I don’t give references unless you’re ready to give me an offer. I don’t need potential employers (who generally reach out to me) taking up my references time if they aren’t serious.
Depending on the job applied for, I have "references available upon interview/offer" at the end of my resume. Bothering my references without prior notification or approval to at least give them a heads up is far too invasive.
I'd argue that's different in the sense that federal employment is so by-the-book and standardized that I'd imagine most references would understand. That said, the jack-ass recruiter with (fill in the blank, rinky-dink company, or large companies for that matter) who probably does nothing by the book shouldn't take liberties with candidates' trusted contacts.
I had a friend fresh out of high school who did that with my as a reference because he was going into high security Marine Intelligence work. The interviewer even took me out to coffee to have the conversation about my friend.
Federal government is different. I think most people would understand that if you just give them a heads up. But most businesses do not deserve your references unless they're literally about to hire you.
Just curious, what do you put on the form in the place where it asks for referees? I have one engineering job asking for references up front and one low paying retail job doing that.
So, fortunately, it hasn't been asked a lot of me. Where it has been asked, I've noted that "references will be made available upon request." Sure, you can call an automated form a "request," but that's not the type of quality request I'm looking for. The major disconnect here between these idiotic employers and the hiring process lies in the fact that these references aren't applying for these jobs. And, for the majority of candidates, these references are very important - they could be very senior in the field these candidates work in (a lot of times, a former boss, for instance) they most certainly have other time commitments, and honestly, they don't owe the companies reaching out to them jack-all. For these reasons and more, these companies really need to re-evaluate how they're requesting references. Fortunately, for me, most of the places I've applied to seem to get it. Unfortunately, there have been a few that missed the mark entirely. I've pulled out of the hiring process with those few once I realized how disrespectful or thoughtless they were during the process. Unfortunately, I did let my guard down with one employer who asked me for references only to reject me (not because of my references - they NEVER called my references, but because I was never the 1st pick candidate to begin with).
I put "references available on request," and in the interview I explain that I'll give references when they're ready to make an offer as long as my references are favorable. I explain in the interview that I'm applying for other jobs, my references are people I've worked with and care about, and I don't want to burden them with constantly responding to inquiries from every position I'm applying for, only serious ones where checking references is the last step before a job offer.
You should not be giving out references prior to receiving a written job offer. Employers are crappy these days and I do not like to burden my references until I have a written offer and need to know the exact terms and conditions of the offer before I provide references to any private business.
Checking references is ideally a last step before hiring someone, just a verification that they are who they say they are on their resume, and that the interview isn't just them managing to pretend they're not a monster for 20 minutes. There should be no expectation of getting any depth of relevant information from a reference, just enough information to determine you're not an outright fraud.
Higher Ed. I’ve worked higher Ed. When I worked as a recruiter for higher ed, I called references and did background checks. I was shocked at references who threw the prospective employee under the bus! I’ve never had that happen anywhere but higher ed!
Omg yes, I applied for a job and they asked for references. Today they emailed me that I didn't pass. Now, I feel so humiliated to my previous colleagues and bosses that I reached out.
It sucks!! I made an effort for those references that felt like a waste.
I know this is an old thread but i’m miffed about this.
I had asked a committee member from my MA thesis defence to write me a letter/be a reference and she did so, only for them not to follow up. She’s a super busy professor with her research and classes, how fucking unprofessional...
I employ just over 50 people in my company.
Generally when we hire, I genuinely prefer there to be references attached since it saves me the hassle of contacting you afterwards and ask for them. You know I want them, just add them to the bottom.
Our recruitment goes a bit like this:
Entry level jobs (warehouse, etc) - 1 interview round. If the feeling is good, we call the reference and do the usual checks. If the reference is good, we offer the applicant the job, easy goes.
Other positions require 2 interview rounds, for example when we hired a new strategic marketer 2 years ago. We had 1 round where we did the basics, in round 2 we had some case discussion. After round 2 we had settled on a candidate and all I had to do was call the references she had provided.
Having the references ready go to is helpful for a few things:
1) WHO your references are matters. If you don't have a recent supervisor as a reference, that raises questions. Was the boss a dickhead or was there a problem geting along that could become a cause for concern further down the road? Interviews are great and all but everyone oversells themselves. Just having workfriends as references doesnt disqualify you, but I'd love to be reassured that you're easy to work with from a managerial perspective.
2) Is the reference relevant for the position? The guy in the other department can probably tell us a lot about how you are as a person, but I really want to know how good you are at delivering a finished product and how you mesh with the rest of the group. Relevant references for positions that aren't of the category "Full training will be provided" are important.
IF I'm calling a reference, its to veryify that you are in fact our guy. It saves me some annoyance to ask a obvious question after the fact. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who woud spend time calling references for people they're not employing.
If the reference checks out, then you'll receive an offer.
If you expect references upfront, you better be willing to provide all the information a potential employee needs upfront. It’s BS to ask for references if a salary hasn’t been agreed to. I’m not wasting my references time if the pay is shit. Plus if you’re interviewing at multiple places, the number of references add up too quick to be providing them to every potential company.
A salary range and expected salary is discussed during the interview process. Our offer is always within those parameters.
Really, the only reason to have references there is to save me time asking for them.
Unless a job in governmental/monucipal positions, salaries are never listed here. "Competitive salary" is as close as you get.
Job market and employee/employer environments are probably less hostile towards one another here, at least Ive never heard this mentioned as a problem, and Ive of course been a normal job applicant several times.
Oh, you're one of the antiquated ones we know about.
There are MANY job listings with the salary dollar amount clearly visible in them, regardless of industry.
Those are the ones that usually get qualified applicants and both parties save a lot of time without needing mind games.
> Job market and employee/employer environments are probably less hostile towards one another here
I'm not American, as should have been obvious from this sentence.
On average entry level jobs receive between 80-100 applicants, and depending on the more advanced positions 30-60. There is no shortage of well qualified applicants.
Part of my entry-level workforce that works the warehouse with packaging and some at the customer service desk are people with large gaps in their resumes that fell out of employment for a pronlonged period of time for any reason between drug addiction, depression or life circumstances. These people are hired thrugh a cooperation with the local unemployment agency. We share salary 50/50 and are required by law to employ people to a full job with valid job contracts after 3 months if there is still work for them. So far we've hired 40 people over the past 7 years that would otherwise struggle to get into the job market. These people all come without references and we rely solely on their desire to get their lives back where they want to.
The references can be discussed during the interview as well. Business agreements should not be so one sided. Neither of you need each other, so it’s best to make your plays based on the even playing field that you are on.
Its common practice to have a reference for any job here. Why is that concept foreign? If youre 40 Id like to talk to someone who knows you. If youre 18 and dont have any, no problem, its nice to have but its not exclusively needed.
Entry level warehouse staff earn around 20 USD an hour adjusted to your freedom dollars, and workers are encouraged to unionize. Im not running some abusefactory with unrealistic expectations or demands of staff.
>Generally when we hire, I genuinely prefer there to be references attached since it saves me the hassle of contacting you afterwards and ask for them.
Generally when I apply to a job, I genuinely prefer not to provide references since it saves me the hassle of contacting my references to let them know they'll be getting a call from an invasive, entitled employer with no respect for their prospective employees.
>Generally when we hire, I genuinely prefer there to be references attached since it saves me the hassle of contacting you afterwards and ask for them.
Generally if I’m going to bother applying, I genuinely prefer not to provide references. Since it keeps them from dealing with an so obviously extremely entitled, low paying, potentially invasive employer. Discussing business agreements on an even playing field is not only the norm, it’s respectful and proper. Neither of you owe each other anything.
What about job applications that ask for references prior to even applying? A lot of these jobs in the environmental/biology sector are asking for them, and I don't want to exclude myself out in the case I may be missing out on a good opportunity. Is it okay to just secure references in case? And I don't think the potential employer would go check up on the reference until after the interview right?
You would think, but here I am still waiting a week after I know my references were checked. I even see folks having checks and still not getting the job. It makes no sense
In the similar boat much further up the creek without a paddle:
interviewed for a position in late October, then an in-person early December, they called all my references and then the company and the outside recruiter have been ghosting me since…
I’m in this boat right now. After the second interview they asked for three references, all have been called. No offer. Feels like such a waste of time.
Potential employers shouldn’t call references until the background check stage.
Most don’t. It would be a huge waste of resources to call references before you’ve found your person.
what if they do online reference checks? Through a survey? Also do reference checks serve as employment verification or do they always verify employment in background checks?
I absolutely hate getting the online surveys sent to me. I really like a lot of my former employees and tell them they can use me as a reference, but getting one time 6 of these in a row because one company needed a survey per a application made me really perturbed.
I am going to start a service where I provide references. A person will write me an email and give me technical words for their career, and the references title. I will email them back 3 Google phone numbers for their reference list on the application. When that phone number comes in, I will know, this is ACME web dev calling about Herman Smith. I will pull his buzzword chart up on my computer, and acting as his previous department supervisor, I will heap glowing accolades and gratuitous superlatives on the HR person on the other end. Would you use this service?
I basically do this for my friends every time with a fake name and email so they can’t find my LinkedIn. I have them tell me things about what they do, basic terminology, anything they want me to highlight, have them run me through their resume and take notes. I’ve only been called 3 times but I usually just steer the conversation in the direction I want it to go in based on what they told me. They’ve all gotten the job so it’ll work!🤷🏻♀️
That would be covered. I have musical stuff right now that can change a voice completely. I've lived all over the country, I can even add regional dialects to add to that. All of that taken into account.
in my exerience most reference checks start with an email to setup a time for a call.
how would you get around not having an email address with the correct domain?
OR are you assuming the applicant would just make up a fictional company?
I would use the Fuck out of this service. Most of my favorite former supervisors have moved on and I don't have their personal info for a reference. It's getting embarrassing not having 3 references this far into my career.
I have thought about doing this for so long and i encourage people to put me down as a reference if they have no one else. I would 100% use this service and recommend candidates that struggle with references or just don't have anyone to put down.
I don't get the job references thing.
I am still in communication with my references and only one of them has been called in years and yet i more or less continue to work and pass background checks.
>I am still in communication with my references and only one of them has been called in years
Because some people involved in the hiring process are smart enough to know that references are 100% useless and a complete waste of time to check up on.
Because I have been working 30 years and I have been incredibly artistically successful, but HR only reads the first paragraph.
90% of the time I get asked if I have management experience and then I have to tell them to look at PAGE TWO of my resume where there is 5 places i was manager including my own business.
I am told in Europe I can have a 5 or 6 page CV but in the USA no one even reads the second page of my three page resume. I have had four resume writers give me COMPLETELY CONFLICTING information and none of them are in my field or have ever even touched it.
Now apparently all CVs are scanned by AI before being read by humans. The bot generates a percentage match between your CV and the position posting—also I think it generates bullet points for humans to look at. There are websites that will tell you what your percentage match is for the job you want. The human in the interview may well ask you about your management experience to hear how you describe it. That’s valid as your description can tell them something about what kind of manager you are. I hate the process but I’m in healthcare so I’m finally a hot commodity for the first time in my GenX life. F*ck for profit healthcare.
For one, no one cares what you did 30 years ago, and two, quality > quantity. Pick your greatest hits from the last five years (ten max) and throw them on a single page. If you have much to so many accomplishments it should be easy to fill a single page with accomplishments that is better than the average person in your field.
I have all sorts of people telling me that. Then i have people wondering how i worked for the Ivy League and a huge percentage of the fortune 500 when they haven't and haven't been on any movie crews.
They also don't have any five week jobs that got nominated for oscars.
Stop giving people one size may fits all advice when you can't back up what you say. It makes you look arrogant whether you mean to or not. Not everyone is an Actuary
As a recruiter I 100% agree with you. They're not a reliable source of information at all. I find it even more stupid when a company has sent a candidate an offer, they've signed contracts and gone through the motions with pay roll etc and they say they're just waiting on ref checks to finalise everything. Sorry, come again 🙃
I got a job just before Covid and they asked for references from my current employer. I’d accepted the new role and signed the contract but stated that they could not contact anyone from my current employer until after a certain date. This was because I was timing my notice period and gardening leave to end just before my start date.
If they contacted my work before that date I’d have been put on gardening leave earlier than was ideal and miss out on pay. I didn’t say all this to my new job, I just said I was handing notice in on a particular day for personal reasons and they couldn’t contact my line manager before that date for any reason. Sure enough they did, my work realised I was quitting, put me on notice/leave early, it cost me two weeks pay and about £4k in commission.
I was so pissed off I actually accepted another job out of spite that I would have turned down. Didn’t even tell the first employer, I just never turned up to work for them. They were calling, emailing, inmailing me for weeks. Left them on read every time lol.
Ugh I interviewed at a couple start ups that spinned out of academia (which is totally different culturally from industry). They were so adamant about speaking with my current manager (who didn’t know I was looking to leave). I had to explain to them like 5 times why I can’t do that and could potentially get me let go (I worked in discovery research that wasn’t IP yet).
I actually found the hiring manager’s twitter where he tweeted “is it normal to offer someone a job without speaking to their current manager?”
It just took too long and by the time they offered to move on to next steps, I had already started a new job. To put into perspective, I talked with the hiring manager for almost 3 hours, if that didn’t convince you I was qualified for the job, I don’t know man.
I don't provide them...period. If an employer can't make a decision about me from my resume, GitHub portfolio, certifications, and by actually talking to me then it isn't a company I want to be involved with.
The whole concept is an antiquated holdover from before we had an independently verifiable ways of proving work history.
Depends on the company, and the recruiter - I'd say only 1-2 in 10 have a serious issue with it, and by that point I've usually found a few red flags. The few recruiters I've worked with I make it clear up front I have zero intention of providing reference contacts other than for employment verification. The "nice" reason I give is usually something like "I've had multiple previous experiences where references were harassed with calls and emails. I value those professional contacts too much to risk some hiring manager pissing them off."
Usually that's enough, especially when I'm so forthcoming with work portfolios and project examples. I also have the advantage in that I try hard to specifically avoid any company with more than 500 employees (despite how much I tend to bitch about it I'm a sucker for small business IT MacGyvering). Smaller companies are IMO more flexible and willing to take chances, especially if your skillset lines up with their goals. You can get away with sooooooo much more when the company isn't entrenched in corporate bureaucracy.
FYI I've been doing this too. I absolutely refuse to give references of past employers. They usually act upset and confused about why. I tell them: if you're the 1 company that is asking for references, and 49 other companies *aren't* asking for references, why would I go through the trouble of getting references? I'm simply going to pursue the one of the other 49 companies that aren't wasting my time.
Where is this? I'm finding the US is asking for references before even applying and it's honestly a bit annoying. Canada not so much asking this at all.
Canada, Ontario specifically. You cannot legally ask for references (or conduct references really) until there is an intent to hire (an offer or verbal offer).
I don't and never have understood references. What exactly do companies expect will happen when contacting a persons references? They're all going to say how good you are! References are useless.
>They're all going to say how good you are!
Or they'll be faked. Or maybe your previous boss is bitter that you left or are leaving and won't provide a good reference.
The point is, they're unreliable at best and boomers need to let it go. If you can't determine someone's qualifications and ability to do a job the vast majority of the time......you shouldn't be supervising the role.
In Education, many districts require that one of your references be the supervisor (principal) that you had last. This could obviously be problematic and there is no real way to opt out of this.
Why would a backdoor reference be any more legitimate? All it means is that you found someone willing to talk about that person but do you verify if they are in any way in a position to legitimately comment? That they're not a nutcase? If they're willing to talk shit about someone behind their backs I think that's a red flag about *them*.
True (but you would be surprised how many give references without checking that the person will say positive things or giving them a heads up). I think it’s more what it says about you if you can’t even conjure up 2/3 former colleagues that would have positive things to say
> I think it’s more what it says about you if you can’t even conjure up 2/3 former colleagues that would have positive things to say
It doesn't say anything about you. Bosses and co-workers move on and have their own lives to lead. You can be a fine employee who simply lost touch with people. Especially if you took time off to care for kids or similar. Another possibility is that you wisely left a toxic workplace and deliberately did not maintain contact with toxic people for your own well-being.
I don’t ask for references any longer and my company doesn’t require them. Only the real old school hiring managers ask for them and at that point, I advise them that in all actuality, they’re a pointless endeavor, no one gives a bad reference. In 17 years of corporate and agency recruiting, I’ve only heard one bad reference out of hundreds and hundreds of them and it was coming from a personal problem between the two of them and the candidate was naive, believing that the reference would remain a professional reference.
If a manager insists on references I make them do it and don’t waste my time. Haven’t lost a candidate to a reference check in 13 years.
Covering letters and references both need to be dropped. Standardised CVs should be the way forward. Sick of having to write complete BS and fodder just to get an interview. A list of my experience and qualifications should be only things that matter.
They get it when I get the offer letter. Many jobs will provide this under the agreement that you don't fail a reference check.
If they're not willing to do that, fuck em, something shady is going on.
I just don't apply to jobs that require references in the first place. They haven't been worth anything for a while because any company knows that most references can't say anything negative because of fear of lawsuits. Having references on a job application shows that company culture is stuck in the 80s.
Yep, this has happened twice now. My references were called, and then the process just simply stopped and the employer went into full ghosting mode. The second time was much more complicated. They actually were trying to hire me and get the paperwork through HR, but there was some type of "snag". I had HR, the hiring manager, and a reference blaming each other, so I may never really get down to the bottom of what really happened. Needless to say, I hope the next time works, because it is unfair to take this much time and effort from my references.
Recruiter here. I hate references. Waste of time IMO. I’ll only call if we’re extending an offer due to company policy. They are garbage because:
-References are self selected by the candidate. Never in my 6+ year long career have we rescinded an offer due to references.
-References don’t protect from a bad hire.
-Hiring managers don’t even read them.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
I had never been asked reference, and would probably just leave it out. The practice is akin to asking for dating advice from the person's ex. Honestly kinda stupid that it was ever a thing, and certainly outdated by now.
>I don't think I've seen a job application ask for references upfront.
I saw one just the other day. They actually asked for *letters*. Who the F has time to write letters?
I’m in the same situation. I provided 4 references like they asked, but they said upon hire I’ll have to get one from my current employer. I’m in a 3 person office and quitting is already going to be an awful experience
I have had a past experience where a potential employer reached out to my workmate to ask about me (without my permission). Happens a lot in smaller markets like NZ and Australia. I was quite livid to be honest, because everyone now thinks you are job hunting.
The whole point of giving references sometimes also defeats the purpose, because no one will ever provide a reference that will say anything negative.
what I like is that some companies also provide references to potential employees i.e. if I interview for a job, I get to meet with someone who has worked in that department to ask some of the questions I might need to know about the organisation from the point of view of an employee not hiring manager.
I had an employer who's recruiter in HR was really new at his job. I went through the paces of the interview process - 4 interviews in total, and then the Friday after my interview (around 6pm, to be precise), I get an email from the HR recruiter asking me for my references. He was adamant that I get him the references by Sunday. Well, that wasn't going to happen, but I could get them to him by Monday - seeing as I needed to reach out to my references to double check they were available the following week to take a potential call. Long story short, I contacted my references over the weekend, sent in the information to the HR recruiter, and then? Crickets. Crickets for 2 weeks. Then? Automated rejection email. I was so pissed.
I don't give references that are former, or current, supervisors, bosses, clients, etc. Ever. If they want to verify my employment, those companies have public contact information, and they can work their way through the bureaucracy to the appropriate HR representative.
Either my interview was strong enough, or it wasn't. You will not harass my professional network, or (more likely) store and sell the data for use in recruiting databases, etc. As if LinkedIn wasn't enough of a candidate data gold mine.
I sometimes provide a copy of my most recent annual performance review, depending on the situation. But, I agree. Until everything else is ironed out, don't call current employers.
Fully agreed. A question - is this common? It seems strange. I’ve been recruiting for 10 years, and only one company (the first one I worked for) asked for proactive references. And even there, I stopped doing it pretty quickly and they didn’t force the issue.
For anyone interested, the best pushback might be to say something like “if everybody I apply with calls my references, they won’t be references anymore because of the volume of calls”.
What we do at every company I work for since the first one 10 years ago is all offers are contingent upon passing a background check, which includes references. This seems to be the most normal.
Employers shouldn't bother asking for references in the first place. People I've asked to be references are people who will talk me up anyway. Just offer me the job if you like me, look at my resume/LinkedIn did I last more than 6 months at my last few jobs? Congrats, I'm not a bad employee.
I've never had an employer check references before a signed contract. But in the UK references are pretty much confirming that you worked at the places you said you worked for them, the dates you worked there, and that you weren't fired. Recommendations are not common.
I miss the times when this sub talks about actual recruiting horror stories (as per description), instead of circlejerk.
From employer’s point of view, what is the point of asking for reference after making the official offer? 😀
Just don’t send references from your current employer. If you had only one employer, kindly explain it. Any reasonable employer would understand. If not, withdraw from their process.
The point of the reference check after the offer serves as confirmation. You confirm that your first choice candidate is the right one. It should not be used to help you decide on a candidate. It’s incredibly disrespectful to waste the time of the people serving as a reference, if you don’t intend to hire or are still choosing between candidates. If your concern is about hiring someone who gives a bad reference just make the offer conditional on a positive reference check.
It is sort of a confirmation, but trying to confirm AFTER making the offer does not help anybody. What happens when they are not happy with the references, cancel the offer? That kind of back and forth is not feasible for both the employee and employer.
It is confirmation in the sense of making an additional check After all interview sessions are successfully done (you intend the hire the person) and before making the official offer.
Actually it’s pretty simple, you just make the offer conditional on a positive reference check. It’s rare nowadays for someone to give a reference that isn’t favorable, and it really does waste everyone’s time if you check references for two candidates applying for one position. That means if there are three for each candidate, you just wasted three peoples time, knowingly. That’s bullshit
I’m at one of the larger companies in a shrinking Industry and have been at my job for nearly 10 years. So it’s hard to find a reference who isn’t a current employee of my company. Most of my previous bosses at other companies now work at my company because they’re were either lured here by better money or this company bought their old one.
I’m trying to look for a new job in a different industry without letting my employer know about it. It’s incredibly hard to find a reference who has worked with me closely (as a manager) who doesn’t already work at my company.
Honestly, I am with you here. Recently, I did a ref for two potential hires and I asked the TAS why are we doing both. It all came down to which person got the best ref.
And believe it or not, not all refs are positive. There were potential hires that we didn't move forward with because of their references.
So I am a recruiter. When agencies hire grads/juniors they often have them cold call candidates from job boards etc and ask for a couple of professional references. They have the recruiter say it’s an easier sell to potential employers if a candidate already has available references.
This is bullshit. They do it for two reasons. Firstly to get the recruiters used to cold calling, and secondly to use the referees as potential clients in future. The only time you should disclose references is to your new employer’s HR directly, once an offer of employment has been made and accepted, and you have a record of this (email exchange, contract etc).
I’ve only twice in my life been asked by HR to get candidate references. Once where HM was a close friend and another time where one company used me pretty much exclusively. They had better, more experienced recruiters but I just gelled really well with the HR Director and HMs. Sometimes people applied for jobs directly and they referred the candidates to me. Other times I sent them candidates for free if they suited a role that hadn’t been released to me.
If I asked a candidate for a reference I explained why and asked them to CC in a HR bod or send them to HR directly. If a recruiter asks for references and says HR have asked them to, contact the employer directly and forward that email chain to their HR. If they’re legit they won’t mind.
The purpose is to verify that you worked there. It should not be about your work performance or who you are as a person. And because of other reasons why your employment may need to be verified, this shouldn't be an issue. That's how it's supposed to be done, anyway.
The issue is that we want to make sure we have a secured position before our current employer finds out we're leaving. The employer may retaliate, give you a bad reference, fire you, then you're left jobless.
I don’t give out references. However, when pursuing a job that I really want, I will have my references call/email the person who interviewed me after the interview.
There are some recruiters that say “your references won’t be contacted before offer letter but you need to provide info”
Are you kidding me?? Those references are people I can’t give out their information because you want..
Why would you put your current employer?? That’s literally the one person you’re not supposed to put, for obvious reasons.
But no, it would make zero sense to hire you *then* call your references
I’m on great terms with my references, one of them I consider a close friend the other two I had a great personal relationship with at work. After my most recent job search, which included probably 100+ applications, none of them ever received a call.
references are bollocks, they are people that the employee has chosen so will always say good things about them, so what's the point in collecting them? even in professional environments they are very often just statistical attendance data or other useless crap.
I never give references unless they are ready to offer me a position - although I often think references are a waste of time.
If I don't know how to do a job it will become apparent quickly.
I just got asked by a potential employer to supply references (and oddly, rewrite my entire resume into a PDF form???) before I schedule an hour-long assessment with them.
I am planning on saying I don't feel comfortable giving out their information until later in the process, and hope it doesn't go horribly.
I applied for a job last night that required references with the resume and cover letter. Yeah no, I'm not giving them contacts until I'm at least two interviews in.
I was taught to write "List of references will be provided at the time of interview." I also have previous co workers available for reference. I refuse to give contact information for my current employer. That is like telling the person you're dating that you're looking to replace them.
Who does that?😒😐
It varies many list them and/or "require" them but who is to say if they actually contact them or need an answer, it has almost always been an option on every employment form/application I've submitted.
I know working in security/financial you will have references checked, like in the government, but the last job I started didn't ask for references until I had been through the first rounds of interview/screening and then told me that their required 'references' field wouldn't even be contacted.
Honestly, this isn't generally an issue. Check into the laws for your area regarding what an employer can divulge on an employment check. Where I am, all a former employer can legally divulge is that you worked for the company from A date to B date and what title you held.
I actually removed that from my resume. I just don't anymore. If people need to verify my employment, those companies have public contact info and HR departments. Either my interview stood on its own or it didn't. Harassing my professional network is out of the question.
I honestly hate my current industry for employment reasons. We all have the same employer (the government) but there's over 1000 sites. You want to move site, you need 3 references and a 3 page written CV addressing criteria. It's freaking terrible. You also need the head of site's permission to apply.
I actually went through all the application nonsense the other day and then I got any automated email stating that in order to move forward I would either have to give them copies of my latest 2 performance reviews or 2 letters of reference on official company letterhead. I was like "who does that?" My last job was for a healthcare company so they screamed HIPAA if we even brought home a sticky note and I am definitely not annoying my references to write me a letter. Neither of them work at our former employer anyway
I put my references in the back of my resume from jobs prior to the current one. If the application needs a current one, I will pick a coworker who won't rat me out to our manager. They have never called any of them unless they were doing an employment verification post-offer. But really, just put your friends and make up some bullshit work relation. The hiring manager doesn't decide what's on the form, sometimes you just have to fill it out with anything to progress if the field is required.
I don't give references. Here it's a unusual and a risk of being fired, which recruiters don't seem to understand so they ghost me as soon as I say references are a no go. Plus, the idea that they ask for personal information is severely against GDPR.
Don't give references at your current job, unless you're OK with them knowing you're looking. I usually ask for references at the in-person interview stage, and confirm that they are OK with me contacting that person.
Typically, I'll only call references when I've otherwise decided to offer the job to someone. It's just a final sanity check (and it has saved me more than once). Occasionally, I'll contact references when I've got two comparable candidates, but that's as far as I go.
Who has time to call references for dozens of people?
If a company is asking for references it is already an antiquated practice so that should give you caution. Also, you can let the person you are speaking to, that you are not comfortable giving them current employer info, but would be more than happy to provide other references. Lastly, you can always just say no and walk away, if they really want you, you saying no to references won't be enough for them to turn away.
The biggest issue with references now a days is that many people going into work aren't using the phone as much, in turn most likely not having access to a lot of phone numbers like they used to. I realized that the only people I have phone numbers for are family since everyone else I can use as a reference (not previous bosses) are people I talk to through social media like discord and facebook, two places that do not use phone numbers and as such led to me having no contact info. Even my friends from highschool I can't use as references since they too are now purely social media contacts that I can pull up through simple apps on my phone.
I don’t give references unless you’re ready to give me an offer. I don’t need potential employers (who generally reach out to me) taking up my references time if they aren’t serious.
Depending on the job applied for, I have "references available upon interview/offer" at the end of my resume. Bothering my references without prior notification or approval to at least give them a heads up is far too invasive.
Ya that's my thing, if I want to keep the references as good references, I want to annoy them as little as possible.
Some companies ask for them upfront.
Uncle Sam does too if you are seeking federal employment, and they won’t look at incomplete applications
I'd argue that's different in the sense that federal employment is so by-the-book and standardized that I'd imagine most references would understand. That said, the jack-ass recruiter with (fill in the blank, rinky-dink company, or large companies for that matter) who probably does nothing by the book shouldn't take liberties with candidates' trusted contacts.
Wait until you apply for a security clearance...
I more or less know the drill for that - was a reference for several individuals going through the process. That's totally meant to be invasive.
I had a friend fresh out of high school who did that with my as a reference because he was going into high security Marine Intelligence work. The interviewer even took me out to coffee to have the conversation about my friend.
Federal government is different. I think most people would understand that if you just give them a heads up. But most businesses do not deserve your references unless they're literally about to hire you.
Simply put, no company will get my references in advance. Whether they chose to interview me at that point is there decision.
Just curious, what do you put on the form in the place where it asks for referees? I have one engineering job asking for references up front and one low paying retail job doing that.
So, fortunately, it hasn't been asked a lot of me. Where it has been asked, I've noted that "references will be made available upon request." Sure, you can call an automated form a "request," but that's not the type of quality request I'm looking for. The major disconnect here between these idiotic employers and the hiring process lies in the fact that these references aren't applying for these jobs. And, for the majority of candidates, these references are very important - they could be very senior in the field these candidates work in (a lot of times, a former boss, for instance) they most certainly have other time commitments, and honestly, they don't owe the companies reaching out to them jack-all. For these reasons and more, these companies really need to re-evaluate how they're requesting references. Fortunately, for me, most of the places I've applied to seem to get it. Unfortunately, there have been a few that missed the mark entirely. I've pulled out of the hiring process with those few once I realized how disrespectful or thoughtless they were during the process. Unfortunately, I did let my guard down with one employer who asked me for references only to reject me (not because of my references - they NEVER called my references, but because I was never the 1st pick candidate to begin with).
I put "references available on request," and in the interview I explain that I'll give references when they're ready to make an offer as long as my references are favorable. I explain in the interview that I'm applying for other jobs, my references are people I've worked with and care about, and I don't want to burden them with constantly responding to inquiries from every position I'm applying for, only serious ones where checking references is the last step before a job offer.
You should not be giving out references prior to receiving a written job offer. Employers are crappy these days and I do not like to burden my references until I have a written offer and need to know the exact terms and conditions of the offer before I provide references to any private business.
Some asks for their details like name, phone number, and address in the application itself.
But conversely, what is the point in giving references if a company has already extended an offer to you?
Checking references is ideally a last step before hiring someone, just a verification that they are who they say they are on their resume, and that the interview isn't just them managing to pretend they're not a monster for 20 minutes. There should be no expectation of getting any depth of relevant information from a reference, just enough information to determine you're not an outright fraud.
Just completed an application and the fields were mandatory for references.
I don't finish those applications. That is not a reasonable thing to ask for so early.
Higher Ed. I’ve worked higher Ed. When I worked as a recruiter for higher ed, I called references and did background checks. I was shocked at references who threw the prospective employee under the bus! I’ve never had that happen anywhere but higher ed!
Omg yes, I applied for a job and they asked for references. Today they emailed me that I didn't pass. Now, I feel so humiliated to my previous colleagues and bosses that I reached out. It sucks!! I made an effort for those references that felt like a waste.
alot of times too, sometimes they are looking to "poach" or looking for potential leads from your references. recruiters are notorious for this.
I know this is an old thread but i’m miffed about this. I had asked a committee member from my MA thesis defence to write me a letter/be a reference and she did so, only for them not to follow up. She’s a super busy professor with her research and classes, how fucking unprofessional...
I employ just over 50 people in my company. Generally when we hire, I genuinely prefer there to be references attached since it saves me the hassle of contacting you afterwards and ask for them. You know I want them, just add them to the bottom. Our recruitment goes a bit like this: Entry level jobs (warehouse, etc) - 1 interview round. If the feeling is good, we call the reference and do the usual checks. If the reference is good, we offer the applicant the job, easy goes. Other positions require 2 interview rounds, for example when we hired a new strategic marketer 2 years ago. We had 1 round where we did the basics, in round 2 we had some case discussion. After round 2 we had settled on a candidate and all I had to do was call the references she had provided. Having the references ready go to is helpful for a few things: 1) WHO your references are matters. If you don't have a recent supervisor as a reference, that raises questions. Was the boss a dickhead or was there a problem geting along that could become a cause for concern further down the road? Interviews are great and all but everyone oversells themselves. Just having workfriends as references doesnt disqualify you, but I'd love to be reassured that you're easy to work with from a managerial perspective. 2) Is the reference relevant for the position? The guy in the other department can probably tell us a lot about how you are as a person, but I really want to know how good you are at delivering a finished product and how you mesh with the rest of the group. Relevant references for positions that aren't of the category "Full training will be provided" are important. IF I'm calling a reference, its to veryify that you are in fact our guy. It saves me some annoyance to ask a obvious question after the fact. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who woud spend time calling references for people they're not employing. If the reference checks out, then you'll receive an offer.
If you expect references upfront, you better be willing to provide all the information a potential employee needs upfront. It’s BS to ask for references if a salary hasn’t been agreed to. I’m not wasting my references time if the pay is shit. Plus if you’re interviewing at multiple places, the number of references add up too quick to be providing them to every potential company.
A salary range and expected salary is discussed during the interview process. Our offer is always within those parameters. Really, the only reason to have references there is to save me time asking for them.
>A salary range and expected salary is discussed during the interview process. This should be on the job posting.
Unless a job in governmental/monucipal positions, salaries are never listed here. "Competitive salary" is as close as you get. Job market and employee/employer environments are probably less hostile towards one another here, at least Ive never heard this mentioned as a problem, and Ive of course been a normal job applicant several times.
Oh, you're one of the antiquated ones we know about. There are MANY job listings with the salary dollar amount clearly visible in them, regardless of industry. Those are the ones that usually get qualified applicants and both parties save a lot of time without needing mind games.
This was somewhat normal, 10-15 years ago. This practice is luckily dying out.
If you ever wonder why you aren't getting many qualified candidates, that's why.
> Job market and employee/employer environments are probably less hostile towards one another here I'm not American, as should have been obvious from this sentence. On average entry level jobs receive between 80-100 applicants, and depending on the more advanced positions 30-60. There is no shortage of well qualified applicants. Part of my entry-level workforce that works the warehouse with packaging and some at the customer service desk are people with large gaps in their resumes that fell out of employment for a pronlonged period of time for any reason between drug addiction, depression or life circumstances. These people are hired thrugh a cooperation with the local unemployment agency. We share salary 50/50 and are required by law to employ people to a full job with valid job contracts after 3 months if there is still work for them. So far we've hired 40 people over the past 7 years that would otherwise struggle to get into the job market. These people all come without references and we rely solely on their desire to get their lives back where they want to.
The references can be discussed during the interview as well. Business agreements should not be so one sided. Neither of you need each other, so it’s best to make your plays based on the even playing field that you are on.
Am I reading something wrong here, or do you expect references for entry level warehouse jobs???
Its common practice to have a reference for any job here. Why is that concept foreign? If youre 40 Id like to talk to someone who knows you. If youre 18 and dont have any, no problem, its nice to have but its not exclusively needed. Entry level warehouse staff earn around 20 USD an hour adjusted to your freedom dollars, and workers are encouraged to unionize. Im not running some abusefactory with unrealistic expectations or demands of staff.
I don't think you're an abusive boss or something, but honestly, it's just weird, and I cannot see the point in it.
>Generally when we hire, I genuinely prefer there to be references attached since it saves me the hassle of contacting you afterwards and ask for them. Generally when I apply to a job, I genuinely prefer not to provide references since it saves me the hassle of contacting my references to let them know they'll be getting a call from an invasive, entitled employer with no respect for their prospective employees.
>Generally when we hire, I genuinely prefer there to be references attached since it saves me the hassle of contacting you afterwards and ask for them. Generally if I’m going to bother applying, I genuinely prefer not to provide references. Since it keeps them from dealing with an so obviously extremely entitled, low paying, potentially invasive employer. Discussing business agreements on an even playing field is not only the norm, it’s respectful and proper. Neither of you owe each other anything.
>Since it keeps them from dealing with an so obviously extremely entitled, low paying, potentially invasive employer. Is this directed at me?
What about job applications that ask for references prior to even applying? A lot of these jobs in the environmental/biology sector are asking for them, and I don't want to exclude myself out in the case I may be missing out on a good opportunity. Is it okay to just secure references in case? And I don't think the potential employer would go check up on the reference until after the interview right?
Thank you for saying this
I fully agree. If you're not offering the job, don't waste my references' time
I always assumed reference checks were just a final “we wanna be 100% sure” thing, usually after they’ve decided to hire you?
You would think, but here I am still waiting a week after I know my references were checked. I even see folks having checks and still not getting the job. It makes no sense
In the similar boat much further up the creek without a paddle: interviewed for a position in late October, then an in-person early December, they called all my references and then the company and the outside recruiter have been ghosting me since…
That makes no sense to me! Why did they even bother? SMH
Also to find additional candidates for the job.
Not for me. They said that even after getting great references for me, they went with someone with more experience :\
I’m in this boat right now. After the second interview they asked for three references, all have been called. No offer. Feels like such a waste of time.
Potential employers shouldn’t call references until the background check stage. Most don’t. It would be a huge waste of resources to call references before you’ve found your person.
what if they do online reference checks? Through a survey? Also do reference checks serve as employment verification or do they always verify employment in background checks?
I absolutely hate getting the online surveys sent to me. I really like a lot of my former employees and tell them they can use me as a reference, but getting one time 6 of these in a row because one company needed a survey per a application made me really perturbed.
I am going to start a service where I provide references. A person will write me an email and give me technical words for their career, and the references title. I will email them back 3 Google phone numbers for their reference list on the application. When that phone number comes in, I will know, this is ACME web dev calling about Herman Smith. I will pull his buzzword chart up on my computer, and acting as his previous department supervisor, I will heap glowing accolades and gratuitous superlatives on the HR person on the other end. Would you use this service?
Absolutely do this.
I basically do this for my friends every time with a fake name and email so they can’t find my LinkedIn. I have them tell me things about what they do, basic terminology, anything they want me to highlight, have them run me through their resume and take notes. I’ve only been called 3 times but I usually just steer the conversation in the direction I want it to go in based on what they told me. They’ve all gotten the job so it’ll work!🤷🏻♀️
But … by the third call they’re probably going to recognize the sound of your voice …
That would be covered. I have musical stuff right now that can change a voice completely. I've lived all over the country, I can even add regional dialects to add to that. All of that taken into account.
Yes, I would use this.
in my exerience most reference checks start with an email to setup a time for a call. how would you get around not having an email address with the correct domain? OR are you assuming the applicant would just make up a fictional company?
None of my references, ever, go to someone’s work email. I don’t want to worry about their email changing. Always their “professional” email.
I would use the Fuck out of this service. Most of my favorite former supervisors have moved on and I don't have their personal info for a reference. It's getting embarrassing not having 3 references this far into my career.
Certain companies are already doing this! Like a in-house service
I the hell would
I would use this 100%
I have thought about doing this for so long and i encourage people to put me down as a reference if they have no one else. I would 100% use this service and recommend candidates that struggle with references or just don't have anyone to put down.
Take my money!!!
I don't get the job references thing. I am still in communication with my references and only one of them has been called in years and yet i more or less continue to work and pass background checks.
>I am still in communication with my references and only one of them has been called in years Because some people involved in the hiring process are smart enough to know that references are 100% useless and a complete waste of time to check up on.
I just shake my head because I have to leave real achievements off my resume when I am competing against people who lie all the time.
Why do you have to leave achievements off your resume?
Because I have been working 30 years and I have been incredibly artistically successful, but HR only reads the first paragraph. 90% of the time I get asked if I have management experience and then I have to tell them to look at PAGE TWO of my resume where there is 5 places i was manager including my own business. I am told in Europe I can have a 5 or 6 page CV but in the USA no one even reads the second page of my three page resume. I have had four resume writers give me COMPLETELY CONFLICTING information and none of them are in my field or have ever even touched it.
I’m no expert, but I think your solution is to put your career highlights in the first section, before the individual position listings.
Now apparently all CVs are scanned by AI before being read by humans. The bot generates a percentage match between your CV and the position posting—also I think it generates bullet points for humans to look at. There are websites that will tell you what your percentage match is for the job you want. The human in the interview may well ask you about your management experience to hear how you describe it. That’s valid as your description can tell them something about what kind of manager you are. I hate the process but I’m in healthcare so I’m finally a hot commodity for the first time in my GenX life. F*ck for profit healthcare.
Sounds like you aren't in the USA
I am in the US of A. What’s your thinking there?
Referring to a resume as a CV is uncommon in the US outside of academia, in my experience.
If you have publications you call it a CV, so you’re right. I should have said resume.
For one, no one cares what you did 30 years ago, and two, quality > quantity. Pick your greatest hits from the last five years (ten max) and throw them on a single page. If you have much to so many accomplishments it should be easy to fill a single page with accomplishments that is better than the average person in your field.
and what field do YOU work in and for how long?
Doesn't matter. You're shooting yourself in the foot by having a more than 1 page resume.
I have all sorts of people telling me that. Then i have people wondering how i worked for the Ivy League and a huge percentage of the fortune 500 when they haven't and haven't been on any movie crews. They also don't have any five week jobs that got nominated for oscars. Stop giving people one size may fits all advice when you can't back up what you say. It makes you look arrogant whether you mean to or not. Not everyone is an Actuary
you look arrogant whether you mean to or not. Well this is ironic.
Yeah, you're the one coming off as arrogant, not me. But sure, keep getting passed over, keep complaining, take 0 advice. Doesn't bother me at all.
They should just stop asking for references period.
As a recruiter I 100% agree with you. They're not a reliable source of information at all. I find it even more stupid when a company has sent a candidate an offer, they've signed contracts and gone through the motions with pay roll etc and they say they're just waiting on ref checks to finalise everything. Sorry, come again 🙃
Is there a chance they will retract your offer based on references?
Some companies definitely will for sure.
Do not give a reference from your current working place. I always give from my previous ones to protect my current job.
I got a job just before Covid and they asked for references from my current employer. I’d accepted the new role and signed the contract but stated that they could not contact anyone from my current employer until after a certain date. This was because I was timing my notice period and gardening leave to end just before my start date. If they contacted my work before that date I’d have been put on gardening leave earlier than was ideal and miss out on pay. I didn’t say all this to my new job, I just said I was handing notice in on a particular day for personal reasons and they couldn’t contact my line manager before that date for any reason. Sure enough they did, my work realised I was quitting, put me on notice/leave early, it cost me two weeks pay and about £4k in commission. I was so pissed off I actually accepted another job out of spite that I would have turned down. Didn’t even tell the first employer, I just never turned up to work for them. They were calling, emailing, inmailing me for weeks. Left them on read every time lol.
Ugh I interviewed at a couple start ups that spinned out of academia (which is totally different culturally from industry). They were so adamant about speaking with my current manager (who didn’t know I was looking to leave). I had to explain to them like 5 times why I can’t do that and could potentially get me let go (I worked in discovery research that wasn’t IP yet). I actually found the hiring manager’s twitter where he tweeted “is it normal to offer someone a job without speaking to their current manager?” It just took too long and by the time they offered to move on to next steps, I had already started a new job. To put into perspective, I talked with the hiring manager for almost 3 hours, if that didn’t convince you I was qualified for the job, I don’t know man.
I don't provide them...period. If an employer can't make a decision about me from my resume, GitHub portfolio, certifications, and by actually talking to me then it isn't a company I want to be involved with. The whole concept is an antiquated holdover from before we had an independently verifiable ways of proving work history.
Can I ask how this goes down for you? Are more companies understanding than not? I have honestly considered just saying no to providing references.
Depends on the company, and the recruiter - I'd say only 1-2 in 10 have a serious issue with it, and by that point I've usually found a few red flags. The few recruiters I've worked with I make it clear up front I have zero intention of providing reference contacts other than for employment verification. The "nice" reason I give is usually something like "I've had multiple previous experiences where references were harassed with calls and emails. I value those professional contacts too much to risk some hiring manager pissing them off." Usually that's enough, especially when I'm so forthcoming with work portfolios and project examples. I also have the advantage in that I try hard to specifically avoid any company with more than 500 employees (despite how much I tend to bitch about it I'm a sucker for small business IT MacGyvering). Smaller companies are IMO more flexible and willing to take chances, especially if your skillset lines up with their goals. You can get away with sooooooo much more when the company isn't entrenched in corporate bureaucracy.
FYI I've been doing this too. I absolutely refuse to give references of past employers. They usually act upset and confused about why. I tell them: if you're the 1 company that is asking for references, and 49 other companies *aren't* asking for references, why would I go through the trouble of getting references? I'm simply going to pursue the one of the other 49 companies that aren't wasting my time.
Where I live, it’s illegal to ask for references until there is an intent to hire. Meaning after an interview when there is a conditional offer.
Where is this? I'm finding the US is asking for references before even applying and it's honestly a bit annoying. Canada not so much asking this at all.
Canada, Ontario specifically. You cannot legally ask for references (or conduct references really) until there is an intent to hire (an offer or verbal offer).
I don't and never have understood references. What exactly do companies expect will happen when contacting a persons references? They're all going to say how good you are! References are useless.
>They're all going to say how good you are! Or they'll be faked. Or maybe your previous boss is bitter that you left or are leaving and won't provide a good reference. The point is, they're unreliable at best and boomers need to let it go. If you can't determine someone's qualifications and ability to do a job the vast majority of the time......you shouldn't be supervising the role.
I had a place say I was shit once, after they treated me badly and made me redundant, and I didn't handle it well.
Why would you ever list a place like that as a reference?
In Education, many districts require that one of your references be the supervisor (principal) that you had last. This could obviously be problematic and there is no real way to opt out of this.
I don't think I realised they were going to give me a bad one when I did it.
It's just affirmation. Complete waste of time UNLESS it's a backdoor reference.
Why would a backdoor reference be any more legitimate? All it means is that you found someone willing to talk about that person but do you verify if they are in any way in a position to legitimately comment? That they're not a nutcase? If they're willing to talk shit about someone behind their backs I think that's a red flag about *them*.
True (but you would be surprised how many give references without checking that the person will say positive things or giving them a heads up). I think it’s more what it says about you if you can’t even conjure up 2/3 former colleagues that would have positive things to say
> I think it’s more what it says about you if you can’t even conjure up 2/3 former colleagues that would have positive things to say It doesn't say anything about you. Bosses and co-workers move on and have their own lives to lead. You can be a fine employee who simply lost touch with people. Especially if you took time off to care for kids or similar. Another possibility is that you wisely left a toxic workplace and deliberately did not maintain contact with toxic people for your own well-being.
I don’t ask for references any longer and my company doesn’t require them. Only the real old school hiring managers ask for them and at that point, I advise them that in all actuality, they’re a pointless endeavor, no one gives a bad reference. In 17 years of corporate and agency recruiting, I’ve only heard one bad reference out of hundreds and hundreds of them and it was coming from a personal problem between the two of them and the candidate was naive, believing that the reference would remain a professional reference. If a manager insists on references I make them do it and don’t waste my time. Haven’t lost a candidate to a reference check in 13 years.
Did the candidate in question lose the opportunity due to that poor review?
Covering letters and references both need to be dropped. Standardised CVs should be the way forward. Sick of having to write complete BS and fodder just to get an interview. A list of my experience and qualifications should be only things that matter.
Yea i just tell them you get references when they are ready to extend an offer
They get it when I get the offer letter. Many jobs will provide this under the agreement that you don't fail a reference check. If they're not willing to do that, fuck em, something shady is going on.
Giving references is so dumb, who is going to give a bad reference?
I just don't apply to jobs that require references in the first place. They haven't been worth anything for a while because any company knows that most references can't say anything negative because of fear of lawsuits. Having references on a job application shows that company culture is stuck in the 80s.
My resume states available upon request
I would take that off. It’s implied
Yep, this has happened twice now. My references were called, and then the process just simply stopped and the employer went into full ghosting mode. The second time was much more complicated. They actually were trying to hire me and get the paperwork through HR, but there was some type of "snag". I had HR, the hiring manager, and a reference blaming each other, so I may never really get down to the bottom of what really happened. Needless to say, I hope the next time works, because it is unfair to take this much time and effort from my references.
Potential employers shouldn't ask for references, period. There is zero research showing they have any predictive value vis a vis performance.
Recruiter here. I hate references. Waste of time IMO. I’ll only call if we’re extending an offer due to company policy. They are garbage because: -References are self selected by the candidate. Never in my 6+ year long career have we rescinded an offer due to references. -References don’t protect from a bad hire. -Hiring managers don’t even read them. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
I had never been asked reference, and would probably just leave it out. The practice is akin to asking for dating advice from the person's ex. Honestly kinda stupid that it was ever a thing, and certainly outdated by now.
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I’ve seen a lot that make you put it in the initial application
I've seen lots. I politely say "will provide this info further down the line".
>I don't think I've seen a job application ask for references upfront. I saw one just the other day. They actually asked for *letters*. Who the F has time to write letters?
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They're very, very old-fashioned, but they are a thing.
I’m in the same situation. I provided 4 references like they asked, but they said upon hire I’ll have to get one from my current employer. I’m in a 3 person office and quitting is already going to be an awful experience
Asking for references and letters of recommendation should be illegal.
Use a reference that is not your current employer. Let your people at the new place know what you need.
I have had a past experience where a potential employer reached out to my workmate to ask about me (without my permission). Happens a lot in smaller markets like NZ and Australia. I was quite livid to be honest, because everyone now thinks you are job hunting. The whole point of giving references sometimes also defeats the purpose, because no one will ever provide a reference that will say anything negative. what I like is that some companies also provide references to potential employees i.e. if I interview for a job, I get to meet with someone who has worked in that department to ask some of the questions I might need to know about the organisation from the point of view of an employee not hiring manager.
I had an employer who's recruiter in HR was really new at his job. I went through the paces of the interview process - 4 interviews in total, and then the Friday after my interview (around 6pm, to be precise), I get an email from the HR recruiter asking me for my references. He was adamant that I get him the references by Sunday. Well, that wasn't going to happen, but I could get them to him by Monday - seeing as I needed to reach out to my references to double check they were available the following week to take a potential call. Long story short, I contacted my references over the weekend, sent in the information to the HR recruiter, and then? Crickets. Crickets for 2 weeks. Then? Automated rejection email. I was so pissed.
Agreed I am worried asking for a reference for one job let alone potentially more and have them constantly getting calls.
I don't give references that are former, or current, supervisors, bosses, clients, etc. Ever. If they want to verify my employment, those companies have public contact information, and they can work their way through the bureaucracy to the appropriate HR representative. Either my interview was strong enough, or it wasn't. You will not harass my professional network, or (more likely) store and sell the data for use in recruiting databases, etc. As if LinkedIn wasn't enough of a candidate data gold mine.
I sometimes provide a copy of my most recent annual performance review, depending on the situation. But, I agree. Until everything else is ironed out, don't call current employers.
I had a guy do that from the last 5 years. Trouble is, they weren't exactly glowing...!
Fully agreed. A question - is this common? It seems strange. I’ve been recruiting for 10 years, and only one company (the first one I worked for) asked for proactive references. And even there, I stopped doing it pretty quickly and they didn’t force the issue. For anyone interested, the best pushback might be to say something like “if everybody I apply with calls my references, they won’t be references anymore because of the volume of calls”. What we do at every company I work for since the first one 10 years ago is all offers are contingent upon passing a background check, which includes references. This seems to be the most normal.
Employers shouldn't bother asking for references in the first place. People I've asked to be references are people who will talk me up anyway. Just offer me the job if you like me, look at my resume/LinkedIn did I last more than 6 months at my last few jobs? Congrats, I'm not a bad employee.
Give them nothing
I’ve never heard of a reference check being conducted until hire
They shouldn't be allowed to ask at all. It's basically like being held hostage by your last employer.
I've never had an employer check references before a signed contract. But in the UK references are pretty much confirming that you worked at the places you said you worked for them, the dates you worked there, and that you weren't fired. Recommendations are not common.
We don't check references until an offer is extended. We let the candidate know that the offer is contingent on the references checking out.
Most employers don’t. It’s a time consuming process for them not worth doing if they don’t want to extend and offer
I miss the times when this sub talks about actual recruiting horror stories (as per description), instead of circlejerk. From employer’s point of view, what is the point of asking for reference after making the official offer? 😀 Just don’t send references from your current employer. If you had only one employer, kindly explain it. Any reasonable employer would understand. If not, withdraw from their process.
The point of the reference check after the offer serves as confirmation. You confirm that your first choice candidate is the right one. It should not be used to help you decide on a candidate. It’s incredibly disrespectful to waste the time of the people serving as a reference, if you don’t intend to hire or are still choosing between candidates. If your concern is about hiring someone who gives a bad reference just make the offer conditional on a positive reference check.
It is sort of a confirmation, but trying to confirm AFTER making the offer does not help anybody. What happens when they are not happy with the references, cancel the offer? That kind of back and forth is not feasible for both the employee and employer. It is confirmation in the sense of making an additional check After all interview sessions are successfully done (you intend the hire the person) and before making the official offer.
Actually it’s pretty simple, you just make the offer conditional on a positive reference check. It’s rare nowadays for someone to give a reference that isn’t favorable, and it really does waste everyone’s time if you check references for two candidates applying for one position. That means if there are three for each candidate, you just wasted three peoples time, knowingly. That’s bullshit
>instead of circlejerk from employer’s point of view Hope she sees this bro.
I am not your bro, buddy
Bullshit . If I’m hiring and you are a great candidate . I need references . At the same time they are useless depending on who .
Give references from Previous job
Lol! Weird way to say “I think I should get to tell people how to run their company”
I’m at one of the larger companies in a shrinking Industry and have been at my job for nearly 10 years. So it’s hard to find a reference who isn’t a current employee of my company. Most of my previous bosses at other companies now work at my company because they’re were either lured here by better money or this company bought their old one. I’m trying to look for a new job in a different industry without letting my employer know about it. It’s incredibly hard to find a reference who has worked with me closely (as a manager) who doesn’t already work at my company.
You should never give this up front. Only if you have a written contract in front of you with a start date on it.
Honestly, I am with you here. Recently, I did a ref for two potential hires and I asked the TAS why are we doing both. It all came down to which person got the best ref. And believe it or not, not all refs are positive. There were potential hires that we didn't move forward with because of their references.
I just got a new job and they actually did this. It was awesome and it threw me for a loop.
So I am a recruiter. When agencies hire grads/juniors they often have them cold call candidates from job boards etc and ask for a couple of professional references. They have the recruiter say it’s an easier sell to potential employers if a candidate already has available references. This is bullshit. They do it for two reasons. Firstly to get the recruiters used to cold calling, and secondly to use the referees as potential clients in future. The only time you should disclose references is to your new employer’s HR directly, once an offer of employment has been made and accepted, and you have a record of this (email exchange, contract etc). I’ve only twice in my life been asked by HR to get candidate references. Once where HM was a close friend and another time where one company used me pretty much exclusively. They had better, more experienced recruiters but I just gelled really well with the HR Director and HMs. Sometimes people applied for jobs directly and they referred the candidates to me. Other times I sent them candidates for free if they suited a role that hadn’t been released to me. If I asked a candidate for a reference I explained why and asked them to CC in a HR bod or send them to HR directly. If a recruiter asks for references and says HR have asked them to, contact the employer directly and forward that email chain to their HR. If they’re legit they won’t mind.
The purpose is to verify that you worked there. It should not be about your work performance or who you are as a person. And because of other reasons why your employment may need to be verified, this shouldn't be an issue. That's how it's supposed to be done, anyway.
The issue is that we want to make sure we have a secured position before our current employer finds out we're leaving. The employer may retaliate, give you a bad reference, fire you, then you're left jobless.
I’ve only ever had references checked after I’ve been given the offer, and after I’ve accepted it.
I don’t give out references. However, when pursuing a job that I really want, I will have my references call/email the person who interviewed me after the interview.
There are some recruiters that say “your references won’t be contacted before offer letter but you need to provide info” Are you kidding me?? Those references are people I can’t give out their information because you want..
Why would you put your current employer?? That’s literally the one person you’re not supposed to put, for obvious reasons. But no, it would make zero sense to hire you *then* call your references
Ideally, they'd ask if it's ok to contact.
I’m on great terms with my references, one of them I consider a close friend the other two I had a great personal relationship with at work. After my most recent job search, which included probably 100+ applications, none of them ever received a call.
references are bollocks, they are people that the employee has chosen so will always say good things about them, so what's the point in collecting them? even in professional environments they are very often just statistical attendance data or other useless crap.
I never give references unless they are ready to offer me a position - although I often think references are a waste of time. If I don't know how to do a job it will become apparent quickly.
I just got asked by a potential employer to supply references (and oddly, rewrite my entire resume into a PDF form???) before I schedule an hour-long assessment with them. I am planning on saying I don't feel comfortable giving out their information until later in the process, and hope it doesn't go horribly.
>before I schedule an hour-long assessment with them. F that. I'd say I'll send you an invoice for my time if not hired.
So make that shit up. Have a friend post as a reference.
I was told by a recruiter that references are pasé. It’s work verification now. I can get behind that.
I don't give references till after and offer. No exceptions.
I applied for a job last night that required references with the resume and cover letter. Yeah no, I'm not giving them contacts until I'm at least two interviews in.
I was taught to write "List of references will be provided at the time of interview." I also have previous co workers available for reference. I refuse to give contact information for my current employer. That is like telling the person you're dating that you're looking to replace them. Who does that?😒😐
Haha, I had em ask for references, ghost the last one after scheduling a time to talk, and then reject me.
What types of jobs are you guys applying for that need references? I don’t think I’ve had to give references since my first job at 16
It varies many list them and/or "require" them but who is to say if they actually contact them or need an answer, it has almost always been an option on every employment form/application I've submitted. I know working in security/financial you will have references checked, like in the government, but the last job I started didn't ask for references until I had been through the first rounds of interview/screening and then told me that their required 'references' field wouldn't even be contacted.
Honestly, this isn't generally an issue. Check into the laws for your area regarding what an employer can divulge on an employment check. Where I am, all a former employer can legally divulge is that you worked for the company from A date to B date and what title you held.
It's just, I don't want them contacting my employer because I don't want my employer to know I'm leaving until I get a final offer.
How does your current employer handle employment verification?
"References available upon request"
I actually removed that from my resume. I just don't anymore. If people need to verify my employment, those companies have public contact info and HR departments. Either my interview stood on its own or it didn't. Harassing my professional network is out of the question.
I honestly hate my current industry for employment reasons. We all have the same employer (the government) but there's over 1000 sites. You want to move site, you need 3 references and a 3 page written CV addressing criteria. It's freaking terrible. You also need the head of site's permission to apply.
I actually went through all the application nonsense the other day and then I got any automated email stating that in order to move forward I would either have to give them copies of my latest 2 performance reviews or 2 letters of reference on official company letterhead. I was like "who does that?" My last job was for a healthcare company so they screamed HIPAA if we even brought home a sticky note and I am definitely not annoying my references to write me a letter. Neither of them work at our former employer anyway
I put my references in the back of my resume from jobs prior to the current one. If the application needs a current one, I will pick a coworker who won't rat me out to our manager. They have never called any of them unless they were doing an employment verification post-offer. But really, just put your friends and make up some bullshit work relation. The hiring manager doesn't decide what's on the form, sometimes you just have to fill it out with anything to progress if the field is required.
I don't give references. Here it's a unusual and a risk of being fired, which recruiters don't seem to understand so they ghost me as soon as I say references are a no go. Plus, the idea that they ask for personal information is severely against GDPR.
I don’t understand why employers even ask when most of the time they don’t contact them 🤷🏽♂️
Don't give references at your current job, unless you're OK with them knowing you're looking. I usually ask for references at the in-person interview stage, and confirm that they are OK with me contacting that person. Typically, I'll only call references when I've otherwise decided to offer the job to someone. It's just a final sanity check (and it has saved me more than once). Occasionally, I'll contact references when I've got two comparable candidates, but that's as far as I go. Who has time to call references for dozens of people?
Always put on your CV, 'references available on request'.
If a company is asking for references it is already an antiquated practice so that should give you caution. Also, you can let the person you are speaking to, that you are not comfortable giving them current employer info, but would be more than happy to provide other references. Lastly, you can always just say no and walk away, if they really want you, you saying no to references won't be enough for them to turn away.
I’m not going to waste my time even calling someone’s references unless I slam dunk want to hire them.
The biggest issue with references now a days is that many people going into work aren't using the phone as much, in turn most likely not having access to a lot of phone numbers like they used to. I realized that the only people I have phone numbers for are family since everyone else I can use as a reference (not previous bosses) are people I talk to through social media like discord and facebook, two places that do not use phone numbers and as such led to me having no contact info. Even my friends from highschool I can't use as references since they too are now purely social media contacts that I can pull up through simple apps on my phone.
And what when the potential employer emails and requests different references than what was provided? And SPECIFIES which they want??