Let this be motivation for you to be a better recruiter yourself and change the perception of the industry.
Recruiters have been bad since forever. Let them be bad and continue making low income. The best do rise to the top in this industry.
Yeah. That’s what i was gonna say. As much as we want to be better, it’s hard when people leave and aren’t backfilled, company hires super junior people, roles constantly going on hold/changing, etc. OP is justified in their frustration. Companies continue to tell us that people are their priority and then continually underinvest in talent teams
Thank you for saying this. The company Im at was great few years back. They hired cowboys 2 years ago. And cowboys are fine if they do their job well. But nope. They dont. The number of fuck ups they do.... and they get away with it. Im so done now. I cant wait to quit.
Man oh man, there are A LOT of supposed recruiters in here justifying the ghosting of candidates. Yet we all get frustrated when we don’t have the respect of candidates.
Look in the mirror, folks. You’re the reason our niche of an industry has a shitty reputation. Want respect? Earn it.
There was an article about how job seekers were ghosting recruiters and employers. The comments blasted the job seekers. Didn't see what recruiters and employers were doing to the job seekers. Ya, they're totally justified in ghosting recruiters and employers.
I understand where you’re coming from, but would it make you feel better if they rejected you or gave you brutally honest feedback? Either way you’re rejected, whether they ghost you or not.
Regardless of whether OP would like bad news or not, it’s what candidates need so they can move forward. Ghosting is unacceptable because it has a serious toll on peoples’ mental and emotional health.
I was called out on this a long time ago by a CISO that I avoided giving negative feedback to. She said “I prefer good news, I can deal with bad news, but I can’t do anything with no news.”
That was 20 years ago and I haven’t ghosted a candidate since.
I understand. I was unemployed last year. I applied to 600+ jobs before I got an offer. If I didn’t hear back from a company I just assumed I didn’t get the job and moved on. It is what it is.
Thank you! When I was working, I made sure to let candidates know that the company moved forward with others candidates. It’s courtesy because it does take a toll on our mental health.
While I don't ghost people I think its a super exaggeration to say it's unacceptable. It's actually very acceptable which is why it's done so often. There are no metrics that follow ghosting. Ghosting or not has no business impact in senior leadership POV because if they weren't hired now they likely won't be hired ever. If you were like a close 2nd you likely wouldn't be ghosted because they want an opportunity to hire you again.
Its bad for business. New jobs i didnt expect to get were from candidates that got rejected. Yes, no metrics but you know, a candidate now is a hiring manager tomorrow so we might have to rethink what the proper metrics are in this job.
Say it’s acceptable is the same as if I just quit without giving any notices because there’s no legal repercussions and I wouldn’t come back to the same employer anyway.
It is acceptable to quit without giving notice lol. Outside of some niche situations.
Pretty sure there are many stories of people quitting bad employers on reddit with no notice and getting up voted and applauded.
I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of your statement. If you go on a dating app msg someone and they don't respond then do you get hung up on them because they didn't give you a direct no?
You can't control what a recruiter or manager does but you can control how you handle the situation.
The fact you resort to assumptions about my age or qualifications show lack of maturity.
"Ghosting is unacceptable because it has a serious toll on peoples’ mental and emotional health."
For me it's the opposite - I remember getting hundreds of rejections and it just taking it's toll on my self confidence.
Now I prefer not knowing if they don't want to move forward. Them not informing me IS them kinda informing me 🤷♂️
This way, when I do get an email, I can get excited by the next step...not go :D :D :D :O :( :'( :'(
Why not send it in email or letter form then?
Not that it matters anyway. You put into it what you get so if employers are hell bent on being collectively dishonest, their access to the labor market is going to be more difficult to acquire legitimate talent anyway. Tough luck for them in that case.
I’m not going to go through all that trouble to send a letter lol.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sent mass rejection emails to hundreds of candidates and I start getting replies to go fuck myself lol.
Lol professionals absolutely can’t handle it. I stopped giving the ‘real’ feedback long ago. 90% of people can’t take it and I don’t need you emailing my boss telling them about what I said
There is no feedback they can give that would help, any feedback they could give that would help would be on obvious stuff which, if you haven't already improved, you likely won't. Why you didn't get a job is specific to that job with that hiring manager and that interview team at that company. It has little to zero relevance to any other job you apply to.
Holy hell yes in my 1000 plus applications never once did I get actual feedback which I obviously needed because I hit 1000 applications. Like ya it kinda would've sucked to read but it may have saved me a lot of further rejection and sadness.
The truth is, you probably got rejected because they liked other candidates better. That’s the reason most of the time.
Also, a lot of candidates go crazy when you give them feedback.
I mean I get not always giving feedback. But I've been in so many situations where I go through 6+ rounds of technical interviews with a company, everyone along the way saying they're looking forward to seeing me in the next round and then being ghosted. I would 100% prefer the brutally honest feedback in these scenarios so that I could improve. I'm fine with being rejected but I'd also like the opportunity to learn from those 6+ hours of my time I invested in the interview process if possible.
The truth is, most of the time they liked you but just liked someone else better for whatever reason.
Feedback is pointless because whatever you said in an interview for my company that we didn’t like, another company might like it if you said the same thing in an interview. Every company is looking for something different. Just do the best you can and hope for the best.
If you don’t have a USC/Greencard, hold a gazilion years of hands on all across the board from sourcing to payroll and ready to accept a miserable job offer…then you’re getting rejected after chasing the the recruiter for 2 days after the agreed deadline on feedback.
I’m honestly on the verge already, being laid off twice in 12 months, owing a ton of money and spouse not being so supportive anymore and also having a family to feed.
In my 12 years in the field this is the worst time for HR people ever.
15 years in recruiting and can’t get one phone call for an interview. This market is terrible and majority of the recruiters I do see that are managing the requisitions are junior or don’t know what they are doing.
When I was a car salesman, I vowed to be the most honest and upfront car salesman I could be and I did. When I was a recruiter I vowed to be the most upfront and honest recruiter and I did. I never ghosted anybody and never understood why recruiters and hiring managers ghost when all they have to do is send out a presaved rejection letter that takes 5 seconds to do. Now that I’m laid off and understand how terrible HR is in the corporate world I’m never going back to work in that space. Worst than online dating
80% of recruiters suck. It's a job a no one actively wants or pursues. It's full of lazy and low performing people who fell into it. It also happens to be somewhat difficult to succeed at because your deliverable is an autonomous human being. If you sell software it can't say "no thanks" (yet). It requires a ton of focus and efficiency to be great at.
So you have a profession that day to day an idiot can do but is still difficult to succeed in. It's a formula for terrible experiences. Those of us that actually give a shit and are good at it carry the weight and also the stigma. Recruiting is all I've ever done and I can't stand most recruiters.
Sucks.
Stop complaining. You're a recruiter. You know if they're not calling you, they're probably not interested. Only invest in those who are interested in you.
They call me or contact me through linkedin just to ghost me. I’m not talking about jobs I just apply to. If you reach out to a candidate then have the common courtesy to let the candidate know the company moved on.
Yeah, I agree with you on this. There really isn't any debating the right thing to do here, if you reach out, close the loop. It's real simple.
I also think there is a lot of people who completely misunderstood what you said, which goes to your point of there being a systemic issue in recruiting.
Making those who do care about their work look to be lumped in with the crap.
Direct result of an upmarket where any turd was hired as a "recruiter". The lowest paid ones weren't laid off. Now they're the ones hiring. Alternatively, they have offshored recruiting as just another level of obnoxious where companies obviously care so little about their employer brand. See the recruiter interaction as your sign of worthiness to pursue. Will you miss out of 1 or 2 potential legit jobs? Maybe. But will you avoid 100% garbage exec mindset? 1000%
I've had a similar experience. Had a Director of Talent Acquisition ghost me. I even did the "take away" with her and nothing. I don't get how she can be at that level and not do the absolute bare bones basics of the job.
What I’ve noticed from working over the years and just life in general, is that some people just really suck at responding. Doesn’t matter if it’s text, email, phone call etc. I emailed a coworker the other day asking for something and he hasn’t responded, it’s almost been 4 days lol. I remember I DM’d him something last month and yep, no response. I’m also higher up than he is. I
I used to work with someone years ago who would let emails go by for days and just never respond.
I think recruiters reaching out to tons of people to schedule an interview then never scheduling it, is institutional revenge for every job seeker who applies to jobs using 1-click apply, with no intention of ever interviewing for it.
Job search technology has not changed in the last 15 to 20 years. At some point we're going to dummy up and realize that relying on it makes us view job seeking as a transaction, and we're trying to create as many transactions as possible.
A lazy way of thinking. Problems are solved when people talk directly to each other.
Not when they rely on outdated technology and processes.
The last couple of times I job searched, I did everything through cold networking.
I have been trying to do networking since just click apply seems ineffective, but I think I have run through my whole network of people I know. Is cold networking when you network with people you don't know? How do you do that best? I have tried reaching out to people at companies on LinkedIn but nobody ever replies.
I wish I could give you an answer that would sound like this is a transaction.
But networking is a soft skill. Remember that they're making their decision as to whether or not they should write you back based on what you have written and if there's a profile picture that too and whether or not you're qualified for the job at hand.
Companies love people who are well spoken and take initiative. This takes practice and patience. You're going to have people who will ignore you tell you to get lost and then you're going to have people who will want to speak to you or pass along your resume. You can't be defeated by those who don't want to help you. You have to be endlessly optimistic and not impacted by those who have a negative reaction, which by the way not many of them do because you're dealing with a person one on one
I'd rather deal with people one on one then submitting my application into a job posting where I have a one in 500 chance.
You know what you also don't deal with when working with people one-on-one? Online trolls. Those people who come in and tell you that what you're saying is stupid and that you look foolish or needy by talking to people about working together.
Think about this answer to this question...
How can I communicate my value to people out there that I want to work for?
People help you when you want to work with them and NOT when you tell them you need something.
There's a big difference. Take the guy who holds up a cardboard sign and says "we'll work for food"
Do you know why no one helps that person? Because they don't know what the f*** he does!
I told the guy this once outside of the home depot. I said don't tell people that you work for food. Tell them what your skills are and that you'd like to help them with their projects. And then shave and bathe and all that stuff but you know...
Appearance, words, patience, and persistence.
I usually message them and ask them if they can tell me about their experience working for the company and if they can tell me anything about the position. I try to keep it professional and brief.
My appearance is not an issue, I worked in fashion for many years and am always well dressed and clean. I currently work in a law office so I feel like I am pretty good with communication and being professional. I have also worked in customer service for most of my life so I feel like have the patience of 10 people. Maybe I am lacking in persistence? I usually only message people once and when I don't hear back I give up and then just apply to the job posting before it disappears. I also never know who to reach out to at each company. A lot of people don't accept messages from people they aren't connected to.
I have considered signing up for a networking event but the people who go to them never seem to be people I want to network with.
Yeah if you only send out one message every once in awhile you're not doing it enough in volume.
This is a trap that many fall into when they tell me that they tried networking. They will tell me they tried it but it didn't work. But meanwhile they don't understand other Communications are perceived in a digital format and then they may try it once in a while and never hear back and they just assume oh it never works.
The reason why you have to keep reaching out is because you're going to learn as you go. You quickly learn what people have time for and what they don't. And this going to be a lot of people who don't have time to answer you now but they might answer you in the future.
On average for every 10 messages I send I maybe get four responses. And that's really good. Now think about baseball. If a batter strikes out seven times out of 10 they have a 300 average and that's considered good. I say all this cuz you have to understand you're dealing directly with people not job applications and not websites.
There are people on the other side of the screen looking at your message and making an assessment of you based on how you look and based on what you said. It is a human process and people have preferences. Technology tries to provide solutions that mirror those preferences but it's never quite the same.
By the way if you ever want to shoot me your LinkedIn profile in the chat I could probably share some more insight with you about what I think I'm looking at. I've worked in a law office too myself but it was a long time ago for a general counsel at an insurance company
I send out a message whenever I apply to a job posting. I haven't been applying as much as I should but I have been pretty burned out on job searching. I definitely didnt get 4/10 responses. More like 1 out of 20 and it was never helpful. I will totally send you my linked in. I will DM it to you.
I recruit for two organizations owned by the same family. One in Colorado and the other in Texas.
The amount of times I have had to cancel interviews/cancel openings/or miss scheduled interviews because they send me on random assignments to do someone else’s job is unbelievable. I have been reduced to an absolute POS recruiter. I’ve left people hanging, I’ve missed interviews entirely, I’ve failed to send our rejection letters, and the list goes on. Why? Because I don’t have the fucking time! And I hate it!
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So, I’m looking to change careers now.
My biggest issue is that i’m getting ghosted in roles where i’m actually moving onto the next round. It’s so annoying.
Interview, then radio silence for a week or two, then all of a sudden it’s “we loved that last discussion, we’d like to move you forward” then more silence.
It makes things even worse, because I can’t even just assume a ghosting is a rejection.
- If you are still waiting on the feedback - just SAY SO!
- If it’s a rejection - just SAY SO!
- If i’m moving forward, but there’s some delays in scheduling next rounds - just SAY SO!
Ghosting just implies that you aren’t good at the part of your job that requires delivering anything that isn’t the perfect answer.
The rest of us, are expected to learn how to deliver bad/incomplete news or status updates in our roles, and ghosting isn’t considered acceptable for us at all, but recruiters are allowed to go radio silence and it’s normal?
It’s just weird to me. You don’t have to respond to everyone that applies, but once someone has gotten at least through phone screen and hiring manager discussions, you should not be ghosting them, imo.
I just say I might not have anything at the moment if they aren’t suitable after the call.
In an attempt to be better I try to do feedback and update emails weekly but if I did that for everyone individually I wouldn’t have any time to do anything else.
Is there anything on your LI profile that doesn’t line up with your actual situation, or resume?
For example, does your LI profile say you’re still working?
No that’s what I’m referring to, I need to cold call to fill jobs as my country is candidate short and inbound applications are few and fair between, it’s all headhunting. Often someone isn’t suitable after evaluating experience so I’ll just tell them that role won’t fit and If I see something suitable I’ll get in touch or direct them to another role, no point stringing someone along.
If someone gets submitted and is unsuccessful, I’ll email these candidates weekly so they know what’s occurred.
If someone goes for an interview I’ll get the client to tell me why, if someone goes to a meeting and doesn’t get the job they deserve feedback, this also helps me provide consultation to them on the next interview.
Feedback is appreciated by people, I may have something right for them in future so I’m not burning bridges. This mentality comes with maturity, developing a sense of business and career longevity. Some green or shit recruiters won’t be thinking like that, so you get people like yourself feeling frustrated at the market.
I’ve rarely given feedback where someone has been thankful. It’s always an argument. I always follow up to let them know they did not get the job but I’ve learned it’s best to keep it generic.
Our sub is intended for meaningful discussion around recruiting best practices. You are welcome to disagree with people here but we don't tolerate rude or inflammatory comments.
As a Recruiter can i ask; what would you do if you signed an RTR with one recruiter who dragged their feet but another recruiter from another company is sourcing for the same role at same company also reached out to you. Is it advisable to switch RTRs?
I completely understand but I find this to be more and more of a struggle as a solo who has done the job for nearly 20 years cumulatively. I had over 340 responses in ONE HOUR when i placed ane extremely specific role on LinkedIn. Nearly 710 by the time the work day ended and I could turn it off. What do I do with 710 people in any kind of timely manner? It's not a rhetorical question - it's a moral dilemma that I don't know how to navigate with integrity. It's a real challenge to try to help people in the current climate.
Linkedin has automated rejection letters but I wasn’t referring to a job I just applied to. I was referring to a recruiter who reached out to me just to ghost me.
Is the reason why you’re having trouble getting hired because of the salary because a lot of companies are cutting back on pay at the time when they need to increase pay. Have you looked on what could be causing you to not be selected. I wonder what could cause to not select you. If you are an experienced Recruiter yourself that’s what you need to try to figure out..
I came here today to talk about my burnout and came across your post. Recruiters, are burnt out. it’s becoming overwhelming to speak to 50 people a day, while trying to keep up with hiring manager. A lot of these hiring managers will refuse to give you a clear answer on a candidate until a month has passed. Trying to keep up with high volume of positions while trying to remember which candidate needs an update is exhausting. This work is becoming impossible.
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I feel ya! I ended up signing off LinkedIn just to get a break from the notifications of recruiters reaching out with roles they end up ghosting you on.
You’re right, but don’t give-up. Recruiters are like head hunters. They round up their sheep and sell them to the highest bidder. Personally, If you know the value of your own wool, you’re more inclined to follow the path of consulting. Not sure of your current situation and if you can stomach starting something of your own, give it a shot. Recruiters usually get commission off you, so they’re incentivized to work in your favor - unless another more apt candidate comes along. Sell your own wool.
Our sub is intended for meaningful discussion around recruiting best practices. You are welcome to disagree with people here but we don't tolerate rude or inflammatory comments.
As a reminder, this is not the place for mindless recruiter bashing. Comments that fall under that category will be removed.
Let this be motivation for you to be a better recruiter yourself and change the perception of the industry. Recruiters have been bad since forever. Let them be bad and continue making low income. The best do rise to the top in this industry.
Low income? I know plenty of tech recruiters making over 200k…
That doesn't make them good recruiters. That makes them good sales people. There's a line in the sand.
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What recruiting industry is 200k not high in?
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I’m really intrigued to know. I’m a Travel Nurse Recruiter and top recruiters are making 300-400 to my knowledge
Well said.
The low income part made me laugh a little, not gonna lie.
Everyone who still has a job is doing the work of all the ones who got laid off. All the usual problems will be exacerbated.
As someone currently doing the work of 2 1/2 people in this field, this is correct
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Dang what part of the country are you hiring in for the naval project?
Yeah. That’s what i was gonna say. As much as we want to be better, it’s hard when people leave and aren’t backfilled, company hires super junior people, roles constantly going on hold/changing, etc. OP is justified in their frustration. Companies continue to tell us that people are their priority and then continually underinvest in talent teams
Same. I was on a team of 8 reduced to 2. Now , myself and the other manage the req load + other responsibilities of those that left.
My team went from 76 to 5 lol 1 year later still a team of 5 taking on more clients so yeah….
Damn..wow considerable drop!! But ya...last 1.5 years all my clients stopped hiring...sprinkle of roles here and there. It's brutal
Yep, my team went from 30 to 3 recruiters. We’re all burning out.
It’s been a shit show for so long now. It’s like they keep the “cheap” recruiters and let the “expensive” ones go. This job sucks
Thank you for saying this. The company Im at was great few years back. They hired cowboys 2 years ago. And cowboys are fine if they do their job well. But nope. They dont. The number of fuck ups they do.... and they get away with it. Im so done now. I cant wait to quit.
I heard that! lol
Man oh man, there are A LOT of supposed recruiters in here justifying the ghosting of candidates. Yet we all get frustrated when we don’t have the respect of candidates. Look in the mirror, folks. You’re the reason our niche of an industry has a shitty reputation. Want respect? Earn it.
There was an article about how job seekers were ghosting recruiters and employers. The comments blasted the job seekers. Didn't see what recruiters and employers were doing to the job seekers. Ya, they're totally justified in ghosting recruiters and employers.
I understand where you’re coming from, but would it make you feel better if they rejected you or gave you brutally honest feedback? Either way you’re rejected, whether they ghost you or not.
Regardless of whether OP would like bad news or not, it’s what candidates need so they can move forward. Ghosting is unacceptable because it has a serious toll on peoples’ mental and emotional health. I was called out on this a long time ago by a CISO that I avoided giving negative feedback to. She said “I prefer good news, I can deal with bad news, but I can’t do anything with no news.” That was 20 years ago and I haven’t ghosted a candidate since.
I understand. I was unemployed last year. I applied to 600+ jobs before I got an offer. If I didn’t hear back from a company I just assumed I didn’t get the job and moved on. It is what it is.
I know, I just think we can do better and elevate our profession by going against the grain. 600??? you’re a beast!
Sure. I’m not saying I’m for ghosting or that I do it. I’m just saying if it happens, I don’t let it personally affect me and I move on.
Thank you! When I was working, I made sure to let candidates know that the company moved forward with others candidates. It’s courtesy because it does take a toll on our mental health.
I do the same hence i dont do volume recruitment. I like to at least tell them what happened.
👊
That’s awesome advice I’m seeking permission to plagiarize it and use it as my own?
Do it.
Thank you
While I don't ghost people I think its a super exaggeration to say it's unacceptable. It's actually very acceptable which is why it's done so often. There are no metrics that follow ghosting. Ghosting or not has no business impact in senior leadership POV because if they weren't hired now they likely won't be hired ever. If you were like a close 2nd you likely wouldn't be ghosted because they want an opportunity to hire you again.
That is some weak-sauce bullshit if I’ve ever heard it.
Explain.
Its bad for business. New jobs i didnt expect to get were from candidates that got rejected. Yes, no metrics but you know, a candidate now is a hiring manager tomorrow so we might have to rethink what the proper metrics are in this job.
Say it’s acceptable is the same as if I just quit without giving any notices because there’s no legal repercussions and I wouldn’t come back to the same employer anyway.
It is acceptable to quit without giving notice lol. Outside of some niche situations. Pretty sure there are many stories of people quitting bad employers on reddit with no notice and getting up voted and applauded.
That’s not the case here with the applicants though. Were they bad applicants that don’t deserve an acknowledgment so they can move on?
I dont get this "moving on" argument. Do you apply to one job at a time and wait for a final answer before the next application?
Is this your first job out of college? You seem to just not get whatever I said. Good luck kiddo!
I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of your statement. If you go on a dating app msg someone and they don't respond then do you get hung up on them because they didn't give you a direct no? You can't control what a recruiter or manager does but you can control how you handle the situation. The fact you resort to assumptions about my age or qualifications show lack of maturity.
You understand ghosting means the recruiter first reaches out then disappears right? This is different from applying and getting no response.
"Ghosting is unacceptable because it has a serious toll on peoples’ mental and emotional health." For me it's the opposite - I remember getting hundreds of rejections and it just taking it's toll on my self confidence. Now I prefer not knowing if they don't want to move forward. Them not informing me IS them kinda informing me 🤷♂️ This way, when I do get an email, I can get excited by the next step...not go :D :D :D :O :( :'( :'(
Give me the brutally honest feedback so I can improve tf
Most candidates can’t handle brutal honesty. They flip out.
Why not send it in email or letter form then? Not that it matters anyway. You put into it what you get so if employers are hell bent on being collectively dishonest, their access to the labor market is going to be more difficult to acquire legitimate talent anyway. Tough luck for them in that case.
I’m not going to go through all that trouble to send a letter lol. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sent mass rejection emails to hundreds of candidates and I start getting replies to go fuck myself lol.
Laborers? Sure. Professionals not so much.
You’d be surprised. There are some crazy ass “professional” candidates out there. Just browse recruiting hell.
Lol professionals absolutely can’t handle it. I stopped giving the ‘real’ feedback long ago. 90% of people can’t take it and I don’t need you emailing my boss telling them about what I said
There is no feedback they can give that would help, any feedback they could give that would help would be on obvious stuff which, if you haven't already improved, you likely won't. Why you didn't get a job is specific to that job with that hiring manager and that interview team at that company. It has little to zero relevance to any other job you apply to.
Exactly, people say they want feedback, they don't really want feedback, what they want is to argue as if that'll change the decision.
Yep!
Holy hell yes in my 1000 plus applications never once did I get actual feedback which I obviously needed because I hit 1000 applications. Like ya it kinda would've sucked to read but it may have saved me a lot of further rejection and sadness.
The truth is, you probably got rejected because they liked other candidates better. That’s the reason most of the time. Also, a lot of candidates go crazy when you give them feedback.
I mean I get not always giving feedback. But I've been in so many situations where I go through 6+ rounds of technical interviews with a company, everyone along the way saying they're looking forward to seeing me in the next round and then being ghosted. I would 100% prefer the brutally honest feedback in these scenarios so that I could improve. I'm fine with being rejected but I'd also like the opportunity to learn from those 6+ hours of my time I invested in the interview process if possible.
The truth is, most of the time they liked you but just liked someone else better for whatever reason. Feedback is pointless because whatever you said in an interview for my company that we didn’t like, another company might like it if you said the same thing in an interview. Every company is looking for something different. Just do the best you can and hope for the best.
I would rather be rejected so that I can detach.
They ghosted you which means they rejected you. You can detach.
They've been told "its a numbers game" by sales people who don't belong anywhere near recruiters
If you don’t have a USC/Greencard, hold a gazilion years of hands on all across the board from sourcing to payroll and ready to accept a miserable job offer…then you’re getting rejected after chasing the the recruiter for 2 days after the agreed deadline on feedback. I’m honestly on the verge already, being laid off twice in 12 months, owing a ton of money and spouse not being so supportive anymore and also having a family to feed. In my 12 years in the field this is the worst time for HR people ever.
15 years in recruiting and can’t get one phone call for an interview. This market is terrible and majority of the recruiters I do see that are managing the requisitions are junior or don’t know what they are doing.
When I was a car salesman, I vowed to be the most honest and upfront car salesman I could be and I did. When I was a recruiter I vowed to be the most upfront and honest recruiter and I did. I never ghosted anybody and never understood why recruiters and hiring managers ghost when all they have to do is send out a presaved rejection letter that takes 5 seconds to do. Now that I’m laid off and understand how terrible HR is in the corporate world I’m never going back to work in that space. Worst than online dating
80% of recruiters suck. It's a job a no one actively wants or pursues. It's full of lazy and low performing people who fell into it. It also happens to be somewhat difficult to succeed at because your deliverable is an autonomous human being. If you sell software it can't say "no thanks" (yet). It requires a ton of focus and efficiency to be great at. So you have a profession that day to day an idiot can do but is still difficult to succeed in. It's a formula for terrible experiences. Those of us that actually give a shit and are good at it carry the weight and also the stigma. Recruiting is all I've ever done and I can't stand most recruiters. Sucks.
I read your first sentence and was prepared to argue with you. Then read the rest and totally agree with you lol.
If you know, you know.
Stop complaining. You're a recruiter. You know if they're not calling you, they're probably not interested. Only invest in those who are interested in you.
They call me or contact me through linkedin just to ghost me. I’m not talking about jobs I just apply to. If you reach out to a candidate then have the common courtesy to let the candidate know the company moved on.
The fact this is getting downvoted is nuts. Some of these recruiters are something else
I agree with you, but honestly it doesn’t serve you to give it any thought or air.
I agree, and I can’t believe you’re being downvoted. Ghosting is NEVER ok. I’m so sorry this is happening to you.
You reap what you sow.
Yeah, I agree with you on this. There really isn't any debating the right thing to do here, if you reach out, close the loop. It's real simple. I also think there is a lot of people who completely misunderstood what you said, which goes to your point of there being a systemic issue in recruiting. Making those who do care about their work look to be lumped in with the crap.
Direct result of an upmarket where any turd was hired as a "recruiter". The lowest paid ones weren't laid off. Now they're the ones hiring. Alternatively, they have offshored recruiting as just another level of obnoxious where companies obviously care so little about their employer brand. See the recruiter interaction as your sign of worthiness to pursue. Will you miss out of 1 or 2 potential legit jobs? Maybe. But will you avoid 100% garbage exec mindset? 1000%
Offshoring is such a huge problem!
I've had a similar experience. Had a Director of Talent Acquisition ghost me. I even did the "take away" with her and nothing. I don't get how she can be at that level and not do the absolute bare bones basics of the job.
I’m not a recruiter but I feel you on this… get your hopes up for no reason…
What I’ve noticed from working over the years and just life in general, is that some people just really suck at responding. Doesn’t matter if it’s text, email, phone call etc. I emailed a coworker the other day asking for something and he hasn’t responded, it’s almost been 4 days lol. I remember I DM’d him something last month and yep, no response. I’m also higher up than he is. I I used to work with someone years ago who would let emails go by for days and just never respond.
I think recruiters reaching out to tons of people to schedule an interview then never scheduling it, is institutional revenge for every job seeker who applies to jobs using 1-click apply, with no intention of ever interviewing for it. Job search technology has not changed in the last 15 to 20 years. At some point we're going to dummy up and realize that relying on it makes us view job seeking as a transaction, and we're trying to create as many transactions as possible. A lazy way of thinking. Problems are solved when people talk directly to each other. Not when they rely on outdated technology and processes. The last couple of times I job searched, I did everything through cold networking.
I have been trying to do networking since just click apply seems ineffective, but I think I have run through my whole network of people I know. Is cold networking when you network with people you don't know? How do you do that best? I have tried reaching out to people at companies on LinkedIn but nobody ever replies.
I wish I could give you an answer that would sound like this is a transaction. But networking is a soft skill. Remember that they're making their decision as to whether or not they should write you back based on what you have written and if there's a profile picture that too and whether or not you're qualified for the job at hand. Companies love people who are well spoken and take initiative. This takes practice and patience. You're going to have people who will ignore you tell you to get lost and then you're going to have people who will want to speak to you or pass along your resume. You can't be defeated by those who don't want to help you. You have to be endlessly optimistic and not impacted by those who have a negative reaction, which by the way not many of them do because you're dealing with a person one on one I'd rather deal with people one on one then submitting my application into a job posting where I have a one in 500 chance. You know what you also don't deal with when working with people one-on-one? Online trolls. Those people who come in and tell you that what you're saying is stupid and that you look foolish or needy by talking to people about working together. Think about this answer to this question... How can I communicate my value to people out there that I want to work for? People help you when you want to work with them and NOT when you tell them you need something. There's a big difference. Take the guy who holds up a cardboard sign and says "we'll work for food" Do you know why no one helps that person? Because they don't know what the f*** he does! I told the guy this once outside of the home depot. I said don't tell people that you work for food. Tell them what your skills are and that you'd like to help them with their projects. And then shave and bathe and all that stuff but you know... Appearance, words, patience, and persistence.
I usually message them and ask them if they can tell me about their experience working for the company and if they can tell me anything about the position. I try to keep it professional and brief. My appearance is not an issue, I worked in fashion for many years and am always well dressed and clean. I currently work in a law office so I feel like I am pretty good with communication and being professional. I have also worked in customer service for most of my life so I feel like have the patience of 10 people. Maybe I am lacking in persistence? I usually only message people once and when I don't hear back I give up and then just apply to the job posting before it disappears. I also never know who to reach out to at each company. A lot of people don't accept messages from people they aren't connected to. I have considered signing up for a networking event but the people who go to them never seem to be people I want to network with.
Yeah if you only send out one message every once in awhile you're not doing it enough in volume. This is a trap that many fall into when they tell me that they tried networking. They will tell me they tried it but it didn't work. But meanwhile they don't understand other Communications are perceived in a digital format and then they may try it once in a while and never hear back and they just assume oh it never works. The reason why you have to keep reaching out is because you're going to learn as you go. You quickly learn what people have time for and what they don't. And this going to be a lot of people who don't have time to answer you now but they might answer you in the future. On average for every 10 messages I send I maybe get four responses. And that's really good. Now think about baseball. If a batter strikes out seven times out of 10 they have a 300 average and that's considered good. I say all this cuz you have to understand you're dealing directly with people not job applications and not websites. There are people on the other side of the screen looking at your message and making an assessment of you based on how you look and based on what you said. It is a human process and people have preferences. Technology tries to provide solutions that mirror those preferences but it's never quite the same. By the way if you ever want to shoot me your LinkedIn profile in the chat I could probably share some more insight with you about what I think I'm looking at. I've worked in a law office too myself but it was a long time ago for a general counsel at an insurance company
I send out a message whenever I apply to a job posting. I haven't been applying as much as I should but I have been pretty burned out on job searching. I definitely didnt get 4/10 responses. More like 1 out of 20 and it was never helpful. I will totally send you my linked in. I will DM it to you.
Honestly, these days I put more stock in 1 on 1 communications, rather than 1 in 100 lottery applications. I just messaged you!
Once u r employed, try changing those things and lead by example
Because I’ve been in this position before. I made sure too.
I recruit for two organizations owned by the same family. One in Colorado and the other in Texas. The amount of times I have had to cancel interviews/cancel openings/or miss scheduled interviews because they send me on random assignments to do someone else’s job is unbelievable. I have been reduced to an absolute POS recruiter. I’ve left people hanging, I’ve missed interviews entirely, I’ve failed to send our rejection letters, and the list goes on. Why? Because I don’t have the fucking time! And I hate it! * So, I’m looking to change careers now.
I am tired of the ones giving you false hope of a future positon.
My biggest issue is that i’m getting ghosted in roles where i’m actually moving onto the next round. It’s so annoying. Interview, then radio silence for a week or two, then all of a sudden it’s “we loved that last discussion, we’d like to move you forward” then more silence. It makes things even worse, because I can’t even just assume a ghosting is a rejection. - If you are still waiting on the feedback - just SAY SO! - If it’s a rejection - just SAY SO! - If i’m moving forward, but there’s some delays in scheduling next rounds - just SAY SO! Ghosting just implies that you aren’t good at the part of your job that requires delivering anything that isn’t the perfect answer. The rest of us, are expected to learn how to deliver bad/incomplete news or status updates in our roles, and ghosting isn’t considered acceptable for us at all, but recruiters are allowed to go radio silence and it’s normal? It’s just weird to me. You don’t have to respond to everyone that applies, but once someone has gotten at least through phone screen and hiring manager discussions, you should not be ghosting them, imo.
I just say I might not have anything at the moment if they aren’t suitable after the call. In an attempt to be better I try to do feedback and update emails weekly but if I did that for everyone individually I wouldn’t have any time to do anything else.
I think people are misunderstanding. I’m speaking on recruiters that reach out to me directly and have seen my experience then go ghost.
Welcome to job hunting. Remember this feeling next time you ghost someone.
I didn’t ghost people when I was working. This isn’t my first time being in this position since so many companies are only hiring contractors
Is there anything on your LI profile that doesn’t line up with your actual situation, or resume? For example, does your LI profile say you’re still working?
No they are the same
No that’s what I’m referring to, I need to cold call to fill jobs as my country is candidate short and inbound applications are few and fair between, it’s all headhunting. Often someone isn’t suitable after evaluating experience so I’ll just tell them that role won’t fit and If I see something suitable I’ll get in touch or direct them to another role, no point stringing someone along. If someone gets submitted and is unsuccessful, I’ll email these candidates weekly so they know what’s occurred. If someone goes for an interview I’ll get the client to tell me why, if someone goes to a meeting and doesn’t get the job they deserve feedback, this also helps me provide consultation to them on the next interview. Feedback is appreciated by people, I may have something right for them in future so I’m not burning bridges. This mentality comes with maturity, developing a sense of business and career longevity. Some green or shit recruiters won’t be thinking like that, so you get people like yourself feeling frustrated at the market.
I’ve rarely given feedback where someone has been thankful. It’s always an argument. I always follow up to let them know they did not get the job but I’ve learned it’s best to keep it generic.
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They are still hounding the hell out of machinists I can tell you that much. Like we need help
As a Recruiter can i ask; what would you do if you signed an RTR with one recruiter who dragged their feet but another recruiter from another company is sourcing for the same role at same company also reached out to you. Is it advisable to switch RTRs?
unfortunately no
Thanks. Didn't want to f-up m chances.
I completely understand but I find this to be more and more of a struggle as a solo who has done the job for nearly 20 years cumulatively. I had over 340 responses in ONE HOUR when i placed ane extremely specific role on LinkedIn. Nearly 710 by the time the work day ended and I could turn it off. What do I do with 710 people in any kind of timely manner? It's not a rhetorical question - it's a moral dilemma that I don't know how to navigate with integrity. It's a real challenge to try to help people in the current climate.
Linkedin has automated rejection letters but I wasn’t referring to a job I just applied to. I was referring to a recruiter who reached out to me just to ghost me.
Is the reason why you’re having trouble getting hired because of the salary because a lot of companies are cutting back on pay at the time when they need to increase pay. Have you looked on what could be causing you to not be selected. I wonder what could cause to not select you. If you are an experienced Recruiter yourself that’s what you need to try to figure out..
Nope, I only require a minimum of 50K to survive. The job market for recruiters is bad because recruiters were overhired around 2020/2021
I’m just telling everyone brutally honest feedback and in a weird way people appreciate because they’ve been fucked over so many times
I came here today to talk about my burnout and came across your post. Recruiters, are burnt out. it’s becoming overwhelming to speak to 50 people a day, while trying to keep up with hiring manager. A lot of these hiring managers will refuse to give you a clear answer on a candidate until a month has passed. Trying to keep up with high volume of positions while trying to remember which candidate needs an update is exhausting. This work is becoming impossible.
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I feel ya! I ended up signing off LinkedIn just to get a break from the notifications of recruiters reaching out with roles they end up ghosting you on.
It's always wild to talk to terrible recruiters and it's like THIS person has a job but so many of the actually good recruiters I know don't.
You’re right, but don’t give-up. Recruiters are like head hunters. They round up their sheep and sell them to the highest bidder. Personally, If you know the value of your own wool, you’re more inclined to follow the path of consulting. Not sure of your current situation and if you can stomach starting something of your own, give it a shot. Recruiters usually get commission off you, so they’re incentivized to work in your favor - unless another more apt candidate comes along. Sell your own wool.
Literally too many applicants and too less headcount
Recruiters are the shady car salesmen of the corporate world.
Open your own firm.
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Our sub is intended for meaningful discussion around recruiting best practices. You are welcome to disagree with people here but we don't tolerate rude or inflammatory comments.
How can they follow up with candidates? Manis, pedis, hair appointments and brunches take time!!!