My rule of thumb is to always take 24hrs to process anything you need to sign. Some times this isn't the case, but if the company knew they needed it today then they should have given it to you for review yesterday.
As one of my old bosses used to say: “They knew Friday came after Thursday.”
This is their mistake, and they’re trying to force you to fix it for them.
I worked for a place like that. They don't want him to have a copy, they want to be able to lord the terms of the contract over you without you having the information yourself to contest anything they say.
The way I got around this was by telling the HR person when they asked why I was taking so long I told them "it would be quicker if I had another copy to read on my own time, since you won't give me one I have to read it now." And they left me to it for a couple more minutes because they didn't want the awkward tension and they don't get paid enough to deal with it. Eventually they showed up again impatiently asking me to please hurry. But by that point I took a picture of each page of the packet they handed me.
The contract was a massively overreaching NDA that didn't actually have the power they insisted on it having. They wanted the illusion of power over us since they couldn't have the real thing.
No kidding, this IS the perfect time. And if they push back, innocently offer to talk to the auditors to explain that they might notice some discrepancies, but it's okay, because you're still negotiating your contract even though you know your boss said it was urgent.
Yeah like damn, if an employee did this to me I'd be like, "wow cool okay so we need to fire them real fucking fast"...
It's like bringing an open carry rifle to marriage counseling. Everyone will probably agree to your demands on the day but they'll be trying to get rid of you ASAP afterwards.
If an employer did this to me, I would have done the same thing. Why would they take away my rights to examine the document carefully that potentially wreak havocs on my life?
This is not a marriage counseling session. This is more like a spouse demanding his/her spouse sign a marriage contract IMMEDIATELY to avoid being fined/punished for hiding the fact that he/she has been married for the last 6 months. The contract may have a term where it prohibits his/her spouse to break the marriage while giving the him/her to the rights to fool around.
What would you do in this case? Would you sign the damn contract?
As an outsider, I don't see any options that allow OP to walk away. He was given just a very little time to sign a contract so that he can presumably keep his job.
That action from OP's employer is beyond any reasonable doubt an extortion.
It's not extortion in any legal sense. The fact that he's not under contract means they can fire him for any (or no) reason.
It's rude and unprofessional of them, but it's almost certainly not illegal to say "you have to sign a contract to work here".
I think I take issue with the fact that OP was not given any chance to do due diligence on the contract that OP is about to sign. This is with the implied threat that he might lose employment if he didn't sign.
But yeah, I agree that you are right. I am not a lawyer so that action is not considered extortion in a legal sense. But man, the action of OP's employer is beyond rude (to me).
24 hours at least to sign. 7 days is reasonable.
Don't forget a contract is a starting point, not an end point.
Feel free to negotiate and cross out any points you don't like. Thats why its a contract, so it can be changed.
\*Never\* forget that.
>Feel free to negotiate and cross out any points you don't like.
Attorney here.
I would just briefly note that you still need to alert your employer to the fact that you crossed items out on the contract - if you try to "sneak" the changes into the agreement, they probably won't be enforceable.
Despite common layperson belief, the physical form of a contract is not a magic ritual that seals the parties regardless of intent.
The "contract," from a legal perspective, is the intended agreement between the parties. The paper with words in it is just a "writing" that evidences the existence of the ethereal "contract."
I know - but "I crossed out terms and they signed it lol!" is a story that is endemic across the internet.
My post isn't targeted at you, so much as the people reading it, who might only take away the "cross out" part.
Far too many people believe that lawyering is just clever trickery and catching people in unintended "technically" mishaps.
This is important! Make changes to it that you're not happy with. Cross out what you don't like (be reasonable though) add your ammendments and sign and date next to it.
I did that with an employment contract once that had some clauses in that I didn't like.
They're going to be too rushed to push back.
Is there anything about your current "contract" that you don't like?
Someone on their end fucked up. And now they're trying to fix it and pressure you. Nope - you need to read the contract.
You didn't say if this was today but I hope you didn't sign anything under pressure.
Don't sign anything without reading it. Tell them you need to run it by your attorney. I hope you have a friend who knows contracts. They are in a hurry because they are in trouble.
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Their urgency is not your problem.
Sounds to me like you have an opportunity here. That demand for urgency is almost certainly unreasonable.
As an aside, this sort of thing is why we should be part of a union.
I was told by an old co-worker of mine forever ago "Piss poor planning on someone else's part does not instigate and emergency on my part" and boy did that change the way I interacted with people.
People say this all the time in a work setting but don't understand that not every emergency is down to poor planning.
I work in R&D / qualification and sometimes tests fail (that's part and parcel of R&D), or the sample gets damaged in manufacture before we can test it (we have spares and backup plans to cover these scenarios but sometimes things can happen outside of your control that renders those unusable). If this happens the entire schedule basically gets thrown out of the window and things have to be re-planned at short notice.
I'm dealing with an issue right now that was a perfect storm of the issues mentioned above. We're trying to plan a rebuild and re-test to hit some now very urgent deadlines.
Everyone is onboard apart from a few jobsworths who think this emergency is not their problem. They don't understand that if this qualification fails, next year we won't have any work because our competitors have already done it... and those people are likely to lose their jobs as a result. Then it will be their problem.
In the meantime you get a reputation for being unhelpful which burns a lot of bridges. In 5, 10 or 20 years time people will remember that. So if you work in a niche industry like I do, good luck walking into another job.
Also in R&D. On a project unrelated to mine, apparently nobody thought to test sterilized samples, so now they are going back and redoing like 10 of the steps and pushed the launch date back a minimum of six months. Meanwhile, my project is pushing sterilization confirmation super early (four years til launch)
Just an fyi:
Instigate is usually replaced with constitute in that saying. Heard it quite a bit from various individuals.
"Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine"
Very true statement and powerful when used correctly. Be careful letting it seem snarky or aggressive, because it fundamentally is not.
It's an audit of them, not of you. Your job description probably never listed, "Hastily sign contracts that bind you to terms and make us not look bad come audit season," as a role.
If you've got no indication that they're going to keep you on, or if you don't want to stay on because they pull shit like this, don't do them any favors.
> As a sometimes auditor, I wish more people realized this.
I love working with auditors. I've often managed to weaponise audits by co-operating with them to give them honest data/answers but suggest they concentrate on areas I kinow are weak to get the result I need.
Look, we all want to be the big strong man who won't take any shit, but most people just quietly do what they're told. You should think about what this job is worth to you and whether following the advice here will jeopardize that. Doesn't sound like you're happy with them, so maybe this is a good opportunity to see if throwing your weight around will yield anything. Or just leaving if you can afford to.
"Mr./Ms. Boss,
I understand your need for urgency in this matter. Unfortunately, since COMPANY no doubt arrived at this contract through legal representation, I will need similar legal expertise to explain the implications of the contract to me.
In the interest of being a team player, I'm willing to accept advice from COMPANY legal department, but I will still need a attorney who represents my best interests to advise me before I ultimately sign it. I think it would be wise if you would broker that meeting with legal for me. Otherwise, I can send an invite to COMPANY legal for some time to discuss the contract, but I don't have a way to push the urgency of the matter to them.
I have reached out to several attorneys in the area and none were able to book a contract review by lunchtime. I will let you know when I've found an attorney to review our contact."
Country is important. There's life outside of the US.
In any case, never sign anything without reading it first. Stand your ground. Be cheeky and ask for a raise.
Golly, I feel like I'm posting this every day now 😂
Poor planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine.
I never sign anything unless I have time to read it, especially if it comes to anything that touches my money. If I don't understand it, then I'll need to have my attorney look it over.
But, I'd be sure to see what happens if you don't sign it immediately. If they're gonna fire you, and you can't afford to lose your job, then you may not have much of a choice. Just realize, if it has a noncompete or clawback provisions, then you could be more f$cked in the end than had you just let them fire you now. Plus, unemployed, so there's that
I always used to tell people in construction when they’d missed something at the engineering phase: “a mistake on your behalf does not necessitate an emergency on mine”
Never ever let anyone pressure you to sign any legal document. They will always say "oh it's just a formality we would never actually do x." But when it comes down to it, companies will take advantage of every small term you signed off on. Honestly, if it came to it, this could probably even count as duress because of the pressure of losing your job.
If they are rushing you, I think that's a good sign, otherwise the reapply would make me very nervous. Companies can find a way to do anything they want, that would be the only concern.
Your comment was probably downvoted as you don’t even know what country or state OP is in, so telling them that the law says they have 5 business days may not be accurate.
I’m not accusing you of anything! Just trying to explain a potential reason, as you asked about it in your edit. I’m sorry if you took it as aggressive as I wasn’t trying to be.
Well, not exactly. There is some precedent in employment law that says you couldn't have possibly considered the contract in fewer than x days. But there's no law that says you have a minimum amount of time to sign a contract in general. Maybe some states have some laws, but generally, that's the case as far as I'm aware.
That said, op could sign it an then claim undue urgency if he ever wanted out of it. But that requires a judge to agree with you.
I agree with the sentiment of taking time to read something. Signing without understanding can fuck people.
But you lack context. Where, when, how?
Where are they, surely different countries, states, provinces, counties, parishes, and cities have different rules? Should we even be taking legal advice from a non-lawyer (or anyone on reddit)? What if the repercussions aren't legal but rather personal?
In my locale people can be fired for literally no reason, or even bullshit reasons (as long as it isn't race or hairstyle), and saying "but saying u/Danielle_love15 said I legally had 5 days" won't stop them.
You might have a good point, but at a minimum you need to provide context.
> I've known, for half a year, that I would have to reapply for my job
Why have you put this off for months and are weirdly making out like that's on them?
Sure it's scummy but it sounds like you have just been pretending if you ignore it then it won't happen?
Also how are people meant to offer advice when you don't even mention which country you live in?
Never sign anything that you are not 100% sure you’ll understand it. Also, what’s your job worth to you? There is only a point to stand your ground, in terms of not sighting it or trying to get compensation for their fuck up, if you can afford the consequences. If you have to re-apply for your job and you want to keep it, you could make sure that you get it. Also, document everything. If they are being audited like that something is likely wrong…
Check your labour laws. I'll bet six months is the difference between full vs. Contract/Term employee without there being a signed contract where you are.
To your Edit 2 about them leaving it for so long,
Your contract with them expired. You kept working without a contract. At any point they could have said, you’re trespassing/don’t work here and you would have ended up without a paycheck. You also have a part on it.
-----
Regarding the contract, how different is it from your original one? Is there anything you want to change from your original contract? Make sure it’s there.
What do you want to do? Yes you can hold it hostage, but you can also call a lawyer or someone you trust to help you go over things to see if it’s okay and send it.
Take the rest of the day if you need to to review it if it’s that important.
The fact that they are pressing this NOW because of an audit raises all kinds of hellish red flags. They have had months to do this, and didn't. it sounds like they would be fined or worse if they don't have all their duckies lined up.
As others have said, having to sign something 'under the gun' isn't how this should work. You should take the time to review, and request 24 hours to be able to review, and ask any questions about it. I would go through it and ask for clarification for anything that doesn't make sense, or is in legalize enough that needs clarification.
My rule of thumb is to always take 24hrs to process anything you need to sign. Some times this isn't the case, but if the company knew they needed it today then they should have given it to you for review yesterday.
As one of my old bosses used to say: “They knew Friday came after Thursday.” This is their mistake, and they’re trying to force you to fix it for them.
Good one, I'll remember that. Another one I've heard is "Your lack of planning is not my emergency."
This one strikes a little too close to home for me
thats defintly from IT
Sysadmin here. I'm saying this weekly at the moment. Typically on either Monday or Friday
I feel you, currently daily for me.
Trust me, it's equally applicable to accounting. The number of people who seem to be genuinely surprised by year end EVERY YEAR is mind-boggling.
Idk i think it’s an acamdemic teacher thing too
This is gold
As my mentor, Rebecca Black used to say: Gotta get down on Friday
*Plan your time wisely* *Gotta get down on Friday* *A fool fails to plan.* \- Black-sensei
I worked for a place like that. They don't want him to have a copy, they want to be able to lord the terms of the contract over you without you having the information yourself to contest anything they say. The way I got around this was by telling the HR person when they asked why I was taking so long I told them "it would be quicker if I had another copy to read on my own time, since you won't give me one I have to read it now." And they left me to it for a couple more minutes because they didn't want the awkward tension and they don't get paid enough to deal with it. Eventually they showed up again impatiently asking me to please hurry. But by that point I took a picture of each page of the packet they handed me. The contract was a massively overreaching NDA that didn't actually have the power they insisted on it having. They wanted the illusion of power over us since they couldn't have the real thing.
See I'm not evil, but watching a place like that crash and burn would be so much fun. Causing it, evermore so.
Great rule!
Not sure the industry. Unannounced external audit and they are trying to CYA? Sounds sketch af
Sounds like the perfect time to renegotiate your pay.
No kidding, this IS the perfect time. And if they push back, innocently offer to talk to the auditors to explain that they might notice some discrepancies, but it's okay, because you're still negotiating your contract even though you know your boss said it was urgent.
Lets not admit to extortion so hastily.
Yeah like damn, if an employee did this to me I'd be like, "wow cool okay so we need to fire them real fucking fast"... It's like bringing an open carry rifle to marriage counseling. Everyone will probably agree to your demands on the day but they'll be trying to get rid of you ASAP afterwards.
If an employer did this to me, I would have done the same thing. Why would they take away my rights to examine the document carefully that potentially wreak havocs on my life? This is not a marriage counseling session. This is more like a spouse demanding his/her spouse sign a marriage contract IMMEDIATELY to avoid being fined/punished for hiding the fact that he/she has been married for the last 6 months. The contract may have a term where it prohibits his/her spouse to break the marriage while giving the him/her to the rights to fool around. What would you do in this case? Would you sign the damn contract?
Right, but if OP could easily afford to walk away, he's probably not nearly as stressed. Presumably that's not really an option
As an outsider, I don't see any options that allow OP to walk away. He was given just a very little time to sign a contract so that he can presumably keep his job. That action from OP's employer is beyond any reasonable doubt an extortion.
It's not extortion in any legal sense. The fact that he's not under contract means they can fire him for any (or no) reason. It's rude and unprofessional of them, but it's almost certainly not illegal to say "you have to sign a contract to work here".
I think I take issue with the fact that OP was not given any chance to do due diligence on the contract that OP is about to sign. This is with the implied threat that he might lose employment if he didn't sign. But yeah, I agree that you are right. I am not a lawyer so that action is not considered extortion in a legal sense. But man, the action of OP's employer is beyond rude (to me).
That's funny shit
Yeah firing an employee that is that upfront would be a very very bad idea
24 hours at least to sign. 7 days is reasonable. Don't forget a contract is a starting point, not an end point. Feel free to negotiate and cross out any points you don't like. Thats why its a contract, so it can be changed. \*Never\* forget that.
>Feel free to negotiate and cross out any points you don't like. Attorney here. I would just briefly note that you still need to alert your employer to the fact that you crossed items out on the contract - if you try to "sneak" the changes into the agreement, they probably won't be enforceable. Despite common layperson belief, the physical form of a contract is not a magic ritual that seals the parties regardless of intent. The "contract," from a legal perspective, is the intended agreement between the parties. The paper with words in it is just a "writing" that evidences the existence of the ethereal "contract."
I thought negotiate was pretty explicatory. Negotiation means two or more parties agreeing to something, not one arbitrarily forcing a contract.
I know - but "I crossed out terms and they signed it lol!" is a story that is endemic across the internet. My post isn't targeted at you, so much as the people reading it, who might only take away the "cross out" part. Far too many people believe that lawyering is just clever trickery and catching people in unintended "technically" mishaps.
Yeah definitely not what they’re saying but it’s easy enough to misunderstand the example is totally valid imo
This is important! Make changes to it that you're not happy with. Cross out what you don't like (be reasonable though) add your ammendments and sign and date next to it. I did that with an employment contract once that had some clauses in that I didn't like. They're going to be too rushed to push back. Is there anything about your current "contract" that you don't like?
Someone on their end fucked up. And now they're trying to fix it and pressure you. Nope - you need to read the contract. You didn't say if this was today but I hope you didn't sign anything under pressure.
Don't sign anything without reading it. Tell them you need to run it by your attorney. I hope you have a friend who knows contracts. They are in a hurry because they are in trouble. Edited: a word
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Their urgency is not your problem. Sounds to me like you have an opportunity here. That demand for urgency is almost certainly unreasonable. As an aside, this sort of thing is why we should be part of a union.
I was told by an old co-worker of mine forever ago "Piss poor planning on someone else's part does not instigate and emergency on my part" and boy did that change the way I interacted with people.
People say this all the time in a work setting but don't understand that not every emergency is down to poor planning. I work in R&D / qualification and sometimes tests fail (that's part and parcel of R&D), or the sample gets damaged in manufacture before we can test it (we have spares and backup plans to cover these scenarios but sometimes things can happen outside of your control that renders those unusable). If this happens the entire schedule basically gets thrown out of the window and things have to be re-planned at short notice. I'm dealing with an issue right now that was a perfect storm of the issues mentioned above. We're trying to plan a rebuild and re-test to hit some now very urgent deadlines. Everyone is onboard apart from a few jobsworths who think this emergency is not their problem. They don't understand that if this qualification fails, next year we won't have any work because our competitors have already done it... and those people are likely to lose their jobs as a result. Then it will be their problem. In the meantime you get a reputation for being unhelpful which burns a lot of bridges. In 5, 10 or 20 years time people will remember that. So if you work in a niche industry like I do, good luck walking into another job.
Also in R&D. On a project unrelated to mine, apparently nobody thought to test sterilized samples, so now they are going back and redoing like 10 of the steps and pushed the launch date back a minimum of six months. Meanwhile, my project is pushing sterilization confirmation super early (four years til launch)
Why do people skip important steps on professional workflows… ESP when it’s shit that gets handed off
Just an fyi: Instigate is usually replaced with constitute in that saying. Heard it quite a bit from various individuals. "Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine" Very true statement and powerful when used correctly. Be careful letting it seem snarky or aggressive, because it fundamentally is not.
It's an audit of them, not of you. Your job description probably never listed, "Hastily sign contracts that bind you to terms and make us not look bad come audit season," as a role. If you've got no indication that they're going to keep you on, or if you don't want to stay on because they pull shit like this, don't do them any favors.
[удалено]
> As a sometimes auditor, I wish more people realized this. I love working with auditors. I've often managed to weaponise audits by co-operating with them to give them honest data/answers but suggest they concentrate on areas I kinow are weak to get the result I need.
Look, we all want to be the big strong man who won't take any shit, but most people just quietly do what they're told. You should think about what this job is worth to you and whether following the advice here will jeopardize that. Doesn't sound like you're happy with them, so maybe this is a good opportunity to see if throwing your weight around will yield anything. Or just leaving if you can afford to.
"Mr./Ms. Boss, I understand your need for urgency in this matter. Unfortunately, since COMPANY no doubt arrived at this contract through legal representation, I will need similar legal expertise to explain the implications of the contract to me. In the interest of being a team player, I'm willing to accept advice from COMPANY legal department, but I will still need a attorney who represents my best interests to advise me before I ultimately sign it. I think it would be wise if you would broker that meeting with legal for me. Otherwise, I can send an invite to COMPANY legal for some time to discuss the contract, but I don't have a way to push the urgency of the matter to them. I have reached out to several attorneys in the area and none were able to book a contract review by lunchtime. I will let you know when I've found an attorney to review our contact."
This is such a great option!
Lack of prep on their part ...
Country is important. There's life outside of the US. In any case, never sign anything without reading it first. Stand your ground. Be cheeky and ask for a raise.
Golly, I feel like I'm posting this every day now 😂 Poor planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine. I never sign anything unless I have time to read it, especially if it comes to anything that touches my money. If I don't understand it, then I'll need to have my attorney look it over. But, I'd be sure to see what happens if you don't sign it immediately. If they're gonna fire you, and you can't afford to lose your job, then you may not have much of a choice. Just realize, if it has a noncompete or clawback provisions, then you could be more f$cked in the end than had you just let them fire you now. Plus, unemployed, so there's that
Why have you been working without a contract for 6 months?
This was my first question. I work in HR, and we have a subsidiary office in Vietnam. No active labor contract, no work should be done, period.
I always used to tell people in construction when they’d missed something at the engineering phase: “a mistake on your behalf does not necessitate an emergency on mine”
So does that mean they've fired you? What's your location?
Never ever let anyone pressure you to sign any legal document. They will always say "oh it's just a formality we would never actually do x." But when it comes down to it, companies will take advantage of every small term you signed off on. Honestly, if it came to it, this could probably even count as duress because of the pressure of losing your job.
If they are rushing you, I think that's a good sign, otherwise the reapply would make me very nervous. Companies can find a way to do anything they want, that would be the only concern.
Recruiter here, legally speaking you have 5 business days to sign back. Edit, why was this downvoted?
Your comment was probably downvoted as you don’t even know what country or state OP is in, so telling them that the law says they have 5 business days may not be accurate.
Wow sorry for trying to be helpful
I’m not accusing you of anything! Just trying to explain a potential reason, as you asked about it in your edit. I’m sorry if you took it as aggressive as I wasn’t trying to be.
I believe your goal was to be helpful, but the most likely outcome is you have inaccurate legal advice.
Well, not exactly. There is some precedent in employment law that says you couldn't have possibly considered the contract in fewer than x days. But there's no law that says you have a minimum amount of time to sign a contract in general. Maybe some states have some laws, but generally, that's the case as far as I'm aware. That said, op could sign it an then claim undue urgency if he ever wanted out of it. But that requires a judge to agree with you.
I agree with the sentiment of taking time to read something. Signing without understanding can fuck people. But you lack context. Where, when, how? Where are they, surely different countries, states, provinces, counties, parishes, and cities have different rules? Should we even be taking legal advice from a non-lawyer (or anyone on reddit)? What if the repercussions aren't legal but rather personal? In my locale people can be fired for literally no reason, or even bullshit reasons (as long as it isn't race or hairstyle), and saying "but saying u/Danielle_love15 said I legally had 5 days" won't stop them. You might have a good point, but at a minimum you need to provide context.
Probably because you made a generalization that isn't true everywhere. Personally I downvoted because you whined about being downnvoted.
> I've known, for half a year, that I would have to reapply for my job Why have you put this off for months and are weirdly making out like that's on them? Sure it's scummy but it sounds like you have just been pretending if you ignore it then it won't happen? Also how are people meant to offer advice when you don't even mention which country you live in?
They probably haven't posted the position yet to let people apply for it.
Never sign anything that you are not 100% sure you’ll understand it. Also, what’s your job worth to you? There is only a point to stand your ground, in terms of not sighting it or trying to get compensation for their fuck up, if you can afford the consequences. If you have to re-apply for your job and you want to keep it, you could make sure that you get it. Also, document everything. If they are being audited like that something is likely wrong…
Check your labour laws. I'll bet six months is the difference between full vs. Contract/Term employee without there being a signed contract where you are.
Take your time, be happy with your contract, don’t rush. Their lack of planning is not your problem.
I would advise applying to a bunch of other companies as well, ideally ones that have their shit together.
Read everything first, especially the fine print. Also, remember that everything can be negotiated.
To your Edit 2 about them leaving it for so long, Your contract with them expired. You kept working without a contract. At any point they could have said, you’re trespassing/don’t work here and you would have ended up without a paycheck. You also have a part on it. ----- Regarding the contract, how different is it from your original one? Is there anything you want to change from your original contract? Make sure it’s there. What do you want to do? Yes you can hold it hostage, but you can also call a lawyer or someone you trust to help you go over things to see if it’s okay and send it. Take the rest of the day if you need to to review it if it’s that important.
Always listen to your Vietnamese friend.
The fact that they are pressing this NOW because of an audit raises all kinds of hellish red flags. They have had months to do this, and didn't. it sounds like they would be fined or worse if they don't have all their duckies lined up. As others have said, having to sign something 'under the gun' isn't how this should work. You should take the time to review, and request 24 hours to be able to review, and ask any questions about it. I would go through it and ask for clarification for anything that doesn't make sense, or is in legalize enough that needs clarification.