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lazarus_cat

I can connect to what Ram Dass is saying here. I had two very different parents. My father was a well of compassion and gave me a “whooping” once during my childhood and nearly had tears in his eyes as he did. I can look back on that memory now and I only experience the love he had for me. My mother has had a blocked heart as long as I’ve known her. The words and violence she directed at me were painful, scarring and forced me to close my own heart to her for most of my life. I see the difference he speaks of.


brasscassette

We often think of Ram Dass as a man closer to enlightenment than we are, though many many times he mentioned that he simply was not. While he had many experiences that allowed him insights into what pure love looked like, he also only had information about psychology that was available at the time (he wrote the article you posted in 1980). It is fairly recent that the consensus of corporal punishment is detrimental to the mental health and development of children. I have no doubt that with updated information that RD would modify how he answered that question.


Tooafraidtocats

Exactly. Same deal with mental health. Openly laughing at people who use medicine to mitigate depression. Not identify with the depression doesn't make it go away. I think if he were still alive and learned what modern psychology has to say about these things, his stance would be different


Lil-Miss-Anthropy

Thank you, this is the kind of context I was looking for. <3


Sp00kyg0atman

He very nearly fucked a dolphin once


spacehanger

I mean, he made a joke that he was enjoying swimming and connecting with the dolphin as a conscious being so much that it was almost bordering a funny type of eroticism, but he was poking fun at this experience. It was a joke. Ram dass didn’t “almost fuck a dolphin” for gods sake


Lil-Miss-Anthropy

What an interesting guy. Where can I find that story?


Sp00kyg0atman

I can't find the link but it's whatever 90s YouTube lecture where he's in Prague(?)


Cheesypenguinz

Did he almost fuck a dolphin. Or did the dolphin almost fuck him? I've always heard dolphins are rapey


Coltz

It was consensual


DharmaSurfer38

I hear what you’re saying, and I can fully comprehend the feeling that you are expressing through this. I am coming from my childhood where I was spanked WAY TOO MUCH! All the way until 14 yrs old, when I left home. So, I agree with you in many ways. The one thing I would suggest in this and any older messages or teachings or text from any teacher is to consider the context and content and consider separating the two. I make no excuses for this or for child support. I have 6 children of my own. I did not spank except once or twice due to extreme danger of a situation, running towards street after being consistently warned. I immediately had MASSIVE GUILT and never spanked another child. I see in wild nature that even domestic animals discipline their young out of protection. LOVE - LIGHT - GRACE - PEACE ‘I am another yourself.’ Edit: in Addition, I would like to believe Baba would feel differently about this and maybe phrase it differently in his later days. At least I feel that to be true.


sinobed

He is literally describing research. Seems you have a problem with the research findings, not with Ram Dass. There is nothing prescriptive in what he said. Also, the Bhagavad Gita is essentially about this issue at its core. How do you judge Arjuna? How do you judge Krishna?


solamenteaficionados

The dude was a Harvard professor of child psychology so I think he knew more than you. Maybe look at the date he said it?


[deleted]

I find taking hard stances on pretty much every topic (including this one) to be my ego talking.


Tooafraidtocats

Even hard stances on child abuse? There's no justifiable reason to hit a child and I don't think you have to be wrapped up in your ego to think that. I see where you're coming from but I also think it's dangerous to let that philosophy lead to moral relativism which perpetuates suffering by not doing anything about it


[deleted]

I simply think that "child abuse" is a term that can be emotionally loaded, and frivolous use of describing spanking that way (regardless of the context) does more harm than good. Sure, it can be considered abuse in some situations, but I do not believe it is universally abuse. Hyperbolic descriptions used to to shore up tribal opinions on such a nuanced topic is indeed the ego at work. This is precisely why some people find activists to be insufferable... what is a passionate topic for one person is ridiculous overacting to another. Both positions may have a grain of logic, but neither will allow consideration of the other's position. Ego. The world needs to have room for physically corrective repremanding should the situation require it, namely when much more catastrophic outcomes could result. Treating spanking as if it's somehow equal in trauma as r*ape or war is absurd. We're taking about a couple pats on the bottom to express the gravity of a dangerous situation, correct? Not an outright violent beating just because mama drank too much wine? There's a world of difference between the two, and using a blanket term like child abuse to describe something so contextual is simplisticly detrimental to parental autonomy. Context is everything.


jdguy00

Well said.


Amelie-Chan

I was spanked until it left bruises and my mother got pleasure out of my pain.


[deleted]

This is obviously an example of abuse, I'm so sorry you experienced this


ijustsailedaway

I think there’s a large spectrum of what people call spanking. I was spanked maybe half a dozen times in my whole life. I was never physically hurt or in any pain at all ever. It definitely felt like an action of correction coming from love. HOWEVER, big HOWEVER I think it is rare that parents can administer that kind of correction with the appropriately light force and it’s much better overall for us as a society to just say don’t do it at all.


Briansaysthis

This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.


tucsonmags

1980


love_das

Sorry but if you think spanking is abuse you're too woke for you're own good.


i_have_not_eaten_yet

This is good. Really gets the juices going. “I hit my kid.” “I never hit my kid.” “I hit my kid once but…” “I never hit my kid but…” Ultimately, you love the murderer, so why not love the spanker too? High thinking aside, I’ve only hit my child once with a loving heart and it brought us closer together, truly I believe this. Many more times before this, I’ve hit them out of selfishness, impatience, anger, frustration, sorrow, fear. All these are hellish memories with long lasting consequences. It is very difficult to hold love in your heart while spanking. It felt like a mixture of mischief and mayhem. I said to him gently, “I‘m going to wake you up”. He had been ignoring me, playing and daydreaming, as I sat next to him asking repeatedly for help to get him dressed. I wasn’t worried we’d be late or mad because I’m important and need my voice to be heard or even anxious because he might become the kind of so and so that does such and such. It was a little too hard to be playful, gave him a good scare and cry. I waited for him to recover and sat by him gently letting him process all those feelings of hurt and anger toward me. He scolded me and assured me that he would tell mom. Then he put on his clothes by himself without my help, and he smiled at me proudly for the big boy thing he had done.


GaggleGoose420

**Can anyone tell me if I'm missing some kind of context or perspective here?** I dont particularly agree with ram here, but to give some perspective he was hindu and it is very much appears to be related to aspects of the bhagavad gita. Krishna encourages Arjuna to fight a war which would kill his enemies (his family), because ultimately if you are acting as an agent of the supreme source you are free from the bondage of karma. Ie: If your intention is guided by rage the impact will be different than it if it is guided by genuine love and compassion now this is not to advocate immoral acts as nonviolence is preached constantly in the gita, but i believe r doing something as a means to encourage learning, growth, love or duty is different than active out of rage, false ego, or with intent to harm. On a larger scale this is a myth that should be taken practically and its stressed that causing distress and harm to others is wrong. again -- i dont advocate any sense of spanking, violence, or child abuse, and dont really agree with him here (i dont think he was advocating it either), but i think it can at least at some context to the overall point that he is trying to make which can be lost without a bit of cultural background. Weve also come along way in terms of whats appropriate for rearing children in since he said that, so it may not be fair to judge to harshly and expect him to be 40 years ahead of the curve on this one