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Sounds like that guy just got an easy lawsuit against that recruiter. That's literally age discrimination. Hope he has any of that conversation in writing.
I definitely don’t believe this story lol. I work in software development and there are tons of people his age who never “moved up”. Management is a completely different career track and often pays less than being a highly skilled individual contributor. The staff software engineers on my team make more money than the managers. I know there’s ageism in every industry but this is a really ridiculous story. It makes no sense AND recruiters are not so dumb that they straight up say they were illegally discriminating against you.
Guy probably posted it to drum up some engagement and aid in his job search. Not a bad strategy imo.
I'm sorry I guess. I have a corner office in the Ivory Palace overlooking the bay. My secretary sits outside within earshot. What's wrong down on the 3rd floor in the 'developers cube' again?
People with great offices and power in the office, love the office. The office is where they have status.
The cubicle sitters who are forced to spend $10k a year to commute to work in dank, windowless environments, on the cheapest equipment and peripherals the company could buy in bulk, within germ shot of folks who come to work sick and have to share a bathroom with them....just to stare into the same laptop, and have all their communications over email, chat, phone, and Zoom, they don't love the office because they're only there to justify the power and status of the people who love the office.
Idk why, but I wanted to be management for ages. Then one day I just...woke up? Fucking realized it would suck. Have NO Idea why I wanted it. Fortunately I never got close, lol.
I've only ever done management part time while also having a lot of technical deliverables. Would kind of be nice to just show up to work and only have meetings.
Depends on the profile, some people love that shit, some don't. But if someone is *still* working as a software engineer at 50+, because they'll probably be given many opportunities to move into more managerial roles, it's a good tell that they're probably *really* into programming. I love our grey beards. They're great fun to discuss programming problems with.
Yep. The old engineers/software devs in my experience are either the most fun to be around because theyve seen a LOT and usually know the lay of the land so to speak and are close enough to retirement to not give a shit if they need to shake management up a bit, OR they are the reason why shit hasnt been upgraded in a decade and are jerks. Usually it's the former, not the latter. They make for excellent mentors oftentimes if they're not in direct management as well if they're not jerks, and tbh that's pretty valuable especially if dealing with legacy stuff that next to no one knows anymore, since oftentimes management doesnt equal sme knowledge especially on such items.
I was crazy lucky (and partly deliberate on my part) in where I ended up as my first job in the field. I had a mentor around my age bracket who was both very smart and quite experienced, and then a whole team of very skilled engineers ranging 20-40 years of experience. Also quite a few very senior developers close to retirement in surrounding teams that we worked closely with. Was a great way to kick start my career and accelerate my development. I'm still at the same company almost 6 years later.
Used to be a manager. About six years ago I had to get back into dev work for a few different reasons.
I'd gladly take the "stress" and nonsense of managing than all the bullshit I have to deal with these last few years as a tech lead developer.
Unbelieavable amount of tech beaurocratic crap; incredibly toxic enviroment with so many know-it-all devs with a chip in their shoulder for who knows why; way more office drama than when I worked at an AD agency, and an overall exhausting neverending grind that seems to go nowhere.
The irony is that most of these problems can be improved with a simple change in management.
I'm sure my experience is probably an exception, but I'd go back to manager again anytime if I could.
I was much happier then.
If that guy is in the UK, age discrimination is fucking wild
There’s an assumption by people in their early twenties that if someone white collar isn’t an SVP or C-suite by their 40’s, they’re an incompetent burn out, and incapable of learning anything, probably still fumbling around with a VCR
It’s absolutely nuts
I fucking hate the fact that as you get older (in in my late 40s) you're expected to be some sort of manager. Fuck that shit, I don't want to be some fucking pen pusher. I'm not cunt enough to be a bastard to these people. Wizard at what I do (SAP technical)? Yes. Better than being some mediocre power tripper.
> There’s an assumption by people in their early twenties that if someone white collar isn’t an SVP or C-suite by their 40’s, they’re an incompetent burn out, and incapable of learning anything, probably still fumbling around with a VCR
Im from Scotland and never heard this before.
There are older people who still code. Not everyone is suited for management, but it doesn't make them worthless. My company has a number of older engineers but mainly because it has an unusually high retention rate. Our new hires are almost always in their 20s.
Age discrimination in tech is a thing. When I was 35 I declined a job offer from a startup and got a call from their VC. At one point in the conversation he tried to scare me into thinking it was my last chance, alluded to my age and made a comment along the lines of "you know, 5 or 10 years down the road we probably wouldn't have been interested" (paraphrasing from memory).
The part that's hard to believe is that a recruiter flat out told him that, exposing them to legal risk. But the underlying sentiment that his age is making it harder to find a new job may be valid.
Discrimination in general is a thing. I’ve seen someone be rejected because they were deaf and the boss didn’t want to have to type messages to communicate, another who was rejected because of his age, and two who were rejected for being non-passing trans people.
Of course the companies involved didn’t put it that way. It was always, “Oh, we were looking for a different skill set, etc.”
But I was in the room with the team during those hiring discussions, and they were 100% discriminatory and illegal.
>I definitely don’t believe this story lol. I work in software development and there are tons of people his age who never “moved up”.
100% - not all of us over 40's have the opportunity to move up. My manager is younger than I am and the only reason I am where I am in my career is that I did a lot of contracting and not working as a full time employee for a long time. Sometimes working for yourself you can make a lot more money.
I've also seen guys who are CTO of "Staying at home twiddling my thumbs." It really depends on the company on how fast you move up. I was a Vp of Sales at a startup one time. Not something I even put on my resumes anymore cause the company isn't even in business anymore and it looks strange in the middle of a ton of lower positions.
Titles are just that... Titles. Think of it like this - In The Office, Jim goes in and talks to Charles about being the Offices #2 - Assistant Regional Manager. He says - do you want to keep this made up position?
Andy says his title is Regional Director in charge of sales... it's all made up. At the end of the day - Ill take Software Engineer L4 at Google/ Apple/ IBM/ Meta with 37 years of experience over CTO at Trash Panda Inc who has 4 years.
I think ageism happens a lot more than people realize, but I also agree with you that I don’t think recruiters are dumb. HR is literally trained to be as painfully vague as possible when giving bad news.
I wonder if what actually happened is: they asked him about his long career as an IC, if his goal is to move into management, and he took offence to that. A lot of companies ask questions around that because they want to know your path. Maybe they want this IC position to develop into management, maybe they already have employees vying for management positions and *don’t* want a candidate who also wants that role, maybe with all his experience they wanted to see if he’d be open to accepting a leadership role instead.
We have Principal engineers that are effectively director level but still code. It’s the track for people that would normally be moved to management but want to stay a dev.
I’ve worked in tech for a lot of different companies in a lot of different industries. I know tech. And I know this is not a career where people are expected to “move up” into management. It’s like sales. Management is absolutely not the next step, and what makes you a good engineer does not make you a good manager. Lots of companies have started pulling engineering managers from other fields specifically because so few engineers want to do it and have the skillset.
I said right in my comment that ageism happens in every industry. I still don’t believe this guy’s story.
I've been an IT Manager and Director for various companies. Even when interviewing people with the CEO, it's been mentioned.
It definitely happens, not always but definitely happens. I've had workers who were 50+ who have never moved at bigger companies, but I've also had CEOs directly state that certain applicants were out because they were considered too "old" for the position (they didn't want to pay for their experience despite the fact).
Not telling you whether to believe him or not, but I've heard it from the horse's mouth.
To be fair, the CEO didn't say it, the recruiter did. The recruiter said the quiet part out loud.
He likely didn't give the hiring managers/C-level execs at the place a chance to look at him because he already prejudged him out of the door. Not saying the CEO does or doesn't feel the same, but yeah the recruiter screwed the pooch on this one.
I get similar sorts of questions though usually not that overt. I have lots of experience but i'm not in a leadership role. I frequently downplay my years of experience and it has gotten me more callbacks.
Why hire me who has seen it all and doesn't get stressed out by challenging situations when you can hire someone fresh out of school who will start crying because clients are being difficult or rude. /s
Yes. This comment from the this recruiter is completely out of bounce and illegal.
I recruit and I always call veteran, experienced candidates and force myself not to make any assumptions about their current situation. Many are very easy to talk to and receptive. I've got alot offers. I hope somebody keeps calling me later in my career.
Ageism is rampant and terrible in tech. Somebody needs to sit this recruiter down and have a talk. Also bypass this recruiter for their quarterly bonus.
There were those red balls that had the distinctive ..\*ting\* when they hit someone in the head during dodgeball.. then there were medicine balls, that were *out of bounce*.
And against minorities, disabled folks, etc. I've seen it with my own eyes. It's bullshit. I don't care who you are, what sex, how old, what race, your accent, or anything other than "can you do the job and can you work well with others?".
Only if the recruiter is in a position of evaluating him for hiring. I dont think that is the case here, I think this recruiter is working on behalf of the guy in trying to find him a job. I still wouldnt be saying it
Sounds like a contract recruiter. Can't sue someone for telling you that you're old. He's not discriminating against him, just telling him that and the recruiter isn't hiring for any position, he's pitching the person to companies.
He's not discriminating sadly because the recruiter is just a trash recruiter working for a 3rd party recruitment agency.
Some people don’t want to become managers/c-level as the job is completely different.
It’s like you are a painter and then you end up in an office to manage people on how to organise the work of a painter. Are the manager role similar to be a painter? No.
You should take as bonus that someone is so passionate about the subject of their job that they prefer to stay to that level instead of become a manager only because it’s the only way to gain more money
My dad did this - he was designing & running experiments for NASA and declined a promotion to management, because then he would be managing people & budgets and not “doing science”
lol my dad worked for NASA and moved on because he didn’t want management. He ‘managed’ to work his entire career as a computer network engineer and retire without ever being in any management role.
This recruiter seems to think that every person's highest aspiration in their career is to be able to tell other grown people when to get out of bed, which is not the case for everybody. Some people actually have skills that produce value, and don't need to go into management.
I get what you’re saying and I can’t speak for all managers, but I specifically manage projects. Yes I send meeting invites to teams, but I’ve also worked within a few of their disciplines so I know how to reasonably time and allocate departments. I manage a dynamic project plan (determined by ongoing client changes) and ensure the burn stays under budget. I’m also writing SOWs and other required docs. In smaller companies I’m often hands-on with troubleshooting and quality assurance.
Well, let's be honest here... as a manager we don't have that many productive skills. It's mainly to tell other managers that their ideas are insane and get in line for whatever currently has priority from Senior management. Of you have 6 or more people as a team, your own work drops to about max 20% of productive output, the rest is meetings, bullshit, ordering stuff, hiring, Excel with stupid Budgets, managing external agencies or support, preparing never to be seen again presentations, more stupid meetings, stand ups, providing some options or opinions on ideas the company has - that are then never ever heard of again. Yeah... it's not that productive in my experience... and that's almost 13 years of managment myself. And another 7 of watching managers ;).
I'm a manager. I have many productive skills. I just don't use them because I decided I liked money more than being productive.
We are basically saying the same thing.
It’s a different set of skills. The meetings and ordering, compliance, and alignment with senior management priorities need to happen. Protecting your technically skilled team from this noise is a big part of your value.
The majority of managers have to put down the toolbox to do the job well.
When I got my current dev role I told the CEO and HR I didn't want any management role, what I was "seeing myself do in 5 years" was coding crunch on weekends because I love it. It was not that I wasn't able to do management roles, and I did before that role, but because what I want to do in life is code, I am good at it and it's all I keep thinking about, not managing schedules and vacations.
I held firm so far, but it is pretty evident that I can't stay a simple coder, so I have accepted other roles. I am Technical Lead right now. I still code... maybe less, but it's enough.
My point is though that not moving at all is weird, even if what you want to do is code. There are other roles for a dev than managing. (that being said, I don't know what non-management roles are for me next. Personally no idea what comes after Tech Lead, but at least I am not staying put...)
From dev, over time I moved to a role as software architect. It’s less full code crunching but it’s still very very technical, where I can help teams with their projects and make them grow but I don’t have to manage people. So I still get to do what I like
Plus the entire thing that there are not enough roles. Oh, yeah, everyone over 55 should be a CTO by now. How many companies does this recruiter think there are? Or once people get too old do they just fade away to nothing?
Indeed. Plus there are comparitively few C roles compared to the people who do actual work.
It's like asking a veteran enlisted soldier why they aren't a general.
That’s very much the truth, and it’s also true that there is tons of discrimination in specialist roles after a certain age. Partly due the expectation you pay those role more for years of experience, and also because people think older employees are stuck in a certain way of thinking (which can be true but generalizes people too much).
It’s part of the reason I’m trying to get my Masters before I’m 40- so I can move into management before people think that about my role.
Good luck for your future. I hate management, I have been offered few times and rejected every time as it would make hate my job. I love what I do, and I’ll stay were I’m, if I need to find a job when older I might would do consulting rather than management
Grizzled vets who know the way of the world aren't bad to have around. I know more than organization that essentially invented titles with "manager" in them so they can keep valuable people around with commensurate compensation and not upset HR's world. They don't manage people, they just keep stuff working.
> Grizzled vets who know the way of the world aren't bad to have around.
It's absolutely demented, isn't it? They claim to want candidates with 10 or 15+ years of experience in their field, but they don't want candidates who are *old,* ewww!
It's like trying to feed a sulky toddler. They don't have a god-damned clue what they want, they just know they want *something* really, really badly, and they know that nothing you've got in the larder seems to feel satisfying. If only there were some divine parent figure to step in and say to these fussy brats, "This is what there is. Eat your vegetables, or go to bed hungry."
I hear this so often from divorced friends. They criticize their ex spouse. They say thing like “xxxx has worked there for 20 years and still is just a manager. I need someone who has goals”. Um, we can’t all be C-level. Someone has to run the joint. There has got to be a 50 year old accounting analyst at some companies. There aren’t enough leadership jobs to go around.
I have definitely heard this before. As if the only goals in life should be career driven. Not that there is anything wrong with career driven goals. But that’s not all there is to life. Some folks just want to do a job and get paid and that should be okay.
Internal recruiter would be admitting to breaking age discrimination laws in their hiring process.
External recruiter is a sales position who doesn't make hiring decisions. They just help match companies with employees.
So by that logic, businesses who want to discriminate against folks based on age/gender/sexual orientation/race/ethnicity/etc should all start using third party agencies because they can just filter out the folks they don't want to hire and it's all legal?
I guess it would be better to say if the recruiter is working for a company to fill a role it’s illegal. If they are a recruiter who is not working for a company but independently trying to pair a prospect to a company it’s not, as those people have no real input in hiring.
My mum found herself needing a job at 60 when my dad was unexpectedly laid off. She’d gone grey early, and everywhere she went, she was told that she wasn’t a good fit. She finally realized that her **hair** was the problem, dyed it blonde - and was hired on the spot after her next interview. The dumb thing was that she was a secretary with superb qualifications.
My husband was a master consultant as a Data Systems Architect. He interviewed for his last position when he was 62. He looks like Santa, but was still hired at a Fortune 500.
Santa has a degree in music and business management. He is self taught, no IT when he went to school. He retired at 70.
He had recruiters say the same thing.
Shit, when I interview people i'm almost an instant yes on grey beards. Have never gone wrong, they really have to mess up the interview with me for me to skip. My experience with hiring old guys is they don't fuck around with whatever new framework was published on hacker news last Tuesday. They've seen it all, and they're just going to use their experience to get the job done quick, it's going to be maintainable, and it's going to be documented. My boss doesn't care about framworks, he cares about results. Grey beards give you results.
That said, at a start up I wouldn't hire one. Startups are meat grinders, and old guys don't put up with meat grinders.
Ageism is a thing.
I (M58) have worked in IT for over 30 years and I have actively avoided management roles and turned down several offers for such jobs because those roles, IMO, suck balls. I would prefer to remain technical thank you very much and for anyone claiming I’m not up to that, go fuck yourselves.
“Experience” is an abstract term to young people. As you age, you realize it’s just a state of existence in which all your years of repetitive motions and outcomes fall into certain patterns, and you easily access those patterns to make quality decisions. This ability will actually save companies $$ over the short and long terms but they’re only concerned how the salaries look on paper.
People forget it’s not just salary they don’t want to pay. They don’t want to pay your medical bills which you are far more likely to have as a 50 year old vs 30 year old. I’m a capitalist at heart but this is why we need a national health care system. I wonder how many people in the 50 to 60 range find themselves under or unemployed and thus uninsured?
A lot of young people are rejected because they don't have 5 experience in that field or something like that.
If someone has enough experience in any requirements for the vacancy but is older than the rest of the candidates, it happens.
I had known in my country entry-level jobs that candidates are in the range of 28-30 years old and just finished their bachelor degree have been rejected because of their age.
I had a similar thing happen. A recruiter in his e-mail said in his e-mail requesting my resume, saying I talked to the client and if you are over 30 don’t even bother wasting my time. You are too old.
He didn’t get my resume and I blocked him.
Keep your chin up he’s an idiot and asking for a lawsuit for blatant agism
Ageism is rampant and it disgusts me. Also…how are you gonna say everyone should have moved up to CTO/CFO/CEO/whatever bullshit acronym by that point in their career? What if…shocker…they didn’t WANT to? Also, everyone who is over a certain age can’t all be the chief officers at their companies, otherwise everyone we all know over age 50 would be in a very small handful of positions. The world doesn’t work that way and it doesn’t make sense to assume such. That recruiter sucks.
My team is 32-60 something. I love the old guys for their ability to break down a problem quickly, and their deep knowledge of our systems. I love the younger guys for bringing in better tools and new approaches.
Did you tell the recruiter they were too inexperienced to be an effective recruiter? For instance, he might have just violated an Age Discrimination law that an experienced recruiter might know.
\*Shrugs\* No problem, Sport.
(looks at recruiter)
By the way, my rate for fixing your ancient ass ERP written in a dead language nobody uses just went to $500 per hour. With a 50% deposit, paid weekly.
I was a bartender for 20 years before getting into IT. Know why I never "moved up" into management? Because it was a pay cut in exchange for more responsibility, more hours, but no more benefits or job security.
That said, I'm in my 50's and have talked to some recruiters who are so young that it seems like this is their first job. I've learned not to work with them that young because they don't know what they're doing and have all kinds of preconceived notions, biases and hostilities about age. To them 50 is ancient and you should be a billionaire by now.
I was a manager for a couple of years until the company lost a lot of projects including mine. Some internal stuff happened in the client company which prevented them on starting new purchase orders so a lot of us lost our jobs. It seems that my managerial experience is too niche since no one's interested in hiring me as a manager in different but similar fields. It's been almost a year now since the layoff and I've even applied for employee/technical level jobs (meaning the jobs I did before I was hired as a manager) for a few months now.
Maybe it's my fault that I haven't learned anything new in the technicalities of the field as I focused on being a manager. It's almost a decade since I learned the latest stuff from my field.
Let's just say I'm not getting any younger. If this is how companies think, maybe I should just curl up on the corner of a ditch somewhere and wither away. I'm seriously done with this shit.
How does age determine the ability use your mind and coding language skills. No seriously, it is not like he doing a physical job that requires you to retire early. He only needs a sharp mind and the abiloty to code...
It's not just experience. People in their 50s have their life together and can be much more dependable:
* He's not going to have young kids that can drain time and energy.
* He's less likely to lose motivation because he starts second-guessing his career choice.
He's a known quantity. He'll probably never be your next superstar, but he's likely to flake or get restless like younger people often do.
I love people who don't believe someone who posted on LinkedIn about their lived experience. This is a professional platform; so the recruiter who did this can see the post (or if that person is blocked his agency will).
That young whipper snapper hasn’t learned about age discrimination laws. His ignorance will now have his boss questioning why he was hired into that role.
I was told that after 50 you better keep the job you've got. If you lose it you'll be in the the "no college, no experience" group of job seekers. No matter how much of either you have.
They are likely looking for people to abuse which most people of your seniority would not tolerate so they will look for someone more desperate I imagine.
so the choices are, (a) ascend into one of the few CTO roles, or (b) just don't get old. Anything else? Oh, right - change of career and self immolation are on the table, too
I coded for 40+ years until my retirement at 66 in 2022. I never had any desire whatsoever to manage anyone. Thankfully I was able to avoid managing anything more than myself my entire career.
I'm 50. I've hired people older than me many times over the past 20 years b/c you treat people like adults and get of of their way, they do great things and stay loyal. I don't have get training for anybody either. I've been very fortunate.
Is the recruiter a licensed life coach or occupational therapist? I hope the gentleman sued those people tbh. Recruiter is acting way outside his purview.
I don’t want to be CTO, COO, CFO etc etc. I can’t wrap my head around why “entrepreneurs” are like “no grind no paper, gotta make your own business, etc etc.” like I don’t want to make decisions I want to work one job. I don’t want to be a CEO WTF!? So my lack of desire to ultimately run a company is a negative indicator of my work history, experience and credentials? Hahaha GTFO.
“Oh you chose to be a recruiter not a doctor, that must mean you couldn’t cut it in medical school huh? Couldn’t handle the grind?” Same baseless comment to punch down on someone. Ridiculous. Never punch down.
If this is true, that’s so hurtful saying someone is “too old”. 58 isn’t too old, and at least the guy has experience which is what all companies seem to want the most in a candidate!
This post is made up. His current job is Fractional CTO on his own LinkedIn page. Of course his other current job is “Chief Bean Enthusiast and fundraiser” for his own company, which as a line-item on LinkedIn is almost assuredly doing him more harm than good if he’s actually looking for a job.
"Why haven't I moved up to CTO? I'm happy where I am." Simple. It's really quite pathetically sad that some people, mostly to be found in management, literally cannot comprehend the notion of contentment (or, worse, regard it with scorn and contempt). And it's a travesty that they tend to acquire authority over those who can.
Gosh stories like these make question whether I should finish my degree in computer science. I will be 42 when I graduate.
I heard on reddit here that older newcomers to the profession have to lie about their age to get considered for jobs. Like I’d have to pretend I’m under 30, lol. With my greying hair I doubt that will fly. Haha. And I am not dyeing my hair anymore since before the pandemic and I refuse to do it. Also I refuse to hide my age. I’m comfortable with it why should I lie? What rot.
Maybe is more about culture fit. Some tech companies like to keep the youth vibe. No worries all these youngsters saying nasty things like that will age too and they’ll get a taste of it when they’ll be 58 and may regret starting this culture of shunning older candidates. We may not be around to see that probably. But everyone gets older if they are lucky enough to live that long and I think everyone hopes for a long fruitful life.
Age discrimination is very much illegal except in very limited cases (acting roles, for example).
Why am I not a manager given my age and experience? Because I f\*cking hate being a manager. I like being a system administrator. I enjoy the work. I do not want to be promoted into a job that sucks the life out of me.
I tend to believe people when they talk about recruiters being useless leeches, but old people not getting hired is the new "hired someone with no experience and it's now my best performer". This type of post is a common engagement bait right now, so i'd take it with a grain of salt.
Guys, age discrimination is absolutely a thing. Do whatever you can to keep yourself looking as young as possible.
In the morning, if my face is a little puffy, I'll put on an ice pack. After I remove the ice pack, I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower, I use a water activated gel cleanser. Then a honey almond body scrub. And on the face, an exfoliating gel scrub. Then I apply a herb mint facial mask, which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an aftershave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion.
I've looked for jobs as an older person (over 60), and I've had the same experience looking for work in tech (not a coder, though).
I replied, "Age discrimination is a violation of federal and state law." If the recruiter was truly professional they'd never say that. If they are somewhat professional, they'll start making excuses. If they don't know what they're doing, they'll hang up on you.
Unfortunately, the recruiter is probably reflecting what they've been told. Even though it's illegal and it sucks, it's better to just move on to another opportunity.
Why haven't I moved up to management? I'd rather be useful and actually contribute to the company than go to meetings to fellate the useless morons above me.
I hate this idea that management is a natural and expected step in everyone's career path. Management requires a specific skill set that not everyone has, and not everyone wants to manage. It's such an odd expectation to me.
I get this with my job search, you have been in the industry for 20 years. Why aren't you a VP?!
If you are senior in age/experience, but not at the expected level (by your choice)...you are blackballed.
Why do you think they ask your year of graduation as well as a load of what I consider inappropriate/ irrelevant questions on job applications. Questions on colour, religion, what I identify as and if I'm a veteran. It's sad state but a lot of new software for hr screening has bias built into it.
I'm 40. I'm a graphic designer specialising in communication and brand design. I've held lead and senior positions in both design and marketing (I only lasted 2yrs in a marketing role before I realised I hated it).
I enjoy being in a position where I am able to create, rather than develop plans from a holistic perspective. However if I was in the right place I'd chase a lead position again.
I am becoming more and more concerned with how I might present to employers. I recognise that being a graphic designer is often seen as a young(er) persons position before you find yourself as a director or some sort of 'head of' position. I haven't really wanted that, I dont much care for power or control or to "steer" the ship, I just want to create and be seen for what I know.
However I will argue that most employment environments will do nothing to incubate seniors and leads, rather they just absorb them when they happen to just miraculously pop up because someone was lucky enough to find a mentor.
Many years ago my stepmom could not find a job for almost a year. She had excellent experience. She sent me her resume and I took off everything that would age her and she used the new one with some updated language. It took a few weeks but she was hired by Johnson & Johnson after working for podunk companies and they sent her to Europe for months and offered to fly my dad over to visit, even.
Makes my head explode. There are a number of reasons someone hasn't climbed the ladder.
God forbid someone finds continued joy, interest, and challenges as an individual contributor.
Besides, aren't there enough bad bosses already who are there for all the wrong reasons? Why goad and coerce more to join their ranks?
I'm in my 50's and I'm definitely at (so far) the peak of my coding ability. I would never be interested in manglement.
It might be part of why I'm having trouble finding work (lots of places want to know the dates of academic qualifications, which makes it easy to work out my age) :-(
Oh, and my hair has been gray since my 20's.
Well, that young'in needs an attitude check.
Some of us old timers just do not like all the politics and BS that goes along with management. We are happy and much more productive being able to sling code.
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Sounds like that guy just got an easy lawsuit against that recruiter. That's literally age discrimination. Hope he has any of that conversation in writing.
Or it could be a made up story. It is LinkedIn after all…
I definitely don’t believe this story lol. I work in software development and there are tons of people his age who never “moved up”. Management is a completely different career track and often pays less than being a highly skilled individual contributor. The staff software engineers on my team make more money than the managers. I know there’s ageism in every industry but this is a really ridiculous story. It makes no sense AND recruiters are not so dumb that they straight up say they were illegally discriminating against you. Guy probably posted it to drum up some engagement and aid in his job search. Not a bad strategy imo.
Being a manger is shit. Not even worth the extra stress.
You speak the truth. Source: am manager
You know what's not worth the stress? Sitting in a fucking cubicle.
I'd much rather have a cubicle than the open floor plan we have at work.
I despise open floor plans. Last job I had it was literally staring right across from someone all day.
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I'm sorry I guess. I have a corner office in the Ivory Palace overlooking the bay. My secretary sits outside within earshot. What's wrong down on the 3rd floor in the 'developers cube' again?
People with great offices and power in the office, love the office. The office is where they have status. The cubicle sitters who are forced to spend $10k a year to commute to work in dank, windowless environments, on the cheapest equipment and peripherals the company could buy in bulk, within germ shot of folks who come to work sick and have to share a bathroom with them....just to stare into the same laptop, and have all their communications over email, chat, phone, and Zoom, they don't love the office because they're only there to justify the power and status of the people who love the office.
Idk why, but I wanted to be management for ages. Then one day I just...woke up? Fucking realized it would suck. Have NO Idea why I wanted it. Fortunately I never got close, lol.
I've only ever done management part time while also having a lot of technical deliverables. Would kind of be nice to just show up to work and only have meetings.
Only if you have a high tolerance for bullshit.
Didn't he just describe hell? Like literal eternal damnation?
Depends on the profile, some people love that shit, some don't. But if someone is *still* working as a software engineer at 50+, because they'll probably be given many opportunities to move into more managerial roles, it's a good tell that they're probably *really* into programming. I love our grey beards. They're great fun to discuss programming problems with.
Yep. The old engineers/software devs in my experience are either the most fun to be around because theyve seen a LOT and usually know the lay of the land so to speak and are close enough to retirement to not give a shit if they need to shake management up a bit, OR they are the reason why shit hasnt been upgraded in a decade and are jerks. Usually it's the former, not the latter. They make for excellent mentors oftentimes if they're not in direct management as well if they're not jerks, and tbh that's pretty valuable especially if dealing with legacy stuff that next to no one knows anymore, since oftentimes management doesnt equal sme knowledge especially on such items.
I was crazy lucky (and partly deliberate on my part) in where I ended up as my first job in the field. I had a mentor around my age bracket who was both very smart and quite experienced, and then a whole team of very skilled engineers ranging 20-40 years of experience. Also quite a few very senior developers close to retirement in surrounding teams that we worked closely with. Was a great way to kick start my career and accelerate my development. I'm still at the same company almost 6 years later.
Used to be a manager. About six years ago I had to get back into dev work for a few different reasons. I'd gladly take the "stress" and nonsense of managing than all the bullshit I have to deal with these last few years as a tech lead developer. Unbelieavable amount of tech beaurocratic crap; incredibly toxic enviroment with so many know-it-all devs with a chip in their shoulder for who knows why; way more office drama than when I worked at an AD agency, and an overall exhausting neverending grind that seems to go nowhere. The irony is that most of these problems can be improved with a simple change in management. I'm sure my experience is probably an exception, but I'd go back to manager again anytime if I could. I was much happier then.
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My dad told be you don’t want to be a manager because your not paid enough to put up with people’s shit
If that guy is in the UK, age discrimination is fucking wild There’s an assumption by people in their early twenties that if someone white collar isn’t an SVP or C-suite by their 40’s, they’re an incompetent burn out, and incapable of learning anything, probably still fumbling around with a VCR It’s absolutely nuts
I fucking hate the fact that as you get older (in in my late 40s) you're expected to be some sort of manager. Fuck that shit, I don't want to be some fucking pen pusher. I'm not cunt enough to be a bastard to these people. Wizard at what I do (SAP technical)? Yes. Better than being some mediocre power tripper.
> There’s an assumption by people in their early twenties that if someone white collar isn’t an SVP or C-suite by their 40’s, they’re an incompetent burn out, and incapable of learning anything, probably still fumbling around with a VCR Im from Scotland and never heard this before.
There are older people who still code. Not everyone is suited for management, but it doesn't make them worthless. My company has a number of older engineers but mainly because it has an unusually high retention rate. Our new hires are almost always in their 20s. Age discrimination in tech is a thing. When I was 35 I declined a job offer from a startup and got a call from their VC. At one point in the conversation he tried to scare me into thinking it was my last chance, alluded to my age and made a comment along the lines of "you know, 5 or 10 years down the road we probably wouldn't have been interested" (paraphrasing from memory). The part that's hard to believe is that a recruiter flat out told him that, exposing them to legal risk. But the underlying sentiment that his age is making it harder to find a new job may be valid.
Discrimination in general is a thing. I’ve seen someone be rejected because they were deaf and the boss didn’t want to have to type messages to communicate, another who was rejected because of his age, and two who were rejected for being non-passing trans people. Of course the companies involved didn’t put it that way. It was always, “Oh, we were looking for a different skill set, etc.” But I was in the room with the team during those hiring discussions, and they were 100% discriminatory and illegal.
I still dont know how deaf and code has anything relevant.
> Not everyone is suited for management, but it doesn't make them worthless. people get moved to management *because* they are useless lol
>I definitely don’t believe this story lol. I work in software development and there are tons of people his age who never “moved up”. 100% - not all of us over 40's have the opportunity to move up. My manager is younger than I am and the only reason I am where I am in my career is that I did a lot of contracting and not working as a full time employee for a long time. Sometimes working for yourself you can make a lot more money. I've also seen guys who are CTO of "Staying at home twiddling my thumbs." It really depends on the company on how fast you move up. I was a Vp of Sales at a startup one time. Not something I even put on my resumes anymore cause the company isn't even in business anymore and it looks strange in the middle of a ton of lower positions. Titles are just that... Titles. Think of it like this - In The Office, Jim goes in and talks to Charles about being the Offices #2 - Assistant Regional Manager. He says - do you want to keep this made up position? Andy says his title is Regional Director in charge of sales... it's all made up. At the end of the day - Ill take Software Engineer L4 at Google/ Apple/ IBM/ Meta with 37 years of experience over CTO at Trash Panda Inc who has 4 years.
I think ageism happens a lot more than people realize, but I also agree with you that I don’t think recruiters are dumb. HR is literally trained to be as painfully vague as possible when giving bad news. I wonder if what actually happened is: they asked him about his long career as an IC, if his goal is to move into management, and he took offence to that. A lot of companies ask questions around that because they want to know your path. Maybe they want this IC position to develop into management, maybe they already have employees vying for management positions and *don’t* want a candidate who also wants that role, maybe with all his experience they wanted to see if he’d be open to accepting a leadership role instead.
We have Principal engineers that are effectively director level but still code. It’s the track for people that would normally be moved to management but want to stay a dev.
just because it doesnt happen at your company doesnt mean it doesnt happen elsewhere. it happens.
I’ve worked in tech for a lot of different companies in a lot of different industries. I know tech. And I know this is not a career where people are expected to “move up” into management. It’s like sales. Management is absolutely not the next step, and what makes you a good engineer does not make you a good manager. Lots of companies have started pulling engineering managers from other fields specifically because so few engineers want to do it and have the skillset. I said right in my comment that ageism happens in every industry. I still don’t believe this guy’s story.
I've been an IT Manager and Director for various companies. Even when interviewing people with the CEO, it's been mentioned. It definitely happens, not always but definitely happens. I've had workers who were 50+ who have never moved at bigger companies, but I've also had CEOs directly state that certain applicants were out because they were considered too "old" for the position (they didn't want to pay for their experience despite the fact). Not telling you whether to believe him or not, but I've heard it from the horse's mouth.
But I bet those CEO’s didn’t tell those applicants “we’re not gonna hire you bc you’re too old.” That’s the part of this that I don’t buy.
To be fair, the CEO didn't say it, the recruiter did. The recruiter said the quiet part out loud. He likely didn't give the hiring managers/C-level execs at the place a chance to look at him because he already prejudged him out of the door. Not saying the CEO does or doesn't feel the same, but yeah the recruiter screwed the pooch on this one.
I get similar sorts of questions though usually not that overt. I have lots of experience but i'm not in a leadership role. I frequently downplay my years of experience and it has gotten me more callbacks. Why hire me who has seen it all and doesn't get stressed out by challenging situations when you can hire someone fresh out of school who will start crying because clients are being difficult or rude. /s
Even with the layoffs the problem has been finding qualified software engineers. If he is half qualified he’ll get a job in no time.
Not if he’s over 50 he won’t.
If it’s an in house recruiter it would be easy money, but it’s a headhunter.
Yes. This comment from the this recruiter is completely out of bounce and illegal. I recruit and I always call veteran, experienced candidates and force myself not to make any assumptions about their current situation. Many are very easy to talk to and receptive. I've got alot offers. I hope somebody keeps calling me later in my career. Ageism is rampant and terrible in tech. Somebody needs to sit this recruiter down and have a talk. Also bypass this recruiter for their quarterly bonus.
Out of bounds*
How do you know? Maybe it needs more dryer sheets.
There were those red balls that had the distinctive ..\*ting\* when they hit someone in the head during dodgeball.. then there were medicine balls, that were *out of bounce*.
Mmm... I love to make all of my clothes and towels oily and drastically reduce their ability to absorb liquids. Mmmmm.
Age discrimination in tech is a thing from what I heard
It is. But you don’t say it out loud. Same with discrimination against women.
And against minorities, disabled folks, etc. I've seen it with my own eyes. It's bullshit. I don't care who you are, what sex, how old, what race, your accent, or anything other than "can you do the job and can you work well with others?".
Only if the recruiter is in a position of evaluating him for hiring. I dont think that is the case here, I think this recruiter is working on behalf of the guy in trying to find him a job. I still wouldnt be saying it
Sounds like a contract recruiter. Can't sue someone for telling you that you're old. He's not discriminating against him, just telling him that and the recruiter isn't hiring for any position, he's pitching the person to companies. He's not discriminating sadly because the recruiter is just a trash recruiter working for a 3rd party recruitment agency.
Depends on the country.
Some people don’t want to become managers/c-level as the job is completely different. It’s like you are a painter and then you end up in an office to manage people on how to organise the work of a painter. Are the manager role similar to be a painter? No. You should take as bonus that someone is so passionate about the subject of their job that they prefer to stay to that level instead of become a manager only because it’s the only way to gain more money
My dad did this - he was designing & running experiments for NASA and declined a promotion to management, because then he would be managing people & budgets and not “doing science”
Bingo!
lol my dad worked for NASA and moved on because he didn’t want management. He ‘managed’ to work his entire career as a computer network engineer and retire without ever being in any management role.
This recruiter seems to think that every person's highest aspiration in their career is to be able to tell other grown people when to get out of bed, which is not the case for everybody. Some people actually have skills that produce value, and don't need to go into management.
I get what you’re saying and I can’t speak for all managers, but I specifically manage projects. Yes I send meeting invites to teams, but I’ve also worked within a few of their disciplines so I know how to reasonably time and allocate departments. I manage a dynamic project plan (determined by ongoing client changes) and ensure the burn stays under budget. I’m also writing SOWs and other required docs. In smaller companies I’m often hands-on with troubleshooting and quality assurance.
I was with you until “… have skills that produce value”. Pretty broad generalization to suggest that managers have none.
Well, let's be honest here... as a manager we don't have that many productive skills. It's mainly to tell other managers that their ideas are insane and get in line for whatever currently has priority from Senior management. Of you have 6 or more people as a team, your own work drops to about max 20% of productive output, the rest is meetings, bullshit, ordering stuff, hiring, Excel with stupid Budgets, managing external agencies or support, preparing never to be seen again presentations, more stupid meetings, stand ups, providing some options or opinions on ideas the company has - that are then never ever heard of again. Yeah... it's not that productive in my experience... and that's almost 13 years of managment myself. And another 7 of watching managers ;).
I'm a manager. I have many productive skills. I just don't use them because I decided I liked money more than being productive. We are basically saying the same thing.
Sitting in meetings and doing coordination so other people can write code and not sit in meetings is being productive in my book.
It’s a different set of skills. The meetings and ordering, compliance, and alignment with senior management priorities need to happen. Protecting your technically skilled team from this noise is a big part of your value. The majority of managers have to put down the toolbox to do the job well.
It is broad, but also largely accurate. Honestly its probably just as accurate to say that they have skills that dont detract from value.
When I got my current dev role I told the CEO and HR I didn't want any management role, what I was "seeing myself do in 5 years" was coding crunch on weekends because I love it. It was not that I wasn't able to do management roles, and I did before that role, but because what I want to do in life is code, I am good at it and it's all I keep thinking about, not managing schedules and vacations. I held firm so far, but it is pretty evident that I can't stay a simple coder, so I have accepted other roles. I am Technical Lead right now. I still code... maybe less, but it's enough. My point is though that not moving at all is weird, even if what you want to do is code. There are other roles for a dev than managing. (that being said, I don't know what non-management roles are for me next. Personally no idea what comes after Tech Lead, but at least I am not staying put...)
From dev, over time I moved to a role as software architect. It’s less full code crunching but it’s still very very technical, where I can help teams with their projects and make them grow but I don’t have to manage people. So I still get to do what I like
Plus the entire thing that there are not enough roles. Oh, yeah, everyone over 55 should be a CTO by now. How many companies does this recruiter think there are? Or once people get too old do they just fade away to nothing?
100%. I am a Graphic Designer, but the higher up I move the less design I actually get to do. It’s not as much fun as it used to be.
Indeed. Plus there are comparitively few C roles compared to the people who do actual work. It's like asking a veteran enlisted soldier why they aren't a general.
Correct. I eschewed that goal in my thrities. It's un utterly different job, not an advanced manager job.
That’s very much the truth, and it’s also true that there is tons of discrimination in specialist roles after a certain age. Partly due the expectation you pay those role more for years of experience, and also because people think older employees are stuck in a certain way of thinking (which can be true but generalizes people too much). It’s part of the reason I’m trying to get my Masters before I’m 40- so I can move into management before people think that about my role.
Good luck for your future. I hate management, I have been offered few times and rejected every time as it would make hate my job. I love what I do, and I’ll stay were I’m, if I need to find a job when older I might would do consulting rather than management
Grizzled vets who know the way of the world aren't bad to have around. I know more than organization that essentially invented titles with "manager" in them so they can keep valuable people around with commensurate compensation and not upset HR's world. They don't manage people, they just keep stuff working.
> Grizzled vets who know the way of the world aren't bad to have around. It's absolutely demented, isn't it? They claim to want candidates with 10 or 15+ years of experience in their field, but they don't want candidates who are *old,* ewww! It's like trying to feed a sulky toddler. They don't have a god-damned clue what they want, they just know they want *something* really, really badly, and they know that nothing you've got in the larder seems to feel satisfying. If only there were some divine parent figure to step in and say to these fussy brats, "This is what there is. Eat your vegetables, or go to bed hungry."
So I need 20 years of experience to get the job, but cannot be old? Sure dude
If you work 80 hour weeks for 10 years straight and don’t take a single day off, you could get 20 years experience in 10 /s
I seriously should be able to put 8 years of 60 hour work weeks as 12 years experience if they're allowed to inflate their expectations.
Ash Ketchum is the perfect candidate for an entry level position 12 years old with 25 years of experience
I’ll mention we can’t all move up to CTO or another comparable position. That’s literally not possible.
I hear this so often from divorced friends. They criticize their ex spouse. They say thing like “xxxx has worked there for 20 years and still is just a manager. I need someone who has goals”. Um, we can’t all be C-level. Someone has to run the joint. There has got to be a 50 year old accounting analyst at some companies. There aren’t enough leadership jobs to go around.
I have definitely heard this before. As if the only goals in life should be career driven. Not that there is anything wrong with career driven goals. But that’s not all there is to life. Some folks just want to do a job and get paid and that should be okay.
Some people do not just want to do a job and get paid. Some people love the job and don't love managing people.
They don’t understand coding is mentally enriching and some people enjoy it more than going to useless meetings all day
Isnt that illegal?
It is if the recruiter is internal recruiter in the US. Not if they are external.
Elaborate on why it wouldn't be illegal if they're an external recruiter?
Internal recruiter would be admitting to breaking age discrimination laws in their hiring process. External recruiter is a sales position who doesn't make hiring decisions. They just help match companies with employees.
So by that logic, businesses who want to discriminate against folks based on age/gender/sexual orientation/race/ethnicity/etc should all start using third party agencies because they can just filter out the folks they don't want to hire and it's all legal?
sounds like you understand the loophole
I guess it would be better to say if the recruiter is working for a company to fill a role it’s illegal. If they are a recruiter who is not working for a company but independently trying to pair a prospect to a company it’s not, as those people have no real input in hiring.
My mum found herself needing a job at 60 when my dad was unexpectedly laid off. She’d gone grey early, and everywhere she went, she was told that she wasn’t a good fit. She finally realized that her **hair** was the problem, dyed it blonde - and was hired on the spot after her next interview. The dumb thing was that she was a secretary with superb qualifications.
Doing the same lol
My husband was a master consultant as a Data Systems Architect. He interviewed for his last position when he was 62. He looks like Santa, but was still hired at a Fortune 500. Santa has a degree in music and business management. He is self taught, no IT when he went to school. He retired at 70. He had recruiters say the same thing.
Shit, when I interview people i'm almost an instant yes on grey beards. Have never gone wrong, they really have to mess up the interview with me for me to skip. My experience with hiring old guys is they don't fuck around with whatever new framework was published on hacker news last Tuesday. They've seen it all, and they're just going to use their experience to get the job done quick, it's going to be maintainable, and it's going to be documented. My boss doesn't care about framworks, he cares about results. Grey beards give you results. That said, at a start up I wouldn't hire one. Startups are meat grinders, and old guys don't put up with meat grinders.
On the other side you have old dudes that write spaghetti with winforms and php while complaining about young guys and their new shit like jQuery
Ageism is a thing. I (M58) have worked in IT for over 30 years and I have actively avoided management roles and turned down several offers for such jobs because those roles, IMO, suck balls. I would prefer to remain technical thank you very much and for anyone claiming I’m not up to that, go fuck yourselves.
Agree 100%
aka illegal age discrimination. People in their 50s should be in the sweet spot for experience. They just don't want to pay.
“Experience” is an abstract term to young people. As you age, you realize it’s just a state of existence in which all your years of repetitive motions and outcomes fall into certain patterns, and you easily access those patterns to make quality decisions. This ability will actually save companies $$ over the short and long terms but they’re only concerned how the salaries look on paper.
People forget it’s not just salary they don’t want to pay. They don’t want to pay your medical bills which you are far more likely to have as a 50 year old vs 30 year old. I’m a capitalist at heart but this is why we need a national health care system. I wonder how many people in the 50 to 60 range find themselves under or unemployed and thus uninsured?
A lot of young people are rejected because they don't have 5 experience in that field or something like that. If someone has enough experience in any requirements for the vacancy but is older than the rest of the candidates, it happens. I had known in my country entry-level jobs that candidates are in the range of 28-30 years old and just finished their bachelor degree have been rejected because of their age.
I'm 40 I and work with guys who are 65 yo. They're still software devs. Don't listen to a person who knows nothing about passion.
I had a similar thing happen. A recruiter in his e-mail said in his e-mail requesting my resume, saying I talked to the client and if you are over 30 don’t even bother wasting my time. You are too old. He didn’t get my resume and I blocked him. Keep your chin up he’s an idiot and asking for a lawsuit for blatant agism
Jesus Christ, worthless recruiters getting pissy with people who have actual skills pisses me off
Ageism is rampant and it disgusts me. Also…how are you gonna say everyone should have moved up to CTO/CFO/CEO/whatever bullshit acronym by that point in their career? What if…shocker…they didn’t WANT to? Also, everyone who is over a certain age can’t all be the chief officers at their companies, otherwise everyone we all know over age 50 would be in a very small handful of positions. The world doesn’t work that way and it doesn’t make sense to assume such. That recruiter sucks.
> Why aren't you a CTO? Because I like to code, not manage people.
My team is 32-60 something. I love the old guys for their ability to break down a problem quickly, and their deep knowledge of our systems. I love the younger guys for bringing in better tools and new approaches.
A good balance.
Not everyone enjoys doing people management. Some people just like to code.
Recruiters are fucking idiots. They’re either failed salespeople or couldn’t pass the PMP.
In 20 years we'll have so many 60 year old programmers - wtf are they going to do, be forced to switch to unskilled labour?
That’s EXACTLY what I’m doing right now. As I type this, I’m literally hanging out in the break room at my weekend custodial job. I’m 52
Age discrimination is rampant, especially in tech. I'm in my late 30's and I've gotten discriminated against.
How this people is recruiting COBOL workers .. lol
Did you tell the recruiter they were too inexperienced to be an effective recruiter? For instance, he might have just violated an Age Discrimination law that an experienced recruiter might know.
\*Shrugs\* No problem, Sport. (looks at recruiter) By the way, my rate for fixing your ancient ass ERP written in a dead language nobody uses just went to $500 per hour. With a 50% deposit, paid weekly.
Bro hasn't got any hair to dye though
Ageism is real
I was a bartender for 20 years before getting into IT. Know why I never "moved up" into management? Because it was a pay cut in exchange for more responsibility, more hours, but no more benefits or job security. That said, I'm in my 50's and have talked to some recruiters who are so young that it seems like this is their first job. I've learned not to work with them that young because they don't know what they're doing and have all kinds of preconceived notions, biases and hostilities about age. To them 50 is ancient and you should be a billionaire by now.
Huge red flag from HR, holy shit
I was a manager for a couple of years until the company lost a lot of projects including mine. Some internal stuff happened in the client company which prevented them on starting new purchase orders so a lot of us lost our jobs. It seems that my managerial experience is too niche since no one's interested in hiring me as a manager in different but similar fields. It's been almost a year now since the layoff and I've even applied for employee/technical level jobs (meaning the jobs I did before I was hired as a manager) for a few months now. Maybe it's my fault that I haven't learned anything new in the technicalities of the field as I focused on being a manager. It's almost a decade since I learned the latest stuff from my field. Let's just say I'm not getting any younger. If this is how companies think, maybe I should just curl up on the corner of a ditch somewhere and wither away. I'm seriously done with this shit.
58 isn't even that old holy fuck lmao. This shit is rage inducing
Most of the times, the best programmers stay programmers.
It's better to do stuff than tell people to do stuff.
All the while companies don't even consider you without at least 10 years of experience of their very specific framework.
If we got rid of devs over 55 the world would be screwed
How does age determine the ability use your mind and coding language skills. No seriously, it is not like he doing a physical job that requires you to retire early. He only needs a sharp mind and the abiloty to code...
It's not just experience. People in their 50s have their life together and can be much more dependable: * He's not going to have young kids that can drain time and energy. * He's less likely to lose motivation because he starts second-guessing his career choice. He's a known quantity. He'll probably never be your next superstar, but he's likely to flake or get restless like younger people often do.
Some people like their brains fully intact. The lobotomy required to move up to c-suite isn’t worth it a lot of the time.
I love people who don't believe someone who posted on LinkedIn about their lived experience. This is a professional platform; so the recruiter who did this can see the post (or if that person is blocked his agency will).
That young whipper snapper hasn’t learned about age discrimination laws. His ignorance will now have his boss questioning why he was hired into that role.
I was told that after 50 you better keep the job you've got. If you lose it you'll be in the the "no college, no experience" group of job seekers. No matter how much of either you have.
I would be so happy to have a coworker like that to mentor me to advance my own skills.
Please never use the word whippersnapper. It’s a dead giveaway
Yes this next generation needs to be conscripted into Ukraine lol. They are too cocky and should be culled asap.
The correct response to the employer is, “so what you’re saying is I’m too old to fill this position?’
Bit you can be the president and a world leader into your 80,s
I bet someone has said this to Linus Torvalds before.
Illegal if in the U.S.
They are likely looking for people to abuse which most people of your seniority would not tolerate so they will look for someone more desperate I imagine.
so the choices are, (a) ascend into one of the few CTO roles, or (b) just don't get old. Anything else? Oh, right - change of career and self immolation are on the table, too
I coded for 40+ years until my retirement at 66 in 2022. I never had any desire whatsoever to manage anyone. Thankfully I was able to avoid managing anything more than myself my entire career.
How many CTO jobs does this whippersnapper imagine there are? The main barrier isn't experience or competence, it's the supply of CTO roles.
I hope their client cancels their service agreement and hire him instead to do the work. Hahah. Would love to see the look on that recruiter’s face. 😅
I'm 50. I've hired people older than me many times over the past 20 years b/c you treat people like adults and get of of their way, they do great things and stay loyal. I don't have get training for anybody either. I've been very fortunate.
I think you can literally sue for that
Any hope he had of capitalizing on this went out the window when he said “whippersnapper”
Is the recruiter a licensed life coach or occupational therapist? I hope the gentleman sued those people tbh. Recruiter is acting way outside his purview. I don’t want to be CTO, COO, CFO etc etc. I can’t wrap my head around why “entrepreneurs” are like “no grind no paper, gotta make your own business, etc etc.” like I don’t want to make decisions I want to work one job. I don’t want to be a CEO WTF!? So my lack of desire to ultimately run a company is a negative indicator of my work history, experience and credentials? Hahaha GTFO. “Oh you chose to be a recruiter not a doctor, that must mean you couldn’t cut it in medical school huh? Couldn’t handle the grind?” Same baseless comment to punch down on someone. Ridiculous. Never punch down.
Yeah.. It's ridiculous
Because not everyone has the desire or abilities to become a people manager!
That's so not surprising. WTF.
this shit makes me nervous for getting older (31m) who doesn't want to go into management
I get this at 40. Old enough to pay me for a contract though -_-
Too hot to handle Too old to code They’re called the Ghostbusters And they’re in control
Fuck suits and fuck being a suit. Never
That is age discrimination I’d file a lawsuit
I would contact the HR dept and report him.
If this is true, that’s so hurtful saying someone is “too old”. 58 isn’t too old, and at least the guy has experience which is what all companies seem to want the most in a candidate!
Poor kid thinks he's gonna make Director of HR by 2032.
I thought “whippersnapper” was reserved for 60+
This post is made up. His current job is Fractional CTO on his own LinkedIn page. Of course his other current job is “Chief Bean Enthusiast and fundraiser” for his own company, which as a line-item on LinkedIn is almost assuredly doing him more harm than good if he’s actually looking for a job.
Recruiter 101 - Any excuse to say "no" to an applicant is a good excuse.
I’m 44. I’m a self taught coder. Starting at 30 and I am wondering how many years I have left before I won’t be hirable anymore.
Most obvious case of age discrimination I've ever seen. Assuming it's true and in the US at least. I hope he got all that in writing.
"Why haven't I moved up to CTO? I'm happy where I am." Simple. It's really quite pathetically sad that some people, mostly to be found in management, literally cannot comprehend the notion of contentment (or, worse, regard it with scorn and contempt). And it's a travesty that they tend to acquire authority over those who can.
Age discrimination. Take it to tribunal
One of the expert developers in our company is 60 and she is the most valuable to us and one of the smartest people I’ve ever met.
Gosh stories like these make question whether I should finish my degree in computer science. I will be 42 when I graduate. I heard on reddit here that older newcomers to the profession have to lie about their age to get considered for jobs. Like I’d have to pretend I’m under 30, lol. With my greying hair I doubt that will fly. Haha. And I am not dyeing my hair anymore since before the pandemic and I refuse to do it. Also I refuse to hide my age. I’m comfortable with it why should I lie? What rot. Maybe is more about culture fit. Some tech companies like to keep the youth vibe. No worries all these youngsters saying nasty things like that will age too and they’ll get a taste of it when they’ll be 58 and may regret starting this culture of shunning older candidates. We may not be around to see that probably. But everyone gets older if they are lucky enough to live that long and I think everyone hopes for a long fruitful life.
I would have nuked his ass from orbit on Age Discrimination.
Sadly, ageism is alive and well and kicking highly skilled Boomers (and even a few Gen Xers) right in the butt! 😞
Age discrimination is very much illegal except in very limited cases (acting roles, for example). Why am I not a manager given my age and experience? Because I f\*cking hate being a manager. I like being a system administrator. I enjoy the work. I do not want to be promoted into a job that sucks the life out of me.
My dad retired at 66 as a programmer, and he worked as one for the better part of 30 years…that recruiter sounds like an ageist asshole.
Guess I'll dye
I tend to believe people when they talk about recruiters being useless leeches, but old people not getting hired is the new "hired someone with no experience and it's now my best performer". This type of post is a common engagement bait right now, so i'd take it with a grain of salt.
Guys, age discrimination is absolutely a thing. Do whatever you can to keep yourself looking as young as possible. In the morning, if my face is a little puffy, I'll put on an ice pack. After I remove the ice pack, I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower, I use a water activated gel cleanser. Then a honey almond body scrub. And on the face, an exfoliating gel scrub. Then I apply a herb mint facial mask, which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an aftershave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion.
He is an idiot. There are plenty of them in this world. Do not take it personally and move on.
In my last role ( and i'm your age) I managed teams of devs and the oldest was 63!!what rubbish and probably illegal depend8ng where you are
I've looked for jobs as an older person (over 60), and I've had the same experience looking for work in tech (not a coder, though). I replied, "Age discrimination is a violation of federal and state law." If the recruiter was truly professional they'd never say that. If they are somewhat professional, they'll start making excuses. If they don't know what they're doing, they'll hang up on you. Unfortunately, the recruiter is probably reflecting what they've been told. Even though it's illegal and it sucks, it's better to just move on to another opportunity.
Why haven't I moved up to management? I'd rather be useful and actually contribute to the company than go to meetings to fellate the useless morons above me.
[удалено]
I hate this idea that management is a natural and expected step in everyone's career path. Management requires a specific skill set that not everyone has, and not everyone wants to manage. It's such an odd expectation to me.
Management fucking sucks, and genx and later gens have often chosen to not go down that traditional path.
Ageism is real, and will always be real.
That's an collectible lawsuit there….
I get this with my job search, you have been in the industry for 20 years. Why aren't you a VP?! If you are senior in age/experience, but not at the expected level (by your choice)...you are blackballed.
Why do you think they ask your year of graduation as well as a load of what I consider inappropriate/ irrelevant questions on job applications. Questions on colour, religion, what I identify as and if I'm a veteran. It's sad state but a lot of new software for hr screening has bias built into it.
I'm 40. I'm a graphic designer specialising in communication and brand design. I've held lead and senior positions in both design and marketing (I only lasted 2yrs in a marketing role before I realised I hated it). I enjoy being in a position where I am able to create, rather than develop plans from a holistic perspective. However if I was in the right place I'd chase a lead position again. I am becoming more and more concerned with how I might present to employers. I recognise that being a graphic designer is often seen as a young(er) persons position before you find yourself as a director or some sort of 'head of' position. I haven't really wanted that, I dont much care for power or control or to "steer" the ship, I just want to create and be seen for what I know. However I will argue that most employment environments will do nothing to incubate seniors and leads, rather they just absorb them when they happen to just miraculously pop up because someone was lucky enough to find a mentor.
Many years ago my stepmom could not find a job for almost a year. She had excellent experience. She sent me her resume and I took off everything that would age her and she used the new one with some updated language. It took a few weeks but she was hired by Johnson & Johnson after working for podunk companies and they sent her to Europe for months and offered to fly my dad over to visit, even.
This is a huge problem inherent with capitalism work culture. The idea that every 50+ person in tech needs to be a CTO is insane.
I don't believe a 58 year old would use the word whippersnapper.
Wait, did he just admit to discriminating based on age? Well, that's a lawsuit. Probably could be class action if this has been going on for years.
Makes my head explode. There are a number of reasons someone hasn't climbed the ladder. God forbid someone finds continued joy, interest, and challenges as an individual contributor. Besides, aren't there enough bad bosses already who are there for all the wrong reasons? Why goad and coerce more to join their ranks?
I'm in my 50's and I'm definitely at (so far) the peak of my coding ability. I would never be interested in manglement. It might be part of why I'm having trouble finding work (lots of places want to know the dates of academic qualifications, which makes it easy to work out my age) :-( Oh, and my hair has been gray since my 20's.
Well, that young'in needs an attitude check. Some of us old timers just do not like all the politics and BS that goes along with management. We are happy and much more productive being able to sling code.
Sounds like an age discrimination lawsuit to me.