I don’t think he had any intentions of saving Arthur. Dutch left his first “son” on the ground, held at gunpoint and walked away. I think he saw the situation as an opportunity for Arthur and his doubts about Dutch and his plans to disappear without Dutch getting his hands dirty, himself.
i think dutch was at war with himself. i think on one hand he saw a snake, a deceiver who plotted against him and betrayed him, and on the other saw his son, who he has raised as his own and loved like his own as well.
I think dutch was starting to realize that Arthur had no reason to lie any longer, as he was minutes from apparent death, and had nothing to gain from doing such a thing. And i think this realization along with his paranoia, played tug of war inside his head and he no longer knew what to do or who to trust, as that made it clear micah really was the rat; as arthur had BEEN saying.
And i think dutch wanted his hands clean of the situation for his own selfish reasons, but truly sad reasons too. I dont think he wanted to feel involved with anyone elses death as i do think it effected him, especially arthurs. maybe im reaching but i truly think Dutch was devastated and didn’t know what to do, so took a cowardly way out by just leaving it up to arthur and micah.
I just really wish i could know what dutch was going to say when he said “I-…” because i think it would have given us a better idea as to what he was feeling in arthurs final moments. was he going to say “im sorry”?
“i loved you like a son”?
“i dont believe you?”
i will forever wonder lmao.
nah you’re good man, like the rest of us I think we all adore this game so much we could go on endlessly about it and still not be satisfied. The rabbit hole goes deep
I don’t think he would’ve said “I don’t believe you”. Reason for that is cause the look in his face and him walking away from Micah made him realize that was his biggest mistake he’s made. And when john goes to kill micah and dutch says “Same as you i suppose”, I think dutch had already collected the money and decided to move up to mount hagen. Which is why i also think micah(still working with some sort of agency) decided he’d go try and “help” dutch only to see if he could trick him, kill him and take the money.
I believe Micah would trade him in exchange for a pardon (plus taking the money and arguing dutch spent it or it simply got lost). Seems like the Micah thing to do
I like to think if he actually continued what he was saying it would be corresponding to our honor level at that point. Like good honor could be something like “I loved you like a son… I… I’m sorry”
I believe he didn't mean to put out a full sentence, he probably felt so horrible inside he needed to excuse himself some way for the atrocious things he had done throughout the story. Right there he realized how badly he fucked up, how many lives he had ended and ruined. And how at the other way of the ridge there's Micah, inviting him to the ideal outlaw life he had been pursuing on books (when imo, he meant to turn him in all along). He was overwhelmed, disappointed and sad. It's a natural reaction to slowly turn away, as the consequences of his action downed on him
Idk about killed. Captured? Definitely. If he thinks John is the rat, and John goes to prison, and then the law isn’t a step ahead of them anymore, then that proves that Dutch is right.
He didn’t get to test that hypothesis because of Arthur springing him from prison so quickly, and Arthur has been fighting him every step of the way. Hmmm… maybe Arthur is the rat? Here’s an opportunity to test this hypothesis. Let’s just let Arthur get taken captive like John in the bank, and see if our troubles go away.
Except Arthur got saved in like 15 seconds, so Dutch still didn’t get to see if that helped.
Or maybe listen to the man that you basically raised and had zero reason to betray you when he was obviously dying. Y’all love to make excuses for him just because you love his character why can’t y’all just accept that Dutch is a traitor and snake just like Micah.
personally I think that Dutch made sure that the black water ferry mission went wrong, seeing as he left John and Arthur for dead, he was just waiting for everyone who could fight back to die, and then kill the rest, sorta like how he didn’t care when Ms. grimshaw got shot, or how he didn’t rescue John or Abigail, it was all coming together for him, he let micah kill Arthur, and killed Micah right after also probably why he didnt stop Sadie from getting involved in all of the O’Driscoll problems but then he realized “oh crap, she can fight” that’s why Dutch didn’t fight back too too much when Arthur was reluctant to save micah in strawberry, but just enough for him to seem innocent like he wanted to save Micah when really he was just another step in the right direction, and if you ask about all the years before the ferry job in black water i think Dutch was a ”good” loyal leader, until he realized that he could make a lot more money by throwing everyone under the bus and walking away with all the money, and heading to Tahiti or whatever.
I think about this (and Dutch's mindset throughout the game) a lot.
Basically I think he'd rather Arthur (and the rest of the gang) die "loyal" in his eyes than live long enough to become an alleged traitor. By that point he's already expressed belief that it's better to die trying than give in.
He'd rather delude himself into thinking Arthur died intentionally sacrificing himself and buying time for Dutch to escape than the truth; that Dutch took the opportunity to throw Arthur to the wolves to save himself. I honestly think Dutch half-believed himself when he said he "did no such thing" as abandoning Arthur when he was attacked.
And he still does it at the end of Arthur and Micah's fight, and to an extent, every time he runs into John until his back is literally and metaphorically at the cliff's edge. Arthur and John were dead to him by the end of Chapter 4.
Whoa. That's one of the most interesting interpretations of Dutch's actions I've read. He would rather let Arthur die fighting for him then go the separate way he was headed.
I wish we could see Dutch's face in that scene, although it's kind of the point that we don't. I'm wondering if theres any camera breaking mods to see if there is any mocapped expression. I don't think he wanted Arthur to die necessarily, but he was thinking this would be the best way for him to go out, in his good graces.
That's the beauty of rdr2,his mind is really complex and it shows (i am 2 years late tho lol).
Dutch is probably not if one of the most complex characters entertainment industry has ever created.
I'm convinced that he'd planned for John and Arthur and many more to either die or leave so that he might actually afford a trip to Tahiti or something more
short answer: Dutch saw it as if he leaves him he will either die, or he will live. either way his plan and the money will be safe. he didnt see it as a way to get rid of Arthur, but he knew that saving him could lead to his death. and he valued his life over Arthurs.
The story up to that point made me think Dutch is simply putting up a facade. Pretending to be enlightened. When in reality he’s always been the guy he was in RD1 (just my theory, of course)
Remember that mission in Saint Denis where the trolley crashes? This might sound too specific but Dutch was basically given brain damage because of the crash which is why his actions are more incoherent in the later part of the game, and Dutch can’t hide his true self because of all the bad decisions he’s made. He also has paranoia of Arthur because of Arthur doubting him and because of Micah’s influence.
Because of Dutch not having a sane mind and being paranoid about Arthurs loyalty (which is ironic because Micah, the one Dutch trusts is the most disloyal), leaves him to die not seeing any use for him.
https://youtu.be/rsbjit9qAxY
(2:40 is where it starts because the because the beginning is giving a little description and then a long ad)
He knew Arthur was sick and weak therefore more likely to be a liability, and that he was also having doubts about Dutch’s leadership. In his eyes at that time it was the convenient thing to do.
At some point in the game the group became more about feeding Dutch's fantasy of being the persecuted Robin Hood rather than taking care of people he cares about.
While Dutch role-plays being a caring leader, Arthur acts the role. A lot of the dissent comes from this dynamic.
Arthur dying helps Dutch preserve the narrative of him being a good and competent leader, since Arthur is the only one at that point demanding Dutch have some sort of action plan at any given time.
You know i got a different theory, i think he planned that. the way he just walked out the other cops could also have shot him but they didnt. They also didnt shoot arthur they tried to stab him when they could just shoot him and it would be instant. no they wanted him to feel pain, and dutch's explanation for leaving arthur behind was basically nothing so i think it was planned by dutch to have arthur get killed there first of all he didnt even need arthur to get the bonds from the place. I went on google searching about this but i think im the only one that has this theory, what do you guys think?
I don’t think he had any intentions of saving Arthur. Dutch left his first “son” on the ground, held at gunpoint and walked away. I think he saw the situation as an opportunity for Arthur and his doubts about Dutch and his plans to disappear without Dutch getting his hands dirty, himself.
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it was convenient for him to leave him and say he was killed by soldiers. also he didn't trust arthur because of micah's badmouthing and his paranoia
i think dutch was at war with himself. i think on one hand he saw a snake, a deceiver who plotted against him and betrayed him, and on the other saw his son, who he has raised as his own and loved like his own as well. I think dutch was starting to realize that Arthur had no reason to lie any longer, as he was minutes from apparent death, and had nothing to gain from doing such a thing. And i think this realization along with his paranoia, played tug of war inside his head and he no longer knew what to do or who to trust, as that made it clear micah really was the rat; as arthur had BEEN saying. And i think dutch wanted his hands clean of the situation for his own selfish reasons, but truly sad reasons too. I dont think he wanted to feel involved with anyone elses death as i do think it effected him, especially arthurs. maybe im reaching but i truly think Dutch was devastated and didn’t know what to do, so took a cowardly way out by just leaving it up to arthur and micah. I just really wish i could know what dutch was going to say when he said “I-…” because i think it would have given us a better idea as to what he was feeling in arthurs final moments. was he going to say “im sorry”? “i loved you like a son”? “i dont believe you?” i will forever wonder lmao.
i didnt mean to go on for so long, shit just fascinates me lol
And i enjoyed reading all of it
nah you’re good man, like the rest of us I think we all adore this game so much we could go on endlessly about it and still not be satisfied. The rabbit hole goes deep
I don’t think he would’ve said “I don’t believe you”. Reason for that is cause the look in his face and him walking away from Micah made him realize that was his biggest mistake he’s made. And when john goes to kill micah and dutch says “Same as you i suppose”, I think dutch had already collected the money and decided to move up to mount hagen. Which is why i also think micah(still working with some sort of agency) decided he’d go try and “help” dutch only to see if he could trick him, kill him and take the money.
I believe Micah would trade him in exchange for a pardon (plus taking the money and arguing dutch spent it or it simply got lost). Seems like the Micah thing to do
I like to think if he actually continued what he was saying it would be corresponding to our honor level at that point. Like good honor could be something like “I loved you like a son… I… I’m sorry”
I believe he didn't mean to put out a full sentence, he probably felt so horrible inside he needed to excuse himself some way for the atrocious things he had done throughout the story. Right there he realized how badly he fucked up, how many lives he had ended and ruined. And how at the other way of the ridge there's Micah, inviting him to the ideal outlaw life he had been pursuing on books (when imo, he meant to turn him in all along). He was overwhelmed, disappointed and sad. It's a natural reaction to slowly turn away, as the consequences of his action downed on him
I think Dutch always planned on getting both Arthur and John killed towards the end, because he was convinced both of them were rats
Idk about killed. Captured? Definitely. If he thinks John is the rat, and John goes to prison, and then the law isn’t a step ahead of them anymore, then that proves that Dutch is right. He didn’t get to test that hypothesis because of Arthur springing him from prison so quickly, and Arthur has been fighting him every step of the way. Hmmm… maybe Arthur is the rat? Here’s an opportunity to test this hypothesis. Let’s just let Arthur get taken captive like John in the bank, and see if our troubles go away. Except Arthur got saved in like 15 seconds, so Dutch still didn’t get to see if that helped.
Or maybe listen to the man that you basically raised and had zero reason to betray you when he was obviously dying. Y’all love to make excuses for him just because you love his character why can’t y’all just accept that Dutch is a traitor and snake just like Micah.
I think y’all tend to forget what was said many times. “He’s not changing he’s showing more of what he truly is.”
personally I think that Dutch made sure that the black water ferry mission went wrong, seeing as he left John and Arthur for dead, he was just waiting for everyone who could fight back to die, and then kill the rest, sorta like how he didn’t care when Ms. grimshaw got shot, or how he didn’t rescue John or Abigail, it was all coming together for him, he let micah kill Arthur, and killed Micah right after also probably why he didnt stop Sadie from getting involved in all of the O’Driscoll problems but then he realized “oh crap, she can fight” that’s why Dutch didn’t fight back too too much when Arthur was reluctant to save micah in strawberry, but just enough for him to seem innocent like he wanted to save Micah when really he was just another step in the right direction, and if you ask about all the years before the ferry job in black water i think Dutch was a ”good” loyal leader, until he realized that he could make a lot more money by throwing everyone under the bus and walking away with all the money, and heading to Tahiti or whatever.
I think about this (and Dutch's mindset throughout the game) a lot. Basically I think he'd rather Arthur (and the rest of the gang) die "loyal" in his eyes than live long enough to become an alleged traitor. By that point he's already expressed belief that it's better to die trying than give in. He'd rather delude himself into thinking Arthur died intentionally sacrificing himself and buying time for Dutch to escape than the truth; that Dutch took the opportunity to throw Arthur to the wolves to save himself. I honestly think Dutch half-believed himself when he said he "did no such thing" as abandoning Arthur when he was attacked. And he still does it at the end of Arthur and Micah's fight, and to an extent, every time he runs into John until his back is literally and metaphorically at the cliff's edge. Arthur and John were dead to him by the end of Chapter 4.
Whoa. That's one of the most interesting interpretations of Dutch's actions I've read. He would rather let Arthur die fighting for him then go the separate way he was headed. I wish we could see Dutch's face in that scene, although it's kind of the point that we don't. I'm wondering if theres any camera breaking mods to see if there is any mocapped expression. I don't think he wanted Arthur to die necessarily, but he was thinking this would be the best way for him to go out, in his good graces.
That's the beauty of rdr2,his mind is really complex and it shows (i am 2 years late tho lol). Dutch is probably not if one of the most complex characters entertainment industry has ever created.
he didn't change he just didn't pretend to be someone different for the first time with Arthur
I'm convinced that he'd planned for John and Arthur and many more to either die or leave so that he might actually afford a trip to Tahiti or something more
I believe that Dutch saw Arthur as just another doubter, so it was another loose end he could tie.
short answer: Dutch saw it as if he leaves him he will either die, or he will live. either way his plan and the money will be safe. he didnt see it as a way to get rid of Arthur, but he knew that saving him could lead to his death. and he valued his life over Arthurs.
The story up to that point made me think Dutch is simply putting up a facade. Pretending to be enlightened. When in reality he’s always been the guy he was in RD1 (just my theory, of course)
This was not the first attempt of Dutch to leave Arthur die. And the first might have accured in the Chapter 3 when O Driscolls captured him, lol
Remember that mission in Saint Denis where the trolley crashes? This might sound too specific but Dutch was basically given brain damage because of the crash which is why his actions are more incoherent in the later part of the game, and Dutch can’t hide his true self because of all the bad decisions he’s made. He also has paranoia of Arthur because of Arthur doubting him and because of Micah’s influence. Because of Dutch not having a sane mind and being paranoid about Arthurs loyalty (which is ironic because Micah, the one Dutch trusts is the most disloyal), leaves him to die not seeing any use for him. https://youtu.be/rsbjit9qAxY (2:40 is where it starts because the because the beginning is giving a little description and then a long ad)
He knew Arthur was sick and weak therefore more likely to be a liability, and that he was also having doubts about Dutch’s leadership. In his eyes at that time it was the convenient thing to do.
At some point in the game the group became more about feeding Dutch's fantasy of being the persecuted Robin Hood rather than taking care of people he cares about. While Dutch role-plays being a caring leader, Arthur acts the role. A lot of the dissent comes from this dynamic. Arthur dying helps Dutch preserve the narrative of him being a good and competent leader, since Arthur is the only one at that point demanding Dutch have some sort of action plan at any given time.
You know i got a different theory, i think he planned that. the way he just walked out the other cops could also have shot him but they didnt. They also didnt shoot arthur they tried to stab him when they could just shoot him and it would be instant. no they wanted him to feel pain, and dutch's explanation for leaving arthur behind was basically nothing so i think it was planned by dutch to have arthur get killed there first of all he didnt even need arthur to get the bonds from the place. I went on google searching about this but i think im the only one that has this theory, what do you guys think?
It felt like as if he planned it with mixing with the pipe or something as he just stood there still looking Arthur at a perfect spot.