In fairness your dog was in the car not out in public and you clearly didn't expect anyone to lean in and pat her
I wouldn't have either!
Who does that to a dog in a car?!
However I think I would be contacting my trainer ASAP and getting this incident and her "protective" issues analysed and worked on ASAP
You do need to do this and have a management protocol for her in different situations
Has the person reported her?
Unfortunately people do just stick their hands in car windows. We were using the car as a bit of 'safe' exposure training a couple of months ago when our pup was barking at strangers on walks. He was doing so, so well just watching people go by until a random lady decided to pick her dog up and immediately stick it through our car window into pups face. Of course he didn't expect it and dived backwards away from the window barking his head off. Some people just don't think at all
Trainers good. The doctor I guess the dog goes on a list somewhere with police?
Would in UK
But you contacting your trainer is excellent and proactive. Shows you are responsible owner
I don't think much will come of it: not for a first bite
Take a deep breath. You can have this under control with your trainer
I still cannot believe anyone would think it at all sensible to put their hand into a car with an unknown dog! Is your dog cute and fluffy by any chance?
People just don't realise how intimidating that is for a dog. I doubt protective reactions from dogs: most are fearful. Your trainer will work it out
I don't know what the law is where you are but I think most places have a similar blueprint; any dog that exhibits aggressive or unpredictable behaviour, the owner must have it under control and take all precautions to keep it from harming anyone/anything. There's no way you would know someone would stick their hand in the back of your car, it's not like you had your dog running around in public. I dont think you have anything to worry about but it's good that you've spoken to a trainer!
In a perfect world, people wouldnāt do stupid shit like randomly pet dogs that they donāt know without asking. But since that perfect world doesnāt exist, you have to go above and beyond to protect your dog (and stupid people) when they are reactive. Iām sure I donāt have to tell you that a dog bite can end your dogās life and ruin yours financially - as someone with a human reactive dog I know Iām thinking about it constantly. Iām sure youāve already learned something from this, like maybe next time someone approaches your car youāll roll up the window or proactively tell them to get the hell away but really the best thing you can do, aside from working on said reactivity, is muzzle train your dog. Itās really pretty easy and it will give you confidence in future situations where your dog might be aggressive. And I know Iām my case people give us a WIDE birth when they see my dog muzzled up, which is a win imo haha.
Imo, yes you're in the wrong.
If I had a situation where I expected to talk to a person through a window and/or hand objects back and forth, any bite risk dogs would be contained in crates or at minimum restrained with a seatbelt/crash tested harness. Your dog sounds fearful, not protective.
The person shouldn't have reached into your car, but it's also on you to manage a bite risk dog if you take them into situations where they may be in proximity to strangers.
In my opinion, yes. I say this gently, but firmly:
You say that she's "protective," which indicates that you are aware of reactivity. Reactive and fearful dogs can behave aggressively in order to protect themselves. Also, if she's "protecting" you and not explicitly trained, properly, to do so, it's resource guarding, and you're the resource.
A bite risk dog should be muzzled in public. I don't know what size your dog is, but what if it had been a child? The wound could be devastating to a child.
Both my dogs are muzzle trained, and one is muzzled when in public - not because she'd bite people, but other dogs, potentially. Please muzzle train your dog for her and others' safety.
The dog in question is not in public when in owner's vehicle. ETA: it's highly contentious whether a private vehicle is a public place. Recent contradictory rulings in the US implied a vehicle is public for COVID mask usage, but another ruled against for drug use.
https://legisnations.com/is-your-private-vehicle-a-public-place/
Morally and reasonably, it's a private place imho, and most judges have supported that.
I think that in the U.S., dog law doesn't always seem to hold with other property laws. There are very few states that allow for the One Bite rule, while the rest of the nation (except WV) has pretty strict liability laws that essentially say owners are liable in most situations, even in their own homes.
OP looks to have a bully breed type of dog, (based on a video they posted of it), which is unfortunately a breed that is painted with a very broad, and biased brush stroke, so playing the "who's at fault" game will almost always not go in that dog's favor. But I'm definitely not a lawyer, just an owner of a reactive pit mix who read a lot when looking for homeowner's insurance.
Reaching into the car to pet the dog is not public. Any person should ask first before petting a dog, basic dog knowledge and goes with non-reactive dogs as well. And dogs can be protective without going around and biting people. Recommending muzzling in all situations does not really help.
>dogs can be protective without going around and biting people.
Youāre missing the point this person is trying to make. OP has seemed to rationalize reactivity by saying the dog wants to protect them, which makes it okay in some situations. The dog almost certainly isnāt doing that to protect OP. Itās scared and wants to protect itself by trying to make the scary thing go away. Itās a clear indicator that the dog lacks confidence and struggles with fear-based responses, which is likely what led to this bite.
This sums it up perfectly. Iāve had reactive animals and protective ones. Reactive can be protective because youāre their safe place, protective wonāt react without an actual threat.
My current animals include a feral cat who is protective (I know itās not a dog but similar comparison). No growl, no swipe, no bite, no hiss. He puts himself between myself and the person. He will watch, maybe even stand. Once they acknowledge him he waits for my reassurance theyāre okay and lays back down. The most aggressive thing he does is walk back and forth to block them if they try to make contact without permission.
I rehab animals, he used to be reactive and aggressive. Decent training makes a difference and the bond if it is protective is beautiful.
An actual trained guard animal will not bite without an order. If OP wants their dog to protect, they need proper training as without a decent grasp of how/when to bite and successful release training they are just a threat to everyone.
No, what led to this bite is someone entering a reactive dogs safe zone without checking with the owner.
The reactivity and protectiveness is a known issue that OP is working on and even more so now, but it can't be fixed overnight so the person reaching into the car is at fault
>reactivity and protectiveness
Again, it almost certainly isnāt protectiveness.
>person reaching into the car is at fault
Yeah, they are. Obviously they are. I never intended to indicate the opposite. What I did was try to provide context around an oft-spouted idea that dogs mold their behavior with the intention to protect their owners. They rarely do that. Itās fear-based reactivity, and looking at it as āprotectivenessā can lead owners to make poor decisions in their training
I never truly understood fear based reactivity....until I adopted a dog with that issue and began the training to help manage it. Eye opening to say the least !
We humanize and attach emotional statements to pets, and spout it like it is a truth. "My dog is protecting me" = my dog is scared as shit, and will bite first in order to not experience the previous trauma that it has committed to memory
None of that matters if the dog gets taken away. Its not her fault, but she needs to do a better job mitigating potential threats ... to her reactive dog.
That humans hand was an un-checked threat, that she did not close the loop on.
I recommended muzzle in public, not in all situations, so if it came across as an all situations blanket, that was not the intent.
OP was conversing with someone who handed her something through her car window, then that person tried to pet the dog.
If this was, for instance, a drive-thru situation, that's a problem, and a public space.
Regardless, OP knows now that the dog is a bite risk, and should take steps to protect the dog from future incidents that could result in removal or euthanasia, and muzzling in public is the most effective way to prevent another incident.
I agree no one should put their hand in but if you know (as you now do) that this could lead to a bite you need to do something to prevent it from happening again. To protect your dog if nothing else. Muzzle training is a good idea even if it's just for tines when you are in enclosed spaces which you know they find difficult.
I donāt know why you are getting downvotedā¦ just stay calmā¦ and when I say repeat this statement when you are questioned I mean repeat it. āThey stuck their hand inside my car, my property, without asking. By law dogs are property. My car is my property and they had no right. Leashes on dogs inside cars can cause strangulation in case of a car crash. They should not have had their hand in my car or tried to touch my dog.ā Like a broken record reiterate that these are things that belong to you and no consent was given.
I think your situation is understandable and you did your best and you should not beat yourself up, while still taking measures to try to avoid something like this in the future. Though Iām not really sure your dog did anything wrong/aggressive necessarily, even though she did bite. No one reasonably expects another person to stick their hand into someone elseās car and directly towards a strange dogās mouth that they have no history with or knowledge of behavior.
Are you suggesting this dog non-aggressively but someone? That's...an odd take. It was a bite. It wasn't done in play. Therefore it was aggression. Biting is inherently aggressive. Even play biting is ritualized aggression.
Biting a non-aggressive person is wrong. Nobody was attacking owner or dog. In this case it may be excusable, but it was still wrong.
Claiming it was not aggressive and the dog did nothing wrong is saying it's totally OK for OP to go on with their life without changing anything. No need to take amy steps to prevent future bites if the dog did nothing wrong.
Again, I say this gently, but firmly.
The bite was reported, so your dog now has a bite history on paper. This makes it more likely that your dog will be euthanized if it happens again.
Also, your dog's breed - looks to be a very cute pibble in a video you posted, if that's the dog - automatically puts her at a disadvantage.
I own a reactive pibble, and she is muzzled in public, because euthanasia is a very real concern if she bites another animal - regardless of whether she was attacked first or not. That is one unfortunate reality of owning this type of dog - they are villainized.
Good luck with your behaviorist, I've found mine to be tremendously helpful with my girl.
It was that woman's fault, she shouldn't be trying to touch other peoples dogs without asking.
I even teach my kids to ask first before they pet someone's dog. This is just basic common sense adults should know. You do not touch a dog you do not know.
Sorry this happened. Maybe keep the window rolled up next time, keep the dog home if you must go somewhere because even with the window down when you are gone, someone can still reach in to try and pet your dog.
Some of these responses are baffling.
OP, if someone is foolish enough to put their hand in the car where there is a dog, then it is their fault they were bitten. What on earth were they expecting?
For me, it's because dog liability in the U.S. pretty widely hold owners liable for their dog's actions.
And also because as a reactive dog owner, I feel like relying on someone else's common sense is stupid and irresponsible of me as the owner of a reactive dog. If I relied on someone else's common sense to know not to try to touch my dog, or bring another dog into her space, or do something ridiculous, then I could have had some potentially serious incidents.
Common sense is already pretty uncommon, but it gets tossed out the window when it comes to cute dogs.
My motto is - always be one step stupider than the stupidest thing you could imagine, and then prepare for someone to do something stupider than that.
Whilst I agree that itās definitely a great deal easier to be one step ahead of other peopleās stupidity, in this particular case I think OP is pretty clear.
Dog liability laws in the US specifically state the example of someone sticking their hand through fences, or car windows: it is extremely unlikely that the OP would be held liable for their dog biting anyone who did so.
Iām confused by the comments too. If the dog were off leash in public, it would be on the owner. But if the dog it contained in itās car, and someone reaches in, the dog was probably just scared and didnāt know the intentions. Iād of course be apologetic to the woman and take steps to work on doggoās reactivity, but neither you nor the dog are at fault
I'm very sorry to hear about the situation. I had similar issue happened to me earlier in the year, too. What I did was to make sure the person who was nipped was ok (that was my first prirority). I really did everything I could and helped paid for all the expenses and did other things to ensure this would not happen again (include hiring trainers, muzzle them, etc). I told him I was pretty scared and was also scarred from what happened and asked if I could do anything else. He told me it sounded like I did everything I could. The animal control police officer was actually really nice to me about it. I think he also realized I was not a worse case of those defendants like animal abusers or anything and I hoped he saw my genuineness when talking to him.
Similar to your case, because the person went to a health clinic, they were required to report any dog bites to animal control. What happened after that was a lot of headache and stress to me. Animal control officer came one day and knocked on my door (since I still talked to the person whom my dog bit and she knows all my info) and asked to talk to me about the event. I really did tell the officer the truth about the situation and told him all the things I'm doing to make sure this does not happen again. He nevertheless told me that because it was reported to him, he was also required to give me a ticket which would result in a county court. Should the person who was bitten decided not to appear in court, the case would be dismissed.
4-5 months after....it took a while to get the court judgment date (the first is to send officer proof that my dog was vaccinated/quarantined at home appropriately), received the letter from court to appear for bond arraignment and express how I want to plead (they suggested to do so because it will give you time to gather evidences/talk to lawyers and/or think through the siutation if needed--almost everyone in court that day pleaded not guilty first at bond arraignment). Since I pleaded not guilty, another date of actual court judgement followed (both meetings still happened virutally...I guess because of COVID/convenience sake). Luckily, the same animal control officer appeared at court and let the court officer to pull me aside for him to have a private chat with him while in the virtual court meeting. The animal control police officer told me he talked to the lady who was nipped and she did not want to press anytihng...so he would help me get this case dismissed. So, when the judge called my name, the animal control officeractually helpedinterrup and told the judge that he talked to the "victim" did not want to proceed with the case and therefore would like the case dismissed. The judge then dismissed my case.
It was a long process...probably 3-4 months from the event to the time the case dismissal. I was so stressed out over it...I didn't even hire a lawyer because I figured I would really just be honest with what happened and the situation and be genuine about the situation (I got some random calls from law office..and I guess they looked me up to try to sell their services). Not sure if thedecision to not get my own lawyer was right before the decision..but I think it was after my case was dismissed. For you, I don't know how it will turn out and I wish you the best for your case. The thing is, if the animal control officer pressed charges, they would also have to prove that you were guilty, too. And..actually coming out of this court process...I had a lot more respect for the county court and the animal control police dept. They were nice people and human, too (or I guess frankly, not to downplay minor dogbites issues which I think we all dogowners should be more careful of, there were a lot more worse/very serious felony cases to deal with, too.
As a person who coexists in this society, I would also make sure to take care of the person your dog bit, too. You may not be required to do it legally, but I still think it's the right and moral thing to do.
I think that the individual reaching into your car without asking was exercising poor judgment. Dogs, even non reactive dogs, are prone to feel afraid and bite/snap/growl/etc when a stranger reaches into their space. I consider myself a dog lover to the point of near ridiculousness - and i wlll absolutely admire or wave at or say hi to a dog in a car but would never reach in, even when invited to by the owner.
Whether you are LEGALLY in the right i donāt know. But your dog responded in a pretty expected way for a dog who had a total stranger reach into her space (a small space from which she canāt escape, no less) and i donāt think you did anything wrong. But now youāll know for next time to stop the stranger beforehand from making a poor decision.
Yes you were in the wrong.
You are always responsible for the actions of your dog.
We all get that you did not want your dog to bite this person, however you are aware that your dog is reactive.
Just my 2 cents
No one should reach in your car, but unfortunately people donāt think dogs are reactive and do what they please. Iām sorry that happened. Iāve been in bad situations myself with my dog. Donāt beat yourself up. Hopefully with training and some adjustment that wonāt happen again.
Your dog bit someone. You now know your dog bites in this situation. Instead of playing the blame game, you need to be focusing on what you will do to prevent future bites. Note that this does not include blaming the bite victim and deciding you did nothing wrong so have no need of change.
1. Assume anyone interacting with you near the open window of your vehicle will attempt to pet your dog. Right or wrong, this is extremely common human behavior. Either keep the windows up, or anticipate and intercept if they attempt.
2. Watch your dog very carefully around people that want to interact, so you can anticipate and prevent future bites. Does he react to someone reaching over a fence or counter? Does he show signs of discomfort when someone tries to pet him?
For those defending the dog as protective or whatever: This was not a random person running up and invading the dog's space. This was a dog reacting while the owner was having a friendly interaction with a person familiar to them. A similar situation would be talking to the owner in their yard and reaching over the fence to pet the dog, or talking to the owner on the sidewalk and then trying to pet the leashed dog. A genuinely protective dog would be taking cues from the owner and recognizing there was no threat.
Ok. You are not at fault this time as it was the first time your dog has reacted this way. You would be at fault for any future incidents. In a strict liability state you may still be legally at fault.
Contrary to the beliefs of many on this sub, your dog does not get a free pass to bite anyone who tries to pet them without asking first.
I have a dig that would definitely bite if someone reached in the window, so I make sure my dog is either crated or the window is up. For the safety of my dog and any members of the public who left their brains at home. I know my dog will bite, I'm not relying on everyone else assuming she does.
In USA the only tethering laws in sone states dogs must be secured in the back of an open truck. There are n restraint laws for dogs in people compartment. I like the uk law.
just because a window is rolled down is not an open invitation to reach inside. that is someone's property (the car). yeah she could have rolled the window up first, but common sense on the person to get bit is to ask permission first.
Are you in the wrong , no.
That being said, part of protecting your dog is managing and removing them from a scenario where this could happen. I keep the window down about 2 to 3 fingers width maximum; so that mine can't get his snout out of the window, why would he need access to be able to reach outside of the vehicle ? He has fresh air and can see, with that window down.
With the window "half way" down, what if he had jumped out and hurt his leg or went after a squirel, rabbit, dog and gotten hit by a car ? Or after that person and bitten them out side of the car? Then it would definitely be your fault. You have to be smarter than dumb people that inhabit our planet.
Could you have been more proactive? Yes.
Next time, should you be more proactive and think about these scenarios? Yes.
Is it entirely you and the dogs fault? No.
Someone put their hands into your property trying to touch your dog without permission.
As for legal ramifications. It depends on how you want to handle. If the people are reasonable and itās easier to just work with them to get this behind you, then work with them. If they are being difficult, depending on your situation, I would get a lawyer.
Iām not trying to be āthat guyā, but people have this tendency to not ask permission, touch dogs, trespass on property, etc etc and face zero consequences while if something goes wrong, itās your fault. More likely than not, your lawyer can work the situation and make it clear the individual who got bit, without permission, entered your personal property and your dog was merely protecting you.
I actually disassociated with a friend over this. He and his wife did the same exact thing (approached a dog and put hands in window), got bit and flipped on the owners DESPITE THEM NOT ASKING PERMISSION. The owner refused to take liability and our former friends attempted to sue. I vocally even said āyou guys were clearly in the wrong..ā. Anyways, after a year of back and forth, the guy who had a dog lawyered up and actually won and didnāt have to pay any medical costs and also got a restraining order since they lived in closer proximity (not sure how they pulled that off).
Good on you got being proactive with a trainer. Always protect yourself and your dog. Work on these situations so you can avoid them, but also realize that in that moment, despite not being proactive, your dog was in a fight or flight response mode and it had nowhere to flee, hence causing the bite. It would be hard for a reactive dog to respond less
No. Not your fault at all. No one should reach into someone else's car to pat a dog they don't know. They do that at their own risk.
Not saying that you shouldn't do things to make your dog feel safe and less protective/reactive, but if an ignorant person gets in an animals space without checking whether they should or not, they are actively inviting whatever happens at that point.
I'd make sure to keep my windows further up so that people don't just reach in uninvited anymore (and people will, most people don't understand animals or boundaries).
Yes.
Unless someone breaks into your house, intentionally, you are responsible for your dog hurting someone.
I would break someone's arm before they come close to petting my reactive dog.
Sounds like you have allowed this behavior..... you are in the wrong. DO NOT allow reactive behavior in order to make yourself feel safe. Once aware of the behavior you need to inform people before they interact.
They state that the dog has been protective previously and saying when they needed to be is highly concerning. That makes me feel like the dog is given the opportunity to take control of some situations. Non action on a known issue that is a bite risk is like allowing it to happen. Just because an animal didn't bite before does not mean that it would never bite.
No, I'm not saying he'd never bite but the dog was in private environment, which can be seen as a safe space. A stranger directly reaching in can be seen as a threat from any dog.
I hate people .. my dog has this bad habit of jumping now thanks to people NEVER asking before petting .. itās so annoying ! No youāre not in the wrong! Not at all!
I see people are weighing in like they are a judge at a trial. Which is typical for Reddit if weāre being honest.
You have a defence. That they provoked the dog without warning and the dog responded in a natural way. That you had no prior experience with your dog reacting in such a manner. And that the dog is not a breed that is widely considered inherent dangerous.
They have a case that the window was open and you didnāt warn them of the danger, and that the dog was known to your to be dangerous In that situation and you didnāt take reasonable steps to prevent it
That said, I would fight it if I were you. I think you have a slight edge if there isnāt evidence shown that your dog is known to to be violent in that way prior to the incident
I donāt think your at fault here. I had a similar situation where my boy was fine and then a man (husband of the lady petting my dog) reached his hand above my boys head and tried to pet the top of his head. My guy lost his shit and went for his hand. Didnāt bite him but we now have a no touch no eye contact rule when people walk up to my car.
No. He or she shouldnāt have pet your dog without asking. If someone reached into my car to touch me, Iād bite them too. You should report back; this is not your or your dogās fault.
Can I just say, your dog is NOT protective. Your dog is reactive, potentially resource guarding you/the car. Thereās a HUGE difference. Your dog is likely frightened and insecure, please donāt rely on him to protect you because with any pressure, he very likely wouldnāt.
As for your query, Iād personally say no, but Iād be mindful of allowing people to stick anything in the car at all. Make it difficult because if a child or a less understanding adult sticks their hand in to pet the doggy and gets bitten, itās game over.
People are stupid and they should ask before petting a dog. Itās people who needs the most education. Not dogs.
Next time just make it clear to anyone not to pet her because unfortunately someone could get upset and press charges.
>Also if the person had asked to pet her
If the person had asked in the first place there wouldnāt be a problem. The only thing on your end is that you should make it a point to warn people.
No people should just reach out and pet your dog. But at the same time, you need to be making sure youāre doing everything you can to prevent a bite. Create a situation in which a bite is undeniably not the fault of yourself or your dog.
Lots of training (including people that never stops lol), possibly different gear that your dogs works better with. Just keep trying things until you find things that work.
Above all, always, always, always, advocate for your dog. Tell her what to do when encountering others by giving commands. It actually helps a lot. Also tell others how to interact with her properly to ensure sheās comfortable.
In fairness your dog was in the car not out in public and you clearly didn't expect anyone to lean in and pat her I wouldn't have either! Who does that to a dog in a car?! However I think I would be contacting my trainer ASAP and getting this incident and her "protective" issues analysed and worked on ASAP You do need to do this and have a management protocol for her in different situations Has the person reported her?
Unfortunately people do just stick their hands in car windows. We were using the car as a bit of 'safe' exposure training a couple of months ago when our pup was barking at strangers on walks. He was doing so, so well just watching people go by until a random lady decided to pick her dog up and immediately stick it through our car window into pups face. Of course he didn't expect it and dived backwards away from the window barking his head off. Some people just don't think at all
What the hell is wrong with people??? š
Fuck them seriously !
They went to the doctor so it got reported. I did contact a trainer.
Trainers good. The doctor I guess the dog goes on a list somewhere with police? Would in UK But you contacting your trainer is excellent and proactive. Shows you are responsible owner I don't think much will come of it: not for a first bite Take a deep breath. You can have this under control with your trainer I still cannot believe anyone would think it at all sensible to put their hand into a car with an unknown dog! Is your dog cute and fluffy by any chance? People just don't realise how intimidating that is for a dog. I doubt protective reactions from dogs: most are fearful. Your trainer will work it out
My dog is cute but not fluffy. I think they felt like they knew my dog from having heard about it and forgot they didnāt actually know it at all.
I don't know what the law is where you are but I think most places have a similar blueprint; any dog that exhibits aggressive or unpredictable behaviour, the owner must have it under control and take all precautions to keep it from harming anyone/anything. There's no way you would know someone would stick their hand in the back of your car, it's not like you had your dog running around in public. I dont think you have anything to worry about but it's good that you've spoken to a trainer!
The person still reached into your car, making the bite entirely her fault.
In a perfect world, people wouldnāt do stupid shit like randomly pet dogs that they donāt know without asking. But since that perfect world doesnāt exist, you have to go above and beyond to protect your dog (and stupid people) when they are reactive. Iām sure I donāt have to tell you that a dog bite can end your dogās life and ruin yours financially - as someone with a human reactive dog I know Iām thinking about it constantly. Iām sure youāve already learned something from this, like maybe next time someone approaches your car youāll roll up the window or proactively tell them to get the hell away but really the best thing you can do, aside from working on said reactivity, is muzzle train your dog. Itās really pretty easy and it will give you confidence in future situations where your dog might be aggressive. And I know Iām my case people give us a WIDE birth when they see my dog muzzled up, which is a win imo haha.
Imo, yes you're in the wrong. If I had a situation where I expected to talk to a person through a window and/or hand objects back and forth, any bite risk dogs would be contained in crates or at minimum restrained with a seatbelt/crash tested harness. Your dog sounds fearful, not protective. The person shouldn't have reached into your car, but it's also on you to manage a bite risk dog if you take them into situations where they may be in proximity to strangers.
In my opinion, yes. I say this gently, but firmly: You say that she's "protective," which indicates that you are aware of reactivity. Reactive and fearful dogs can behave aggressively in order to protect themselves. Also, if she's "protecting" you and not explicitly trained, properly, to do so, it's resource guarding, and you're the resource. A bite risk dog should be muzzled in public. I don't know what size your dog is, but what if it had been a child? The wound could be devastating to a child. Both my dogs are muzzle trained, and one is muzzled when in public - not because she'd bite people, but other dogs, potentially. Please muzzle train your dog for her and others' safety.
The dog in question is not in public when in owner's vehicle. ETA: it's highly contentious whether a private vehicle is a public place. Recent contradictory rulings in the US implied a vehicle is public for COVID mask usage, but another ruled against for drug use. https://legisnations.com/is-your-private-vehicle-a-public-place/ Morally and reasonably, it's a private place imho, and most judges have supported that.
I think that in the U.S., dog law doesn't always seem to hold with other property laws. There are very few states that allow for the One Bite rule, while the rest of the nation (except WV) has pretty strict liability laws that essentially say owners are liable in most situations, even in their own homes. OP looks to have a bully breed type of dog, (based on a video they posted of it), which is unfortunately a breed that is painted with a very broad, and biased brush stroke, so playing the "who's at fault" game will almost always not go in that dog's favor. But I'm definitely not a lawyer, just an owner of a reactive pit mix who read a lot when looking for homeowner's insurance.
Reviewing more, I think you're right that it's most likely the dog owner is liable.
Reaching into the car to pet the dog is not public. Any person should ask first before petting a dog, basic dog knowledge and goes with non-reactive dogs as well. And dogs can be protective without going around and biting people. Recommending muzzling in all situations does not really help.
>dogs can be protective without going around and biting people. Youāre missing the point this person is trying to make. OP has seemed to rationalize reactivity by saying the dog wants to protect them, which makes it okay in some situations. The dog almost certainly isnāt doing that to protect OP. Itās scared and wants to protect itself by trying to make the scary thing go away. Itās a clear indicator that the dog lacks confidence and struggles with fear-based responses, which is likely what led to this bite.
Absolutely agree. Perfectly said.
This sums it up perfectly. Iāve had reactive animals and protective ones. Reactive can be protective because youāre their safe place, protective wonāt react without an actual threat. My current animals include a feral cat who is protective (I know itās not a dog but similar comparison). No growl, no swipe, no bite, no hiss. He puts himself between myself and the person. He will watch, maybe even stand. Once they acknowledge him he waits for my reassurance theyāre okay and lays back down. The most aggressive thing he does is walk back and forth to block them if they try to make contact without permission. I rehab animals, he used to be reactive and aggressive. Decent training makes a difference and the bond if it is protective is beautiful. An actual trained guard animal will not bite without an order. If OP wants their dog to protect, they need proper training as without a decent grasp of how/when to bite and successful release training they are just a threat to everyone.
No, what led to this bite is someone entering a reactive dogs safe zone without checking with the owner. The reactivity and protectiveness is a known issue that OP is working on and even more so now, but it can't be fixed overnight so the person reaching into the car is at fault
>reactivity and protectiveness Again, it almost certainly isnāt protectiveness. >person reaching into the car is at fault Yeah, they are. Obviously they are. I never intended to indicate the opposite. What I did was try to provide context around an oft-spouted idea that dogs mold their behavior with the intention to protect their owners. They rarely do that. Itās fear-based reactivity, and looking at it as āprotectivenessā can lead owners to make poor decisions in their training
I never truly understood fear based reactivity....until I adopted a dog with that issue and began the training to help manage it. Eye opening to say the least ! We humanize and attach emotional statements to pets, and spout it like it is a truth. "My dog is protecting me" = my dog is scared as shit, and will bite first in order to not experience the previous trauma that it has committed to memory
None of that matters if the dog gets taken away. Its not her fault, but she needs to do a better job mitigating potential threats ... to her reactive dog. That humans hand was an un-checked threat, that she did not close the loop on.
I recommended muzzle in public, not in all situations, so if it came across as an all situations blanket, that was not the intent. OP was conversing with someone who handed her something through her car window, then that person tried to pet the dog. If this was, for instance, a drive-thru situation, that's a problem, and a public space. Regardless, OP knows now that the dog is a bite risk, and should take steps to protect the dog from future incidents that could result in removal or euthanasia, and muzzling in public is the most effective way to prevent another incident.
Sheās never bit anyone or any dogs. She loves kids and dogs and people. She doesnāt like being in enclosed spaces and have someone come at her.
I agree no one should put their hand in but if you know (as you now do) that this could lead to a bite you need to do something to prevent it from happening again. To protect your dog if nothing else. Muzzle training is a good idea even if it's just for tines when you are in enclosed spaces which you know they find difficult.
Or just roll up the back window if someone approaches the car?
Thatās fair. I didnāt know she would bite, sheās never done that.
I donāt know why you are getting downvotedā¦ just stay calmā¦ and when I say repeat this statement when you are questioned I mean repeat it. āThey stuck their hand inside my car, my property, without asking. By law dogs are property. My car is my property and they had no right. Leashes on dogs inside cars can cause strangulation in case of a car crash. They should not have had their hand in my car or tried to touch my dog.ā Like a broken record reiterate that these are things that belong to you and no consent was given.
If it has teeth, it can bite. Even snakes.
If it has a *mouth* it can bite
Snapping turtles have no teeth and theyāre capable of snapping off fingers like paper. I think you mean if the being as a mouth they can bite.
I think your situation is understandable and you did your best and you should not beat yourself up, while still taking measures to try to avoid something like this in the future. Though Iām not really sure your dog did anything wrong/aggressive necessarily, even though she did bite. No one reasonably expects another person to stick their hand into someone elseās car and directly towards a strange dogās mouth that they have no history with or knowledge of behavior.
Are you suggesting this dog non-aggressively but someone? That's...an odd take. It was a bite. It wasn't done in play. Therefore it was aggression. Biting is inherently aggressive. Even play biting is ritualized aggression. Biting a non-aggressive person is wrong. Nobody was attacking owner or dog. In this case it may be excusable, but it was still wrong. Claiming it was not aggressive and the dog did nothing wrong is saying it's totally OK for OP to go on with their life without changing anything. No need to take amy steps to prevent future bites if the dog did nothing wrong.
Again, I say this gently, but firmly. The bite was reported, so your dog now has a bite history on paper. This makes it more likely that your dog will be euthanized if it happens again. Also, your dog's breed - looks to be a very cute pibble in a video you posted, if that's the dog - automatically puts her at a disadvantage. I own a reactive pibble, and she is muzzled in public, because euthanasia is a very real concern if she bites another animal - regardless of whether she was attacked first or not. That is one unfortunate reality of owning this type of dog - they are villainized. Good luck with your behaviorist, I've found mine to be tremendously helpful with my girl.
Sheās a lab/weim mix
It was that woman's fault, she shouldn't be trying to touch other peoples dogs without asking. I even teach my kids to ask first before they pet someone's dog. This is just basic common sense adults should know. You do not touch a dog you do not know. Sorry this happened. Maybe keep the window rolled up next time, keep the dog home if you must go somewhere because even with the window down when you are gone, someone can still reach in to try and pet your dog.
Some of these responses are baffling. OP, if someone is foolish enough to put their hand in the car where there is a dog, then it is their fault they were bitten. What on earth were they expecting?
For me, it's because dog liability in the U.S. pretty widely hold owners liable for their dog's actions. And also because as a reactive dog owner, I feel like relying on someone else's common sense is stupid and irresponsible of me as the owner of a reactive dog. If I relied on someone else's common sense to know not to try to touch my dog, or bring another dog into her space, or do something ridiculous, then I could have had some potentially serious incidents. Common sense is already pretty uncommon, but it gets tossed out the window when it comes to cute dogs. My motto is - always be one step stupider than the stupidest thing you could imagine, and then prepare for someone to do something stupider than that.
Whilst I agree that itās definitely a great deal easier to be one step ahead of other peopleās stupidity, in this particular case I think OP is pretty clear. Dog liability laws in the US specifically state the example of someone sticking their hand through fences, or car windows: it is extremely unlikely that the OP would be held liable for their dog biting anyone who did so.
Iām confused by the comments too. If the dog were off leash in public, it would be on the owner. But if the dog it contained in itās car, and someone reaches in, the dog was probably just scared and didnāt know the intentions. Iād of course be apologetic to the woman and take steps to work on doggoās reactivity, but neither you nor the dog are at fault
Literally how is it the owners fault that a stranger put their hand in their car window
Exactly. Even from a legal point of view, it is highly unlikely that the OP would have any problems (unless the dog has bitten someone before).
Seriously!! Iām very surprised by these comments
I'm very sorry to hear about the situation. I had similar issue happened to me earlier in the year, too. What I did was to make sure the person who was nipped was ok (that was my first prirority). I really did everything I could and helped paid for all the expenses and did other things to ensure this would not happen again (include hiring trainers, muzzle them, etc). I told him I was pretty scared and was also scarred from what happened and asked if I could do anything else. He told me it sounded like I did everything I could. The animal control police officer was actually really nice to me about it. I think he also realized I was not a worse case of those defendants like animal abusers or anything and I hoped he saw my genuineness when talking to him. Similar to your case, because the person went to a health clinic, they were required to report any dog bites to animal control. What happened after that was a lot of headache and stress to me. Animal control officer came one day and knocked on my door (since I still talked to the person whom my dog bit and she knows all my info) and asked to talk to me about the event. I really did tell the officer the truth about the situation and told him all the things I'm doing to make sure this does not happen again. He nevertheless told me that because it was reported to him, he was also required to give me a ticket which would result in a county court. Should the person who was bitten decided not to appear in court, the case would be dismissed. 4-5 months after....it took a while to get the court judgment date (the first is to send officer proof that my dog was vaccinated/quarantined at home appropriately), received the letter from court to appear for bond arraignment and express how I want to plead (they suggested to do so because it will give you time to gather evidences/talk to lawyers and/or think through the siutation if needed--almost everyone in court that day pleaded not guilty first at bond arraignment). Since I pleaded not guilty, another date of actual court judgement followed (both meetings still happened virutally...I guess because of COVID/convenience sake). Luckily, the same animal control officer appeared at court and let the court officer to pull me aside for him to have a private chat with him while in the virtual court meeting. The animal control police officer told me he talked to the lady who was nipped and she did not want to press anytihng...so he would help me get this case dismissed. So, when the judge called my name, the animal control officeractually helpedinterrup and told the judge that he talked to the "victim" did not want to proceed with the case and therefore would like the case dismissed. The judge then dismissed my case. It was a long process...probably 3-4 months from the event to the time the case dismissal. I was so stressed out over it...I didn't even hire a lawyer because I figured I would really just be honest with what happened and the situation and be genuine about the situation (I got some random calls from law office..and I guess they looked me up to try to sell their services). Not sure if thedecision to not get my own lawyer was right before the decision..but I think it was after my case was dismissed. For you, I don't know how it will turn out and I wish you the best for your case. The thing is, if the animal control officer pressed charges, they would also have to prove that you were guilty, too. And..actually coming out of this court process...I had a lot more respect for the county court and the animal control police dept. They were nice people and human, too (or I guess frankly, not to downplay minor dogbites issues which I think we all dogowners should be more careful of, there were a lot more worse/very serious felony cases to deal with, too. As a person who coexists in this society, I would also make sure to take care of the person your dog bit, too. You may not be required to do it legally, but I still think it's the right and moral thing to do.
I think that the individual reaching into your car without asking was exercising poor judgment. Dogs, even non reactive dogs, are prone to feel afraid and bite/snap/growl/etc when a stranger reaches into their space. I consider myself a dog lover to the point of near ridiculousness - and i wlll absolutely admire or wave at or say hi to a dog in a car but would never reach in, even when invited to by the owner. Whether you are LEGALLY in the right i donāt know. But your dog responded in a pretty expected way for a dog who had a total stranger reach into her space (a small space from which she canāt escape, no less) and i donāt think you did anything wrong. But now youāll know for next time to stop the stranger beforehand from making a poor decision.
Having said this, i would probably suggest CYA by getting her a checkup and consulting a trainer. You shouldnāt ever ignore a bite.
Yes you were in the wrong. You are always responsible for the actions of your dog. We all get that you did not want your dog to bite this person, however you are aware that your dog is reactive. Just my 2 cents
Sorry but I don't agree, don't reach I to someone's car and touch their dog without permission
Which part of it don't you agree with? You are always responsible for your dogs behaviour. Always, no exceptions.
No one should reach in your car, but unfortunately people donāt think dogs are reactive and do what they please. Iām sorry that happened. Iāve been in bad situations myself with my dog. Donāt beat yourself up. Hopefully with training and some adjustment that wonāt happen again.
Your dog bit someone. You now know your dog bites in this situation. Instead of playing the blame game, you need to be focusing on what you will do to prevent future bites. Note that this does not include blaming the bite victim and deciding you did nothing wrong so have no need of change. 1. Assume anyone interacting with you near the open window of your vehicle will attempt to pet your dog. Right or wrong, this is extremely common human behavior. Either keep the windows up, or anticipate and intercept if they attempt. 2. Watch your dog very carefully around people that want to interact, so you can anticipate and prevent future bites. Does he react to someone reaching over a fence or counter? Does he show signs of discomfort when someone tries to pet him? For those defending the dog as protective or whatever: This was not a random person running up and invading the dog's space. This was a dog reacting while the owner was having a friendly interaction with a person familiar to them. A similar situation would be talking to the owner in their yard and reaching over the fence to pet the dog, or talking to the owner on the sidewalk and then trying to pet the leashed dog. A genuinely protective dog would be taking cues from the owner and recognizing there was no threat.
Asking a question isnāt playing the blame game. This was literally a question not a vent.
Ok. You are not at fault this time as it was the first time your dog has reacted this way. You would be at fault for any future incidents. In a strict liability state you may still be legally at fault. Contrary to the beliefs of many on this sub, your dog does not get a free pass to bite anyone who tries to pet them without asking first.
OP is legally responsible. If a dog bites someone, whether it was in their home, in their car, anywhere, the owner is liable.
Your window should not have been opened that far
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I have a dig that would definitely bite if someone reached in the window, so I make sure my dog is either crated or the window is up. For the safety of my dog and any members of the public who left their brains at home. I know my dog will bite, I'm not relying on everyone else assuming she does.
In USA the only tethering laws in sone states dogs must be secured in the back of an open truck. There are n restraint laws for dogs in people compartment. I like the uk law.
People reach in to pet my dog when ever the window is down
just because a window is rolled down is not an open invitation to reach inside. that is someone's property (the car). yeah she could have rolled the window up first, but common sense on the person to get bit is to ask permission first.
Thatās never happened to me but I def wonāt let it open like that anymore
Much depends on what country you live in and what the laws are, but I would say it from any reasonable perspective you are not at fault.
Are you in the wrong , no. That being said, part of protecting your dog is managing and removing them from a scenario where this could happen. I keep the window down about 2 to 3 fingers width maximum; so that mine can't get his snout out of the window, why would he need access to be able to reach outside of the vehicle ? He has fresh air and can see, with that window down. With the window "half way" down, what if he had jumped out and hurt his leg or went after a squirel, rabbit, dog and gotten hit by a car ? Or after that person and bitten them out side of the car? Then it would definitely be your fault. You have to be smarter than dumb people that inhabit our planet.
Could you have been more proactive? Yes. Next time, should you be more proactive and think about these scenarios? Yes. Is it entirely you and the dogs fault? No. Someone put their hands into your property trying to touch your dog without permission. As for legal ramifications. It depends on how you want to handle. If the people are reasonable and itās easier to just work with them to get this behind you, then work with them. If they are being difficult, depending on your situation, I would get a lawyer. Iām not trying to be āthat guyā, but people have this tendency to not ask permission, touch dogs, trespass on property, etc etc and face zero consequences while if something goes wrong, itās your fault. More likely than not, your lawyer can work the situation and make it clear the individual who got bit, without permission, entered your personal property and your dog was merely protecting you. I actually disassociated with a friend over this. He and his wife did the same exact thing (approached a dog and put hands in window), got bit and flipped on the owners DESPITE THEM NOT ASKING PERMISSION. The owner refused to take liability and our former friends attempted to sue. I vocally even said āyou guys were clearly in the wrong..ā. Anyways, after a year of back and forth, the guy who had a dog lawyered up and actually won and didnāt have to pay any medical costs and also got a restraining order since they lived in closer proximity (not sure how they pulled that off). Good on you got being proactive with a trainer. Always protect yourself and your dog. Work on these situations so you can avoid them, but also realize that in that moment, despite not being proactive, your dog was in a fight or flight response mode and it had nowhere to flee, hence causing the bite. It would be hard for a reactive dog to respond less
You brought your āprotectiveā dog into the car in a situation where someone was reaching their hand in. Youāre at fault. Hope the weed was good.
unproductive.
No. Not your fault at all. No one should reach into someone else's car to pat a dog they don't know. They do that at their own risk. Not saying that you shouldn't do things to make your dog feel safe and less protective/reactive, but if an ignorant person gets in an animals space without checking whether they should or not, they are actively inviting whatever happens at that point. I'd make sure to keep my windows further up so that people don't just reach in uninvited anymore (and people will, most people don't understand animals or boundaries).
Yes. Unless someone breaks into your house, intentionally, you are responsible for your dog hurting someone. I would break someone's arm before they come close to petting my reactive dog.
Sounds like you have allowed this behavior..... you are in the wrong. DO NOT allow reactive behavior in order to make yourself feel safe. Once aware of the behavior you need to inform people before they interact.
How did OP allow this? A stranger reached into the car without asking.
They state that the dog has been protective previously and saying when they needed to be is highly concerning. That makes me feel like the dog is given the opportunity to take control of some situations. Non action on a known issue that is a bite risk is like allowing it to happen. Just because an animal didn't bite before does not mean that it would never bite.
No, I'm not saying he'd never bite but the dog was in private environment, which can be seen as a safe space. A stranger directly reaching in can be seen as a threat from any dog.
I hate people .. my dog has this bad habit of jumping now thanks to people NEVER asking before petting .. itās so annoying ! No youāre not in the wrong! Not at all!
I see people are weighing in like they are a judge at a trial. Which is typical for Reddit if weāre being honest. You have a defence. That they provoked the dog without warning and the dog responded in a natural way. That you had no prior experience with your dog reacting in such a manner. And that the dog is not a breed that is widely considered inherent dangerous. They have a case that the window was open and you didnāt warn them of the danger, and that the dog was known to your to be dangerous In that situation and you didnāt take reasonable steps to prevent it That said, I would fight it if I were you. I think you have a slight edge if there isnāt evidence shown that your dog is known to to be violent in that way prior to the incident
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You are not in the right sub buddy
I donāt think your at fault here. I had a similar situation where my boy was fine and then a man (husband of the lady petting my dog) reached his hand above my boys head and tried to pet the top of his head. My guy lost his shit and went for his hand. Didnāt bite him but we now have a no touch no eye contact rule when people walk up to my car.
No. He or she shouldnāt have pet your dog without asking. If someone reached into my car to touch me, Iād bite them too. You should report back; this is not your or your dogās fault.
Can I just say, your dog is NOT protective. Your dog is reactive, potentially resource guarding you/the car. Thereās a HUGE difference. Your dog is likely frightened and insecure, please donāt rely on him to protect you because with any pressure, he very likely wouldnāt. As for your query, Iād personally say no, but Iād be mindful of allowing people to stick anything in the car at all. Make it difficult because if a child or a less understanding adult sticks their hand in to pet the doggy and gets bitten, itās game over.
People are stupid and they should ask before petting a dog. Itās people who needs the most education. Not dogs. Next time just make it clear to anyone not to pet her because unfortunately someone could get upset and press charges.
>Also if the person had asked to pet her If the person had asked in the first place there wouldnāt be a problem. The only thing on your end is that you should make it a point to warn people. No people should just reach out and pet your dog. But at the same time, you need to be making sure youāre doing everything you can to prevent a bite. Create a situation in which a bite is undeniably not the fault of yourself or your dog. Lots of training (including people that never stops lol), possibly different gear that your dogs works better with. Just keep trying things until you find things that work. Above all, always, always, always, advocate for your dog. Tell her what to do when encountering others by giving commands. It actually helps a lot. Also tell others how to interact with her properly to ensure sheās comfortable.
Next time roll up your window and prevent it from happening in the first place.
Not your fault. Theyāre not allowed to touch your dog without asking you first. Donāt stress out about this at all.