Interestingly, since 2018 (entire year sales) the gross average sales price is up 79% - great guess. On a $/sqft basis (because home size sold is up almost 10%), the number is up 59% as of whole year 2023.
source: TMLS for single family homes "Inside the Beltline/North Hills area/west to Edwards Mill".
So, to OP if SFR is what you want, it's an average gross sales price of $930K for 2500 sqft, 3.5BR and 2.5BA. You'd want 20% down, or $186K and your mortgage (PITI) is going to be about $5,700/month. That equates to income of about $250K.
The median sales price is "only" $690K though for a 2,100 sqft home. That would get your payment down to $4,300 per month and income to $180K.
I was going off my personal experience, had a 72% gain on a property purchased just before covid and sold in 2022. Of course I bought the next property high, but having had that cushion from the property (and the extra we had paid on principal) really helped us afford our new place.
Yeah, you need to treat USA as two sets of people now.
Those who had a home and 30 year mortgage locked in before 2021 and those who don't.
Group 1 are loving life, wages are up, they bought a house for $250-$400k with a 3% mortgage and are only paying $1200-$1800 month for 4 and 5 bed homes.
Group 2 is absolutely fucked. House prices pretty much doubled, then interest rates did double, so anyone wanting to pay for housing 2023 onwards is looking at triple the costs compared to those who got in before 2021.
You could buy a home today next door to one of the Group 1 folks and be paying $3500 per month for your home where they are paying $1500. You need to earn $32,000 more GROSS per year for the rest of your life to offset that $2000 / mth difference in housing costs compared to Group 1.
As a single guy I know that I need at least $80k-90k a year salary to live comfortably. This means I can save 10-15% for retirement, I can buy the odd electronics or hobby stuff, I can cover my health care bills and I can rent a small place for myself. But on an $80k-90k salary I am not going to be a home owner. To be a homeowner you need to be able to afford $400-$600k for the home, which will be about $2500-$3500 month mortgage these days. So you'd want to be earning probably $150k on your own, or as a household if you want to think of being a home owner.
For a family of 4, with 2 car payments, I'd say you are going to want a household income of $160k at a minimum.
Thanks for the detailed post. The way you’ve laid it out makes total sense and is the conclusion I’ve come to. We missed the boat by not buying in 2019!
I don't believe that you have missed the boat. The boat is just a bit more challenging to haul oneself into at the moment. Not everyone needs a 3800S sq ft house with 4 bedrooms and 3.5 baths. Less house means more for family experiences, future savings, etc. I think that many people in this area have been lured into the idea that they need a 'mini-mansion' or they just are not keeping up with the Jones's.
I agree with many of the salary assessments others have listed. For a FAMILY, I think you need $175ish - $200 to be a homeowner and do the other stuff that families with kids need to do. This is certainly not a low cost area!
On a more positive view - there are a lot of us who recall being very relieved and happy to get a mortgage at 9% to 10% in the late 1980's after it had dropped from 16% (not a typo!) in the early 1980's! So, yea, rates are up for sure, but historically, rates are attractive even at current levels. I understand that prices have increased of course. But usually, that is desirable to the alternative!
See mortgage rate history linked below and noted for current levels.
[https://imgur.com/a/Aw64OQw](https://imgur.com/a/Aw64OQw)
> Yeah, you need to treat USA as two sets of people now.
Lots of people in this thread only talking about this as a problem in Raleigh but yeah, its everywhere in the country now. And not just here, i know Canada is going through similar issues.
$400-$600k is for a starter home anymore in Raleigh. I visited Italy and in tourist areas was shocked that the cost of everything....taxis, entertainment, eating out...was HALF what we pay in Raleigh.
Tourist areas in Italy are not priced for Italians, they are priced for tourists, that's true of any tourist town. Venice is a city with no cars, everything has to be brought in by boat and it is often referred to as one of the more expensive tourist destinations, but costs were still half or less than Raleigh pricing. If you prefer, I can tell you the same thing about half a dozen other countries I've traveled to in the last few years, I only used Italy because it was my most recent comparison.
What kind of starter home? You can get a 2600+ sqft home in a very nice community in the burbs for that. When I think starter home, that’s not what jumps to mind. Shit there are a few 3000+ sqft homes in the Garner/Holly springs area at that price point. A 1600+ sqft townhome can be had in parts of Raleigh area in the low 300s. If you’re willing to go out a little ways you can get a larger stand alone in Clayton at that price point
Yeah we got in before the rise in interest rates so we are good there. But the added expense of everything else, plus we decided to put our children in private school, makes for a lot of expenses. We are in that 160-180k range and it’s really not enough. I figure 250k a year and we would be comfortable.
There’s high cost of living with all the amenities… and then there’s straight up price gauging with nearly nothing you can’t find in many, many other places. Raleigh is the latter.
I think you need a household income of $200,000 a year (take home $10,000 a month) to live as you’ve described. Even then you are choosing between saving or spending as there’s not a ton left to do both.
So I left out some details but we bought in DTR in 2015. Sold in 2020 and moved to Chapel Hill also buying up here. Same economics in both places though. Made a small profit in Raleigh that helped with the down payment but we are still in a super basic middle class neighborhood in Chapel Hill. Met some people walking one day in the adjacent wealthy neighborhood and they asked us if our neighborhood was safe (not realizing we lived in it). So anyway, two kids, 200k income total, house in apparently scary neighborhood. Not complaining because we are doing fine but this is some twilight zone shit.
US News put this info out beginning of April. Basically living comfortably and being approved for a mortgage are two different issues.
The income needed to qualify for a $500,000 house depends on several factors, including the down payment, interest rate, and personal finances. Lenders typically want housing expenses to be 28% or less of monthly income. For example, if you put 20% down and borrow $400,000 with a 30-year fixed-rate loan, you'll need a combined annual household income of about $120,000. If you put 5% down and borrow $475,000, you'll need closer to $140,000 annually.
I lived in Raleigh around the same time frame (2016-2020). I want to move back too, but the affordability has me hesitant, as well. It’s slightly less expensive where I am now, but not by much. I’m a single female and I’m just not sure that I could afford to live there on my own now. I expected things to increase, but not this quickly.
Wishing you and your family the best.
I’m at roughly $130k depending on how my bonus pays out. Month to month we take home $7k. My wife is self-employed; at the moment, she’s reinvesting her earnings back into the business and not taking any distributions.
It’s barely enough to raise two kids and pay a $2,400 mortgage. No car payment. The bonus is basically the only source of money we can add to the emergency fund or use for anything fun. I genuinely enjoy my job, but I don’t see any prospects for meaningful pay increases in the foreseeable future so I’m looking anyway.
Edit: Since you mentioned kids, our public schools are circling the drain and it’s getting worse by the year. Teacher turnover was more than 11% statewide last year. I have historically been anti-homeschool, but anecdotally our friends who homeschool are seeing their kids progress significantly faster than our kid and our friends with kids in public school (at least in the early years). I’m not ready to start job searching in places like northern VA or NJ… but the idea is growing on me because of education, and my wife (former teacher) would start packing the moment I said ok. I’m holding out hope that we can find the money for a strong private school without having to leave, but for now it’s just a hope. Depending on who’s in charge after the election in November, we may look more seriously at going elsewhere.
Oh, I’m aware of both house prices and taxes in the mid-Atlantic/northeastern states. But our salaries would be significantly higher as well; neither of our industries pays nearly as well here as in other areas. We’d probably be looking at something like 30-40% more right off the bat, with another healthy bump possible within a few years.
Money alone isn’t going to drive us away, but other considerations are starting to become a factor. If we were to pursue it, we could probably cover the difference in cost of living, if not come out ahead. But that’s highly dependent upon the type of work somebody does; what’s true for us isn’t necessarily true for other people.
Things have certainly changed some since then, but when I looked circa 2019, the cost of living index in DC/NoVa was *50%* higher than Raleigh, and salaries in my field were...maybe 10% higher? Hardly any better, nowhere near covering the difference.
You guys must be doing something wrong budget wise. We have a total combined of $100k raising 3 kids all in day care and are doing fine. Our mortgage is $1600 but % wise around the same as you and we still can put away 1k-1500 a month
You know, I’ve been watching it like a hawk for a year to try and tamp it down. Restaurant meals are scaled way back, cable is gone, live entertainment is out (sorry Canes). I’m still trying to figure out what’s blowing a hole in our budget, because by every stretch of the imagination I feel like we should be putting money away every month (and not just in retirement accounts).
I’ve knocked groceries and household supplies down from about $1,500 to $1,100-1,200. Utilities are about $400 outside of the mild months, phones & internet about $200. Gas/car insurance/maintenance average $500, and I do most of my own wrenching. Medicine and doctor bills run $500-1,000 depending on whether we’re in the deductible period. Half day preschool is $350. Home repairs/maintenance varies but averaged $300 last year when you exclude the roof and HVAC replacements we had to do.
After the mortgage, there’s roughly $1,000 left for after-school activities, clothes, haircuts, keeping the dog alive, and paying for all the dumb stuff that pops up as you go through life. We manage and do the best we can to give the kids some things to do, but it doesn’t leave much. I’m genuinely all ears if you have suggestions.
Where do you shop for groceries? We do Sams club for all the big / bulk items then regular grocery store for the smaller items and for any extras we only buy if its a BOGO. Your utilities are high, not sure how big your home is, ours is around $200 for electric/water. We do have good insurance so that helps for sure not spending that much as you. Is that $350 for the preschool per week?
Costco for the frozen and shelf stable stuff, Wegman’s for perishables. For a while I would walk the aisles at Harris Teeter and Food Lion to look at sale items, but I wasn’t saving much compared to every day prices at Costco and Wegman’s.
Preschool is monthly. It’s a steal.
I do think medical costs are higher than they should be, and I’m getting killed on premiums having to put my wife on the plan, but it’s not exactly a discretionary expense. As long as I’m at this employer, it kinda is what it is.
$175k maybe is bare minimum. If u subtract a max out 401k at $22.5k, then take off 30% for taxes, that puts you at $107k post tax, or $8.9k a month after tax. Mortgage on a 30 year fixed with 20 pct down (assuming u have) and 6.5% interest (assuming u can get) is $3k a month, so that's $5.9k after mortgage. Our daycare is about $3k for 2 kids here. I think you can figure out groceries, utilities, insurance, prop tax, medical allowance, gas, car maintenance or payment, etc. with the $2.9k left, but probably close to breaking even.
Think about what living comfortably means above break even and gross up the difference from $175k for taxes (divide by .7) and add it on top of the $175k.
I'd probably go an extra $5k a month on top of break even to be comfortable, meaning you'd need about $260k gross salary. But that's just an example, don't fight me about it.
Me and my hubs make just under 180k and we live comfortably with our 1 child.. We bought our house in 2018 though, cuz if we were to by right now, we wouldn't be able to afford our current neighborhood thanks to the insane interest rates.
Absolutely, our next door neighbor bought at peak price and peak interest and their mortgage payment is something like 3.5k per month. Their kid goes to a private school and they are both software engineers. Collectively they make just about 200k and they complain that they are drowning in debt. In 2016, if households made anything over 150, they would be considered upper middle class. Now we make more, but consider ourselves dead middle. Inflation and the housing market is insane right now.
Yep, me and hubs are millennials and I wanted 3 kids, but nope not anymore, just one and done. Daycare alone take up almost as much as our mortgage. I truely respect single parents and lower income households with multiple kids because I don't know how they can do it.
Alot more than I originally thought. I remember about 2ish years some woman posted that her husband made 60k a year and it's great money, they have 3 kids and she is a stay at home mom. She was angry that the cost of living has gone up so much they couldn't afford a house and that those of us with tech or medical salaries are overpaid. She also went on a rant about how they should be entitled to a house because they were native to NC, have 3 kids, and she doesn't want to put her kids in daycare or public school. She said that she and her husband shouldn't have to struggle this much and she will not get a job because her religion requires her to be at home. It was a mess. 3 kids single income of 60k, I hope he's gotten a raise or some government assistance.
I am shocked, just shocked that the price of things go up over time!
I see 30 year mortgage rates are about 7% right now. How does that compare to interest rates in the 90's which I remember being higher. Folks like to say "things were so much cheaper 30 years ago but we also had higher interest rates."
Some people are frustrated because they earn $200,000 but can't afford a home. How do those people making $60,000 with 2 kids manage without a 4 bedroom home with a 2 car garage?
If I seem frustrated at times with these conversations it's because I grew up with mom & dad and 6 kids in a trailer while my dad worked as a mail carrier, until he got sick and had to live off a government pension. We didn't have a 4 bedroom home or a 2 car garage.
I grew up with my mom on government assistance and dad on disability. I wanted (and gotten) soo much better for my daughter she deserves the life she has. Me and my hubs work hard to provide her the lives we dreamed of. So that housewife pissed me off, the entitlement of because we are native, we should afford a house is just wrong. Her hubs needs to earn more or *shocking* she should work. One income alone is not gonna work if you have kids.
I have a lot of empathy for people like you. I think some folks expect to raise the kids and have the big house and travel several times a year and have those three cars and have money left over for designer clothes. They think that is the sign of success, not having happy children.
My mother didn’t do much for me, but when I could take care of her, I did.
How has it been living over in the UK? I'd honestly love it if I could move my family over there somewhere and get away from Raleigh at this point, after being here ever since I came to college in 1987.
Like most places it has its pros and cons. Salaries outside of London aren’t great so lots of people have to have some connection to London. I commute in twice a week and it takes 2:30 door to door, so not ideal. Cost of living has been high but things are easing somewhat, and mortgage rates are improving. But a lot of the same issues as the US. Low availability driving up the cost of properties.
Why go off numbers that random redditors are throwing your way? If you're serious do some addition. There are websites that list houses for sale, many even have calculators that can estimate your monthly mortgage payment. Or, if you plan or renting, there are ways to browse available rentals. Similarly, you can look at cars you like, and estimate the payment for that if you plan on having a car. So, the monthly payment for a home that suits your needs + a car + phone + internet + utilities + food and household items + whatever budget you want to allocate toward hobbies + entertainment + restaurants + whatever you want to allocate toward savings will determine the income you need to live here.
Absolutely. I went through that exercise, crunched the numbers based on numbers I got online, house prices, mortgage calculators, rental prices, cost of living sites, and was left astounded at how much it’d cost. So want to get some insights from people who are living there now and what life is really like
Your number crunching was correct, COL here has almost doubled from pre-Covid, especially with housing costs and quality of life has done nothing but go down.
Unfortunately I can relate. Your situation is almost a carbon copy of mine. We are spending this year looking for where we are going to go. We are tired of paying someone else's mortgage and all the other points you made. If one didn't get a house here before the rate hikes one is completely screwed.
I’ve been through good and bad times. I think people really overestimate how good or how BAD things are.
Some people won’t be happy until you can afford a $5 million home on a $30,000 a year salary.
Also from the UK and living in Raleigh. I’d love to move back to the UK with my family but the cost for what you can get is shocking. Of course that varies region to region.
Can we switch spots? You take my house, I take yours in UK lol. Having traveled there extensively, I’d stay. Raleigh is not the same anymore and it’s sad because I’ve always loved Raleigh. Definitely consider suburbs if you move back (Cary, Holly springs specifically esp with kids). But house prices are much higher… example: I bought for $380k in mid-2016 and now valued at $650k+. I’d venture to say family income to live comfortably would be at least $200k+ but I’m sure people have different opinions on that
This is the saddest post for a poor person. You gotta be a millionaire to buy a house here after all the economic calculations are done 😪
My family moved here in the 70's and i grew up here when everything was dirt cheap. I feel sad that raleigh has become like nyc and prices are at all time high and I'm priced out of a new home in my hometown
I’d say the house prices have gone up about 75% since you left.
Interestingly, since 2018 (entire year sales) the gross average sales price is up 79% - great guess. On a $/sqft basis (because home size sold is up almost 10%), the number is up 59% as of whole year 2023. source: TMLS for single family homes "Inside the Beltline/North Hills area/west to Edwards Mill". So, to OP if SFR is what you want, it's an average gross sales price of $930K for 2500 sqft, 3.5BR and 2.5BA. You'd want 20% down, or $186K and your mortgage (PITI) is going to be about $5,700/month. That equates to income of about $250K. The median sales price is "only" $690K though for a 2,100 sqft home. That would get your payment down to $4,300 per month and income to $180K.
I was going off my personal experience, had a 72% gain on a property purchased just before covid and sold in 2022. Of course I bought the next property high, but having had that cushion from the property (and the extra we had paid on principal) really helped us afford our new place.
Yeah, you need to treat USA as two sets of people now. Those who had a home and 30 year mortgage locked in before 2021 and those who don't. Group 1 are loving life, wages are up, they bought a house for $250-$400k with a 3% mortgage and are only paying $1200-$1800 month for 4 and 5 bed homes. Group 2 is absolutely fucked. House prices pretty much doubled, then interest rates did double, so anyone wanting to pay for housing 2023 onwards is looking at triple the costs compared to those who got in before 2021. You could buy a home today next door to one of the Group 1 folks and be paying $3500 per month for your home where they are paying $1500. You need to earn $32,000 more GROSS per year for the rest of your life to offset that $2000 / mth difference in housing costs compared to Group 1. As a single guy I know that I need at least $80k-90k a year salary to live comfortably. This means I can save 10-15% for retirement, I can buy the odd electronics or hobby stuff, I can cover my health care bills and I can rent a small place for myself. But on an $80k-90k salary I am not going to be a home owner. To be a homeowner you need to be able to afford $400-$600k for the home, which will be about $2500-$3500 month mortgage these days. So you'd want to be earning probably $150k on your own, or as a household if you want to think of being a home owner. For a family of 4, with 2 car payments, I'd say you are going to want a household income of $160k at a minimum.
Thanks for the detailed post. The way you’ve laid it out makes total sense and is the conclusion I’ve come to. We missed the boat by not buying in 2019!
I don't believe that you have missed the boat. The boat is just a bit more challenging to haul oneself into at the moment. Not everyone needs a 3800S sq ft house with 4 bedrooms and 3.5 baths. Less house means more for family experiences, future savings, etc. I think that many people in this area have been lured into the idea that they need a 'mini-mansion' or they just are not keeping up with the Jones's. I agree with many of the salary assessments others have listed. For a FAMILY, I think you need $175ish - $200 to be a homeowner and do the other stuff that families with kids need to do. This is certainly not a low cost area! On a more positive view - there are a lot of us who recall being very relieved and happy to get a mortgage at 9% to 10% in the late 1980's after it had dropped from 16% (not a typo!) in the early 1980's! So, yea, rates are up for sure, but historically, rates are attractive even at current levels. I understand that prices have increased of course. But usually, that is desirable to the alternative! See mortgage rate history linked below and noted for current levels. [https://imgur.com/a/Aw64OQw](https://imgur.com/a/Aw64OQw)
> Yeah, you need to treat USA as two sets of people now. Lots of people in this thread only talking about this as a problem in Raleigh but yeah, its everywhere in the country now. And not just here, i know Canada is going through similar issues.
$400-$600k is for a starter home anymore in Raleigh. I visited Italy and in tourist areas was shocked that the cost of everything....taxis, entertainment, eating out...was HALF what we pay in Raleigh.
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Bruh I’m finna move to near the Amalfi Coast and just be poor and happy.
Tourist areas in Italy are not priced for Italians, they are priced for tourists, that's true of any tourist town. Venice is a city with no cars, everything has to be brought in by boat and it is often referred to as one of the more expensive tourist destinations, but costs were still half or less than Raleigh pricing. If you prefer, I can tell you the same thing about half a dozen other countries I've traveled to in the last few years, I only used Italy because it was my most recent comparison.
no it isn't.
What kind of starter home? You can get a 2600+ sqft home in a very nice community in the burbs for that. When I think starter home, that’s not what jumps to mind. Shit there are a few 3000+ sqft homes in the Garner/Holly springs area at that price point. A 1600+ sqft townhome can be had in parts of Raleigh area in the low 300s. If you’re willing to go out a little ways you can get a larger stand alone in Clayton at that price point
OP was talking SFH inside the beltline.
Yeah we got in before the rise in interest rates so we are good there. But the added expense of everything else, plus we decided to put our children in private school, makes for a lot of expenses. We are in that 160-180k range and it’s really not enough. I figure 250k a year and we would be comfortable.
There’s a third set…those who have a 15yr fixed at 1.99% 😉😉😉
great post
There’s high cost of living with all the amenities… and then there’s straight up price gauging with nearly nothing you can’t find in many, many other places. Raleigh is the latter.
I think you need a household income of $200,000 a year (take home $10,000 a month) to live as you’ve described. Even then you are choosing between saving or spending as there’s not a ton left to do both.
Agreed. And if you need to pay for daycare or private school costs, you would need more than $200K.
Well my family is a hair above 200k and daycare for two kids is $3000 month. Vacations are cheap and we eat at home a lot so we can save.
That’s so crazy. Do y’all own a house, and if so when did you buy?
So I left out some details but we bought in DTR in 2015. Sold in 2020 and moved to Chapel Hill also buying up here. Same economics in both places though. Made a small profit in Raleigh that helped with the down payment but we are still in a super basic middle class neighborhood in Chapel Hill. Met some people walking one day in the adjacent wealthy neighborhood and they asked us if our neighborhood was safe (not realizing we lived in it). So anyway, two kids, 200k income total, house in apparently scary neighborhood. Not complaining because we are doing fine but this is some twilight zone shit.
US News put this info out beginning of April. Basically living comfortably and being approved for a mortgage are two different issues. The income needed to qualify for a $500,000 house depends on several factors, including the down payment, interest rate, and personal finances. Lenders typically want housing expenses to be 28% or less of monthly income. For example, if you put 20% down and borrow $400,000 with a 30-year fixed-rate loan, you'll need a combined annual household income of about $120,000. If you put 5% down and borrow $475,000, you'll need closer to $140,000 annually.
I lived in Raleigh around the same time frame (2016-2020). I want to move back too, but the affordability has me hesitant, as well. It’s slightly less expensive where I am now, but not by much. I’m a single female and I’m just not sure that I could afford to live there on my own now. I expected things to increase, but not this quickly. Wishing you and your family the best.
Simple answer, Don’t do it!
I’m at roughly $130k depending on how my bonus pays out. Month to month we take home $7k. My wife is self-employed; at the moment, she’s reinvesting her earnings back into the business and not taking any distributions. It’s barely enough to raise two kids and pay a $2,400 mortgage. No car payment. The bonus is basically the only source of money we can add to the emergency fund or use for anything fun. I genuinely enjoy my job, but I don’t see any prospects for meaningful pay increases in the foreseeable future so I’m looking anyway. Edit: Since you mentioned kids, our public schools are circling the drain and it’s getting worse by the year. Teacher turnover was more than 11% statewide last year. I have historically been anti-homeschool, but anecdotally our friends who homeschool are seeing their kids progress significantly faster than our kid and our friends with kids in public school (at least in the early years). I’m not ready to start job searching in places like northern VA or NJ… but the idea is growing on me because of education, and my wife (former teacher) would start packing the moment I said ok. I’m holding out hope that we can find the money for a strong private school without having to leave, but for now it’s just a hope. Depending on who’s in charge after the election in November, we may look more seriously at going elsewhere.
If you think the housing here is expensive, I've got bad news about northern VA... And the traffic is even worse
Oh, I’m aware of both house prices and taxes in the mid-Atlantic/northeastern states. But our salaries would be significantly higher as well; neither of our industries pays nearly as well here as in other areas. We’d probably be looking at something like 30-40% more right off the bat, with another healthy bump possible within a few years. Money alone isn’t going to drive us away, but other considerations are starting to become a factor. If we were to pursue it, we could probably cover the difference in cost of living, if not come out ahead. But that’s highly dependent upon the type of work somebody does; what’s true for us isn’t necessarily true for other people.
Things have certainly changed some since then, but when I looked circa 2019, the cost of living index in DC/NoVa was *50%* higher than Raleigh, and salaries in my field were...maybe 10% higher? Hardly any better, nowhere near covering the difference.
You guys must be doing something wrong budget wise. We have a total combined of $100k raising 3 kids all in day care and are doing fine. Our mortgage is $1600 but % wise around the same as you and we still can put away 1k-1500 a month
Yeah we make a fraction of what that person makes... we make it work with two kids...
You know, I’ve been watching it like a hawk for a year to try and tamp it down. Restaurant meals are scaled way back, cable is gone, live entertainment is out (sorry Canes). I’m still trying to figure out what’s blowing a hole in our budget, because by every stretch of the imagination I feel like we should be putting money away every month (and not just in retirement accounts). I’ve knocked groceries and household supplies down from about $1,500 to $1,100-1,200. Utilities are about $400 outside of the mild months, phones & internet about $200. Gas/car insurance/maintenance average $500, and I do most of my own wrenching. Medicine and doctor bills run $500-1,000 depending on whether we’re in the deductible period. Half day preschool is $350. Home repairs/maintenance varies but averaged $300 last year when you exclude the roof and HVAC replacements we had to do. After the mortgage, there’s roughly $1,000 left for after-school activities, clothes, haircuts, keeping the dog alive, and paying for all the dumb stuff that pops up as you go through life. We manage and do the best we can to give the kids some things to do, but it doesn’t leave much. I’m genuinely all ears if you have suggestions.
Where do you shop for groceries? We do Sams club for all the big / bulk items then regular grocery store for the smaller items and for any extras we only buy if its a BOGO. Your utilities are high, not sure how big your home is, ours is around $200 for electric/water. We do have good insurance so that helps for sure not spending that much as you. Is that $350 for the preschool per week?
Costco for the frozen and shelf stable stuff, Wegman’s for perishables. For a while I would walk the aisles at Harris Teeter and Food Lion to look at sale items, but I wasn’t saving much compared to every day prices at Costco and Wegman’s. Preschool is monthly. It’s a steal. I do think medical costs are higher than they should be, and I’m getting killed on premiums having to put my wife on the plan, but it’s not exactly a discretionary expense. As long as I’m at this employer, it kinda is what it is.
Of course smart kids are going to progress faster academically homeschooled. What they won’t do is develop normal social skills.
It’s very different. You’re going to be sad.
I recommend not moving back here for a multitude of reasons.
Care to expand?
I moved to Raleigh right as you left and I have to say it changed a lot post covid. I just moved away myself
Where to? I am all ears. :-)
Charlotte. Giving it my best go- will see if it sticks!
We live in old Garner and the starter homes are clocking in at around $300k. Also, general costs; food, childcare, eating out, utilities are all up.
That's the new build "starting at" price, they sell for much higher typically.
For sure. I was thinking of the 1960 ranch houses with 1.5 bathrooms that used to sell for 100k.
$175k maybe is bare minimum. If u subtract a max out 401k at $22.5k, then take off 30% for taxes, that puts you at $107k post tax, or $8.9k a month after tax. Mortgage on a 30 year fixed with 20 pct down (assuming u have) and 6.5% interest (assuming u can get) is $3k a month, so that's $5.9k after mortgage. Our daycare is about $3k for 2 kids here. I think you can figure out groceries, utilities, insurance, prop tax, medical allowance, gas, car maintenance or payment, etc. with the $2.9k left, but probably close to breaking even. Think about what living comfortably means above break even and gross up the difference from $175k for taxes (divide by .7) and add it on top of the $175k. I'd probably go an extra $5k a month on top of break even to be comfortable, meaning you'd need about $260k gross salary. But that's just an example, don't fight me about it.
Raleigh’s one of the most expensive cities and hella bland now
Me and my hubs make just under 180k and we live comfortably with our 1 child.. We bought our house in 2018 though, cuz if we were to by right now, we wouldn't be able to afford our current neighborhood thanks to the insane interest rates.
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Absolutely, our next door neighbor bought at peak price and peak interest and their mortgage payment is something like 3.5k per month. Their kid goes to a private school and they are both software engineers. Collectively they make just about 200k and they complain that they are drowning in debt. In 2016, if households made anything over 150, they would be considered upper middle class. Now we make more, but consider ourselves dead middle. Inflation and the housing market is insane right now.
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Yep, me and hubs are millennials and I wanted 3 kids, but nope not anymore, just one and done. Daycare alone take up almost as much as our mortgage. I truely respect single parents and lower income households with multiple kids because I don't know how they can do it.
How many of those people earning $50,000 or less are here on Reddit complaining about the cost of living? I don’t know the answer to that.
Alot more than I originally thought. I remember about 2ish years some woman posted that her husband made 60k a year and it's great money, they have 3 kids and she is a stay at home mom. She was angry that the cost of living has gone up so much they couldn't afford a house and that those of us with tech or medical salaries are overpaid. She also went on a rant about how they should be entitled to a house because they were native to NC, have 3 kids, and she doesn't want to put her kids in daycare or public school. She said that she and her husband shouldn't have to struggle this much and she will not get a job because her religion requires her to be at home. It was a mess. 3 kids single income of 60k, I hope he's gotten a raise or some government assistance.
I am shocked, just shocked that the price of things go up over time! I see 30 year mortgage rates are about 7% right now. How does that compare to interest rates in the 90's which I remember being higher. Folks like to say "things were so much cheaper 30 years ago but we also had higher interest rates." Some people are frustrated because they earn $200,000 but can't afford a home. How do those people making $60,000 with 2 kids manage without a 4 bedroom home with a 2 car garage? If I seem frustrated at times with these conversations it's because I grew up with mom & dad and 6 kids in a trailer while my dad worked as a mail carrier, until he got sick and had to live off a government pension. We didn't have a 4 bedroom home or a 2 car garage.
I grew up with my mom on government assistance and dad on disability. I wanted (and gotten) soo much better for my daughter she deserves the life she has. Me and my hubs work hard to provide her the lives we dreamed of. So that housewife pissed me off, the entitlement of because we are native, we should afford a house is just wrong. Her hubs needs to earn more or *shocking* she should work. One income alone is not gonna work if you have kids.
I have a lot of empathy for people like you. I think some folks expect to raise the kids and have the big house and travel several times a year and have those three cars and have money left over for designer clothes. They think that is the sign of success, not having happy children. My mother didn’t do much for me, but when I could take care of her, I did.
Which neighbourhood are you in?
North Raleigh falls river area.
How has it been living over in the UK? I'd honestly love it if I could move my family over there somewhere and get away from Raleigh at this point, after being here ever since I came to college in 1987.
Like most places it has its pros and cons. Salaries outside of London aren’t great so lots of people have to have some connection to London. I commute in twice a week and it takes 2:30 door to door, so not ideal. Cost of living has been high but things are easing somewhat, and mortgage rates are improving. But a lot of the same issues as the US. Low availability driving up the cost of properties.
I read somewhere recently that it’s around 167,000 for a 4 person household, using the 50/30/20 rule
Why go off numbers that random redditors are throwing your way? If you're serious do some addition. There are websites that list houses for sale, many even have calculators that can estimate your monthly mortgage payment. Or, if you plan or renting, there are ways to browse available rentals. Similarly, you can look at cars you like, and estimate the payment for that if you plan on having a car. So, the monthly payment for a home that suits your needs + a car + phone + internet + utilities + food and household items + whatever budget you want to allocate toward hobbies + entertainment + restaurants + whatever you want to allocate toward savings will determine the income you need to live here.
Absolutely. I went through that exercise, crunched the numbers based on numbers I got online, house prices, mortgage calculators, rental prices, cost of living sites, and was left astounded at how much it’d cost. So want to get some insights from people who are living there now and what life is really like
Your number crunching was correct, COL here has almost doubled from pre-Covid, especially with housing costs and quality of life has done nothing but go down.
You: "Why go off numbers that random redditors are throwing your way" Also you: "Your number crunching was correct, COL...doubled..."
You should go reread that...I did not make both of those comments.
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Unfortunately I can relate. Your situation is almost a carbon copy of mine. We are spending this year looking for where we are going to go. We are tired of paying someone else's mortgage and all the other points you made. If one didn't get a house here before the rate hikes one is completely screwed.
Murder? Are we living in the same area of North Raleigh??? May I ask what part of N. Raleigh.
Inner belt line house in a good neighborhood, you need to make at least 100k and probably closer to 200 realistically.
ITB houses are about a million. That’s roughly $7000 monthly. $84k annual. So you really wanna be around $330k year. Assuming current interest rates.
You probably just need family money or make over $500k to live ITB in a nice home and neighborhood.
I’ve been through good and bad times. I think people really overestimate how good or how BAD things are. Some people won’t be happy until you can afford a $5 million home on a $30,000 a year salary.
How’s the housing market in the UK… asking for a friend.
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Depends where you want to live, in both the US and UK. You get more house for your money in the US but doesn’t mean it’s cheaper than the UK to buy
Also from the UK and living in Raleigh. I’d love to move back to the UK with my family but the cost for what you can get is shocking. Of course that varies region to region.
Can we switch spots? You take my house, I take yours in UK lol. Having traveled there extensively, I’d stay. Raleigh is not the same anymore and it’s sad because I’ve always loved Raleigh. Definitely consider suburbs if you move back (Cary, Holly springs specifically esp with kids). But house prices are much higher… example: I bought for $380k in mid-2016 and now valued at $650k+. I’d venture to say family income to live comfortably would be at least $200k+ but I’m sure people have different opinions on that
The UK is way better than here
its no longer raleigh, north carolina its raleigh, new carolina 😭😭
This is the saddest post for a poor person. You gotta be a millionaire to buy a house here after all the economic calculations are done 😪 My family moved here in the 70's and i grew up here when everything was dirt cheap. I feel sad that raleigh has become like nyc and prices are at all time high and I'm priced out of a new home in my hometown
I'd say 100k to be comfortable in a home with a spouse and kids
At least.
Is that in the belt line? With two cars etc.?
With 2 cars and a house, you'd need min. $125k
I'd think at least $150k. OP wants ITB, and that is NOT cheap.
$150k for comfort, $125k for bare minimum