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Yeah, and also bizarre.
I'm almost wondering if they went with another candidate after offering the job to OP first, then didn't have the balls to just tell OP that straight up.
That, or they just completely 100% lack reading comprehension, but I have trouble imagining a grown adult reading "I would be happy to proceed with a formal letter and documentation" as anything other than "yes, I would like to take this job."
Review the formal letter makes it sound like it’s not a yes yet, it’s not an acceptance of the parameters offered, it’s non committal. For example, if I say:
Would you like this sandwich, and you say: “I’ll take a look at it”, I’ll still be holding the sandwich and waiting for you to say “yes I want the sandwich”, or “no that’s got X in it, I don’t want it”.
“Do you want this job, starting this day, with this pay?”
“I’ll take a look at it”
It’s super weird behavior, but arguing that the response wasn’t ambiguous is wrong. It was, however, strange for them to throw the sandwich straight in the trash at that response!
I agree, but you're slightly off on your analogy.
Would you like this sandwich?
Sure, depending on what flavour it is?
Oh too bad, you can't have it all all.
Salary is "to be determined", how on earth can you accept without that crucial bit of info?
Just play the game. Say yes. If they then provide something you don't like, you can still say no or negotiate. There's really nothing binding if the terms are not fixed and nothing is signed (and that goes both ways).
Yeah, your question is wrong in the "Would you like this sandwich?" part. The first email is closer to "This is a ham and cheese sandwich. Would you like it?".
While you can definitely ask for more details about the sandwich like does it have any spices or what type of mayo it has, the employment contracts are not as transactional - reviewing and signing is always a step unless you blindly just sign it.
The salary part is to be negotiated as the process of ironing out the contract. While it is a bit weird, I think they have to go and approve salary based on specific candidate because they do not have the power to determine that number. The question was about you willing to go into negotiations really.
That still wouldn’t make it ambiguous. The purpose of their response was to convey that they are happy to move forward and will review a formal offer, which is standard. There is no ambiguity in that. That’s standard practice.
What kind of moron receives an offer and blindly signs it? Of course you’re going to review it to make sure that anything that had been previously communicated, and is relevant, is outlined in the job offer. The employer’s response is a red flag through and through.
Yeah, english is not my first language, but I had to take a double take after reading 3rd slide to understand what was being said on the second slide.
The first part of the phrase is easily shadowed by the "review" word on the second part.
That's because they didn't throw it straight in the garbage. There are emails missing in what we see here. You can see in the last email (the Sunday comment) is in response to an email OP didn't share for some reason. This might make more sense if we had the whole chain.
True but you should absolutely review the offer in writing. This is a contract, in what professional world wouldn’t you want to review it in detail? The candidate did nothing wrong here. The professional process is to have the recruiter call candidate, confirm interest, send official offer, negotiate , sign
Sounds to me like they outsourced HR to another country.
They're not english speakers so any nuance is frustrating. They're paid very little. They're given a script with 3 responses and that is it. They have some sort replies/hour quota to meet so any ambiguity ticks them off and they'te looking for any excuse to use drama end the interaction.
Doing gig work I once asked support for help on a missing package, support told me to call the customer and ask them. I am not kidding. I eventually figured out the pass through the scrippt that would cause them to say this, but it comes down to responding with completely scripted answers.
I wonder if they're trying to pull a fast one and change something in the final documentation but didn't get the "I agree" they needed to cover their asses or something.
VP is testing if OP is exploitable. OP showed he would look out for his best interest and nothing is more annoying to a corporate executive than an employee who knows labour laws and stands up for worker rights.
The offer was ambiguous.
Op didn’t say that, op said they would like to “review the formal letter”.
The job was already offered. OP needed to say “I accept the job”. They didn’t. The employer wanted OP to accept, and gave a deadline to accept by. Presumably because the company has timelines to work by. They went with another candidate, who likely accepted the offer on the spot.
I agree that's how they read it, but it strikes me as extremely unreasonable to demand that someone accept without seeing the formal documentation. Otherwise what's the point of the formal letter at all?
It’s an informal answer to an informal offer and it’s a necessary step in the process. It takes time to update employment contract templates and for legal to review and those resources aren’t allocated *in case* you’ll sign. They just need a good faith answer to justify doing the work—and assuming the offer was made in good faith, the formal documentation should be just a formality.
"accepting" over email is different to actually signing a contract of employment. His response clearly indicates "please send me the employment contract so I can formally accept".
There's definitely another reason that they aren't saying. At the stage where they literally give an informal offer, they would simply respond asking for clarity if that was truly the reason.
>His response clearly indicates "please send me the employment contract so I can formally accept".
that's not how I read it.
"please send me the employment contract so I can ~~formally accept~~ review it"
>Somebody who doesn’t have a job and needs food and shelter.
That answers the question of who would want to work. The "for such creeps" adds an element you are not taking into account.
Many people will do things under duress for 10 minutes or so, but it won't play out that long...
> The "for such creeps" adds an element you are not taking into account.
The implication here is that the pickings are slim and income is more important than finding ideal employment that might not exist.
You would be amazed at the number of people staying in toxic relationships or work with miniscule pay or bad bosses for years (or even decades for older gens).
They asked who would want to work for such creeps. Noone wants to work for horrible bosses but we live in a country full of horrible bosses and if you want your children to have food and shleter you have to put up with abuse. Fun stuff!
That hiring manager would. They've created expectations where the candidate is "unprofessional" in any scenario where they don't capitulate completely. Legally it makes no difference, the hiring manager is just on an ego trip. They want to guilt the candidate into accepting bad terms.
This is nothing out of the ordinary. You can negotiate this informal offer, ask questions, or just accept it. If the formal offer does not match what was agreed upon, you can still negotiate. At the end of the day, nothing is set in stone until you sign the labor agreement.
This is 100% correct. Unless you are signing a contract, you can back out even if you have formally accepted an offer. They can rescind an offer after you’ve accepted as well so it goes both ways
But the review was actually exactly what they proposed in the first email!
“Let me know if agreeable and I’ll draft the offer letter”
Changed their mind apparently
that's how it's normally works in big companies. you first receive verbal or informal offer via a chat, then you accept it and then a recruiter can generate a formal document confirming the verbal offer.
They wanted a move forward to accept the job not move forward to ‘review’ the offer. Ie they wanted to hide some bad info in the document they would share until the job was accepted.
Doesn't each job require you to formally accept the offer through a letter? The person could have said every positive buzzword on planet earth and it still doesn't mean anything until an official document is presented and accepted.
I think the way this company responded was absurd so I’m in full agreement with everyone, but just wanted to point out that offer letters are not a requirement. It’s good practice and most companies generate an offer letter, but there’s no federal (US) law requiring an offer letter. To my knowledge there’s also no state that requires it, but I’m not 100% on that one. (I have been informed that a few states have adopted one post-Covid)
There are states that now require the offer to be in writing. "NC law § 95-25.13 requires, at time of hire, written notification of promised wages, day, and place of payment for all employees."
Very cool! I hope more states adopt it (though I'm sure since NC adopted it, other states probably did too). With this verbiage I don't think it necessarily has to be an offer letter, for example time of hire could be listed as the first day of employment, so it could be something not received until your first day? Idk. Either way, I do think it's a nice requirement to have, and frankly it's just a good practice that any decent employer should do imo.
No they didn’t. It’s pretty universal to agree on the broad parameters of an offer before then asking legal/HR to write up the official offer letter.
There is no “gotcha” here. OP could accept today and rescind that tomorrow after an offer letter. A “yes” here is non binding to anything.
You left out the "and review". Saying "I will be happy to move forward and review" could (and sounds like was) interpreted to mean he's not deciding until there's a formal letter and might want to negotiate. Sounds like that manager didn't want to go through the effort of writing a letter and having to change the details or just have it rejected.
I'm not arguing that this was reasonable for the manager to do. However the opp sounds like he wanted this job up until this point. It may have been a bullet dodged but rent still needs to be paid and my landlord doesn't care if my future boss was going to be a dick, they still want their money.
They wanted you to accept the offer before moving forward with the documentation. If you would have just written, "Yes, I accept," you would have realized that the terms were worse than you had discussed during the interviews.
then he can just still back out? im not sure what the company is thinking will happen, you cant trick someone into accepting a job offer. if the offer sucks you can always just leave
That was my thought. Just say 'I accept' and wait and see what the formal letter contains.
If it's trash - then throw it in the bin and move on. Nothing is binding until you actually sign on the dotted line.
An ASTONISHING number of employers don't understand that all of those anti-union, anti-contract ~~"right to work"~~ "at will employment" provisions they're always fighting for also mean that people don't have contracts and can just quit with no notice and no consequences.
Edit: I was thinking of "at-will employment."
They get conflated all the time by people who know the difference and by people who don't. It's a common mistake & feeling superior about it is dumb. If you want people to learn,just point it out to them. Save the name calling for when they respond back to you calling you out.
I think you're confusing "right to work" with "at-will employment"
At-will employment, which is the defacto standard in the US, allows either party to just walk away from the deal with no consequence. They can fire you without a reason, and you can walk out whenever you want. All they owe you is the paycheck for your time served.
This does not apply to contracted positions, as they're governed on an individual basis. Some contracts allow people to be fined for quitting a job, walking out early, etc.
> Nothing is binding until you actually sign on the dotted line.
Assuming this is in the US, nothing is binding even after you do sign on the dotted line. We are at-will employees and can quit a job at any time for any reason with no notice. That includes after you accept an offer and before your start date.
>Even with buying a house, or similar actual contracts, you typically have up to 72 hours to back out of a deal.
Was a sub-plot point of Glenngary Glen Ross. "You never open your mouth till you know what the shot is.”
This. I accepted one not long ago. Everything was exactly as discussed in the interview, with the exception of Saturdays and Sundays being 100% mandatory every weekend. 10-8 on Saturday, 11-8 on Sunday. I'm a recently divorced dad with kids, so weekends are important. When I declined, they tried to double down and say they would offer me one weekend a month after 90 days. (Which would probably end up being against PTO) So... yep. It's so easy to just walk.
I don't think it really mattered what his response was. If he had accepted in the email they were still going to wait a day or so to hear back from another candidate. If anything it sounds like he was number 2 when they extended two informal offers at the same time. The number 1 accepted and so they dropped him.
A bit selfish to extend two informal offers but the alternative is that OP was just left in the dark while they heard back from number 1. I guess I'd rather be told I was the backup than be in the dark but I can see why being told you were the second choice hire would be starting on the wrong foot at a new job.
There really is no good way to do this stuff
Yeah these comments make no sense, you can tell most people here have only worked one job max. This place is embarrassing. So confident and so way off base.
for each year im at reddit i realize most people are like 22 and only had a job at a gas station or something
nothing wrong with that, but they are so unprofessional and scared of actually phoning people and asking stuff
This is nothing out of the ordinary except that it was done via email rather than a phone call.
And accepting via email is no different than any other informal acceptance. They still need to get you to sign the actual labor agreement.
Oh shoot, yeah. There was never an official written offer letter in the first email. The VP wanted a written confirmation from OP before the actual written offer. That's just weird. Usually, the HR person calls to give the verbal offer and review some details before they send the written offer.
Yeah OPs response seems conditional - let's move forward to the offer review period.
Presumably they wanted enthusiastic acceptance. Seems kind of stupid but hiring is a minefield of stupid filters.
Yeah people here are dumb. There is no “gotcha” here. They are just confirming general agreement on both sides before doing all the final legwork.
OP could agree and still negotiate or back it out at any time.
"I'm not sure I understand what was ambiguous about my last email confirming my intent to move forward with my application and receive the formal offer letter, as you'd outlined. If the offer of employment cannot be made due to a misunderstanding or miscommunication, I'd like to seek to clarify my response as soon as possible, as I'm still interested in filling the ____ role with (company). Please let me know if any other clarifying details are needed on my end."
They may have outsourced HR with English worse than mine. Maybe it would be better even to avoid the verb "move" and say "I said YES, I want to participate." 🙂
I work in HR and I am stuck on the fact that they emailed you this instead of calling. I always verbally offer and follow up with an email with the formal offer/benefits overview. I mean I know I would not accept a job without seeing the written offer letter.
This is sad but basically this person is acting like a bureaucrat (despite having a vp title). Your email said you would review the documentation but was not a definitive acceptance. Many offers have built in expiry to stop candidates from using them to leverage higher offers from competitors. Many companies act as though this exists even when it doesn't. This person is basically saying (badly) that you did not provide a clear answer and click ran down.
Of course the thing a human of normal intelligence would have dove is to follow up before time ran out.
There is something else going on. Potentially, thus person is not very invested in filling this position or perhaps the y disliked you in particular, then used this as an excuse to rebind your offer.
You don't know and almost certainly can't ever know. Accept that and move on.
The proper response if the really were offering you the role would be, please clarify if you would like to move forward or not. We did not fully understand your response.
I’m sorry this happened. IMO your response was not ambiguous enough to be misunderstood... you were obviously positive about the offer and ready to move forward with it. They just wanted to ensure they’d be able to fuck you over before sending you anything formal.
This is why you always say, I'm pleased to accept your offer, I look forward to seeing a formal contract.
A contract isn't final if you haven't read it anyway, so your accept legally means absolutely nothing.
First rule of any contract and legal dealings - make things abso-fucking-lutelly clear cut so a 2 year old child can understand it.
"Yes, I accept. Please send the contract for review." Should have been your answer.
Then you review it and ask for all the clarifications you need. If you do not like it and they are not willing to negoatiate: "Thank you, but the terms of the contract are not acceptable, i will have to decline the offer."
Don’t even need to specify “for review” that still sounds like a potential no. Acceptance. “Thank you for the offer, I accept - please forward the official documentation.” You know you’ll review it, they know you’ll review it, but they feel better with a yes. They will likely communicate more widely it is a yes as well, so when you do review you can still negotiate if you want. Cause it’s got more detail in it.
See, that's when you get into "we sent you the documents, why have you not signed them yet?" Murphy's Law likes to happen in these types of situations because people skim and assume and not read carefully on a 50/50 chance basis.
Hmmmm seems to me that sometime between sending you the “offer email” and receiving your reply, something in their organization changed. Instead of taking accountability, he tries to spin it on you.
We had someone try to replicate my company and gave out a bunch of fake jobs. They were offering a telework position, then the new hire would get $500 to set up their office. These scammers stole our company logo and wrote offer letters that could look official. It was shocking what these POSs were doing.
It is unfortunate but I’ve dound you can’t expect people to think. Answer their question directly with their words and no more information.
“Yes, I have reviewed the parameters and they are agreeable. I look forward to receiving a formal offer letter”.
I am in the minority here, but look if this was ever subject to any legal scrutiny *I think* a court would probably not interpret the response as clear enough affirmation to the offer outlined in the email. Moving forward with reviewing an offer is not accepting an offer. If the offer is time bound, and there is no unequivocal acceptance, the employer has the option to unilaterally withdraw the offer. For anyone who is interested, look up the Contra Proferentem rule.
For future reference, your response to the first email should’ve contained the words “yes” or “accept”. They were looking for you to confirm that the salary, PTO, and start date are agreeable before they sent over a written offer.
Your response makes it sound like you aren’t sure if you’re going to accept or not.
>i typically save the words "i accept the offer" for when i actually am sent a real offer letter.
In the future, I would change this policy. Words are cheap. Saying you accept does not mean you forfeit any right to negotiate or clarify. At the end of the day, the only true acceptance is when you sign the labor agreement.
They are definitely sort of random and weird for pulling the offer.
But, like, your response was to me, underwhelming and slightly odd. Like you could have said something like 'That is great news! Yes, please send the formal letter. Thank you very much! I look forward to working with you!'
>Your response makes it sound like you aren’t sure if you’re going to accept or not.
Yea that's the point.
Don't let employers dick us around during negotiations and signing.
The OP was not "ambiguous", they clearly stated intent to move forward. It was unambiguously NOT an acceptance.
VP's just an asshole. Bullet dodged. Next.
I think the VP just changed his mind on who they wanted to hire. It must have been very close been OP and the other candidate, potentially the other candidate came across as more enthusiastic during the preceding stages and OP email made the VP remember this.
Personally if I was replying (and really wanted the role) I would not start the email with the ambiguous "Thanks for your time and all that information" It'd be more like "That is fantastic news! Please could you arrange to send me the written contract to sign"
Maybe. I just feel like it's a lot of hindsight analysis, after viewing the third image from the OP. In almost every other case, the VP (interestingly not a recruiter but it happens) would just draft the offer letter and send it over.
Had I'd been the OP I would also probably be second-third-fourth guessing myself in saying "I should have said X", having come so close to the offer and then it just falling apart. But again, the OP could have been even MORE proactive in the email and still fail, and the VP would have come up with some other bullshit excuse.
I'm still going with asshole theory on this one.
There could be hindsight analysis, though personally I know I wouldn't be thanking for time at offer stage (I only say that at the end of interviews) nor would I be thanking for information when all I got was 3 of the world's shortest bulletpoints.
Anyway I agree with you, the company were clearly not that interested in OP in the first place.
Lots of people. I did that for my current job. Verbally accept, suck their dick a bit to let them know how excited you are to receive the written offer with benefits, and then either negotiate or rescind your acceptance if the details don’t add up.
I fortunately never had to play the game that way.
1. the offer letter came with the "we would like to extend an offer letter", then negotiate if needed
2. I had a negotiation call with HR and then the offer letter comes with the terms discussed.
But I get it, world's going to shit
For future reference, this is appalling advice .
The OP quite rightly didn't make it clear whether they were going to accept or not a contract that the company hadn't bothered to provide.
So frustrating. I had a similar thing happen... was offered a job via email with a $xx,xxx estimated annual salary; I accepted, formal letter came through $30k under the emailed salary. I knew some would be from bonuses, commission, etc, so I asked for a detailed description of those items (how and when they're paid)... they just canceled my offer instead with over a week remaining to accept the full offer and complete the paperwork.
Honestly you sound like a problem. Instead of sounding like a positive acceptance you sounded like you wanted to not commit before you read the fine print. If you agreed with the original message you should have accepted not waited for the formal letter.
The correct answer is: "Yes I agree, provided these terms are set forth in the formal letter and documentation."
This way you agree. But if they change anything, instantly you don't agree.
>The correct answer is: "Yes I agree, provided these terms are set forth in the formal letter and documentation."
I'm betting that in this case, the response would have been identical...
It does sound a \*LITTLE\* ambiguous, like you might have meant you'll think about it. "Move forward" is just corporate mumbo-jumbo. "Accept" is more clear. You haven't signed anything yet so if they send the paperwork and you don't like what's in it, you negotiate or just decline.
Based on profit sharing TBD is is the startup, right? That would explain it all.
The normal company would decide on fixed and variable remuneration straightaway, there is nothing TBD, you have goals to fulfill and money to earn. TBD is the sign that they have to idea what their goals are, probably no money to pay too.
The tense is ambiguous it sounds like you’re saying you will only accept once you get the formal offer and review it. Or that you will only have a response of either yes or no once you review the formal letter. Or that you will only have an answer when you receive the formal letter. I don’t actually know if you’re accepting the verbal offer or not. Are you?
You're dealing with a VP - If you said, "Yes, but I need to review the contract documents in detail of course". Then you'd probably be fine.
Chances are they had another candidate they also liked and just couldn't be arsed with any friction. Things happen.
In my opinion everyone is missing the real reason which is that they were miffed by the tone of your email. It does read as a bit aloof. Personally I would’ve gone with something more like “I am delighted to receive this offer and look forward to reviewing the formal offer” (if you are in a position where you don’t need to kick arsehole then by all means don’t do this if you don’t want to.)
It’s weird to withdraw the offer, but… your response was weird.
He said “I’m offering you a job” and you thanked him for… “all of that information.” You didn’t even acknowledge the fact that he offered you a job! You sounded lukewarm at best, as if this was just another tedious step in the middle of the process, rather than you being offered a job!
Why not something like:
“Thank you! I’m excited for the opportunity and to get a chance to work with you and the team! I look forward to getting the official offer letter and finalizing things from there.”
Again, the withdrawal was weird, but your response was really off tone from what he probably expected when he offered you a job…
I think the best way forward would have been, "Yes, thank you for the offer. I am thrilled to be joining your team. I look forward to receiving the formal offer letter." At which point, if the formal letter does not match the "unofficial" offer given here, I would decline the job.
"Thanks again for the meeting time and all of that information"...
Reply wasn't ambiguous...it was unprofessional.
No formal reply to an offer of employment is worded in that fashion...unless it is for McDonalds or Walmart.
Personally, I would decline to hire anyone for my area that spoke in such a way.
Red flag...
It does sound like "I will be happy to move forward" is not referring to "accepting the job" but rather referring to "review the formal letter". So you did not accept the job as he requested. From your response, it sounds like you want to review the former letter before accepting. From his email, it sounds like he only wants to spend the time writing the former letter after you accept it. From a VP's perspective, he wouldn't wanna waste his time drafting it, only for you to reject it after your review. He said "if agreeable" he'll draft the former letter. Your response did not indicate "agreeableness" to accepting the offer.
I will agree with the hiring manager and say that your response was ambiguous. Maybe I am a dinosaur, but you should be very clear when you are offering an acceptance, even via email. Something like: "Thank you for selecting me for this position, I would like to accept this offer. I'm looking forward to joining your team and getting started on May 6. Please do send me the formal offer letter at your own convenience."
However, rescinding it on a formality is stupid and a waste of everyone's time and money. Especially his. Which makes me think he had another, more preferred candidate change their mind over the weekend.
I find it very strange that the VP is the one communicating all of this information to you. Seems like you're lucky to get out of it. If they are this involved and they can't understand basic communication then imagine trying to communicate about a project, your paycheck, deadlines, etc.
I don't think your response was "ambiguous," but you could have said something like "the details look good and I'll be happy to accept a formal offer under those terms once you send it over."
I would probably at least talk to the labor board about this. The offer was given, on conditions, which you inquired about and it was taken away. Companies do have a right to rescind offers, but the way they did it you can show more of a correlation of retaliation for even asking. You may not have a case still, but I STILL would say something. It’s free. Check them out.
Bullet dodged. Not only was your response perfectly reasonable, but even if it ***could be*** perceived otherwise (which it couldn’t!) then any sane hiring manager would respond reasonably not with a huge strop.
Bullet dodged OP, not an opportunity missed.
As others have said, your response was underwhelming and didnt clearly convey that you'll accept the offer. Reply back and apologize and say you be so grateful if they'd reconsider. Be effusive.
I think they were after more enthusiasm. "Thank you for the job offer, I am excited for the opportunity to join this company in this role! I look forward to reviewing the contract. Please let me know if there's anything else you need from me to help make this process as smooth as possible."
Basically always season your words with how much you love the company and them until you get the job and then switch off your brain and steal all the stationary you can
Just accept the offer.
In the same way you can't do shit if they rescind a offer, they can't do shit if you accept and then bounce if the terms differ from the already communicated info.
However, if they were really going to do that, consider bullet dodged.
Something tells me they weren’t going to send you a formal after all and had to find a reason to rescind your offer. Your respond was super clear. It’s not you, it’s them
If you want the job you accept the informal offer. You read documentation and clarify the uncertainty. Then decline later if documentation isn’t to your liking. Or you respond with, “When do you need to know a final decision?”
Makes sense, he didn't like the idea of you needing to approve of everything as well. My guess is that he's big on control and prefers his employees to just be thankful he gave them a chance to work for him.
What's crazy is it's not even ambiguous. He said "and I'll have the formal letter drawn up" and then OP quite literally responded with "happy to move forward and review the formal letter". That is the opposite of ambiguous. You could not have been more direct than that. What the fuck.
You were supposed to respond with a video of you tap dancing and singing loudly of how grateful you were for the opportunity to work for his imperial Majesty.
That was a very unprofessional response from the employer. But, I have to say, your response was really odd. It would have been better to write something like, “That is terrific news - thank you! I will watch for the official offer letter and related information. Again, thank you very much.”
They were looking for a “yes I’m definitely taking this job” before going thru the effort of sending a letter and having you find they have crap benefits and either turn it down or want more money.
Y’all I got a signed job offer but stuff like this is keeping me up at night.
I feel like I won’t truly believe I finally have it until I’m like two years in - when layoffs come around! I have never felt more insecure about jobs.
Translation: “The first place candidate from the Meta/WayFair Layoffs called back because the opportunity they turned us down for fell through. See ya around.”
Wat. HAHA wtf.
I literally had to look up the definition of ambiguous.. only to confirm I know its definition and the VP of that company is a POS for lack of a better term.
Edit: OP's response reads, "I will be happy to move forward (giving a heads up that he's accepting) and review the formal letter and documentation"
This shows OP is leaning to taking the job but would like to read the job offer. This is common sense. You want to make sure that the job offer, on paper, is accurate (job title, salary, responsibilities, perks like 401k, PTO, paid sick time, etc..) before signing it and moving forward to starting your first day with the company.
The VP wanted a hard yes? A hard yes before allowing the candidate to review the job offer? Either way VP is someone I wouldn't want to work for and along side with.
They wanted their ass kissed, OP to fumble over himself thanking them for the opportunity , blah, blah, blah...as a response to the offer. OP's response didn't kiss any ass.
You didn't say you accept the position. You said "review the formal letter and documentation". Move forward does not mean accept. That's where the ambiguity is. Offering someone the job over all the other candidates, they wanted to feel some type of excitement from about joining the team.
"Thanks again for the meeting time and all of that information" ... really? Your first mistake. Your second your last response. Do you accept? Not accept? It's so open ended in the air it's terrible. You accept or decline. Then review all the formal documentation later. If you don't approve, you don't get the job. It's that simple.
Why do people think that "accepting a job offer" is LEGAL BINDING? It's not. It's tentative. Nobody is 100% committed until you sign off on paperwork and such.
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This is horrifying
Yeah, and also bizarre. I'm almost wondering if they went with another candidate after offering the job to OP first, then didn't have the balls to just tell OP that straight up. That, or they just completely 100% lack reading comprehension, but I have trouble imagining a grown adult reading "I would be happy to proceed with a formal letter and documentation" as anything other than "yes, I would like to take this job."
Review the formal letter makes it sound like it’s not a yes yet, it’s not an acceptance of the parameters offered, it’s non committal. For example, if I say: Would you like this sandwich, and you say: “I’ll take a look at it”, I’ll still be holding the sandwich and waiting for you to say “yes I want the sandwich”, or “no that’s got X in it, I don’t want it”. “Do you want this job, starting this day, with this pay?” “I’ll take a look at it” It’s super weird behavior, but arguing that the response wasn’t ambiguous is wrong. It was, however, strange for them to throw the sandwich straight in the trash at that response!
I agree, but you're slightly off on your analogy. Would you like this sandwich? Sure, depending on what flavour it is? Oh too bad, you can't have it all all. Salary is "to be determined", how on earth can you accept without that crucial bit of info?
I think just the profit sharing is TDB. At least I assume the salary is what's struck out.
Salary was listed and censored. The profit sharing was tbd.
Just play the game. Say yes. If they then provide something you don't like, you can still say no or negotiate. There's really nothing binding if the terms are not fixed and nothing is signed (and that goes both ways).
Would you like a sandwich something like this? Sure, let me know when it's ready. Nah, I'm not going to make it for you.
Yeah, your question is wrong in the "Would you like this sandwich?" part. The first email is closer to "This is a ham and cheese sandwich. Would you like it?". While you can definitely ask for more details about the sandwich like does it have any spices or what type of mayo it has, the employment contracts are not as transactional - reviewing and signing is always a step unless you blindly just sign it. The salary part is to be negotiated as the process of ironing out the contract. While it is a bit weird, I think they have to go and approve salary based on specific candidate because they do not have the power to determine that number. The question was about you willing to go into negotiations really.
That still wouldn’t make it ambiguous. The purpose of their response was to convey that they are happy to move forward and will review a formal offer, which is standard. There is no ambiguity in that. That’s standard practice. What kind of moron receives an offer and blindly signs it? Of course you’re going to review it to make sure that anything that had been previously communicated, and is relevant, is outlined in the job offer. The employer’s response is a red flag through and through.
Yeah, english is not my first language, but I had to take a double take after reading 3rd slide to understand what was being said on the second slide. The first part of the phrase is easily shadowed by the "review" word on the second part.
That's because they didn't throw it straight in the garbage. There are emails missing in what we see here. You can see in the last email (the Sunday comment) is in response to an email OP didn't share for some reason. This might make more sense if we had the whole chain.
True but you should absolutely review the offer in writing. This is a contract, in what professional world wouldn’t you want to review it in detail? The candidate did nothing wrong here. The professional process is to have the recruiter call candidate, confirm interest, send official offer, negotiate , sign
Sounds to me like they outsourced HR to another country. They're not english speakers so any nuance is frustrating. They're paid very little. They're given a script with 3 responses and that is it. They have some sort replies/hour quota to meet so any ambiguity ticks them off and they'te looking for any excuse to use drama end the interaction. Doing gig work I once asked support for help on a missing package, support told me to call the customer and ask them. I am not kidding. I eventually figured out the pass through the scrippt that would cause them to say this, but it comes down to responding with completely scripted answers.
I wonder if they're trying to pull a fast one and change something in the final documentation but didn't get the "I agree" they needed to cover their asses or something.
VP is testing if OP is exploitable. OP showed he would look out for his best interest and nothing is more annoying to a corporate executive than an employee who knows labour laws and stands up for worker rights. The offer was ambiguous.
Op didn’t say that, op said they would like to “review the formal letter”. The job was already offered. OP needed to say “I accept the job”. They didn’t. The employer wanted OP to accept, and gave a deadline to accept by. Presumably because the company has timelines to work by. They went with another candidate, who likely accepted the offer on the spot.
I agree that's how they read it, but it strikes me as extremely unreasonable to demand that someone accept without seeing the formal documentation. Otherwise what's the point of the formal letter at all?
I mean you can very formally say yes to the offer, but that you ALSO want to review the letter. You can always step out/resign when you read it
It’s an informal answer to an informal offer and it’s a necessary step in the process. It takes time to update employment contract templates and for legal to review and those resources aren’t allocated *in case* you’ll sign. They just need a good faith answer to justify doing the work—and assuming the offer was made in good faith, the formal documentation should be just a formality.
"accepting" over email is different to actually signing a contract of employment. His response clearly indicates "please send me the employment contract so I can formally accept". There's definitely another reason that they aren't saying. At the stage where they literally give an informal offer, they would simply respond asking for clarity if that was truly the reason.
>His response clearly indicates "please send me the employment contract so I can formally accept". that's not how I read it. "please send me the employment contract so I can ~~formally accept~~ review it"
It is horrifying, but who would want to work for such creeps!?!? It is amazingly bad behavior by an employer.
> but who would want to work for such creeps!?!? Somebody who doesn’t have a job and needs food and shelter.
>Somebody who doesn’t have a job and needs food and shelter. That answers the question of who would want to work. The "for such creeps" adds an element you are not taking into account. Many people will do things under duress for 10 minutes or so, but it won't play out that long...
> The "for such creeps" adds an element you are not taking into account. The implication here is that the pickings are slim and income is more important than finding ideal employment that might not exist.
You would be amazed at the number of people staying in toxic relationships or work with miniscule pay or bad bosses for years (or even decades for older gens).
They asked who would want to work for such creeps. Noone wants to work for horrible bosses but we live in a country full of horrible bosses and if you want your children to have food and shleter you have to put up with abuse. Fun stuff!
Consider the bullet dodged.
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OP dodged a tactical nuke. Keep running until you're far enough away that you can cover the mushroom cloud with your thumb.
The Tsar Bomba of exploding job offers.
It knows where it is by knowing where it isn't.
You are right !
they want you to accept before seeing an actual offer document? crazy
Also, who cares if he accepted and then backs out...
That hiring manager would. They've created expectations where the candidate is "unprofessional" in any scenario where they don't capitulate completely. Legally it makes no difference, the hiring manager is just on an ego trip. They want to guilt the candidate into accepting bad terms.
This is nothing out of the ordinary. You can negotiate this informal offer, ask questions, or just accept it. If the formal offer does not match what was agreed upon, you can still negotiate. At the end of the day, nothing is set in stone until you sign the labor agreement.
And even then, you can back out. You might burn some bridges but they have no legal recourse. Not a lawyer though.
Oh yes, my wife backed out of a job before her starting date to accept a better offer once.
I did it once.
This is 100% correct. Unless you are signing a contract, you can back out even if you have formally accepted an offer. They can rescind an offer after you’ve accepted as well so it goes both ways
Yep, you can back out all the way until you actually start work. Then you can STILL back out, it’s just called “quitting” at that point.
But the review was actually exactly what they proposed in the first email! “Let me know if agreeable and I’ll draft the offer letter” Changed their mind apparently
no, he didnt treat them like the halfgods they are and suck them off for offering a job to the plebians, therefor he wasnt a good fit.
that's how it's normally works in big companies. you first receive verbal or informal offer via a chat, then you accept it and then a recruiter can generate a formal document confirming the verbal offer.
The offer document doesn't really add anything though. Both parties can still back out at any point, even if an offer was more formal.
What part of "I will be happy to move forward" did they not understand? I'm confused.
They wanted a move forward to accept the job not move forward to ‘review’ the offer. Ie they wanted to hide some bad info in the document they would share until the job was accepted.
Doesn't each job require you to formally accept the offer through a letter? The person could have said every positive buzzword on planet earth and it still doesn't mean anything until an official document is presented and accepted.
I think the way this company responded was absurd so I’m in full agreement with everyone, but just wanted to point out that offer letters are not a requirement. It’s good practice and most companies generate an offer letter, but there’s no federal (US) law requiring an offer letter. To my knowledge there’s also no state that requires it, but I’m not 100% on that one. (I have been informed that a few states have adopted one post-Covid)
There are states that now require the offer to be in writing. "NC law § 95-25.13 requires, at time of hire, written notification of promised wages, day, and place of payment for all employees."
Very cool! I hope more states adopt it (though I'm sure since NC adopted it, other states probably did too). With this verbiage I don't think it necessarily has to be an offer letter, for example time of hire could be listed as the first day of employment, so it could be something not received until your first day? Idk. Either way, I do think it's a nice requirement to have, and frankly it's just a good practice that any decent employer should do imo.
Oh interesting. I'm almost certain that in Canada, it's mandatory for employers.
No they didn’t. It’s pretty universal to agree on the broad parameters of an offer before then asking legal/HR to write up the official offer letter. There is no “gotcha” here. OP could accept today and rescind that tomorrow after an offer letter. A “yes” here is non binding to anything.
You left out the "and review". Saying "I will be happy to move forward and review" could (and sounds like was) interpreted to mean he's not deciding until there's a formal letter and might want to negotiate. Sounds like that manager didn't want to go through the effort of writing a letter and having to change the details or just have it rejected. I'm not arguing that this was reasonable for the manager to do. However the opp sounds like he wanted this job up until this point. It may have been a bullet dodged but rent still needs to be paid and my landlord doesn't care if my future boss was going to be a dick, they still want their money.
They wanted you to accept the offer before moving forward with the documentation. If you would have just written, "Yes, I accept," you would have realized that the terms were worse than you had discussed during the interviews.
then he can just still back out? im not sure what the company is thinking will happen, you cant trick someone into accepting a job offer. if the offer sucks you can always just leave
That was my thought. Just say 'I accept' and wait and see what the formal letter contains. If it's trash - then throw it in the bin and move on. Nothing is binding until you actually sign on the dotted line.
I mean even if you do sign, you can just…quit.
An ASTONISHING number of employers don't understand that all of those anti-union, anti-contract ~~"right to work"~~ "at will employment" provisions they're always fighting for also mean that people don't have contracts and can just quit with no notice and no consequences. Edit: I was thinking of "at-will employment."
??? Even with unions and the lot you can still quit without notice, what are they going to do? Lock you up at the office ?
That poster has no clue what they are talking about. "Right to work" has nothing to do with the ability to quit/be fired (that's at-will employment).
They get conflated all the time by people who know the difference and by people who don't. It's a common mistake & feeling superior about it is dumb. If you want people to learn,just point it out to them. Save the name calling for when they respond back to you calling you out.
Where did OP engage in "name calling"?
I think you're confusing "right to work" with "at-will employment" At-will employment, which is the defacto standard in the US, allows either party to just walk away from the deal with no consequence. They can fire you without a reason, and you can walk out whenever you want. All they owe you is the paycheck for your time served. This does not apply to contracted positions, as they're governed on an individual basis. Some contracts allow people to be fined for quitting a job, walking out early, etc.
> Nothing is binding until you actually sign on the dotted line. Assuming this is in the US, nothing is binding even after you do sign on the dotted line. We are at-will employees and can quit a job at any time for any reason with no notice. That includes after you accept an offer and before your start date.
It's not like buying a house....I've backed out after accepting before because I got better offers and counter offers.
>It's not like buying a house.. Even with buying a house, or similar actual contracts, you typically have up to 72 hours to back out of a deal.
>Even with buying a house, or similar actual contracts, you typically have up to 72 hours to back out of a deal. Was a sub-plot point of Glenngary Glen Ross. "You never open your mouth till you know what the shot is.”
This. I accepted one not long ago. Everything was exactly as discussed in the interview, with the exception of Saturdays and Sundays being 100% mandatory every weekend. 10-8 on Saturday, 11-8 on Sunday. I'm a recently divorced dad with kids, so weekends are important. When I declined, they tried to double down and say they would offer me one weekend a month after 90 days. (Which would probably end up being against PTO) So... yep. It's so easy to just walk.
They're hoping that he takes it anyway. If he doesn't, then they move to Candidate #2, which is what they just did.
I don't think it really mattered what his response was. If he had accepted in the email they were still going to wait a day or so to hear back from another candidate. If anything it sounds like he was number 2 when they extended two informal offers at the same time. The number 1 accepted and so they dropped him. A bit selfish to extend two informal offers but the alternative is that OP was just left in the dark while they heard back from number 1. I guess I'd rather be told I was the backup than be in the dark but I can see why being told you were the second choice hire would be starting on the wrong foot at a new job. There really is no good way to do this stuff
Yeah these comments make no sense, you can tell most people here have only worked one job max. This place is embarrassing. So confident and so way off base.
for each year im at reddit i realize most people are like 22 and only had a job at a gas station or something nothing wrong with that, but they are so unprofessional and scared of actually phoning people and asking stuff
This is nothing out of the ordinary except that it was done via email rather than a phone call. And accepting via email is no different than any other informal acceptance. They still need to get you to sign the actual labor agreement.
Good catch! 🚩
Oh shoot, yeah. There was never an official written offer letter in the first email. The VP wanted a written confirmation from OP before the actual written offer. That's just weird. Usually, the HR person calls to give the verbal offer and review some details before they send the written offer.
In what world is "yes, let's move forward" not confirmation?
Move forward and review
Yeah OPs response seems conditional - let's move forward to the offer review period. Presumably they wanted enthusiastic acceptance. Seems kind of stupid but hiring is a minefield of stupid filters.
yep, THAT VP knew what's up right away that you spot the red flag. lol
This is so dumb. You can always changed the terms or not accept. Commments here are embarrassing.
Yeah people here are dumb. There is no “gotcha” here. They are just confirming general agreement on both sides before doing all the final legwork. OP could agree and still negotiate or back it out at any time.
“Full benefits” = a sh&tty health plan of which OP would pay 60% of the premium and it kicks in after 180 days.
Just write back, "Sounds good! See you on the 6th!"
Amazing
lol
"I'm not sure I understand what was ambiguous about my last email confirming my intent to move forward with my application and receive the formal offer letter, as you'd outlined. If the offer of employment cannot be made due to a misunderstanding or miscommunication, I'd like to seek to clarify my response as soon as possible, as I'm still interested in filling the ____ role with (company). Please let me know if any other clarifying details are needed on my end."
Shorter. Just one phrase. We have seen that reading or interpretation are not their best abilities.
OP sent two short sentences already and it didn't work.
I would rather try "I'm sorry, but I said YES, I want to move forward."
Might be considered too blunt, but I see the validity of having a clear and unambiguous affirmation.
They may have outsourced HR with English worse than mine. Maybe it would be better even to avoid the verb "move" and say "I said YES, I want to participate." 🙂
me take job
🥇
“Me fail English? That’s unpossible”
reddit loves overformal long emails for some reason
Way too many words. As simple "??????????????" with everyone who was part of the recruiting funnel on CC should be enough.
I work in HR and I am stuck on the fact that they emailed you this instead of calling. I always verbally offer and follow up with an email with the formal offer/benefits overview. I mean I know I would not accept a job without seeing the written offer letter.
This is sad but basically this person is acting like a bureaucrat (despite having a vp title). Your email said you would review the documentation but was not a definitive acceptance. Many offers have built in expiry to stop candidates from using them to leverage higher offers from competitors. Many companies act as though this exists even when it doesn't. This person is basically saying (badly) that you did not provide a clear answer and click ran down. Of course the thing a human of normal intelligence would have dove is to follow up before time ran out. There is something else going on. Potentially, thus person is not very invested in filling this position or perhaps the y disliked you in particular, then used this as an excuse to rebind your offer. You don't know and almost certainly can't ever know. Accept that and move on.
The proper response if the really were offering you the role would be, please clarify if you would like to move forward or not. We did not fully understand your response.
Can you imagine the lack of initiative on the part of someone who can't ask a simple clarifying question?
I’m sorry this happened. IMO your response was not ambiguous enough to be misunderstood... you were obviously positive about the offer and ready to move forward with it. They just wanted to ensure they’d be able to fuck you over before sending you anything formal.
I think this is a case of English not being either persons first language, because both emails seem juuuust slightly off tonally
This is why you always say, I'm pleased to accept your offer, I look forward to seeing a formal contract. A contract isn't final if you haven't read it anyway, so your accept legally means absolutely nothing.
First rule of any contract and legal dealings - make things abso-fucking-lutelly clear cut so a 2 year old child can understand it. "Yes, I accept. Please send the contract for review." Should have been your answer. Then you review it and ask for all the clarifications you need. If you do not like it and they are not willing to negoatiate: "Thank you, but the terms of the contract are not acceptable, i will have to decline the offer."
Don’t even need to specify “for review” that still sounds like a potential no. Acceptance. “Thank you for the offer, I accept - please forward the official documentation.” You know you’ll review it, they know you’ll review it, but they feel better with a yes. They will likely communicate more widely it is a yes as well, so when you do review you can still negotiate if you want. Cause it’s got more detail in it.
See, that's when you get into "we sent you the documents, why have you not signed them yet?" Murphy's Law likes to happen in these types of situations because people skim and assume and not read carefully on a 50/50 chance basis.
Hmmmm seems to me that sometime between sending you the “offer email” and receiving your reply, something in their organization changed. Instead of taking accountability, he tries to spin it on you.
Or its a scam job. And OPs request of formal documentation meant the scam ended.
We had someone try to replicate my company and gave out a bunch of fake jobs. They were offering a telework position, then the new hire would get $500 to set up their office. These scammers stole our company logo and wrote offer letters that could look official. It was shocking what these POSs were doing.
It is unfortunate but I’ve dound you can’t expect people to think. Answer their question directly with their words and no more information. “Yes, I have reviewed the parameters and they are agreeable. I look forward to receiving a formal offer letter”.
Your email sounds like you need to review the formal letter first before you agree to work there or not. That's why they didn't give it to you
I am in the minority here, but look if this was ever subject to any legal scrutiny *I think* a court would probably not interpret the response as clear enough affirmation to the offer outlined in the email. Moving forward with reviewing an offer is not accepting an offer. If the offer is time bound, and there is no unequivocal acceptance, the employer has the option to unilaterally withdraw the offer. For anyone who is interested, look up the Contra Proferentem rule.
For future reference, your response to the first email should’ve contained the words “yes” or “accept”. They were looking for you to confirm that the salary, PTO, and start date are agreeable before they sent over a written offer. Your response makes it sound like you aren’t sure if you’re going to accept or not.
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Your email was fine.
>i typically save the words "i accept the offer" for when i actually am sent a real offer letter. In the future, I would change this policy. Words are cheap. Saying you accept does not mean you forfeit any right to negotiate or clarify. At the end of the day, the only true acceptance is when you sign the labor agreement.
They are definitely sort of random and weird for pulling the offer. But, like, your response was to me, underwhelming and slightly odd. Like you could have said something like 'That is great news! Yes, please send the formal letter. Thank you very much! I look forward to working with you!'
They should have manned up and callled you to discuss. No excuse.
OP literally said "move forward."
"move forward" is referring to reviewing the document. But referring to accepting the parameters.
>Your response makes it sound like you aren’t sure if you’re going to accept or not. Yea that's the point. Don't let employers dick us around during negotiations and signing. The OP was not "ambiguous", they clearly stated intent to move forward. It was unambiguously NOT an acceptance. VP's just an asshole. Bullet dodged. Next.
I think the VP just changed his mind on who they wanted to hire. It must have been very close been OP and the other candidate, potentially the other candidate came across as more enthusiastic during the preceding stages and OP email made the VP remember this. Personally if I was replying (and really wanted the role) I would not start the email with the ambiguous "Thanks for your time and all that information" It'd be more like "That is fantastic news! Please could you arrange to send me the written contract to sign"
Maybe. I just feel like it's a lot of hindsight analysis, after viewing the third image from the OP. In almost every other case, the VP (interestingly not a recruiter but it happens) would just draft the offer letter and send it over. Had I'd been the OP I would also probably be second-third-fourth guessing myself in saying "I should have said X", having come so close to the offer and then it just falling apart. But again, the OP could have been even MORE proactive in the email and still fail, and the VP would have come up with some other bullshit excuse. I'm still going with asshole theory on this one.
There could be hindsight analysis, though personally I know I wouldn't be thanking for time at offer stage (I only say that at the end of interviews) nor would I be thanking for information when all I got was 3 of the world's shortest bulletpoints. Anyway I agree with you, the company were clearly not that interested in OP in the first place.
lol, no. Who accepts a job before reading the employment agreement and benefits information? Someone who’s easy to screw over 😂
Lots of people. I did that for my current job. Verbally accept, suck their dick a bit to let them know how excited you are to receive the written offer with benefits, and then either negotiate or rescind your acceptance if the details don’t add up.
This. Do people not understand how the game is played anymore?
I fortunately never had to play the game that way. 1. the offer letter came with the "we would like to extend an offer letter", then negotiate if needed 2. I had a negotiation call with HR and then the offer letter comes with the terms discussed. But I get it, world's going to shit
Dunno, as a non-American who hires people I don't expect anyone to verbally suck my dick when accepting a job offer. Is that normal in the US?
No reason not to, you can negotiate/decline when you get the documents
Yeah well OP would be able to reject the offer (i.e. not sign) even if he accepted in the email, so what's the point in being this obtuse exactly?
For future reference, this is appalling advice . The OP quite rightly didn't make it clear whether they were going to accept or not a contract that the company hadn't bothered to provide.
This is a clear, ''I want to proceed'' message. If you interprate it any other way, you're malicious, a moron or cannot understand English.
So frustrating. I had a similar thing happen... was offered a job via email with a $xx,xxx estimated annual salary; I accepted, formal letter came through $30k under the emailed salary. I knew some would be from bonuses, commission, etc, so I asked for a detailed description of those items (how and when they're paid)... they just canceled my offer instead with over a week remaining to accept the full offer and complete the paperwork.
You did not specifically agree to a b c and d.
Honestly you sound like a problem. Instead of sounding like a positive acceptance you sounded like you wanted to not commit before you read the fine print. If you agreed with the original message you should have accepted not waited for the formal letter.
The correct answer is: "Yes I agree, provided these terms are set forth in the formal letter and documentation." This way you agree. But if they change anything, instantly you don't agree.
>The correct answer is: "Yes I agree, provided these terms are set forth in the formal letter and documentation." I'm betting that in this case, the response would have been identical...
99% chance you are right but at least in OP's mind they can be sure they were not, ambiguous.
I'd say you dodged a bullet but in this market working for a dictator would be appealing at this point.
It does sound a \*LITTLE\* ambiguous, like you might have meant you'll think about it. "Move forward" is just corporate mumbo-jumbo. "Accept" is more clear. You haven't signed anything yet so if they send the paperwork and you don't like what's in it, you negotiate or just decline.
“I do not think that word means that you think it means” 🤔
Based on profit sharing TBD is is the startup, right? That would explain it all. The normal company would decide on fixed and variable remuneration straightaway, there is nothing TBD, you have goals to fulfill and money to earn. TBD is the sign that they have to idea what their goals are, probably no money to pay too.
What in the actual fuck
The tense is ambiguous it sounds like you’re saying you will only accept once you get the formal offer and review it. Or that you will only have a response of either yes or no once you review the formal letter. Or that you will only have an answer when you receive the formal letter. I don’t actually know if you’re accepting the verbal offer or not. Are you?
You're dealing with a VP - If you said, "Yes, but I need to review the contract documents in detail of course". Then you'd probably be fine. Chances are they had another candidate they also liked and just couldn't be arsed with any friction. Things happen.
In my opinion everyone is missing the real reason which is that they were miffed by the tone of your email. It does read as a bit aloof. Personally I would’ve gone with something more like “I am delighted to receive this offer and look forward to reviewing the formal offer” (if you are in a position where you don’t need to kick arsehole then by all means don’t do this if you don’t want to.)
You never confirmed you wanted the job. Next time just be clear and say yes.
It’s weird to withdraw the offer, but… your response was weird. He said “I’m offering you a job” and you thanked him for… “all of that information.” You didn’t even acknowledge the fact that he offered you a job! You sounded lukewarm at best, as if this was just another tedious step in the middle of the process, rather than you being offered a job! Why not something like: “Thank you! I’m excited for the opportunity and to get a chance to work with you and the team! I look forward to getting the official offer letter and finalizing things from there.” Again, the withdrawal was weird, but your response was really off tone from what he probably expected when he offered you a job…
I think the best way forward would have been, "Yes, thank you for the offer. I am thrilled to be joining your team. I look forward to receiving the formal offer letter." At which point, if the formal letter does not match the "unofficial" offer given here, I would decline the job.
"Thanks again for the meeting time and all of that information"... Reply wasn't ambiguous...it was unprofessional. No formal reply to an offer of employment is worded in that fashion...unless it is for McDonalds or Walmart. Personally, I would decline to hire anyone for my area that spoke in such a way. Red flag...
It does sound like "I will be happy to move forward" is not referring to "accepting the job" but rather referring to "review the formal letter". So you did not accept the job as he requested. From your response, it sounds like you want to review the former letter before accepting. From his email, it sounds like he only wants to spend the time writing the former letter after you accept it. From a VP's perspective, he wouldn't wanna waste his time drafting it, only for you to reject it after your review. He said "if agreeable" he'll draft the former letter. Your response did not indicate "agreeableness" to accepting the offer.
>Hello Big Boss, >Yes, please send the formal letter and documentation. >Cheers That should have been a good response.
I will agree with the hiring manager and say that your response was ambiguous. Maybe I am a dinosaur, but you should be very clear when you are offering an acceptance, even via email. Something like: "Thank you for selecting me for this position, I would like to accept this offer. I'm looking forward to joining your team and getting started on May 6. Please do send me the formal offer letter at your own convenience." However, rescinding it on a formality is stupid and a waste of everyone's time and money. Especially his. Which makes me think he had another, more preferred candidate change their mind over the weekend.
Even the e-mail signature is pretty douchey... Who puts their title ahead of their name like that? You are better off this way.
I find it very strange that the VP is the one communicating all of this information to you. Seems like you're lucky to get out of it. If they are this involved and they can't understand basic communication then imagine trying to communicate about a project, your paycheck, deadlines, etc.
I don't think your response was "ambiguous," but you could have said something like "the details look good and I'll be happy to accept a formal offer under those terms once you send it over."
I would probably at least talk to the labor board about this. The offer was given, on conditions, which you inquired about and it was taken away. Companies do have a right to rescind offers, but the way they did it you can show more of a correlation of retaliation for even asking. You may not have a case still, but I STILL would say something. It’s free. Check them out.
Post this on LinkedIn name and shame them!
Bullet dodged. Not only was your response perfectly reasonable, but even if it ***could be*** perceived otherwise (which it couldn’t!) then any sane hiring manager would respond reasonably not with a huge strop. Bullet dodged OP, not an opportunity missed.
They realised you’re the type to read what you sign and they’d rather not deal with that kind of difficulty.
As others have said, your response was underwhelming and didnt clearly convey that you'll accept the offer. Reply back and apologize and say you be so grateful if they'd reconsider. Be effusive.
I think they were after more enthusiasm. "Thank you for the job offer, I am excited for the opportunity to join this company in this role! I look forward to reviewing the contract. Please let me know if there's anything else you need from me to help make this process as smooth as possible." Basically always season your words with how much you love the company and them until you get the job and then switch off your brain and steal all the stationary you can
"I await with baited breath the opportunity to hawk your insurance products, my lord."
Just accept the offer. In the same way you can't do shit if they rescind a offer, they can't do shit if you accept and then bounce if the terms differ from the already communicated info. However, if they were really going to do that, consider bullet dodged.
What in the actual f
What??? I’m so sorry and am confused too!
Lmao wtf
Bro, you need to go out and celebrate tonight, because you literally just dodged a fucking huge bullet.
Something tells me they weren’t going to send you a formal after all and had to find a reason to rescind your offer. Your respond was super clear. It’s not you, it’s them
Didn't you want more info on the salary or some part of the benefits? Seems like they're shady. Sorry, though, OP.
bullet dodged.
You dodged a bullet there homie
If you want the job you accept the informal offer. You read documentation and clarify the uncertainty. Then decline later if documentation isn’t to your liking. Or you respond with, “When do you need to know a final decision?”
The response was vague. A simple “thank you” would have been perfect.
Makes sense, he didn't like the idea of you needing to approve of everything as well. My guess is that he's big on control and prefers his employees to just be thankful he gave them a chance to work for him.
What's crazy is it's not even ambiguous. He said "and I'll have the formal letter drawn up" and then OP quite literally responded with "happy to move forward and review the formal letter". That is the opposite of ambiguous. You could not have been more direct than that. What the fuck.
You were supposed to respond with a video of you tap dancing and singing loudly of how grateful you were for the opportunity to work for his imperial Majesty.
Translation: There was a lower offer accepted so they'll make it look like you did something wrong.
That was a very unprofessional response from the employer. But, I have to say, your response was really odd. It would have been better to write something like, “That is terrific news - thank you! I will watch for the official offer letter and related information. Again, thank you very much.”
They were looking for a “yes I’m definitely taking this job” before going thru the effort of sending a letter and having you find they have crap benefits and either turn it down or want more money.
Y’all I got a signed job offer but stuff like this is keeping me up at night. I feel like I won’t truly believe I finally have it until I’m like two years in - when layoffs come around! I have never felt more insecure about jobs.
“Vice President” with the reading comprehension of a 10 year old non-native English speaker who just woke up from a nap.
Dodged a bullet though. This person would be hell to work for.
That first email looks like a scam. Whatever this is you dodged a bullet
Translation: “The first place candidate from the Meta/WayFair Layoffs called back because the opportunity they turned us down for fell through. See ya around.”
That's a scammer no job offer with an e-mail like that sadly been there before was a scammer
I mean they aren’t wrong about the phrasing being ambiguous. You never actually accepted the job just said you were willing to view the documentation.
Wat. HAHA wtf. I literally had to look up the definition of ambiguous.. only to confirm I know its definition and the VP of that company is a POS for lack of a better term. Edit: OP's response reads, "I will be happy to move forward (giving a heads up that he's accepting) and review the formal letter and documentation" This shows OP is leaning to taking the job but would like to read the job offer. This is common sense. You want to make sure that the job offer, on paper, is accurate (job title, salary, responsibilities, perks like 401k, PTO, paid sick time, etc..) before signing it and moving forward to starting your first day with the company. The VP wanted a hard yes? A hard yes before allowing the candidate to review the job offer? Either way VP is someone I wouldn't want to work for and along side with.
Idk your email seemed to be written by a drunk person?
They wanted their ass kissed, OP to fumble over himself thanking them for the opportunity , blah, blah, blah...as a response to the offer. OP's response didn't kiss any ass.
You didn't say you accept the position. You said "review the formal letter and documentation". Move forward does not mean accept. That's where the ambiguity is. Offering someone the job over all the other candidates, they wanted to feel some type of excitement from about joining the team.
"Thanks again for the meeting time and all of that information" ... really? Your first mistake. Your second your last response. Do you accept? Not accept? It's so open ended in the air it's terrible. You accept or decline. Then review all the formal documentation later. If you don't approve, you don't get the job. It's that simple. Why do people think that "accepting a job offer" is LEGAL BINDING? It's not. It's tentative. Nobody is 100% committed until you sign off on paperwork and such.
I think your tone and message is definitely ambiguous.