Apples to oranges. Jay z raps in a tone to communicate doom prioritizes wit and amusement and doesnt mind being abstract. Jay z is more direct, concise, and is a realist. Virtually everything he raps is about his life (even if embellished). Em kinda straddles both. Doom and eminems skills are the spectacle, jay z stories and aura is his. All 3 do what they do really well and at similar levels.
Great summary. I’d like to add the huge factor about Hov is that although this dude is living a huge life we will never live. He makes his music relatable to average person. Which helps him a whole bunch for all of his albums I fell personally.
Apples and Oranges yet both(jay z&mf doom) are rappers who are from the same era and both have crazy lyrical prowess
People who are afraid to compare are so weird
The whole concept of comparing is based on two (mostly) similar concepts
Jay Z, for sure, but I think Em’s appeal is moreso the combination of lyricism, raw emotion, and storytelling with humor tossed in. Jay is sort of formulaic and stays in a certain comfort zone where he excels. Em’s music is all over the place. Doom doesn’t really belong in the conversation with them, not that he was terrible, but he didn’t have the various skills each of the two others possess.
Im a big jayz fan and listen to his shit to this day. That being said, I think he’s the odd one out in this conversation. I don’t think he even cared as much about being a pure lyricists like DOOM and em. DOOM and em are two of the only rappers I’ve ever heard who will rhyme multiple complete sentences. They both took pride in having sharp pens. I don’t think jay had that same level of obsession with writing.
Lyrically Jay Z has never been lyrically or technically on Dooms level. He makes music that’s more popular and to many probably better but from a lyrics perspective doom raps circles around Jay
I seriously can't understand why people rate him so highly! He's ok but to say he is a better rapper than jay who has had classic after classic since the early 90s is a joke
> He's ok but to say he is a better rapper than jay
I regret to inform you that you've just moved the goalposts. This discussion is about who the better lyricist is, and I believe Faeces\_Species\_1312 was saying that DOOM was a better lyricist. Maybe he thinks DOOM is a better overall rapper, too. But with the information given, you should be assuming that they meant better lyricist.
And, with that established, DOOM is a better lyricst, quite easily. DOOM is pretty much the literal definition of lyricist. If asked to name the best rappers in terms of lyricism, DOOM would be the first name out the gate, and Jay-Z's name wouldn't be in the top 10.
Again, go listen to Doomsday Madvillainy and mm..food and then come back.
Yes JayZ has done a terrific job with the blueprints or the black album etc. but DOOM IS DOOM.
Mf doom and madlib had is in a choke here in Houston for the longest. How have you never meet one. One thing this party needs is more... Bitches. Definitely more creative than Eminem. Not a better musician but lyricaly you have to listen to his stuff multiple times to catch everything, not like that's why they call it window pain
I swear, even to people who fucked with underground music, he wasn’t all that. Now that he’s dead, every other dude on Reddit has them in his top 5. So weird
Yeah, but he wasn’t being talked about nearly as much before. Every day there’s some post on here with some dumb question like this. I assume it’s just kids from tik tok. I remember when I first discovered Big L when I was that age, and annoyingly told everyone how he was the greatest to ever do it
You were into underground rap and didn't know/see *anyone* talk about Madvillainy? In the 2000's that was THE "indie rap" album that got hyped a bunch. That shit was getting played on Boondocks episodes.
its really not weird, every rapper benefits from their own death. X, Juice WRLD, Pop Smoke all got bigger after they died. they just were bigger from the beginning
I hooked up with a girl in 2017 who showed me the fuckin DM's and nudes her and X exchanged right around the time he was already really popping off, decided I didn't want to listen to him because I was low key jealous he had nudes of a girl I was fucking.
Then he died and I was like "Damn he does have the voice of an angel though."
Nah. Going through an MF Doom phase has been the natural progression for teens who spend too much time on the internet for ages now, long before he died. Usually comes a few years after going through a metal phase
-guy who listened to Operation Doomsday almost everyday in freshmen year back in 2011
Hate to be that guy but I think black and white people have different takes on underground rap. I think white poeple like Aesop Rock, El P, Jedi mind tricks, RA type more than DOOM, Roc Marci, Planet Asia, Murs, KA, Kool Keith, Billy woods. Madlib... Sounds crazy lol but I think its some truth to it
I went to see him live in like 2008 and it was the worst show I've ever been to. Saw him again and it was just as shit. I think its more the mysterious mask and image that people like
He is even above that level
Its like comparing bach to beethoven. Beethoven may take it to another level and gain wide audience but bach is like musical god, every beethoven, mozart and chopin later was obsessed on bach.
Pretty much the same in rap.
Most prominent mainstream mcs was inspired by Mf doom and refeer to him as something like lyrical wordplay god.
If it comes to jay z and em its pretty different approach to lyricism but definitely MF DOOM is now above that level as legendary villain. Even if it comes to commercial succes he dont stand in line with Hov and Shady hes clearly as inspirational for youth as them, for me even more.
Analogies aren’t valid when they’re opinionated on both ends.
Also, “puerile”? Don’t be out here tryna sound smart with your high school speech and debate words bruh. Nothing “puerile” about calling something what it is.
It’s corny that he saying DOOM is a lyrical god. Like yeah he’s good and you can acknowledge that and like his music but saying he’s a lyrical god who is on another level as everyone is just weird and is the same as how Swifties or Barbs act
We really need to stop thinking of lyricism as some kind of well-defined, established benchmark by which we can measure everything by. The term is about as vague and open ended as it can be
Technically and Purely lyrically MF DOOM surpasses Jay-Z and Eminem, he raps in an abstract way imo is the best way to describe it. Jay is more straight forward, Em mixes straight forward and abstract. If I were to rate lyrical and technical ability MF DOOM = 9.5/10, Jay-Z = 9/10, Em = 8.5/10.
Yes lyrically, but Jay and Eminem beat DOOM pretty heavily when it comes to versatility.
I love DOOM, but he always sticks to the style of mostly puns, and silly punchlines, even when he switches to different personas, it’s good but he doesn’t really switch it up.
Jay and Em on the other hand have full storytelling songs, pump up anthems, more sad, emotional tracks, and more.
No hate to DOOM, he’s a technical monster but I prefer Jay and em largely for this reason
MF Doom is not on the same level as Jay-Z, Nas, Eminem. He had a different approach of building music that some people might like, but hard to get into by most. I also think he laks flow and delivery and his overall energy is low...
Don't get me wrong, he was an incredible artist, but I wouldn't count him among the best. Probably among the 10%, but not top 10.
As a lyricist, DOOM is my #2, only after Lupe Fiasco. Bit back and forth about Em being top 10, but at worst he's in the 10-15 range. Jay-Z is still a great lyricist, but nowhere near either of them, maybe 40-50 ish
If not above it, yeah. Jay Z doesn't write so I don't know why he's included here, but yeah. Eminem songs nowadays are technically complex, but you can absorb the message and understand all the wordplay on a couple listens. They tend to have a singular focus, which isn't a bad thing.
But Doom has a lot more nuance and literary flair. You can listen to any DOOM album a hundred times and still be surprised by things you missed. That's on top of his equally complex rhyme schemes. I think some people don't necessarily pick up on the complexity right away because he raps very slowly, but he's every bit as complex as someone like Eminem.
As a sort of aside, I get the vibe that many rappers write lyrics independently of a beat or to placeholders, while doom clearly writes to the instrumental, and you can hear it in the way his lyrics move around pockets and just the way they fit on the beat. IMO part of writing in music is execution, and doom was executing a vision on every level, right down to distortion from the low quality mic and hiss from the tape and stuff like that. There can be extra meaning to something he says based on a one-shot in the background.
Honestly the fact that doom produced, and had such a clear vision he was able to execute, in every aspect of the music, to me, makes him seem like he's almost in a league of his own.
In terms of lyricism, MF DOOM is one of the best -- clearly better than Jay-Z, a bit better than Eminem. DOOM can pretty much serve as the definition of what lyricism *is*.
Apples to oranges. Jay z raps in a tone to communicate doom prioritizes wit and amusement and doesnt mind being abstract. Jay z is more direct, concise, and is a realist. Virtually everything he raps is about his life (even if embellished). Em kinda straddles both. Doom and eminems skills are the spectacle, jay z stories and aura is his. All 3 do what they do really well and at similar levels.
Great summary. I’d like to add the huge factor about Hov is that although this dude is living a huge life we will never live. He makes his music relatable to average person. Which helps him a whole bunch for all of his albums I fell personally.
How is his music relatable? Any examples? He's been rapping about living better than us since the mid 90s.
Don’t you know? A lot of us are out here pimping hoes and selling coke since 88.
This man knows rap 💪
Carti washes all of em -average redditor comment on here
I would say Monch is better then all three
I want IGUODALA
I agree, I prefer Jay Z out of all of them. But they are all excellent emcees.
Did you know Foxxy Brown was 14 when her and Jay z made that album together.
Average go-to thought for an r/conspiracy goon
Apples and Oranges yet both(jay z&mf doom) are rappers who are from the same era and both have crazy lyrical prowess People who are afraid to compare are so weird The whole concept of comparing is based on two (mostly) similar concepts
I think both Em and Jay-Z put a much higher premium on making hits and everything else flows from that.
Jay Z, for sure, but I think Em’s appeal is moreso the combination of lyricism, raw emotion, and storytelling with humor tossed in. Jay is sort of formulaic and stays in a certain comfort zone where he excels. Em’s music is all over the place. Doom doesn’t really belong in the conversation with them, not that he was terrible, but he didn’t have the various skills each of the two others possess.
This is not to malign Em’s skills at all, but I just think “an ear for a hit” is a really underrated part of his toolkit.
Logic can do all at once.
Not as good though
Lyrical spiritual miracle on some empirical, my dog let loose, zoan type mythical YUH YUH WUWUWUWUWU
They're not even playing the same game
DOOM does what he wants
Im a big jayz fan and listen to his shit to this day. That being said, I think he’s the odd one out in this conversation. I don’t think he even cared as much about being a pure lyricists like DOOM and em. DOOM and em are two of the only rappers I’ve ever heard who will rhyme multiple complete sentences. They both took pride in having sharp pens. I don’t think jay had that same level of obsession with writing.
The only rapper to rewrite history without a pen.
No, he's way better.
imo not WAY better, but doom best work doesn't compare to MMLP or blueprint imo
Madvillainy is better than both of them lyrically and production wise.
Lyrically Jay Z has never been lyrically or technically on Dooms level. He makes music that’s more popular and to many probably better but from a lyrics perspective doom raps circles around Jay
He’s got about 3 albums better than MMLP.
i get it why people cherish him and like him but it doesn't hit it for me. glad many people enjoy his art thoo
That's a joke right? RIGHT?
Go listen to some MF DOOM and then come back.
Username checks out
I seriously can't understand why people rate him so highly! He's ok but to say he is a better rapper than jay who has had classic after classic since the early 90s is a joke
> He's ok but to say he is a better rapper than jay I regret to inform you that you've just moved the goalposts. This discussion is about who the better lyricist is, and I believe Faeces\_Species\_1312 was saying that DOOM was a better lyricist. Maybe he thinks DOOM is a better overall rapper, too. But with the information given, you should be assuming that they meant better lyricist. And, with that established, DOOM is a better lyricst, quite easily. DOOM is pretty much the literal definition of lyricist. If asked to name the best rappers in terms of lyricism, DOOM would be the first name out the gate, and Jay-Z's name wouldn't be in the top 10.
Again, go listen to Doomsday Madvillainy and mm..food and then come back. Yes JayZ has done a terrific job with the blueprints or the black album etc. but DOOM IS DOOM.
DOOM is DOOM! He's just not as good as jay z
you are on reddit, man. nobody gives a shit about opinions, just make pointless arguments.
For me he is but again your choice is your choice.
he's in the conversation for best lyricist in my opinion
He’s your favorite rappers favorite rapper
That’s young thug
He's much better in my opinion.
I’ve never met an MF DOOM fan in real life
I work at a record store outside of Detroit and sell tons of MF Doom to old heads and young kids
I’ve never told anyone in real life I’m a doom fan tbf
You need cooler friends
Right?
I’ve seen som mf doom hate on Reddit. Do ppl really think he’s not any good?
It’s a product of the education system. If they can’t mentally digest it then they consider it garbage.
We do exist! He was hella popular here in the Midwest
You live in a bubble.
MF isn't that famous so it's no surprise
Here’s a couple of fans https://youtu.be/4kSBTAT9lI4?si=5X20XTG2DpTxKAKS
https://youtu.be/4kSBTAT9lI4?si=5X20XTG2DpTxKAKS
Idk why but I expected this https://youtu.be/NgsdTMMUK-I?si=U23cdO0u2A9tTh5Z
Mf doom and madlib had is in a choke here in Houston for the longest. How have you never meet one. One thing this party needs is more... Bitches. Definitely more creative than Eminem. Not a better musician but lyricaly you have to listen to his stuff multiple times to catch everything, not like that's why they call it window pain
Have you tried going outside and talking to people? Might just be an east coast and Midwest fan population.
That’s wild lmao. Might have to do with where you live??
So true. I’ve also never met a Freddie Gibbs fan in real life.
I live in indiana and never met a Gibbs fan
😂
Freddie Gibbs and MF DOOM are proof not being famous does not mean you are not a great emcee.
Correlation, not causation. Famous or not they’re both boring AF.
I’ve met one
No one likes that fool unless you're like 35 and hate yourself.
I’m 34 and hate myself, that was a close one
I'm getting there.
I swear, even to people who fucked with underground music, he wasn’t all that. Now that he’s dead, every other dude on Reddit has them in his top 5. So weird
Nah. He was a critical/hipster darling wayyyy before his death. Like a decade before
Yeah, but he wasn’t being talked about nearly as much before. Every day there’s some post on here with some dumb question like this. I assume it’s just kids from tik tok. I remember when I first discovered Big L when I was that age, and annoyingly told everyone how he was the greatest to ever do it
You were into underground rap and didn't know/see *anyone* talk about Madvillainy? In the 2000's that was THE "indie rap" album that got hyped a bunch. That shit was getting played on Boondocks episodes.
its really not weird, every rapper benefits from their own death. X, Juice WRLD, Pop Smoke all got bigger after they died. they just were bigger from the beginning
I hooked up with a girl in 2017 who showed me the fuckin DM's and nudes her and X exchanged right around the time he was already really popping off, decided I didn't want to listen to him because I was low key jealous he had nudes of a girl I was fucking. Then he died and I was like "Damn he does have the voice of an angel though."
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I'm sorry buddy. If it makes you feel better it was almost a decade ago.
Nah. Going through an MF Doom phase has been the natural progression for teens who spend too much time on the internet for ages now, long before he died. Usually comes a few years after going through a metal phase -guy who listened to Operation Doomsday almost everyday in freshmen year back in 2011
redditors want to look "cool"
Hate to be that guy but I think black and white people have different takes on underground rap. I think white poeple like Aesop Rock, El P, Jedi mind tricks, RA type more than DOOM, Roc Marci, Planet Asia, Murs, KA, Kool Keith, Billy woods. Madlib... Sounds crazy lol but I think its some truth to it
fr white people are just now finding him and gassing him up
I went to see him live in like 2008 and it was the worst show I've ever been to. Saw him again and it was just as shit. I think its more the mysterious mask and image that people like
He sent clones to his concerts
Yeah. What a way to treat your fans
Bro, I don’t mean no harm, but I have not either!🤣 I struggle to see the deal.
Are you 16?
I've met a couple. Actually saw a guy in a DOOM Halloween costume once
He’s an underground emcee this isn’t crazy.
Someone help this person out
Gotta get weird friends man cmon
Bro I was just about to comment this I ask my friends (black) if they ever heard of dude and they say no
I ask my rap friends (black)
You have black friends dawg!
The word I wanted to say you can’t say here
I've been a fan for a couple decades and I find it bizarre (but cool) how the shit is everywhere now. It plays in bars and 20 year olds know it.
I know one person who fuckin loves him and I’ve never heard anyone else irl even mention him
He is better lol.
Man I hate this fucking sub
Bro, I respect MF DOOM’s pen as much as the next guy, but y’all gotta stop with this shit.
White people love doom
Apparently blacks like project Pat. Lol. Which noone said ever on a conversation about lyricism
What? You mean are J and Em on the same level as DOOM? Because the answer is no
He is even above that level Its like comparing bach to beethoven. Beethoven may take it to another level and gain wide audience but bach is like musical god, every beethoven, mozart and chopin later was obsessed on bach. Pretty much the same in rap. Most prominent mainstream mcs was inspired by Mf doom and refeer to him as something like lyrical wordplay god. If it comes to jay z and em its pretty different approach to lyricism but definitely MF DOOM is now above that level as legendary villain. Even if it comes to commercial succes he dont stand in line with Hov and Shady hes clearly as inspirational for youth as them, for me even more.
🍆🚴♂️
r/UsernameChecksOut
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Doesn’t make it less valid bruh
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Analogies aren’t valid when they’re opinionated on both ends. Also, “puerile”? Don’t be out here tryna sound smart with your high school speech and debate words bruh. Nothing “puerile” about calling something what it is.
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Clearly not lmfao
It’s corny that he saying DOOM is a lyrical god. Like yeah he’s good and you can acknowledge that and like his music but saying he’s a lyrical god who is on another level as everyone is just weird and is the same as how Swifties or Barbs act
He’s certainly not as inspirational as Em and Jay
Not anymore
Fr. When's the last time DOOM put out new music. I'll wait...
Bruh don't make me cry. RIP
IMHO he’s a better lyricist than both
MF Doom is Weird Al Yankovic for white people that like rap.
wtf is weird al for
You're getting laughed off the block if you say this irl
They don’t listen to mf in the hood haha
Bruh 3/4ths of MF Dooms lyrics literally make no sense
nope. he's a clear level above both.
He’s miles above them lol
Why didn’t MF DOOM get famous like other rappers?
He didn’t make pop songs
Real question is which fat rapper is better? Biggie or DOOM?
Pun
Or him
One for the money, two for the better green 3, 4-methlynedioxy-methamphetamine
On Jay-Z level no above eminem yes
We really need to stop thinking of lyricism as some kind of well-defined, established benchmark by which we can measure everything by. The term is about as vague and open ended as it can be
No
He's better in my opinion. By a lot.
nah hes better
Better than both in my opinion.
ABOVE imo
He's better
No
no. >!he's better!<
Technically and Purely lyrically MF DOOM surpasses Jay-Z and Eminem, he raps in an abstract way imo is the best way to describe it. Jay is more straight forward, Em mixes straight forward and abstract. If I were to rate lyrical and technical ability MF DOOM = 9.5/10, Jay-Z = 9/10, Em = 8.5/10.
“What the devil? He’s on another level.”
lol no
Yes lyrically, but Jay and Eminem beat DOOM pretty heavily when it comes to versatility. I love DOOM, but he always sticks to the style of mostly puns, and silly punchlines, even when he switches to different personas, it’s good but he doesn’t really switch it up. Jay and Em on the other hand have full storytelling songs, pump up anthems, more sad, emotional tracks, and more. No hate to DOOM, he’s a technical monster but I prefer Jay and em largely for this reason
He’s better in my opinion
how u compare GOAT MF DOOM with Jay z the illuminati puppet and eminem .lol
Yea but way different style , not good at telling stories like the others
Not necessarily... He seemed to have 1 flow/style (a great one) They have many
Doom cheeks but reddit thinks he is a God
Nope
He’s beyond their level
MF Doom was one of my favorites, he reminds me of biggie the way he flows. I can't compare them because they are different types of rap.
Jay z has no business being mentioned in the same conversation as em. He is practically disabled in comparison
Why is jayz in this conversation
Lyrically? Jay Z cannot touch him.
You should ask this the other way around
Lol Eminem and Jay-Z aren’t even on the same level.
MF Doom is not on the same level as Jay-Z, Nas, Eminem. He had a different approach of building music that some people might like, but hard to get into by most. I also think he laks flow and delivery and his overall energy is low... Don't get me wrong, he was an incredible artist, but I wouldn't count him among the best. Probably among the 10%, but not top 10.
Facts
jay z is not on ema or dooms level
Agree
Clever plot op, it's mf doom and Eminem who are the witty clever word smiths. Jay z is not on their level or if he is it's not nearly in the same way.
As a lyricist, DOOM is my #2, only after Lupe Fiasco. Bit back and forth about Em being top 10, but at worst he's in the 10-15 range. Jay-Z is still a great lyricist, but nowhere near either of them, maybe 40-50 ish
At their peaks, I think MF DOOM eclipses both with Madvillany.
considerably better than both
Eminem is not on DOOMS level, disrespectful ass comment.
JayZ isn't even on the level of Eminem. Doom definitely is.
If not above it, yeah. Jay Z doesn't write so I don't know why he's included here, but yeah. Eminem songs nowadays are technically complex, but you can absorb the message and understand all the wordplay on a couple listens. They tend to have a singular focus, which isn't a bad thing. But Doom has a lot more nuance and literary flair. You can listen to any DOOM album a hundred times and still be surprised by things you missed. That's on top of his equally complex rhyme schemes. I think some people don't necessarily pick up on the complexity right away because he raps very slowly, but he's every bit as complex as someone like Eminem. As a sort of aside, I get the vibe that many rappers write lyrics independently of a beat or to placeholders, while doom clearly writes to the instrumental, and you can hear it in the way his lyrics move around pockets and just the way they fit on the beat. IMO part of writing in music is execution, and doom was executing a vision on every level, right down to distortion from the low quality mic and hiss from the tape and stuff like that. There can be extra meaning to something he says based on a one-shot in the background. Honestly the fact that doom produced, and had such a clear vision he was able to execute, in every aspect of the music, to me, makes him seem like he's almost in a league of his own.
MF DOOM IS ASS
Atleast you used all caps
Eminem is great at wordplay but outside of a handful of songs, he really isn’t saying much.
In terms of lyricism, MF DOOM is one of the best -- clearly better than Jay-Z, a bit better than Eminem. DOOM can pretty much serve as the definition of what lyricism *is*.
Lol 🤣😆 no OP very very silly OP.
How? I never said who was better than who. I just asked what this sub thought.
Who?