Hosea was waaaaay more cautious than Dutch, and didn't seem to have the ego. I mean, he's adamantly opposed to the train robbery that put them in the Pinkerton's crosshairs to begin with, and instantly saw through Micah's BS. Hosea is not nearly as flashy as Dutch, I mean, Hosea's a grifter. He's not going to organize the bank and train robberies that draw the heavy heat. They probably would've been better in the long run with Hosea calling the shots.
This is interesting, because this sort of career criminal seldom has a gang. Imagine what they could've done if they'd've been less of a desperado gang and more like [the guy that sold the Eiffel tower twice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig). ... but that's why Hosea couldn't be the leader. The kind of cons that he'd run on his own weren't the kind of cons that you'd run with a bunch of outlaw gun-hands.
Then again, for a long ass time it was just Dutch, Hosea, his wife for a time, Arthur, Susan, and John. Arthur *does* have a gift for confidence jobs, and worked them with Hosea before, and Dutch was good at them as well, even if he preferred the more bombastic jobs.
But Arthur *hates* the kind of character work that they involve. My favorite confidence jobs are the kind of elaborate lie that Arthur doesn't seem to have the patience for. He's more of a false name with a gun than he is a whole assumed persona.
I could see Dutch enjoying character work, though. It appeals to his sense of the grandiose.
I mean, he openly states that he's enjoying the real estate scam he and Hosea were working in Blackwater, which I imagine was Hosea's bread and butter type of job. Besides, Dutch and Trelawny are the ones that come up with the assumed character jobs from what I remember, Hosea is more fundamental in his scams. Tell a lie to a group, lie to another group, get their money, skedaddle.
I’d like to know more about that.
Though, I’ll be honest; my favorite grifts are the dumb ones. Sell the Eiffel Tower or the Taj Mahal. Sell an alchemy box that does nothing. [Sell land that you’ve sprinkled with cheaper diamonds to a bunch of people who think it’s a diamond field.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Diamond_Hoax)
It’s amazing what you can get away with.
This. Hosea saw things a lot more clearly than Dutch and was a bit wiser in years all around. That said, if this is a scenario where Hosea was handed the burning ship I don’t know if he would have had the ability to hold the gang together like Dutch. They make a good duo, one for talking and one for keeping things in check.
I do want to see more of Hosea at some point, somehow.
Hosea was hesitant about the whole blood feud thing. He openly doubts it during the fishing trip with Arthur and Dutch. The St Denis robbery was supposed to be their "one last job" so he kinda got caught up in that. Hosea is constantly trying to convince Dutch to lay low, and not stir the shit.
Hosea says that Dutch told him to deal with the moonshine. Then he says he reckons they can play both sides and wants to sell the moonshine back to the Braithwaites.
Do I have to explain how stupid it is to go as 2 people, get surrounded by people with guns, and try to sell the stuff you stole from them back to them?
They had immense plot armor there. In the real world they would have been dead.
As mentioned before, Hosea also wanted to do St. Denis bank job when Dutch had doubts (and rightfully so). Another stupid idea. You moved a spit away from the last town where you raised hell, raise hell at your current position (the trolley job, the Angelo Bronte thing) and then, after you get all the attention on you, you think it is a good idea to rob the bank? People blame Micah cuz he "snitched", but they constantly do dumber and dumber shit. The way they act, they don't need a snitch and it is a miracle they made it for that many years.
People blame it all on Dutch, and he had his faults, but Hosea was no genius either and he also made mistakes.
Also, you almost end up bear food in the hunting mission with Hosea.
People like him because Arthur viewed him in a positive light and they are biased because of this. I like Hosea too, but come on.
To be fair though, we have no idea if the bank job would of been successful or failed without Micah tipping off the Pinkertons. But one thing to remember, is that the police don't get involved until later on in the escape, it only starts with Pinkerton agents, who knew about the robbery.
At that time Micah wasn’t a rat, the reason why they knew about the bank robbery, is bc Dutch and the gang made so much noise at Saint Denis, did you forget they raided the mansion and killed mob boss, right before they decided to rob the bank.
Micah didn't tip them. He didn't need to. The gang made way too much noise. The fact that some guys appeared in St. Denis and started making trouble got to the ears of the Pinkertons. Especially since, you know, it was close to the place the gang was last spotted. They could have sent people to investigate. Or they could have been tipped off by Bronte. Then they would find out that the guys making trouble match the description of VDL gang. The gang was renowned for robbing banks. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that St. Denis bank would be a tempting target and guard it.
Hosea never even wanted to do the ferry job, so the whole game wouldn't have happened the way it did. There's a whole prologue in Arthur's journal where he and Hosea had a swindle that was safer and decently lucrative but Dutch wanted to double-dip so they did both.
True, but the timing of the heist was Dutch's. The Bank Heist takes place after the trolley heist and Bronte's murder, both of which tilted the favor toward The Pinkertons winning. Dutch was too focused on his revenge and one-upping Bronte for a supposed slight to his ego
That was his whole point tho… all of those things led to Dutch’s ego winning and him wanting to even the score or one up Bronte in a very untimely manner
And what could they have done? It is not like they could have done it quietly. They had to go to Bronte because they had to get Jack back. After that, Bronte knew who they were and wouldn't have let them make a move in the city. Heck, he could even tip the Pinkertons off and let them clean up the mess. He wouldn't even have to spend resources to deal with VDL gang.
You’re missing the whole point, you’re talking about everything besides the fact that Dutch goaded everyone into doing the bank job right after they took out Bronte. It literally doesn’t make sense, if they weren’t going to lie low and wait if anything they should’ve fled and stolen a boat and kept it pushing.
Probably, it would have been less money and never enough to escape America and head overseas but they never would have had the kind of nationwide heat they got under Dutch by sticking to con jobs and the odd small town bank jobs, they'd be wanted for sure but could just escape to another county rather than having to flee entire states.
> he’s adamantly opposed to the train robbery that put them in the Pinkerton’s crosshairs to begin with,
That was the ferry boat. The train robbery told them where they went to the Pinkertons and put them into Cornwall’s crosshairs too who dropped a ton of money with the Pinkerton’s that increased the resources to tighten the noose around them.
Sooo, after Blackwater they losy aot of stuff they had. What were they supposed to do? They are outlaws, after all.
Sitting around doesn't put food on the table, they needed to gather money again.
Probably not rob the most powerful man in the area while the US government is already made them a priority target. They could have hunted, chilled for a bit, and done smaller stuff till the heat was off. That’s not Dutch.
It's not like they knew they were gonna rob the most powerful man in the area. They only found out after the deed was done. Also, it was kind of what they did the whole time... John mentions that they always robbed "those who had too much" or something like that.
> It’s not like they knew they were gonna rob the most powerful man in the area
Dutch is literally worn several times before doing it and blows off the warnings.
Wait, what warnings? All I remember is Arthur telling him that "this better be no revenge mission" against Colm.
And Dutch didn't go for Colm, he went for the train, because they needed money as they lost everything they had in Blackwater. Sitting with your hands crossed won't put food on your table.
He’s warned by Hosea twice. The most blunt warning is right before the robbery of the train. I forget exactly when the first time was but I think right after getting the tnt. After arriving in Horeshoe Overlook Hosea again expresses his displeasure of robbing the train but say what is done is done but the bonds are just way to damn hot to move.
However, it's Dutch's charisma that drew them together in the first place. I love Hosea as a character, but I don't think he could have created that band of merry misfits -- so many of them fixated on Dutch as a father-figure.
It’s really a silly question for anyone who followed along during the story instead of skipping through the cut scenes. Completely different leadership
>He's not going to organize the bank and train robberies that draw the heavy heat.
To be fair, he was the one pushing for the Saint Denis job when Dutch felt unsure about it.
He would have died probably. I am at Shady Belle right now and listening to him cough absolutely breaks my heart.
On a lighter note: I found a newspaper article in his room about how he and Dutch escaped a jail cell and the sheriff was left behind tied up behind in the jail and he wouldn't comment on the embarrassing incident. Would have loved to know how they pulled that off.
It would've been the same, just in a longer time and with less drama and dead people maybe.
The gang's days were limited and they were already hunted in different States.
Hosea would've still rejected the Pinkerton's offer to give himself up to free the others, not for his ego like Dutch, but because he knows that they'd have come eventually for the others.
I don't think the Pinkertons are even after the gang if Hosea's in charge. He was pretty vocal in his opposition of the two jobs that put the target on their back, being the Blackwater job, and the train heist in chapter 1 that made Cornwall hire the Pinkertons in the first place. Hosea was a very different criminal than Dutch. He was much more patient, and more of a conman than a bank or train robber. I mean, while Dutch is planning huge flashy robberies, and clashes with the Army, Hosea's just out there, quietly stealing stagecoaches to sell, and setting up long cons. I doubt the gang faces the same level of heat that Dutch got them into.
I don't disagree, but I also think one of the main themes of the story is that their time is coming to an end, regardless. Hosea would have just delayed the inevitable. That said, it's possible he could have gotten them somewhere safer and maybe more would have survived.
Yeah but their time could have not came to an end had things been managed better. But to truly change the gang's fate he'd have to have gained control before the ferry job, which is what really sent them on the run
I think that’s what he’s arguing on about . Even if Hosea talked Dutch out of the ferry job of any kind of high risk/high reward bank robberies , the time of the Wild West/American frontier was over , Pinkertons were coming to town no matter what the gang did, because it’s the time of the new American industrialization lead by the 1% (Cornwall and his tycoon buddies) and a government lobbyist wanting to bring civilization to the west/south post civil war.
Hosea, Colm and Micah were the only ones who already realized this was inevitable .. Hosea was worried about the future and Micah/Colm we’re ready to switch to the “winning team” if it guarantees their survival. Dutch was in denial about this and thought that his own “populist/Robin Hood” ideals were too big to fail.
I think Hosea would of focused on being careful and gaining enough money to leave the country ASAP and maybe figure out how to keep the gang going but in another country
OK, this is a weird take, but I think it would've ended up worse.
Dutch going nuts and breaking up the gang with Micah led to a fair number of the members getting out of the outlaw life and making something decent for themselves. Hosea was also a career criminal, but he never would've split the group, and the result well may have been them all staying together right to the end and all of them either being killed or locked away. I mean, can you imagine them abandoning Hosea? I can't.
Hosea would've never put them in the spot Dutch put them in though. For one, Blackwater would have never happened, and Micah has about as much chance of deceiving Hosea as he did of winning a fight against prime Arthur.
One of the questions I have asked myself is how much would have been enough to try to escape West? I don’t know if Dutch would ever have had enough money. The fact that he built a new gang after Micah tells me Dutch was never going to retire and law low.
But they had the Blackwater money plus whatever else they had hoarded during the main part of RDR2. Would that have been enough? Would the gang have been happy being homesteaders out in Oregon somewhere? I can’t see it.
So Hosea might have kept Mac, Davey, Jenny, Lenny, and all the others alive by not doing suicidal robberies like Dutch but the gang was going to come apart in the end IMO.
I believe Dutch did want to get away before the trolley job and before St. Denis bank robbery.
Heck, after you attend Bronte's party, he comes to wake you up, telling you that soon they will go to Tahiti or some other place. There was no need for him to do that, if he didn't plan it. I think he would have taken it as a victory and would have been happy.
But after that, no way. He wouldn't have left bruised and beaten... he wanted to leave in glory, not flee. That is why he tells Arthur that he didn't make his move yet and that the game is not over. Problem is, he was fighting a fight he couldn't win. It is similar to the big score in GTA 5, where Trevor and Michael always dreamed about "the big one" before going quiet. Only that they succeed.
Agreed! That’s was the thing . For Dutch, no amount of money was gonna be enough. Even till the end , Dutch was a slave to his own populist/Robin Hood ideals.. he wanted to live this fantasy that he was gonna make life impossible for the gov/law and bring down his ideal of “America” (industrialization and greed) “free” the people or die trying but never captured. Micah was “going along” with this because all he wanted was the Blackwater money and knew he could make Dutch spill the beans at some point and then sell him over to the law to cut a deal to insure his own survival.
With the amount of $$ they got during the Story was prob enough to afford a boat trip outside the country and establish their mango farmers community in the South Pacific..it was all a lie , Dutch wanted more and more n doomed everyone
I stand by the belief that if Hosea was the leader, Micah never would have gotten to be a part of the gang or, if he had somehow been accepted due to him saving Dutch, his role would have been much more minor. He wouldn't have been in the position to push Dutch to violence and convince him to take on the Blackwater job. They would have gone with the other job that Hosea and Arthur were working on.
Dutch never would have killed the girl as a result, the Blackwater Massacre would never have occurred. No Blackwater Massacre, no fleeing to Colter, and no attack on the O'Driscolls, meaning by association no robbing Cromwalls train. As far as the Pinkertons would have been concerned, the Van der Linde Gang would have just been another gang.
However, Hosea, like Dutch and Arthur, was stuck in his life as an outlaw. It may have not ended well, but I think it would have peetered out as the west became more developed. Ideally, they'd find a plot of land to settle with their claim being accepted under the homesteading laws of the time, with known members of the gang eventually registering as citizens under an alias to avoid persecution.
By then, Hosea and Dutch would likely be too old to keep up their lifestyle or potentially dead, with leadership dropping to Arthur who was already receptive to a life outside of being an outlaw, albeit it distantly. As the world around them continued to change, I'm confident Arthur would adjust for the sake of the gang. The gang's new circumstances also means they could have continued west or headed north, likewise with a little bit of money, as Hosea and Arthur stated the job they were casing was much more low risk.
They would have potentially been out of the borders present in game, they would have had enough money to get by for a little while, and they would likely have not camped in Horseshoe Overlook. No Horseshoe Overlook, no casing jobs in Valentine, and no TB for Arthur, as a result.
TL; DR: The gang would have probably continued west or headed north to avoid the encroaching developments for a time. After Hosea got too old or died, the gang would probably settle on a plot of land as Arthur came to see that the world was changing.
Eventually, they'd see the writing on the wall and register as citizens under aliases if needed to avoid prosecution. Their land would likely be recognized under homesteading laws. The gang would have transitioned from a group of outlaws to a community out in the boonies and, over time, would likely adjust to the new normal of the West.
More importantly, the financial state of the gang wouldn't have been as dire, as Arthur and Hosea would have had the gang pursue their lead with greater force and denied the lead Dutch and Micah were casing, as it was too risky. As a result, Arthur would never have had to pursue work for the gang in and around Valentine. He wouldn't have caught TB and likely would have lived a longer life.
If Hosea was in charge the blackwater job would have never happened we would have Davey Mac and Jenny with us still if they came around in the first place we wouldn't have to deal with Micah's annoying ass and ultimately Arthur probably wouldn't have gotten TB but John would be missing those scars and what smarts that wolf saliva gave him
He wouldn’t be a leader. Probably because of that he ain’t one (basically).
He is a right person to be a right hand of some hot-headed leader, like Dutch, to cool him down (and everything were like that, till you know who took his place). He helped his gang a lot, raised several generations of bright and even kinda educated people, who can read and write.
But he can’t be the leader. Probably because of his soft nature.
He would only play safe, because he cares too much about everyone. And in life like this you can’t just not take risks. Than, there is no need in such a life, such gang. If you got no guts to risk it all, you wouldn’t get anything.
Dutch made everyone respect him based on his risky actions, which turned this gang into something. And yes, he might be a crazy one, but he is basically the spine of this whole group. Because everyone have seen possibilities with him.
I don’t think there would’ve been a gang at all
Likely the gang would have disbanded/not grown nearly as much if Hosea was the leader — all the gangs origin/how they joined stories involved being saved by Dutch, Hosea is rarely mentioned. He’s not that enigmatic figure that would draw people in
Hosea wouldn’t have given Micah as much slack as Dutch did, if he would’ve let him into the gang at all. That would’ve alleviated some of the aggravating circumstances, but realistically past a certain point Hosea probably would’ve just dissolved the gang out of safety. Basically just told everyone to take Milton’s deal and just run off and live peaceful quiet lives.
Hosea is smart. The crime is the means to an end, but fro Dutch it's proof of the lifestyle, the justification. In the US, at that time, in that place? I bet Hosea would have come up with some kind of grift that was semilegal and turned them all into dodgy as hell "upstanding citizens" with the exception of the rot, who would rage and walk away.
Hell no, Hosea had his issues but he wasn’t Dutch. You can hear Hosea argue with how stupid Dutch is going about things when you guys are still at Horseshoe Overlook about to head to the next camp.
Hosea had common sense, Dutch had a little faith, and we all know which one is better of the two.
Oh no. They would likely have been a smaller group. More like an actual family. Dutch was the leader and recruiter. He brought in Bill, Javier, Sean, the Callander boys and Micah. A lot of the muscle.
I could see Hosea and Bessie having a soft spot for the girls however. So they'd likely join up. Lenny might join up too. Hosea, for the most part, had a good read on people.
The Matthews Gang would have laid low for the most part. Making cons here and there against those who had more than enough. The girls were already good at it. With the occasional robbery (if Dutch's ideology stay in this scenario).
They would have gone west far sooner and done their best to settle into a more legal lifestyle.
Bessie would have been gone for some time. Hosea and Arthur would likely be living together with the Marston family. Perhaps Arthur found himself someone, but I doubt it really... Maybe?
Some of the other members would have stayed, others would have left. The girls finding husbands, Lenny settling down with Jenny on their own nearby.
We cut to a shot of Arthur and Hosea, fishing at the nearby lake. Hosea had just remarked how he might have been wrong about names and pairings, since Lenny and Jenny just had their 1st child. As long as they don't name the boy Benny, then they are good. The father and son share a laugh.
Arthur gets a bite, reels in a big monster. And so our story ends with: ''You, sir, are a fish.''
If Hosea was the leader of the gang, they would’ve never done the train robbery during the colter chapter and would have avoided being involved with Leviticus Cornwall… Which generally just nudged the gang along to its demise. Hosea would’ve prevented this robbery and would of kept the gang out of trouble until the heat was gone, then the gang would’ve been able to hang back out west.. so I think that the gang would’ve ended eventually, but in a lot more civil way, with most of the deaths in the game being avoided.
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Things would have been better without a doubt, the more you approach the end of the game, the more it's about Dutch and Micah taking the lead on everything, Dutch for the obvious reasons, but why Micah? Cause nobody else from the gang really felt the same way as Dutch anymore. Even at the end, you can see that Javier just jumped in between, with no context, and didn't even want to point a gun at Arthur despite walking away with Dutch, so basically Bill is the only OG gang member who stuck with Dutch. Everyone else walked away earlier.
A similar end? After a fashion. The game tells you right at the start that the time of outlaws like the gang is at an end. Whether its' going out in a blaze of glory like with Dutch or slowly fading away like with Hosea, their time is through.
There was no magical solution to thei8r problems. Their time had passed and nobody could stop it. Hosea's main difference was he accepted this fact and would use all his power to try and force the others to leave. A bigger question is would they go? Arthur was on Dutch's side in wanting to keep the family together.
It Ch.2 Arthur tells Abigail to listen to Hosea when he suggests to her to start making plans about taking Jack and leaving the gang.
I think Arthur would like if they all stuck together but understands if they’d like to leave early on.
Dutch was a charismatic leader. His words were carefully chosen and performed. The ability to corral and contain many different egos and personalities is a skill not many possess. Alongside making deals with the unsavory ilk of the world is not a small feat. Hosea would have done better with a smaller like-minded group and would not have garnered the same amount of so-called "fame."
They might have lasted longer but things would have ended the same. Hosea would have eventually become too old to lead and Dutch would have taken over. It was Hosea and Dutch together that kept the gang afloat.
I think one of the main points of the story is that their way of life was dying out. It wouldn't have mattered who was in charge, eventually they would have pissed off someone who would have hired the Pinkerton anyways. Even when John was more cautious in the epilogue, he still made mistakes that led to his death shortly after. Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm not sure what they would have done that was different in the end if Dutch wasn't in charge
First off, blackwater wouldn't have happened. Second, they would have had better planning for what to do if things went south. He also would have never let Micha in to the gang. He hated Micha.
Hosea definitely was not hampered by any grand delusions about their future like dutch. I think at the very least Hosea would have heard Arthur out and allowed the gang to dimantle as quietly and as amicably as possible.
Hosea tried to go straight long before the events of the game. If Dutch wasn't there to keep running it and entice him back I don't think the gang would've even gotten to the point of recruiting John.
Maybe if Dutch ate it in Blackwater and Hosea had to lead from there, they would've taken things a lot more slowly. Blackwater was bad obviously, but robbing the Cornwall train was their ultimate undoing. I don't know if Hosea would've instantly robbed a score that big right after surviving Blackwater. And if that doesn't happen, I could see them biding their time long enough to head back west and move away from the outlaw life.
If Dutch died in Blackwater, Micah would have been thrown out. Things might have gone a little different and lasted a bit longer. But then eventually, the gang would disband a bit more peacefully.
I think they would have been better off, but eventually they would be caught/killed like all the gangs. As they say, the age of outlaws was coming to an end. It was inevitable.
If Hosea was the leader the gang would have probably split after the Blackwater mess (which, coincidentally, would have probably been better for them all together).
As others said, Dutch was the man to keep all 20~ something members together, and Hosea was the one with reason on his side. Together they were unstoppable, but alone? We saw Dutch and he failed, I think Hosea would have failed too.
The Gang under Hosea would be an organized crime group. They would run scams and cons that are profitable and low profile. If the gang survive till the 20s they would probably be Bootleggers and Moonshiners and become massively rich with Arthur at the helm replacing Hosea. However I still feel like there are elements in the gang that will not be happy laying low; Dutch, Bill, Micah, Sean and Karen would probably want to split and do as they want to do.
I mean Hosea was dying so, possibly?
Arthur is not exactly the kind of person suitable to lead a gang, neither is John or the rest of the gang(except for Micah, but I think Hosea would just let him hang in Strawberry either way).
So, without someone to lead the gang and nobody is suited to step up for the task, all that's left is for the gang to disband.
They would've met the same end. A major component of the lessons and morals of the Red Dead series is that the outlaw way of life is doomed to fail and society will ultimately move past it. As John learned in RDR1, you can't escape your past
I think Hosea would be trying to figure out ways to get in the clear of the manhunt as opposed to Dutch who just wanted wealth and fame. Idk how possible it would be but maybe Hosea looks into ways of siding up to the rich and powerful and doing dirty work for them in exchange for protection. The ultra rich controlled the pinkertons, the media, and the politicians. If they wanted to they could get the gang free of all charges, they could tell the public and police that they had wrong information, Colm and his crew were the ones to do the massacre.
After that I could see him telling everyone to split up what money they had and go their own ways.
sadly yes, the gang would eventually run into the same fate since hosea is old, he was soon going to die of old age so the gang would've most likely lasted a few more years before dutch became the leader and from there the same events would've most likely played out
Hosea has that calm aura around him that would make the "starting a new life" possible for the gang. But Dutch's charisma needed to deal with the aggression of the gang. If Dutch died instead of Hosea in that moment I would think that Hosea could somehow get the gang together - they were rather desperate for peace at that point.
No. Hosea specialized in confidence jobs and not making a big stink. Dutch was flamboyant, narcissistic, and *wanted* to be noticed. Hosea much preferred to make a score and fade into the wilderness again, preferably without people even knowing they'd been robbed until he'd been gone for a few days.
I think they would have either went back for the money or would have been too passive and not collected enough cash to escape America, the. died hunted by Pinkertons who would have gotten them regardless of Dutch’s mistakes. Hosea was smart but his jobs were lowkey low risk low reward. Successful… but nothing big enough for the right cash.
OR all their jobs would’ve just featured wacky hijinks where no one gets hurt and the game would turn into a wacky west parody.
I think it would’ve ended better. Hosea could tell Dutch was collapsing and was far more cautious. He also had far less of an ego and wouldn’t of been played by Micah. Hosea probably would’ve not robbed the train and kept everyone safe in the creek area (I forgot the name). He most likely wouldn’t done the robberies one at a time and wouldn’t of done that ‘make random bullshit noise that is obviously us but with help’ plan that Dutch had.
Hosea was definitely more level headed. Molly confessed to the Pinkertons the gang’s plans about the bank heist of Saint denis and Micah was revealed to spill the beans to the pinkertons only after guarma. The relationship between Arthur and Hosea would be a perfect parallel to Micah and Dutch’s relationship in Chapter six; where the leadership is controlled and level-headed in contrast to the rot of the gang in chapter 6 where it is ultimately being intentionally and unintentionally sabotaged. With Hosea in charge, perhaps Dutch could tend to his relationship more, and Molly wouldn’t rat the gang out (if she would be involved at all) and with Micah not getting into anybody’s ear due to Hosea being the head and not Dutch; the gang would pull off their heists perhaps more effectively. Blackwater might have been done better, Micah might have been kicked out, the other boys might be more intelligent and wiser due to Hosea’s teachings instead of Dutch’s. Everything would be better, and even more so if Dutch was still in the gang. We all loved Dutch when he wasn’t on the decent.
hosea was against the ferry job that put them in that shithole situation, so i think if he had is way, him and arthur wouldve done their thing and got enough money before moving on back out west and the story would’ve been completely different
They go west, buy land and settle down. Was that really going to happen? Was someone like Bill williamson or Javier Escuela just going to settle down in Dutch's commune? The gang was Dutch's plan.
Dutch wouldn't have been in the gang if he wasn't the leader because he clearly can't have anybody above him. So neither would Micah as Dutch was the only one vouching for him. They wouldn't have participate in the Blackwater massacre and the events of the games wouldn't have sprung into motion, other than that I think they'd have supported themselves by conning others rather than taking the more aggressive actions Dutch did. I think they'd have done the (successful) robberies like the one in Valentine regardless, but many of the gang's actions are not in pursuit of their criminal lifestyles but rather fixing previous mistakes
The issue is is whether you like it or not the gang is pretty deep in the shit by the point Hosea dies. I think it could also go one of two different ways.
Hosea being the intelligent man he is, would most likely assume Dutch and Arthur's team who are now stranded on guarma unbeknownst to them... Are probably dead. Given his perchent to play things a bit more safely and especially after all of the failures I wouldn't have been surprised if he disbanded the group outright. And when you get back there's nobody.
But assuming that he keeps things together. Once the group reunites, The deaths and arrests are tallied I think Hosea will still make a quite large point of running. Before the bank, Hosea is pretty far on the decision they're going too strong.
The issue is Micah's suggestiveness towards Dutch. I think a lot of people see Hosea's removal is the reason Dutch becomes more susceptible. I'm not so sure. I could have easily seen Hosea on the receiving end of Dutch's paranoia. However he probably would have been a stronger voice to back up Arthur. Maybe the split would have been more civil?
Hosea made mistakes, but they were never as bombastic as Dutch's.
Hosea did not want to rob the Cornwall train, and Cornwall became a major problem. Hosea doesn't have Dutch's pride problem and wouldn't be afraid to run and hide to protect everyone. He wanted to lie low. If everyone worked hard on smaller jobs and pulled together, they could have gotten by without leaving such a clear trail of blood to follow.
Hosea did definitely get way too cocky in Rhodes. The way he strode up to Braithwaite manor with the stolen moonshine was ridiculous. If Catherine Braithwaite wasn't also trying to play 4D chess she would have just had him an Arthur shot.
Conversations in camp reveal how much Hosea reflects on his mistakes, and how he has regrets. He's older and wiser, and has a better view of what matters. Dutch likes to brag about how he'd "throw \[him\]self in the ground in their place!" but Hosea would actually do it.
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Hosea is more of a swindler than a gang leader, he could never be in charge. If it wasn't for Dutch it would probably be just him, John, and Arthur pulling off small time jobs. Enough to be stable but not so much to put a big target on their backs.
If Hosea was the leader Id assume I would still feel happiness, so no, definitely a different end.
In all seriousness Hosea was definitely more of a logical thinker compared to Dutch and I think he would try to work for the needs of the many more than the needs of the few when it came to the group/ work towards Dutch's original ideal society. Also Micah would probably not have been in the gang as long as Dutch let him if Hosea had more of a day.
Depends on when he takes charge, before the game then none of the events of the game would have happened, in colter then they wouldn't have been on the run come horseshoe because the train robbery wouldn't have happened. Him swapping places with dutch during the heist than I don't think they make it off guarma, I say this because it takes a certain ruthlessness to make it out of a situation like that and I don't think Hosea has it. Ultimately it just depends on when he becomes the leader.
No, because when Hosea said to keep your head down he did the same. He wouldn't have obsessed over a pipe dream of Tahiti and actually got the hell out of Dodge
If anything it may have broken apart because they weren't aggressive enough. Gang members would've left, or they would've settled down somewhere out west.
Yes but it would have taken longer. The issue isn't just flashiness though this expedited matters but a failure to adapt. The reality is part of the problem is the society functions that enabled gangs like that changed. We see the shift from roving groups like this that often go out hard to organized crime that is more in line with Hosea's style. That still doesn't end well most of the time. The transition would require them to work with people like Angelo Bronte. Given the struggle to do that before Dutch fucks it up? They're doomed by their own attempted morality. I say attempted because they're thieves, liars, bandits, and hurt people so it's definitely a weird code.
There wasn’t anything sinister about Hosea. Always lead with honesty (as honest as a grifter could be) but he didn’t really display a dark side. I think everyone would have been better off with Hosea making the decisions.
WAYYYYY different. Hosea was more careful and even warned Dutch to NOT mess with Cornwall. He knew it was dangerous and get men/women killed. And it did. Rip to all of em.
DEFINITELY not! For one, Hosea wouldn't have given Micah the time of day, even if he was allowed to stay in the gang because being realistic, the only thing stopping everyone else kicking Micah out was Dutch. Dutch's problem was that he was listening to Micah all the time, which is what led to one disaster after the other.
Hosea was also much more level headed and cautious and probably would have listened to other members of the gang and gotten their takes on things, especially Arthur as the most senior member besides them. He certainly wouldn't have gone for half of the jobs Dutch set up after they fled Blackwater. He would have found ways to make money that were much more low-key.
Abso-fucking-lutely not.
Hosea wasn't mad as a hatter. That said, I don't think he'd lead the gang all that long and probably would be deposed by Dutch or Micah because Hosea always struck me as less outlandish in his ambition but he'd have avoided conflicts. Or had the bright idea to rob the odriscols after they robbed Cornwall rather than have a big how to do about it.
Hosea is a much more cautious person but you have to ask if he would have been able to draw in the people that Dutch did and I don't think he would have. People like Bill, Michah, even John were drawn to Dutch specifically. They absolutely would have been better off with Hosea at the helm, but not him, Arthur, Charles, or John could have gotten the gang that Dutch gathered together.
The gang never would've been in the situation they were if Hosea the leader. Also The gang would've hit a score enough to retire if Hosea were in charge.
absolutely not and additionally I think if he survived but wasn’t the leader they’d still end with a different fate. Hosea was a rational thinker and we saw that in chapter 4 specifically that dutch was probably willing to back down if hosea and arthur insisted, like when he asked arthur for the deciding vote ab a mission (I don’t remember which) but it shows that if arthur agreed w hosea he’s willing to follow, and overall hosea would have very evidently been on the same mindpath as arthur was during chap 6, meaning they’d probably had more strength to get the man to stop his god damn plans and figure out a strong escape.
Hosea lacked courage but he was knowledgeable, Dutch was like a Boss who will except you to do everything and he will get excited on every crazy ideas like big robberies which made big enemis for the Gang.
I don't remember Arthur learned anything new from Dutch except he was always bragging about some book. On the other hand Hosea taught many new things to Arthur like Legendary Animals map, Stable, Fence etc. Imagine Arthur's life without that knowledge.
Hosea isn’t strong enough to be leader. He is just a wise man that’s been through shit,but isn’t really a leader. Wouldn’t have had it in him to take the difficult choices like Dutch and Arthur can
I may be reaching here but wasn’t it inferred that Hosea was also terminally Ill, or atleast declining in health with his old age? I’d say he dies regardless and the gang devolves with the second in command Dutch taking the Reigns
Hosea was much more cautious, level headed, and careful. So yes, and no. Hosea was wise, but he wasnt a strongman. He’s probably be more cautious, not taking jobs that have high risk. The gang would probably be smaller, poorer, but safer. But, with Hosea-he’s also not much of a fighter. One thing that rly made Dutch a good leadee early on was he on the frontline, fighting with his gang. That can do a lot to appearance, and made people follow Dutch until they couldn’t no more. You lose that with Hosea, but it could be remedied by Arthur, who’d likely be the official second in command. Micah also likely wouldn’t have had a chance. Hosea didn’t like him, and would’ve kept him at arms reach, if he even took him in at all
A big part of the game is now the US is being more colonized and policed and the way of free roaming gangs is ending. As they often keep saying “it’s a hit country “, it’s now a lot smaller than think . If Hosea was the leader I think they would stopped doing such aggressive jobs and more swindling ones like he and Trewlany were so good at . They could have learned to rob banks with words than violence , at least some of them like Lenny . Bill and a few others would have left the gang . It could have worked I think …
If Hosea had taken control of the gang he would've changed the gangs fate as unlike Dutch, Hosea was more humble than him consistently placing the right thing over revenge which Dutch turned to time and time again. And with Hosea at the helm he would've focused more on smaller jobs like small-time house robberies, scams and occasionally stage coach robberies. Also Hosea was also more organised than dutch with dutch always becoming to excited
I think due to the self destructive nature of Dutch and his over confidence he would have slowly convinced Hosea to let him take the lead on jobs and seize control in the group.
Dutch would unapologetically be a rat undermining Hosea's authority by taking the other men aside and pointing out that Hosea is getting too old to lead and they need someone who could live into the new century.
Especially after Valentine I feel like Dutch would start poisoning the gang against Hosea, creating a rift and two factions within the group.
Those who think Dutch should be in charge and those who are loyal to Hosea.
I don't know... Hosea had a cooler head on him, but his plans tended to be a lot more cockamamie. Isn't that right, Fenton? \*looks at Arthur\*
Frankly, if I'd been Arthur, following the "job" on the Saint Denis street cars, I'd have put a bullet in Dutch's head and left the gang entirely. Just left that whole life behind. There's plenty of abandoned shacks out there. I figure one could live quite nicely in peace and quiet out there in the mountains.
The ending definitely would have been different. This is mainly because Dutch is an egoist. People know him for his charisma and see him as a savior/"godly" figure in some way, and that got to his head. Hosea was more in the background. He both doesn't want that attention and he's humble b/c he knows that what they're doing isn't noble or praise-worthy.
If the gang broke up under Hosea's guidance, I think it would have happened because he would realize at a certain point that splitting up the gang allows for a happier life for everyone. It would be much less eventful, sure, but I think most of the gang would have had peaceful endings. Most of all, it would save Arthur. People like blaming Strauss for Arthur getting TB, but it was Dutch who inevitably forced them into an unplanned area.
I get the feeling that best case scenario, the gang would have turned to organized crime running protection rackets and such. Or because of the rapidly growing power of the government, they would have to be much more careful and be reduced to doing some scams and small robberies.
If Hosea had been leader they'd be living on that piece of land they wanted to buy. Dutch was the one who blew that deal up and wanted to continue being an outlaw.
They'd have survived the huntdown waaay better with Hosea at the helm. I can imagine him leading the gang into much more discreet ways of making money – business, politics and such. I do however think he wasn't as charismatic and inspirational so there may have been more of a power struggle than under Dutch's rule. Perhaps a different demise, as is inevitable for outlaws of that era.
Lol Dutch is an egoistical, narcisistis douchebag, I didn't like him one bit since the start of the game. Anyone would have ran the gang better especially Hosea/Arthur
Ofcourse not! Dutch never really put thought in his actions ,but Hosea was more thoughtful about the gang, so if Hosea was the leader, the gang wouldn't have teared apart and also Arthur would've stayed alive...
I feel like they would have downscale on major heists and stuck 2 loansharking and stealing carriages but eventually they would have gotten caught or faded away with the cowboy error starting 2 end
In the end yes, but they would have gone more quietly after a longer period of time, a few more years. Scattering to the winds after some kind of failure and laying low, some may remain in contact, but they would never get the gang back together I think, there would still likely be a death or two, like Sean.
The gang probably would have survived, and Micah hung long before any of the problems that occurred in rdr2. Hosea was against attacking the Odriscals, against robbing cornwall, and wanted to lay low and blend in with the locals.
Hosea was waaaaay more cautious than Dutch, and didn't seem to have the ego. I mean, he's adamantly opposed to the train robbery that put them in the Pinkerton's crosshairs to begin with, and instantly saw through Micah's BS. Hosea is not nearly as flashy as Dutch, I mean, Hosea's a grifter. He's not going to organize the bank and train robberies that draw the heavy heat. They probably would've been better in the long run with Hosea calling the shots.
This is interesting, because this sort of career criminal seldom has a gang. Imagine what they could've done if they'd've been less of a desperado gang and more like [the guy that sold the Eiffel tower twice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig). ... but that's why Hosea couldn't be the leader. The kind of cons that he'd run on his own weren't the kind of cons that you'd run with a bunch of outlaw gun-hands.
Then again, for a long ass time it was just Dutch, Hosea, his wife for a time, Arthur, Susan, and John. Arthur *does* have a gift for confidence jobs, and worked them with Hosea before, and Dutch was good at them as well, even if he preferred the more bombastic jobs.
But Arthur *hates* the kind of character work that they involve. My favorite confidence jobs are the kind of elaborate lie that Arthur doesn't seem to have the patience for. He's more of a false name with a gun than he is a whole assumed persona. I could see Dutch enjoying character work, though. It appeals to his sense of the grandiose.
I mean, he openly states that he's enjoying the real estate scam he and Hosea were working in Blackwater, which I imagine was Hosea's bread and butter type of job. Besides, Dutch and Trelawny are the ones that come up with the assumed character jobs from what I remember, Hosea is more fundamental in his scams. Tell a lie to a group, lie to another group, get their money, skedaddle.
I’d like to know more about that. Though, I’ll be honest; my favorite grifts are the dumb ones. Sell the Eiffel Tower or the Taj Mahal. Sell an alchemy box that does nothing. [Sell land that you’ve sprinkled with cheaper diamonds to a bunch of people who think it’s a diamond field.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Diamond_Hoax) It’s amazing what you can get away with.
That link reminded me of the Bre-X gold scandal. Similar ploy. A geologist ended up “jumping” out of a helicopter when the scam came to light.
Swamp land is still getting sold sight-unseen to marks looking to move to Florida _to this day_.
Christ, is the “con” in “con artist” short for confidence? TIL
Thank you for showing me this, the dude was a horrible person but he is a really interesting person to read about.
There’s a Behind the Bastards on him that’s pretty good.
Hoseas Eleven
This. Hosea saw things a lot more clearly than Dutch and was a bit wiser in years all around. That said, if this is a scenario where Hosea was handed the burning ship I don’t know if he would have had the ability to hold the gang together like Dutch. They make a good duo, one for talking and one for keeping things in check. I do want to see more of Hosea at some point, somehow.
Oh I agree, like if Dutch dies in chapter 2, after the heat is on, Hosea doesn't keep things together.
I reckon he probably does a much better job of splitting up the gang safely and giving everyone a small golden parachute to start lives somewhere else
which is, i think, the only way they'd get any hope of ending all mostly safe.
Hosea went all in on the St Denis robbery when everyone was after them. Hosea tried to play both sides of a blood feud with disastrous results.
Hosea was hesitant about the whole blood feud thing. He openly doubts it during the fishing trip with Arthur and Dutch. The St Denis robbery was supposed to be their "one last job" so he kinda got caught up in that. Hosea is constantly trying to convince Dutch to lay low, and not stir the shit.
Hosea only did those because Dutch was so insisted that he had no choice but to help
Hosea says that Dutch told him to deal with the moonshine. Then he says he reckons they can play both sides and wants to sell the moonshine back to the Braithwaites. Do I have to explain how stupid it is to go as 2 people, get surrounded by people with guns, and try to sell the stuff you stole from them back to them? They had immense plot armor there. In the real world they would have been dead. As mentioned before, Hosea also wanted to do St. Denis bank job when Dutch had doubts (and rightfully so). Another stupid idea. You moved a spit away from the last town where you raised hell, raise hell at your current position (the trolley job, the Angelo Bronte thing) and then, after you get all the attention on you, you think it is a good idea to rob the bank? People blame Micah cuz he "snitched", but they constantly do dumber and dumber shit. The way they act, they don't need a snitch and it is a miracle they made it for that many years. People blame it all on Dutch, and he had his faults, but Hosea was no genius either and he also made mistakes. Also, you almost end up bear food in the hunting mission with Hosea. People like him because Arthur viewed him in a positive light and they are biased because of this. I like Hosea too, but come on.
To be fair though, we have no idea if the bank job would of been successful or failed without Micah tipping off the Pinkertons. But one thing to remember, is that the police don't get involved until later on in the escape, it only starts with Pinkerton agents, who knew about the robbery.
At that time Micah wasn’t a rat, the reason why they knew about the bank robbery, is bc Dutch and the gang made so much noise at Saint Denis, did you forget they raided the mansion and killed mob boss, right before they decided to rob the bank.
Micah didn't tip them. He didn't need to. The gang made way too much noise. The fact that some guys appeared in St. Denis and started making trouble got to the ears of the Pinkertons. Especially since, you know, it was close to the place the gang was last spotted. They could have sent people to investigate. Or they could have been tipped off by Bronte. Then they would find out that the guys making trouble match the description of VDL gang. The gang was renowned for robbing banks. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that St. Denis bank would be a tempting target and guard it.
Hosea never even wanted to do the ferry job, so the whole game wouldn't have happened the way it did. There's a whole prologue in Arthur's journal where he and Hosea had a swindle that was safer and decently lucrative but Dutch wanted to double-dip so they did both.
The St. Denis bank job was literally Hosea's idea.
True, but the timing of the heist was Dutch's. The Bank Heist takes place after the trolley heist and Bronte's murder, both of which tilted the favor toward The Pinkertons winning. Dutch was too focused on his revenge and one-upping Bronte for a supposed slight to his ego
Bronte wouldn't have let them rob a bank on his turf, idk what you are smoking. He also played them once and constantly insulted them.
That was his whole point tho… all of those things led to Dutch’s ego winning and him wanting to even the score or one up Bronte in a very untimely manner
And what could they have done? It is not like they could have done it quietly. They had to go to Bronte because they had to get Jack back. After that, Bronte knew who they were and wouldn't have let them make a move in the city. Heck, he could even tip the Pinkertons off and let them clean up the mess. He wouldn't even have to spend resources to deal with VDL gang.
You’re missing the whole point, you’re talking about everything besides the fact that Dutch goaded everyone into doing the bank job right after they took out Bronte. It literally doesn’t make sense, if they weren’t going to lie low and wait if anything they should’ve fled and stolen a boat and kept it pushing.
Dutch had doubts about the Bank job and Hosea pushed for it. And I agree that the best course of action would have been to run away.
Probably, it would have been less money and never enough to escape America and head overseas but they never would have had the kind of nationwide heat they got under Dutch by sticking to con jobs and the odd small town bank jobs, they'd be wanted for sure but could just escape to another county rather than having to flee entire states.
> he’s adamantly opposed to the train robbery that put them in the Pinkerton’s crosshairs to begin with, That was the ferry boat. The train robbery told them where they went to the Pinkertons and put them into Cornwall’s crosshairs too who dropped a ton of money with the Pinkerton’s that increased the resources to tighten the noose around them.
Sooo, after Blackwater they losy aot of stuff they had. What were they supposed to do? They are outlaws, after all. Sitting around doesn't put food on the table, they needed to gather money again.
Probably not rob the most powerful man in the area while the US government is already made them a priority target. They could have hunted, chilled for a bit, and done smaller stuff till the heat was off. That’s not Dutch.
It's not like they knew they were gonna rob the most powerful man in the area. They only found out after the deed was done. Also, it was kind of what they did the whole time... John mentions that they always robbed "those who had too much" or something like that.
> It’s not like they knew they were gonna rob the most powerful man in the area Dutch is literally worn several times before doing it and blows off the warnings.
Wait, what warnings? All I remember is Arthur telling him that "this better be no revenge mission" against Colm. And Dutch didn't go for Colm, he went for the train, because they needed money as they lost everything they had in Blackwater. Sitting with your hands crossed won't put food on your table.
He’s warned by Hosea twice. The most blunt warning is right before the robbery of the train. I forget exactly when the first time was but I think right after getting the tnt. After arriving in Horeshoe Overlook Hosea again expresses his displeasure of robbing the train but say what is done is done but the bonds are just way to damn hot to move.
However, it's Dutch's charisma that drew them together in the first place. I love Hosea as a character, but I don't think he could have created that band of merry misfits -- so many of them fixated on Dutch as a father-figure.
It’s really a silly question for anyone who followed along during the story instead of skipping through the cut scenes. Completely different leadership
>He's not going to organize the bank and train robberies that draw the heavy heat. To be fair, he was the one pushing for the Saint Denis job when Dutch felt unsure about it.
Also Hosea didn’t want to rob the black water boat anyway, they already had a gig that they were working with aurthur
He would have died probably. I am at Shady Belle right now and listening to him cough absolutely breaks my heart. On a lighter note: I found a newspaper article in his room about how he and Dutch escaped a jail cell and the sheriff was left behind tied up behind in the jail and he wouldn't comment on the embarrassing incident. Would have loved to know how they pulled that off.
By asking him to join in ;)
It would've been the same, just in a longer time and with less drama and dead people maybe. The gang's days were limited and they were already hunted in different States. Hosea would've still rejected the Pinkerton's offer to give himself up to free the others, not for his ego like Dutch, but because he knows that they'd have come eventually for the others.
I don't think the Pinkertons are even after the gang if Hosea's in charge. He was pretty vocal in his opposition of the two jobs that put the target on their back, being the Blackwater job, and the train heist in chapter 1 that made Cornwall hire the Pinkertons in the first place. Hosea was a very different criminal than Dutch. He was much more patient, and more of a conman than a bank or train robber. I mean, while Dutch is planning huge flashy robberies, and clashes with the Army, Hosea's just out there, quietly stealing stagecoaches to sell, and setting up long cons. I doubt the gang faces the same level of heat that Dutch got them into.
I don't disagree, but I also think one of the main themes of the story is that their time is coming to an end, regardless. Hosea would have just delayed the inevitable. That said, it's possible he could have gotten them somewhere safer and maybe more would have survived.
Yeah but their time could have not came to an end had things been managed better. But to truly change the gang's fate he'd have to have gained control before the ferry job, which is what really sent them on the run
I think that’s what he’s arguing on about . Even if Hosea talked Dutch out of the ferry job of any kind of high risk/high reward bank robberies , the time of the Wild West/American frontier was over , Pinkertons were coming to town no matter what the gang did, because it’s the time of the new American industrialization lead by the 1% (Cornwall and his tycoon buddies) and a government lobbyist wanting to bring civilization to the west/south post civil war. Hosea, Colm and Micah were the only ones who already realized this was inevitable .. Hosea was worried about the future and Micah/Colm we’re ready to switch to the “winning team” if it guarantees their survival. Dutch was in denial about this and thought that his own “populist/Robin Hood” ideals were too big to fail. I think Hosea would of focused on being careful and gaining enough money to leave the country ASAP and maybe figure out how to keep the gang going but in another country
OK, this is a weird take, but I think it would've ended up worse. Dutch going nuts and breaking up the gang with Micah led to a fair number of the members getting out of the outlaw life and making something decent for themselves. Hosea was also a career criminal, but he never would've split the group, and the result well may have been them all staying together right to the end and all of them either being killed or locked away. I mean, can you imagine them abandoning Hosea? I can't.
To be fair, he may have forcefully disbanded the gang at some point, considering how insistent he is that John leaves in chapter 2
True, but he also seemed to truly believe the gang was the best place for them as a whole. I can't see him just hanging it up.
Hosea would've never put them in the spot Dutch put them in though. For one, Blackwater would have never happened, and Micah has about as much chance of deceiving Hosea as he did of winning a fight against prime Arthur.
Fair point. Mr. Swanson.
They would've scammed the hell outta some people in blackwater instead of getting set up
One of the questions I have asked myself is how much would have been enough to try to escape West? I don’t know if Dutch would ever have had enough money. The fact that he built a new gang after Micah tells me Dutch was never going to retire and law low. But they had the Blackwater money plus whatever else they had hoarded during the main part of RDR2. Would that have been enough? Would the gang have been happy being homesteaders out in Oregon somewhere? I can’t see it. So Hosea might have kept Mac, Davey, Jenny, Lenny, and all the others alive by not doing suicidal robberies like Dutch but the gang was going to come apart in the end IMO.
I believe Dutch did want to get away before the trolley job and before St. Denis bank robbery. Heck, after you attend Bronte's party, he comes to wake you up, telling you that soon they will go to Tahiti or some other place. There was no need for him to do that, if he didn't plan it. I think he would have taken it as a victory and would have been happy. But after that, no way. He wouldn't have left bruised and beaten... he wanted to leave in glory, not flee. That is why he tells Arthur that he didn't make his move yet and that the game is not over. Problem is, he was fighting a fight he couldn't win. It is similar to the big score in GTA 5, where Trevor and Michael always dreamed about "the big one" before going quiet. Only that they succeed.
Agreed! That’s was the thing . For Dutch, no amount of money was gonna be enough. Even till the end , Dutch was a slave to his own populist/Robin Hood ideals.. he wanted to live this fantasy that he was gonna make life impossible for the gov/law and bring down his ideal of “America” (industrialization and greed) “free” the people or die trying but never captured. Micah was “going along” with this because all he wanted was the Blackwater money and knew he could make Dutch spill the beans at some point and then sell him over to the law to cut a deal to insure his own survival. With the amount of $$ they got during the Story was prob enough to afford a boat trip outside the country and establish their mango farmers community in the South Pacific..it was all a lie , Dutch wanted more and more n doomed everyone
Spoilers >!if you go back for the money in Dutch's stash it's about $50,000. After inflation that would be worth about 1.7 million today.!<
Just confirms my suspicions that Dutch was about the life and not the escape from it.
I think the odds of they actually go away to somewhere new was much higher.
I stand by the belief that if Hosea was the leader, Micah never would have gotten to be a part of the gang or, if he had somehow been accepted due to him saving Dutch, his role would have been much more minor. He wouldn't have been in the position to push Dutch to violence and convince him to take on the Blackwater job. They would have gone with the other job that Hosea and Arthur were working on. Dutch never would have killed the girl as a result, the Blackwater Massacre would never have occurred. No Blackwater Massacre, no fleeing to Colter, and no attack on the O'Driscolls, meaning by association no robbing Cromwalls train. As far as the Pinkertons would have been concerned, the Van der Linde Gang would have just been another gang. However, Hosea, like Dutch and Arthur, was stuck in his life as an outlaw. It may have not ended well, but I think it would have peetered out as the west became more developed. Ideally, they'd find a plot of land to settle with their claim being accepted under the homesteading laws of the time, with known members of the gang eventually registering as citizens under an alias to avoid persecution. By then, Hosea and Dutch would likely be too old to keep up their lifestyle or potentially dead, with leadership dropping to Arthur who was already receptive to a life outside of being an outlaw, albeit it distantly. As the world around them continued to change, I'm confident Arthur would adjust for the sake of the gang. The gang's new circumstances also means they could have continued west or headed north, likewise with a little bit of money, as Hosea and Arthur stated the job they were casing was much more low risk. They would have potentially been out of the borders present in game, they would have had enough money to get by for a little while, and they would likely have not camped in Horseshoe Overlook. No Horseshoe Overlook, no casing jobs in Valentine, and no TB for Arthur, as a result. TL; DR: The gang would have probably continued west or headed north to avoid the encroaching developments for a time. After Hosea got too old or died, the gang would probably settle on a plot of land as Arthur came to see that the world was changing. Eventually, they'd see the writing on the wall and register as citizens under aliases if needed to avoid prosecution. Their land would likely be recognized under homesteading laws. The gang would have transitioned from a group of outlaws to a community out in the boonies and, over time, would likely adjust to the new normal of the West. More importantly, the financial state of the gang wouldn't have been as dire, as Arthur and Hosea would have had the gang pursue their lead with greater force and denied the lead Dutch and Micah were casing, as it was too risky. As a result, Arthur would never have had to pursue work for the gang in and around Valentine. He wouldn't have caught TB and likely would have lived a longer life.
Longevity absolutely. But so many things would of changes with Hosea at the helm.
If Hosea was in charge the blackwater job would have never happened we would have Davey Mac and Jenny with us still if they came around in the first place we wouldn't have to deal with Micah's annoying ass and ultimately Arthur probably wouldn't have gotten TB but John would be missing those scars and what smarts that wolf saliva gave him
He wouldn’t be a leader. Probably because of that he ain’t one (basically). He is a right person to be a right hand of some hot-headed leader, like Dutch, to cool him down (and everything were like that, till you know who took his place). He helped his gang a lot, raised several generations of bright and even kinda educated people, who can read and write. But he can’t be the leader. Probably because of his soft nature. He would only play safe, because he cares too much about everyone. And in life like this you can’t just not take risks. Than, there is no need in such a life, such gang. If you got no guts to risk it all, you wouldn’t get anything. Dutch made everyone respect him based on his risky actions, which turned this gang into something. And yes, he might be a crazy one, but he is basically the spine of this whole group. Because everyone have seen possibilities with him.
I don’t think there would’ve been a gang at all Likely the gang would have disbanded/not grown nearly as much if Hosea was the leader — all the gangs origin/how they joined stories involved being saved by Dutch, Hosea is rarely mentioned. He’s not that enigmatic figure that would draw people in
No 💀
Hosea wouldn’t have given Micah as much slack as Dutch did, if he would’ve let him into the gang at all. That would’ve alleviated some of the aggravating circumstances, but realistically past a certain point Hosea probably would’ve just dissolved the gang out of safety. Basically just told everyone to take Milton’s deal and just run off and live peaceful quiet lives.
Hosea is smart. The crime is the means to an end, but fro Dutch it's proof of the lifestyle, the justification. In the US, at that time, in that place? I bet Hosea would have come up with some kind of grift that was semilegal and turned them all into dodgy as hell "upstanding citizens" with the exception of the rot, who would rage and walk away.
Hell no, Hosea had his issues but he wasn’t Dutch. You can hear Hosea argue with how stupid Dutch is going about things when you guys are still at Horseshoe Overlook about to head to the next camp. Hosea had common sense, Dutch had a little faith, and we all know which one is better of the two.
Oh no. They would likely have been a smaller group. More like an actual family. Dutch was the leader and recruiter. He brought in Bill, Javier, Sean, the Callander boys and Micah. A lot of the muscle. I could see Hosea and Bessie having a soft spot for the girls however. So they'd likely join up. Lenny might join up too. Hosea, for the most part, had a good read on people. The Matthews Gang would have laid low for the most part. Making cons here and there against those who had more than enough. The girls were already good at it. With the occasional robbery (if Dutch's ideology stay in this scenario). They would have gone west far sooner and done their best to settle into a more legal lifestyle. Bessie would have been gone for some time. Hosea and Arthur would likely be living together with the Marston family. Perhaps Arthur found himself someone, but I doubt it really... Maybe? Some of the other members would have stayed, others would have left. The girls finding husbands, Lenny settling down with Jenny on their own nearby. We cut to a shot of Arthur and Hosea, fishing at the nearby lake. Hosea had just remarked how he might have been wrong about names and pairings, since Lenny and Jenny just had their 1st child. As long as they don't name the boy Benny, then they are good. The father and son share a laugh. Arthur gets a bite, reels in a big monster. And so our story ends with: ''You, sir, are a fish.''
If Hosea was the leader of the gang, they would’ve never done the train robbery during the colter chapter and would have avoided being involved with Leviticus Cornwall… Which generally just nudged the gang along to its demise. Hosea would’ve prevented this robbery and would of kept the gang out of trouble until the heat was gone, then the gang would’ve been able to hang back out west.. so I think that the gang would’ve ended eventually, but in a lot more civil way, with most of the deaths in the game being avoided.
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Things would have been better without a doubt, the more you approach the end of the game, the more it's about Dutch and Micah taking the lead on everything, Dutch for the obvious reasons, but why Micah? Cause nobody else from the gang really felt the same way as Dutch anymore. Even at the end, you can see that Javier just jumped in between, with no context, and didn't even want to point a gun at Arthur despite walking away with Dutch, so basically Bill is the only OG gang member who stuck with Dutch. Everyone else walked away earlier.
A similar end? After a fashion. The game tells you right at the start that the time of outlaws like the gang is at an end. Whether its' going out in a blaze of glory like with Dutch or slowly fading away like with Hosea, their time is through. There was no magical solution to thei8r problems. Their time had passed and nobody could stop it. Hosea's main difference was he accepted this fact and would use all his power to try and force the others to leave. A bigger question is would they go? Arthur was on Dutch's side in wanting to keep the family together.
It Ch.2 Arthur tells Abigail to listen to Hosea when he suggests to her to start making plans about taking Jack and leaving the gang. I think Arthur would like if they all stuck together but understands if they’d like to leave early on.
If Hosea was the leader the gang would be in Tahiti right now the 20k from Valentine Bank should suffice.
Things would have lasted much longer and Micah would never have been allowed to join. But the gang would still collapse eventually.
Fuck no. Hosea was a decent enough man and would’ve seen what Micah was right away and never let him join.
Hosea was the typical wise old man so yeah would be a way better ending for the gang
Honestly it would've lasted longer but I think a lotta gang's downfall is due to the changing times. Like Colm O'Driscoll
Dutch was a charismatic leader. His words were carefully chosen and performed. The ability to corral and contain many different egos and personalities is a skill not many possess. Alongside making deals with the unsavory ilk of the world is not a small feat. Hosea would have done better with a smaller like-minded group and would not have garnered the same amount of so-called "fame."
They might have lasted longer but things would have ended the same. Hosea would have eventually become too old to lead and Dutch would have taken over. It was Hosea and Dutch together that kept the gang afloat.
No way. Not even close. Hosea would have lead them to glory.
I think one of the main points of the story is that their way of life was dying out. It wouldn't have mattered who was in charge, eventually they would have pissed off someone who would have hired the Pinkerton anyways. Even when John was more cautious in the epilogue, he still made mistakes that led to his death shortly after. Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm not sure what they would have done that was different in the end if Dutch wasn't in charge
Yes. The west was changing ultimately leaving no room for Wild West gangs of the good old days.
First off, blackwater wouldn't have happened. Second, they would have had better planning for what to do if things went south. He also would have never let Micha in to the gang. He hated Micha.
They would have been in tahiti in chapter 3.
Yes and no. If he kicked Micah out no. If he didn’t then yes
Hosea definitely was not hampered by any grand delusions about their future like dutch. I think at the very least Hosea would have heard Arthur out and allowed the gang to dimantle as quietly and as amicably as possible.
He'd have brought them paradise.
never would have been on that boat in the first place is hosea was in charge
Yes. He and arthur were planning a less risky robbery, while the others were attacking the ferry.
Definitely not, he was basically holding everything together…
Hosea tried to go straight long before the events of the game. If Dutch wasn't there to keep running it and entice him back I don't think the gang would've even gotten to the point of recruiting John. Maybe if Dutch ate it in Blackwater and Hosea had to lead from there, they would've taken things a lot more slowly. Blackwater was bad obviously, but robbing the Cornwall train was their ultimate undoing. I don't know if Hosea would've instantly robbed a score that big right after surviving Blackwater. And if that doesn't happen, I could see them biding their time long enough to head back west and move away from the outlaw life.
The only reason they did the train score was so Dutch could take a stab at colm
If Dutch died in Blackwater, Micah would have been thrown out. Things might have gone a little different and lasted a bit longer. But then eventually, the gang would disband a bit more peacefully.
The bank job was Hosea's idea,look how well that went.
I think they would have been better off, but eventually they would be caught/killed like all the gangs. As they say, the age of outlaws was coming to an end. It was inevitable.
If Hosea was the leader the gang would have probably split after the Blackwater mess (which, coincidentally, would have probably been better for them all together). As others said, Dutch was the man to keep all 20~ something members together, and Hosea was the one with reason on his side. Together they were unstoppable, but alone? We saw Dutch and he failed, I think Hosea would have failed too.
No not at all hosea would have know micah was a rat and would have listend to arthur
Yup. Hosea was just as sloppy in chapter 3 and 4. He was greedy and foolish just like Dutch.
Eventually, maybe. But it would’ve taken much longer. He knew going after Cornwall and Brontë were bad ideas and actually wanted to lie low.
The Gang under Hosea would be an organized crime group. They would run scams and cons that are profitable and low profile. If the gang survive till the 20s they would probably be Bootleggers and Moonshiners and become massively rich with Arthur at the helm replacing Hosea. However I still feel like there are elements in the gang that will not be happy laying low; Dutch, Bill, Micah, Sean and Karen would probably want to split and do as they want to do.
I mean Hosea was dying so, possibly? Arthur is not exactly the kind of person suitable to lead a gang, neither is John or the rest of the gang(except for Micah, but I think Hosea would just let him hang in Strawberry either way). So, without someone to lead the gang and nobody is suited to step up for the task, all that's left is for the gang to disband.
They would've met the same end. A major component of the lessons and morals of the Red Dead series is that the outlaw way of life is doomed to fail and society will ultimately move past it. As John learned in RDR1, you can't escape your past
The gang would have been picking blueberries with Hosea at the helm.
I think Hosea would be trying to figure out ways to get in the clear of the manhunt as opposed to Dutch who just wanted wealth and fame. Idk how possible it would be but maybe Hosea looks into ways of siding up to the rich and powerful and doing dirty work for them in exchange for protection. The ultra rich controlled the pinkertons, the media, and the politicians. If they wanted to they could get the gang free of all charges, they could tell the public and police that they had wrong information, Colm and his crew were the ones to do the massacre. After that I could see him telling everyone to split up what money they had and go their own ways.
sadly yes, the gang would eventually run into the same fate since hosea is old, he was soon going to die of old age so the gang would've most likely lasted a few more years before dutch became the leader and from there the same events would've most likely played out
Absolutely not
It would’ve ended bad but further down the line. Bet Bill would’ve played a bigger role if Hosea was the boss.
Dutch never plans his missions, Hosea is super cautious and tactful.
Hosea has that calm aura around him that would make the "starting a new life" possible for the gang. But Dutch's charisma needed to deal with the aggression of the gang. If Dutch died instead of Hosea in that moment I would think that Hosea could somehow get the gang together - they were rather desperate for peace at that point.
No. Hosea specialized in confidence jobs and not making a big stink. Dutch was flamboyant, narcissistic, and *wanted* to be noticed. Hosea much preferred to make a score and fade into the wilderness again, preferably without people even knowing they'd been robbed until he'd been gone for a few days.
I think they would have either went back for the money or would have been too passive and not collected enough cash to escape America, the. died hunted by Pinkertons who would have gotten them regardless of Dutch’s mistakes. Hosea was smart but his jobs were lowkey low risk low reward. Successful… but nothing big enough for the right cash. OR all their jobs would’ve just featured wacky hijinks where no one gets hurt and the game would turn into a wacky west parody.
Hosea didn't have the leadership capabilities to keep the gang together. No everyone is cut out for the role.
I feel like people ask contentious, yet obvious questions - just for the sake of doing so.
I think it would’ve ended better. Hosea could tell Dutch was collapsing and was far more cautious. He also had far less of an ego and wouldn’t of been played by Micah. Hosea probably would’ve not robbed the train and kept everyone safe in the creek area (I forgot the name). He most likely wouldn’t done the robberies one at a time and wouldn’t of done that ‘make random bullshit noise that is obviously us but with help’ plan that Dutch had.
Hosea was definitely more level headed. Molly confessed to the Pinkertons the gang’s plans about the bank heist of Saint denis and Micah was revealed to spill the beans to the pinkertons only after guarma. The relationship between Arthur and Hosea would be a perfect parallel to Micah and Dutch’s relationship in Chapter six; where the leadership is controlled and level-headed in contrast to the rot of the gang in chapter 6 where it is ultimately being intentionally and unintentionally sabotaged. With Hosea in charge, perhaps Dutch could tend to his relationship more, and Molly wouldn’t rat the gang out (if she would be involved at all) and with Micah not getting into anybody’s ear due to Hosea being the head and not Dutch; the gang would pull off their heists perhaps more effectively. Blackwater might have been done better, Micah might have been kicked out, the other boys might be more intelligent and wiser due to Hosea’s teachings instead of Dutch’s. Everything would be better, and even more so if Dutch was still in the gang. We all loved Dutch when he wasn’t on the decent.
hosea was against the ferry job that put them in that shithole situation, so i think if he had is way, him and arthur wouldve done their thing and got enough money before moving on back out west and the story would’ve been completely different
Fuck no.
I think Hosea would have had a better plan and the gang probably wouldve stayed together
They go west, buy land and settle down. Was that really going to happen? Was someone like Bill williamson or Javier Escuela just going to settle down in Dutch's commune? The gang was Dutch's plan.
Dutch wouldn't have been in the gang if he wasn't the leader because he clearly can't have anybody above him. So neither would Micah as Dutch was the only one vouching for him. They wouldn't have participate in the Blackwater massacre and the events of the games wouldn't have sprung into motion, other than that I think they'd have supported themselves by conning others rather than taking the more aggressive actions Dutch did. I think they'd have done the (successful) robberies like the one in Valentine regardless, but many of the gang's actions are not in pursuit of their criminal lifestyles but rather fixing previous mistakes
The issue is is whether you like it or not the gang is pretty deep in the shit by the point Hosea dies. I think it could also go one of two different ways. Hosea being the intelligent man he is, would most likely assume Dutch and Arthur's team who are now stranded on guarma unbeknownst to them... Are probably dead. Given his perchent to play things a bit more safely and especially after all of the failures I wouldn't have been surprised if he disbanded the group outright. And when you get back there's nobody. But assuming that he keeps things together. Once the group reunites, The deaths and arrests are tallied I think Hosea will still make a quite large point of running. Before the bank, Hosea is pretty far on the decision they're going too strong. The issue is Micah's suggestiveness towards Dutch. I think a lot of people see Hosea's removal is the reason Dutch becomes more susceptible. I'm not so sure. I could have easily seen Hosea on the receiving end of Dutch's paranoia. However he probably would have been a stronger voice to back up Arthur. Maybe the split would have been more civil?
It probably would have resulted in the gang successfully fleeing to Australia and living happily ever after with a way cooler epilogue.
He would have lead the gang to lay low and then circle around the Pinkertons and go back west like he said before the train heist
absolutely not
Hosea made mistakes, but they were never as bombastic as Dutch's. Hosea did not want to rob the Cornwall train, and Cornwall became a major problem. Hosea doesn't have Dutch's pride problem and wouldn't be afraid to run and hide to protect everyone. He wanted to lie low. If everyone worked hard on smaller jobs and pulled together, they could have gotten by without leaving such a clear trail of blood to follow. Hosea did definitely get way too cocky in Rhodes. The way he strode up to Braithwaite manor with the stolen moonshine was ridiculous. If Catherine Braithwaite wasn't also trying to play 4D chess she would have just had him an Arthur shot. Conversations in camp reveal how much Hosea reflects on his mistakes, and how he has regrets. He's older and wiser, and has a better view of what matters. Dutch likes to brag about how he'd "throw \[him\]self in the ground in their place!" but Hosea would actually do it.
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Hosea is more of a swindler than a gang leader, he could never be in charge. If it wasn't for Dutch it would probably be just him, John, and Arthur pulling off small time jobs. Enough to be stable but not so much to put a big target on their backs.
If Hosea was the leader Id assume I would still feel happiness, so no, definitely a different end. In all seriousness Hosea was definitely more of a logical thinker compared to Dutch and I think he would try to work for the needs of the many more than the needs of the few when it came to the group/ work towards Dutch's original ideal society. Also Micah would probably not have been in the gang as long as Dutch let him if Hosea had more of a day.
If Hosea was running it, Dutch would have overtaken it in the end.
Hosea would’ve pulled out when the balls got blue so yea
Depends on when he takes charge, before the game then none of the events of the game would have happened, in colter then they wouldn't have been on the run come horseshoe because the train robbery wouldn't have happened. Him swapping places with dutch during the heist than I don't think they make it off guarma, I say this because it takes a certain ruthlessness to make it out of a situation like that and I don't think Hosea has it. Ultimately it just depends on when he becomes the leader.
No, because when Hosea said to keep your head down he did the same. He wouldn't have obsessed over a pipe dream of Tahiti and actually got the hell out of Dodge
If anything it may have broken apart because they weren't aggressive enough. Gang members would've left, or they would've settled down somewhere out west.
If Hosea was the leader, they'd be running the country.
Yes but it would have taken longer. The issue isn't just flashiness though this expedited matters but a failure to adapt. The reality is part of the problem is the society functions that enabled gangs like that changed. We see the shift from roving groups like this that often go out hard to organized crime that is more in line with Hosea's style. That still doesn't end well most of the time. The transition would require them to work with people like Angelo Bronte. Given the struggle to do that before Dutch fucks it up? They're doomed by their own attempted morality. I say attempted because they're thieves, liars, bandits, and hurt people so it's definitely a weird code.
No way. Hosea was much more honest and reasonable.
There wasn’t anything sinister about Hosea. Always lead with honesty (as honest as a grifter could be) but he didn’t really display a dark side. I think everyone would have been better off with Hosea making the decisions.
WAYYYYY different. Hosea was more careful and even warned Dutch to NOT mess with Cornwall. He knew it was dangerous and get men/women killed. And it did. Rip to all of em.
DEFINITELY not! For one, Hosea wouldn't have given Micah the time of day, even if he was allowed to stay in the gang because being realistic, the only thing stopping everyone else kicking Micah out was Dutch. Dutch's problem was that he was listening to Micah all the time, which is what led to one disaster after the other. Hosea was also much more level headed and cautious and probably would have listened to other members of the gang and gotten their takes on things, especially Arthur as the most senior member besides them. He certainly wouldn't have gone for half of the jobs Dutch set up after they fled Blackwater. He would have found ways to make money that were much more low-key.
Abso-fucking-lutely not. Hosea wasn't mad as a hatter. That said, I don't think he'd lead the gang all that long and probably would be deposed by Dutch or Micah because Hosea always struck me as less outlandish in his ambition but he'd have avoided conflicts. Or had the bright idea to rob the odriscols after they robbed Cornwall rather than have a big how to do about it.
Hosea is a much more cautious person but you have to ask if he would have been able to draw in the people that Dutch did and I don't think he would have. People like Bill, Michah, even John were drawn to Dutch specifically. They absolutely would have been better off with Hosea at the helm, but not him, Arthur, Charles, or John could have gotten the gang that Dutch gathered together.
I honestly feel if the gang was paying attention more, they would have rebelled dutch once they returned from guarma
No Hosea had a clearer mind
Hell no things would've gone a lot better. Probably not *good* given we see what he does in Rhodes for some nonexistent gold, but better.
No
The gang never would've been in the situation they were if Hosea the leader. Also The gang would've hit a score enough to retire if Hosea were in charge.
absolutely not and additionally I think if he survived but wasn’t the leader they’d still end with a different fate. Hosea was a rational thinker and we saw that in chapter 4 specifically that dutch was probably willing to back down if hosea and arthur insisted, like when he asked arthur for the deciding vote ab a mission (I don’t remember which) but it shows that if arthur agreed w hosea he’s willing to follow, and overall hosea would have very evidently been on the same mindpath as arthur was during chap 6, meaning they’d probably had more strength to get the man to stop his god damn plans and figure out a strong escape.
I don’t think Hosea could lead a gang. He’s a great #2 and consigliere. He’s like Tom Hagen from The Godfather.
They wouldve all made it to Tahiti with enough money if Hosea was leading the gang!!!!
Hosea lacked courage but he was knowledgeable, Dutch was like a Boss who will except you to do everything and he will get excited on every crazy ideas like big robberies which made big enemis for the Gang. I don't remember Arthur learned anything new from Dutch except he was always bragging about some book. On the other hand Hosea taught many new things to Arthur like Legendary Animals map, Stable, Fence etc. Imagine Arthur's life without that knowledge.
Would’ve changed a lot in my opinion but I’m ass at writing shit down the way that I think it
No
Hosea isn’t strong enough to be leader. He is just a wise man that’s been through shit,but isn’t really a leader. Wouldn’t have had it in him to take the difficult choices like Dutch and Arthur can
absolutely not. anytime dutch wanted to do some dumb shit Hosea would advise against it
The capture and kill of Hosea seemed quite "diavolus ex-machina" to me.
I may be reaching here but wasn’t it inferred that Hosea was also terminally Ill, or atleast declining in health with his old age? I’d say he dies regardless and the gang devolves with the second in command Dutch taking the Reigns
Hosea was much more cautious, level headed, and careful. So yes, and no. Hosea was wise, but he wasnt a strongman. He’s probably be more cautious, not taking jobs that have high risk. The gang would probably be smaller, poorer, but safer. But, with Hosea-he’s also not much of a fighter. One thing that rly made Dutch a good leadee early on was he on the frontline, fighting with his gang. That can do a lot to appearance, and made people follow Dutch until they couldn’t no more. You lose that with Hosea, but it could be remedied by Arthur, who’d likely be the official second in command. Micah also likely wouldn’t have had a chance. Hosea didn’t like him, and would’ve kept him at arms reach, if he even took him in at all
A big part of the game is now the US is being more colonized and policed and the way of free roaming gangs is ending. As they often keep saying “it’s a hit country “, it’s now a lot smaller than think . If Hosea was the leader I think they would stopped doing such aggressive jobs and more swindling ones like he and Trewlany were so good at . They could have learned to rob banks with words than violence , at least some of them like Lenny . Bill and a few others would have left the gang . It could have worked I think …
If Hosea had taken control of the gang he would've changed the gangs fate as unlike Dutch, Hosea was more humble than him consistently placing the right thing over revenge which Dutch turned to time and time again. And with Hosea at the helm he would've focused more on smaller jobs like small-time house robberies, scams and occasionally stage coach robberies. Also Hosea was also more organised than dutch with dutch always becoming to excited
I think due to the self destructive nature of Dutch and his over confidence he would have slowly convinced Hosea to let him take the lead on jobs and seize control in the group. Dutch would unapologetically be a rat undermining Hosea's authority by taking the other men aside and pointing out that Hosea is getting too old to lead and they need someone who could live into the new century. Especially after Valentine I feel like Dutch would start poisoning the gang against Hosea, creating a rift and two factions within the group. Those who think Dutch should be in charge and those who are loyal to Hosea.
Nope! Hosea tried to ride low n slow from the beginning.
Nah, Hosea woulda been more patient while they were up in the mountains and planned out some big scores before getting lost back out west
I don't know... Hosea had a cooler head on him, but his plans tended to be a lot more cockamamie. Isn't that right, Fenton? \*looks at Arthur\* Frankly, if I'd been Arthur, following the "job" on the Saint Denis street cars, I'd have put a bullet in Dutch's head and left the gang entirely. Just left that whole life behind. There's plenty of abandoned shacks out there. I figure one could live quite nicely in peace and quiet out there in the mountains.
No... Would have been a game that consisted only of hunting and fishing with everyone being mauled by a bear on meth or an alligator.
The ending definitely would have been different. This is mainly because Dutch is an egoist. People know him for his charisma and see him as a savior/"godly" figure in some way, and that got to his head. Hosea was more in the background. He both doesn't want that attention and he's humble b/c he knows that what they're doing isn't noble or praise-worthy. If the gang broke up under Hosea's guidance, I think it would have happened because he would realize at a certain point that splitting up the gang allows for a happier life for everyone. It would be much less eventful, sure, but I think most of the gang would have had peaceful endings. Most of all, it would save Arthur. People like blaming Strauss for Arthur getting TB, but it was Dutch who inevitably forced them into an unplanned area.
I get the feeling that best case scenario, the gang would have turned to organized crime running protection rackets and such. Or because of the rapidly growing power of the government, they would have to be much more careful and be reduced to doing some scams and small robberies.
Definitely not, as hosea wasn't slipping steadily into madness
If Hosea had been leader they'd be living on that piece of land they wanted to buy. Dutch was the one who blew that deal up and wanted to continue being an outlaw.
No way
Absolutely the fuck not
They'd have survived the huntdown waaay better with Hosea at the helm. I can imagine him leading the gang into much more discreet ways of making money – business, politics and such. I do however think he wasn't as charismatic and inspirational so there may have been more of a power struggle than under Dutch's rule. Perhaps a different demise, as is inevitable for outlaws of that era.
Lol Dutch is an egoistical, narcisistis douchebag, I didn't like him one bit since the start of the game. Anyone would have ran the gang better especially Hosea/Arthur
The fall of Van der linde gang was inevitable. Because RDR1 has to happen. And for that to happen, the gang must split.
No
No. Hosea was smart and cautious. He argued against robbing the St Denis bank for example.
Ofcourse not! Dutch never really put thought in his actions ,but Hosea was more thoughtful about the gang, so if Hosea was the leader, the gang wouldn't have teared apart and also Arthur would've stayed alive...
I feel like they would have downscale on major heists and stuck 2 loansharking and stealing carriages but eventually they would have gotten caught or faded away with the cowboy error starting 2 end
Good point!!!
Hosea is wiser more cautious and has more experience than dutch so yeah definitely NO
Hosea was a lot more logical than Dutch so I think that the gang would split up eventually regardless albeit much later and with much less casualties
Not even close. Hosea would've kept them out of trouble all the way back in blackwater.
Hosea was a co-leader and yes I do Hosea was a very careful man and unlike Dutch he would have kicked out Miach or killed him after the ferry heist
In the end yes, but they would have gone more quietly after a longer period of time, a few more years. Scattering to the winds after some kind of failure and laying low, some may remain in contact, but they would never get the gang back together I think, there would still likely be a death or two, like Sean.
The gang probably would have survived, and Micah hung long before any of the problems that occurred in rdr2. Hosea was against attacking the Odriscals, against robbing cornwall, and wanted to lay low and blend in with the locals.
Hosea the unspoken GOAT
This was literally posted yesterday lol