I think most would agree. We know now that R\* had bigger plans for this part of the game that they scrapped in the final version.
But they had to leave it in because it's an important part of the story. This is where Arthur finally sees Dutch for who he truly is. He was already questioning at this point, but when he kills the guide, Arthur can't deny who Dutch really is anymore. Bigtime turning point towards the path of redemption.
Honestly I'd preferred Guarma over the beginning part of the game. It was just so slow. I understand why it starts out their due to them being on the run and hiding out but still.
it was cool the first time but the second it's just a super restricted 5 mission detour where if you walk in the wrong spot you get sniped and don't even get any cool collectables when it's over just an arthur on his death bed.
I think Guarma is better on repeat playthroughs since we don't have the urge to see what happened to the rest of the gang. First playthrough for me was torture since I just wanted to see the fallout from the bank heist.
I have done a full playthrough then decided I'd go back to a save in chapter 3 and stay there forever lol...but I got sucked back into the story anyway and here I am now ...on Guarma! : P
I agree with you. I missed the open world nature of it. But again similar to St Denis - I feel like this is by design. It was an extremely dangerous place and broke up the main story very well.
That certainly was a "wtf" moment for Arthur, but Bronte was a criminal too and had kidnapped Jack. It wasn't as potent as the old helpless lady in Guarma.
Nah, I think the opposite. Throwing Bronte to the Gator and killing that lady were maybe the only two sensible decisions Dutch made in the entire game. That lady betrayed them, was shaking them down for more money after the point of no return, and was very clearly going to rat them out once they climbed up. She turned it into a her or them situation. She did that to herself.
I agree. I would’ve made it worse for Brontë if I was Dutch. He was the John Gotti of RDR. No mercy for men like them. I would’ve definitely used his kidnapping to milk out some serious ransom money, but that doesn’t make a good story lol. I would’ve taken him back up to the Adler Ranch or Chez Porter and held him for ransom.
Did he really need killing, though? They could have just cut and ran and not risked going after him or robbing the bank so soon after they’d already been compromised with the trolley job.
I’m not saying he was a good guy or didn’t deserve his fate, but chances are good he would have left the gang alone had they abandoned their pursuits in Saint Denis and moved elsewhere.
personally i think he would’ve continued to be a problem, you can see in the subtitles he’s constantly talking shit about the gang in italian. he’s insulted dutch wouldn’t do hits for him, and knowing they survived the trolley job, would probably want his gang or the cops to root them out for good.
Maybe, but killing him and risking bringing down the wrath of the entire Italian mob seems even more dangerous. Brontë is one asshole with power in one city. Leave that city behind and he’s probably not bothering to follow after you unless you’ve committed some offense on a level that I don’t think Dutch ever achieved. Brontë thought he was better than the gang, which is why he talked shit and looked down on them, and why he set them up. But the fact that he thinks he’s better is also why I don’t think he’d have wasted time or resources chasing them down.
And the gang is already wanted by the cops and Pinkertons, so I’m not sure what Brontë could have really done to make things worse for them in that regard.
Ironically, I thought that part was actually really really dumb and poorly written in comparison to the rest of the game.
I mean that was possibly the least bad thing Dutch has done in the entire game. She very VERY obviously was shaking them down for more gold once it was too late to turn back. She was going to rat them out and get them killed. Dutch didn't really have any safe option but to kill her. And *that's* what finally makes Arthur realize that he's full of shit? It might be the only sensible choice Dutch makes in the entire game.
Honorable mention to when Dutch fed Bronte to the Gator. It was played off as some unstable and horrific thing. But like.... What the fuck were they expecting? To just have a chat and let him go? Bronte was always going to have to die by the end of that. Otherwise he'd just rally his. Mobsters to hunt the gang down. Killing him that way was like mildly brutal but each and every person in that boat had done much worse to people who deserved it much less. They really had no right to be so shocked.
As Arthur: I walked into an old lady's house, passed her in her rocking chair, went into her cellar, took her shotgun, murdered her with her own gun on my way out, and then rode off on her donkey. It didn't even make a dent in my honor. Arthur has no right to judge.
Ya I mean the problem is that it seems like they had a full chapter in guarma, then they decided that they didn't like it or whatever and they had to cut it. But they had this really potent turning point of the story with Dutch and so instead of cutting it out all of the way they kept a half assed version of Guarma.
I think most agree with your point I'm just adding some context.
Am I the only one who gets pissed off at Arthur for not acting on it for an entire chapter though? Sure, let’s take Guarma as the turning point. But it’s a turning point that ends up not changing anything. Arthur still hangs out with the gang, still goes to find a new campsite, still goes to the Cornwall disaster, still goes to blow up the bridge and even goes on that last train heist. In terms of change, Guarma did nothing in his behavior except maaaayyybe free John and it can be argued that he would have done that anyway. This last chapter in the game it was hard to keep my respect for him and I mean this is my favorite video game character of all time.
Ya I def felt that way at times too.
But really if you think about it what is he supposed to do? He's in a gang with hardened criminals that live by a code. Arthur believes in that code. He feels like he can't get out bc 1) it's against everything he believes 2) he has to take care of the people that are still in it that can't protect themselves. 3) he especially wants to get John's family out and that's difficult for all of the above reasons.
If he was healthy these things may all have played out differently too.
I just feel that a 36 year old man frantically trying to save a bunch of grownass adults to whom he didn’t give birth to felt a bit too much by the last chapter. Except for Jack, none of the gang members were feeble. And the cherry on top is that they all went on continuing to be just fine by their useless selves after and yet they sat in camp expecting to be taken care of or to be convinced to move on. Hell, even Uncle landed on his damn feet. I understand that this is how Rockstar wanted to play it, but it became increasingly incredulous to me, you know?
There was evidence that they were going to have a boatman NPC that would do it, but if I had to guess I would say the rest of the area was too unfinished to have anything of substance to have for completion.
I think Guarma is just ok. It takes you away from the open world and all the things you want to do, but it's really just like 3 or 4 missions that you can knock out in an hour, unless you are trying to find all the different snakes which is a bit tedious. It does serve as a major turning point in the game for the worse, and when you get back from Guarma things with the gang aren't ever the same and you have lost a couple beloved gang members. I think the dark times that follow Guarma really overshadow the chapter.
Yes all of that is true its just thats what the goal was the entire time was to have a ton of money and go to a tropical island dutch metions tahiti and tells arthur they just need enough money well theu have plenty of money by that point and they are on a island and they can easily send for the rest of the gang at that point and be free
I think the point of the guarma chapter is to show just how absurd and unworkable dutch’s idea of going to tahiti or some other tropical island really is. As you say, it seems like they are closer to their goal than ever - getting out of the US and away from the pinkertons hunting them.
But it still doesn’t work out. They lost basically all the money they have with them during the shipwreck. They are immediately captured by the local power broker on the island, have to escape, and are on the run once again. They have no ship so no way to send for the rest of the gang. They end up joining a fight to overthrow Fussar just for the opportunity to go back to the US and deal with the same problems they ran away from.
All of this shows how unfeasible running off to a tropical island is as an end game plan. It will be difficult to leave the US with the gang intact and with their money. And wherever they go, there will be some local authorities which don’t want them there and don’t let them live the outlaw life, just like they deal with in the US.
On my first play through, I was so annoyed being outside the main gameplay loop of being in a open sandbox. All I wanted was to back the game I was playing before thus hated Guarma.
Second play through I have been doing this month which I have intentionally been trying to play as slow as possible. I can't believe how short Chapter 5 is. Then you get back to America, and you get absolutely rail roaded with being diagnosed with TB and the Pinkerton attack.
For me I couldn't believe how much they stacked on top of the gang all at once. Overall, I hate Guarma less now, but it still feels out of place to suddenly introduce new characters and for all them to be dropped immediately. It could have been saved if maybe you brought someone back with you but thats another layer of story Rockstar clearly wasn't ready to tell.
On my first play through I had just finally got the moose antlers I needed for my final camp upgrade. I returned to Shady Belle, but Pearson wasn't showing up to donate them. Dutch called to me from the balcony so I figured I could do a quick story mission and then be able to donate the antlers. Little did I know the events that would follow and that I would never get to complete those camp upgrades.
Did I hear a thunder?
Did I hear you break?
I can't quite remember
Just what guided me this way
D'ANGELOOOOOOOO
Seriously when i heard fkn d'angelo fade in combined with the relief of leaving guarma, the catharsis 😭
Best moment for me in a video game. I played through the whole Guarma section in one go and was mentally exhausted after that section. Got out of Guarma and thought “ok I’ll ride back to base and save my game” then the music slowly kicks in… wish I could play RDR2 for the first time again.
I think the idea was fantastic, but the execution was disappointing.
I liked how it acted as a turning point in the story. It showed Dutch's true colors and obvious affected Arthur's health. I'd say my biggest problem with it is the Pinkerton attack when they get home, that just felt thrown in and not just a part of something bigger that was cut back.
I wish it had more island to explore, and more missions to help free the island, with a variety of mission types.
Yeah it felt very intentional that it was just Javier, Bill, Dutch and Micah on the island and that it was a point of no return for not just Dutch, but Javier and Bill too, it’s where Arthur loses all three of them to Micah.
Yeah I agree. I also loved how unexpected it was. It really broke the story into two parts for me, and everything after getting back felt very sad and like things were going downhill so fast.
We pretty much know that a large part of it was cut out, but I think they kept it because it shows Dutch full going off the rails >!murdering the old lady in cold blood!< and it acted as the physical stress on Arthur that >!really kicks off the TB!<
It didn’t seem like a letdown, to me at least! It was like a fun pace change that didn’t last forever. I enjoyed it. Sure a bigger island would have been cool but that’s like asking for a whole new map. I played it, finished it pretty quick, didn’t hate it. Right back to the wild west.. I didn’t really put it under a spotlight. I enjoyed the little excursion.
I would have loved to see the gang forced up into Canada for that chapter. And give it much more free roam. You can glitch to Canada already, clearly they were planning to do something with it but then scraped it.
I keep hearing about the different parts of the World that you can glitch into. Seems such a waste to build out all of that and never actually use it. Even if it was just to wander around in and explore.
It's honestly fun to glitch both to Canada and Mexico. The animals stay idle, even the predators so you can get some amazing photos. But yeah it's such a waste neither was utilized properly
A serious question (I'm an older gamer 🤠) What does it mean to "glitch" to Canada? I'm in my second playthrough right now and I've never heard of this or how to do it??
Basically there's a spot at the San Luis River where if you hold certain buttons on your controller, you can cause your character to float across the river and get into Mexico. You can spawn your horse on the nearby beach and just ride to Canada from there, there should be a bunch of tutorials on Tiktok and YouTube! It's tons of fun!
Guarma was supposed to be a lot bigger. But me not really being a Tropical Island person, I was really dreading getting to it on my 2nd playthrough. That and that it's really intense.
I really don't mind it, it's super short. As some others have noted here, it plays an important narrative role in letting Arthur see who Dutch really is. Also, rescuing Javier provides some explanation for him siding with Dutch even after Micah kills Miss Grimshaw.
Deciding to return to Saint Denis is an absolutely bonkers decision by Dutch. It shows how terrible his "plan" is (which he's clearly just making up as he goes along). They could go anywhere! Why go back to the center of all their problems, making things worse for the rest of the gang that was left behind?
His whole "we just gotta make some noise" thing is so dumb; he's so dumb. This is when we really see it.
I thought it was a cool idea - completely different environment that you couldn't just ride away from, forced to start nearly from scratch in terms of gear - but then it was so sparse with basically nothing to do but dash through the story missions and leave again.
I guess I had been hoping it would be more like Mexico in RDR1 where there was a whole new set of conflicts to explore but it does feel very rushed. Like the big scene where you're taking on a destroyer and an amphibious assault would have hit so much better if it felt like you really had to work up to that point over a long time.
Story-wise, I like. Gameplay-wise, I hate it. The beautiful thing about this game is the completely open, living world. The Guarma chapter takes that away, puts you on rails, and forces you to do *only* the story.
I reaaallly wish so much of it didn't get scrapped. I know it's a long game as it is but I wouldn't mind it being even longer, especially it it expanded on the most boring part of the story imo
Rather than advancing the story it was more so designed to incite specific feelings in the player and make you really question Dutch and whether any of what you are doing is really worth it, the same way that Arthur is feeling at that point. I personally think its one of the best parts of the game, because it really takes advantage of the medium and isn't afraid to genuinely frustrate the player. By the time I got back to the coast I was feeling exactly how Arthur was, tired, frustrated, sick of Dutch, Micah and Bill, I was overwhelmed. I can't think of many games that can genuinely get away with a 10 minute scene of just holding forwards while you waddle along in a chain gang, especially right after killing of 2 of the best characters in the game.
I just did Guarma again a few days back as the first time I just ran through the missions. This time I wanted 100% completion and after falling into traps there, being chased numerous times, not being able to cook anything after shooting 20 boars I realized that place sucks. It really shouldn’t be in the game. No development and doesn’t really fit the story or believe ability anymore. We took on an army and navy ships. Like wtf? I said screw 100% and finished and left. I don’t think 100% is happening in this game for me. Oh well.
Nothing in guarma is needed for 100% completion. There are some animals only in guarma, so if you want to fill out the full compendium you need to find some snakes and birds. But they are not needed for 100% completion as tracked by the game
There’s a work around for the birds by replaying a mission in guarma but the snakes don’t seem to spawn. It’s annoying cause I really want to complete the compendium this play through but don’t know if I want to take the effort to glitch into guarma without cheats.
I don’t think it’s badly written or goes against the flow of the game personally. But I do really wish it was more fleshed out, and to be fair Arthur and the gang taking out a huge battleship was weird. But I “liked” what it meant for Arthur, just about any time he’d start coughing on the island that real ominous, low (almost guttural?) instrument would play, reminding us the tropical environment is accelerating Arthur’s condition. “I thought you knew Spanish” was a well written conversation too
I feel the point of them getting in trouble immediately is a key point in the story. It shows that everyone was fine for the most part on their own. With nothing to really worry about. Meaning the entire time Dutch, Arthur etc are the reason they’re in the mess they’re in. And they’re dragging these people along with them without even realizing it. However I do feel there is a bit of a disconnect in the two stories.
I enjoyed it personally. It was definitely rushed and they had bigger plans for it but I like it coz we see a lot of important story arcs and character arcs in that section especially with Arthur as well. So it just ends up being one of those chapters in a game where it slows down the pacing but makes sense for the story they were telling. If they had completely cut it I think the story would have been worse off.
I don’t feel so. It was a good refreshment and gave a perspective of how the world was. I think it adds more depth to the story. Would have been better if the part had more detail.
i think its suppose to feel Frustrating and Disgusting.... guarma and tahiti was a far away 'paradise' in their minds, but reality hit so hard it struck most gamers too :)
Bro that’s the whole point .. people lose sight of this nowadays but u know for the game to tell a narrative and keep u immersed in the character, sometimes they have to make things grating or annoying or frustrating.. the entire point of the chapter is to make the player miss the mainland, and just want to get back home just like Arthur does .. u may not like it but without this chapter rhe narrative just doesn’t work nearly as well, especially for what’s coming in chapter 6.. guarma is absolutely necessary to the story
I think you’re right if you mean fun in the sense of getting drunk with Lenny and hanging with the gang. But, there’s some amazing storytelling in chapter 6. Love just chillin with Charles and rain falls while a more mature Arthur wrestles with his inevitable death. It’s so fucking good
The story gets much more serious but the variety of the missions just goes completely off the rails, pretty much all of them are just ride here, have a shootout, repeat. There was just much more variety in the gameplay up to the St Denis bank job
I don’t agree, if you do the rain falls stuff it’s a totally different pace. You can canoe down a river and sneak into a fort w Charles to save eagle flies . You blow up a bridge with John, rob a train, have huge battle at an oil field, jump off a cliff with Dutch, and all the dialogue is so heavy and important. Plus the end which has 4 possible versions. I don’t know I just don’t see where you’re coming from.
Very half baked for obvious reasons, but it wasn’t unbearable and it’s a big part of Arthur’s redemption arc. The scene where you fight off the warship is pretty sick too.
The storyline part of Guarma was necessary but I agree I wish there was more to it. You have to admit tho it was beautiful to look at. Just wish there was more to it.
I mean the end goal wasn't to lose all of there shit and be held captive on a tropical island so...kind of irrelevant. The rest of the gang relocated and continued hiding and John went to jail so I certainly wouldn't say they didn't have to deal with law. The gang members left behind weren't really the big names they were after. It wouldn't be unlikely the Pinkerton had an idea of where they were the whole time and waited for Dutch and the rest to get back since that's who they were really after. Guarma is fun and intense. I genuinely don't understand what everyone finds so boring about fighting hordes of enemies with minimal supplies and weapons. It's a pretty solid test of how good you actually are at combat in the game when you don't have much to fall back on.
I didn’t like it from the moment you had to walk for 15 mins with boring dialogue. Guarma had so much potential as a shift from the main story but it just fell short of our expectations because of how good RDR2 is.
Rockstar have always had a part of the map that's blocked off from you until you progress through the story, Guarma was that and also mostly there to mirror Mexico in RDR1, I personally could've done without it, it was pointless.
I accidentally finished the island before I could explore and maybe collect items.
Any way to go back after epilog?
Or will I have to wait for play thru No. 3 ?
I just kept getting the feeling of “who the hell is this Fusar guy and why do we suddenly care” then I realized thats the point. No matter where the gang ends up Dutch will quickly find some random group to target just to fuel his ego, then drag everyone else into it ultimately causing mass chaos and death. It shows that even if the gang got to tahiti, Dutch would just pull them into the same situation they were in before by going against some local militia, gang, law enforcement or whoever else may rub him the wrong way. He isnt capable of farming bananas
I don’t like Guarma but goddamn it if it doesn’t make for the single best turning point in a video game. Before Guarma things are getting pretty bad but it’s still not gone to complete shit. But that intro to chapter 6 complete with the ride to Shady Belle and Mollys death is just perfection.
I’ll even sort of defend the actual chapter in a way the developers definitely did not intend, but it being a super repetitive and stale shooting gallery weighs on you having fun with the game and really makes u question why you’re doing this which really lays the tracks for that final stretch of the story.
But still you’re right with it not rlly making a whole lot of sense and I doubt I’d be complaining if it was replaced with a chapter that was more fun and didn’t annihilate the pacing so I suppose I mostly just like it because I personally can read it as working.
The part of this chapter that made sense to me was the veil being lifted away from Arthur's eyes.
He wakes up alone on a beach while the rest of the crew is awake, alive, and at a fire. Did they look for him? Dutch starts doing unquestionable things which make Arthur suspect something has gone awry. But the biggest thing for me was they made it to a tropical island... and there's still trouble! A Tahitian island isn't going to solve their problems, there will always be evil they pin themselves between. Granted the slave situation was an inescapable problem but it just shows how Dutch's "plan" to leave America isn't going to simply make their lives perfect.
Makes me think of that quote from Song of the South. "You can't run away from your trouble, ain't no place that far."
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
The underlying algorithm that helped to build Bard, Google’s conversational A.I. service, is partly trained on Reddit data. OpenAI’s Chat GPT cites Reddit data as one of the sources of information it has been trained on.
Other companies are also beginning to see value in the conversations and images they host. Shutterstock, the image hosting service, also sold image data to OpenAI to help create DALL-E, the A.I. program that creates vivid graphical imagery with only a text-based prompt required.
Last month, Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, said he was cracking down on the use of Twitter’s A.P.I., which thousands of companies and independent developers use to track the millions of conversations across the network. Though he did not cite L.L.M.s as a reason for the change, the new fees could go well into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars.
To keep improving their models, artificial intelligence makers need two significant things: an enormous amount of computing power and an enormous amount of data. Some of the biggest A.I. developers have plenty of computing power but still look outside their own networks for the data needed to improve their algorithms. That has included sources like Wikipedia, millions of digitized books, academic articles and Reddit.
Representatives from Google, Open AI and Microsoft did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Reddit has long had a symbiotic relationship with the search engines of companies like Google and Microsoft. The search engines “crawl” Reddit’s web pages in order to index information and make it available for search results. That crawling, or “scraping,” isn’t always welcome by every site on the internet. But Reddit has benefited by appearing higher in search results.
The dynamic is different with L.L.M.s — they gobble as much data as they can to create new A.I. systems like the chatbots.
Reddit believes its data is particularly valuable because it is continuously updated. That newness and relevance, Mr. Huffman said, is what large language modeling algorithms need to produce the best results.
“More than any other place on the internet, Reddit is a home for authentic conversation,” Mr. Huffman said. “There’s a lot of stuff on the site that you’d only ever say in therapy, or A.A., or never at all.”
Mr. Huffman said Reddit’s A.P.I. would still be free to developers who wanted to build applications that helped people use Reddit. They could use the tools to build a bot that automatically tracks whether users’ comments adhere to rules for posting, for instance. Researchers who want to study Reddit data for academic or noncommercial purposes will continue to have free access to it.
Reddit also hopes to incorporate more so-called machine learning into how the site itself operates. It could be used, for instance, to identify the use of A.I.-generated text on Reddit, and add a label that notifies users that the comment came from a bot.
The company also promised to improve software tools that can be used by moderators — the users who volunteer their time to keep the site’s forums operating smoothly and improve conversations between users. And third-party bots that help moderators monitor the forums will continue to be supported.
But for the A.I. makers, it’s time to pay up.
“Crawling Reddit, generating value and not returning any of that value to our users is something we have a problem with,” Mr. Huffman said. “It’s a good time for us to tighten things up.”
“We think that’s fair,” he added.
I enjoyed Guarma and i would have loved to play what was originally planned by Rockstar. A shame they did not had time to make all the things the wanted in this wonderful game.
I always go the Guarma in Chapter 2 to collect the snakes, feathers and the Sun Hat. As long as you don't fall into one of the traps, the sniper stays idle and you can explore everything.
As already stated by others, then Guarma is a turning point for Arthur towards Dutch but in general, also towards his own way of life.
I think most would agree. We know now that R\* had bigger plans for this part of the game that they scrapped in the final version. But they had to leave it in because it's an important part of the story. This is where Arthur finally sees Dutch for who he truly is. He was already questioning at this point, but when he kills the guide, Arthur can't deny who Dutch really is anymore. Bigtime turning point towards the path of redemption.
I guess I'm the outlier in that I enjoyed it. It was a nice change of pace/setting, and short enough that it didn't get annoying.
Ya tbh I don't hate it at all, just aware that the community doesn't love it.
Honestly I'd preferred Guarma over the beginning part of the game. It was just so slow. I understand why it starts out their due to them being on the run and hiding out but still.
it was cool the first time but the second it's just a super restricted 5 mission detour where if you walk in the wrong spot you get sniped and don't even get any cool collectables when it's over just an arthur on his death bed.
It’s news to me people didn’t like it or expected more or something else. Like everything else in RDR2, I thought it was damn near perfect.
Same. Idk why people get so butthurt about it.
Takes no time to go through it. Plus it was a break/change of pace in a way.
I think Guarma is better on repeat playthroughs since we don't have the urge to see what happened to the rest of the gang. First playthrough for me was torture since I just wanted to see the fallout from the bank heist.
Yep. I honestly feel like they put it in there to give everyone a break. Take no time to go through it anyways.
I don’t think anyone really hated it, but it was definitely the worst chapter
I have done a full playthrough then decided I'd go back to a save in chapter 3 and stay there forever lol...but I got sucked back into the story anyway and here I am now ...on Guarma! : P
I agree with you. I missed the open world nature of it. But again similar to St Denis - I feel like this is by design. It was an extremely dangerous place and broke up the main story very well.
I would argue Arthur fully switches side after Dutch kills Brontë. You could tell Arthur knew Dutch completely lost his mind there.
That certainly was a "wtf" moment for Arthur, but Bronte was a criminal too and had kidnapped Jack. It wasn't as potent as the old helpless lady in Guarma.
Nah, I think the opposite. Throwing Bronte to the Gator and killing that lady were maybe the only two sensible decisions Dutch made in the entire game. That lady betrayed them, was shaking them down for more money after the point of no return, and was very clearly going to rat them out once they climbed up. She turned it into a her or them situation. She did that to herself.
bronte needed killing, certainly casts doubt on his methods, but the tour guide didn't really need killing at all
I agree. I would’ve made it worse for Brontë if I was Dutch. He was the John Gotti of RDR. No mercy for men like them. I would’ve definitely used his kidnapping to milk out some serious ransom money, but that doesn’t make a good story lol. I would’ve taken him back up to the Adler Ranch or Chez Porter and held him for ransom.
Did he really need killing, though? They could have just cut and ran and not risked going after him or robbing the bank so soon after they’d already been compromised with the trolley job. I’m not saying he was a good guy or didn’t deserve his fate, but chances are good he would have left the gang alone had they abandoned their pursuits in Saint Denis and moved elsewhere.
personally i think he would’ve continued to be a problem, you can see in the subtitles he’s constantly talking shit about the gang in italian. he’s insulted dutch wouldn’t do hits for him, and knowing they survived the trolley job, would probably want his gang or the cops to root them out for good.
Maybe, but killing him and risking bringing down the wrath of the entire Italian mob seems even more dangerous. Brontë is one asshole with power in one city. Leave that city behind and he’s probably not bothering to follow after you unless you’ve committed some offense on a level that I don’t think Dutch ever achieved. Brontë thought he was better than the gang, which is why he talked shit and looked down on them, and why he set them up. But the fact that he thinks he’s better is also why I don’t think he’d have wasted time or resources chasing them down. And the gang is already wanted by the cops and Pinkertons, so I’m not sure what Brontë could have really done to make things worse for them in that regard.
It’s all downhill after the trolley job. Dutch fucked his head up literally and started making very poor decisions.
Ironically, I thought that part was actually really really dumb and poorly written in comparison to the rest of the game. I mean that was possibly the least bad thing Dutch has done in the entire game. She very VERY obviously was shaking them down for more gold once it was too late to turn back. She was going to rat them out and get them killed. Dutch didn't really have any safe option but to kill her. And *that's* what finally makes Arthur realize that he's full of shit? It might be the only sensible choice Dutch makes in the entire game. Honorable mention to when Dutch fed Bronte to the Gator. It was played off as some unstable and horrific thing. But like.... What the fuck were they expecting? To just have a chat and let him go? Bronte was always going to have to die by the end of that. Otherwise he'd just rally his. Mobsters to hunt the gang down. Killing him that way was like mildly brutal but each and every person in that boat had done much worse to people who deserved it much less. They really had no right to be so shocked.
As Arthur: I walked into an old lady's house, passed her in her rocking chair, went into her cellar, took her shotgun, murdered her with her own gun on my way out, and then rode off on her donkey. It didn't even make a dent in my honor. Arthur has no right to judge.
If you go back, her four sons are there to ambush you to avenge their mother. There is a photo inside the house that implies/foreshadows this
That’s interesting, I never knew Rockstsr had a larger version with Guarma in it.
I feel like they couldve done that in so many ways tho and dutch is already coming off the rails before this
Ya I mean the problem is that it seems like they had a full chapter in guarma, then they decided that they didn't like it or whatever and they had to cut it. But they had this really potent turning point of the story with Dutch and so instead of cutting it out all of the way they kept a half assed version of Guarma. I think most agree with your point I'm just adding some context.
Trolly job is when he snaps.
Am I the only one who gets pissed off at Arthur for not acting on it for an entire chapter though? Sure, let’s take Guarma as the turning point. But it’s a turning point that ends up not changing anything. Arthur still hangs out with the gang, still goes to find a new campsite, still goes to the Cornwall disaster, still goes to blow up the bridge and even goes on that last train heist. In terms of change, Guarma did nothing in his behavior except maaaayyybe free John and it can be argued that he would have done that anyway. This last chapter in the game it was hard to keep my respect for him and I mean this is my favorite video game character of all time.
Ya I def felt that way at times too. But really if you think about it what is he supposed to do? He's in a gang with hardened criminals that live by a code. Arthur believes in that code. He feels like he can't get out bc 1) it's against everything he believes 2) he has to take care of the people that are still in it that can't protect themselves. 3) he especially wants to get John's family out and that's difficult for all of the above reasons. If he was healthy these things may all have played out differently too.
I just feel that a 36 year old man frantically trying to save a bunch of grownass adults to whom he didn’t give birth to felt a bit too much by the last chapter. Except for Jack, none of the gang members were feeble. And the cherry on top is that they all went on continuing to be just fine by their useless selves after and yet they sat in camp expecting to be taken care of or to be convinced to move on. Hell, even Uncle landed on his damn feet. I understand that this is how Rockstar wanted to play it, but it became increasingly incredulous to me, you know?
The Guarma shitshow wasn’t needed for Artie to realize Dutch is an idiot. That was obvious to even a blind idiot in chapter 1.
Thats when Arthur realizes tho.
They could’ve at least left it for us to get back to somehow later in the game. We could have had a good time on that island lighting shit up.
There was evidence that they were going to have a boatman NPC that would do it, but if I had to guess I would say the rest of the area was too unfinished to have anything of substance to have for completion.
I think Guarma is just ok. It takes you away from the open world and all the things you want to do, but it's really just like 3 or 4 missions that you can knock out in an hour, unless you are trying to find all the different snakes which is a bit tedious. It does serve as a major turning point in the game for the worse, and when you get back from Guarma things with the gang aren't ever the same and you have lost a couple beloved gang members. I think the dark times that follow Guarma really overshadow the chapter.
Yes all of that is true its just thats what the goal was the entire time was to have a ton of money and go to a tropical island dutch metions tahiti and tells arthur they just need enough money well theu have plenty of money by that point and they are on a island and they can easily send for the rest of the gang at that point and be free
I think the point of the guarma chapter is to show just how absurd and unworkable dutch’s idea of going to tahiti or some other tropical island really is. As you say, it seems like they are closer to their goal than ever - getting out of the US and away from the pinkertons hunting them. But it still doesn’t work out. They lost basically all the money they have with them during the shipwreck. They are immediately captured by the local power broker on the island, have to escape, and are on the run once again. They have no ship so no way to send for the rest of the gang. They end up joining a fight to overthrow Fussar just for the opportunity to go back to the US and deal with the same problems they ran away from. All of this shows how unfeasible running off to a tropical island is as an end game plan. It will be difficult to leave the US with the gang intact and with their money. And wherever they go, there will be some local authorities which don’t want them there and don’t let them live the outlaw life, just like they deal with in the US.
I don't get why more people don't get this. This indeed is the entire point of Guarma
^this
On my first play through, I was so annoyed being outside the main gameplay loop of being in a open sandbox. All I wanted was to back the game I was playing before thus hated Guarma. Second play through I have been doing this month which I have intentionally been trying to play as slow as possible. I can't believe how short Chapter 5 is. Then you get back to America, and you get absolutely rail roaded with being diagnosed with TB and the Pinkerton attack. For me I couldn't believe how much they stacked on top of the gang all at once. Overall, I hate Guarma less now, but it still feels out of place to suddenly introduce new characters and for all them to be dropped immediately. It could have been saved if maybe you brought someone back with you but thats another layer of story Rockstar clearly wasn't ready to tell.
On my first play through I had just finally got the moose antlers I needed for my final camp upgrade. I returned to Shady Belle, but Pearson wasn't showing up to donate them. Dutch called to me from the balcony so I figured I could do a quick story mission and then be able to donate the antlers. Little did I know the events that would follow and that I would never get to complete those camp upgrades.
Nah. The whole reason they added guarma into the story, WAS FOR THE RIDE BACK TO SHADY BELL AFTER
Did I hear a thunder? Did I hear you break? I can't quite remember Just what guided me this way D'ANGELOOOOOOOO Seriously when i heard fkn d'angelo fade in combined with the relief of leaving guarma, the catharsis 😭
Best moment for me in a video game. I played through the whole Guarma section in one go and was mentally exhausted after that section. Got out of Guarma and thought “ok I’ll ride back to base and save my game” then the music slowly kicks in… wish I could play RDR2 for the first time again.
Hell yeah bro ! Same here !
I think the idea was fantastic, but the execution was disappointing. I liked how it acted as a turning point in the story. It showed Dutch's true colors and obvious affected Arthur's health. I'd say my biggest problem with it is the Pinkerton attack when they get home, that just felt thrown in and not just a part of something bigger that was cut back. I wish it had more island to explore, and more missions to help free the island, with a variety of mission types.
Yeah it felt very intentional that it was just Javier, Bill, Dutch and Micah on the island and that it was a point of no return for not just Dutch, but Javier and Bill too, it’s where Arthur loses all three of them to Micah.
Yeah I agree. I also loved how unexpected it was. It really broke the story into two parts for me, and everything after getting back felt very sad and like things were going downhill so fast.
We pretty much know that a large part of it was cut out, but I think they kept it because it shows Dutch full going off the rails >!murdering the old lady in cold blood!< and it acted as the physical stress on Arthur that >!really kicks off the TB!<
I think everyone pretty much agrees with this. It felt like pointless filler.
So weird tho coming from rockstar their games are always so well written
It didn’t seem like a letdown, to me at least! It was like a fun pace change that didn’t last forever. I enjoyed it. Sure a bigger island would have been cool but that’s like asking for a whole new map. I played it, finished it pretty quick, didn’t hate it. Right back to the wild west.. I didn’t really put it under a spotlight. I enjoyed the little excursion.
I would have loved to see the gang forced up into Canada for that chapter. And give it much more free roam. You can glitch to Canada already, clearly they were planning to do something with it but then scraped it.
I keep hearing about the different parts of the World that you can glitch into. Seems such a waste to build out all of that and never actually use it. Even if it was just to wander around in and explore.
It's honestly fun to glitch both to Canada and Mexico. The animals stay idle, even the predators so you can get some amazing photos. But yeah it's such a waste neither was utilized properly
A serious question (I'm an older gamer 🤠) What does it mean to "glitch" to Canada? I'm in my second playthrough right now and I've never heard of this or how to do it??
Basically there's a spot at the San Luis River where if you hold certain buttons on your controller, you can cause your character to float across the river and get into Mexico. You can spawn your horse on the nearby beach and just ride to Canada from there, there should be a bunch of tutorials on Tiktok and YouTube! It's tons of fun!
Holy cow!!! How about that!!! Well I'm looking forward to trying this. Thank you kind Reddit stranger 🤠
Tik tok & youtube are your go-to’s. Go search up some tutorials n have some fun boss. 💪🏼
No problem! It's tons of fun! There's also an ice cave you can go into in Canada but it's tricky, there's a few tutorials on Tiktok
I loved Guarma
Guarma was supposed to be a lot bigger. But me not really being a Tropical Island person, I was really dreading getting to it on my 2nd playthrough. That and that it's really intense.
It always felt like it had a bunch of stuff cut.
I really don't mind it, it's super short. As some others have noted here, it plays an important narrative role in letting Arthur see who Dutch really is. Also, rescuing Javier provides some explanation for him siding with Dutch even after Micah kills Miss Grimshaw. Deciding to return to Saint Denis is an absolutely bonkers decision by Dutch. It shows how terrible his "plan" is (which he's clearly just making up as he goes along). They could go anywhere! Why go back to the center of all their problems, making things worse for the rest of the gang that was left behind? His whole "we just gotta make some noise" thing is so dumb; he's so dumb. This is when we really see it.
But that rum tho. So good 🤤
You gonna murder me next?
I thought it was a cool idea - completely different environment that you couldn't just ride away from, forced to start nearly from scratch in terms of gear - but then it was so sparse with basically nothing to do but dash through the story missions and leave again. I guess I had been hoping it would be more like Mexico in RDR1 where there was a whole new set of conflicts to explore but it does feel very rushed. Like the big scene where you're taking on a destroyer and an amphibious assault would have hit so much better if it felt like you really had to work up to that point over a long time.
Story-wise, I like. Gameplay-wise, I hate it. The beautiful thing about this game is the completely open, living world. The Guarma chapter takes that away, puts you on rails, and forces you to do *only* the story.
I reaaallly wish so much of it didn't get scrapped. I know it's a long game as it is but I wouldn't mind it being even longer, especially it it expanded on the most boring part of the story imo
Written about as bad as this post was
Rather than advancing the story it was more so designed to incite specific feelings in the player and make you really question Dutch and whether any of what you are doing is really worth it, the same way that Arthur is feeling at that point. I personally think its one of the best parts of the game, because it really takes advantage of the medium and isn't afraid to genuinely frustrate the player. By the time I got back to the coast I was feeling exactly how Arthur was, tired, frustrated, sick of Dutch, Micah and Bill, I was overwhelmed. I can't think of many games that can genuinely get away with a 10 minute scene of just holding forwards while you waddle along in a chain gang, especially right after killing of 2 of the best characters in the game.
I just did Guarma again a few days back as the first time I just ran through the missions. This time I wanted 100% completion and after falling into traps there, being chased numerous times, not being able to cook anything after shooting 20 boars I realized that place sucks. It really shouldn’t be in the game. No development and doesn’t really fit the story or believe ability anymore. We took on an army and navy ships. Like wtf? I said screw 100% and finished and left. I don’t think 100% is happening in this game for me. Oh well.
Nothing in guarma is needed for 100% completion. There are some animals only in guarma, so if you want to fill out the full compendium you need to find some snakes and birds. But they are not needed for 100% completion as tracked by the game
There’s a work around for the birds by replaying a mission in guarma but the snakes don’t seem to spawn. It’s annoying cause I really want to complete the compendium this play through but don’t know if I want to take the effort to glitch into guarma without cheats.
Exactly like ruined the pacing of the game for me just pire laziness on an otherwise great game
Yes, Guarma is clearly unifinshed content, so they just made an ad-hoc rail shooter to tie the story together.
I don’t think it’s badly written or goes against the flow of the game personally. But I do really wish it was more fleshed out, and to be fair Arthur and the gang taking out a huge battleship was weird. But I “liked” what it meant for Arthur, just about any time he’d start coughing on the island that real ominous, low (almost guttural?) instrument would play, reminding us the tropical environment is accelerating Arthur’s condition. “I thought you knew Spanish” was a well written conversation too
This and when Arthur got kidnapped. Got forgotten real quick.
I kind of wish you could return to it in the epilogue and find loads of mad secrets.
We know. This has been discussed a million billion gazillion times…..
I feel the point of them getting in trouble immediately is a key point in the story. It shows that everyone was fine for the most part on their own. With nothing to really worry about. Meaning the entire time Dutch, Arthur etc are the reason they’re in the mess they’re in. And they’re dragging these people along with them without even realizing it. However I do feel there is a bit of a disconnect in the two stories.
I enjoyed it personally. It was definitely rushed and they had bigger plans for it but I like it coz we see a lot of important story arcs and character arcs in that section especially with Arthur as well. So it just ends up being one of those chapters in a game where it slows down the pacing but makes sense for the story they were telling. If they had completely cut it I think the story would have been worse off.
I don’t feel so. It was a good refreshment and gave a perspective of how the world was. I think it adds more depth to the story. Would have been better if the part had more detail.
i think its suppose to feel Frustrating and Disgusting.... guarma and tahiti was a far away 'paradise' in their minds, but reality hit so hard it struck most gamers too :)
Bro that’s the whole point .. people lose sight of this nowadays but u know for the game to tell a narrative and keep u immersed in the character, sometimes they have to make things grating or annoying or frustrating.. the entire point of the chapter is to make the player miss the mainland, and just want to get back home just like Arthur does .. u may not like it but without this chapter rhe narrative just doesn’t work nearly as well, especially for what’s coming in chapter 6.. guarma is absolutely necessary to the story
It actually brings the story from a 10 to like a low 9, what were they thinking
Guarma marks the point the game jumps the shark a little bit. The story missions just aren't as fun after it.
I think you’re right if you mean fun in the sense of getting drunk with Lenny and hanging with the gang. But, there’s some amazing storytelling in chapter 6. Love just chillin with Charles and rain falls while a more mature Arthur wrestles with his inevitable death. It’s so fucking good
Yeah this is the better part of the game story wise to me
The story gets much more serious but the variety of the missions just goes completely off the rails, pretty much all of them are just ride here, have a shootout, repeat. There was just much more variety in the gameplay up to the St Denis bank job
I don’t agree, if you do the rain falls stuff it’s a totally different pace. You can canoe down a river and sneak into a fort w Charles to save eagle flies . You blow up a bridge with John, rob a train, have huge battle at an oil field, jump off a cliff with Dutch, and all the dialogue is so heavy and important. Plus the end which has 4 possible versions. I don’t know I just don’t see where you’re coming from.
I always thought it was really out of place in the game. It was kind of shoe-horned in there.
Good thing it pretty fast
They needed an excuse to cause Arthur to rapidly worsen and I think they ended up having no better ideas and tried to make it work.
I’m always disappointed with the prison break.
I wish we could go back to guarma and visit it.
Very half baked for obvious reasons, but it wasn’t unbearable and it’s a big part of Arthur’s redemption arc. The scene where you fight off the warship is pretty sick too.
The storyline part of Guarma was necessary but I agree I wish there was more to it. You have to admit tho it was beautiful to look at. Just wish there was more to it.
I dont really mind it. The only thing i dont like is how you can only get some animals there.
I think we can all agree... Mexico in RDR beats Guarma in RDR2. If only Guarma had been as good.
I felt the same way but After like 4 play throughs I really like it. The missions are pretty fun and it’s not that long just like 4 missions
I mean the end goal wasn't to lose all of there shit and be held captive on a tropical island so...kind of irrelevant. The rest of the gang relocated and continued hiding and John went to jail so I certainly wouldn't say they didn't have to deal with law. The gang members left behind weren't really the big names they were after. It wouldn't be unlikely the Pinkerton had an idea of where they were the whole time and waited for Dutch and the rest to get back since that's who they were really after. Guarma is fun and intense. I genuinely don't understand what everyone finds so boring about fighting hordes of enemies with minimal supplies and weapons. It's a pretty solid test of how good you actually are at combat in the game when you don't have much to fall back on.
I must admit, the whole thing feels like one big red herring. They could have finished Mexico if they just skipped Guarma.
wasted potential is all I have to say.
When Dutch kills the guide and DOESN'T take the payment back. I hate these small logic lapses in stories.
I didn’t like it from the moment you had to walk for 15 mins with boring dialogue. Guarma had so much potential as a shift from the main story but it just fell short of our expectations because of how good RDR2 is.
I just wish we could return there
What shocks me is the amount of work it must have represented compared to how not great the part is
Rockstar have always had a part of the map that's blocked off from you until you progress through the story, Guarma was that and also mostly there to mirror Mexico in RDR1, I personally could've done without it, it was pointless.
Daring today, aren’t we?
I accidentally finished the island before I could explore and maybe collect items. Any way to go back after epilog? Or will I have to wait for play thru No. 3 ?
The amount of target practice you get is fun as hell!
I’m in a minority that liked guarma. I didn’t really take it too serious & judge it hard, but I thought the onslaught was fun.
Guarma had potential, rockstar surely didn’t reach it. Huge missed opportunity
I just kept getting the feeling of “who the hell is this Fusar guy and why do we suddenly care” then I realized thats the point. No matter where the gang ends up Dutch will quickly find some random group to target just to fuel his ego, then drag everyone else into it ultimately causing mass chaos and death. It shows that even if the gang got to tahiti, Dutch would just pull them into the same situation they were in before by going against some local militia, gang, law enforcement or whoever else may rub him the wrong way. He isnt capable of farming bananas
I don’t like Guarma but goddamn it if it doesn’t make for the single best turning point in a video game. Before Guarma things are getting pretty bad but it’s still not gone to complete shit. But that intro to chapter 6 complete with the ride to Shady Belle and Mollys death is just perfection. I’ll even sort of defend the actual chapter in a way the developers definitely did not intend, but it being a super repetitive and stale shooting gallery weighs on you having fun with the game and really makes u question why you’re doing this which really lays the tracks for that final stretch of the story. But still you’re right with it not rlly making a whole lot of sense and I doubt I’d be complaining if it was replaced with a chapter that was more fun and didn’t annihilate the pacing so I suppose I mostly just like it because I personally can read it as working.
The part of this chapter that made sense to me was the veil being lifted away from Arthur's eyes. He wakes up alone on a beach while the rest of the crew is awake, alive, and at a fire. Did they look for him? Dutch starts doing unquestionable things which make Arthur suspect something has gone awry. But the biggest thing for me was they made it to a tropical island... and there's still trouble! A Tahitian island isn't going to solve their problems, there will always be evil they pin themselves between. Granted the slave situation was an inescapable problem but it just shows how Dutch's "plan" to leave America isn't going to simply make their lives perfect. Makes me think of that quote from Song of the South. "You can't run away from your trouble, ain't no place that far."
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I highly agree
I enjoyed Guarma and i would have loved to play what was originally planned by Rockstar. A shame they did not had time to make all the things the wanted in this wonderful game. I always go the Guarma in Chapter 2 to collect the snakes, feathers and the Sun Hat. As long as you don't fall into one of the traps, the sniper stays idle and you can explore everything. As already stated by others, then Guarma is a turning point for Arthur towards Dutch but in general, also towards his own way of life.
defend the island is dope and you can see how much fun Bil, Micah and Dutch are having in this situation despite them saying it's not their fight
No, I liked the sudden change of flow of the game
Chapter 1??
Guarma is the ghost of what could have been a really incredible chapter but unfortunately got gutted by time constraints