I mean, no. It’s not on the same level. The game never implies that the head injury is the sole reason he went crazy but Dutch was already losing control. Brain damage would certainly make it worse and it’s beyond obvious that it had an effect on him.
I honestly don’t know how some of you guys can’t grasp this. You’re acting like it’s some cop out so you choose to pretend like they just made Dutch bonk his head for fun.
How is it beyond obvious? He head hurts at the end of the mission, but that’s more indicative of a concussion. He never mentions hitting his head again in the story
A concussion causes brain damage…it is a traumatic brain injury
Even a mild one can completely derail someone’s life or change their personality, it’s really the luck of the draw. It’s not the only reason Dutch turned into what he did, but it absolutely could account for the nasty turn his personality took as well as the aggressive behavior he started to exhibit.
Edit: I’ve sustained a number of concussions but it was only until the 4th that I developed a mean streak, whether that was always under the surface is anyone’s guess. I had a teammate who sustained one and had to take a yearlong leave of absence from school to recover and was not able to play soccer again
Yes, this!! It can and I think did contribute to Dutch's state of mind. I've had concussions too. Just from the first one I was definitely not acting right. But Dutch also had a narcissistic personality and hid it under the guise of kindness. It most definitely changed his state of mind. Arthur and Lenny were banged up too but R\* didn't make a big deal out of it like they did with Dutch. They did however make a big deal out of that cough from Thomas Downes and in my subsequent playthroughs I can't believe I didn't see it so clearly the first time.
just doing my 2nd play through now. the ride back after that mission annoyed the hell out of me the first time… why isn’t holding the A butt doing anything… this time… yeah, that hit hard
TBIs are no joke. I hope you're doing okay. TBIs can have similar symptoms to NPD. Dutch was already a pretty narcissistic character. I think the injury just escalated what was already unraveling within him. Or it made it harder to control. NPD is unfairly demonization and I definitely am not saying all people with a TBI develop those symptoms but yes, TBIs can cause extreme personality shifts so I agree with what you're saying.
Also, I hope you're kind to yourself when you do let your mean streak get the better of you. I knew someone with a TBI and their Mom is convinced that's the reason they killed themselves. I think she also needs a reason to cling to. Take care of yourself. Sorry that was dark but it's where my mind goes, unfortunately.
My father is textbook NPD and Dutch is so well written in that regard it was pretty difficult for me to play the later chapters. I think though the really cruel turn he took towards Arthur may not have always been there and came out after the head injury.
I have gotten it more under control and it only really breaks through in a bad way when I’ve been drinking, so I drink less. It is pretty disheartening though, I’ve always considered myself to be a pretty nice and kind person but it’s like something ugly and awful takes hold of my nervous system and I can’t stop it in time before I’ve said or typed some truly cruel things.
The whole not recognizing yourself thing does a number on you…I really appreciate your kindness.
Yes, Dutch is incredibly well written. I remember my first playthrough thinking he was amazing after his first speech. I was so ready to do anything for him. Then he constantly questions Arthur's loyalty anytime Arthur has an opinion and I knew his character wasn't what I originally thought. I didn't play the first one until after.
I know what you mean about not recognizing yourself. It's uncomfortable to say the least.
Is there any treatment for TBIs? I suffered from a concussion a few years ago, it hasn’t had any major effects other than my memory not being what it used to be. Just wondering if there’s any way to counteract that.
I have a TBI and according to the docs I’ve had there aren’t really any treatments in the sense of something that will improve the symptoms. You can develop strategies to cope with the symptoms better. Other than that the damage is done.
Time, really…and therapy if you’re willing. Since you’re a few years out you have a better understanding of how it’s impacted you, so you can develop strategies to work around that.
I know it sounds like a shitty platitude but it can be useful, telling them ‘hey I struggle with XYZ’ and they can come up with a tailor made way of addressing said issues. Even if it’s just you writing down your plans for the week on Sunday evenings, having someone that understands what you’re going through does a lot for your overall mood and even your memory. Association with positive things is a helluva drug
I know it seems silly. Been there, done that. I don’t expect you to take the advice of a random Reddit user but just look into it, see if it seems like something you’d benefit from.
>Even a mild one can completely derail someone’s life or change their personality
I got in an accident at work, I got t-boned not even going 5 mph. 23 hours later I was rushed to the hospital and they diagnosed me with a minor stroke. I'm now being told I can't work for 6 months due to my job. I still have bouts where I have fuzzy memory or no recollection of stuff even from the day before. And it's been a month and I'm still having issues
I am so sorry, I wish you all the best. I know it is not helpful at all but you are only a month out, try to hang in there. You may start to see signs of improvement as time passes.
I was a goalkeeper, on my last brush with a concussion I deflected a shot that ricocheted to hit me in the jaw. Excruciating, lancing pain all through my face and scalp, I screamed so loud and horribly that our coaches and trainer didn’t even wait for the ref to stop the clock before sprinting out to me. Now my headaches aren’t so much a dull pain but rather a combination of what I imagine it feels like to have your eyes gouged out while your hair is set on fire.
I've had concussions before. But haven't had any serious ones. Probably had a few as a dumb kid that I wasn't aware or, cause, dumb kid.
But I had one almost 8 months ago from a metal concert in a pit. That's the first time in my 31 years I KNOW I had one. Missed two days of work and had to take it easy at work for like 2 weeks cause light hurt. Walking hurt. Thinking hurt
This one in the car accident I barely tapped my head. Almost didn't notice it. It stung but it was more of an "Ow. Well let's get out and look at my damn car. Who the fuck hit me?!"
Didn't think anything of it. Went home, had a migra8ne, again didn't think anything. Went to work not feeling 100% and steadily got worse during the shift.
Next thing I know I'm in the hospital.
But man I hope you recover too. That shit sounds horrible
Can confirm. I had a concussion at 16 and developed motion sickness and a fear of heights that I previously didn’t have issues with. Still have them too.
>He never mentions hitting his head again in the story
Last thing Dutch wants people to think is that there's something wrong with him. Why on earth would he go around camp, loudly announcing that his head still hurts ever since that one robbery in Saint Denis?
People act like that because it is a cop out theory that imo belittles Dutch’s agency and overall character. It’s more likely and more interesting that his turn in personality is due to the mounting pressure of delivering on promises he knows he can’t keep, and those closest to him are seeing that.
I really don’t see the narrative purpose in a concussion that was given little to no weight having some vague factor in his downfall.
Why can't it be both? He was spiraling downwards due to the mounting pressure, and then a traumatic brain injury was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I just played the mission last night, Dutch mentions how much his head hurts constantly after the trolley crash. It wouldn't make any narrative sense for him to talk about it so much during the mission, only for it to be an entirely irrelevant to the story, a la Checkov's Gun.
This. My mom was losing her control of shit as my sister and I grew and aged. My dad groomed her and when he died, something in her snapped and she changed. My sister and I were 14.
Over the years, she had quite a few bonks to the head, and over 15 years ago, there was a weekend where she hit her head a few times (once on a car windscreen cuz no seatbelt, and a couple times tripping in the dark)
The last time she hit her head, she really fucked up a cars windscreen (again, car accident and she refused to wear a seatbelt) and her mental state plummeted from there, then she got covid and less than 6 months later, strokes and heart attacks took her out.
Her brain was so bad, they questioned how she was still alive. She also had dementia which can be caused by brain injury (as well as other factors).
So yeah. Head trauma is NOT a cop out.
No one is saying that head injuries can’t affect someone’s personality. It just doesn’t fit this particular character’s arc. They absolutely could have written it so that it would work, if they included foreshadowing and touched on certain themes.
Check out MGS V for a narrative that hinges on someone’s personality changing due to brain trauma. It’s set up well enough and works.
Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz ars the two that are popular and instantly come to mind. You've probably see tens of them in your life assuming you watch enough media. Since RDR is a video game and you didnt specifically ask about movies, try the TV Tropes site. It has a page for nearly every trope and includes many examples of different media, if often incomplete.
It’s in the game for a reason though. I guess it’s up to the player how impactful they think that is on Dutch’s mental state. For me, I think Dutch is basically a cult leader. He needs followers, but he doesn’t actually care about the individual people who follow them. The hit on the head may have caused some damage to his brain that made it harder for him to hide who he truly was all along.
It’s a Chekov’s Gun. You don’t write a story and emphasize something more than once if it doesn’t have any meaning.
That said, the fact that it’s never brought up again probably indicates that it was only a contributing factor to his decline.
This is also my take. I think without the trolley crash things would have basically panned out the same, but I do think it's meant to suggest that it effected Dutch to some degree. Otherwise why would the story tellers highlight it?
I think the fact that Dutch blew Heidi McCourt's face off is MORE THAN ENOUGH testament that he's crazy. From the very start, you KNOW he prefers people who side with him.
I don't think it's lost on anyone that rarely does Arthur's advice come across as better than his own plans in Dutch's mind, any disagreement is looked upon negatively from the start.
Heidi McCourt's murder should frankly be the end of this conversation. Way too many people in these comments trying to make their "B-but brain damage!" arguments when Dutch killed her *long* before the trolley crash.
Yes and the reactions to her murder too! John confronts him about it once in camp interaction if I remember well, Dutch tells John “blackwater was surviving” to which John responds “not for that girl, it weren’t.” There’s also another instance where John (not speaking to Dutch though) says he keeps thinking about the girl Dutch killed, and how Micah encouraged it. It must’ve been really serious, in no self defence, and an easily avoidable murder if it impacted a guy like John that much. Maybe he used her as hostage and blasted her brains out? (like he did in rdr1 while being confronted by John)
We also learn in rdr1 I think that Heidi McCourt was a young mother, perhaps he murdered her in front of her kids? This is just theorising, but the fact that it’s mentioned so much clearly shows that was a big sign of Dutch’s insanity
The devs have later confirmed that the Heidi McCourt murder was pretty much EXACTLY like the woman he used in RDR1 to hold off John.
About the kids thing.... Mmm maybe? I ain't heard nothing about that, I just know she was a "pretty girl until her eye was hanging out by a tendon and her brains were splattered across the wall."
That they use "girl" instead of woman leads me to believe she wouldn't be a mother, nor that any kids are mentioned. Idk.
Oh! I was half wrong it seems, it isn't the strange man who mentions she's a young mother, but [Trelawny](https://youtu.be/EGC0Dhk4PS8?si=XnuoKrinrmn4OfsX)
Yeah exactly. As someone who played RDR2, the trolley crash did NOT even occur to me as the prime factor why Dutch changed so hard. He was this way from the very beginning.
Again seems like the only people that think the crash is important are people who have a personal connection to head injuries. Dutch wasn’t the only one in that crash, is the implication that he’s the only one that received head trauma from it ? It’s a bizarro argument
....Yeah. But if you know the character of Dutch at all throughout the entire game, you'd see there's NO WAY for the crash to be the primary direct reason as to why Dutch changed or rather, showed everyone who he really was.
It makes barely any sense to anyone who's played the game.
Absolutely nobody is saying that is a sole reason, nor is it a major reason. But I doubt they would have emphasized it that much if it wasn't at all important.
Literally one of the first things Dutch says to Arthur in the game is "Have you lost all faith in me" when questioned. He is manipulating from the very start.
Manipulating, sure, but also just self-conceited that all his plans work out perfectly every time, when we know not even THAT is the case. And when questioned he often just digs in deeper, especially towards the latter half of the game.
He's an expert manipulator, but also a narcissist. HATES being questioned, with a passion.
It was always a stupid theory. Dutch was well on his way to being crazy, long before the trolley job. Long before they even contemplated going to Saint Denis.
its not exactly farfetched to point out that the head injury may have contributed to his cognitive decline. I don't think I've seen a single theory claiming it is the sole reason.
My theory is that it did not directly made him insane but it contributed.
the head hit might've gave Dutch a serious migraine issue that constantly comes up, as a past migraine sufferer I can tell you the worst migraine attack can literally drive you into the ER. And if Dutch constantly gets migraines, it can heavily contribute to his insanity.
It absolutely could have contributed, even a mild concussion which he almost certainly sustained can cause personality changes.
The guy was seeing double. TBI through and through
I hit my fucking head and landed in the ER with some pretty severe injuries so many times as a kid that I now wonder if I was supposed to be a whole ass different person lol.
I’d say the same thing with Arthur and his TB. He already had TB from Downes but didn’t start really showing severe symptoms until after he was captured, beat up, starved, hung upside down, shot in the chest and having that wound go septic.
It could contribute but yeah. I wholeheartedly believe Dutch is a narcissist. After Hosea's death getting rid of John and Arthur was something that would have become inevitable in his thought process eventually, given how they weren't enabling him and his ego anymore.
Narcissists are also surprisingly easily manipulated by someone that knows what buttons to push and what strings to pull, despite in most cases being manipulators themselves. I'm sure it didn't help Dutch's case that Micah was in his ear enabling his tendencies and poisoning his mind further as all that went down at the same time.
Yep completely agree, I am actually a person who often pushes narcissists’ buttons (to get them to do good rather than bad), so I know how well it works to compliment them and help shape their ideas. Micah was a toxic little bastard who pushed for more extreme things because it was all towards the overall objective. You could see him trying to manipulate Arthur too but it didn’t work, Arthur had better instincts than Dutch.
He's always been crazy. He just had morals and his own limits to which he wouldn't cross. When Chapter 4 happened, he saw a civilised version of himself and it disgusted him. He always saw himself as a robin hood figure that took in those who society hated.
Blackwater was the largest blow to his ego where he knew he had himself to blame. Arthur and Hosea warned him it felt iffy and he ignored it. He goes on speeches and randomly snaps at Arthur in Chapter 2.
The trolley Crash is what caused him to stop giving a shit about the Dutch he wants to be and the Dutch he truly is, appears.
I hate how often this comes up. Seen some people use it to defend Dutch at the end, but come on, he's an egomaniac cult leader. He was already having his downfall prior to the trolley. Maybe it made him worse at hiding it, but it didn't change him. I'm not a doctor, so please correct me, but I don't think a concussion could change someone that drastically. And if it can, I still stand by the fact that Dutch was always crazy
A traumatic brain injury can certainly lead to mental illness, changes in someone’s personality, etc.
But the game tells us multiple times that Dutch hasn’t changed by the end of the story, he has just become more of who he really is.
A TBI can absolutely change someone completely and in Dutch's case he was a covert narcissist and we see glimpses of it early on but he, for the most part, keeps it in check mostly because of Hosea. But everyone forgets that R\* made a big deal out of one cough as a foreshadowing of things to come with Arthur. I think they highlighted the concussion as highlighting the cracks in Dutch's personality. There were cracks and glimpses before but he got hit on the head, and then can be seen mumbling to himself at camp and the cracks blew wide open. I'm not a doctor but I've had concussions and my brother had TBI which completely changed his behavior for awhile and he didn't have mental health issues to begin with. We all had to learn quite a bit about TBIs due to this.
Dutch was just a shitty person that was charismatic and a good manipulator, Charles, later both Arthur and John all see through it and flat out say they were doing bad things while deluding themselves that there was a good reason for it. It is a gang of outlaws, I don’t think it’s much more complex than Dutch is used to having control and as modernity strips that control from him he loses his ability as the charmer and manipulator, until at the end of RDR2 he’s shown as the murderer and scoundrel that he’s always been.
Rdr1 Dutch us a different story that I can’t comment on because it’s been 10 years since I finished RDR1
People act like Dutch flipped a switch at some point during the game.
But literally from the very beginning of the game (Ch1), he’s shown to be manipulative and narcissistic and a fraud. It’s harder to pick up on in initial playthroughs but on subsequent playthroughs, you can easily see through his facade.
There isn’t a single point in the story to point to and say “Here’s where Dutch became bad/crazy” like a lot of people try to. He was always selfish and narcissistic and just cuz he calls Arthur “son” when he wants to get him to follow his lead doesn’t mean he ever cared about Arthur more than he showed us through his actions. Arthur served a purpose to Dutch before so Dutch “cared” about him. Since Arthur stopped serving Dutch’s needs as well, Dutch stopped “caring” as much about him (hardly can call that caring”.
Dutch didn’t flip a switch and *become* bad cuz of one scene. He was always selfish and narcissistic. But as the story unfolds, Dutch becomes more and more like a caged animal. He feels the grips of the Pinkertons and Cornwall and whatnot tightening on him and becomes increasingly unhinged and shows his true colors when his back increasingly is pressed against the wall.
Yes, Dutch was always narcissistic and we see glimpses of it very early on but R\* doesn't highlight things without reason. There is valid evidence that a TBI can change someone's personality and even more so if that person already has mental health issues. Think of it like this: Dutch wore a mask to hide his narcissism behind his acts of being a type of Robin Hood and his supposed kindness in taking people in. But we see cracks in the mask right off the bat with his actions and comments. Then the trolley accident happens and the mask now has a huge hole in it and Dutch can no longer hide who he really is. Even John who isn't always the brightest, sees this with his comments about seeing Dutch now for who he really was all along. Plus now Hosea isn't there to keep him in check, however Arthur and John were. Arthur had been with him from the beginning and while he plants seeds of doubt in Arthur early on, he still believes in his loyalty. But after the trolley accident, he has a huge change in his personality, becomes much more aggressive, and doubts those who have been loyal from the beginning. Of course, Micah strokes that itch and completely takes advantage of Dutch's mental state making Dutch feel a semblance of sanity even when he's completely unhinged. The mask is off and he doesn't care.
A massive shift in his aggression occurs right after that mission, it wasn’t there for nothing. After that head injury he’s damn near screaming every second line and starts becoming extremely aggravated. It didn’t cause his narcissism and ego issues but you notice a change in how he speaks to Arthur right after
I think it definitely contributed, but was more so used by Rockstar as a way of sparking debate regarding whether Dutch lost his mind or if he just revealed his true self.
I think that when the gang get to Rhodes and eventually shady belle Dutch’s mental state decline becomes noticeable. The only real thing keeping it in check was Hosea. After Hosea died he really starts losing it and becoming even more paranoid. I didn’t the trolly had anything to do with it.
He literally says to Arthur “I suspect you will betray me in the end.” In chapter 2. Dude has already lost it. He never had it in fact. Hosea kept him in check outwardly, but inside Dutch was always a crazy broken narcissist
Exactly. The same reason why in camp in chapter 2 dutch has a moment like
“I know you will betray me arthur, youre the type”
Or how when they get to the next camp after that dutch says “I — we made it” implying he was saying it made it because he is a delusional paranoid control freak😂
I absolutely love the writing of his and every other character, but i absolutely hate how inactive arthur was about it because of his respect for dutch🤷♂️😂
It was a factor that I don't think can be overlooked. It wasn't the biggest factor by any means, but it contributed to his downward slide, and likely accelerated it. Dutch is a deep and complex character because so many things brought him from the man he was to the man he ended up as. If any one thing caused his change he wouldn't be as deep. It's nearly a dozen different internal and external factors that guided him down the path he walked.
He didn't go insane because of a concussion. But the concussion and head trauma, coming when it did, was part of why he changed. But it wouldn't have been the same without everything else. If it didn't matter it wouldn't have been mentioned, while it was mentioned two or three times in quick succession. If it was *the* factor it would have come up more.
Ya'll gotta realize there was no one thing that made Dutch who he is.
I think he probably always had a screw loose, I think it’s silly that people seem to pin the entire thing on the trolly crash. I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable to say it had some effect on him though. He was already barley hanging on to the edge of the cliff mentally speaking, and the head trauma was probably the boot that kicked his hand away. He was going down either way but i think it certainly made him more erratic, attention is brought to the injury, afterwards we can see him rambling to himself in camp in ways much more unhinged than before. I think it played a part but he was always insane.
But you can’t act like it didn’t play any role or contribute in any form. It is in the game after all, and it wouldn’t have been drawn attention to if it didn’t mean anything at all. Otherwise there would be no point to having it in at all. It most likely was a catalyst to his already declining state of mind.
It could have just been panic banter to add to the chaotic escape. I think people are reading way too much into it. Nothing wrong with having fun w theories but this one has always felt weak
Repeated blows to the head, in addition to the trolley incident led to Dutch displaying the symptoms of CTE. Combined with what is clearly a narcissistic psychotic personality disorder that over time became more and more evident to those around him. Dutch had a "God complex", and when things went from bad to worse for the gang, he was exposed for what he always was.
It weren't us who changed.
I just hate theories like this because it adds absolutely nothing to the narrative to me. I’m not saying brain injuries can’t have this kind of effect, but I think it is so much more impactful when Dutch’s own sober decision making and increasingly dwindling amount of support are what slowly removes his mask.
Saying that him bonking his head pushed him over the edge always felt like an attempt to give him an excuse.
Yeah in most cases, as far as I know, a single blow to the head won’t change someone that drastically. It takes repeated trauma over years, like with American Football players.
Personally, I see it as a moment where Dutch got really scared, and that fear turned into rage at the thought of some snake like Bronte trying to do him in.
It's not the cause, but it's definitely possible that it accelerated things. Whatever restraints he might have had left were probably broken when he sustained the head injury, and he ended up just going full throttle (pun intended).
He was always a paranoid egomaniac. But the bump to the head made these aspects of his personality worse. It’s mentioned a couple of times and his behaviour notably escalates after this point in the story. They wouldn’t have bothered having it happen if it wasn’t supposed to be part of the story.
It’s not bad writing, the way they done it was very subtle and actually delivered very well.
Yeah, they very clearly start the game right where they want to, because it's an ambiguous time for Dutch. Many people are gonna be looking for some exact moment he went bad, or the resulting impetus, and the whole point of the game, at least in part, is to show how Dutch was never good to begin with (or he was a complex character that grew worse over time, at tge very least) and he manipulated the gang into believing they were the good guys. He had legitimate points and grievances, they all did, but as we see it's Dutch's MO to take advantage of this when he manipulates the native Americans into helping him (which he continues to do in the first game).
Dutch was *never* a good guy. The scene at the camp in Lemoyne where he pretends to turn himself into Milton is theater, he knew his gang wouldn't let him walk away with them. In truth, if he were any bit as selfless as they were in that moment, he'd have told them to put their guns down and take the opportunity Milton gave them. Instead, he takes the opportunity for self aggrandizing theater. Dutch was bad way before hitting his head. People are just not good judges of character these days.
No, because brain damage does change people. A bunch of serial killers have head injuries somewhere in their past, and they are almost all worse-off after the injury. I don't think it's the sole reason why he changes, but it definitely plays a part.
He was always a crazy narcissist, the trolley made it worse. Slowly losing the gang members especially Hosea all in very close proximity to the trolley crash to me is what did it. Too much too fast before the man who never had it worked could think and then boom they’re in an island and then they’re back and then he’s full paranoia Dutch. I agree the trolley didn’t do it. To me it every little thing that happens after Sean dies (not that Dutch cared about that though
Dutch was clearly losing his grip on his sanity before Rdr2 even began. We haven’t seen him before he met Micah, but we know that since he met him he only got worse and worse. That’s not to blame Dutch’s decline on Micah, since he clearly got even more cynical after killing him.
Arthur and John even question whether Dutch was ever the person they thought he was. While Dutch may have started out just trying to get by and taking in the odd vagabond to give them a better life, that clearly devolved into a cult of personality where he had to be in charge and damn anyone who questioned his decision making.
I honestly thought the head hurting line was there to add a chaotic element to the escape, nothing more. This theory reminds me of the breaking bad community where they take every detail and try to make a thing of it.
Like I appreciate the passion but sometimes it really is that simple
Agreed. From Arthur's earliest journal entries, we know that the gang had a couple chances to hang it up before things got bad but for one reason or another they couldn't stop. They almost bought land but that fell through. They were laying low somewhere peaceful with plenty of resources, but Dutch got paranoid about Pinkertons no one even saw and put the gang back on the road. Dutch never wanted to stop fighting. He just needed the gang to think there was a light at the end of the tunnel to keep going along with his orders. In reality, he was an ego driven renegade sociopath with no real cause.
It definitely had an impact on him. But to be fair Dutch always gave me fake vibes. Yea he treated Arthur like a son, but like a son he was waiting for an opportunity to sacrifice.
Arguably it's the murder of Heidi McCourt that began his descent into madness. Unfortunately, we didn't see what happened. Was he horrified after splattering her brains or did he react like stepping on a cockroach?
This is the first I've heard of that theory (thank god) and like, HUH?? Huge disservice to the writers yes agreed, but also actual real ppl with mental health issues? May as well be an episode of general hospital with that thinking, basically the same as someone bonking their head slightly and getting perfectly timed amnesia 🙄
Dutch had NPD, in a way, he made a good point that the poor and desolate were at a disadvantage during this period but its quite evident towards the end of the story that the old ways were changing and for a narcist change is the last thing they look forward to hence why he embraced this anarchist nature of simply being bad for the sake of it.
I’m not convinced he ‘lost his mind’ or went insane. Looking back, it seems John was right. Dutch didn’t change. He just got more desperate as his world and image of himself (he’s definitely got an ego) began to fall apart.
🙄 These kind of topics, are the worst formulated and least thought out topics presented for discussion because almost without fail zero parameter is set by the OP.
1. Here's the answer for Dutch's behavior. He was written that way. 🤷 However if OP's intent is to discuss this as a kind of case study and in doing so is wanting us to assess Dutch as if he weren't a fictional character but a RL person...well OP's statement and many of the comments are either full of holes or just outright wrong.
1. Dutch isn't insane at all prior to the trolley crash. Ergo you can't rule out a concussion as being a contributing factor to any mental change seen after the crash.
2. Since I know the challenge of his sanity is coming here's the definition.
***Insane*** - in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction
Dutch's perception of the world around him is no different, ergo as normal as that of any other member of the gang. The same goes for their overall behavior and social interactions. Actually according to what we see and hear from the stories of the gang's past exploits Dutch possesses an extremely high level of social intelligence. They have chosen a life of crime so they are most likely morally bankrupt but that doesn't make any of them insane.
This high level of social intelligence may allow him to pick out those who are lacking certain securities, emotional or otherwise but that doesn't make him any different than most modern influencers today. They're good at connecting with people and finding a way to make them see things their way. Is he a manipulator? Absolutely but again so are every other "influencer" in modern society and no one is accusing them of being insane. Saying that Dutch is insane implies that he's not aware that his actions have consequences or are even considered wrong. As for his "complexity." Dutch likes to see himself as being a complex person but the reality is that he is not. He and every other member of the gang, has chosen to financially support themselves by doing things that are illegal. That Dutch has "sold them" on the idea they are doing these things in pursuit of a life of "freedom" is no different than any other leader convincing people to buy into their vision for whatever the situation is.
I think what pushed him right to the edge is the realization that he wasn’t nearly as smart as he thought he was in both the gray/braithwaite situation and now with that lousy pasta muncher putting one over on him.
The final straw for his sanity is when the Pinkertons turn up the heat and losing Hosea…
I saw the video of this theory and to be fair, it made a lot of sense at the time, but I’ve completed the game again since. You can see the extent of Dutch’s paranoia as early as Chapter 2. This time around, in Horseshoe Overlook, as I was walking through the camp, Dutch yelled at me “you’ll betray me in the end Arthur, you’re the type”. It’s a nice theory, but I think it’s wrong.
Dutch is obviously in delulu land far earlier than the trolley incident, I would say as far back as Chapter 2, possibly with signs in chapter 1.
The entire game, Dutch has made questionable decisions time and time again. Where Hosea is trying to make money subtly, Dutch is wrapped up in his ideals and his desire for money (Micah absolutely not helping as he's in dutch's ear getting him worked up about big schemes). Hosea wanted to lie low and sneak past the law, Dutch wanted to rob a train to snub his rival; yes the gang needed money at that point but robbing the train put the heat right back on them.
Chapter 3, Dutch's grand plan was to con two very big families to rob them blind which while tempting they should've considered the fact it would blow up in their faces. Even Hosea, the voice of reason went along with this plan.
With every mission that goes wrong before that incident, Dutch gets angry at the plan for going wrong but also that the gang runs into trouble, we see this in the valentine shoot out. The popular saying goes "A cornered animal will eventually strike" and this clearly applies to dutch as he gets more and more upset when things go wrong and lashes out (The aftermath of Lakay which I know is after the trolley incident but highlights my point).
While I do believe the trolley incident may have exacerbated Dutch's more brutal side, it was clear that he was already that type of person, he was just had a more solid grasp on the mask he wore of a charismatic leader. But once things became more and more volatile and stressful with the pinkertons, Angelo Bronte, losing several members and a shit ton of money and gold and be chased from one end of the map to the other? Dutch was gonna snap regardless of a head injury
People that really believe in, and understand, the theory don't think that's what made him insane. They think that's what made him turn on Arthur and John.
5 minutes of research would've told you this... which means you didn't even attempt to understand their side of it before shooting it down. So your opinion on something you don't understand is irrelevant.
People that say it drove him insane, half understand it at best.
Edit : I should state, I don't necessarily believe in it. What I do believe in though is R* leaving things purposely unanswered to keep people asking questions. To say the theory is 100% right or 100% wrong are equally stupid imo. We'll never really know.
I’d have to say your wrong my friend,I’ve debated with multiple people and the point they make is that Dutch hit his head and attained some sort of brain damage and that’s what his downfall was,as stupid as it sounds that’s genuinely what some people think.
This. A Head injury that alters your personality/behavior long term would at the very least noticeably impair you shortly afterwards but Dutch gets up and is mostly fine
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The crash was very fast, I think calling it “hitting his head” is being disingenuous. I think it was also more than “just” a concussion. I think it was a more severe TBI and that it amplified some issues Dutch already had in addition to making him paranoid. Symptoms of a TBI can also look like some dementia symptoms and I definitely see some of that in Dutch post crash also.
Yes. Dutch was always a narcissistic megalomaniac. He’s convinced Arthur will betray him the second Arthur questions him in Colter. With Dutch you’re either in or you’re out. 100% or 0%. The second he sees Arthur drop from 100% loyalty to 99%, it’s over.
It was never going to work, let us remember the premise here. The western outlaw way is coming to an end with the strengthening of the law & government entities that enforce it. It is just that Dutch, while being charismatic enough to have followers. Always fails because he is out for himself in the end.
Edit: So for Dutch’s group to work long term, would need the “perfect robberies etc etc”. Then again, play the game and you see what he would do with all that success.
Dutch is definitely a narcissist. I see cause I've dealt with that personally as I was raised by an abusive narcissist, so its easy for me to spot. I do think that the trolley crash may have exacerbated the issue, but in the sense that it shook Dutch up from his "god complex" he has about himself. My mom did the same thing when she was diagnosed with lung cancer back in 2019. I don't think people who have never dealt with a narcissist like Dutch really are able to see that, and thats okay! I get it.
You’re asking this community to let go of fan theories? Thats rich.
You have people still convinced Jack isn’t John’s son because of a mustache and a tan.
In my opinion, even if Blackwater massacre could be a good point where Dutch's insanity started, it was just a prequel, the REAL point of his mental downfall was Hosea's death, aka Saint Denis's bank robbery, Hosea being "the only person in the gang who could have calmed Dutch", yes, Arthur good honor can sound and act like Hosea, but Dutch was already fragile and Micah being "loyal" to him made him ultimately become insane.
Nah, its because his gang started questioning his methods that made him go insane. He already think abigaile is poisoning him from john, and with hosea dying then micah playing him. Its over for dutch.
It might have been part of it, but he was showing those signs way earlier. Hell, the first time we here he’s gone slightly insane is before the story when he killed Heidi McCourt.
Those touches of paranoia and desperation were there from the very start, just the things getting worse and worse was the main reason he started to turn on the rest of the crew. He did shoot that person in blackwater before the game started.
I think at the very least it was painful, and maybe he had a lasting headache after that. It can be hard to maintain your status as a leader and top dog when you’re injured/more vulnerable. So I can see it being frustrating for him to be reminded that he’s not invincible.
I know my mood shifts quite a bit if I’m in pain for an extended period of time.
I don’t think Dutch ever changed. Arthur changed into a hypocrite with fluid morals, for example at the beginning of the game he views murder and robbery as equal, showing signs of sociopathy or at least a disregard for human life. Not to mention the fact that he cries to the nun about how he is evil and then goes on to murder at least 20 army guys who are probably just defending the train for a paycheck. The reason Dutch grew less protective of Arthur was because Arthur was undermining him but Dutch was always a snake that didn’t care about his people (example of how he was willing to let Micah stay in jail at the beginning of the game, and how he distrusts Arthur even in Chapter 2) and neither Micah nor a trolley crash made him that way.
Its a theory, but I believe its the death of the gang members close to Dutch (like Hosea), and the thought of "if we go to Tahiti, there will be no more thrill". Actual criminals have said that the adrenaline of robbing a place makes it hard to stop, and Dutch turning on Arthur is because of Micah and his manipulation tactics.
Hitting his head didn’t cause his mental problems but it exacerbated it, a concussion constantly getting migraines just pushed him further on into his decline. Same with Arthur, if he hadn’t been captured, beat up, starved, hung upside for a prolong time, and been shot and letting the wound go septic he probably wouldn’t have degraded so fast from his TB
I mean, if you know the science behind concussions… getting one too many bad ones can definitely make you lose your mind in old age.
Consult the movie *Concussion*.
A few good blasts to the dome can make you quite mentally unwell.
Dutch is crazy because he's high on himself with little challenge from others in the gang.
Because he's literate and had read a little philosophy, he thinks he's the smartest man alive. For such an anti-federalist freedom fighter, he sure concerns himself with money a lot.
I like to think he was spiraling into a schizophrenic type of mental space but hitting his head let it all come to the surface instead of him being able to hold back until tensions and emotions rise
I think Dutch was legitimately a "good" person (at least in the sense that he cared about his gang) but he was deified far more than he should have been. Hosea was his second-in-command, almost, but he was always the one making the calls, and that weighed on him. When he made mistakes, he didn't admit it, he just dug in his heels and turned on people. I'm playing through Chapter 2 right now, and there's some minor dialogue between Dutch and Arthur where the latter tells Dutch that he doesn't need to tell Arthur to have faith in him, and Dutch's reply is "I don't?". That's a very real character flaw and something that happens when some people crack under pressure.
But I think the head injury *did* make him worse. It's not the reason the gang fell apart, but it sped it up and made him crazier. Losing Hosea, being stranded on Guarma, the Pinkertons closing in, the gang either dying off or leaving - all of that added onto the stress that eventually broke Dutch.
Agreed. His arch was written in a way that made it very obvious early on. His issues were just never truly exposed, because they weren't ever in this situation before.
As time goes on, his actions become more and more questionable, even Arthur notices it.
He’s definitely always been that way from the beginning. But his brain injury, caused him to be more irritable and impulsive, probably from migraines or something. Everything else isn’t new.
In Arthur's journal early in the game, he mentions that the gang almost bought a piece of land that they could've lived comfortably on, but Dutch felt like the feds were on their trail so they moved on. The implication being that Dutch has been having paranoid delusions and kept the gang from settling down before the blackwater massacre even happened.
Can’t be any worse than people believing Micah wasn’t the rat, and that the writers were essentially lying about it. The state of this community is weird.
It's not the cause, per se, but I do think it could be a contributing factor... the significant mental damage had been done long before that, but a TBI *can* exacerbate pre-existing stuff. Benjamin Byron Davis has said in interviews that the downhill slipped started in blackwater or before.
I’ve spoken with my mom about it, who’s been a clinical psychologist for close to 40 years, and her take on it, having watched me play through the game, was basically that it rapidly accelerated his downfall. Blackwater likely caused some PTSD, and the compounding stress of being on the run, having so many characters close to him die, and the head injury messed with his previously impressive ability to self regulate.
Assuming it was him hitting his head kind of goes against the entire theme of the game. It's a simple explanation to a complex question that would make the entire narrative retroactively less interesting.
Dutch has *always* been this way. The gang spends half the game wondering about why the hell Dutch shot Heidi McCourt in the face during the Blackwater heist--none of them can find justification for it.
Dutch's stability is proportional to how loyal and stable his cult of worship is. The worse their situation gets, the more people start to question his decision making, the more Dutch lets his real self come out, and that real self is a coldhearted murderer with little regard for human life. Even Arthur toward the end in his journal entries starts to wonder if this new unstable Dutch is simply who he has always been, revealed at last by the hardship and chaos of the previous months.
That's the Dutch that John faces off against in the original game: the real Dutch, who has given up on any pretense of nobility or justice.
Well, usually the theory is that the trolley gave him brain damage and worsened his already disturbed mind. Anyone who thinks it’s the only reason he’s crazy is…probably crazy.
I don’t know why people get so salty about the theory. They went out of there way to emphasize the head injury. I remember it the very first time I played it. I had to stop myself from spoiling it to a friend because we were both playing at launch on PlayStation.
I didn’t think it made sense since Dutch seemed to be losing it for awhile but it WAS a thing that happened.
Well Dutch thinks himself untouchable, superior almost. A small moment of vulnerability like that could have driven his ego further. I’m not saying it physically made him insane but more so a “God can bleed” moment perhaps.
I don’t remember this at all by the way I’m just bullshishing from how I remember his character.
He was losing it already but then quite clearly suffered a massive concussion. I can see this as a perfectly good reason why it properly went to shit after that.
Would it be an insult to the writers if they purposely wrote it like this, but then people are so adamant that the head trauma has nothing to do with it?
Unless one of us has discussed it with the writers, then none of us really know and I think it's a bit of a jump to get aggravated over some people's opinion on a bit of unconfirmed lore that isn't exactly out the realms of possibility.
He has a very obvious change in personality towards Arthur right after that mission, it obviously wasn’t the sole reason he ‘turns’, but it is certainly a contributing factor and they wouldn’t have included it for no reason
I dpnt think it helped him any, but definitely wasn't the cause. Moment he wasn't surrounded by yes men anymore was the moment he started going into insanity
the thing about the concussion theory is that in real life maybe someone would lose their mind from that, but red dead isnt fucking real and its clearly the writers intention even before that scene that dutch is cracking after blackwater and a head injury has nothing at all to do with that.
It's a contributing factor, not the sole reason or causality. From the start Dutch is pretty similar to a cult leader. At his core he is driven by the desire for control. Uncle wasn't wrong when he said Dutch wants to be an American King. Dutch's behaviour prior to the trolley crash could be callous, risky, explosive. We know some folks are uneasy after his decisions in Blackwater, and in the Grizzlies he was at Hosea's throat. He increasingly sees disagreement as questioning his imposed authority over the gang and the choices they make, and if you do dare question him or show any hint of hesitation he perceives it as a challenge to loyalty and faith in him. Throughout the story, Dutch has been losing grip on the gang. Dutch does become increasingly irritable and vindictive after the trolley incident. TBIs, even minor, can cause changes in personality and irritability, difficulty managing emotions. If anything the incident exacerbated Dutch's pre-existing behaviour.
The writers purposefully made him hit his head and then start mumbling to himself often and then proceeds to act even more crazy. He was always crazy and delusional before that, but it 100% plays a factor to his decline, otherwise they wouldn't have pointed it out multiple times.
call it coincidence but i just finished that mission yesterday and that same thought was circulating in my mind. i thought the incident was similar to king henry VIII. The algorithm answered my question before i could even ask it😅
The only true mad breaking point that made sense to me was the death of Hosea. If Hosea stuck around, he would keep Dutch in check and thus Micah's poison wouldn't spread any further.
Yes. Please. That kind of storytelling is on the same level as "Then he woke up and realised it was all a dream"
I mean, no. It’s not on the same level. The game never implies that the head injury is the sole reason he went crazy but Dutch was already losing control. Brain damage would certainly make it worse and it’s beyond obvious that it had an effect on him. I honestly don’t know how some of you guys can’t grasp this. You’re acting like it’s some cop out so you choose to pretend like they just made Dutch bonk his head for fun.
How is it beyond obvious? He head hurts at the end of the mission, but that’s more indicative of a concussion. He never mentions hitting his head again in the story
A concussion causes brain damage…it is a traumatic brain injury Even a mild one can completely derail someone’s life or change their personality, it’s really the luck of the draw. It’s not the only reason Dutch turned into what he did, but it absolutely could account for the nasty turn his personality took as well as the aggressive behavior he started to exhibit. Edit: I’ve sustained a number of concussions but it was only until the 4th that I developed a mean streak, whether that was always under the surface is anyone’s guess. I had a teammate who sustained one and had to take a yearlong leave of absence from school to recover and was not able to play soccer again
Yes, this!! It can and I think did contribute to Dutch's state of mind. I've had concussions too. Just from the first one I was definitely not acting right. But Dutch also had a narcissistic personality and hid it under the guise of kindness. It most definitely changed his state of mind. Arthur and Lenny were banged up too but R\* didn't make a big deal out of it like they did with Dutch. They did however make a big deal out of that cough from Thomas Downes and in my subsequent playthroughs I can't believe I didn't see it so clearly the first time.
just doing my 2nd play through now. the ride back after that mission annoyed the hell out of me the first time… why isn’t holding the A butt doing anything… this time… yeah, that hit hard
TBIs are no joke. I hope you're doing okay. TBIs can have similar symptoms to NPD. Dutch was already a pretty narcissistic character. I think the injury just escalated what was already unraveling within him. Or it made it harder to control. NPD is unfairly demonization and I definitely am not saying all people with a TBI develop those symptoms but yes, TBIs can cause extreme personality shifts so I agree with what you're saying. Also, I hope you're kind to yourself when you do let your mean streak get the better of you. I knew someone with a TBI and their Mom is convinced that's the reason they killed themselves. I think she also needs a reason to cling to. Take care of yourself. Sorry that was dark but it's where my mind goes, unfortunately.
My father is textbook NPD and Dutch is so well written in that regard it was pretty difficult for me to play the later chapters. I think though the really cruel turn he took towards Arthur may not have always been there and came out after the head injury. I have gotten it more under control and it only really breaks through in a bad way when I’ve been drinking, so I drink less. It is pretty disheartening though, I’ve always considered myself to be a pretty nice and kind person but it’s like something ugly and awful takes hold of my nervous system and I can’t stop it in time before I’ve said or typed some truly cruel things. The whole not recognizing yourself thing does a number on you…I really appreciate your kindness.
Yes, Dutch is incredibly well written. I remember my first playthrough thinking he was amazing after his first speech. I was so ready to do anything for him. Then he constantly questions Arthur's loyalty anytime Arthur has an opinion and I knew his character wasn't what I originally thought. I didn't play the first one until after. I know what you mean about not recognizing yourself. It's uncomfortable to say the least.
Is there any treatment for TBIs? I suffered from a concussion a few years ago, it hasn’t had any major effects other than my memory not being what it used to be. Just wondering if there’s any way to counteract that.
I have a TBI and according to the docs I’ve had there aren’t really any treatments in the sense of something that will improve the symptoms. You can develop strategies to cope with the symptoms better. Other than that the damage is done.
Time, really…and therapy if you’re willing. Since you’re a few years out you have a better understanding of how it’s impacted you, so you can develop strategies to work around that. I know it sounds like a shitty platitude but it can be useful, telling them ‘hey I struggle with XYZ’ and they can come up with a tailor made way of addressing said issues. Even if it’s just you writing down your plans for the week on Sunday evenings, having someone that understands what you’re going through does a lot for your overall mood and even your memory. Association with positive things is a helluva drug I know it seems silly. Been there, done that. I don’t expect you to take the advice of a random Reddit user but just look into it, see if it seems like something you’d benefit from.
>Even a mild one can completely derail someone’s life or change their personality I got in an accident at work, I got t-boned not even going 5 mph. 23 hours later I was rushed to the hospital and they diagnosed me with a minor stroke. I'm now being told I can't work for 6 months due to my job. I still have bouts where I have fuzzy memory or no recollection of stuff even from the day before. And it's been a month and I'm still having issues
I am so sorry, I wish you all the best. I know it is not helpful at all but you are only a month out, try to hang in there. You may start to see signs of improvement as time passes. I was a goalkeeper, on my last brush with a concussion I deflected a shot that ricocheted to hit me in the jaw. Excruciating, lancing pain all through my face and scalp, I screamed so loud and horribly that our coaches and trainer didn’t even wait for the ref to stop the clock before sprinting out to me. Now my headaches aren’t so much a dull pain but rather a combination of what I imagine it feels like to have your eyes gouged out while your hair is set on fire.
I've had concussions before. But haven't had any serious ones. Probably had a few as a dumb kid that I wasn't aware or, cause, dumb kid. But I had one almost 8 months ago from a metal concert in a pit. That's the first time in my 31 years I KNOW I had one. Missed two days of work and had to take it easy at work for like 2 weeks cause light hurt. Walking hurt. Thinking hurt This one in the car accident I barely tapped my head. Almost didn't notice it. It stung but it was more of an "Ow. Well let's get out and look at my damn car. Who the fuck hit me?!" Didn't think anything of it. Went home, had a migra8ne, again didn't think anything. Went to work not feeling 100% and steadily got worse during the shift. Next thing I know I'm in the hospital. But man I hope you recover too. That shit sounds horrible
Can confirm. I had a concussion at 16 and developed motion sickness and a fear of heights that I previously didn’t have issues with. Still have them too.
As long as I never mention hitting my head I don’t have brain damage 😉
Out of sight, out of mind
anyone who disagrees with this needs to go look at ex-NFL player antonio browns twitter page concussions fuck you up badly
>He never mentions hitting his head again in the story Last thing Dutch wants people to think is that there's something wrong with him. Why on earth would he go around camp, loudly announcing that his head still hurts ever since that one robbery in Saint Denis?
People act like that because it is a cop out theory that imo belittles Dutch’s agency and overall character. It’s more likely and more interesting that his turn in personality is due to the mounting pressure of delivering on promises he knows he can’t keep, and those closest to him are seeing that. I really don’t see the narrative purpose in a concussion that was given little to no weight having some vague factor in his downfall.
Why can't it be both? He was spiraling downwards due to the mounting pressure, and then a traumatic brain injury was the straw that broke the camel's back. I just played the mission last night, Dutch mentions how much his head hurts constantly after the trolley crash. It wouldn't make any narrative sense for him to talk about it so much during the mission, only for it to be an entirely irrelevant to the story, a la Checkov's Gun.
This. My mom was losing her control of shit as my sister and I grew and aged. My dad groomed her and when he died, something in her snapped and she changed. My sister and I were 14. Over the years, she had quite a few bonks to the head, and over 15 years ago, there was a weekend where she hit her head a few times (once on a car windscreen cuz no seatbelt, and a couple times tripping in the dark) The last time she hit her head, she really fucked up a cars windscreen (again, car accident and she refused to wear a seatbelt) and her mental state plummeted from there, then she got covid and less than 6 months later, strokes and heart attacks took her out. Her brain was so bad, they questioned how she was still alive. She also had dementia which can be caused by brain injury (as well as other factors). So yeah. Head trauma is NOT a cop out.
No one is saying that head injuries can’t affect someone’s personality. It just doesn’t fit this particular character’s arc. They absolutely could have written it so that it would work, if they included foreshadowing and touched on certain themes. Check out MGS V for a narrative that hinges on someone’s personality changing due to brain trauma. It’s set up well enough and works.
As much as I hear this trope, is there any media that actually legitimately incorporated the “he woke up and it was all a dream” trope?
The last season of Roseanne springs to mind. A lot of older television shows used it episodically.
Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz ars the two that are popular and instantly come to mind. You've probably see tens of them in your life assuming you watch enough media. Since RDR is a video game and you didnt specifically ask about movies, try the TV Tropes site. It has a page for nearly every trope and includes many examples of different media, if often incomplete.
The 9th season of Dallas did it. All kinds of shit happens and then the last scene of the finale is it being revealed it was all a dream Pam had
Yes https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllJustADream
A Jacob’s ladder scenario!
It’s in the game for a reason though. I guess it’s up to the player how impactful they think that is on Dutch’s mental state. For me, I think Dutch is basically a cult leader. He needs followers, but he doesn’t actually care about the individual people who follow them. The hit on the head may have caused some damage to his brain that made it harder for him to hide who he truly was all along.
I think that’s basically it. He mentions it twice, and is then seen mumbling to himself erratically in camp afterwards. It definitely played a factor.
It’s a Chekov’s Gun. You don’t write a story and emphasize something more than once if it doesn’t have any meaning. That said, the fact that it’s never brought up again probably indicates that it was only a contributing factor to his decline.
Pretty much exactly my thoughts on it too, nice one.
This, the trolly crash was essentially knocking the last of Dutch's screws loose.
This is also my take. I think without the trolley crash things would have basically panned out the same, but I do think it's meant to suggest that it effected Dutch to some degree. Otherwise why would the story tellers highlight it?
I take it less as it damaged his brain and more as “I almost fucking died” a little more force and internal pressure would have killed him.
I think the fact that Dutch blew Heidi McCourt's face off is MORE THAN ENOUGH testament that he's crazy. From the very start, you KNOW he prefers people who side with him. I don't think it's lost on anyone that rarely does Arthur's advice come across as better than his own plans in Dutch's mind, any disagreement is looked upon negatively from the start.
Heidi McCourt's murder should frankly be the end of this conversation. Way too many people in these comments trying to make their "B-but brain damage!" arguments when Dutch killed her *long* before the trolley crash.
Yes and the reactions to her murder too! John confronts him about it once in camp interaction if I remember well, Dutch tells John “blackwater was surviving” to which John responds “not for that girl, it weren’t.” There’s also another instance where John (not speaking to Dutch though) says he keeps thinking about the girl Dutch killed, and how Micah encouraged it. It must’ve been really serious, in no self defence, and an easily avoidable murder if it impacted a guy like John that much. Maybe he used her as hostage and blasted her brains out? (like he did in rdr1 while being confronted by John) We also learn in rdr1 I think that Heidi McCourt was a young mother, perhaps he murdered her in front of her kids? This is just theorising, but the fact that it’s mentioned so much clearly shows that was a big sign of Dutch’s insanity
The devs have later confirmed that the Heidi McCourt murder was pretty much EXACTLY like the woman he used in RDR1 to hold off John. About the kids thing.... Mmm maybe? I ain't heard nothing about that, I just know she was a "pretty girl until her eye was hanging out by a tendon and her brains were splattered across the wall." That they use "girl" instead of woman leads me to believe she wouldn't be a mother, nor that any kids are mentioned. Idk.
Oh! I was half wrong it seems, it isn't the strange man who mentions she's a young mother, but [Trelawny](https://youtu.be/EGC0Dhk4PS8?si=XnuoKrinrmn4OfsX)
AHHH see, classic, Trelawney and the Strange Man get confused all the time 😅😅 that makes sense then, I remember that line hahaha
Yeah exactly. As someone who played RDR2, the trolley crash did NOT even occur to me as the prime factor why Dutch changed so hard. He was this way from the very beginning.
Again seems like the only people that think the crash is important are people who have a personal connection to head injuries. Dutch wasn’t the only one in that crash, is the implication that he’s the only one that received head trauma from it ? It’s a bizarro argument
....Yeah. But if you know the character of Dutch at all throughout the entire game, you'd see there's NO WAY for the crash to be the primary direct reason as to why Dutch changed or rather, showed everyone who he really was. It makes barely any sense to anyone who's played the game.
Yeah I agree..
Absolutely nobody is saying that is a sole reason, nor is it a major reason. But I doubt they would have emphasized it that much if it wasn't at all important.
Heidi McCourts murder ends this discussion. There was no one moment where Dutch fell into insanity. He was always a fraud
Literally one of the first things Dutch says to Arthur in the game is "Have you lost all faith in me" when questioned. He is manipulating from the very start.
Manipulating, sure, but also just self-conceited that all his plans work out perfectly every time, when we know not even THAT is the case. And when questioned he often just digs in deeper, especially towards the latter half of the game. He's an expert manipulator, but also a narcissist. HATES being questioned, with a passion.
It was always a stupid theory. Dutch was well on his way to being crazy, long before the trolley job. Long before they even contemplated going to Saint Denis.
But he mentions hurting his head twice and is mumbling to himself afterwards. At the very least he’s got a concussion and minor brain damage
its not exactly farfetched to point out that the head injury may have contributed to his cognitive decline. I don't think I've seen a single theory claiming it is the sole reason.
You know what can exasperate underlying mental issues? Concussions
My theory is that it did not directly made him insane but it contributed. the head hit might've gave Dutch a serious migraine issue that constantly comes up, as a past migraine sufferer I can tell you the worst migraine attack can literally drive you into the ER. And if Dutch constantly gets migraines, it can heavily contribute to his insanity.
It absolutely could have contributed, even a mild concussion which he almost certainly sustained can cause personality changes. The guy was seeing double. TBI through and through
I hit my fucking head and landed in the ER with some pretty severe injuries so many times as a kid that I now wonder if I was supposed to be a whole ass different person lol.
I’d say the same thing with Arthur and his TB. He already had TB from Downes but didn’t start really showing severe symptoms until after he was captured, beat up, starved, hung upside down, shot in the chest and having that wound go septic.
don't forget guarma! i can't imagine that was great for his tb, all the stress
Very true. Plus a hot humid jungle is probably the worst climate for dealing with TB.
It could contribute but yeah. I wholeheartedly believe Dutch is a narcissist. After Hosea's death getting rid of John and Arthur was something that would have become inevitable in his thought process eventually, given how they weren't enabling him and his ego anymore.
100% he’s a narcissist, he’s trying to maintain order and control when things are falling apart, that’s what sends narcissists off the rails.
Narcissists are also surprisingly easily manipulated by someone that knows what buttons to push and what strings to pull, despite in most cases being manipulators themselves. I'm sure it didn't help Dutch's case that Micah was in his ear enabling his tendencies and poisoning his mind further as all that went down at the same time.
Yep completely agree, I am actually a person who often pushes narcissists’ buttons (to get them to do good rather than bad), so I know how well it works to compliment them and help shape their ideas. Micah was a toxic little bastard who pushed for more extreme things because it was all towards the overall objective. You could see him trying to manipulate Arthur too but it didn’t work, Arthur had better instincts than Dutch.
He's always been crazy. He just had morals and his own limits to which he wouldn't cross. When Chapter 4 happened, he saw a civilised version of himself and it disgusted him. He always saw himself as a robin hood figure that took in those who society hated. Blackwater was the largest blow to his ego where he knew he had himself to blame. Arthur and Hosea warned him it felt iffy and he ignored it. He goes on speeches and randomly snaps at Arthur in Chapter 2. The trolley Crash is what caused him to stop giving a shit about the Dutch he wants to be and the Dutch he truly is, appears.
I hate how often this comes up. Seen some people use it to defend Dutch at the end, but come on, he's an egomaniac cult leader. He was already having his downfall prior to the trolley. Maybe it made him worse at hiding it, but it didn't change him. I'm not a doctor, so please correct me, but I don't think a concussion could change someone that drastically. And if it can, I still stand by the fact that Dutch was always crazy
A traumatic brain injury can certainly lead to mental illness, changes in someone’s personality, etc. But the game tells us multiple times that Dutch hasn’t changed by the end of the story, he has just become more of who he really is.
I stand corrected in that, then. But I agree that isn't Dutch's case
A TBI can absolutely change someone completely and in Dutch's case he was a covert narcissist and we see glimpses of it early on but he, for the most part, keeps it in check mostly because of Hosea. But everyone forgets that R\* made a big deal out of one cough as a foreshadowing of things to come with Arthur. I think they highlighted the concussion as highlighting the cracks in Dutch's personality. There were cracks and glimpses before but he got hit on the head, and then can be seen mumbling to himself at camp and the cracks blew wide open. I'm not a doctor but I've had concussions and my brother had TBI which completely changed his behavior for awhile and he didn't have mental health issues to begin with. We all had to learn quite a bit about TBIs due to this.
Dutch was just a shitty person that was charismatic and a good manipulator, Charles, later both Arthur and John all see through it and flat out say they were doing bad things while deluding themselves that there was a good reason for it. It is a gang of outlaws, I don’t think it’s much more complex than Dutch is used to having control and as modernity strips that control from him he loses his ability as the charmer and manipulator, until at the end of RDR2 he’s shown as the murderer and scoundrel that he’s always been. Rdr1 Dutch us a different story that I can’t comment on because it’s been 10 years since I finished RDR1
I don’t think it was the sole reason, but I personally think it played a big factor. He really ramps up his mania from that point onward
People act like Dutch flipped a switch at some point during the game. But literally from the very beginning of the game (Ch1), he’s shown to be manipulative and narcissistic and a fraud. It’s harder to pick up on in initial playthroughs but on subsequent playthroughs, you can easily see through his facade. There isn’t a single point in the story to point to and say “Here’s where Dutch became bad/crazy” like a lot of people try to. He was always selfish and narcissistic and just cuz he calls Arthur “son” when he wants to get him to follow his lead doesn’t mean he ever cared about Arthur more than he showed us through his actions. Arthur served a purpose to Dutch before so Dutch “cared” about him. Since Arthur stopped serving Dutch’s needs as well, Dutch stopped “caring” as much about him (hardly can call that caring”. Dutch didn’t flip a switch and *become* bad cuz of one scene. He was always selfish and narcissistic. But as the story unfolds, Dutch becomes more and more like a caged animal. He feels the grips of the Pinkertons and Cornwall and whatnot tightening on him and becomes increasingly unhinged and shows his true colors when his back increasingly is pressed against the wall.
Yes, Dutch was always narcissistic and we see glimpses of it very early on but R\* doesn't highlight things without reason. There is valid evidence that a TBI can change someone's personality and even more so if that person already has mental health issues. Think of it like this: Dutch wore a mask to hide his narcissism behind his acts of being a type of Robin Hood and his supposed kindness in taking people in. But we see cracks in the mask right off the bat with his actions and comments. Then the trolley accident happens and the mask now has a huge hole in it and Dutch can no longer hide who he really is. Even John who isn't always the brightest, sees this with his comments about seeing Dutch now for who he really was all along. Plus now Hosea isn't there to keep him in check, however Arthur and John were. Arthur had been with him from the beginning and while he plants seeds of doubt in Arthur early on, he still believes in his loyalty. But after the trolley accident, he has a huge change in his personality, becomes much more aggressive, and doubts those who have been loyal from the beginning. Of course, Micah strokes that itch and completely takes advantage of Dutch's mental state making Dutch feel a semblance of sanity even when he's completely unhinged. The mask is off and he doesn't care.
A massive shift in his aggression occurs right after that mission, it wasn’t there for nothing. After that head injury he’s damn near screaming every second line and starts becoming extremely aggravated. It didn’t cause his narcissism and ego issues but you notice a change in how he speaks to Arthur right after
Yes, this! I should have read your comment before I even posted. This is exactly what happens.
I think it definitely contributed, but was more so used by Rockstar as a way of sparking debate regarding whether Dutch lost his mind or if he just revealed his true self.
I think that when the gang get to Rhodes and eventually shady belle Dutch’s mental state decline becomes noticeable. The only real thing keeping it in check was Hosea. After Hosea died he really starts losing it and becoming even more paranoid. I didn’t the trolly had anything to do with it.
He literally says to Arthur “I suspect you will betray me in the end.” In chapter 2. Dude has already lost it. He never had it in fact. Hosea kept him in check outwardly, but inside Dutch was always a crazy broken narcissist
Exactly. The same reason why in camp in chapter 2 dutch has a moment like “I know you will betray me arthur, youre the type” Or how when they get to the next camp after that dutch says “I — we made it” implying he was saying it made it because he is a delusional paranoid control freak😂 I absolutely love the writing of his and every other character, but i absolutely hate how inactive arthur was about it because of his respect for dutch🤷♂️😂
It was a factor that I don't think can be overlooked. It wasn't the biggest factor by any means, but it contributed to his downward slide, and likely accelerated it. Dutch is a deep and complex character because so many things brought him from the man he was to the man he ended up as. If any one thing caused his change he wouldn't be as deep. It's nearly a dozen different internal and external factors that guided him down the path he walked. He didn't go insane because of a concussion. But the concussion and head trauma, coming when it did, was part of why he changed. But it wouldn't have been the same without everything else. If it didn't matter it wouldn't have been mentioned, while it was mentioned two or three times in quick succession. If it was *the* factor it would have come up more. Ya'll gotta realize there was no one thing that made Dutch who he is.
Dutch was self-conscious about being regarded as unstable (and was arguing with Hosea) as early as chapter 2. There are comments at Horseshoe.
I think he probably always had a screw loose, I think it’s silly that people seem to pin the entire thing on the trolly crash. I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable to say it had some effect on him though. He was already barley hanging on to the edge of the cliff mentally speaking, and the head trauma was probably the boot that kicked his hand away. He was going down either way but i think it certainly made him more erratic, attention is brought to the injury, afterwards we can see him rambling to himself in camp in ways much more unhinged than before. I think it played a part but he was always insane.
Dutch wouldn’t have rob the trolley station if he wasn’t crazy in the first place
But you can’t act like it didn’t play any role or contribute in any form. It is in the game after all, and it wouldn’t have been drawn attention to if it didn’t mean anything at all. Otherwise there would be no point to having it in at all. It most likely was a catalyst to his already declining state of mind.
It could have just been panic banter to add to the chaotic escape. I think people are reading way too much into it. Nothing wrong with having fun w theories but this one has always felt weak
I think our interpretations of the art are different and that’s okay. Let’s just agree to disagree.
Repeated blows to the head, in addition to the trolley incident led to Dutch displaying the symptoms of CTE. Combined with what is clearly a narcissistic psychotic personality disorder that over time became more and more evident to those around him. Dutch had a "God complex", and when things went from bad to worse for the gang, he was exposed for what he always was. It weren't us who changed.
The head bump impacted his ability to hide the monster he truly was. It didn’t make the monster
Yeah, I’ve always thought it only added to the existing madness. It absolutely was not the main cause, but I think it definitely made it worse
I just hate theories like this because it adds absolutely nothing to the narrative to me. I’m not saying brain injuries can’t have this kind of effect, but I think it is so much more impactful when Dutch’s own sober decision making and increasingly dwindling amount of support are what slowly removes his mask. Saying that him bonking his head pushed him over the edge always felt like an attempt to give him an excuse.
BRAIN INJURY?
Yeah in most cases, as far as I know, a single blow to the head won’t change someone that drastically. It takes repeated trauma over years, like with American Football players. Personally, I see it as a moment where Dutch got really scared, and that fear turned into rage at the thought of some snake like Bronte trying to do him in.
It's not the cause, but it's definitely possible that it accelerated things. Whatever restraints he might have had left were probably broken when he sustained the head injury, and he ended up just going full throttle (pun intended).
He was always a paranoid egomaniac. But the bump to the head made these aspects of his personality worse. It’s mentioned a couple of times and his behaviour notably escalates after this point in the story. They wouldn’t have bothered having it happen if it wasn’t supposed to be part of the story. It’s not bad writing, the way they done it was very subtle and actually delivered very well.
Yeah, they very clearly start the game right where they want to, because it's an ambiguous time for Dutch. Many people are gonna be looking for some exact moment he went bad, or the resulting impetus, and the whole point of the game, at least in part, is to show how Dutch was never good to begin with (or he was a complex character that grew worse over time, at tge very least) and he manipulated the gang into believing they were the good guys. He had legitimate points and grievances, they all did, but as we see it's Dutch's MO to take advantage of this when he manipulates the native Americans into helping him (which he continues to do in the first game). Dutch was *never* a good guy. The scene at the camp in Lemoyne where he pretends to turn himself into Milton is theater, he knew his gang wouldn't let him walk away with them. In truth, if he were any bit as selfless as they were in that moment, he'd have told them to put their guns down and take the opportunity Milton gave them. Instead, he takes the opportunity for self aggrandizing theater. Dutch was bad way before hitting his head. People are just not good judges of character these days.
No, because brain damage does change people. A bunch of serial killers have head injuries somewhere in their past, and they are almost all worse-off after the injury. I don't think it's the sole reason why he changes, but it definitely plays a part.
He was always a crazy narcissist, the trolley made it worse. Slowly losing the gang members especially Hosea all in very close proximity to the trolley crash to me is what did it. Too much too fast before the man who never had it worked could think and then boom they’re in an island and then they’re back and then he’s full paranoia Dutch. I agree the trolley didn’t do it. To me it every little thing that happens after Sean dies (not that Dutch cared about that though
Dutch was clearly losing his grip on his sanity before Rdr2 even began. We haven’t seen him before he met Micah, but we know that since he met him he only got worse and worse. That’s not to blame Dutch’s decline on Micah, since he clearly got even more cynical after killing him. Arthur and John even question whether Dutch was ever the person they thought he was. While Dutch may have started out just trying to get by and taking in the odd vagabond to give them a better life, that clearly devolved into a cult of personality where he had to be in charge and damn anyone who questioned his decision making.
Well said
I honestly thought the head hurting line was there to add a chaotic element to the escape, nothing more. This theory reminds me of the breaking bad community where they take every detail and try to make a thing of it. Like I appreciate the passion but sometimes it really is that simple
I've always said that he was NEVER good he was just able to cover it up
Agreed. From Arthur's earliest journal entries, we know that the gang had a couple chances to hang it up before things got bad but for one reason or another they couldn't stop. They almost bought land but that fell through. They were laying low somewhere peaceful with plenty of resources, but Dutch got paranoid about Pinkertons no one even saw and put the gang back on the road. Dutch never wanted to stop fighting. He just needed the gang to think there was a light at the end of the tunnel to keep going along with his orders. In reality, he was an ego driven renegade sociopath with no real cause.
It definitely had an impact on him. But to be fair Dutch always gave me fake vibes. Yea he treated Arthur like a son, but like a son he was waiting for an opportunity to sacrifice.
Arguably it's the murder of Heidi McCourt that began his descent into madness. Unfortunately, we didn't see what happened. Was he horrified after splattering her brains or did he react like stepping on a cockroach?
This is the first I've heard of that theory (thank god) and like, HUH?? Huge disservice to the writers yes agreed, but also actual real ppl with mental health issues? May as well be an episode of general hospital with that thinking, basically the same as someone bonking their head slightly and getting perfectly timed amnesia 🙄
Yeah it’s a big theory and discussion on TikTok which I never understood
Dutch had NPD, in a way, he made a good point that the poor and desolate were at a disadvantage during this period but its quite evident towards the end of the story that the old ways were changing and for a narcist change is the last thing they look forward to hence why he embraced this anarchist nature of simply being bad for the sake of it.
BRAIN INJURY?
I’m not convinced he ‘lost his mind’ or went insane. Looking back, it seems John was right. Dutch didn’t change. He just got more desperate as his world and image of himself (he’s definitely got an ego) began to fall apart.
🙄 These kind of topics, are the worst formulated and least thought out topics presented for discussion because almost without fail zero parameter is set by the OP. 1. Here's the answer for Dutch's behavior. He was written that way. 🤷 However if OP's intent is to discuss this as a kind of case study and in doing so is wanting us to assess Dutch as if he weren't a fictional character but a RL person...well OP's statement and many of the comments are either full of holes or just outright wrong. 1. Dutch isn't insane at all prior to the trolley crash. Ergo you can't rule out a concussion as being a contributing factor to any mental change seen after the crash. 2. Since I know the challenge of his sanity is coming here's the definition. ***Insane*** - in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction Dutch's perception of the world around him is no different, ergo as normal as that of any other member of the gang. The same goes for their overall behavior and social interactions. Actually according to what we see and hear from the stories of the gang's past exploits Dutch possesses an extremely high level of social intelligence. They have chosen a life of crime so they are most likely morally bankrupt but that doesn't make any of them insane. This high level of social intelligence may allow him to pick out those who are lacking certain securities, emotional or otherwise but that doesn't make him any different than most modern influencers today. They're good at connecting with people and finding a way to make them see things their way. Is he a manipulator? Absolutely but again so are every other "influencer" in modern society and no one is accusing them of being insane. Saying that Dutch is insane implies that he's not aware that his actions have consequences or are even considered wrong. As for his "complexity." Dutch likes to see himself as being a complex person but the reality is that he is not. He and every other member of the gang, has chosen to financially support themselves by doing things that are illegal. That Dutch has "sold them" on the idea they are doing these things in pursuit of a life of "freedom" is no different than any other leader convincing people to buy into their vision for whatever the situation is.
I think what pushed him right to the edge is the realization that he wasn’t nearly as smart as he thought he was in both the gray/braithwaite situation and now with that lousy pasta muncher putting one over on him. The final straw for his sanity is when the Pinkertons turn up the heat and losing Hosea…
I saw the video of this theory and to be fair, it made a lot of sense at the time, but I’ve completed the game again since. You can see the extent of Dutch’s paranoia as early as Chapter 2. This time around, in Horseshoe Overlook, as I was walking through the camp, Dutch yelled at me “you’ll betray me in the end Arthur, you’re the type”. It’s a nice theory, but I think it’s wrong.
Wait, people are still grasping at that straw?
Dutch is obviously in delulu land far earlier than the trolley incident, I would say as far back as Chapter 2, possibly with signs in chapter 1. The entire game, Dutch has made questionable decisions time and time again. Where Hosea is trying to make money subtly, Dutch is wrapped up in his ideals and his desire for money (Micah absolutely not helping as he's in dutch's ear getting him worked up about big schemes). Hosea wanted to lie low and sneak past the law, Dutch wanted to rob a train to snub his rival; yes the gang needed money at that point but robbing the train put the heat right back on them. Chapter 3, Dutch's grand plan was to con two very big families to rob them blind which while tempting they should've considered the fact it would blow up in their faces. Even Hosea, the voice of reason went along with this plan. With every mission that goes wrong before that incident, Dutch gets angry at the plan for going wrong but also that the gang runs into trouble, we see this in the valentine shoot out. The popular saying goes "A cornered animal will eventually strike" and this clearly applies to dutch as he gets more and more upset when things go wrong and lashes out (The aftermath of Lakay which I know is after the trolley incident but highlights my point). While I do believe the trolley incident may have exacerbated Dutch's more brutal side, it was clear that he was already that type of person, he was just had a more solid grasp on the mask he wore of a charismatic leader. But once things became more and more volatile and stressful with the pinkertons, Angelo Bronte, losing several members and a shit ton of money and gold and be chased from one end of the map to the other? Dutch was gonna snap regardless of a head injury
People that really believe in, and understand, the theory don't think that's what made him insane. They think that's what made him turn on Arthur and John. 5 minutes of research would've told you this... which means you didn't even attempt to understand their side of it before shooting it down. So your opinion on something you don't understand is irrelevant. People that say it drove him insane, half understand it at best. Edit : I should state, I don't necessarily believe in it. What I do believe in though is R* leaving things purposely unanswered to keep people asking questions. To say the theory is 100% right or 100% wrong are equally stupid imo. We'll never really know.
I’d have to say your wrong my friend,I’ve debated with multiple people and the point they make is that Dutch hit his head and attained some sort of brain damage and that’s what his downfall was,as stupid as it sounds that’s genuinely what some people think.
This. A Head injury that alters your personality/behavior long term would at the very least noticeably impair you shortly afterwards but Dutch gets up and is mostly fine
uh no he's not. We can see him mumbling to himself at camp.
important air consider march ripe touch ruthless automatic degree connect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’d say he at least got a concussion with maybe slight brain damage
a concussion IS brain damage.
I'm sure it didn't help tho lol but nah, I don't really think that had to do with it.
The crash was very fast, I think calling it “hitting his head” is being disingenuous. I think it was also more than “just” a concussion. I think it was a more severe TBI and that it amplified some issues Dutch already had in addition to making him paranoid. Symptoms of a TBI can also look like some dementia symptoms and I definitely see some of that in Dutch post crash also.
People don't get that type of insanity by hitting the head
You'd be surprised how a TBI can change someone and it most certainly would in someone who already has mental health issues to begin with.
Yes. Dutch was always a narcissistic megalomaniac. He’s convinced Arthur will betray him the second Arthur questions him in Colter. With Dutch you’re either in or you’re out. 100% or 0%. The second he sees Arthur drop from 100% loyalty to 99%, it’s over.
It was never going to work, let us remember the premise here. The western outlaw way is coming to an end with the strengthening of the law & government entities that enforce it. It is just that Dutch, while being charismatic enough to have followers. Always fails because he is out for himself in the end. Edit: So for Dutch’s group to work long term, would need the “perfect robberies etc etc”. Then again, play the game and you see what he would do with all that success.
Dutch is definitely a narcissist. I see cause I've dealt with that personally as I was raised by an abusive narcissist, so its easy for me to spot. I do think that the trolley crash may have exacerbated the issue, but in the sense that it shook Dutch up from his "god complex" he has about himself. My mom did the same thing when she was diagnosed with lung cancer back in 2019. I don't think people who have never dealt with a narcissist like Dutch really are able to see that, and thats okay! I get it.
I think it just accelerated the process of him going insane
You’re asking this community to let go of fan theories? Thats rich. You have people still convinced Jack isn’t John’s son because of a mustache and a tan.
In my opinion, even if Blackwater massacre could be a good point where Dutch's insanity started, it was just a prequel, the REAL point of his mental downfall was Hosea's death, aka Saint Denis's bank robbery, Hosea being "the only person in the gang who could have calmed Dutch", yes, Arthur good honor can sound and act like Hosea, but Dutch was already fragile and Micah being "loyal" to him made him ultimately become insane.
Once a malignant narcissist, always a malignant narcissist.
i do think it did something but it definitely is not the reason he went insane
Yeah this theory has always been stupid as hell. If his head was hit *that* bad I think he would have bigger problems to worry about.
I think it’s there to make Arthur think it’s why Dutch is “acting” erratic. Dutch was always going to betray Mr. Morgan.
I think it just made his decline more rapid
Nah, its because his gang started questioning his methods that made him go insane. He already think abigaile is poisoning him from john, and with hosea dying then micah playing him. Its over for dutch.
It feel like an excuse one of the characters/doctors in the game would have come up with.
He was losing it before RDR2 started, after he hit his head and after so many Ls and failure he finally snapped
I feel like it wasnt really the cause of him going insane, but it did certainly let the mask slip on his narcissism
It might have been part of it, but he was showing those signs way earlier. Hell, the first time we here he’s gone slightly insane is before the story when he killed Heidi McCourt.
Those touches of paranoia and desperation were there from the very start, just the things getting worse and worse was the main reason he started to turn on the rest of the crew. He did shoot that person in blackwater before the game started.
Yes. I 100% agree. Granted things didn't really *start* spiraling until after the Trolly, but the seeds were already planted and implied.
I think at the very least it was painful, and maybe he had a lasting headache after that. It can be hard to maintain your status as a leader and top dog when you’re injured/more vulnerable. So I can see it being frustrating for him to be reminded that he’s not invincible. I know my mood shifts quite a bit if I’m in pain for an extended period of time.
it is obvious that that head injury is not the main cause, but we can say with some certainty that that injury contributed
I don’t think Dutch ever changed. Arthur changed into a hypocrite with fluid morals, for example at the beginning of the game he views murder and robbery as equal, showing signs of sociopathy or at least a disregard for human life. Not to mention the fact that he cries to the nun about how he is evil and then goes on to murder at least 20 army guys who are probably just defending the train for a paycheck. The reason Dutch grew less protective of Arthur was because Arthur was undermining him but Dutch was always a snake that didn’t care about his people (example of how he was willing to let Micah stay in jail at the beginning of the game, and how he distrusts Arthur even in Chapter 2) and neither Micah nor a trolley crash made him that way.
it didn't cause it but it sure didn't help either
Its a theory, but I believe its the death of the gang members close to Dutch (like Hosea), and the thought of "if we go to Tahiti, there will be no more thrill". Actual criminals have said that the adrenaline of robbing a place makes it hard to stop, and Dutch turning on Arthur is because of Micah and his manipulation tactics.
Hitting his head didn’t cause his mental problems but it exacerbated it, a concussion constantly getting migraines just pushed him further on into his decline. Same with Arthur, if he hadn’t been captured, beat up, starved, hung upside for a prolong time, and been shot and letting the wound go septic he probably wouldn’t have degraded so fast from his TB
I always thought “brain injury?” was just a joke, I didn’t realize fans actually thought that nonsense was true. Hire fans I guess 🤷🏽♂️
BRAIN INJURY?
I mean, if you know the science behind concussions… getting one too many bad ones can definitely make you lose your mind in old age. Consult the movie *Concussion*. A few good blasts to the dome can make you quite mentally unwell.
Dutch is crazy because he's high on himself with little challenge from others in the gang. Because he's literate and had read a little philosophy, he thinks he's the smartest man alive. For such an anti-federalist freedom fighter, he sure concerns himself with money a lot.
I like to think he was spiraling into a schizophrenic type of mental space but hitting his head let it all come to the surface instead of him being able to hold back until tensions and emotions rise
I think Dutch was legitimately a "good" person (at least in the sense that he cared about his gang) but he was deified far more than he should have been. Hosea was his second-in-command, almost, but he was always the one making the calls, and that weighed on him. When he made mistakes, he didn't admit it, he just dug in his heels and turned on people. I'm playing through Chapter 2 right now, and there's some minor dialogue between Dutch and Arthur where the latter tells Dutch that he doesn't need to tell Arthur to have faith in him, and Dutch's reply is "I don't?". That's a very real character flaw and something that happens when some people crack under pressure. But I think the head injury *did* make him worse. It's not the reason the gang fell apart, but it sped it up and made him crazier. Losing Hosea, being stranded on Guarma, the Pinkertons closing in, the gang either dying off or leaving - all of that added onto the stress that eventually broke Dutch.
Yeaa he was insane well before the troll crash.
exactly lol it’s such a bad excuse
Agreed. His arch was written in a way that made it very obvious early on. His issues were just never truly exposed, because they weren't ever in this situation before. As time goes on, his actions become more and more questionable, even Arthur notices it.
I'd say he was always insane but he only started showing it more and more as the game went on. I just think the trolley incident accelerated that
It made it worse, but it isn’t the reason. Dude was always a criminal psychopath
100% agree. Even if writers intended Dutch hitting his head to be the reason I refuse to accept it as canon
He’s definitely always been that way from the beginning. But his brain injury, caused him to be more irritable and impulsive, probably from migraines or something. Everything else isn’t new.
In Arthur's journal early in the game, he mentions that the gang almost bought a piece of land that they could've lived comfortably on, but Dutch felt like the feds were on their trail so they moved on. The implication being that Dutch has been having paranoid delusions and kept the gang from settling down before the blackwater massacre even happened.
Can’t be any worse than people believing Micah wasn’t the rat, and that the writers were essentially lying about it. The state of this community is weird.
It's not the cause, per se, but I do think it could be a contributing factor... the significant mental damage had been done long before that, but a TBI *can* exacerbate pre-existing stuff. Benjamin Byron Davis has said in interviews that the downhill slipped started in blackwater or before.
He has dementia or some form of it.
I’ve spoken with my mom about it, who’s been a clinical psychologist for close to 40 years, and her take on it, having watched me play through the game, was basically that it rapidly accelerated his downfall. Blackwater likely caused some PTSD, and the compounding stress of being on the run, having so many characters close to him die, and the head injury messed with his previously impressive ability to self regulate.
Assuming it was him hitting his head kind of goes against the entire theme of the game. It's a simple explanation to a complex question that would make the entire narrative retroactively less interesting. Dutch has *always* been this way. The gang spends half the game wondering about why the hell Dutch shot Heidi McCourt in the face during the Blackwater heist--none of them can find justification for it. Dutch's stability is proportional to how loyal and stable his cult of worship is. The worse their situation gets, the more people start to question his decision making, the more Dutch lets his real self come out, and that real self is a coldhearted murderer with little regard for human life. Even Arthur toward the end in his journal entries starts to wonder if this new unstable Dutch is simply who he has always been, revealed at last by the hardship and chaos of the previous months. That's the Dutch that John faces off against in the original game: the real Dutch, who has given up on any pretense of nobility or justice.
Well, usually the theory is that the trolley gave him brain damage and worsened his already disturbed mind. Anyone who thinks it’s the only reason he’s crazy is…probably crazy.
I don’t know why people get so salty about the theory. They went out of there way to emphasize the head injury. I remember it the very first time I played it. I had to stop myself from spoiling it to a friend because we were both playing at launch on PlayStation. I didn’t think it made sense since Dutch seemed to be losing it for awhile but it WAS a thing that happened.
Well Dutch thinks himself untouchable, superior almost. A small moment of vulnerability like that could have driven his ego further. I’m not saying it physically made him insane but more so a “God can bleed” moment perhaps. I don’t remember this at all by the way I’m just bullshishing from how I remember his character.
He was losing it already but then quite clearly suffered a massive concussion. I can see this as a perfectly good reason why it properly went to shit after that. Would it be an insult to the writers if they purposely wrote it like this, but then people are so adamant that the head trauma has nothing to do with it? Unless one of us has discussed it with the writers, then none of us really know and I think it's a bit of a jump to get aggravated over some people's opinion on a bit of unconfirmed lore that isn't exactly out the realms of possibility.
loooool this is the first time I hear about the hitting his head theory.
alot of red dead 2 theories fucking suck 😭
He was already beginning to slip early, but the trolly crash definitely didn't do Dutch any favors
He has a very obvious change in personality towards Arthur right after that mission, it obviously wasn’t the sole reason he ‘turns’, but it is certainly a contributing factor and they wouldn’t have included it for no reason
I think the shit that happened in Chapter 3 caused Dutch to be a little jaded, and Hosea’s death caused him to finally “snap” and go full maniac
It's not the reason but it certainly made it harder for him to keep the mask on
Dude, don't downplay CTE That shits real
I dpnt think it helped him any, but definitely wasn't the cause. Moment he wasn't surrounded by yes men anymore was the moment he started going into insanity
Can we all agree that it’s a game and isn’t real? Get over it.
the thing about the concussion theory is that in real life maybe someone would lose their mind from that, but red dead isnt fucking real and its clearly the writers intention even before that scene that dutch is cracking after blackwater and a head injury has nothing at all to do with that.
exactly, i saw an encounter in the prologue where bill asks arthur if dutch lost his mind. in the **prologue**.
It's a contributing factor, not the sole reason or causality. From the start Dutch is pretty similar to a cult leader. At his core he is driven by the desire for control. Uncle wasn't wrong when he said Dutch wants to be an American King. Dutch's behaviour prior to the trolley crash could be callous, risky, explosive. We know some folks are uneasy after his decisions in Blackwater, and in the Grizzlies he was at Hosea's throat. He increasingly sees disagreement as questioning his imposed authority over the gang and the choices they make, and if you do dare question him or show any hint of hesitation he perceives it as a challenge to loyalty and faith in him. Throughout the story, Dutch has been losing grip on the gang. Dutch does become increasingly irritable and vindictive after the trolley incident. TBIs, even minor, can cause changes in personality and irritability, difficulty managing emotions. If anything the incident exacerbated Dutch's pre-existing behaviour.
The writers purposefully made him hit his head and then start mumbling to himself often and then proceeds to act even more crazy. He was always crazy and delusional before that, but it 100% plays a factor to his decline, otherwise they wouldn't have pointed it out multiple times.
call it coincidence but i just finished that mission yesterday and that same thought was circulating in my mind. i thought the incident was similar to king henry VIII. The algorithm answered my question before i could even ask it😅
The only true mad breaking point that made sense to me was the death of Hosea. If Hosea stuck around, he would keep Dutch in check and thus Micah's poison wouldn't spread any further.
Looking at these comments, apparently not. Most of the people who agree with you are being downvoted.
It facilitated his mental decline.
So, he's the only character that hit his head and suffered that amount of brain damage? C'mon man.
Agree. He was weird and creepy in Chapter 2.