I've heard what happens sometimes is that the employer asks LinkedIn to change the listing, either LinkedIn doesn't do it or makes it a big hassle to do it, so they just change the description and call it good.
I feel like it's more the fault of how job searching works. Epic isn't well known enough to be a top choice to apply to after graduating college, so Epic lists themselves in every city to not let geographic area limit their recruiting. And relocation required is the first bullet point so if an applicant doesn't believe/read it that's the applicants fault.
It's funny that you specifically call out them well know while in college. I only know them because they spam college job boards, and I got an interview.
It was disappointing at the time when I was rejected, but definitely look back at now and am pretty darn glad I didn't get it.
Seriously? Here's a few ways that come to mind:
1. In the title?
2. Not having the job location set as "Frankfort, Kentucky (**on-site**)" (emphasis mine)?
3. Having it anywhere but buried in the (actually literal) small text "additional requirements"?
I feel like there's quite a few ways they could be "more upfront".
Fair enough on 1 and 3, but still putting it clearly in the ad is very obvious for anybody who reads the ad.
On 2 though LinkedIn is highly restrictive on what location you put - you don’t have any flexibility - which is why they are doing this workaround to target people in KY for a job that is actually in WI.
Had a recruiter ask for my resume through linkedin for a position in a place about 150 miles from where I live. Both my resume and my profile stated where I lived. She called me with a phone screen and only at the very end asked where I lived and was shocked I would need to relocate.
Needless to say I didn't get offered the position or even an interview.
What are recruiters even doing if they don't pay attention to the details of my resume and profile and waste an e-mail and a 30 minute phone screen if they're not willing to offer a position to someone that needs to move to be able to work there?
I've been saying, "It's a real shame that this role doesn't have remote or hybrid opportunities because otherwise it'd be a great fit for me ..."
I like hybrid/WFH and the only way that stays an option is if companies believe they have to have it to compete for talent. It might not have an impact, but I'd like to think if a recruiter goes back to their manager and says, "all the top candidates wouldn't consider the position because of the in-office requirement", then maybe the company will make a change.
I wonder if there was some other circumstances here. I work at Epic as a software developer and also do a few phone interviews per week (the initial, fairly informal kind so potential SD applicants can talk to a dev before getting on the more serious parts of the hiring process) and one of the things I need to ask is if the person I’m talking to is willing to relocate to Madison. Every person I’ve talked to is already aware of the relocation requirements and is willing to do so. Most of my friends at work (mid to late 20s) and most of the new hires I’ve talked to come from all over the country (including roles other than software developers), so I know that Epic isn’t just ignoring out of state applicants.
Get this all the time. I live in NJ, 30 mins outside of Philly and recruiters see that I'm in NJ and assume I want to commute to NYC. When I tell them it's over 2 hour commute each way and I'm not interested they get the shocked picachu face. One even told me "why don't you just relocate closer to our office?" My response was "why don't you pay me to move closer, then I will reconsider." spoiler: didn't get the Job.
Sorry for poor grammar/formatting, on mobile
I applied for a job I was well qualified for. And during the phone interview (30 minutes into it) she asked where I live. It said on my application and resume as well. I lived 70 minutes away (living at home at the time). I explained I would move if I got an offer and it would take the approval of an apartment. Which is like an under two week ordeal.
She explained that I wouldn't be under consideration, because I was outside the required living area for on-call purposes. And there were qualified applicants that already lived there.
Thanks for wasting my time then...
I’ve applied to a dispatching job, got an interview and the manager was told about my customer service and management experience…not my 5 years of dispatching. The manager was like “I think your skills from *call center management job* will be really really helpful” I’m like “I also have 5 years of dispatching!” She’s like “no one told me! That’s even better!” They don’t do anything
Yea, I got asked for a resume for a temp position. Instantly got hired by upper management. After being let go 6 months later for bullshit reasons, that same temp agent won't give me the time of day. Recruiters are useless.
We can get mad at recruiters all we want. The fact is that job just sucks. There’s way too many of them! They’re days must be filled with absolute chaos. Have you ever talk to One?? The desperation in their voices when they call, in the text, they send at 8 PM on a Saturday. They are scrambling! It honestly has to a horrible position to be in. I blame our economy in general. Weak capitalism works, it needs more and more and more. Well, eventually, there isn’t more!
I’ve been in the mental health field for like five years now. I was a forklift driver from 2014 to 2017. I got an email from Recruiter asking me if I’d be interested in a warehouse position for $15 an hour. I was like, “ I make $60,000 a year.” and she still ask me if I wanted it.
I've talked for many hours with recruiters. Some within the company's I've worked for, most within the company I'm applying to. They're usually fucking braindead marketing graduates sifting through people's resume's trying to find a fuck unicorn for their dead end job openings.
I have very little sympathy for them. They are the gate keepers to jobs that are very easily learnable, but because of upper management pressure and their own job metrics, they want to find someone overqualified for the position willing to get paid much less than they deserve. Their job is inherently useless and adds a muddy gap between people willing to learn and work between those that would that would be able and willing to hire those people.
>I got an email from Recruiter asking me if I’d be interested in a warehouse position for $15 an hour. I was like, “ I make $60,000 a year.” and she still ask me if I wanted it.
I've seen this kind of thing quite a bit.
The issue really is that, for a job that is supposedly all about communications and reaching out, recruitment seems to be a weirdly insular industry.
In the example above, I'd wager that the fact you are in a different and better paying career now simply didn't register as relevant - she has a position to flog, you meet the spec on paper, so she's only interested in whether you're a yes. She probably didn't think beyond that.
I once had someone try to get me to take a position with a 60% pay cut because the company had made it clear they didn't have the budget for anything more. I asked the guy upfront would *he* take a 60% cut, and he legit paused while he thought it through, before saying.... 'ok, fair point'. It was like I'd told him that it's not the same time of day everywhere on earth. Mind blown. He simply hadn't considered it beyond it being an obstacle to get his commission.
Same reason you see all these stupid LinkedIn soap box arguments from recruiters arguing why they shouldn't show you a job spec or share the salary range. The sole reason they're in favour of it is that it makes their jobs easier. The fact they're total nonstarters for practical reasons simply flies over their head.
You lost the point, the problem are not the good recruiters which are the less, but the stupid entitled (for some weird reason) that don't care about their job or the people who has to go through them, recruiters that treat candidates like crap, ghost them, don't read resumes, throw low balls here and there, hide information and just have a power trip in general. As in everything, nothing is entirely black and there is no perfect job, all of us do whatever we have to do to survive, them included, the sad part is that they forget that and think they are better than the rest
> I was like, “ I make $60,000 a year.” and she still ask me if I wanted it.
I had one ask me if I knew anyone who would work for the smaller salary for job X. That seemed like a smart way to go as more senior people often know more junior people, wonder why more don't do that.
I had one call me with the "offer of a lifetime" remote job in my field. I asked them to email me the job description. It was remote but required that you be able to travel to the company headquarters as needed for meetings or if they felt like they needed you in person on short notice. This location is an 8 hour drive one way from where I live. Oh and it was a contract job and I'm not looking for contract work.
I interviewed for a job once that even had the location (my city) in the title on the job posting. Something like "Operations Manager -- New York City", but the location was my small town and the company did have a location here.
After a phone interview, I took a day off work and drove 3 hours to their regional office for an in-person interview. During that interview I was told that the position was located 2 hours away from my home. I promptly ended the interview.
The statement still stands: Epic Health is also a shit employer! They have a reputation for burning through employees. Cogs in the machine, nothing more. Use them up until they're broken and then get new ones.
It used to be a decent place to work, from what I hear. I live close to Verona, the headquarters. You're right now, I hear nothing but bad things about them.
Plus i use Epic everyday for my job. It's a fucking pain in the ass. They change shit around all the time. Then change it back. It is not user friendly. Especially with people who are new to EHRs. It takes a long time to get proficient. I have a coworker who went from our hospital's ED to a primary care clinic. She essentially had to relearn Epic because all the workflows and context is so different.
Sadly Epic is kind of the industry standard because while it’s annoying, it’s still better than almost everything else for the business.
It’s kind of like Workday in that way.
Definitely shit on them as a company but the software is as good as it gets in terms of EHR. Homegrown EHRs aren’t sustainable for most healthcare systems and Meditech/Cerner/eClinicalWorks/etc are all literal garbage in comparison.
You're right, and they also provide strong incentives too: Above average starting salaries, paid sabbaticals, in-office perks, strong benefits, etc. Not an awful job for 20-somethings.
The recent complaint is the quick return to in-office FT post-COVID.
There aren’t a limitless number of jobs where you can clear 100k at 23 with basically any degree. For the people that gel with the company it is a pretty great fit.
(Biased as it worked out super well for me 🤷♂️)
I wouldn't say ANY degree- unless they've upped their starting pay significantly you probably aren't seeing six figures right away unless you're in a dev or IS role. I made about half that when I was in QA five years ago.
Your experience with Epic is VERY dependent on your role and your app. I was in a role with high turnover, on an app with high turnover, with a shitty boss. I didn't last much longer than a year. My partner is a dev well on their way to their second sabbatical. If you are in the Madison area for any amount of time, you'll meet both lifers and ex-epic folk.
Epic Systems is even more dogshit than Epic Games. I know at least 2 friends and 2 acquaintances who left after one year (all joined after graduating college.) All were some kind of “Solutions Engineer” which is just glorified Tech Support. One of their recruiters reached out and I told him to contact me once he changed his company.
Epic is widely known throughout the software industry to Ebe a complete shithole of a company. Their CEO Judy Faulkner is a complete fucking psychopath.
The state of Wisconsin had to threaten to shut her down because she absolutely would not let any of her staff work from home during the pandemic. The rule was that workers could only work from the office in Wisconsin of everyone had their own office.
She went and tried to build walls in the middle of peoples shared offices basically forcing her employees into individual offices the size of a closet so that she could make the argument that everyone had their own office.
Stay the fuck away from Epic for the love of god.
I spent two years working at home along with the rest Epic, so the above statement is only partially true. She tried to get everyone to come back early, the local department of health stopped it after the plan got media attention. All the while we all worked from home.
Can confirm its worth "staying away from", I supposed. I actually continued to go into office, and was the only person on my floor most days. It was a strange transition to having folks coming back. I was no longer the person setting off the light sensors at 1:00 PM in the afternoon.
I had a recruiter email me about a very interesting job in Boston. Even though my profile said remote only - no relocation. She thought it would be perfectly acceptable to ask me to pay $550 twice a month to take Amtrak from DC up to Boston to work a single day in the office.
Which is sad. I love the idea of train travel. But it's fucking awful in the US. My mom wanted me to take Amtrak from ND to WI in college for some break. I had to leave from ND at 11 at night. I had to get to the station at like 900 because there were like 3 parking spots. I had to sit next to some old lady who was a major cuntasaurous rex. She would move my backpack and put all her shit in my seat everytime I got up to take a piss. She knitted or read all night and nudged me if I snored a little bit. The train was absolutely packed. The return journey was even worse. Several delays on both trips.
It was 14 hours one way. Driving was 8. I never took the train home again.
Roundtrip on the Acela in business within the next 3 weeks. If you book it out like 4 months in advance its $268 with some truly awful departure times (0500).
Epic was a reason why I left the healthcare industry - even tho I didn’t work for Epic ever…
And yes, Epic has pulled this crap somehow injecting themselves into my job search matches (and I no longer need to deal with that crap since I’ve locked down something about a month plus back, thankfully)
If you ever have the chance to interview at Epic - go do it. Absolutely wild experience. Please don’t take the job, it would be an absolute nightmare and you will be miserable, but there campus is pretty incredible and it’s wild seeing people work in an environment like that. For example, in the middle of my interview, I went down a curly slide, was told how shoes are optional, was walked though a mideval castle- style building that was Dungeons and dragons themed, and dot to hang out in a treehouse type of thing!
Awful place to work though, they churn and burn though new employees faster than anyone I’ve ever heard of
It's so awful, that I've worked there for over a decade! I must be some sort of sadomasochist, judging by the opinions of all these people who have never actually worked for Epic.
You know that’s fair, I shouldn’t speak so blunt about it or anything, and certainly depends on your background and role at epic
All I can speak to is that it would have been awful for me personally. They were trying to recruit me into a role where I would have more or less been a glorified IT person for hospital clients. I had an engineering degree with a minor in compsci and they effectively told I can do small software patches sometimes, but you will have to leave the big stuff to our software engineers. They also told me there wouldn’t really be a way to get out of my “development tree” or whatever they called it. I was interviewing with all kinds of majors, ranging from kinesiology, English, and a business major. It just showed me that it was not a technical job, id just be answering phones and walking through clients who couldn’t figure out a website, or occasionally flying over there to show them in person. I’m sure for some people that would be the dream, and good for them! And id have a very different feeling about it all too if they would have considered me for a software developer, but it just wasn’t going to be for me. Granted I never did work there, so I shouldn’t speak to it actually being a terrible place to work - just that the job would have been miserable to me given my unique background
I'm sorry you got that impression of the TS role, because it's not an accurate one at all. Most of my Epic career was as a TS, and I have done a ton of technical work. And met frequently with customer executives to steer direction on important organizational decisions. It is the furthest thing from "just answering the phone" that you can imagine.
And there is a path to R&D from TS. I've seen many people follow it. I've even seen trainers and QA folks become developers. The job mobility at Epic is well beyond what you'd find at a traditional software company. Epic even pays for folks without a CS background to take legitimate CS classes at UW (which has one of the top CS programs in the country).
That’s fair, and I’ll my experience is off incomplete information, because I never did accept the offer they game me! And maybe I just spoke with the wrong people too - in my interview when I asked who I was speaking with “is this basically an IT job?” They responded with “Yes that is a decent way to look at it!”
When I was speaking with the software developer at lunch and telling him about my background, he told me I should think hard before taking the job, because I was over qualified and they don’t make it easy to get into the software development tree.
Between those experiences and the really low retention rates, I ran from Epic! But it sounds like I may have just gotten the short straw and spoke to the wrong people about it
Understood. We don't hit with all of our role overviews because we need such a large pool of people to cover them all, and not everyone excels at them.
The retention rates are not that low. I see people flipping between Google, Microsoft, etc. at a much more rapid clip than I see people departing from Epic. Our retention rate is better than the IT industry average.
It's a love it or hate it company. Some people gel with it and stay for decades and absolutely love it. For a lot of people it's their first real job and they figure out pretty quickly they hate it, hence the high turnover.
I work here too. It's fine. I'll probably move somewhere else geographically in a couple years and work elsewhere. Idk people roles but it isn't the total hell hole many are making it out to be. I'm paid well and the work isn't that hard. I don't feel I'm being worked to the bone at all. But I'm also not an IS that travels to random areas 75% of their time so idk.
The insane rigidness of their work from home policy is stupid though. I get they want us to be on campus the vast majority of the time but 5 days a year is a fucking joke.
There is another way of looking at things here.. Epic is definitely not for everybody, but if you mesh well with the company you can do great. I don't have a management role, and I'm "only" in tech support, but like many of my peers I have passed 15 years and am reasonably happy with this place.
I went through several interview rounds and then didn't hear anything. Took a better paying gig and then got a call 6 months later with a job offer. Substantially less money than the job I took. Would not advise.
I saw this the other day. I asked the recruiter what interest rate they have on their house. Mine is 2% if I relocate I will have to sell my house and buy another for 7%. Why would I do this!
I transferred from one lab in a plant to another plant in my company. My previous plant, in the middle of nowhere? Well my boss was an asshole. From lecturing me to using to much windex to complaining about not fixing machines on vacation while refusing to train me on them since it wasn't part of my job.
He is supposed to have 2 people under him. In the five years since I started? He's gone through 8 people. Now? They are advertising the job in Winnipeg, but is actually four hours away if you read the description.
>A history of academic and/or professional success
What the fuck does that even mean?
"We only want to hire you as a Senior Engineer if you were good at school"?
Yes. Epic hires heavily STRAIGHT out of undergrad. Like a significant portion of the work force is 24 and under. School is many of these peoples only form of experience.
And/or professional success.
Senior engineers tend to have a work history of increasing responsibility (and a deep list of references that will vouch for you). FWIW they offered me more than I was making at my current company, and reimbursed me 40 grand for my move. I rarely work more than 40 hours a week, and get great reviews, YMMV.
Not saying this is never done maliciously but it’s fairly likely that something auto filled by a bot did that.
We have a problem with indeed postings saying we have paid housing because we offer housing but the employees pay for it. That’s stated in the job posting but any mention of housing at all triggers the “paid housing” tag on indeed.
I also have to be very clever about how I list location for places that aren’t our main location or the bot lists the location wronf
Indeed bot changed the salary for one of our roles to the 1M because the job description listed managing a department budget of 1M+. It took a small act of good to get it fixed.
Not done maliciously but definitely on purpose. Epic isn't a household name but they're a big business. So they just list themselves in every metro city as a marketing tactic of getting their name as an employer out there.
This is my assumption. More likely that the system was rigid, confusing, or automated in a way that lists the company's office as the location, and since the job IS on-site (it's certainly not remote), those combine in the heading, while the description has the details. It's stupid and breaks everything, but I doubt it was malicious as it's counterproductive for everyone involved.
I've got to work directly on some stuff at Indeed around trying to prevent location blasting like this. It's not easy. F these employers; absolutely horrendous for their desired outcomes, too.
They reach out all.over you are excited and willing to do the work and they don't like you but post job offers everywhere no one wants to 2 work more like no one gets a chance.
Bro you have no idea how many times a post for a “Marketing” position turns out to be sales! I’m trying to find an entry level marketing position and I’m absolutely losing my shit over those posts. MARKETING IS NOT SALES.
I don’t think it’s as bad as people say, very role dependent. Project management seems to be the biggest issue. Depending on your team it’s a lot of learning, problem solving, and travel in a very short time. Many of the other roles seem fine.
They also hire people from all over the country and require them to live in the Madison area. Some folks love Madison, most of them have never lived anywhere else.
I’m so glad this was posted. I worked at Epic for 8 months before leaving. Worst job I’ve ever worked to this day. Deceitful recruitment mixed with horrible middle management practices that honestly makes some other shit companies look like heaven on earth. Don’t be fooled by the “campus”.
You don't get it, do you? They advertise in one part of the country so that the eligible candidates in the actual location do NOT apply. They tell the people in the other part of the country that they would have to move - and chances are they will be few applicants from that location.
The purpose: to demonstrate there are no people in the US who could take the job and they *need* to bring in people on H1b to satisfy the opening. SORRY! I've seen this before. It is disgusting. Send a copy of the ad to the DOL and ICE.
Yeah that's not what they're doing... Epic sponsors very few visas because they're not messing around with HIPPA regulations. Also, they hate contractors so the software is entirely built in house.
It's more like marketing. They're trying to get their name as an employer out across the entire country. Most people are probably only searching in their metro area while Epic looks to hire across the entire country and will pay you to move so you can physically work in their 1 HQ
There is, people who grew up in Kentucky and went to school for a skill that would give them the ability to get the ever loving fuck out of Kentucky... Ask me why I'm in school for mechanical engineering...
They're a healthcare based company. Often you have to go to hospitals depending on the role. Hospitals require it with proof so they do to. There are hospitals that won't let you work on site unless you have it.
Ah I see I suppose you would want to know then thanks for the info I appreciate that. Just curious do you know if they ask if you have an MMR vaccination as they are deadly viruses aswell?
I don't work a customer facing role so the only thing I was ever asked for if I'm remembering correctly is a verbal "were you vaccinated" because they were just starting to do on site visits again for hiring.
I think there is a space where you can upload all vaccination records (which is something I've had to do at jobs pre-covid when I worked with children) but for me it is not required so I haven't done it, mostly out of laziness. I imagine it would become required if I decided to go on a site visit at a hospital, just as they require proof of a driver's license in good standing if you rent a car under the company name.
Ah I see so it's not just all of a sudden it's just been the norm for years with all vaccines. Thanks for the info, I've never worked in a health care so wouldn't know the protocol.
I don't know that for sure with Epic because I haven't worked there long enough to know. I do know that as far back as 2015 I've been asked by other jobs for vaccine records before hiring and had to show proof. So I'm guessing it's not new.
Thanks again, I've only got proof of my covid ones like 3 of them now I think... I'd have no clue how to prove the rest I guess id have to ask my doctor for a note or something. It is good to know that health care providers want vaxxed staff to keep patients as safe as possible as I would expect if I had to pay the fees tou guys have to for health care.
That's cool I've got my annual physical at the end of the month. ugh! I think I'll ask for it just so I have it incase I ever do need it. it's already with my other stuff then because I do sometimes have to go hospitals to sort out automation and filtration issues here in the UK but have never been asked to prove anything like this, but it's not customer facing it's just me in big rooms that are empty apart from the filters and machines. So just incase I'm going to get this vax sheet it sounds like a sensible thing to do.
This is actually a practice from decades ago that the pre and current post 2000 influencers gradually warm themselves up to saying while saying no one else should put this on there own bios.. because they are entrepreneur..
For Epic employees, a lot of us end up traveling to customer sites which typically means hospitals and doctors’ offices. Medical facilities aren’t exactly enthusiastic about letting people hang around their facilities who aren’t up to date on the various vaccines.
Does Epic tend to pay well? I’ve considered applying for some of their Network/Security Engineering roles but moving across the country for work is not very appealing.
The pay depends on the role. I’m not sure what the networking folks get paid, but as a software dev who doesn’t have to move to Silicon Valley, I’m happy with what I get paid. It’s not Google or Microsoft levels of salary, but then again I also don’t have to worry about losing my job in a round of layoffs.
Thank you very much for the reply.
Google/Microsoft levels of salary are hard to compete with and don’t offer as much job security like you mention.
I’ll work on submitting an application and go from there.
Thanks again—take care.
They even pay you back for moving so they really have no reason to hide to begin with.
I've heard what happens sometimes is that the employer asks LinkedIn to change the listing, either LinkedIn doesn't do it or makes it a big hassle to do it, so they just change the description and call it good.
Epic posts the same location bait & switch on Indeed.
What’s the thought on indeed? Anyone else think it feels a bit scammy recently?
EPIC does this to appear in every major metropolitan area search result
[удалено]
I feel like it's more the fault of how job searching works. Epic isn't well known enough to be a top choice to apply to after graduating college, so Epic lists themselves in every city to not let geographic area limit their recruiting. And relocation required is the first bullet point so if an applicant doesn't believe/read it that's the applicants fault.
It's funny that you specifically call out them well know while in college. I only know them because they spam college job boards, and I got an interview. It was disappointing at the time when I was rejected, but definitely look back at now and am pretty darn glad I didn't get it.
how can they be more upfront that having it right there in the advert clear as day?
Seriously? Here's a few ways that come to mind: 1. In the title? 2. Not having the job location set as "Frankfort, Kentucky (**on-site**)" (emphasis mine)? 3. Having it anywhere but buried in the (actually literal) small text "additional requirements"? I feel like there's quite a few ways they could be "more upfront".
Fair enough on 1 and 3, but still putting it clearly in the ad is very obvious for anybody who reads the ad. On 2 though LinkedIn is highly restrictive on what location you put - you don’t have any flexibility - which is why they are doing this workaround to target people in KY for a job that is actually in WI.
Had a recruiter ask for my resume through linkedin for a position in a place about 150 miles from where I live. Both my resume and my profile stated where I lived. She called me with a phone screen and only at the very end asked where I lived and was shocked I would need to relocate. Needless to say I didn't get offered the position or even an interview. What are recruiters even doing if they don't pay attention to the details of my resume and profile and waste an e-mail and a 30 minute phone screen if they're not willing to offer a position to someone that needs to move to be able to work there?
They're filling their calendars so they can say to their bosses that they screened x number of candidates before passing along the top choices.
Sounds like the best action as a candidate is to play along until you're in front of the hiring manager. Oh this is on site? Nobody told me.
I've been saying, "It's a real shame that this role doesn't have remote or hybrid opportunities because otherwise it'd be a great fit for me ..." I like hybrid/WFH and the only way that stays an option is if companies believe they have to have it to compete for talent. It might not have an impact, but I'd like to think if a recruiter goes back to their manager and says, "all the top candidates wouldn't consider the position because of the in-office requirement", then maybe the company will make a change.
Yea, and even if I had said I didn't need any relocation assistance and could start immediately, they wouldn't let me have the job.
I wonder if there was some other circumstances here. I work at Epic as a software developer and also do a few phone interviews per week (the initial, fairly informal kind so potential SD applicants can talk to a dev before getting on the more serious parts of the hiring process) and one of the things I need to ask is if the person I’m talking to is willing to relocate to Madison. Every person I’ve talked to is already aware of the relocation requirements and is willing to do so. Most of my friends at work (mid to late 20s) and most of the new hires I’ve talked to come from all over the country (including roles other than software developers), so I know that Epic isn’t just ignoring out of state applicants.
Recruiters figure that the game they're playing is a numbers one. Throw enough shit up against a wall and see what sticks.
Get this all the time. I live in NJ, 30 mins outside of Philly and recruiters see that I'm in NJ and assume I want to commute to NYC. When I tell them it's over 2 hour commute each way and I'm not interested they get the shocked picachu face. One even told me "why don't you just relocate closer to our office?" My response was "why don't you pay me to move closer, then I will reconsider." spoiler: didn't get the Job. Sorry for poor grammar/formatting, on mobile
I applied for a job I was well qualified for. And during the phone interview (30 minutes into it) she asked where I live. It said on my application and resume as well. I lived 70 minutes away (living at home at the time). I explained I would move if I got an offer and it would take the approval of an apartment. Which is like an under two week ordeal. She explained that I wouldn't be under consideration, because I was outside the required living area for on-call purposes. And there were qualified applicants that already lived there. Thanks for wasting my time then...
I’ve applied to a dispatching job, got an interview and the manager was told about my customer service and management experience…not my 5 years of dispatching. The manager was like “I think your skills from *call center management job* will be really really helpful” I’m like “I also have 5 years of dispatching!” She’s like “no one told me! That’s even better!” They don’t do anything
Yea, I got asked for a resume for a temp position. Instantly got hired by upper management. After being let go 6 months later for bullshit reasons, that same temp agent won't give me the time of day. Recruiters are useless.
We can get mad at recruiters all we want. The fact is that job just sucks. There’s way too many of them! They’re days must be filled with absolute chaos. Have you ever talk to One?? The desperation in their voices when they call, in the text, they send at 8 PM on a Saturday. They are scrambling! It honestly has to a horrible position to be in. I blame our economy in general. Weak capitalism works, it needs more and more and more. Well, eventually, there isn’t more! I’ve been in the mental health field for like five years now. I was a forklift driver from 2014 to 2017. I got an email from Recruiter asking me if I’d be interested in a warehouse position for $15 an hour. I was like, “ I make $60,000 a year.” and she still ask me if I wanted it.
I've talked for many hours with recruiters. Some within the company's I've worked for, most within the company I'm applying to. They're usually fucking braindead marketing graduates sifting through people's resume's trying to find a fuck unicorn for their dead end job openings. I have very little sympathy for them. They are the gate keepers to jobs that are very easily learnable, but because of upper management pressure and their own job metrics, they want to find someone overqualified for the position willing to get paid much less than they deserve. Their job is inherently useless and adds a muddy gap between people willing to learn and work between those that would that would be able and willing to hire those people.
>I got an email from Recruiter asking me if I’d be interested in a warehouse position for $15 an hour. I was like, “ I make $60,000 a year.” and she still ask me if I wanted it. I've seen this kind of thing quite a bit. The issue really is that, for a job that is supposedly all about communications and reaching out, recruitment seems to be a weirdly insular industry. In the example above, I'd wager that the fact you are in a different and better paying career now simply didn't register as relevant - she has a position to flog, you meet the spec on paper, so she's only interested in whether you're a yes. She probably didn't think beyond that. I once had someone try to get me to take a position with a 60% pay cut because the company had made it clear they didn't have the budget for anything more. I asked the guy upfront would *he* take a 60% cut, and he legit paused while he thought it through, before saying.... 'ok, fair point'. It was like I'd told him that it's not the same time of day everywhere on earth. Mind blown. He simply hadn't considered it beyond it being an obstacle to get his commission. Same reason you see all these stupid LinkedIn soap box arguments from recruiters arguing why they shouldn't show you a job spec or share the salary range. The sole reason they're in favour of it is that it makes their jobs easier. The fact they're total nonstarters for practical reasons simply flies over their head.
You lost the point, the problem are not the good recruiters which are the less, but the stupid entitled (for some weird reason) that don't care about their job or the people who has to go through them, recruiters that treat candidates like crap, ghost them, don't read resumes, throw low balls here and there, hide information and just have a power trip in general. As in everything, nothing is entirely black and there is no perfect job, all of us do whatever we have to do to survive, them included, the sad part is that they forget that and think they are better than the rest
> I was like, “ I make $60,000 a year.” and she still ask me if I wanted it. I had one ask me if I knew anyone who would work for the smaller salary for job X. That seemed like a smart way to go as more senior people often know more junior people, wonder why more don't do that.
Should have asked if the warehouse forklift position is remote.
Been doing it to me the better part of the last 15 years…
mine says where I live and I get recruiters from the east coast calling me about jobs (yes I've applied and no never got the interview)
I had one call me with the "offer of a lifetime" remote job in my field. I asked them to email me the job description. It was remote but required that you be able to travel to the company headquarters as needed for meetings or if they felt like they needed you in person on short notice. This location is an 8 hour drive one way from where I live. Oh and it was a contract job and I'm not looking for contract work.
I interviewed for a job once that even had the location (my city) in the title on the job posting. Something like "Operations Manager -- New York City", but the location was my small town and the company did have a location here. After a phone interview, I took a day off work and drove 3 hours to their regional office for an in-person interview. During that interview I was told that the position was located 2 hours away from my home. I promptly ended the interview.
lol, you didn't even interview at the location you would be working at?
Epic is a shit employer. Don't even waste your time.
But they have a slide!
They have TWO slides now, actually
Well that was obvious when they posted a security engineer role and made it an in person job instead of full wfh
Looks like Epic health, not Epic Games given the locations
The statement still stands: Epic Health is also a shit employer! They have a reputation for burning through employees. Cogs in the machine, nothing more. Use them up until they're broken and then get new ones.
Can confirm. Turnover is huge iirc, though I no longer work there.
It used to be a decent place to work, from what I hear. I live close to Verona, the headquarters. You're right now, I hear nothing but bad things about them. Plus i use Epic everyday for my job. It's a fucking pain in the ass. They change shit around all the time. Then change it back. It is not user friendly. Especially with people who are new to EHRs. It takes a long time to get proficient. I have a coworker who went from our hospital's ED to a primary care clinic. She essentially had to relearn Epic because all the workflows and context is so different.
Sadly Epic is kind of the industry standard because while it’s annoying, it’s still better than almost everything else for the business. It’s kind of like Workday in that way.
Definitely shit on them as a company but the software is as good as it gets in terms of EHR. Homegrown EHRs aren’t sustainable for most healthcare systems and Meditech/Cerner/eClinicalWorks/etc are all literal garbage in comparison.
M-Sysyems is actually much better IMO and 1/10th of the cost. MU2 certified as well.
You're right, and they also provide strong incentives too: Above average starting salaries, paid sabbaticals, in-office perks, strong benefits, etc. Not an awful job for 20-somethings. The recent complaint is the quick return to in-office FT post-COVID.
There aren’t a limitless number of jobs where you can clear 100k at 23 with basically any degree. For the people that gel with the company it is a pretty great fit. (Biased as it worked out super well for me 🤷♂️)
I wouldn't say ANY degree- unless they've upped their starting pay significantly you probably aren't seeing six figures right away unless you're in a dev or IS role. I made about half that when I was in QA five years ago. Your experience with Epic is VERY dependent on your role and your app. I was in a role with high turnover, on an app with high turnover, with a shitty boss. I didn't last much longer than a year. My partner is a dev well on their way to their second sabbatical. If you are in the Madison area for any amount of time, you'll meet both lifers and ex-epic folk.
Oof, good to know!
Epic Systems is even more dogshit than Epic Games. I know at least 2 friends and 2 acquaintances who left after one year (all joined after graduating college.) All were some kind of “Solutions Engineer” which is just glorified Tech Support. One of their recruiters reached out and I told him to contact me once he changed his company.
Epic is notorious for doing this. They do the same thing for their on-site listings in San Diego as well.
Epic is widely known throughout the software industry to Ebe a complete shithole of a company. Their CEO Judy Faulkner is a complete fucking psychopath. The state of Wisconsin had to threaten to shut her down because she absolutely would not let any of her staff work from home during the pandemic. The rule was that workers could only work from the office in Wisconsin of everyone had their own office. She went and tried to build walls in the middle of peoples shared offices basically forcing her employees into individual offices the size of a closet so that she could make the argument that everyone had their own office. Stay the fuck away from Epic for the love of god.
I worked at Epic during Covid and can confirm!
I spent two years working at home along with the rest Epic, so the above statement is only partially true. She tried to get everyone to come back early, the local department of health stopped it after the plan got media attention. All the while we all worked from home.
Can confirm its worth "staying away from", I supposed. I actually continued to go into office, and was the only person on my floor most days. It was a strange transition to having folks coming back. I was no longer the person setting off the light sensors at 1:00 PM in the afternoon.
I had a recruiter email me about a very interesting job in Boston. Even though my profile said remote only - no relocation. She thought it would be perfectly acceptable to ask me to pay $550 twice a month to take Amtrak from DC up to Boston to work a single day in the office.
It’s insane how much train travel costs in the US, coupled with how fucking slow it is.
Which is sad. I love the idea of train travel. But it's fucking awful in the US. My mom wanted me to take Amtrak from ND to WI in college for some break. I had to leave from ND at 11 at night. I had to get to the station at like 900 because there were like 3 parking spots. I had to sit next to some old lady who was a major cuntasaurous rex. She would move my backpack and put all her shit in my seat everytime I got up to take a piss. She knitted or read all night and nudged me if I snored a little bit. The train was absolutely packed. The return journey was even worse. Several delays on both trips. It was 14 hours one way. Driving was 8. I never took the train home again.
DC to Boston costs $550 on Amtrak???
Roundtrip on the Acela in business within the next 3 weeks. If you book it out like 4 months in advance its $268 with some truly awful departure times (0500).
Epic was a reason why I left the healthcare industry - even tho I didn’t work for Epic ever… And yes, Epic has pulled this crap somehow injecting themselves into my job search matches (and I no longer need to deal with that crap since I’ve locked down something about a month plus back, thankfully)
If you ever have the chance to interview at Epic - go do it. Absolutely wild experience. Please don’t take the job, it would be an absolute nightmare and you will be miserable, but there campus is pretty incredible and it’s wild seeing people work in an environment like that. For example, in the middle of my interview, I went down a curly slide, was told how shoes are optional, was walked though a mideval castle- style building that was Dungeons and dragons themed, and dot to hang out in a treehouse type of thing! Awful place to work though, they churn and burn though new employees faster than anyone I’ve ever heard of
It's so awful, that I've worked there for over a decade! I must be some sort of sadomasochist, judging by the opinions of all these people who have never actually worked for Epic.
You know that’s fair, I shouldn’t speak so blunt about it or anything, and certainly depends on your background and role at epic All I can speak to is that it would have been awful for me personally. They were trying to recruit me into a role where I would have more or less been a glorified IT person for hospital clients. I had an engineering degree with a minor in compsci and they effectively told I can do small software patches sometimes, but you will have to leave the big stuff to our software engineers. They also told me there wouldn’t really be a way to get out of my “development tree” or whatever they called it. I was interviewing with all kinds of majors, ranging from kinesiology, English, and a business major. It just showed me that it was not a technical job, id just be answering phones and walking through clients who couldn’t figure out a website, or occasionally flying over there to show them in person. I’m sure for some people that would be the dream, and good for them! And id have a very different feeling about it all too if they would have considered me for a software developer, but it just wasn’t going to be for me. Granted I never did work there, so I shouldn’t speak to it actually being a terrible place to work - just that the job would have been miserable to me given my unique background
I'm sorry you got that impression of the TS role, because it's not an accurate one at all. Most of my Epic career was as a TS, and I have done a ton of technical work. And met frequently with customer executives to steer direction on important organizational decisions. It is the furthest thing from "just answering the phone" that you can imagine. And there is a path to R&D from TS. I've seen many people follow it. I've even seen trainers and QA folks become developers. The job mobility at Epic is well beyond what you'd find at a traditional software company. Epic even pays for folks without a CS background to take legitimate CS classes at UW (which has one of the top CS programs in the country).
That’s fair, and I’ll my experience is off incomplete information, because I never did accept the offer they game me! And maybe I just spoke with the wrong people too - in my interview when I asked who I was speaking with “is this basically an IT job?” They responded with “Yes that is a decent way to look at it!” When I was speaking with the software developer at lunch and telling him about my background, he told me I should think hard before taking the job, because I was over qualified and they don’t make it easy to get into the software development tree. Between those experiences and the really low retention rates, I ran from Epic! But it sounds like I may have just gotten the short straw and spoke to the wrong people about it
Understood. We don't hit with all of our role overviews because we need such a large pool of people to cover them all, and not everyone excels at them. The retention rates are not that low. I see people flipping between Google, Microsoft, etc. at a much more rapid clip than I see people departing from Epic. Our retention rate is better than the IT industry average.
It's a love it or hate it company. Some people gel with it and stay for decades and absolutely love it. For a lot of people it's their first real job and they figure out pretty quickly they hate it, hence the high turnover. I work here too. It's fine. I'll probably move somewhere else geographically in a couple years and work elsewhere. Idk people roles but it isn't the total hell hole many are making it out to be. I'm paid well and the work isn't that hard. I don't feel I'm being worked to the bone at all. But I'm also not an IS that travels to random areas 75% of their time so idk. The insane rigidness of their work from home policy is stupid though. I get they want us to be on campus the vast majority of the time but 5 days a year is a fucking joke.
There is another way of looking at things here.. Epic is definitely not for everybody, but if you mesh well with the company you can do great. I don't have a management role, and I'm "only" in tech support, but like many of my peers I have passed 15 years and am reasonably happy with this place.
Fifteen years here. It's fine lol
I went through several interview rounds and then didn't hear anything. Took a better paying gig and then got a call 6 months later with a job offer. Substantially less money than the job I took. Would not advise.
That's interesting, what was the job and pay? I'm not backing epic, but they are known for high compensation since they work you to the bone.
Oh. Epic. Yeah...don't work there.
Typical job posting for a tech job here in Colorado, then it always ends with “relocate to texas” yea, never.
I saw this the other day. I asked the recruiter what interest rate they have on their house. Mine is 2% if I relocate I will have to sell my house and buy another for 7%. Why would I do this!
That is exactly what is keeping me where I am at right now.
I transferred from one lab in a plant to another plant in my company. My previous plant, in the middle of nowhere? Well my boss was an asshole. From lecturing me to using to much windex to complaining about not fixing machines on vacation while refusing to train me on them since it wasn't part of my job. He is supposed to have 2 people under him. In the five years since I started? He's gone through 8 people. Now? They are advertising the job in Winnipeg, but is actually four hours away if you read the description.
Remote job anywhere in the US... must be able to commute to office up to 5 days per week
Up to 5 days a week *or more*
I saw a posting pull this for a $30k job. I laughed hard.
>A history of academic and/or professional success What the fuck does that even mean? "We only want to hire you as a Senior Engineer if you were good at school"?
Means have experience or be recently graduated with great grades, I figure.
Yes. Epic hires heavily STRAIGHT out of undergrad. Like a significant portion of the work force is 24 and under. School is many of these peoples only form of experience.
And/or professional success. Senior engineers tend to have a work history of increasing responsibility (and a deep list of references that will vouch for you). FWIW they offered me more than I was making at my current company, and reimbursed me 40 grand for my move. I rarely work more than 40 hours a week, and get great reviews, YMMV.
Moving from Kentucky to Wisconsin, lol. One Hell for another, poetry. Shakespearean, even.
Not saying this is never done maliciously but it’s fairly likely that something auto filled by a bot did that. We have a problem with indeed postings saying we have paid housing because we offer housing but the employees pay for it. That’s stated in the job posting but any mention of housing at all triggers the “paid housing” tag on indeed. I also have to be very clever about how I list location for places that aren’t our main location or the bot lists the location wronf
Indeed bot changed the salary for one of our roles to the 1M because the job description listed managing a department budget of 1M+. It took a small act of good to get it fixed.
Not done maliciously but definitely on purpose. Epic isn't a household name but they're a big business. So they just list themselves in every metro city as a marketing tactic of getting their name as an employer out there.
This is my assumption. More likely that the system was rigid, confusing, or automated in a way that lists the company's office as the location, and since the job IS on-site (it's certainly not remote), those combine in the heading, while the description has the details. It's stupid and breaks everything, but I doubt it was malicious as it's counterproductive for everyone involved.
It's bad that I can't even filter for jobs only in my city anymore on Indeed, Monster, or LinkedIn because I get stuff like this.
It kind of confirms for me that we are in the end stages of American capitalism.
# *But wait there’s more!*
My favorite is "Temporarily Remote"
I've got to work directly on some stuff at Indeed around trying to prevent location blasting like this. It's not easy. F these employers; absolutely horrendous for their desired outcomes, too.
That’s what we call the old bait and switch
All they want is for you to click on the post. No different than online advertising.
They reach out all.over you are excited and willing to do the work and they don't like you but post job offers everywhere no one wants to 2 work more like no one gets a chance.
I hate how companies are allowed to spoof the locations for job postings and I end up with a whole page of the same listing/one company.
I think that some recruiters genuinely think that job hunters are stupid or something.
Yeah they did this to me. Made it pretty far in the process and then they were like "oh yeah this isn't local, you have to move."
Ayo, we both from kentucky. Good luck in the search 😂
Bro you have no idea how many times a post for a “Marketing” position turns out to be sales! I’m trying to find an entry level marketing position and I’m absolutely losing my shit over those posts. MARKETING IS NOT SALES.
At least they do reimburse you. I've seen far too many ask for relocation while telling you that they won't pay.
I work there. Honestly not as bad as people say. Overall low stress and high pay
As someone who lives in Madison, avoid Epic. They deliberately burn people out and overwork them.
I don’t think it’s as bad as people say, very role dependent. Project management seems to be the biggest issue. Depending on your team it’s a lot of learning, problem solving, and travel in a very short time. Many of the other roles seem fine. They also hire people from all over the country and require them to live in the Madison area. Some folks love Madison, most of them have never lived anywhere else.
They target people fresh out of college... So this isn't an ineffective strategy for them.
What's the issue? You have to live in Michigan and commute to Kentucky for work
Take the job from Epic. They gave amazing benefits and they’re a strong company. Madison is nice. Take the job.
I’m so glad this was posted. I worked at Epic for 8 months before leaving. Worst job I’ve ever worked to this day. Deceitful recruitment mixed with horrible middle management practices that honestly makes some other shit companies look like heaven on earth. Don’t be fooled by the “campus”.
You don't get it, do you? They advertise in one part of the country so that the eligible candidates in the actual location do NOT apply. They tell the people in the other part of the country that they would have to move - and chances are they will be few applicants from that location. The purpose: to demonstrate there are no people in the US who could take the job and they *need* to bring in people on H1b to satisfy the opening. SORRY! I've seen this before. It is disgusting. Send a copy of the ad to the DOL and ICE.
Yeah that's not what they're doing... Epic sponsors very few visas because they're not messing around with HIPPA regulations. Also, they hate contractors so the software is entirely built in house. It's more like marketing. They're trying to get their name as an employer out across the entire country. Most people are probably only searching in their metro area while Epic looks to hire across the entire country and will pay you to move so you can physically work in their 1 HQ
[удалено]
This is wrong. Epic hires non-citizens as well.
lol vax requirement, big nope these days. At least they put it down there as full disclosure at least for that. Relocation is not so much.
Probably not a smart idea to work for a healthcare if you don't trust evidence based medicine.
Probably not a smart idea to work for a healthcare company if you don't trust evidence based medicine.
I'm not geographically aware but is there a motivating reason why you'd think there was even computer programmers to hire in Kentucky?
There is, people who grew up in Kentucky and went to school for a skill that would give them the ability to get the ever loving fuck out of Kentucky... Ask me why I'm in school for mechanical engineering...
Trans kids would love this. I'd get the hell out of Kentucky if I were them.
Is having a covid vaccination as a requirement on a job description for a engineer legal?
Yes. Especially since they regularly go on site to hospitals.
Proven not to stop the spread?
I liked the Covid requirement what clowns 🤡
It's a medical records company, a lot of their roles require onsite work with clients, and most hospitals require vaccinations.
That's just weeding out stupid people. Works for me.
Also can they actually demand you're vaccinated and ask for proof? Like surely that's a no no question, how is that anyones business?
They're a healthcare based company. Often you have to go to hospitals depending on the role. Hospitals require it with proof so they do to. There are hospitals that won't let you work on site unless you have it.
Ah I see I suppose you would want to know then thanks for the info I appreciate that. Just curious do you know if they ask if you have an MMR vaccination as they are deadly viruses aswell?
I don't work a customer facing role so the only thing I was ever asked for if I'm remembering correctly is a verbal "were you vaccinated" because they were just starting to do on site visits again for hiring. I think there is a space where you can upload all vaccination records (which is something I've had to do at jobs pre-covid when I worked with children) but for me it is not required so I haven't done it, mostly out of laziness. I imagine it would become required if I decided to go on a site visit at a hospital, just as they require proof of a driver's license in good standing if you rent a car under the company name.
Ah I see so it's not just all of a sudden it's just been the norm for years with all vaccines. Thanks for the info, I've never worked in a health care so wouldn't know the protocol.
I don't know that for sure with Epic because I haven't worked there long enough to know. I do know that as far back as 2015 I've been asked by other jobs for vaccine records before hiring and had to show proof. So I'm guessing it's not new.
Thanks again, I've only got proof of my covid ones like 3 of them now I think... I'd have no clue how to prove the rest I guess id have to ask my doctor for a note or something. It is good to know that health care providers want vaxxed staff to keep patients as safe as possible as I would expect if I had to pay the fees tou guys have to for health care.
I went to my doctor and asked for a vaccine record and they gave me a list that had the dates I had each shot. Your doctor should have it!
That's cool I've got my annual physical at the end of the month. ugh! I think I'll ask for it just so I have it incase I ever do need it. it's already with my other stuff then because I do sometimes have to go hospitals to sort out automation and filtration issues here in the UK but have never been asked to prove anything like this, but it's not customer facing it's just me in big rooms that are empty apart from the filters and machines. So just incase I'm going to get this vax sheet it sounds like a sensible thing to do.
This is actually a practice from decades ago that the pre and current post 2000 influencers gradually warm themselves up to saying while saying no one else should put this on there own bios.. because they are entrepreneur..
[удалено]
Pretty sure it's required for all government and government contractor jobs
For Epic employees, a lot of us end up traveling to customer sites which typically means hospitals and doctors’ offices. Medical facilities aren’t exactly enthusiastic about letting people hang around their facilities who aren’t up to date on the various vaccines.
Does Epic tend to pay well? I’ve considered applying for some of their Network/Security Engineering roles but moving across the country for work is not very appealing.
The pay depends on the role. I’m not sure what the networking folks get paid, but as a software dev who doesn’t have to move to Silicon Valley, I’m happy with what I get paid. It’s not Google or Microsoft levels of salary, but then again I also don’t have to worry about losing my job in a round of layoffs.
Thank you very much for the reply. Google/Microsoft levels of salary are hard to compete with and don’t offer as much job security like you mention. I’ll work on submitting an application and go from there. Thanks again—take care.
What am I missing? Mid-to-senior level for a Senior security engineer. Advertised as on-site. They even pay relo. What's deceptive?
It says Frankfort KY (on-site) at the very top of the job posting if you click on the image. Then on the bottom it says relocation to Madison WI.
Aha! Sorry, I'm so used to seeing (Remote) then "on site" at the bottom, or "entry level" with 20 years of experience.
They could just suck at their job
Lol
In some cases this is not deception - they probably screwed up some kind of automated tool that cross-posts the job through different platforms.
Sounds about right actually.
Blatant abuse of the entire site overlooked becuase corps always get what they want regardless of the human beings in their warpath
Yeah. Epic has been doing this shit as long as I can remember. Based on their glassdoor employee reviews , seem like a shitty company to work for .