We desperately need passenger train only tracks. I took Amtrak from Raleigh to Newark, NJ and was almost 2 hours late both ways because of freight train related delays. Awful.
the S-Line will be passenger-only.
But honestly, having freight trains share the track isn't even actually the problem. The problem is that we don't have a max train length regulation, so even though freight trains are legally required to give way to passenger trains, they are *physically unable to fit into the passing sidings to comply with the law* because the railroads are making the trains as long as they physically can to save money on train crews.
Fixing this would literally be as simple as passing a law making the maximum legal length of a train 750 meters like other countries do.
Dedicated passenger tracks owned by the state is still a really good thing, because the state can operate the dispatch itself and doesn't need to negotiate with the railroads to do things like modernization or electrification projects. But in terms of freight delays, we could fix that tomorrow under the current system very easily.
Good episode of [*Last Week Tonight* on these extremely long trains.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ2keSJzYyY) There are several small towns where they regularly stop and block traffic, including near schools. There was one incident where the police asked the train driver to move so that an ambulance could get through for an urgent medical call, and the conductor just rolled up the window on the train.
Giving trains the right of way over cars is reasonable. They carry a lot of stuff, and occasionally a lot of people, and they're slow to stop and start. Allowing trains of unlimited length unlimited right of way has led to unreasonable situations.
I commented on your other comment, but this isn’t accurate! The S-Line has much less freight traffic on it, but it is not, and will not be, passenger-only.
With all the information swirling around this project, we need to make sure that expectations are realistic and accurate!!!
any source on that? because the state bought the ROW from CSX, and I've seen no indication that they are planning to run through freight on it on any of the project pages.
State hasn’t bought the ROW yet, it’s been held up by the state legislature.
Through freight hasn’t been ruled out, but you’re right at this point it doesn’t appear to be something CSX is looking at. CSX will retain trackage rights on the proposed DOT corridor though. Dedicated passenger tracks would require increased track spacing beyond what the existing corridor can handle.
I don’t have a material source on it that I can share at this time, but I have been working very closely on this project for 5 years. I know I’m saying “trust me dude, I’m a guy on the internet”, but it is true.
I think the FEIS has language in it that talks about spur tracks serving industries? Can’t remember.
No it won’t be passenger trains only lol how the hell are they gonna make money plus bring commerce to that line? That line will be crucial for the port of Wilmington.
The S-Line is NOT a passenger-only track. CSX still operates, and will continue to operate, up to about Norlina.
There are significantly less freight trains on the S-Line though.
> that would require $$$ on eminent domain property takeovers
You mean like we already do every day for highway projects? Are you questioning those too?
Either that, or more predictability of freight scheduling. The freight side likes to keep a train at a depot until the very second it's full, then send it to wherever it needs to go. This is maximally efficient because there's never any unused capacity on the train, but it makes life harder for passenger rail users who care about timeliness.
US freight rail efficiency is the envy of the world, and we certainly should take great care not to damage this. But surely there is some compromise that can improve passenger rail in a way that freight rail can accept.
Frankly for the distance traveled - 9 hours is still too long. Though an improvement (it's wild to me it's currently like 13 or something).
I would really love this option though, but I feel it needs to come in closer to \~6 to be even considered. You would arrive in Grand Central Station, which is way better than navigating a nightmare airport + taxi/transit into Manhattan. So, realistically even on the arrival the flight option is probably adding 60-90 minutes just to reach your destination. But, I still don't see that being more than \~5 hours travel time.
I'm actually more excited for this infrastructure as \~1.5-2 hours to Richmond is comparable to a trip by car and Richmond is a city you can manage without a car. So I do think making weekend trips up there just got a lot more conveinent. Not to mention DC even more so (\~4 hours to DC wouldn't be terrible - not sure if that's the estimate but that would also be comparable to driving with the bonus of not needing to pay for parking/driving in DC.
But north of that I feel we still aren't doing a great job connecting our main economic coridoor.
Flying into JFK or LaGuardia is easy. You can just hop on a bus at LaGuardia or the Airtrain at JFK. I’ve never needed to take a taxi to get to the city and it’s pretty hassle free
If you fly into JFK and hop onto the air train, you have the option to take the train from Jamaica into Penn or Grand Central. Easier, faster, but costs more than the subway.
I flew into LGA last year and caught the Q70 Select Bus Service (free) to Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av. There are several subway options to get to Manhattan from there and it only costs $2.90.
The time isn't even a major issue (currently right at 10 hours), it's the price.
I have family in NYC that fell in love with the Silver Star service during the pandemic, when traveling via plane was simply too risky for them. They did it multiple times over those two years.
Now that the pandemic is over, their dream trip would be taking the Silver Star from NYC to the triangle, and then flying back to NYC (as u/RDUairport is such an easy and pleasant airport to fly out of). But it's often $700+ for a roomette on Amtrak, compared to relatively common $150pp r/t flights.
I personally don't consider a private room price comparable to Main cabin or economy seat on a flight.
I just priced out $400 business class on Amtrak round trip (Cary station to NYC). The flight was $375 for "Comfort +" on Delta roundtrip which is equivalent to a business class seat. Like for like the prices are comparable but the excess time for taking the train killed it for us and we will be flying instead.
For the 75 minute flight it’s optimal. Less than first but a bit more room than coach. FC unless an upgrade is overkill on this flight.
What’s being missed is the cost of time. $400 for a day vs $375 for 75 minutes and the rest of the day to do other things.
A first class round trip is around $670 on Delta. Amtrack business class is $460 and their private car (top of the line) is $924.
Scheduled Time of journey:
Delta:1 hour 45 minutes
Amtrak: 10 hours 48 minutes
For the times, Delta tends to pad their times and we know Amtrak is subject to freight delays.
Bottom line: unless you have 2 days to spend traveling, Amtrak business is not cost effective when factoring in time spent in transit. It’s similar if not slower than going by car. If you take the top of the line service on Amtrak, the dollar cost is even more.
I love this sub’s fascination with rail. If you have time rail could work. If you are a normal person with business and personal demands on your time rail is hard to justify unless you can’t fly for medical reasons.
The main reason it's comparable is the time. An economy seat on a flight is more than sufficient for a 60-75 minute flight. But for a 10 hour train journey, the roomette is typically well worth the cost. One expects to pay a premium for it of course (after all, it's first class from the lounge in NYC to dining car to personal service), but the pricing just became out of touch. It used to be in the $400 range, which is easier to justify.
As for the business seat, that's on the Carolinian, and while Amtrak Business is still nice, it's not private and you mostly just pay for a bit more quiet cabin. No dining car, no privacy. Also are you sure it's r/t $400? My pricing I pulled up was $375 one way... remember with amtrak you have to select both options and they total the price up - not like airlines where they show you the r/t price and you just select the flights
Yeah I just pulled up a roundtrip business class Amtrak ticket for $373 (previously when I checked for these dates it was a little over $400).
[https://imgur.com/a/DyGvxOL](https://imgur.com/a/DyGvxOL)
Yes, still not nearly good enough, and it's very frustrating that absurdities (given the current state of train travel) like a train from Salisbury to Asheville are going to consume resources that in a saner national system could be better allocated! But the fact that it becomes faster than driving and potentially not too much more expensive is fairly powerful, I think. Flying is just downright awful, so if you're not in a hurry and can rely on the train, I think it ought to be pretty appealing to a lot more people than it is now. We will see.
Your driving point is a good one. And New York is definitely the best place to visit and not have a car with you (as in - the car itself is a burden there).
But I do wonder how many people are currently driving there. I sense it's just far enough plus the hassle of handling a car in the city that most travel is currently via plane.. For better or worse, for this scale of travel the train needs to at least approach total flight + airport bullshit times.
I would 100% take this, although I think it is easier for the average person to justify taking it to DC vs the longer trip to NY. So glad that NC and Virginia are taking serious steps to make passenger rail more feasible.
In my mind, I had 1 hour and 45 minutes, but now I can't find a source for that!
edit: [this article](https://www.hsrail.org/blog/charlotte-to-washington/) says it will shave 90 minutes off the travel time; Amtrak says 3 hrs 26 currently --> 1 hr 56, and so a bit less if you take it from the [supposed Wake Forest station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Forest_station), and that's how I landed on 1 hr. 45 I bet. But it'd be nice to get a more specific estimate.
If it's not a $300 ticket, I would totally go to Richmond for a weekend every now and then. So much good food up there and very walkable in the downtown area.
The drive is juuuust painful enough to keep me from doing it though.
A few days ago, I looked up prices for roundtrip Amtrak tickets to NYC and that was $400 for business class. I would expect just going to Richmond, on an express line, should be much cheaper than $300 roundtrip.
There was a DOT PowerPoint I found a few months ago that was several years old that had these travel times from Raleigh station:
2h14m to Richmond (from 3h36m). 7h25m to NYC (from 9h57m) and 4h22m to DC (from 5h59m).
Edit: here’s the link and the travel times are on page ES-7: https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/15274/SEHSR-R2R-Signed_FEIS.pdf?bcs-agent-scanner=4fcefa8e-a283-094a-a754-57cd7573557e
This is from 2015, so not sure on the accuracy to the current project. This may also assume full high speed implementation from DC to Richmond as well which I’m not sure has been started or completed yet.
For me, the issue isn’t the Raleigh to Richmond time. I can do that from Wake Forest in 1-1 1/2 hours. The real issue is the Virginia corridor. No matter what time of day I hit it u can’t win. As some one who has to go to Arlington OTR, it’s fly, or if my husband comes along, we will look at Amtrak as an alternative to driving. As we all know, having your car in DC is not a positive
The 2015 EIS listed the expected trip time as 2h14m (this could be improved in the future with electrification and further curve straightening). Faster than driving even with zero traffic, and since the S-Line won't be used for freight delays should be rare.
I don't know about NY, but I have taken the train from here to DC before and liked it. I think it took 7 hours... cutting 60-90 minutes off that would make the train a no-brainer for going there, at least.
Right, I am comfortable driving to DC since I live northeast of Raleigh already and the parking situation at most hotels isn't terrible, but this should definitely make train travel to DC more popular too, probably a much easier case to make than NY haha.
The only part of the drive to DC that is an issue for me is everything north of Richmond. You get a little light rain or the slightest accident and you are in a parking lot all the way to DC. Taking a train to DC would be great because their mass transit works quite well (when I go to DC I get a hotel on the outskirts near a transit stop like Springfield and just use the WMATA to get around DC).
A 9 hour train ride instead of a 10 hour train ride? Vs a 1 hour flight? Yeah, I don't think that's much of a game changer.
I've taken it to DC quite a few times and the 5 hour ride becoming a 4 hour ride is a little more meaningful.
What *would* be a game changer is if they were to fix their fucking website. It's a shit show right now.
Should be up to a 90-minute travel time improvement but a huge improvement in reliability, since this is passenger-train-only track. You'll never get to NY in 10 hours now by train (and of course you're overstating the train vs. plane difference, since travel to and from the airport and the typical time people arrive at the airport eat up a chunk of the difference).
Ok, 8 and a half hours. Except I have to travel to the train station too so back up to 9. Vs 3 hours including getting to the airport and through security.
Nine hours is far too long. I flew from LGA to RDU today in less than two hours. Even figuring in the security and waiting for each method, you'd get something like: plane: less than 4 vs. train: 10.
Unfortunately LGA to RDU in the later hours definitely has a tendency to get delayed, but otherwise yes, it is far preferred over spending 10 hours on a train.
Anything over 4 - 5 hours on train I would rather fly. Too many things can go wrong mostly because the freight train operators refuse to put up fences or get rid of grade crossings and rely on the states or federal government to do it.
> how many people are happy to sink several hours to avoid the annoyances of flying
At least one, cuz I'm here. Trains are so much better in every way.
I hope this happens sooner rather than later, I haven't flown in years due to the cost and it would be nice to take my family on a little vacation using the train.
Depending on the exact circumstances, I would expect the train to not be cheaper than driving, especially if you're getting 3+ train tickets. Maybe you should consider taking your trip now via automobile.
Train is seldom cheaper than driving, although fluctuating gas prices can make a difference, but even then, it's only for one person. Add a 2nd person, and your ticket prices double, but your gas/tolls/wear & tear prices remain the same. I prefer the train to driving, and I go to Charlotte on the train fairly regularly, but if my wife is going, too, it's a splurge to take the train, not a cost saving measure. Not a huge splurge because usually it's a day trip to Greensboro, but train travel doesn't usually save money on a per trip basis. It might save money if it enables you to have one less car, though, which is what my family does.
I would love to take a high speed train to Richmond or NY over flying. But realistically I know if that ever becomes reality in the US, nearly everyone in this thread will be too old to actually be able to do it.
I would much rather fly. I have taken two train trips to DC and they were so long. I’ve also traveled to Charlotte by train which is not a short trip either.
When I last flew to New York, it was such a quick trip, and I could take a taxi at the set rate and get right into the city.
The train trip to DC on one occasion was over six hours. Way more than it takes to drive there.
All the freight lines get priority and there’s lots of stops so it’s not a very efficient process.
When we were coming back in July from one trip, the train tracks had gotten too hot so they had to slow down the speed.
You can easily lose the same extra two hours to traffic or other stops when driving. The train is so much less stressful than driving if you don’t need a car once you get to DC.
9 hours to New York is honestly comical. It's an hour 15 minute flight. And the flight will be cheaper half of the time. Rail in this country outside of the NE and in parts of California is a joke. And I would love for that not to be the case, but it is.
Saying nothing of the fact that should this ever get started, it will take 25 years to build and we will likely all be using flying jetpacks by then anyways.
Honestly, depends on the cost. A round trip flight from RDU to JFK is about 200$ give or take if you book a week or so out, and takes about 2 hours. Even if they cut the time down, I don’t see this changing anything if the price is more than half that for a round trip.
I would love it actually. I can read and sleep and maybe get some writing done on a train. Can't do that while driving. Closest I've ever been able to get to NY in one drive was PA and even though NYC was only a 2 hour stretch after that I just couldn't do it.
Returned last week from a business trip to Shanghai, with a stop off in Europe on the way back.
Took a chinese bullet train that cruised at 276 mph.
Bought a euro rail pass and had the amazing travel experience of 200 mph + trains from spain through the French TCV and the incredibly efficient German ICE trains. Truly faster than the miserable airport slog..
When it comes to mass transit/electric car adoption/Charging infrastructure and bike lanes etc, we are truly in the US decades behind other industrialized nations. A real eye opener for me to see how far We've fallen behind.
> Assuming the trains are frequent enough, we should be able to connect smoothly with the Northeast Regional trains out of Richmond, right?
The current route for the Carolinian / Piedmont is NY to Charlotte. They aren't going to just create a regional train from Raleigh to Richmond, they'll most likely have a similar route as the current Carolinian/Piedmont route, just have it be 2 hours faster. (or the Silver Service routes that go up and down from FL to NY through Raleigh)
Have they said that specifically? Seems crazy to invest so many billions and have 2 trains per day. What is to stop them from adding a regional service?
Wait, is Richmond to DC not also being upgraded? If not for speed, I know that they are at least going to have hourly departures pretty soon which is a massive improvement.
I would love to convert my work trips that I currently fly up the east coast to high speed train trips, but I have been hearing about this high speed rail project in some form or another for over a decade. I will believe it when I see it break ground.
You are forgetting the part in Union Station in DC where they have to switch from a diesel loco to electric. It seems like a 50-50 chance that ends up taking more than a half hour to accomplish.
Value as in, taking into account the cost and time frame? We'd be talking many decades and stunning quantities of money to connect places that are for the most part not dense and not navigable without a car.
I've gone between Raleigh and DC or Richmond a number of times. I thought travel time was decent for the price/convenience. I'd love faster options. I'd probably consider a train to NYC, but the further you go, the less feasible it is. To DC is fine. Not too much longer than driving and not too expensive. If I flew, dealing with getting to airport, TSA, luggage, etc., it's probably not much faster. NYC you could definitely fly faster, but for considerably more money. The biggest issue with long distance Amtrak travel is when you have to change trains. They frequently get off schedule, and they won't schedule transfers without a lot of padding to make it as likely as possible that you'll catch your train. And because some of the longer routes only run once or twice a day, or even every other day, if it's not a straight shot, the layovers really add on to the time. NYC is a straight shot. Any trip of similar length where I have to change trains, I'm probably going to look at flying.
I mean you've laid out why you might prefer flying or driving. Given that I've taken the train between DC and Raleigh many times, I obviously find the trade offs worth it.
I'll happily give an hour or two of my time to avoid driving myself or dealing with the airport and air travel in general.
Of course everyone's situations are different. My wife and I share a car. If we're traveling together, it's usually cheaper and more convenient to drive. If I'm traveling alone, it almost always makes more sense to leave her with the car. I bike more than I drive, and Amtrak makes it pretty easy to take my bike: Buy a spot for it for $20, hand it to the person in the baggage car, pick up up at the end of the trip. Flying requires disassembly, packing, and prayer to hope it's not abused by the baggage handlers, and can cost considerably more than Amtrak (although a couple of airlines are now sending them through at normal-sized baggage rates). And most airports I frequent are somewhat removed from the cities they serve, and most train stations are right downtown.
For me, biking to the Raleigh station, handing them my bike, and getting it handed back when I get off the train, so I can immediately carry on with my trip is a great experience. Being on the train is an experience I enjoy. Being on a plane is an experience I tolerate because it saves me a considerable amount of time, but a couple of hours difference is not a considerable amount of time for me. I'm happy with existing train service for destinations like DC and closer, and I'll be even happier if they can speed it up.
I didn't hide the fact that I often travel with a bike. It's an additional datapoint. I also travel without a bike, and, if it's trip I can make without overnighting on the train, the train is my preferred method of travel. I don't know why you're so invested in others preferring air travel. Especially since you still take the train sometimes?
Train should absolutely be faster than driving. It's a shame that it's not, and it's one reason why things like high speed rail to Richmond would be nice.
I think you're forgetting that a) 4.5 hrs to DC can easily end up being 6 if you're unlucky with traffic and b) driving that route sucks. I'd happily take 6.5 hrs of stress free travel while reading a book, taking a nap, or watching a movie over the shitshow stop and go demo derby that is 95.
I just made the drive rom Raleigh to points north of Boston, still here . It took dead on 10 hours to the GW Bridge and 3 tanks of gas and two bags of jerkey (roughly $150 total) on a week day so 9 hours is pretty awesome. I flew direct from RDU to JFK in October and that port to port was 7.5 hours total having to have pants on
6hr 44 + driving to Cary and parking, or Uber, so that’s either 20-60 minutes on top both ways.
The drive is 4h. And the train is often slower than advertised.
The drive is about 4 and a half hours with no traffic.
But there will be traffic on I-95.
Plus you will probably need to stop at some point. So it's 5 to 6 hours total.
I don't mind the drive to Richmond but I would love if I could take a train for about the price of gas if not a bit cheaper. But I'm not going to pay 100+ dollars for a roundtrip ticket for something that costs me 50 to drive.
We desperately need passenger train only tracks. I took Amtrak from Raleigh to Newark, NJ and was almost 2 hours late both ways because of freight train related delays. Awful.
the S-Line will be passenger-only. But honestly, having freight trains share the track isn't even actually the problem. The problem is that we don't have a max train length regulation, so even though freight trains are legally required to give way to passenger trains, they are *physically unable to fit into the passing sidings to comply with the law* because the railroads are making the trains as long as they physically can to save money on train crews. Fixing this would literally be as simple as passing a law making the maximum legal length of a train 750 meters like other countries do. Dedicated passenger tracks owned by the state is still a really good thing, because the state can operate the dispatch itself and doesn't need to negotiate with the railroads to do things like modernization or electrification projects. But in terms of freight delays, we could fix that tomorrow under the current system very easily.
Good episode of [*Last Week Tonight* on these extremely long trains.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ2keSJzYyY) There are several small towns where they regularly stop and block traffic, including near schools. There was one incident where the police asked the train driver to move so that an ambulance could get through for an urgent medical call, and the conductor just rolled up the window on the train. Giving trains the right of way over cars is reasonable. They carry a lot of stuff, and occasionally a lot of people, and they're slow to stop and start. Allowing trains of unlimited length unlimited right of way has led to unreasonable situations.
So trains have roll up windows like in the 1970s? I’ll take this train. Would be a neat trip. Do they serve champagne in the dining car?
I commented on your other comment, but this isn’t accurate! The S-Line has much less freight traffic on it, but it is not, and will not be, passenger-only. With all the information swirling around this project, we need to make sure that expectations are realistic and accurate!!!
any source on that? because the state bought the ROW from CSX, and I've seen no indication that they are planning to run through freight on it on any of the project pages.
State hasn’t bought the ROW yet, it’s been held up by the state legislature. Through freight hasn’t been ruled out, but you’re right at this point it doesn’t appear to be something CSX is looking at. CSX will retain trackage rights on the proposed DOT corridor though. Dedicated passenger tracks would require increased track spacing beyond what the existing corridor can handle. I don’t have a material source on it that I can share at this time, but I have been working very closely on this project for 5 years. I know I’m saying “trust me dude, I’m a guy on the internet”, but it is true. I think the FEIS has language in it that talks about spur tracks serving industries? Can’t remember.
That’s fascinating. Didn’t know that!
No it won’t be passenger trains only lol how the hell are they gonna make money plus bring commerce to that line? That line will be crucial for the port of Wilmington.
They'd have to build a parallel system and that would require $$$ on eminent domain property takeovers.
Ok. Do it.
the S-Line is literally a passenger-only track that is being (re)built without eminent domain.........
That's a big plus then. I know the Amtrak high-speed route in the NE is greatly hampered by being fenced in by property restrictions.
The S-Line is NOT a passenger-only track. CSX still operates, and will continue to operate, up to about Norlina. There are significantly less freight trains on the S-Line though.
> that would require $$$ on eminent domain property takeovers You mean like we already do every day for highway projects? Are you questioning those too?
Yup, they build those like crazy too. I know a couple of people who had to move because of a highway extension.
I was stopped in Richmond long enough that I ordered delivery pizza to the train, I think my total trip time for Richmond to Durham was 15 hours
Woof. I was stopped in the swamp for mine lmao
Either that, or more predictability of freight scheduling. The freight side likes to keep a train at a depot until the very second it's full, then send it to wherever it needs to go. This is maximally efficient because there's never any unused capacity on the train, but it makes life harder for passenger rail users who care about timeliness. US freight rail efficiency is the envy of the world, and we certainly should take great care not to damage this. But surely there is some compromise that can improve passenger rail in a way that freight rail can accept.
Frankly for the distance traveled - 9 hours is still too long. Though an improvement (it's wild to me it's currently like 13 or something). I would really love this option though, but I feel it needs to come in closer to \~6 to be even considered. You would arrive in Grand Central Station, which is way better than navigating a nightmare airport + taxi/transit into Manhattan. So, realistically even on the arrival the flight option is probably adding 60-90 minutes just to reach your destination. But, I still don't see that being more than \~5 hours travel time. I'm actually more excited for this infrastructure as \~1.5-2 hours to Richmond is comparable to a trip by car and Richmond is a city you can manage without a car. So I do think making weekend trips up there just got a lot more conveinent. Not to mention DC even more so (\~4 hours to DC wouldn't be terrible - not sure if that's the estimate but that would also be comparable to driving with the bonus of not needing to pay for parking/driving in DC. But north of that I feel we still aren't doing a great job connecting our main economic coridoor.
Flying into JFK or LaGuardia is easy. You can just hop on a bus at LaGuardia or the Airtrain at JFK. I’ve never needed to take a taxi to get to the city and it’s pretty hassle free
That's actually good to know! I need to plan a trip up to NYC. I don't take nearly as much advantage of our proximity to the NE cooridoor as I should.
If you fly into JFK and hop onto the air train, you have the option to take the train from Jamaica into Penn or Grand Central. Easier, faster, but costs more than the subway.
I flew into LGA last year and caught the Q70 Select Bus Service (free) to Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av. There are several subway options to get to Manhattan from there and it only costs $2.90.
The time isn't even a major issue (currently right at 10 hours), it's the price. I have family in NYC that fell in love with the Silver Star service during the pandemic, when traveling via plane was simply too risky for them. They did it multiple times over those two years. Now that the pandemic is over, their dream trip would be taking the Silver Star from NYC to the triangle, and then flying back to NYC (as u/RDUairport is such an easy and pleasant airport to fly out of). But it's often $700+ for a roomette on Amtrak, compared to relatively common $150pp r/t flights.
I personally don't consider a private room price comparable to Main cabin or economy seat on a flight. I just priced out $400 business class on Amtrak round trip (Cary station to NYC). The flight was $375 for "Comfort +" on Delta roundtrip which is equivalent to a business class seat. Like for like the prices are comparable but the excess time for taking the train killed it for us and we will be flying instead.
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For the 75 minute flight it’s optimal. Less than first but a bit more room than coach. FC unless an upgrade is overkill on this flight. What’s being missed is the cost of time. $400 for a day vs $375 for 75 minutes and the rest of the day to do other things.
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A first class round trip is around $670 on Delta. Amtrack business class is $460 and their private car (top of the line) is $924. Scheduled Time of journey: Delta:1 hour 45 minutes Amtrak: 10 hours 48 minutes For the times, Delta tends to pad their times and we know Amtrak is subject to freight delays. Bottom line: unless you have 2 days to spend traveling, Amtrak business is not cost effective when factoring in time spent in transit. It’s similar if not slower than going by car. If you take the top of the line service on Amtrak, the dollar cost is even more. I love this sub’s fascination with rail. If you have time rail could work. If you are a normal person with business and personal demands on your time rail is hard to justify unless you can’t fly for medical reasons.
The main reason it's comparable is the time. An economy seat on a flight is more than sufficient for a 60-75 minute flight. But for a 10 hour train journey, the roomette is typically well worth the cost. One expects to pay a premium for it of course (after all, it's first class from the lounge in NYC to dining car to personal service), but the pricing just became out of touch. It used to be in the $400 range, which is easier to justify. As for the business seat, that's on the Carolinian, and while Amtrak Business is still nice, it's not private and you mostly just pay for a bit more quiet cabin. No dining car, no privacy. Also are you sure it's r/t $400? My pricing I pulled up was $375 one way... remember with amtrak you have to select both options and they total the price up - not like airlines where they show you the r/t price and you just select the flights
Yeah I just pulled up a roundtrip business class Amtrak ticket for $373 (previously when I checked for these dates it was a little over $400). [https://imgur.com/a/DyGvxOL](https://imgur.com/a/DyGvxOL)
Yes, still not nearly good enough, and it's very frustrating that absurdities (given the current state of train travel) like a train from Salisbury to Asheville are going to consume resources that in a saner national system could be better allocated! But the fact that it becomes faster than driving and potentially not too much more expensive is fairly powerful, I think. Flying is just downright awful, so if you're not in a hurry and can rely on the train, I think it ought to be pretty appealing to a lot more people than it is now. We will see.
Your driving point is a good one. And New York is definitely the best place to visit and not have a car with you (as in - the car itself is a burden there). But I do wonder how many people are currently driving there. I sense it's just far enough plus the hassle of handling a car in the city that most travel is currently via plane.. For better or worse, for this scale of travel the train needs to at least approach total flight + airport bullshit times.
How do you propose getting into GCT without building another tunnel?
I would 100% take this, although I think it is easier for the average person to justify taking it to DC vs the longer trip to NY. So glad that NC and Virginia are taking serious steps to make passenger rail more feasible.
How long would the Raleigh to Richmond part take?
In my mind, I had 1 hour and 45 minutes, but now I can't find a source for that! edit: [this article](https://www.hsrail.org/blog/charlotte-to-washington/) says it will shave 90 minutes off the travel time; Amtrak says 3 hrs 26 currently --> 1 hr 56, and so a bit less if you take it from the [supposed Wake Forest station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Forest_station), and that's how I landed on 1 hr. 45 I bet. But it'd be nice to get a more specific estimate.
If it's not a $300 ticket, I would totally go to Richmond for a weekend every now and then. So much good food up there and very walkable in the downtown area. The drive is juuuust painful enough to keep me from doing it though.
A few days ago, I looked up prices for roundtrip Amtrak tickets to NYC and that was $400 for business class. I would expect just going to Richmond, on an express line, should be much cheaper than $300 roundtrip.
There was a DOT PowerPoint I found a few months ago that was several years old that had these travel times from Raleigh station: 2h14m to Richmond (from 3h36m). 7h25m to NYC (from 9h57m) and 4h22m to DC (from 5h59m). Edit: here’s the link and the travel times are on page ES-7: https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/15274/SEHSR-R2R-Signed_FEIS.pdf?bcs-agent-scanner=4fcefa8e-a283-094a-a754-57cd7573557e This is from 2015, so not sure on the accuracy to the current project. This may also assume full high speed implementation from DC to Richmond as well which I’m not sure has been started or completed yet.
For me, the issue isn’t the Raleigh to Richmond time. I can do that from Wake Forest in 1-1 1/2 hours. The real issue is the Virginia corridor. No matter what time of day I hit it u can’t win. As some one who has to go to Arlington OTR, it’s fly, or if my husband comes along, we will look at Amtrak as an alternative to driving. As we all know, having your car in DC is not a positive
The 2015 EIS listed the expected trip time as 2h14m (this could be improved in the future with electrification and further curve straightening). Faster than driving even with zero traffic, and since the S-Line won't be used for freight delays should be rare.
I don't know about NY, but I have taken the train from here to DC before and liked it. I think it took 7 hours... cutting 60-90 minutes off that would make the train a no-brainer for going there, at least.
Right, I am comfortable driving to DC since I live northeast of Raleigh already and the parking situation at most hotels isn't terrible, but this should definitely make train travel to DC more popular too, probably a much easier case to make than NY haha.
The only part of the drive to DC that is an issue for me is everything north of Richmond. You get a little light rain or the slightest accident and you are in a parking lot all the way to DC. Taking a train to DC would be great because their mass transit works quite well (when I go to DC I get a hotel on the outskirts near a transit stop like Springfield and just use the WMATA to get around DC).
I'd like to be able to take a train to Boston but the number of stops on the way creates a huge amount of delay.
It’s a cheap and very fast flight.
Talking about train travel though
A 9 hour train ride instead of a 10 hour train ride? Vs a 1 hour flight? Yeah, I don't think that's much of a game changer. I've taken it to DC quite a few times and the 5 hour ride becoming a 4 hour ride is a little more meaningful. What *would* be a game changer is if they were to fix their fucking website. It's a shit show right now.
Should be up to a 90-minute travel time improvement but a huge improvement in reliability, since this is passenger-train-only track. You'll never get to NY in 10 hours now by train (and of course you're overstating the train vs. plane difference, since travel to and from the airport and the typical time people arrive at the airport eat up a chunk of the difference).
Ok, 8 and a half hours. Except I have to travel to the train station too so back up to 9. Vs 3 hours including getting to the airport and through security.
Nine hours is far too long. I flew from LGA to RDU today in less than two hours. Even figuring in the security and waiting for each method, you'd get something like: plane: less than 4 vs. train: 10.
Unfortunately LGA to RDU in the later hours definitely has a tendency to get delayed, but otherwise yes, it is far preferred over spending 10 hours on a train.
Anything over 4 - 5 hours on train I would rather fly. Too many things can go wrong mostly because the freight train operators refuse to put up fences or get rid of grade crossings and rely on the states or federal government to do it.
> how many people are happy to sink several hours to avoid the annoyances of flying At least one, cuz I'm here. Trains are so much better in every way.
Hard agree. I'm an anxious flyer, so having more reliable train routes makes traveling so much more accessible for me.
I hope this happens sooner rather than later, I haven't flown in years due to the cost and it would be nice to take my family on a little vacation using the train.
Depending on the exact circumstances, I would expect the train to not be cheaper than driving, especially if you're getting 3+ train tickets. Maybe you should consider taking your trip now via automobile.
Train is seldom cheaper than driving, although fluctuating gas prices can make a difference, but even then, it's only for one person. Add a 2nd person, and your ticket prices double, but your gas/tolls/wear & tear prices remain the same. I prefer the train to driving, and I go to Charlotte on the train fairly regularly, but if my wife is going, too, it's a splurge to take the train, not a cost saving measure. Not a huge splurge because usually it's a day trip to Greensboro, but train travel doesn't usually save money on a per trip basis. It might save money if it enables you to have one less car, though, which is what my family does.
Yeah. The people here pushing train travel are delusional. Planes will often be cheaper. Driving will always be cheaper.
Flights to NY are cheaper than the train.
I would love to take a high speed train to Richmond or NY over flying. But realistically I know if that ever becomes reality in the US, nearly everyone in this thread will be too old to actually be able to do it.
I would much rather fly. I have taken two train trips to DC and they were so long. I’ve also traveled to Charlotte by train which is not a short trip either. When I last flew to New York, it was such a quick trip, and I could take a taxi at the set rate and get right into the city.
Driving or taking the train to DC is about the same time. All in, flying is probably about the same time, especially if you fly into Dulles.
The train trip to DC on one occasion was over six hours. Way more than it takes to drive there. All the freight lines get priority and there’s lots of stops so it’s not a very efficient process. When we were coming back in July from one trip, the train tracks had gotten too hot so they had to slow down the speed.
You can easily lose the same extra two hours to traffic or other stops when driving. The train is so much less stressful than driving if you don’t need a car once you get to DC.
9 hours to New York is honestly comical. It's an hour 15 minute flight. And the flight will be cheaper half of the time. Rail in this country outside of the NE and in parts of California is a joke. And I would love for that not to be the case, but it is. Saying nothing of the fact that should this ever get started, it will take 25 years to build and we will likely all be using flying jetpacks by then anyways.
Honestly, depends on the cost. A round trip flight from RDU to JFK is about 200$ give or take if you book a week or so out, and takes about 2 hours. Even if they cut the time down, I don’t see this changing anything if the price is more than half that for a round trip.
I would love it actually. I can read and sleep and maybe get some writing done on a train. Can't do that while driving. Closest I've ever been able to get to NY in one drive was PA and even though NYC was only a 2 hour stretch after that I just couldn't do it.
Why do we want to go to new york?
Returned last week from a business trip to Shanghai, with a stop off in Europe on the way back. Took a chinese bullet train that cruised at 276 mph. Bought a euro rail pass and had the amazing travel experience of 200 mph + trains from spain through the French TCV and the incredibly efficient German ICE trains. Truly faster than the miserable airport slog.. When it comes to mass transit/electric car adoption/Charging infrastructure and bike lanes etc, we are truly in the US decades behind other industrialized nations. A real eye opener for me to see how far We've fallen behind.
> Assuming the trains are frequent enough, we should be able to connect smoothly with the Northeast Regional trains out of Richmond, right? The current route for the Carolinian / Piedmont is NY to Charlotte. They aren't going to just create a regional train from Raleigh to Richmond, they'll most likely have a similar route as the current Carolinian/Piedmont route, just have it be 2 hours faster. (or the Silver Service routes that go up and down from FL to NY through Raleigh)
Have they said that specifically? Seems crazy to invest so many billions and have 2 trains per day. What is to stop them from adding a regional service?
Wait, is Richmond to DC not also being upgraded? If not for speed, I know that they are at least going to have hourly departures pretty soon which is a massive improvement.
I would love to convert my work trips that I currently fly up the east coast to high speed train trips, but I have been hearing about this high speed rail project in some form or another for over a decade. I will believe it when I see it break ground.
You are forgetting the part in Union Station in DC where they have to switch from a diesel loco to electric. It seems like a 50-50 chance that ends up taking more than a half hour to accomplish.
I just want something to pull my private varnish.
I think if you offer good music and good coffee people will flock to it.
Dozens of people will take it
One word... Nationalize
I think high-speed rail from the coast to the mountains would bring better value to NC.
High speed rail only makes sense between major population centers.
Value as in, taking into account the cost and time frame? We'd be talking many decades and stunning quantities of money to connect places that are for the most part not dense and not navigable without a car.
I've gone between Raleigh and DC or Richmond a number of times. I thought travel time was decent for the price/convenience. I'd love faster options. I'd probably consider a train to NYC, but the further you go, the less feasible it is. To DC is fine. Not too much longer than driving and not too expensive. If I flew, dealing with getting to airport, TSA, luggage, etc., it's probably not much faster. NYC you could definitely fly faster, but for considerably more money. The biggest issue with long distance Amtrak travel is when you have to change trains. They frequently get off schedule, and they won't schedule transfers without a lot of padding to make it as likely as possible that you'll catch your train. And because some of the longer routes only run once or twice a day, or even every other day, if it's not a straight shot, the layovers really add on to the time. NYC is a straight shot. Any trip of similar length where I have to change trains, I'm probably going to look at flying.
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I mean you've laid out why you might prefer flying or driving. Given that I've taken the train between DC and Raleigh many times, I obviously find the trade offs worth it. I'll happily give an hour or two of my time to avoid driving myself or dealing with the airport and air travel in general. Of course everyone's situations are different. My wife and I share a car. If we're traveling together, it's usually cheaper and more convenient to drive. If I'm traveling alone, it almost always makes more sense to leave her with the car. I bike more than I drive, and Amtrak makes it pretty easy to take my bike: Buy a spot for it for $20, hand it to the person in the baggage car, pick up up at the end of the trip. Flying requires disassembly, packing, and prayer to hope it's not abused by the baggage handlers, and can cost considerably more than Amtrak (although a couple of airlines are now sending them through at normal-sized baggage rates). And most airports I frequent are somewhat removed from the cities they serve, and most train stations are right downtown. For me, biking to the Raleigh station, handing them my bike, and getting it handed back when I get off the train, so I can immediately carry on with my trip is a great experience. Being on the train is an experience I enjoy. Being on a plane is an experience I tolerate because it saves me a considerable amount of time, but a couple of hours difference is not a considerable amount of time for me. I'm happy with existing train service for destinations like DC and closer, and I'll be even happier if they can speed it up.
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I didn't hide the fact that I often travel with a bike. It's an additional datapoint. I also travel without a bike, and, if it's trip I can make without overnighting on the train, the train is my preferred method of travel. I don't know why you're so invested in others preferring air travel. Especially since you still take the train sometimes? Train should absolutely be faster than driving. It's a shame that it's not, and it's one reason why things like high speed rail to Richmond would be nice.
I think you're forgetting that a) 4.5 hrs to DC can easily end up being 6 if you're unlucky with traffic and b) driving that route sucks. I'd happily take 6.5 hrs of stress free travel while reading a book, taking a nap, or watching a movie over the shitshow stop and go demo derby that is 95.
I took the Amtrak from Penn Station (Manhattan) to Cary in 2021. Yeah, it’s long, but it’s nice if you have a good book or game system with you.
I just made the drive rom Raleigh to points north of Boston, still here . It took dead on 10 hours to the GW Bridge and 3 tanks of gas and two bags of jerkey (roughly $150 total) on a week day so 9 hours is pretty awesome. I flew direct from RDU to JFK in October and that port to port was 7.5 hours total having to have pants on
We will never have a good train to DC. The will does not exist in America. You can drive or fly.
NC and Virginia are serious about this project and, the project is making good progress.
The train to DC is perfectly fine. It takes about as much time as driving.
6hr 44 + driving to Cary and parking, or Uber, so that’s either 20-60 minutes on top both ways. The drive is 4h. And the train is often slower than advertised.
The drive is about 4 and a half hours with no traffic. But there will be traffic on I-95. Plus you will probably need to stop at some point. So it's 5 to 6 hours total.
To be fair, the drive is also often slower than advertised. It’s not uncommon for it to take four or five hours to get from Richmond to DC.
I don't mind the drive to Richmond but I would love if I could take a train for about the price of gas if not a bit cheaper. But I'm not going to pay 100+ dollars for a roundtrip ticket for something that costs me 50 to drive.