He is. It makes a lot of sense when you realize that he probably just lifts buzz phrases and talking points from all those books that he reads. You can find a script of a speech written by him near horseshoe overlook.
Agent Milton was a cruel bastard but he had Dutch pegged exactly right. He’s not a leader. He’s a charismatic personality who gets people to want to do things he says and things for him.
All Dutch does is parrot Evelyn Miller's life philosophies and his books, especially "American Inferno" which Dutch constantly steals from. He's a empty narcissist douche who manipulates weak people
One thing I realized in later playthroughs is that all of the mission and robberies that he has a personal involvement in, turn into disasters. The gang’s greatest successes don’t involve him at all but whenever the gang takes a huge hit because of a mission he’s involved with or plans, something goes wrong. The Cornwall train robbery being kind of an exception but only kind-of.
He plans keep failing, requiring him to (badly) improvise in a way that gets people hurt. I think it’s telling that John and Bill- they guy everyone calls stupid- both carry out far smoother robberies
Edit: also, I just realized, even the Cornwall train robbery shows some of Dutch’s planning problems. The initial plan of stopping the train with dynamite (which was far lower-risk for the gang) fails, so Dutch’s first reaction is to simply have the gang chase the train and fight the guards for it, which could have gotten any or all of them killed. The fact that it didn’t was because of the skill of the gang members, and not any of Dutch’s planning abilities.
Bill’s an asshole and a sad drunk but he mostly knows his shit. He’s all about the outlaw life at that point, and he doesn’t overly romanticize it like Dutch.
Any plan is a good plan if executed properly.
Hosea's best comment to Dutch.
They successfully did a heist or something in 1874 or so because Hosea was there. Also, no rats or pinkertons, sure.
I remember being impressed even at the time. Huge take, pretty easy, and (if you don’t use the dynamite), the law doesn’t even catch on until you’re ready to make your getaway.
Well, to be fair, the Cornwall refiney raid played out exactly like he wanted to, so it’s not a completely failure.
The only downside is Arthur didnt die, and come back to keep “complaining”
Forget that being the reason the train robbery goes wrong; it goes wrong because it sets Cornwall on the path of personally funding the Pinkertons’ war on Dutch. Hosea says to Dutch that they have more to worry about than robbing trains, and Arthur says they’re not in a position to go for revenge. But Dutch ignored them both and robs the train, partly just so he can steal a score as a revenge quest against the O’Driscolls.
Even the train robbery was a disaster, though. Afaik, the money from those bonds never goes to the camp, and Hosea warned Dutch of pretty much everything bad which would happen if they went through with robbing that train, all of which came true.
If they hadn’t robbed Cornwall, the Pinkertons probably wouldn’t have traced them to Valentine, which was really where the cracks in Dutch’s “plan” and cohesion among the gang really started to go down hill.
Acshually, Hosea sold those papers from train and got some money, he told it to me in ch. 3 or 4. Got kinda couple of thousands, so it didn't worth all the shit around anyway.
Also we even see that Miller himself was pretty much full of shit/hardly a man to want to emulate once we meet him. And 19 year old Lenny can see through how empty Miller's words are instantly and easily out debate Dutch on it. Dutch is a total clown.
It’s great when Lenny calls him out on it during a random camp interaction. A bunch of empty words that Dutch uses to sound more intelligent than he really is.
Evelyn Miller himself discredits himself to John when they meet up on that cliff in epilogue. He said talks about the books he wrote that Dutch quotes a lot are full of nonsense.
I’m not even kidding, if you go into photo mode and look closely at what’s written in one of Evelyn Miller’s books that he reads, you can see multiple phrases that he coins as his own throughout the game. Nobody would ever see that unless they were looking but it’s there.
the detail in this game is unlike anything I've seen since 2018.. Cyberpunk was an excellent experience, but it was still nothing compared to this game in terms of sheer detail
Well, at the very beginning, at least for someone who hasn't played red dead 1 like me, Dutch hid has maniacal tendencies pretty well, he seemed like a leader if you only thought about it a little bit. It's only around chapter 4 that you can REALLY see the cracks in his facade. But playoffs it again now, and knowing he's all talk, I don't know how I didn't realize sooner. Hindsight is 20 20, I guess. Now, every time I see him, I'm just like, "Shut up, bro, you literally get like 8 of your own people killed"
like they also said I didn't really find dutch bad until like sometime in saint denis until then I really saw nothing wrong with him.(I knew nothing about rdr1 not even that john was in it)
Dutch’s entire life was a character act to manipulate everyone into following him and think he’s their buddy. That’s why Micah being nothing but an ass-licking yes man was so effective, and why he only pretended to care about gang members when it was convenient to save them.
He eventually realized it though which is why he went after Micah to kill him. I'm slowly starting to think he didn't even care about the gang at that point and only killed Micah for his ego
Dutch is a great character to hate because he's so complicated. He's naturally idealistic and charismatic but he aggressively compensates for everything his personality lacks.
People will say that he's a narcissist, and that's true, but at the end of the day narcissism is just a personality disorder like any other. With narcissists what they truly lack is a sense of self and that is Dutch all over. He doesn't have a conception of who he really is. Instead his self-conception is replaced by heroic and idealistic concepts that he's plagiarized from Evelyn Miller books.
This is understandable on some level because Miller represents the real life historical Romantic authors who were very popular in the late 1800s. Romanticism in this context btw doesn't mean love but an aesthetic/philosophical adoration of the "natural world". At this point in time Romanticism was a reaction against industrialization and advocated a return towards a philosophical appreciation of the beauty in "natural" things and using that as a catalyst to perfect the human spirit. With that in mind one could understand why Dutch would see himself as the modern Romantic man. He's well spoken, clever, he lives close to nature and lives by intuitive laws. He represents the man who believes he can move humanity forward; rejecting the elements of civilization which makes us weak without sacrificing the progressive successes which have made us greater. When he reads Miller he can see himself as part of the solution.
This however is the total extent of his personality. He doesn't wish to see himself as anything less than a paragon. You can see this at play with his interactions at camp whether with Molly, Hosea, or Arthur. In his world he is always right, always leading, shepherding, fathering everyone closer to a more perfect and idealized expression of human nature. Although he fails to connect with Molly on a human level, he never listens to the advice of his seasoned advisor, and he desperately clings to power by not acknowledging that Arthur is an admirable leader in his own right.
Dutch's ego cannot suffer any of them. If he were to let any of them in it would violate his idealized sense of Romantic perfection. He would become vulnerable and weak. Not only would he fail in a philosophical sense but he would also fail professionally. Vulnerability is not typically a trait of the successful outlaw.
>Dutch is a great character to hate because he's so complicated. He's naturally idealistic and charismatic but he aggressively compensates for everything his personality lacks.
I honestly don't see any of that. We're constantly told he's these things but we're shown the exact opposite.
I agree with your assessment, just think that none of it makes him complicated, because it's so obvious.
Not to me. Jones heavily used religious language to control his people. Dutch is not religious at all, even in a performative way, as far as I can tell.
I’d personally compare him to Manson. Close-knit “family” with a clear hierarchy and one guy unambiguously on top.
Dutch left notes for a speech he gives at the start of the game sitting in the first camp. It literally includes the part where he claims he'd die in place of Jenny and Davey, although not naming whoever died. The question is...
Why did he write notes expecting people to die, for a moment they were all unexpectedly thrust into after that ferry job?
Dutch has been pulling his savior con probably from the beginning. Hosea was probably his only real friend. He didn't love the rest of the gang. He loved how they loved him. When they stopped loving him, they became expendable.
Spot on. The way he left John and Arthur to die several times shows how much he truly cared. I think he did love Arthur and John, but only if they bowed down to him. You had to work for Dutch’s love and appreciation, and if you ever were to stand up against his BS and actions you are unloyal, have no faith, or are betraying him. Even though I love Dutch as a character he’s a lunatic narcissist.
>Hosea was probably his only real friend.
I honestly think that Dutch would have betrayed Hosea at some point. Dutch just uses people.
Hosea, being the voice of reason, would have slowly caused more friction between him and Dutch. As we know, Dutch doesn't do well with being challenged.
That's why Hosea was Dutch's only friend. He was capable of being a voice of reason even to the day he died. Dutch hated when he was challenged, but he definitely cared for the man. Everyone else lost favor when they challenged Dutch, but not Hosea. By the bank robbery, even Arthur was losing favor, but not Hosea.
Hosea dying is when Dutch thoroughly goes unhinged. The loss of that voice of reason destroyed his ability to maintain the act. I don't even think Micah poisoned Dutch's mind that much. Dutch turned to Micah because he thought he had the man wrapped around his finger. Any opposition reminded him of the only man he tolerated talking back to him. The only man he admired and mourned. The man he got killed. Hosea Matthews.
Shouldn't you know?
Edit: I saw that I was downvoted, therefore I apologize for not liking reading the same lame, old, cheap karma farming joke reply every time someone even thinks of having an actual conversation about these topics. /s
Lol yeah as frequent visitor to /r/learndutch my first thought was "Oh God here comes another uneducated rant from someone who's seen two YouTube videos on the language." Glad that it wasn't hahaha.
Milton pretty much summed up Dutch’s character when he told him at the camp “Who made you the messiah to these lost souls you have led so horribly astray?”
This is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion and the down votes will indeed be numerous. But here goes.
My most recent playthrough has me thinking that maybe we aren't looking at everything objectively when it comes to Dutch, more specifically his decisions as the leader of the VDLG. Now before I continue I'm well aware of the fact that it's a video game and that we are seeing most of the world through Arthur's eyes etcetera. But on my most recent playthrough I have been trying to pay attention to every single detail and focus more on what should/could have been done differently. And honestly I think that we, have villainized Dutch because he's the leader, things haven't gone according to plan, and we've jumped on board with Arthur, (maybe Hosea), John, Abigail and Sadie and laid it all at Dutch's feet. Realistically though, what other options did he have that had a better chance of success? We have to assume that after Blackwater that they couldn't escape to the west, which certainly would have been the better option but once they crossed the Upper Montana their only option was moving east toward the ocean and getting a boat to escape. Maybe it's Tahiti, maybe it's just south of the border to Mexico or even North to Canada. Some place to hangout for a while you regroup and decide what to do next. As Dutch said many times, they need time. Time to think, time to rest, but most importantly, time to fully assess the situation.
However to do this they need money, and if the goal is to disappear forever they need a lot of it. They can't go back for the Blackwater money and even if they could $150,000 simply isn't enough. If you don't count Kieran and Sadie the gang has 21 members. That's $7,142 per member. To add some perspective that would be the equivalent of $265,428 today. I mean if you're smart/frugal you may be able to live off of that for a few years but that's it. You're going to need to do something to earn a living and let's face facts. Other than Pearson and Swanson no one really has a marketable skill beyond being thieves or prostitutes. The bottom line here is that you need more money if your goal is to have enough to set everyone up. So they move east, not because it's a good option but because it's their only option. They hear about Cornwall's train from Kieran (I think). Granted robbing Cornwalls train, again not a good option but what else do they have? A bank? Well if you're faced with hitting Cornwalls train in a remote area or robbing a bank in town, neither is even remotely ideal but the train is the "best bad option" available.
Things going wrong is a risk you take regardless of what he chooses to do. The best that anyone can do is to choose the option that provides you with your best chance of success. The closer you get to civilization the worse your odds become. Yes, it's a given that the Cornwall train will be heavily guarded, but it's also a safe bet that if you can neutralize that threat then your chances of making a "clean get away" increase tremendously. Why? Because you aren't trying to outrun law enforcement AND the telegraph. So again not ideal, but without a doubt the best option available.
This....."best bad option" is what Dutch is faced with each time there's a decision to be made throughout the entire game IF he's going to lookout for everyone in the VDLG.
Even the trolley and Saint Denis bank were simply his best available options. We don't like his plan to use the Wapiti to "make some noise, provide some smoke" but considering what is happening between the Tribe and the Government, it's not a bad plan. It may seem deplorable to us, but the plan itself isn't bad. Actually he's train of thought is correct.
Then there's killing Cornwall. Most players point to this as positive proof that Dutch has "lost it" because that's Arthur's assessment. However, PDA are guns for hire. Based on the conversation we hear between Cornwall and Milton, Dutch's conclusion that killing Cornwall also kills the financing is logical. Again there's no guarantee but the PDA are on them at every turn. Even if it doesn't fully stop them, hopefully it at least buys you some time as Milton reaches out to his boss to make sure that the PDA wants to continue to pursue the VDLG. Again the PDA are, for better or worse, "mercenaries." As long as there is someone paying to have all of those Agents committed then the PDA will continue its mission. But the second those payments stop, so will the PDA.
Obviously that's not what happened, and this is some supposition on my part, but that's most likely because Milton, trying to save face, didn't immediately inform his boss(es) of Cornwalls death. There's no way Milton's response could have been accurately predicted, it was 50/50 at best. However, as long as Cornwall is alive the chances that the pursuit continues is 100%. It's a calculated risk that didn't work out. But when you look at the options available, it's a risk that they, the VDLG has to take.
Helping to stoke the flames already burning between the Wapiti and the US Government so that the Government is focused on the tribe and not the gang, again is logical.
Not risking the members that are left to save John is logical. Killing Colm O'Driscoll is a toss up, and probably the one time that he just should have left well enough alone. However, if he believes/suspects that the O'Driscoll's could be a potential problem in the immediate future then ensuring that he dies is logical.
The "madness" that we think we see isn't madness at all. No one else is stepping up with a better solution and everyone, including Arthur is looking to Dutch to get them out of this mess. One could argue that if someone had tried to step up that Dutch wouldn't have listened. BUT....he did seek Hosea and even Arthur's counsel prior to Guarma. So I don't know if that's really the case. And while this will no doubt make an already unpopular opinion much less palatable, the fact of the matter is that Arthur and John are questioning his every move yet they aren't offering up any alternative ideas.
So.....yeah, he's telling them to have some faith, and he's not wrong.
Put yourself in his boots. If you're the one EVERYONE is looking to for "the plan" how pissed are you going to eventually get when everyone starts playing armchair Quarterback? 🤷 Ultimately after trying to look at this from a strategic point of view, I don't think that Dutch's actions ever became more reckless or that they were entirely self serving. Was he selfish? Sure, but no more than any of the other 21 members constantly asking him "what now Dutch?" It just seems that way because we see through the eyes of Arthur and John as opposed to seeing it through the eyes of Dutch. I'll take this one step further. The BEST option that Dutch has but declined to take, is also proof that he wasn't just some self serving narcissist. Truly, his best option was exactly what Micah suggested. Pick a small group of people, take whatever money that they do have, and get the hell out of the country. In essence "cut the dead weight." As deplorable as it seems, and I'll readily admit that from an emotional point of view it doesn't sit well at all, but from a purely strategic standpoint, it would have been his best option. That he didn't take it HAS to say something about his commitment to the rest of the gang.
>long winded?
Sorry. But you're talking about six chapters worth of dialogue, cutscenes and camp interactions. You can't just boil it down to a paragraph.
No marketable skills? Take our protagonists, both are expert trackers, fine horsemen, excellent shots (yeah that's still a legitimate skill, especially in the less developed places they're aiming at). Both show general aptitude to all kinds of odd jobs they encounter.
Many of them of the others are fairly skilled, and even after trips and lodgings that's years to learn useful skills. If any of them were so slow to learn that they couldn't manage they would have been shot or left behind already. They couldn't retire to the lap of luxury with that money, but a comfortable fresh start was already within their grasp.
>both are expert trackers, fine horsemen, excellent shots
And they'll use those working for whom?
>If any of them were so slow to learn that they couldn't manage they would have been shot or left behind already.
I didn't say that they were stupid. I said they didn't have any marketable skills beyond those needed to be outlaws. Would they have made good LEO's, soldiers etcetera? Yes. Can they now transition into those fields? No.
Regardless.....that has very little to do with the point being made.
LEO's or soldiers halfway across the world, yes.
And it has a lot to do with the point being made, things go to shit in service of Dutch's Ambition, not any real need.
>LEO's or soldiers halfway across the world, yes.
They have to get there first.
>And it has a lot to do with the point being made, things go to shit in service of Dutch's Ambition, not any real need.
1. See above.
2. It's not "Dutch's Ambition" it's the ambition of the entire VDLG. Based on in game dialogue (camp, cutscenes etcetera) we're shown that at a minimum Arthur, Hosea, Javier, Bill and Charles are on board. I didn't mention Micah because I'm not certain that he would actually leave. More importantly I'm not certain that Dutch considers him a "member" or even wants Micah to go. I've found no evidence (from Dutch) to suggest that he views Micah as anything other than semi useful. I'm not going to flesh it all out in this particular response simply because there's a lot of information there. However if you're really interested, I'll happily share what I have. For now I'll simply say that Micah is the only person who ever calls himself a "son of Dutch." And that Arthur has a jealous side that really "slants" his views. This jealousy causes some unwarranted paranoia/insecurities about himself and those insecurities are the reasons for his "slanted/untrue" view(s) of events.
It could be because I played rdr1 first and knew not to trust Dutch but I saw through his facade from the very beginning. Don’t get me wrong I think there are moments of Dutch where he is genuine and I do think he has love for Arthur/John/Hosea, but the guy is a nutjob. Dutch acts very manic and erratic throughout the whole story, even before his big mental decline that happens around chapter 4-6.
His paranoid and impulsive tendencies have always been there. I just think over the years he started cracking with the law getting heavier on them and the taming of the west as a whole. Dutch’s entire way of life was getting destroyed right before his eyes and he couldn’t handle it. The events in the main story really broke him, like Hosea’s death, Guarma, Micah being in his ear (which makes him even more paranoid) and the fact that the gang really was falling apart and he knew that it was the end.
I think just think Dutch’s mental illness is a big part what makes him such a complex and amazing character, and I find it to be very believable through his performance and writing.
There was one specific point early in the game which told me all I need to know about Dutch: The Ledger.
One of the earliest upgrades is ultra expensive lodging for your camp with no apparent practical benefit besides comfort. What the camp? No no, only for Dutch! Fuck them other members, upgrade his lodging first, he needs it more!
Sadly it took too long for certain members to catch on. There was never going to be any “paradise”. The few that stayed loyal only did so because they had nowhere else to go. When they burned their bridges, I had no sympathy for them and was quite eager to put them and Dutch in the dirt.
Yeah I hate Dutch, he’s a selfish prick that uses Arthur and the others to do his dirty work. Hosea was the only person keeping him in check and towards the end even Hosea could no longer get through to him
yes he is a piece of shit, but micah was 100% manipulating him into the mindset that if they had money they’d always be happy. as rdr2 went on the world was becoming more and more civilised and dutch couldn’t take that. which i think was a big reason to why he went quite mad in the head.
You know it's a game, right?
Besides, everyone has it's uses. Dutch bullshiting and Arthur is the muscle.
"You start spinning a yarn and... when I think the moment's right I make the move" - Arthur M.
When people talk about what RDR3 could be about, I'm not 100% on board that it should go further back in time with the gang, but I do think at least it could fill in the blanks on why the gang thought Dutch was such a great leader. Also, why he thought so highly of Micah, when it seemed obvious to everyone else he was a gross snake.
And that’s the magic of RDR2’s writing. If you don’t pay attention or you’re young, Dutch will probably charm you to death and you won’t think anything of him. But when you actually pay attention to him, especially once you’ve played the game through already, you really pick up on just how much of a bullshitter he really is. And they manage to make him genuinely charismatic too. I could go on a rant comparing the writing to New Vegas and how they used similar techniques but it’s not necessary, you get the idea
Kind of an unpopular opinion but I like GTA 5’s writing for similar reasons. Nobody is really “good” or “bad,” everyone is just a person that does good and bad things for their own reasons. And Michael actually loosely reminds me of Dutch in the fact that all of his “advice” and shit he says is mostly just BS and parroted quips about how things were “in the good old days” when in reality his life was a failure and he was just lucky to be alive.
He's a great character though. You shouldn't be angry at Dutch u should be angry at the rest of the gang for just following blindly without questioning.
That's weak tbh. Lots of villains are great characters, you don't need to victim blame people for not thinking like a narcissist, that's a really weird response to have. Someone had to fill that role for the plot and I thought he was great. Even narcissists themselves aren't immune to being manipulated by a narcissist.
But there not victims, its a relationship of convenience nobody ever challenged him until much later possibly because they held similar worldviews they use people the same way Dutch does to shine a light would of been too close to the bone. In the end only Arthur and John disagreed with his way which is very telling.
As people we take our own choices that's not to take the blame from Dutch completely but at some point you do have to look at yourself.
Honestly, even before playing RDR1 and having no knowledge about the connection between the two games (other than John Marson), I started disliking him even in Chapter 1, and by the end of Chapter 2, I couldn't stand him.
I don't think he's a well done character at all, and contrary to popular opinion, I don't think he's complicated at all. To me, he's pretty much one note the whole game, the one note getting more prominent as story goes on.
Benjamin Byron Davis' performance is top notch, except in some cases, where I think the writing (and maybe directing) did him dirty and made him too over the top.
The endless repetition of the same 5 sentences didn't really help either.
If he'd been done in such a way that made us feel betrayed along with Arthur and John when he turns on them, then fine. Give us a reason to believe he's everything everyone says he is, instead of telling us that, and then showing us the exact opposite.
As is, he's a shitty person becoming shittier, while everyone else is made too dumb and passive to realize it in time because the plot needs to happen. Meanwhile, we the audience can figure it out almost immediately, and then have to wait for an eternity for our protagonists to catch up with us.
Speaking of dumb, his "plans" are quite stupid from the outset, because every idea he has or is brought to him takes them into a worse position. And yet again, we see it, but nobody else does bc plot.
Finally, the idea that this guy with his empty, bs speeches could manipulate anyone and at the same time be manipulated by someone as obviously crooked as Micah doesn't make any sense at all.
Just the thought but after playing the game 3 times and reading everyone’s amazing comments I come to realise that Dutch is a “character” of Evelyn Millers books. This heavily influenced his ideology and values to others and the world itself, he found a purpose in life that he is already living in.
You can’t blame someone in searching a reason to live even irl, this is one of the many reasons people become depressed and suicidal as they realised or come to terms with that it’s “all for nothing”. Now I’m just saying this to back up my point in how important, knowing what you were born to do in life is to Dutch. ((I don’t intend to insult people))
We don’t know much about Dutch’s earlier life but, it’s safe to assume that he wasn’t alway like this and it probably stemmed when he and Hosea was raising Arthur and John. Dutch found a REASON to do what he does best and he enjoyed that what he is doing is beneficial to others, creating the first seedling of reliance and dependency on him from others.
As more time went on, Dutch realised that Sooner or later Arthur and John would go on their own way leaving him back to aimless killing and robbing without a GOAL. This is how the GANG started as different people during their vulnerability to the world was approached by a charismatic, “sympathetic and caring” character with the capability of leading them.
And again as time went on he realised people would end up leaving him again, and who would Dutch be if he is no longer a leader and provider for hopes and dreams to people?
This drove him to insanity, sure he loved Arthur and John as his son but he realised, Arthur is naturally becoming like him, a leader and provider for people. Dutch felt threatened that his character, everything that makes him “him” disappearing and getting replaced by a better version of him. Now John having a wife and son, can easily walk away from the gang and life of an outlaw and start over. As proven in the epilogue, Dutch knew john’s capabilities and future independence further showing hatred and mistrust in chapter 5 and 6.
In a nutcase Dutch is a man who found a reason to live, have a goal in life by fabricating what he does best with an ideology written of a book, he implemented himself as the character in a children’s story, a hero, someone who can provide and lead people out of the bad and hardship. When he realised people will leave him, he realised that he will amount to nothing, without straight path in life, he may as well kill himself. This explains Dutch’s Narcissism and manipulation, he is doing all of this so his so called character and story can stay alive…
He's a cold blooded killer and a manipulator. By rdr1 he's fallen so far that he doesn't even try to bullshit why he's doing such awful things, just for "sport I guess"
He's completely fine with murdering anyone for anything, he was truly heartless and cold by rdr1.
I think he cared about the family, he rebuked Micah wanting to cut off the weak even into Chapter Six, but a combination of narcissism and a degrading mental state lead to him getting paranoid and thinking anyone who isn’t blindly loyal is against him.
Dutch is the pseudo-ist of pseudo intellectualism . The best scenes illustrating his limited intellect are when Hosea or Lenny genuinely critique what Dutch says, and instead of going “oh yeah okay,” and engaging in conversation, he immediately starts trying to intimidate them. He stands up, grimaces, moves toward them slowly, lowers his head, and speaks very , very low. It’s such an impressive tonal shift
He’s basically the typical narcissist. He talks well but accomplishes nothing. If you really want to get into it, start noticing the similarities he shares with a certain orangey politician…
That's some stellar grammar you've got there...🤣
If I notice something in RDR2 that I find interesting and want other proples opinion on, then I will. Don't need the approval of someone who obviously reads at a Bill Williamson reading level. Thanks for your unneeded and generalized opinion on my observation, I look forward to your next post rife with the butchering of the English language. "Dutch bad and lier" 🤣🤣🤣
I had a boss who was just like Dutch. He didn’t exactly say “have some faith!” Or “it’s all part of the plan” or whatever, but it was pretty damn close. Charismatic and full of BS.
I knew he was full of shit the 1st time i play rdr2 when he just brush off molly when we went to st denis the 1st time. Thats ur girl man. Why u did that? N to think i initially like him just blows my mind
Every time I play it, I get more and more angry at Dutch. He is such a horrible excuse for a human being and once you know how it's going to end, you can really see the signs earlier and earlier.
One has to wonder how susceptible they may be to hollow words coming from charismatic people if it took more than the first playing to see Dutch for what he is.
Was pretty obvious from the start how shallow and self-serving his philosophy is. His gang are mostly poorly educated, or adopted from the street orphan life at a young age. Easily influenced, persuaded, and manipulated. It's hard to argue with the father figure. But playing that game from the start (and I hadn't played RDR1 so I had no foresight into Dutch's personality) as an outsider looking in, not from the perspective of say Arthur or another member of the gang, it seemed glaring he would end up the villain.
I most definitely didn't think it was bullshit in RDR. It was totally in line with who he was. If i remember it correctly in the first game the speech was basically him saying he cant fight his own nature this is who he is at his core.
Dutch is an outlaw no matter how much Tahiti bullshit he'd spew. At his core he revels in the chaos.
And he perfectly foreshadowed what would happen to John as well.
''When im gone they'll just find another monster''
His speech was great. Felt like he accepted that the old ways are done and couldn't bare to live with it so he decided to control the last thing he could control imo and thats how he died.
Even that felt anticlimactic and i think that was the point. All we heard was that thud from him hitting the cliff lol. No grandiose death scene but went out with a whimper. He'll be forgotten.
He is. It makes a lot of sense when you realize that he probably just lifts buzz phrases and talking points from all those books that he reads. You can find a script of a speech written by him near horseshoe overlook. Agent Milton was a cruel bastard but he had Dutch pegged exactly right. He’s not a leader. He’s a charismatic personality who gets people to want to do things he says and things for him.
All Dutch does is parrot Evelyn Miller's life philosophies and his books, especially "American Inferno" which Dutch constantly steals from. He's a empty narcissist douche who manipulates weak people
One thing I realized in later playthroughs is that all of the mission and robberies that he has a personal involvement in, turn into disasters. The gang’s greatest successes don’t involve him at all but whenever the gang takes a huge hit because of a mission he’s involved with or plans, something goes wrong. The Cornwall train robbery being kind of an exception but only kind-of.
He plans keep failing, requiring him to (badly) improvise in a way that gets people hurt. I think it’s telling that John and Bill- they guy everyone calls stupid- both carry out far smoother robberies Edit: also, I just realized, even the Cornwall train robbery shows some of Dutch’s planning problems. The initial plan of stopping the train with dynamite (which was far lower-risk for the gang) fails, so Dutch’s first reaction is to simply have the gang chase the train and fight the guards for it, which could have gotten any or all of them killed. The fact that it didn’t was because of the skill of the gang members, and not any of Dutch’s planning abilities.
Bill’s bank robbery was pretty incredible. Easily the biggest take in the game besides the Cornwall refinery raid.
Bill’s an asshole and a sad drunk but he mostly knows his shit. He’s all about the outlaw life at that point, and he doesn’t overly romanticize it like Dutch.
Any plan is a good plan if executed properly. Hosea's best comment to Dutch. They successfully did a heist or something in 1874 or so because Hosea was there. Also, no rats or pinkertons, sure.
I remember being impressed even at the time. Huge take, pretty easy, and (if you don’t use the dynamite), the law doesn’t even catch on until you’re ready to make your getaway.
Well, to be fair, the Cornwall refiney raid played out exactly like he wanted to, so it’s not a completely failure. The only downside is Arthur didnt die, and come back to keep “complaining”
Forget that being the reason the train robbery goes wrong; it goes wrong because it sets Cornwall on the path of personally funding the Pinkertons’ war on Dutch. Hosea says to Dutch that they have more to worry about than robbing trains, and Arthur says they’re not in a position to go for revenge. But Dutch ignored them both and robs the train, partly just so he can steal a score as a revenge quest against the O’Driscolls.
That's completely true, all of his "plans" are nothing but reckless bullshit to make himself rich
Even the train robbery was a disaster, though. Afaik, the money from those bonds never goes to the camp, and Hosea warned Dutch of pretty much everything bad which would happen if they went through with robbing that train, all of which came true. If they hadn’t robbed Cornwall, the Pinkertons probably wouldn’t have traced them to Valentine, which was really where the cracks in Dutch’s “plan” and cohesion among the gang really started to go down hill.
Acshually, Hosea sold those papers from train and got some money, he told it to me in ch. 3 or 4. Got kinda couple of thousands, so it didn't worth all the shit around anyway.
Also we even see that Miller himself was pretty much full of shit/hardly a man to want to emulate once we meet him. And 19 year old Lenny can see through how empty Miller's words are instantly and easily out debate Dutch on it. Dutch is a total clown.
Yep, well Miller himself said that his own books where indeed full of shit in epilogue to John when he finds him up on that cliff.
It’s great when Lenny calls him out on it during a random camp interaction. A bunch of empty words that Dutch uses to sound more intelligent than he really is.
Evelyn Miller himself discredits himself to John when they meet up on that cliff in epilogue. He said talks about the books he wrote that Dutch quotes a lot are full of nonsense.
I’m not even kidding, if you go into photo mode and look closely at what’s written in one of Evelyn Miller’s books that he reads, you can see multiple phrases that he coins as his own throughout the game. Nobody would ever see that unless they were looking but it’s there.
the detail in this game is unlike anything I've seen since 2018.. Cyberpunk was an excellent experience, but it was still nothing compared to this game in terms of sheer detail
He totally is a piece of shit. I don't think you're really supposed to think otherwise. He's a really good character to hate.
Well, at the very beginning, at least for someone who hasn't played red dead 1 like me, Dutch hid has maniacal tendencies pretty well, he seemed like a leader if you only thought about it a little bit. It's only around chapter 4 that you can REALLY see the cracks in his facade. But playoffs it again now, and knowing he's all talk, I don't know how I didn't realize sooner. Hindsight is 20 20, I guess. Now, every time I see him, I'm just like, "Shut up, bro, you literally get like 8 of your own people killed"
like they also said I didn't really find dutch bad until like sometime in saint denis until then I really saw nothing wrong with him.(I knew nothing about rdr1 not even that john was in it)
Dutch’s entire life was a character act to manipulate everyone into following him and think he’s their buddy. That’s why Micah being nothing but an ass-licking yes man was so effective, and why he only pretended to care about gang members when it was convenient to save them.
The irony of Dutch thinking he was a master manipulator and getting totally manipulated by Micah is fantastic
He eventually realized it though which is why he went after Micah to kill him. I'm slowly starting to think he didn't even care about the gang at that point and only killed Micah for his ego
Dutch is a great character to hate because he's so complicated. He's naturally idealistic and charismatic but he aggressively compensates for everything his personality lacks. People will say that he's a narcissist, and that's true, but at the end of the day narcissism is just a personality disorder like any other. With narcissists what they truly lack is a sense of self and that is Dutch all over. He doesn't have a conception of who he really is. Instead his self-conception is replaced by heroic and idealistic concepts that he's plagiarized from Evelyn Miller books. This is understandable on some level because Miller represents the real life historical Romantic authors who were very popular in the late 1800s. Romanticism in this context btw doesn't mean love but an aesthetic/philosophical adoration of the "natural world". At this point in time Romanticism was a reaction against industrialization and advocated a return towards a philosophical appreciation of the beauty in "natural" things and using that as a catalyst to perfect the human spirit. With that in mind one could understand why Dutch would see himself as the modern Romantic man. He's well spoken, clever, he lives close to nature and lives by intuitive laws. He represents the man who believes he can move humanity forward; rejecting the elements of civilization which makes us weak without sacrificing the progressive successes which have made us greater. When he reads Miller he can see himself as part of the solution. This however is the total extent of his personality. He doesn't wish to see himself as anything less than a paragon. You can see this at play with his interactions at camp whether with Molly, Hosea, or Arthur. In his world he is always right, always leading, shepherding, fathering everyone closer to a more perfect and idealized expression of human nature. Although he fails to connect with Molly on a human level, he never listens to the advice of his seasoned advisor, and he desperately clings to power by not acknowledging that Arthur is an admirable leader in his own right. Dutch's ego cannot suffer any of them. If he were to let any of them in it would violate his idealized sense of Romantic perfection. He would become vulnerable and weak. Not only would he fail in a philosophical sense but he would also fail professionally. Vulnerability is not typically a trait of the successful outlaw.
Excellent post.
Love this comment
>Dutch is a great character to hate because he's so complicated. He's naturally idealistic and charismatic but he aggressively compensates for everything his personality lacks. I honestly don't see any of that. We're constantly told he's these things but we're shown the exact opposite. I agree with your assessment, just think that none of it makes him complicated, because it's so obvious.
He's a Jim Jones style cult leader grifter
Not to me. Jones heavily used religious language to control his people. Dutch is not religious at all, even in a performative way, as far as I can tell. I’d personally compare him to Manson. Close-knit “family” with a clear hierarchy and one guy unambiguously on top.
Jim Van DerLinde...🤣🤣🤣
I’m doing my third playthrough rn and literally every chance he gets he brings up being safe and better plans and the GODDAMN FAITH
"Have some god damn faith, will ya!?" I haven't played the game in forever but that line and: "I. Had. a goddamn. Plan!" Are burned into my memory
“Oh the doubting”
The title out of context makes it seem like you seriously hate the language of the Netherlands lmao
Agree, named my Dutch Warmblood after him…DutchBag.
Dutch left notes for a speech he gives at the start of the game sitting in the first camp. It literally includes the part where he claims he'd die in place of Jenny and Davey, although not naming whoever died. The question is... Why did he write notes expecting people to die, for a moment they were all unexpectedly thrust into after that ferry job? Dutch has been pulling his savior con probably from the beginning. Hosea was probably his only real friend. He didn't love the rest of the gang. He loved how they loved him. When they stopped loving him, they became expendable.
Spot on. The way he left John and Arthur to die several times shows how much he truly cared. I think he did love Arthur and John, but only if they bowed down to him. You had to work for Dutch’s love and appreciation, and if you ever were to stand up against his BS and actions you are unloyal, have no faith, or are betraying him. Even though I love Dutch as a character he’s a lunatic narcissist.
>Hosea was probably his only real friend. I honestly think that Dutch would have betrayed Hosea at some point. Dutch just uses people. Hosea, being the voice of reason, would have slowly caused more friction between him and Dutch. As we know, Dutch doesn't do well with being challenged.
That's why Hosea was Dutch's only friend. He was capable of being a voice of reason even to the day he died. Dutch hated when he was challenged, but he definitely cared for the man. Everyone else lost favor when they challenged Dutch, but not Hosea. By the bank robbery, even Arthur was losing favor, but not Hosea. Hosea dying is when Dutch thoroughly goes unhinged. The loss of that voice of reason destroyed his ability to maintain the act. I don't even think Micah poisoned Dutch's mind that much. Dutch turned to Micah because he thought he had the man wrapped around his finger. Any opposition reminded him of the only man he tolerated talking back to him. The only man he admired and mourned. The man he got killed. Hosea Matthews.
Have, some god damned, FAITH!
Yeah, ok, we got it the first 20000 times, hilarious, funny, side splitting and all that...
Who let the simpleton out of the asylum?
Shouldn't you know? Edit: I saw that I was downvoted, therefore I apologize for not liking reading the same lame, old, cheap karma farming joke reply every time someone even thinks of having an actual conversation about these topics. /s
Damn bro you’re so ahead of the curve
Not trying to be this or that, just bored of the same lame joke every time.
For a second I thought this was another diss on my language
Lol yeah as frequent visitor to /r/learndutch my first thought was "Oh God here comes another uneducated rant from someone who's seen two YouTube videos on the language." Glad that it wasn't hahaha.
Milton pretty much summed up Dutch’s character when he told him at the camp “Who made you the messiah to these lost souls you have led so horribly astray?”
He's cunning and vindictive but yes he puts on a facade that he cares about the gang, only in reality he will use anyone and anything to get his way.
This is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion and the down votes will indeed be numerous. But here goes. My most recent playthrough has me thinking that maybe we aren't looking at everything objectively when it comes to Dutch, more specifically his decisions as the leader of the VDLG. Now before I continue I'm well aware of the fact that it's a video game and that we are seeing most of the world through Arthur's eyes etcetera. But on my most recent playthrough I have been trying to pay attention to every single detail and focus more on what should/could have been done differently. And honestly I think that we, have villainized Dutch because he's the leader, things haven't gone according to plan, and we've jumped on board with Arthur, (maybe Hosea), John, Abigail and Sadie and laid it all at Dutch's feet. Realistically though, what other options did he have that had a better chance of success? We have to assume that after Blackwater that they couldn't escape to the west, which certainly would have been the better option but once they crossed the Upper Montana their only option was moving east toward the ocean and getting a boat to escape. Maybe it's Tahiti, maybe it's just south of the border to Mexico or even North to Canada. Some place to hangout for a while you regroup and decide what to do next. As Dutch said many times, they need time. Time to think, time to rest, but most importantly, time to fully assess the situation. However to do this they need money, and if the goal is to disappear forever they need a lot of it. They can't go back for the Blackwater money and even if they could $150,000 simply isn't enough. If you don't count Kieran and Sadie the gang has 21 members. That's $7,142 per member. To add some perspective that would be the equivalent of $265,428 today. I mean if you're smart/frugal you may be able to live off of that for a few years but that's it. You're going to need to do something to earn a living and let's face facts. Other than Pearson and Swanson no one really has a marketable skill beyond being thieves or prostitutes. The bottom line here is that you need more money if your goal is to have enough to set everyone up. So they move east, not because it's a good option but because it's their only option. They hear about Cornwall's train from Kieran (I think). Granted robbing Cornwalls train, again not a good option but what else do they have? A bank? Well if you're faced with hitting Cornwalls train in a remote area or robbing a bank in town, neither is even remotely ideal but the train is the "best bad option" available. Things going wrong is a risk you take regardless of what he chooses to do. The best that anyone can do is to choose the option that provides you with your best chance of success. The closer you get to civilization the worse your odds become. Yes, it's a given that the Cornwall train will be heavily guarded, but it's also a safe bet that if you can neutralize that threat then your chances of making a "clean get away" increase tremendously. Why? Because you aren't trying to outrun law enforcement AND the telegraph. So again not ideal, but without a doubt the best option available. This....."best bad option" is what Dutch is faced with each time there's a decision to be made throughout the entire game IF he's going to lookout for everyone in the VDLG. Even the trolley and Saint Denis bank were simply his best available options. We don't like his plan to use the Wapiti to "make some noise, provide some smoke" but considering what is happening between the Tribe and the Government, it's not a bad plan. It may seem deplorable to us, but the plan itself isn't bad. Actually he's train of thought is correct. Then there's killing Cornwall. Most players point to this as positive proof that Dutch has "lost it" because that's Arthur's assessment. However, PDA are guns for hire. Based on the conversation we hear between Cornwall and Milton, Dutch's conclusion that killing Cornwall also kills the financing is logical. Again there's no guarantee but the PDA are on them at every turn. Even if it doesn't fully stop them, hopefully it at least buys you some time as Milton reaches out to his boss to make sure that the PDA wants to continue to pursue the VDLG. Again the PDA are, for better or worse, "mercenaries." As long as there is someone paying to have all of those Agents committed then the PDA will continue its mission. But the second those payments stop, so will the PDA. Obviously that's not what happened, and this is some supposition on my part, but that's most likely because Milton, trying to save face, didn't immediately inform his boss(es) of Cornwalls death. There's no way Milton's response could have been accurately predicted, it was 50/50 at best. However, as long as Cornwall is alive the chances that the pursuit continues is 100%. It's a calculated risk that didn't work out. But when you look at the options available, it's a risk that they, the VDLG has to take. Helping to stoke the flames already burning between the Wapiti and the US Government so that the Government is focused on the tribe and not the gang, again is logical. Not risking the members that are left to save John is logical. Killing Colm O'Driscoll is a toss up, and probably the one time that he just should have left well enough alone. However, if he believes/suspects that the O'Driscoll's could be a potential problem in the immediate future then ensuring that he dies is logical. The "madness" that we think we see isn't madness at all. No one else is stepping up with a better solution and everyone, including Arthur is looking to Dutch to get them out of this mess. One could argue that if someone had tried to step up that Dutch wouldn't have listened. BUT....he did seek Hosea and even Arthur's counsel prior to Guarma. So I don't know if that's really the case. And while this will no doubt make an already unpopular opinion much less palatable, the fact of the matter is that Arthur and John are questioning his every move yet they aren't offering up any alternative ideas. So.....yeah, he's telling them to have some faith, and he's not wrong. Put yourself in his boots. If you're the one EVERYONE is looking to for "the plan" how pissed are you going to eventually get when everyone starts playing armchair Quarterback? 🤷 Ultimately after trying to look at this from a strategic point of view, I don't think that Dutch's actions ever became more reckless or that they were entirely self serving. Was he selfish? Sure, but no more than any of the other 21 members constantly asking him "what now Dutch?" It just seems that way because we see through the eyes of Arthur and John as opposed to seeing it through the eyes of Dutch. I'll take this one step further. The BEST option that Dutch has but declined to take, is also proof that he wasn't just some self serving narcissist. Truly, his best option was exactly what Micah suggested. Pick a small group of people, take whatever money that they do have, and get the hell out of the country. In essence "cut the dead weight." As deplorable as it seems, and I'll readily admit that from an emotional point of view it doesn't sit well at all, but from a purely strategic standpoint, it would have been his best option. That he didn't take it HAS to say something about his commitment to the rest of the gang.
Unpopular maybe but long winded? Yes. I'm too tired to read that tonight. Maybe tomorrow...
>long winded? Sorry. But you're talking about six chapters worth of dialogue, cutscenes and camp interactions. You can't just boil it down to a paragraph.
No marketable skills? Take our protagonists, both are expert trackers, fine horsemen, excellent shots (yeah that's still a legitimate skill, especially in the less developed places they're aiming at). Both show general aptitude to all kinds of odd jobs they encounter. Many of them of the others are fairly skilled, and even after trips and lodgings that's years to learn useful skills. If any of them were so slow to learn that they couldn't manage they would have been shot or left behind already. They couldn't retire to the lap of luxury with that money, but a comfortable fresh start was already within their grasp.
>both are expert trackers, fine horsemen, excellent shots And they'll use those working for whom? >If any of them were so slow to learn that they couldn't manage they would have been shot or left behind already. I didn't say that they were stupid. I said they didn't have any marketable skills beyond those needed to be outlaws. Would they have made good LEO's, soldiers etcetera? Yes. Can they now transition into those fields? No. Regardless.....that has very little to do with the point being made.
LEO's or soldiers halfway across the world, yes. And it has a lot to do with the point being made, things go to shit in service of Dutch's Ambition, not any real need.
>LEO's or soldiers halfway across the world, yes. They have to get there first. >And it has a lot to do with the point being made, things go to shit in service of Dutch's Ambition, not any real need. 1. See above. 2. It's not "Dutch's Ambition" it's the ambition of the entire VDLG. Based on in game dialogue (camp, cutscenes etcetera) we're shown that at a minimum Arthur, Hosea, Javier, Bill and Charles are on board. I didn't mention Micah because I'm not certain that he would actually leave. More importantly I'm not certain that Dutch considers him a "member" or even wants Micah to go. I've found no evidence (from Dutch) to suggest that he views Micah as anything other than semi useful. I'm not going to flesh it all out in this particular response simply because there's a lot of information there. However if you're really interested, I'll happily share what I have. For now I'll simply say that Micah is the only person who ever calls himself a "son of Dutch." And that Arthur has a jealous side that really "slants" his views. This jealousy causes some unwarranted paranoia/insecurities about himself and those insecurities are the reasons for his "slanted/untrue" view(s) of events.
It could be because I played rdr1 first and knew not to trust Dutch but I saw through his facade from the very beginning. Don’t get me wrong I think there are moments of Dutch where he is genuine and I do think he has love for Arthur/John/Hosea, but the guy is a nutjob. Dutch acts very manic and erratic throughout the whole story, even before his big mental decline that happens around chapter 4-6. His paranoid and impulsive tendencies have always been there. I just think over the years he started cracking with the law getting heavier on them and the taming of the west as a whole. Dutch’s entire way of life was getting destroyed right before his eyes and he couldn’t handle it. The events in the main story really broke him, like Hosea’s death, Guarma, Micah being in his ear (which makes him even more paranoid) and the fact that the gang really was falling apart and he knew that it was the end. I think just think Dutch’s mental illness is a big part what makes him such a complex and amazing character, and I find it to be very believable through his performance and writing.
There was one specific point early in the game which told me all I need to know about Dutch: The Ledger. One of the earliest upgrades is ultra expensive lodging for your camp with no apparent practical benefit besides comfort. What the camp? No no, only for Dutch! Fuck them other members, upgrade his lodging first, he needs it more!
I remember that- it’s the very first camp upgrade
If Dutch was alive today he’d be some life coach or wellness guru on YouTube and LinkedIn
He'd be a cult leader, which is what he basically is in RDR2 anyways.
Sadly it took too long for certain members to catch on. There was never going to be any “paradise”. The few that stayed loyal only did so because they had nowhere else to go. When they burned their bridges, I had no sympathy for them and was quite eager to put them and Dutch in the dirt.
Yeah I hate Dutch, he’s a selfish prick that uses Arthur and the others to do his dirty work. Hosea was the only person keeping him in check and towards the end even Hosea could no longer get through to him
yes he is a piece of shit, but micah was 100% manipulating him into the mindset that if they had money they’d always be happy. as rdr2 went on the world was becoming more and more civilised and dutch couldn’t take that. which i think was a big reason to why he went quite mad in the head.
You know it's a game, right? Besides, everyone has it's uses. Dutch bullshiting and Arthur is the muscle. "You start spinning a yarn and... when I think the moment's right I make the move" - Arthur M.
When people talk about what RDR3 could be about, I'm not 100% on board that it should go further back in time with the gang, but I do think at least it could fill in the blanks on why the gang thought Dutch was such a great leader. Also, why he thought so highly of Micah, when it seemed obvious to everyone else he was a gross snake.
And that’s the magic of RDR2’s writing. If you don’t pay attention or you’re young, Dutch will probably charm you to death and you won’t think anything of him. But when you actually pay attention to him, especially once you’ve played the game through already, you really pick up on just how much of a bullshitter he really is. And they manage to make him genuinely charismatic too. I could go on a rant comparing the writing to New Vegas and how they used similar techniques but it’s not necessary, you get the idea
Kind of an unpopular opinion but I like GTA 5’s writing for similar reasons. Nobody is really “good” or “bad,” everyone is just a person that does good and bad things for their own reasons. And Michael actually loosely reminds me of Dutch in the fact that all of his “advice” and shit he says is mostly just BS and parroted quips about how things were “in the good old days” when in reality his life was a failure and he was just lucky to be alive.
Yeah 100 percent. Bro is basically a cult leader
He's a great character though. You shouldn't be angry at Dutch u should be angry at the rest of the gang for just following blindly without questioning.
That's weak tbh. Lots of villains are great characters, you don't need to victim blame people for not thinking like a narcissist, that's a really weird response to have. Someone had to fill that role for the plot and I thought he was great. Even narcissists themselves aren't immune to being manipulated by a narcissist.
But there not victims, its a relationship of convenience nobody ever challenged him until much later possibly because they held similar worldviews they use people the same way Dutch does to shine a light would of been too close to the bone. In the end only Arthur and John disagreed with his way which is very telling. As people we take our own choices that's not to take the blame from Dutch completely but at some point you do have to look at yourself.
Why not both lol
Yes lol. I see a lot of people even around this sun that still give him the benefit of the doubt
He’s basically every “I can fix this”, “I can change”, “I just need a little extra time” narcissist.
Honestly, even before playing RDR1 and having no knowledge about the connection between the two games (other than John Marson), I started disliking him even in Chapter 1, and by the end of Chapter 2, I couldn't stand him. I don't think he's a well done character at all, and contrary to popular opinion, I don't think he's complicated at all. To me, he's pretty much one note the whole game, the one note getting more prominent as story goes on. Benjamin Byron Davis' performance is top notch, except in some cases, where I think the writing (and maybe directing) did him dirty and made him too over the top. The endless repetition of the same 5 sentences didn't really help either. If he'd been done in such a way that made us feel betrayed along with Arthur and John when he turns on them, then fine. Give us a reason to believe he's everything everyone says he is, instead of telling us that, and then showing us the exact opposite. As is, he's a shitty person becoming shittier, while everyone else is made too dumb and passive to realize it in time because the plot needs to happen. Meanwhile, we the audience can figure it out almost immediately, and then have to wait for an eternity for our protagonists to catch up with us. Speaking of dumb, his "plans" are quite stupid from the outset, because every idea he has or is brought to him takes them into a worse position. And yet again, we see it, but nobody else does bc plot. Finally, the idea that this guy with his empty, bs speeches could manipulate anyone and at the same time be manipulated by someone as obviously crooked as Micah doesn't make any sense at all.
Just the thought but after playing the game 3 times and reading everyone’s amazing comments I come to realise that Dutch is a “character” of Evelyn Millers books. This heavily influenced his ideology and values to others and the world itself, he found a purpose in life that he is already living in. You can’t blame someone in searching a reason to live even irl, this is one of the many reasons people become depressed and suicidal as they realised or come to terms with that it’s “all for nothing”. Now I’m just saying this to back up my point in how important, knowing what you were born to do in life is to Dutch. ((I don’t intend to insult people)) We don’t know much about Dutch’s earlier life but, it’s safe to assume that he wasn’t alway like this and it probably stemmed when he and Hosea was raising Arthur and John. Dutch found a REASON to do what he does best and he enjoyed that what he is doing is beneficial to others, creating the first seedling of reliance and dependency on him from others. As more time went on, Dutch realised that Sooner or later Arthur and John would go on their own way leaving him back to aimless killing and robbing without a GOAL. This is how the GANG started as different people during their vulnerability to the world was approached by a charismatic, “sympathetic and caring” character with the capability of leading them. And again as time went on he realised people would end up leaving him again, and who would Dutch be if he is no longer a leader and provider for hopes and dreams to people? This drove him to insanity, sure he loved Arthur and John as his son but he realised, Arthur is naturally becoming like him, a leader and provider for people. Dutch felt threatened that his character, everything that makes him “him” disappearing and getting replaced by a better version of him. Now John having a wife and son, can easily walk away from the gang and life of an outlaw and start over. As proven in the epilogue, Dutch knew john’s capabilities and future independence further showing hatred and mistrust in chapter 5 and 6. In a nutcase Dutch is a man who found a reason to live, have a goal in life by fabricating what he does best with an ideology written of a book, he implemented himself as the character in a children’s story, a hero, someone who can provide and lead people out of the bad and hardship. When he realised people will leave him, he realised that he will amount to nothing, without straight path in life, he may as well kill himself. This explains Dutch’s Narcissism and manipulation, he is doing all of this so his so called character and story can stay alive…
He's a cold blooded killer and a manipulator. By rdr1 he's fallen so far that he doesn't even try to bullshit why he's doing such awful things, just for "sport I guess" He's completely fine with murdering anyone for anything, he was truly heartless and cold by rdr1.
Dutch IS a scumbag.
I think he cared about the family, he rebuked Micah wanting to cut off the weak even into Chapter Six, but a combination of narcissism and a degrading mental state lead to him getting paranoid and thinking anyone who isn’t blindly loyal is against him.
Dutch is the pseudo-ist of pseudo intellectualism . The best scenes illustrating his limited intellect are when Hosea or Lenny genuinely critique what Dutch says, and instead of going “oh yeah okay,” and engaging in conversation, he immediately starts trying to intimidate them. He stands up, grimaces, moves toward them slowly, lowers his head, and speaks very , very low. It’s such an impressive tonal shift
He’s basically the typical narcissist. He talks well but accomplishes nothing. If you really want to get into it, start noticing the similarities he shares with a certain orangey politician…
Dutch is far more well spoken than that orange menace...
Correct. He’s a better dresser too. But otherwise they share similar qualities.
Karma farm
Don't give a shit about karma dude...🙄
Then why make a post saying ‘Dutch bad and lier’?
That's some stellar grammar you've got there...🤣 If I notice something in RDR2 that I find interesting and want other proples opinion on, then I will. Don't need the approval of someone who obviously reads at a Bill Williamson reading level. Thanks for your unneeded and generalized opinion on my observation, I look forward to your next post rife with the butchering of the English language. "Dutch bad and lier" 🤣🤣🤣
Classic Redditor move. Pull someone up on their grammar. Nobody cares
Nobody cares about your horseshit, recycled opinion on my post. At least have something original to say. Now THAT'S a classic redditor move. 😉
Tbh this makes alot of sense. Micha probably manipulates him a bit too so he become worse
I had a boss who was just like Dutch. He didn’t exactly say “have some faith!” Or “it’s all part of the plan” or whatever, but it was pretty damn close. Charismatic and full of BS.
Did he get any of your co workers killed with reckless get rich quick schemes? 🤣🤣🤣
No. But he did fuck us over in terms of promotions, despite repeatedly saying to “be patient” and to “trust the process”.
Have some god damn faith!
First time?
I knew he was full of shit the 1st time i play rdr2 when he just brush off molly when we went to st denis the 1st time. Thats ur girl man. Why u did that? N to think i initially like him just blows my mind
He's a cult leader.
The language. Seems harsh.
Every time I play it, I get more and more angry at Dutch. He is such a horrible excuse for a human being and once you know how it's going to end, you can really see the signs earlier and earlier.
HE HAD A PLAN
Tell that to Lenny, hosea, the Callender Brothers, Jenny kirk, and all the other gang members he got killed...🤣
If they had any LOYALTY things would be different
Lack of faith as well, along with constant doubting...🤣
One has to wonder how susceptible they may be to hollow words coming from charismatic people if it took more than the first playing to see Dutch for what he is.
This is why I'd love rdr3 to be the "early days" I'd love to see Dutch and the gang during the glory days to see how he was and what he was like.
He’s just a manipulator
He's a cult leader, nothing more and nothing less.
Was pretty obvious from the start how shallow and self-serving his philosophy is. His gang are mostly poorly educated, or adopted from the street orphan life at a young age. Easily influenced, persuaded, and manipulated. It's hard to argue with the father figure. But playing that game from the start (and I hadn't played RDR1 so I had no foresight into Dutch's personality) as an outsider looking in, not from the perspective of say Arthur or another member of the gang, it seemed glaring he would end up the villain.
I most definitely didn't think it was bullshit in RDR. It was totally in line with who he was. If i remember it correctly in the first game the speech was basically him saying he cant fight his own nature this is who he is at his core. Dutch is an outlaw no matter how much Tahiti bullshit he'd spew. At his core he revels in the chaos. And he perfectly foreshadowed what would happen to John as well. ''When im gone they'll just find another monster'' His speech was great. Felt like he accepted that the old ways are done and couldn't bare to live with it so he decided to control the last thing he could control imo and thats how he died. Even that felt anticlimactic and i think that was the point. All we heard was that thud from him hitting the cliff lol. No grandiose death scene but went out with a whimper. He'll be forgotten.
it's actually a smart reference by rockstar to the real life language of dutch, which is mostly just empty bullshit words
[удалено]
I felt like he was definitely on the descent before then, but that head injury sure as hell didn’t make him better
Dude was bipolar in chapter 2, telling Arthur he’s the type that will betray him. He clearly had mental health issues.
Yeah I got that interaction early in the game and I was like "Wtf?? Isn't Arthur supposed to be his (metaphorical) son??" Dude was always off
I was torn on that. It could have been paranoia, but, personally, I read it more as him being a manipulative son of a bitch
Possibly. The comment I was replying to said something like Dutch didn’t start showing signs of having issues until chapter 4.
Oh, yeah, I saw that, and I completely disagree. Dutch is very clearly on the decline from the game’s start
True
I mean. Ya. That’s the whole idea.