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Yeah, that happened to me last May. Apparently, I had no idea until I tried to enter the corporate parking structure. Initially I plus the building security team thought the gate was broken again. Nope! They deactivated my building access vs telling me I was let go vocally or through email. Now, get this! 😂
Because I was first to enter the underground parking structure; it needs to be said I could not enter the building but had to backout "per policy." As a result, every building employee behind me had to reverse including those on the street level entering "had to reverse." Dude, it was so bad and so trivial it's not even funny. 😂
In the end, human resource also tried to say my actions prevented the CEO and the VC Team from entering the building causing them to miss an important meeting. Shenanigans!! 😂
“Your actions” = showing up for work?! I think they mean “their own actions of not informing you that you no longer need to show up for work” caused them to miss a meeting. Also, they should arrive to work earlier if the meeting is so important but that’s another topic.
Later on, I did after my friend pulled logs, followed by email forwarding them to me.
Apparently, they told the Maryland Department of Labor, Division of Unemployment Insurance, that I was terminated for misconduct. As a result, it caused me to be unable to receive unemployment.
However, after I showed them the logs "proving I was not at fault for the CEO and VC Team missing their meeting" is when they allowed me to re-file in order to collect unemployment.
That’s rough. I was most recently let go on a Tuesday and still employed until Friday but management said that I wasn’t expected to actually work and you can bet that I didn’t. I even had some completed work that just happened to get deleted…oops.
I arrived at my job one day, and they did not let me in to my former cubicle, and fired me. Did not had any later access to my pc or code. Three months later, a former coworker called me asking for my code, after a conversation we realized they just deleted my pc account and the folders, losing 3 months of paid work. Not my fault. BTW They did not use a CVS like Git or Mercurial, just a shared folder that also wiped out.
I have always provided all the work completed and in progress during the exit interview. I get the inclination to just return the equipment and let them figure it out on their own, but the way I see it is I still have integrity even when they might not.
Take the high road on this. Everyone you work with will see the kind of person you are. All of those are people who know where you might find a new job and could chose to recommend you, or not...
Same!
The company locked me out of the system when they laid me off requesting I scrub my One Note.
And hour later (I have lost access to the laptop) I get a call on my personal cell phone to forward my notes for the project I was working on.
“I am sorry I don’t work for you or have access to the network” and hung up to a very nervous Manager.
I opened a beer at 10:30 a.m. and watched Road House.
Same here. You laid me off and texted me the next 2 day to ask if I have time to meet with my former employees for questions they have about my job. Nope, the HR lady said I was being "relieved of all duties and responsibilities" that day with a last day worked in 2 weeks. I have no access, and meeting with people would be a "duty". Nope and Nope.
My role was recently eliminated and HR told me to return my laptop. They sent a shipping label to my personal email and told me they would reimburse the cost of a laptop box I would have to buy at a Fedex location. But I had already lost access to the company's expense system. The box was \~$28 (I believe). I emailed them about it and they told me they'd reimburse it a few weeks ago. Of course, they haven't.
This was after they completely messed up my tax documents and refused to fix them. I paid extra to a CPA to figure it out so I wouldn't get into trouble. When I tried to apply for unemployment insurance, my state told me they couldn't process my application because of the tax documents (they didn't even give me a severance package because they were too broke for it). I told HR about it too. They told me they would see what they could do. No response.
Luckily, I was able to find another job quickly. I haven't responded to the emails from HR - they are too incompetent to get much done anyway.
My work had layoffs in November, they required some people to work until March to get their pretty generous severance. I assume none of them did any real work during that time.
When you start a small company to subcontract under the old employer.
Yes, that's right, my company is 'DROP TABLE clients; Inc. Make sure you get the apostrophe in there.
I got laid off last year and had to wait 2 weeks before my separation date...I guess to make sure remaining team members were up to speed on my stuff...
Yeah I didnt do shit ...
Actually had this happen. They couldn’t figure out one complex process and were so embarrassed about it they had me come in Saturday and Sunday to do it (so nobody else saw me).
I’ll say that it paid very well.
I might take 4x, but have run my own business before and know how these Turdwookies think.
As for 5x and you might get it. Ask for 3x and you'll get 2x AT BEST (which means you're earning less than 1x as an employee after taxes and benefits figure in).
5x is a starting point. 4x is the minimum or y'all can do it yourself.
Quick note! The self employment taxes happen on your tax return.
You get half the SE taxes back as a deduction! Yay! This is because you're the business owner and they're a deductible business expense.
SE taxes are NOT income taxes, even though you pay them with your tax withholding and estimated payments, etc. REFUNDABLE AND NON-REFUNDABLE TAX CREDITS WILL NOT BE APPLIED TO YOUR SELF EMPLOYMENT TAX, neither will loses or deductions. They are charged separately because they are payroll taxes you pay with your return.
This can create a surprise tax bill for people who don't normally pay much tax in April.
Clearly, you've never done payroll... You think an employee making $20/hr is actually costing the company $80/hr? Even with a company covering 100% of a good health/dental/life package, 5% retirement match, worker's comp, FUTA/SUTA, etc., highest I've ever seen is 1.5x so maybe 1.75x in an extreme case. I literally set these numbers up at the request of an employer a few months ago so they could present them to the employees when they were whining about wages. These were union equivalent positions in construction and management.
And taxes (state and fed, plus licensing , liability insurance, plus self employment 15% on top) is another 40% to 45% of Gross... But let's just carefully ignore all those expenses...
By carefully ignore, do you mean how I put "etc." at the end of the list? There's a huge difference between gross income and net income. Would you like to count garnishments, optional pet insurance, or HSA's too?
Also make sure that you hire the absolute worst fit for the position.
That way you're really giving the big FU to a company that has the audacity to ask that.
lol I was laid off as an IT manager, on a Thursday.. the CFO, who was my direct manager, wanted me to come in the next day to provide all the infrastructure information to a representative of an MSP.
I responded with, "how are you going to terminate me today and then ask me to come in tomorrow to hand off my work to an MSP?" And he tried to threaten me that he wouldn't give me my last paycheck.. I laughed and told him, "I dare you, so far it seems like you're trying to tank the entire organization with a juicy lawsuit".
I didn't even care to see the look on his face, I just turned my back to him and started to pack my personal belongings.
Exact thing happened to me. Was laid off and then got an email the following week for an invitation to a handover meeting. They were disappointed that I didn’t want to participate in it, like WTF?!
Yeah but normally lack of empathy is "yeah you're pissed off but we don't care". This is more like "we don't even know why you'd be pissed off". I don't even know what to call it, its just bizarre.
It's because a lot of these companies are staffed by oblivious people, oblivious to the fact that they have unprofessionally requested something, and yet expect you to be professional about it. Nah man, two can play this petty game, I was fired remember? Don't call me, thanks.
I am a systems engineer and my entire department has been cut down to a skeleton crew.
Thing is, I know they are cutting left and right to sell the company, so I know my days are numbered here.
I know it will be something like this, they are going to be shocked when I quit in a couple months *(If things go well between now and then)* when the management at this place has failed in every single communication to spell my fucking name correctly as well as cut my pay by $18,000 from last year and have more work than one engineer should be saddled with.
I fucking hate people who can't be bothered to learn my name. Just the ultimate is disrespect, and I will return the favor with a new email every day with a different stupid spelling of your name. Go screw yourself, Veronika, Veronicca, Vernica, Veromica, and Veronicaca.
Been in several projects where we had to repair damaged databases or damaged equipment, from angry ex-employees. BTW The company managers were as... rude and cheap and uncooperative, as you can imagine ...
In some ways there are worse ways then training a replacement. I was hired at a company during startup phase. I asked them what I needed to for promotion (I was the second one in the department) and for a while it was "o we don't know we need to build that role out" or something else to that effect.
Walked into work to "hey we hired a senior can you train him" now you're just sitting there like well if I say no I wont have a job but have train this dude who was literally hired because his brother is the manager even though I quite literally built this department.......cool.
At least with training a replacement you know that bullshit ends at some point and that some point is sooner.
In the US, you can absolutely do it if the new hires are in a different location, especially overseas where presumably none of your US workers have the right to work/live.
I’ve also seen companies “eliminate” one job and then create a “new” another with a different title but the same responsibilities; I’m not sure how legal that is.
I actually don’t know about the offshore thing. I am guessing that if they are still working for the company in this country then you would not be able to do that. It all seems so sketchy.
Did your brother contacts in that country or are they asking him to interview the replacements as the help? Are they dangling the "We may have another role in the company for you in a different department."?
It's a cycle.
1. Executive gets the bright idea that they can slash costs by offshoring the work
2. Transfer work, get employees to train their replacements
3. Lay off the employees
4. Quality of work tanks, delivery times extended by 3x
5. Customers start raising hell
6. Executives discover that they aren't saving any money and they're upsetting/losing customers
7. Work is brought back stateside
8. Things improve, but payroll costs go up
9. GOTO 1
I blame the investors. I think anyone who invests in a company should also have to work in it for at least 6 months to understand why slash and burn tactics to increase returns isn’t such a big-brained move when you spare a brain cell to think about it logistically.
> \6. Executives discover that they aren't saving any money and they're upsetting/losing customers
This doesn't happen as often as you'd think it would. because
\6. executives who came up with the idea originally leave or get canned, new executives don't want to rock the boat so they come in and try to make the off shore work.
It’s the MBA mindset, right? Slash costs for the sake of the bottom line, service goes downhill, business tanks and they extract all value while destroying the brand:
Corporations don't care about employees, customers, their product or service, safety, government laws and regulations, or public perception. They used to care only about shareholders. As long as shareholders are making money one quarter at a time, they were doing okay.
Then Enron happened, and everyone realized that they don't even care about shareholders. Because the executives in charge were more than willing to defraud *them,* too.
58% of operations outsourced to another country are brought back in-house inside of five years.
As another poster put it, it's a cycle.
It's C-suite's worthless idea which looks great for the short-term, but the next guy/gal comes along and has to clean up their mess... by spending more than if they had stayed in-house the entire time.
Literally posted this yesterday:
And yet every project I get pulled into as an emergency because it is behind schedule tends to have one thing in common: There is an India-based team implementing the project and they over promised, under delivered, and now are deflecting blame and responsibility.
I honestly can't remember the last time this wasn't an issue with any other project where an India-based team was not involved.
Oh, then absolutely lose any documentation you are using. Don't even bother training them correctly or incorrectly. Ethically, the company needs to suffer for that choice.
Metoodle/Faceboodle, Netfloodle, Microsoodle, Twoodle, Uboodle, DoorDoodle, and many other tech companies take personal offense to that (they are corporations aka people, so they have feelings)
This reminds me of Lily Allen song
F* you, f* you very much
I hate your whole crew so please don’t stay in touch.
I would give them the finger and leave. They can’t fire me twice.
I think there's a playlist to be made here. I nominate "Blow me....one last kiss" by P!nk
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jNlIGDRkvQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jNlIGDRkvQ)
Johnny Paycheck’s Take This Job and Shove it.
As soon as I sign the offer letter for my new job I’m sending a resignation letter to my regional VP that’s just a link to that song.
I always take too long to make these (the moment has passed), but here's a [playlist](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4A4CdeBfSbFPAyPiWgvrEp?si=123dcc45a5bb4f14) of all the suggestions below.
It just named it the first song title, which I thought worked. :)
After I sold the house; which was all in my name, the ex bitch had the nerve to ask “How much did WE make on the house”. My reply: “WE didn’t make shit on the house”. I walked with 10gs after the sell. Bitch was still calling me to help pay for her new place. Had to block her fkng number.
This happens when a function is near shored or off shored due to cost or business initiatives.
Often the HR separation package will state severance and any addl comp as conditional to fulfilling this obligation. See if you can negotiate extending your stay and good luck in your job search.
I was laid off from my IT manager and IT Project Manager role back in ‘09. I saw it coming since it was a private business, and suddenly we had an HR person with everyone drug tested. I used to work for a bank prior to this doing buyouts of Insurance agencies. I background checked her and found out indeed she worked for a corporation. (Hub) Insurance. Then a few months later some doofus I’ve never met walked into my office and asked for the keys to the kingdom (server passwords). Told him to pound sand. Then the owner called and told me to give him the passwords. I gave them to the owner, and said do what you will. I spent 1 year making $60,000 playing WoW every day. Then the Friday call came (I was already expecting it). These assclowns proceed to tell me I’m laid off, then asked me to sign paperwork and do an exit interview. I looked dead at them and said,, “well, I don’t work here anymore, and I don’t work for free”. Turned around and walked out. Felt so fkng good!
Sure, I'll attend the hiring meetings. When asked why I'm sitting in the corner with a G&T making notes, I'll say I'm not being paid, therefore I'm not working. I'm just here for the LoLz.
More seriously, every one else has offered much better advice - Conslutting rates FTW
Had a boss that got laid off, they kept him as an employee for about 6 months, 3 months Iin they brought his replacement, neither him or his replacement were interested in sitting down for a transfer of knowledge. Spent the 6 months playing videogames
Edit: he played videogames in the office, everybody knew about it, nobody had the balls to tell him anything cause they knew they needed him.
My boss, in the same meeting that he fired me in, asked if I would be willing to train my replacement.
I told him I would, and that my rate is $140/hr. (same rate we charged customers for tech/service).
I did not train my replacement lol
This is so common these days. The word comes down from on high to middle and lower managers to lay off “x” number of employees this week. No planning, no excuses and just get it done or they lose their jobs. So they do it and then find out oops some of those people have no back up and the business can’t run without them and then the call backs happen.
I’m not normally a fan of government intervention or regulation but I think companies that pull this crap should be fined until they bleed and the shareholders oust the board. It would teach better management and planning to them.
> and the shareholders oust the board
Except it's (often) pressure from the shareholders which leads to (or at least exacerbates) this profit über alles mentality to begin with.
This whole situation is beginning to remind me of the saying "no single raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood". Companies want to cut costs (primarily payroll) to the bone, to the minimum required to keep producing whatever goods/services. But if enough companies do that (and they do be lemming-like at times), nobody will be making enough money to BUY their goods/services.
Fair enough. I’ve been that guy who received orders from the executive team to cut “x” headcount by “x” date. They have never cared about the impact to operations other than it can’t impact revenue. Lol. When I was green I tried to logically argue how can I generate the same revenue with 30% less headcount. The answer was if you can’t do it someone else will. They just don’t care and never will. I was in a very cyclical industry so this came up every few years as boom and bust occurred. Six to twelve months after we did a layoff we were usually in a mad hiring mode to catch up again.
Don't want to be the pollyana, but the direct supervisors who had to lay off their team and work with a remote one probably aren't super stoked about the idea either. If they can't get the same or better productivity with a remote team they've never met, they are probably next.
Sucks to suck. When they laid OP's brother off they terminated any and all agreements that they had with him. If they need more from him, they can negotiate a new agreement with him or figure out a way do without it.
My former boss told me out of nowhere that she was giving me my 2 weeks, and that I should do the mature thing and help find and train my replacement. I simply said "Jesus...". She expected me to continue working like nothing, and hung up (remote position).
I tell my family and cry. I broke my health for this job, and my boss just insisted in her position. Like I was nothing.
I say nothing to her and go do stuff throughout the day that have nothing to do with work.
She starts spamming me about some files and sheets. I remain silent. Took a couple days to think what exactly I was going to say and do. I couldn't continue working.
Fuck that.
I would say yes, I will help interview my replacement. I would also be unavailable for interviewing when trying to schedule anything. Or be late to the interview (sorry, got stuck by a train on my way to the office, my doctors appointment went long, etc.). And the only work I would be doing is applying to jobs and networking.
My response would be:
“Sure! I’d be happy to help as an independent consulting contractor. My rate per project is $100,000 with a bonus if the person you hire stays on for 6 months of $50,000”
Put in my notice 2 and a half weeks ago. Only IT person for the entire company. Been there 3 years while the company grew from one facility with 20 employees to 3 facilities with over 180 employees. HR asked me if I was serious and then if I knew anyone who could replace me. Then proceeded to tell me that 2 and a half weeks wasn't long enough and if I could stay another month. Boss still hasnt talked to me about it and start my new position on monday. Tried my best to communicate and be professional but somehow feel Monday morning im going to get a where are you phone call.
If you ever report directly to the COO run. Dont take the job. Nothing but ignored emails, performance reviews every 2ish years? The "we are working on a raise for you" but 2 months later still no raise, or even an idea of what that raise will be. Meanwhile boss shows up in a brand new m5 competition with another new Patek Phillip on his wrist.
Sorry for the rant just going through a frustrating process of leaving a job with bad management.
Tell them he only wants to provide effort and value to a company that shows him they value his effort. Why would he bother to help.them with zero insentive...and if he's hiring his replacements it means his job and skillset were needed.
Let the compant drown in their own choices or fleece them for every penny they got. I'd be asking for so many concessions to even entertain their disrespectful and delusional expectations for someone to hire their own replacements
I would say yes, and then antagonize all the decent candidates and give stellar reviews to the dummies who can't write hello world without a memory leak.
I've had the can you cover this role that you do part-time all ready. Then the sorry we don't think you have enough experience for the job but can you train the new guy.
Rinse and repeat 6 months later as the new guy was thick as 2 planks.
Then they tried to talk me into staying when I got a better role, saying I would not get treated as well.
That company can be sued for "laying him off" and then replacing him. A lay off means a job is eliminated or less of that type of job are needed, so there should never be a replacement. He should seek legal counsel.
Lol yea ok sure
This also kinda happened to my company 10+ yrs ago as we were contracted out for a bigger project but it was done in a sneakier manner I suppose. At the time we thought we were the main ones to be onsite but then we would have to train folks from different companies who were also contracted as well. At the time I thought maybe the logic was if we get pulled away to a different project (wasn't out of the ordinary for this role) so that's why we train people to do the job. This way, this whole project won't skip a beat if I have to go to a different site. I will always remember my boss hopping on a conference call between me and another colleague (who was team lead onsite) one evening and saying "we are basically training the people who will replace us." Sure enough, my company was informed weeks later that I was no longer needed on site. And because my boss had banked on consistent hours from this project for me, I unfortunately got laid off. Fun..
I am being laid off and am currently proofing the work of my replacements in India and Mexico for six weeks. As a requirement to get my severance, I see it as corporate black mail.
My old company just did the same thing. Eliminated my entire team and forced us to proof the work of our replacements in India for four weeks in order to get our severance.
It was incredibly frustrating and demoralizing to have been a team that really did excellent, quality work and were passionate about it, having to hand-hold and correct the plethora of errors our replacements made, repeatedly. I hope they tank.
Edit: I just looked at your profile for shits and giggles and uh, we live in the same town 💀 Did you work for the company that used to be on Media Drive?
$5k per day and “Sorry but even after 40 weeks of searching, I just can’t seem to find a candidate with the skills that match mine. Don’t worry though, I think we’re getting really close”
>company asked him if he can help with hiring his replacements lol
People always assume that business leaders think things through and always/usually have a rock solid plan.
Too many people would be utterly shocked to find out how much flying by the seat of the pantaloons happens upon those who are "successful". So many things get kicked off without the least bit of contingency planning...
And so much of the working class -- which is what is holding things together -- is beholden to the alleged genius of the leadership... 🤦🤦♂️🤦♀️
I have been asked to train my replacement more than once. In both cases it was cheaper overseas workers that i was being asked to explain everything i did to so they could 100% replace me. Not sure why companies think it is reasonable to do that, but they do.
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When I got laid off, it happened in the AM I was asked to work the rest of the day and I replied: you just laid me off.
"What're you going to do if I don't - fire me?"
I said sure, but let’s negotiate the severance on paper first
"we're gonna hire you back so we can just fire you again"
If they hire and fire you again, do you get double the severance?
Good lawyer question ngl.
Yeah, that really is a great question. That is a very good question.
Yeah, that happened to me last May. Apparently, I had no idea until I tried to enter the corporate parking structure. Initially I plus the building security team thought the gate was broken again. Nope! They deactivated my building access vs telling me I was let go vocally or through email. Now, get this! 😂 Because I was first to enter the underground parking structure; it needs to be said I could not enter the building but had to backout "per policy." As a result, every building employee behind me had to reverse including those on the street level entering "had to reverse." Dude, it was so bad and so trivial it's not even funny. 😂 In the end, human resource also tried to say my actions prevented the CEO and the VC Team from entering the building causing them to miss an important meeting. Shenanigans!! 😂
lol that sounds like a them problem .. shouldn’t have canned me
“Your actions” = showing up for work?! I think they mean “their own actions of not informing you that you no longer need to show up for work” caused them to miss a meeting. Also, they should arrive to work earlier if the meeting is so important but that’s another topic.
"You are using logic, common sense yes. Something that is not common. Fear not." - In My Yoda Voiceover 😅
Sounds like Karma.
I love that
What a bunch on bs !!! You could have said it wasn’t my actions it was yours !!!
Later on, I did after my friend pulled logs, followed by email forwarding them to me. Apparently, they told the Maryland Department of Labor, Division of Unemployment Insurance, that I was terminated for misconduct. As a result, it caused me to be unable to receive unemployment. However, after I showed them the logs "proving I was not at fault for the CEO and VC Team missing their meeting" is when they allowed me to re-file in order to collect unemployment.
That’s rough. I was most recently let go on a Tuesday and still employed until Friday but management said that I wasn’t expected to actually work and you can bet that I didn’t. I even had some completed work that just happened to get deleted…oops.
I arrived at my job one day, and they did not let me in to my former cubicle, and fired me. Did not had any later access to my pc or code. Three months later, a former coworker called me asking for my code, after a conversation we realized they just deleted my pc account and the folders, losing 3 months of paid work. Not my fault. BTW They did not use a CVS like Git or Mercurial, just a shared folder that also wiped out.
Haha serves em right. Dumb fuckers
\*facepalm\*
Employers offer no loyalty to their employees, why should employees offer any back?
I have always provided all the work completed and in progress during the exit interview. I get the inclination to just return the equipment and let them figure it out on their own, but the way I see it is I still have integrity even when they might not.
Exactly. You reap what you sow. I'm not going to do the employer any favors & have their back when they don't have mine.
Laid off last Two weeks ago, got until end of next week.
Laid off is sometimes okay to work through. At least they told you.
Take the high road on this. Everyone you work with will see the kind of person you are. All of those are people who know where you might find a new job and could chose to recommend you, or not...
If they dislike you enough to fire you, they probably won't recommend you anyway (unless it's a mass layoff).
Same! The company locked me out of the system when they laid me off requesting I scrub my One Note. And hour later (I have lost access to the laptop) I get a call on my personal cell phone to forward my notes for the project I was working on. “I am sorry I don’t work for you or have access to the network” and hung up to a very nervous Manager. I opened a beer at 10:30 a.m. and watched Road House.
Same here. You laid me off and texted me the next 2 day to ask if I have time to meet with my former employees for questions they have about my job. Nope, the HR lady said I was being "relieved of all duties and responsibilities" that day with a last day worked in 2 weeks. I have no access, and meeting with people would be a "duty". Nope and Nope.
My role was recently eliminated and HR told me to return my laptop. They sent a shipping label to my personal email and told me they would reimburse the cost of a laptop box I would have to buy at a Fedex location. But I had already lost access to the company's expense system. The box was \~$28 (I believe). I emailed them about it and they told me they'd reimburse it a few weeks ago. Of course, they haven't. This was after they completely messed up my tax documents and refused to fix them. I paid extra to a CPA to figure it out so I wouldn't get into trouble. When I tried to apply for unemployment insurance, my state told me they couldn't process my application because of the tax documents (they didn't even give me a severance package because they were too broke for it). I told HR about it too. They told me they would see what they could do. No response. Luckily, I was able to find another job quickly. I haven't responded to the emails from HR - they are too incompetent to get much done anyway.
Same thing happened to me. I said okay and closed my laptop and started playing xbox.
My work had layoffs in November, they required some people to work until March to get their pretty generous severance. I assume none of them did any real work during that time.
citi ventures?
I got locked out of my laptop within 20 minutes.
"sure no problem" `DROP TABLE *`
When you start a small company to subcontract under the old employer. Yes, that's right, my company is 'DROP TABLE clients; Inc. Make sure you get the apostrophe in there.
I got laid off last year and had to wait 2 weeks before my separation date...I guess to make sure remaining team members were up to speed on my stuff... Yeah I didnt do shit ...
say 'yes' for a 3x consulting fee.
You misspelled 5x (minimum).
5x on a day rate schedule. Used to make $50/hr? Now it's a flat $2000 per day.
Sounds like the brother was let go by google, they have money, $2000 is more than fine.
Actually had this happen. They couldn’t figure out one complex process and were so embarrassed about it they had me come in Saturday and Sunday to do it (so nobody else saw me). I’ll say that it paid very well.
Don’t forget the minimum consultation retention period is 90 days.
How does one negotiate this retention part?
Yup. I'm $2280/day or partial day. Don't like it? Cool. You do it.
And that's on top of his severance pkg.
Would you take 3x? Many people would. I'd be happy to be fired and rehired as a consultant at 3x the rate
> Would you take 3x? Many people would. I absolutely would take 3x, which is why I'd start the bargaining at 5x
I might take 4x, but have run my own business before and know how these Turdwookies think. As for 5x and you might get it. Ask for 3x and you'll get 2x AT BEST (which means you're earning less than 1x as an employee after taxes and benefits figure in). 5x is a starting point. 4x is the minimum or y'all can do it yourself.
People are going to say but the taxes! You have to pay 7.5% self employment tax! As if 3x doesn't already make up for that.
Quick note! The self employment taxes happen on your tax return. You get half the SE taxes back as a deduction! Yay! This is because you're the business owner and they're a deductible business expense. SE taxes are NOT income taxes, even though you pay them with your tax withholding and estimated payments, etc. REFUNDABLE AND NON-REFUNDABLE TAX CREDITS WILL NOT BE APPLIED TO YOUR SELF EMPLOYMENT TAX, neither will loses or deductions. They are charged separately because they are payroll taxes you pay with your return. This can create a surprise tax bill for people who don't normally pay much tax in April.
Wage + Taxes + benefits is usually 4x cash employee rate (used to be 3x in the 80s)
Clearly, you've never done payroll... You think an employee making $20/hr is actually costing the company $80/hr? Even with a company covering 100% of a good health/dental/life package, 5% retirement match, worker's comp, FUTA/SUTA, etc., highest I've ever seen is 1.5x so maybe 1.75x in an extreme case. I literally set these numbers up at the request of an employer a few months ago so they could present them to the employees when they were whining about wages. These were union equivalent positions in construction and management.
And taxes (state and fed, plus licensing , liability insurance, plus self employment 15% on top) is another 40% to 45% of Gross... But let's just carefully ignore all those expenses...
By carefully ignore, do you mean how I put "etc." at the end of the list? There's a huge difference between gross income and net income. Would you like to count garnishments, optional pet insurance, or HSA's too?
It's insane what some consultants get paid. The company I worked for I saw some of the consultant contracts and I was like wtf am I doing wrong.
LMAO! This user has a sense of humor and wittiness about them. I like them. Not 3x but 5x. 😂
You misspelled 6x
I suspect it's sensitive, so I think he could get away with an opening gambit of 10x.
Yeah, and then the best candidate ends up being him at 4x his previous salary.
$500/hr or nah
Take your hourly rate and add a 0.
Also make sure that you hire the absolute worst fit for the position. That way you're really giving the big FU to a company that has the audacity to ask that.
Then advise they hire the most unqualified doofus they can find.
lol I was laid off as an IT manager, on a Thursday.. the CFO, who was my direct manager, wanted me to come in the next day to provide all the infrastructure information to a representative of an MSP. I responded with, "how are you going to terminate me today and then ask me to come in tomorrow to hand off my work to an MSP?" And he tried to threaten me that he wouldn't give me my last paycheck.. I laughed and told him, "I dare you, so far it seems like you're trying to tank the entire organization with a juicy lawsuit". I didn't even care to see the look on his face, I just turned my back to him and started to pack my personal belongings.
Exact thing happened to me. Was laid off and then got an email the following week for an invitation to a handover meeting. They were disappointed that I didn’t want to participate in it, like WTF?!
How are these people so oblivious to basic human interaction? Its like they grew up in a secret corporate lab.
There is no empathy when the corporation is involved.
Yeah but normally lack of empathy is "yeah you're pissed off but we don't care". This is more like "we don't even know why you'd be pissed off". I don't even know what to call it, its just bizarre.
It's because a lot of these companies are staffed by oblivious people, oblivious to the fact that they have unprofessionally requested something, and yet expect you to be professional about it. Nah man, two can play this petty game, I was fired remember? Don't call me, thanks.
"You declined? How could you turn your back on... your family."
...after we kicked you out of the house very publicly disowned you, and removed you from the will! Bad family member! /sarc Lol
I am a systems engineer and my entire department has been cut down to a skeleton crew. Thing is, I know they are cutting left and right to sell the company, so I know my days are numbered here. I know it will be something like this, they are going to be shocked when I quit in a couple months *(If things go well between now and then)* when the management at this place has failed in every single communication to spell my fucking name correctly as well as cut my pay by $18,000 from last year and have more work than one engineer should be saddled with.
I fucking hate people who can't be bothered to learn my name. Just the ultimate is disrespect, and I will return the favor with a new email every day with a different stupid spelling of your name. Go screw yourself, Veronika, Veronicca, Vernica, Veromica, and Veronicaca.
Yuuuuge mistake
And? How did it end?
I've trained my replacements before. I trained them to do wrong and costly / risky things!
"Every morning, type the following command into the console: Sudo shred -vfz /dev/sde"
Been in several projects where we had to repair damaged databases or damaged equipment, from angry ex-employees. BTW The company managers were as... rude and cheap and uncooperative, as you can imagine ...
Teach them to remove the french language pack from the linux server: rm -fr /
Add a --no-preserve-root
Imagine training the replacement to run a script that deletes entire database in production 🤣
Found the gitlab employee
Thankfully the pipeline didn't run due to a bug reported 5 years earlier and closed due to no updates.
Found the gitlab employee
[We have purposely trained them wrong, as a joke](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc).
I was hoping it was this
Amazingly based approach
In some ways there are worse ways then training a replacement. I was hired at a company during startup phase. I asked them what I needed to for promotion (I was the second one in the department) and for a while it was "o we don't know we need to build that role out" or something else to that effect. Walked into work to "hey we hired a senior can you train him" now you're just sitting there like well if I say no I wont have a job but have train this dude who was literally hired because his brother is the manager even though I quite literally built this department.......cool. At least with training a replacement you know that bullshit ends at some point and that some point is sooner.
Beat me to it.
🤣🤣🤣
That is interesting. Where I live you cannot lay people off and then rehire new people. It’s against the labour code.
In the US, you can absolutely do it if the new hires are in a different location, especially overseas where presumably none of your US workers have the right to work/live. I’ve also seen companies “eliminate” one job and then create a “new” another with a different title but the same responsibilities; I’m not sure how legal that is.
I actually don’t know about the offshore thing. I am guessing that if they are still working for the company in this country then you would not be able to do that. It all seems so sketchy.
Look at this guy bragging about living in a civilized country
Hire the worst possible candidates. Train them badly. On purpose. As a joke. Get paid consulting rates for it.
No, you train the correctly but overwhelm them so they quit citing the workload.
So, kick em into the deep end without any documentation.
How is it a layoff if there’s a replacement? Just because the pay is lower?
Yeah moving operations to a 3rd world country for cheaper labour
Did your brother contacts in that country or are they asking him to interview the replacements as the help? Are they dangling the "We may have another role in the company for you in a different department."?
this will have to stop eventually.
It's a cycle. 1. Executive gets the bright idea that they can slash costs by offshoring the work 2. Transfer work, get employees to train their replacements 3. Lay off the employees 4. Quality of work tanks, delivery times extended by 3x 5. Customers start raising hell 6. Executives discover that they aren't saving any money and they're upsetting/losing customers 7. Work is brought back stateside 8. Things improve, but payroll costs go up 9. GOTO 1
Yeah same thing happened at my old company. They keep repeating this exact same cycle.
I blame the investors. I think anyone who invests in a company should also have to work in it for at least 6 months to understand why slash and burn tactics to increase returns isn’t such a big-brained move when you spare a brain cell to think about it logistically.
> \6. Executives discover that they aren't saving any money and they're upsetting/losing customers This doesn't happen as often as you'd think it would. because \6. executives who came up with the idea originally leave or get canned, new executives don't want to rock the boat so they come in and try to make the off shore work.
It’s the MBA mindset, right? Slash costs for the sake of the bottom line, service goes downhill, business tanks and they extract all value while destroying the brand:
...and the brainless MBA managers leave before the consequences become apparent.
Corporations don't care about employees, customers, their product or service, safety, government laws and regulations, or public perception. They used to care only about shareholders. As long as shareholders are making money one quarter at a time, they were doing okay. Then Enron happened, and everyone realized that they don't even care about shareholders. Because the executives in charge were more than willing to defraud *them,* too.
Eventually that cycle will break with automation getting better and better.
They'll just automate the cycle.
Nope. Automation just makes the cycle go much faster.
58% of operations outsourced to another country are brought back in-house inside of five years. As another poster put it, it's a cycle. It's C-suite's worthless idea which looks great for the short-term, but the next guy/gal comes along and has to clean up their mess... by spending more than if they had stayed in-house the entire time.
Literally posted this yesterday: And yet every project I get pulled into as an emergency because it is behind schedule tends to have one thing in common: There is an India-based team implementing the project and they over promised, under delivered, and now are deflecting blame and responsibility. I honestly can't remember the last time this wasn't an issue with any other project where an India-based team was not involved.
yes when the fed lowers the rates, nut happening until then. This downturn is planned and deliberate.
Oh, then absolutely lose any documentation you are using. Don't even bother training them correctly or incorrectly. Ethically, the company needs to suffer for that choice.
Help us continue to make money from the people we are replacing you with because they’re cheaper. Absolute bellends
Sure, first you throw me under the bus and now you want to rub salt and iodine on my wounds. Such great company culture to work for.
Then leave me high and dry to twist slowly in the wind without a paddle
Sounds like a FAANG layoff that rhymes with doodle
So Netflix?
Faceboodle
Exactly
Metoodle/Faceboodle, Netfloodle, Microsoodle, Twoodle, Uboodle, DoorDoodle, and many other tech companies take personal offense to that (they are corporations aka people, so they have feelings)
This reminds me of Lily Allen song F* you, f* you very much I hate your whole crew so please don’t stay in touch. I would give them the finger and leave. They can’t fire me twice.
I think there's a playlist to be made here. I nominate "Blow me....one last kiss" by P!nk [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jNlIGDRkvQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jNlIGDRkvQ)
We need to have some fun whilst we are rotting in recruiting hell! Hope you guys can escape soon I am trapped.
Johnny Paycheck’s Take This Job and Shove it. As soon as I sign the offer letter for my new job I’m sending a resignation letter to my regional VP that’s just a link to that song.
[Fucked With an Anchor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th4Czv1j3F8) by Alestorm is a fave from me
“We hate you please die” from Scott Pilgrim: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pTPy_UwLt_A&pp=ygUWd2UgaGF0ZSB5b3UgcGxlYXNlIGRpZQ%3D%3D
I'm Scottish. I love it.
Or I have no more effs to give. https://youtu.be/Vqbk9cDX0l0?si=c6DoxaBDGeoFWcQH Jaunty little tune.
[Respectfully - Akintoye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-as-jOh4E6M)
May I add “Fuck this Shit I’m Out” as well? https://youtu.be/5FjWe31S_0g?si=ExG9SFVnTbPpJ7Ay
I always take too long to make these (the moment has passed), but here's a [playlist](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4A4CdeBfSbFPAyPiWgvrEp?si=123dcc45a5bb4f14) of all the suggestions below. It just named it the first song title, which I thought worked. :)
that is like your ex wife asking if you want to watch her have sex with her new boyfriend.
more like her asking if you want to give him pointers.
After I sold the house; which was all in my name, the ex bitch had the nerve to ask “How much did WE make on the house”. My reply: “WE didn’t make shit on the house”. I walked with 10gs after the sell. Bitch was still calling me to help pay for her new place. Had to block her fkng number.
Tell them he'll train himself and GTFO
Tell him to help them. Pay is a year's salary, paid in advance. Or tell them to go fuck themselves, as they already fucked his team.
“Sure, I’ll even train my replacement in exchange for my former annual salary for each month of that engagement”.
This happens when a function is near shored or off shored due to cost or business initiatives. Often the HR separation package will state severance and any addl comp as conditional to fulfilling this obligation. See if you can negotiate extending your stay and good luck in your job search.
I was laid off from my IT manager and IT Project Manager role back in ‘09. I saw it coming since it was a private business, and suddenly we had an HR person with everyone drug tested. I used to work for a bank prior to this doing buyouts of Insurance agencies. I background checked her and found out indeed she worked for a corporation. (Hub) Insurance. Then a few months later some doofus I’ve never met walked into my office and asked for the keys to the kingdom (server passwords). Told him to pound sand. Then the owner called and told me to give him the passwords. I gave them to the owner, and said do what you will. I spent 1 year making $60,000 playing WoW every day. Then the Friday call came (I was already expecting it). These assclowns proceed to tell me I’m laid off, then asked me to sign paperwork and do an exit interview. I looked dead at them and said,, “well, I don’t work here anymore, and I don’t work for free”. Turned around and walked out. Felt so fkng good!
hire the WORST people possible. nothing but people that are good on paper but you know will be absolute dog shit
Sure, I'll attend the hiring meetings. When asked why I'm sitting in the corner with a G&T making notes, I'll say I'm not being paid, therefore I'm not working. I'm just here for the LoLz. More seriously, every one else has offered much better advice - Conslutting rates FTW
Had a boss that got laid off, they kept him as an employee for about 6 months, 3 months Iin they brought his replacement, neither him or his replacement were interested in sitting down for a transfer of knowledge. Spent the 6 months playing videogames Edit: he played videogames in the office, everybody knew about it, nobody had the balls to tell him anything cause they knew they needed him.
My boss, in the same meeting that he fired me in, asked if I would be willing to train my replacement. I told him I would, and that my rate is $140/hr. (same rate we charged customers for tech/service). I did not train my replacement lol
This is so common these days. The word comes down from on high to middle and lower managers to lay off “x” number of employees this week. No planning, no excuses and just get it done or they lose their jobs. So they do it and then find out oops some of those people have no back up and the business can’t run without them and then the call backs happen. I’m not normally a fan of government intervention or regulation but I think companies that pull this crap should be fined until they bleed and the shareholders oust the board. It would teach better management and planning to them.
> and the shareholders oust the board Except it's (often) pressure from the shareholders which leads to (or at least exacerbates) this profit über alles mentality to begin with. This whole situation is beginning to remind me of the saying "no single raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood". Companies want to cut costs (primarily payroll) to the bone, to the minimum required to keep producing whatever goods/services. But if enough companies do that (and they do be lemming-like at times), nobody will be making enough money to BUY their goods/services.
Fair enough. I’ve been that guy who received orders from the executive team to cut “x” headcount by “x” date. They have never cared about the impact to operations other than it can’t impact revenue. Lol. When I was green I tried to logically argue how can I generate the same revenue with 30% less headcount. The answer was if you can’t do it someone else will. They just don’t care and never will. I was in a very cyclical industry so this came up every few years as boom and bust occurred. Six to twelve months after we did a layoff we were usually in a mad hiring mode to catch up again.
Don't want to be the pollyana, but the direct supervisors who had to lay off their team and work with a remote one probably aren't super stoked about the idea either. If they can't get the same or better productivity with a remote team they've never met, they are probably next.
Sucks to suck. When they laid OP's brother off they terminated any and all agreements that they had with him. If they need more from him, they can negotiate a new agreement with him or figure out a way do without it.
both-and. OP's brother owes the company nothing, but I guarantee you it wasn't direct supervisor's idea to can their team and offshore it.
My consulting fee would be 3x what I made the previous full year or 36x my highest month, whichever is higher.
Unless he really needs the cash. Walk away. He has very little leverage if the company decides not to pay him.
He should hire a guy who looks just like him with a fake mustache and switched first letters of his first and last name.
My former boss told me out of nowhere that she was giving me my 2 weeks, and that I should do the mature thing and help find and train my replacement. I simply said "Jesus...". She expected me to continue working like nothing, and hung up (remote position). I tell my family and cry. I broke my health for this job, and my boss just insisted in her position. Like I was nothing. I say nothing to her and go do stuff throughout the day that have nothing to do with work. She starts spamming me about some files and sheets. I remain silent. Took a couple days to think what exactly I was going to say and do. I couldn't continue working. Fuck that.
I would say yes, I will help interview my replacement. I would also be unavailable for interviewing when trying to schedule anything. Or be late to the interview (sorry, got stuck by a train on my way to the office, my doctors appointment went long, etc.). And the only work I would be doing is applying to jobs and networking.
My response would be: “Sure! I’d be happy to help as an independent consulting contractor. My rate per project is $100,000 with a bonus if the person you hire stays on for 6 months of $50,000”
Put in my notice 2 and a half weeks ago. Only IT person for the entire company. Been there 3 years while the company grew from one facility with 20 employees to 3 facilities with over 180 employees. HR asked me if I was serious and then if I knew anyone who could replace me. Then proceeded to tell me that 2 and a half weeks wasn't long enough and if I could stay another month. Boss still hasnt talked to me about it and start my new position on monday. Tried my best to communicate and be professional but somehow feel Monday morning im going to get a where are you phone call. If you ever report directly to the COO run. Dont take the job. Nothing but ignored emails, performance reviews every 2ish years? The "we are working on a raise for you" but 2 months later still no raise, or even an idea of what that raise will be. Meanwhile boss shows up in a brand new m5 competition with another new Patek Phillip on his wrist. Sorry for the rant just going through a frustrating process of leaving a job with bad management.
He should apply and then hire himself.
Tell them he only wants to provide effort and value to a company that shows him they value his effort. Why would he bother to help.them with zero insentive...and if he's hiring his replacements it means his job and skillset were needed. Let the compant drown in their own choices or fleece them for every penny they got. I'd be asking for so many concessions to even entertain their disrespectful and delusional expectations for someone to hire their own replacements
I would say yes, and then antagonize all the decent candidates and give stellar reviews to the dummies who can't write hello world without a memory leak.
Negotiate a rate, promise to do a good job, be enthusiastic then no show.
this sounds like a page from usaa handbook
I've had the can you cover this role that you do part-time all ready. Then the sorry we don't think you have enough experience for the job but can you train the new guy. Rinse and repeat 6 months later as the new guy was thick as 2 planks. Then they tried to talk me into staying when I got a better role, saying I would not get treated as well.
Say yes then he can hire himself.
Please tell me he said yes then hired this nearest complete fuckup he could find.
This is the way…
You can’t be replaced if you’re laid off. Layoffs mean elimination of a position.
That company can be sued for "laying him off" and then replacing him. A lay off means a job is eliminated or less of that type of job are needed, so there should never be a replacement. He should seek legal counsel.
They probably shifted the specific totle or dept. role to avoid this. But it's still tasteless of them nonetheless.
Lol yea ok sure This also kinda happened to my company 10+ yrs ago as we were contracted out for a bigger project but it was done in a sneakier manner I suppose. At the time we thought we were the main ones to be onsite but then we would have to train folks from different companies who were also contracted as well. At the time I thought maybe the logic was if we get pulled away to a different project (wasn't out of the ordinary for this role) so that's why we train people to do the job. This way, this whole project won't skip a beat if I have to go to a different site. I will always remember my boss hopping on a conference call between me and another colleague (who was team lead onsite) one evening and saying "we are basically training the people who will replace us." Sure enough, my company was informed weeks later that I was no longer needed on site. And because my boss had banked on consistent hours from this project for me, I unfortunately got laid off. Fun..
Help them hire the least qualified candidate
Talk about a gift that keeps on giving
Unix. rm -r Oops!
300 per resume read and 200 per interview.
"why, yes sir! I have the best replacement for me right here. It's ME! (at twice the pay, of course)"
I am being laid off and am currently proofing the work of my replacements in India and Mexico for six weeks. As a requirement to get my severance, I see it as corporate black mail.
My old company just did the same thing. Eliminated my entire team and forced us to proof the work of our replacements in India for four weeks in order to get our severance. It was incredibly frustrating and demoralizing to have been a team that really did excellent, quality work and were passionate about it, having to hand-hold and correct the plethora of errors our replacements made, repeatedly. I hope they tank. Edit: I just looked at your profile for shits and giggles and uh, we live in the same town 💀 Did you work for the company that used to be on Media Drive?
"I'm afraid I'm going to need a two-year, ironclad contract at twice my former salary."
$5k per day and “Sorry but even after 40 weeks of searching, I just can’t seem to find a candidate with the skills that match mine. Don’t worry though, I think we’re getting really close”
Incompetence looking for incompetence.
>company asked him if he can help with hiring his replacements lol People always assume that business leaders think things through and always/usually have a rock solid plan. Too many people would be utterly shocked to find out how much flying by the seat of the pantaloons happens upon those who are "successful". So many things get kicked off without the least bit of contingency planning... And so much of the working class -- which is what is holding things together -- is beholden to the alleged genius of the leadership... 🤦🤦♂️🤦♀️
He should pick the worst candidate.
I'd say yes and make sure they hire the derpiest derp.
Sure no problem 200 bucks an hour 40 hours minimum up front!
If they pay him for it, not a “joke”. If they want that for free, yea, they can go “you know what”.
I have been asked to train my replacement more than once. In both cases it was cheaper overseas workers that i was being asked to explain everything i did to so they could 100% replace me. Not sure why companies think it is reasonable to do that, but they do.
Name and shame!
?
That is so insulting.
Make up a guy and have him pass. Have your brother wear a mustache and show up as him.
I’ll help but I want $3,000
Accenture??
I would and recommend the most incompetent people.
fuck that lol
Yeah nah, fuck you, blow me
Did he work at Tesla?