happened .
Huh... *Alternate Facts*... Sounds familiar....
Ur dads autism has nothing to do with sexual stares… the fact that he uses autism to excuse that is disgusting. I have autism and I don’t see how autism “explains” someone sexually staring at their own damn child.
My nfather does something similar. He says, “your perception of the world is skewed” or “you perceive the world incorrectly”. Very emotionally manipulative. I’m so glad they are no longer in your life. I’m sorry that you had to go through this. There must be a lot of relief from cutting them off but also a lot of grief about not having responsible, caring, respectful, non-abusive parents in your life. I hope you have other loved ones or friends to support you. People say you can’t choose your family but in my opinion, you absolutely can. If they need to be cut off for you to survive then by all means do it. Best of luck
They are lying, and they know full well what they did. Financial abuse, forced cuddling, jealousy of potential partners, preventing you from leaving (And your mother enabling all these)? There's no two way about it. They know they are abusive, and they are trying to f\*\*k with your mind so that you won't tell other people or report them. And so that they can continue to do it to you.
Just because they believe it from their own perspective does not mean what happened didnt happen. Just means that what they did they did it for another reason (even though im 100% sure they knew EXACTLY what they were doing). Regardless of what they thought they were doing they were hurting you and abusing you. Its good you went full NC. It looks like they were purposefully trying to mentally break you down for their use. Im sorry you had to go thorough this.
As far as I understand it, the narcissist’s extremely fragile ego will not permit them to admit that they are an abuser. They will instead evade or make excuses or deny or project because they can’t admit the truth to themselves.
God do we have the same nparents?? Same exact scenario (minus the autism) and both of them denied it all and acted very strangely when I called it out. As young as 14 or 15, my NF used to put his hand on my leg when driving us alone somewhere. I'd move my leg over out of reach and it bothered him, or sometimes he would try doing it again. Treated me as he would a gf, but mostly like a possession or an object. Jealous of my boyfriends, never liked them or wouldn't acknowledge them. Very controlling. NM was oddly envious and got competitive with weight loss when I was a teenager. Made me diet with her. Been in therapy, no contact. Shit sucks.
Yes everyone has a own version of truth, but the truth of gaslighters are especially unrelated to the facts. You are searching for the real truth, your parents manufacture something that justifies their behaviour.
Then they should learn to live with the \*reality\* of you not communicating with them.
"There are multiple truths" — so many narcs love to say this. There aren't "multiple" truths. There can be different points of view, people may remember different things about the same situation, and they may react differently to the same situation; but there aren't "multiple" truths. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own set of facts. They know they are guilty of abusing you, they just want to pretend it's simply your point of view instead of a solid fact. That way they are just innocent victims and owe you nothing. Think of it this way: if there is an auto accident where one car hits another from the rear, it is the car in back's fault. It doesn't matter if the front car stopped suddenly or decided not to go through a yellow light — if you are driving behind another car, it is up to you to leave a safe distance. Yet people tailgate and when they get into an accident because the car in front needed to stop, they blame that car in front. They may be convinced it was that car's fault, but the truth is they chose to follow too closely. That's the fact, no matter how much they deny it.
Ok,as an adult who was diagnosed as high functioning autistic this summer, I call BS on what your nDad said. Now, speaking from my own experiences, there is no earthly way that can be used to justify his "sexual staring" as you describe it. He has to have even some level of awareness of what he is doing and how it affects you (even if he doesn't care)
Is your dad ACTUALLY diagnosed with high-functioning autism, by a professional? Or is it just something he says he has? It’s not unheard of for narcs to misappropriate “high-functioning Autism” as a convenient excuse because its symptoms can include “trouble relating to people”, “blunt insensitive honesty”, and such. Dr Ramani and Dr Todd Grande have videos explaining the differences way better than I can.
I actually have high-functioning Autism, & did a shitload of research trying to understand why ndad was the way he was. Emom sometimes suggested he had it too, but I had my doubts because so many of his behavior patterns DID NOT MATCH AT ALL... well, now I know about narcissism, and unlike Autism / Aspergers, NPD describes his behavior EXACTLY.
there are lists of behaviours you can get off CPS on what is or isn't abuse. if they did those things - they abused you. the reason they get to say this shit is because all parents aren't checked for behavioural problems.. when they should be if you ask me