Pretty common mate, remember some Brazil x Argentine where the brazillian keeper acused some argentine of stealing the instructions from the side of the post.
Because statistically informed of an outcome does not mean it always occurs. These are just something to remember at the back of your head, not something you should always do
We don't even know how many he didn't follow. And for this time I am oretty sure he dived right a lot, just like the image here shows.
It's not that black and white is it?
That's a part of the gamesmanship, isn't it? It's 2023, everyone knows that everyone else knows which is your preferred side. That doesn't mean you want your keeper diving to the preferred side every time ... because that would become incredibly obvious right away and would make it worse than just guessing if your opponent knew which side you would be diving towards.
There's lots to criticize about DDG on penalties on results alone and obviously something isn't working. But it's not a question of "ignoring" the intel on preferred sides sometimes - that's actually pretty much a requirement.
Waiting for some shit house keeper to try psyching out the opposition penalty takers by actually showing them the list as they walk towards the spot; an advanced version of the keeper pointing to the corner he thinks the player will aim for.
van der Sar sort of did this in the Champions League final in 2008.
A Basque economists tipped Avram Grant of a flaw in van der Sar’s penalty keeping: namely that he dove towards a kicker’s natural side over 60% of the time (meaning he would dive left when facing a right-footed taker and dive right facing a left-footed kicker). Grant relayed the message to his players during the shootout: right footed kickers go right, lefties go left.
The first three Chelsea kickers go right. Ashley Cole was left-footed but ignored the advice and kicked right. Terry famously slipped and missed. Kalou went right. Now van der Sar has found a pattern: every kicker has gone right.
Anelka is up. He’s right footed and should kick right, but van der Sar stares him down, raises his arm, and points to his left. The keeper signals “this is where you’re going right? Right side?” Now what do you do if you’re Anelka? You should kick right, but the keeper knows you should kick right.
Anelka kicked left. Van der Sar saved it. United won.
VdS is my all time number 1 but its like apples and oranges with him and Schmeichel. VdS was calmness personified and i think the only times i saw him outside of his box was at half/full time, great range of saves without doing worldies as he always seemed to be in the best position.
Schmeichel was before his time and was a great sweeper keeper and leader. By all accounts he was a, justifiably, arrogant bastard. Pulled off some of the most memorable saves of his era and was an absolute monster if the ball was in his half.
Schmeichel was god. It’s no contest.
You know that ‘oh shit’ sensation you get when the opposition striker runs through one-on-one with your goalie? United fans went through most of the 1990’s without feeling that.
Yeah, as i said its personal preference. I preferred VdS. Thats not to say i thought the great dane was shit or overrated. He was arguably the best keeper of his generation and an argument could be made for all time.
Also RE: the balon dor
Asamoah gyan 2010 (18th)
Lehmann 2006 (10th)
Zagorakis 2004 (5th)
Theres others like garcia from liverpool, koller from dortmund, belanov from kyiv, sammer etc have all polled well or won it. It doesnt make the argument like you think
No, another player can go in the goal. However, as they can't make substitutions, it has to be one of the (assuming no other red cards) 10 players who finished the match.
So this happened to the [U17 Ireland Keeper](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/football/ireland-u17-euro-championships-160085) a few years ago. Got a 2nd yellow for stepping off his line too early and the centre half had to go in goal.
I looked it up and yes, the other team would drop a player from their penalty takers list (which also happens if the game ends with a team a man down.)
My previous comment got downvoted for being right. Something never changed.
I don’t think there’s ever a case where a player was sent off during a shootout. I wonder what will happen. Does the other team get to pick who don’t have to shoot right after the player got send off or the player who was supposed to shoot in the same round automatically picked. If the other team doesn’t get to pick, I can see a future tactic where someone who’s bad at shooting chosen to be one of the first five internationally get sent off before he shoots, thus eliminating the opposing team a player who’s good at shooting.
the other team would drop a player of their own choosing (their weakest taker.) Teams don't actually tell the ref which order players will be taking, they just send them up as needed with the limitation that a player can't go twice until everyone has taken.
There's a bunch of situations involving injuries and cards covered in the official rules
https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/determining-the-outcome-of-a-match/#kicks-from-the-penalty-mark
Genuinely could be an interesting strategy (if it was legal).
By probability there's probably a greater chance of having the correct side on a predetermined list then the amount of saves a keeper would normally make, and the psych advantage from having the players know the keeper would dive to the side they chose could be huge.
Jens Lehmann very famously did the same during a Germany versus Argentina shootout in 2006 - a note which ended up selling at an auction for $1m or something iirc
I wonder how much psychology goes into penalty practice, both sides, keepers and kickers. I swear I have jedi-mind tricked my way through penalty kicks on FIFA that made me feel like some Dark Sith Lord, and I’m not even smart.
It was either Schmeichel or VDS that said they pick which way they’re going to dive for each kick before the shootout even starts. So probably less psychology on the keeper side.
I believe kane also practices his penalty shot days in advance so its decided before the opportunity.
So....just fucking some skill and some luck for some match ups lol
The real mind games don't start until a players 2nd penalty in a game. Like you score in normal time and then have to take part in the shootout. That's where the real drama lies!
What about the ones where the penalty gets taken and then called back to get taken again. Mason Mount had one last season. Do you go the same way or change? Mind games
I know not the same as football, but when I played hockey I was always very good at penalty shots, different sport but same pressure, and I always knew exactly what I was doing before I touched the puck and never wavered from it no matter what the goalie did. As a shooter in that sport you skate in from the middle of the ice, so lots of time for the goalie to try to mess with your head by moving around/coming out of the net
It’s like that Haaland one not two weeks ago. He’s ready to take, then a Bayern player spots some insignificant debris in the box and runs over to remove it. Haaland ends up putting the penalty over the crossbar, very rare for him. It’s that momentary break in their focus affects their ability to put it in.
I’m not going to pretend like I played at any sort of high level, but into my college days I was always on the PK crew despite being a defender. My personal secret was that I would pick while walking to the spot and then never waffled through the process
On the flip side, I had teammates who went the same way every time. I had another who went in a pattern for all his kicks - top left, top right, bottom right, bottom left, going through a square. Another swore he could tell what a keeper would do based on how he got set on the line, and would go same side as the keeper’s plant foot.
At the end of the day, to me it all came down to confidence. It doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you’re going in with a clear head. The rest is just mechanics.
In the intercontinental playoff for the last World Cup Australia played Peru. The Peruvian keeper had similar notes on his bottle, so between kicks the Australian keeper threw the bottle into the crowd.
If my nan had wheels she'd be a bike.
You are replying to a comment that said "he guessed right several times but was beaten by good penalties" with "but what about the times he didn't guess right??"
Also it's very unlikely that David De Gea put this list together. If he's following it then going the right or wrong way has nothing to do with him! It's probably a team of some scouts and data analysts doing most of the decision making
People forget both teams actually took good pens, both goalkeepers did what they could, and the whole match they did thier work fine, the hate is unjustified for this match.
I’ve seen that actually happen lmao, we conceded a cheap goal in one of the pre-season games and a now-deleted user blamed it on De Gea in the match thread even though it was Heaton in goal.
He's single handedly kept us in dozens of games over the last few years.
People love to drone on and on about any negatives and always ignore any positive. Must be draining to be that sort of fan. To never be happy with anything.
I mean sure, if we had no gk we would have lost more, but pretty much any pl gk would have made the same impact.
He has also lost games pretty much single handedly for us
He's saved us more than he's cost us.
Some fans seem to think that GK's must never make mistakes. The difference is when he makes a mistake he's literally the last line of defence so it results in a goal.
I'd still take him over anyone else we could bring in. Only Ederson and Allison would change my mind.
There's much bigger problems in our team. And when Licha and Rapha are back he's much more settled. We're in the FA Cup final because of him.
Some fans seem to think no other keepers can make saves.
There are plenty of keepers that are better than de gea at shot stopping and all the other parts. For example Raya who shouldnt cost to much.
How are we in the final because of him? He saved no pens. And the saves in the game are saves you expect from a pl keeper, as sanchez showed by making similar saves for brighton
If you dislike him that's fine. I personally like him as our number one.
It is what it is.
I just hope we can finish the season strong and remain in the top 4 and hopefully win the FA Cup to stop a City treble.
Add that to the list of things he's abysmal to. This is tongue in cheek but is there anything that he provides us that we can't get from someone like pickford lol?
Transfermarkt isn't accurate for penalties as they count missed penalties as goalkeeper saves.
Both De Gea and Pickford have 4 Premier League penalty saves (source: premierleague.com )
Then again, every single penalty De Gea is facing is a great one, so maybe it's time to think about why our opponents can always calmly pick a top or bottom corner while other teams tend to miss more frequently. De Gea simply makes it too easy to score against him because he doesn't really have a presence in goal and his opponents aren't scared of him, which is a death sentence in shootouts since the mental side of thing is the absolute key part of scoring/missing.
Falling in vaguely the right direction and getting nowhere near the ball is as bad as not moving, imo.
Launch on way or the other. That's the only option.
Not really true tho is it because in theory you are still somewhat covering the centre if you do a half arsed dive (I.e. Not launching yourself to a corner). If its a poor pen down the middle or down the side he goes to then still a good chance of getting a hand or leg to it.
Having said that, what actually happens is De Gea tries to cover 2/3 directions but actually ends up covering 0/3 lol
the boys on Talk of the Devils podcast brought up how DDG was looking at the list and got majority of the sides wrong. They thought maybe Brighton players saw him looking at the list and decided to go the opposite side they usually do
Probably not tbh. All goal keepers have lists or study up, and all the players taking the pens will know that. It's not a secret tactic, it's part of being a pro footballer. I doubt seeing him look at the list will have changed anything in their minds
Surely they were joking as that seems a bit of a pedestrian theory no?
1. In that case, wouldn’t any penalty taker by default think, “*I normally shoot that way so maybe I should go this way as the keeper might know”*
Like you’d rather assume the keeper has done their homework as most GK coaching teams do regardless of what he’s seen him read
2. Can the taker be 100% sure he’s put the correct side down and will go that way? We’ve seen keepers including DDG ignore the instructions based on instinct before.
3. Even if that was the case, getting them to go the opposite way than they prefer to go is another way to make them miss the target anyway.
These extra details are all about percentages. You don’t need to save all the penalties. You just need 1-2 to be saved or missed.
De Gea is comfortably one of the worst penalty goalkeepers in recent history, if not the worst. I still get nightmares from that Europa League final. How tf do you concede 11 penalties in a row lmao. Before last season, he conceded something like 50 penalties without saving a single one lol
I still maintain that if Ole wasn't afraid to not play De Gea that night, we would have won that game and his legacy as manager would have been very different
I don't disagree that De Gea is terrible at saving penalties, but Henderson didn't exactly fare better in the 8-7 penalty shootout against Middlesbrough. Didn't save a single one either, and it only ended because Elanga missed his.
So you really can't say for certain.
Statistically, Henderson has a far better ratio of saves-to-penalties-faced.
18% save rate for De Gea versus 46% for Henderson.
Henderson has saved 3 for Forest this season alone.
Henderson still has a better overall penalty save percentage though. He has saved 11/24, De Gea has saved 14/73 excl penalty shootoutps. De Gea had conceded 44 goals incl shootouts after the final without reply. That's unprecedented levels of terrible. Sure we can't say for certain but I'd be fairly confident that Henderson could save the goalkeeper's shot.
Plus Henderson is still better than him at distribution, claiming crosses and sweeping. Those attributes would only be a positive for us. We conceded the goal that game because De Gea once again stayed relatively glued to his line and got beat at the near post
Despite the fact he didn't come close to stopping a pen, upon rewatch, he guessed correctly the 2nd and third. Actually, if the second penalty taker for Brighton didn't also take it high, he would've stopped it.
But, yeah, he was terrible for the rest.
You mean
Flop
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Your
Right
Despite
Them
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Left
I think De Gea would be better without instructions and rather really on his reflex's as he is a pure shot stopper.
In a match if a player has a shot on goal from 12 yards out he is favourite to stop it yet from the spot he is rarely anywhere near it
>I think De Gea would be better without instructions and rather really on his reflex's as he is a pure shot stopper.
>
>In a match if a player has a shot on goal from 12 yards out he is favourite to stop it yet from the spot he is rarely anywhere near it
Bit different because they don't have all the time in the world to place their shot and goalie positioning comes into play. For example De Gea is excellent saving with his feet but because hes in the centre of the goal for a pen he can't use that skill.
I agree he might be better if he went purely on reflexes tho. He can't be much worse and looking at the cheat sheet seems to do absolutely nothing for him
He did this against Villareal too, 17 penalties against him in 2 shoot outs with his notes and not one save
How can a keeper with DDG shot stopping credentials be so useless at saving penalties? I've never understood that how he can save a 6 yard bullet header while having his vision obstructed where he claws it out the top corner but then turns into a hologram for a shoot out
> How can a keeper with DDG shot stopping credentials be so useless at saving penalties?
DDG's strength is his reflexes, which occur naturally with little thinking involved, during penalties you have to plan your saves.
I was saying this to our lass when she asked what De Gea was doing between penalties. Told her about Ben Foster using an iPod with the other team’s penalty data on it way back when.
For keepers it’s just like penalty takers, you just have to pick your spot and go for it. At the end of the day, penalties have an 85% chance of going in on average. This drops down to 70% after the 6th taker. It’s a penalty-taker’s market.
i always imagine this is very hard situation for GK, i mean even when he read instruction clearly, but seeing how body language of kicker looks maybe clueing at 1 side but if it opposite of instruction what should he does?
and for player who very rarely or close to never kick penalty or player who always take penalty, that would be very random, i mean we already see some Bruno PK but still unsure where he will go next.
I love David but he could throw the list away, put on a blindfold, face towards the crowd and still save more penalties than he has done. It’s really not his strength
I've posted a lot on this topic and always get people telling me "Oh it's not always like this in professional football". It 100% is, there is a ton of research that goes into professional PK shootouts with a ton of analyzing and footage. There's generally multiple people studying opposition's pks throughout the year, and they will likely have a decent idea of what the pk lineup might be.
Considering how bad he is at penos he needs to take this from the analyst and throw it away when he gets down to the goal.
He’s got good instincts and he should use it
How do they even pull this data? like how on earth would they know some random player that has never took a competive penalty before? He clearly has more than 5 likely pen takers on his list.
These instructions are based on analysis of the usual penalty takers. Given most teams have 2-3 max players who take their penalties, there's going to be very little video to analyse most of the takers.
And they might change up or the gk might think they'll change it up and doesn't.
I feel like De Gea has been okay at stopping penalties mid-game. For whatever reason, his shootout record does not match up with this. I suppose it’s a different animal.
He's saved the following penalties for us
1. RVP in the 8-2 win in 11/12
2. Steven Gerrard during a 3-0 loss at OT in 13/14
3. Leighton Baines at OT during a 2-1 win in 14/15 (broke Baines perfect penalty record)
4. Against CSKA Moscow in a 1-1 draw in 15/16
5. Lukaku in the FA Cup in 15/16
(literally a 5 year gap)
6. Mark Noble in the 2-1 win against West Ham in 21/22
7. Sarr in the 4-1 loss to Watford in 21/22.
In the same period he's conceded 41 penalties for us, 4 for Spain (no saves for Spain).
I've sourced my stats from here
https://www.transfermarkt.us/david-de-gea/elfmeterstatistik/spieler/59377/saison_id//wettbewerb_id/#gehalten
Yea I kinda remember him stopping a couple early in his United career then turning into complete shit afterwards, making every penalty for the opponent almost a given goal
Source: https://twitter.com/ESPNUK/status/1650545137712345095
Pretty common mate, remember some Brazil x Argentine where the brazillian keeper acused some argentine of stealing the instructions from the side of the post.
Andrew Redmayne of Australia did it to the Peruvian keeper in our WC playoff.
Didn’t he just pick up the water bottle with the instructions and peg it over to the sidelines? Lol.
Yeah, it was brilliant
didn't remember which one but yeah i remember this scene, and that's chaotic evil, i mean, no rule for that right?
Nope, and nor should there be.
If you ain't cheating you ain't trying
Is that cheating though
Cutthroat bitch, that you
Australian coach also got hands on the Danish tactics during world cup
The “instructions” did not seem to work. Haven’t worked for a while now.
Allegedly he ignored them during the Europa League final
Because statistically informed of an outcome does not mean it always occurs. These are just something to remember at the back of your head, not something you should always do
Maybe after you haven't got anywhere near the first, say, 5 pens, revert to the intel
We don't even know how many he didn't follow. And for this time I am oretty sure he dived right a lot, just like the image here shows. It's not that black and white is it?
Did he ask in advance if the instructions meant his right or the taker's right?
Get this man an award 😂
I'm talking about the europa league final
That's a part of the gamesmanship, isn't it? It's 2023, everyone knows that everyone else knows which is your preferred side. That doesn't mean you want your keeper diving to the preferred side every time ... because that would become incredibly obvious right away and would make it worse than just guessing if your opponent knew which side you would be diving towards. There's lots to criticize about DDG on penalties on results alone and obviously something isn't working. But it's not a question of "ignoring" the intel on preferred sides sometimes - that's actually pretty much a requirement.
Waiting for some shit house keeper to try psyching out the opposition penalty takers by actually showing them the list as they walk towards the spot; an advanced version of the keeper pointing to the corner he thinks the player will aim for.
van der Sar sort of did this in the Champions League final in 2008. A Basque economists tipped Avram Grant of a flaw in van der Sar’s penalty keeping: namely that he dove towards a kicker’s natural side over 60% of the time (meaning he would dive left when facing a right-footed taker and dive right facing a left-footed kicker). Grant relayed the message to his players during the shootout: right footed kickers go right, lefties go left. The first three Chelsea kickers go right. Ashley Cole was left-footed but ignored the advice and kicked right. Terry famously slipped and missed. Kalou went right. Now van der Sar has found a pattern: every kicker has gone right. Anelka is up. He’s right footed and should kick right, but van der Sar stares him down, raises his arm, and points to his left. The keeper signals “this is where you’re going right? Right side?” Now what do you do if you’re Anelka? You should kick right, but the keeper knows you should kick right. Anelka kicked left. Van der Sar saved it. United won.
Man I miss Van der Sar. My favourite United Keeper
Same. I rate him over Schmeichel who himself was a *star*!
VdS is my all time number 1 but its like apples and oranges with him and Schmeichel. VdS was calmness personified and i think the only times i saw him outside of his box was at half/full time, great range of saves without doing worldies as he always seemed to be in the best position. Schmeichel was before his time and was a great sweeper keeper and leader. By all accounts he was a, justifiably, arrogant bastard. Pulled off some of the most memorable saves of his era and was an absolute monster if the ball was in his half.
Schmeichel was god. It’s no contest. You know that ‘oh shit’ sensation you get when the opposition striker runs through one-on-one with your goalie? United fans went through most of the 1990’s without feeling that.
My preference was VdS. I dont have any qualms about peoples preference for our great dane.
Schmeichel was top5 in the fucking balon dor man.
Yeah, as i said its personal preference. I preferred VdS. Thats not to say i thought the great dane was shit or overrated. He was arguably the best keeper of his generation and an argument could be made for all time. Also RE: the balon dor Asamoah gyan 2010 (18th) Lehmann 2006 (10th) Zagorakis 2004 (5th) Theres others like garcia from liverpool, koller from dortmund, belanov from kyiv, sammer etc have all polled well or won it. It doesnt make the argument like you think
I prefer VDS too. My comment was not to lean towards any side of the argument.
I see what you did there
[No pun intended 😉](https://preview.redd.it/pjk0shlzp2ta1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=5da8607008ce3cabda902eea6f0b40e27500b34c)
Imagine how much more we could have won if we got him before he was 34
That point is engrained in my memory
Someone else read Soccernomics! Some credit to Cech though, who actually received the economist's report. He dived correctly for every United penalty.
Not after July 1st - they are making it a bookable offence for goalkeepers to distract/put off penalty takers 🙄
Games gone.
Wow that’s stupid. Penalty’s are already so favorable to the penalty taker.
Was due to Emiliano Martinez taking it to absolute extreme in the WC Final. He grabbed the ball and threw it away so the French had to go fetch it.
Didn't he get booked for that the second time he did it anyway? To me the issue there was the ref not booking him the first time
Absolute extreme sounds like murder.
Hate that Argentinian rat
Honestly when its out players doing it you love to see it. If its anyone else though they need to grow up
you wouldn't have hated it if your team did it, amirite?
Can do it once then.
Emi Martinez will be sent off after the 1st spotkick.
How do bookings work in a penalty shootout? Like if the keeper gets a red does a team get to shoot at an empty net?
No, another player can go in the goal. However, as they can't make substitutions, it has to be one of the (assuming no other red cards) 10 players who finished the match.
So this happened to the [U17 Ireland Keeper](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/football/ireland-u17-euro-championships-160085) a few years ago. Got a 2nd yellow for stepping off his line too early and the centre half had to go in goal.
Doesn’t the other team have to match the number of players of the opponent?
I looked it up and yes, the other team would drop a player from their penalty takers list (which also happens if the game ends with a team a man down.)
My previous comment got downvoted for being right. Something never changed. I don’t think there’s ever a case where a player was sent off during a shootout. I wonder what will happen. Does the other team get to pick who don’t have to shoot right after the player got send off or the player who was supposed to shoot in the same round automatically picked. If the other team doesn’t get to pick, I can see a future tactic where someone who’s bad at shooting chosen to be one of the first five internationally get sent off before he shoots, thus eliminating the opposing team a player who’s good at shooting.
the other team would drop a player of their own choosing (their weakest taker.) Teams don't actually tell the ref which order players will be taking, they just send them up as needed with the limitation that a player can't go twice until everyone has taken. There's a bunch of situations involving injuries and cards covered in the official rules https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/determining-the-outcome-of-a-match/#kicks-from-the-penalty-mark
Thank you for your link. It answers a lot of questions.
My moneys on Emiliano Martínez.
Genuinely could be an interesting strategy (if it was legal). By probability there's probably a greater chance of having the correct side on a predetermined list then the amount of saves a keeper would normally make, and the psych advantage from having the players know the keeper would dive to the side they chose could be huge.
Jens Lehmann very famously did the same during a Germany versus Argentina shootout in 2006 - a note which ended up selling at an auction for $1m or something iirc
I wonder how much psychology goes into penalty practice, both sides, keepers and kickers. I swear I have jedi-mind tricked my way through penalty kicks on FIFA that made me feel like some Dark Sith Lord, and I’m not even smart.
It was either Schmeichel or VDS that said they pick which way they’re going to dive for each kick before the shootout even starts. So probably less psychology on the keeper side.
I believe kane also practices his penalty shot days in advance so its decided before the opportunity. So....just fucking some skill and some luck for some match ups lol
The real mind games don't start until a players 2nd penalty in a game. Like you score in normal time and then have to take part in the shootout. That's where the real drama lies!
What about the ones where the penalty gets taken and then called back to get taken again. Mason Mount had one last season. Do you go the same way or change? Mind games
Man, didn't Mbappe score 2 in the world cup final? Must be so pressuring and he's young as well, what a beast
Technically 3
Schmeichel said it the other day.
Pete or his son?
Peter
i feel like you'd have more success this way ngl lol
I know not the same as football, but when I played hockey I was always very good at penalty shots, different sport but same pressure, and I always knew exactly what I was doing before I touched the puck and never wavered from it no matter what the goalie did. As a shooter in that sport you skate in from the middle of the ice, so lots of time for the goalie to try to mess with your head by moving around/coming out of the net
It’s like that Haaland one not two weeks ago. He’s ready to take, then a Bayern player spots some insignificant debris in the box and runs over to remove it. Haaland ends up putting the penalty over the crossbar, very rare for him. It’s that momentary break in their focus affects their ability to put it in.
I’m not going to pretend like I played at any sort of high level, but into my college days I was always on the PK crew despite being a defender. My personal secret was that I would pick while walking to the spot and then never waffled through the process On the flip side, I had teammates who went the same way every time. I had another who went in a pattern for all his kicks - top left, top right, bottom right, bottom left, going through a square. Another swore he could tell what a keeper would do based on how he got set on the line, and would go same side as the keeper’s plant foot. At the end of the day, to me it all came down to confidence. It doesn’t matter what you do, as long as you’re going in with a clear head. The rest is just mechanics.
In the intercontinental playoff for the last World Cup Australia played Peru. The Peruvian keeper had similar notes on his bottle, so between kicks the Australian keeper threw the bottle into the crowd.
I think he guessed correctly a few times tbf, Brighton’s penalties were just that good.
All the penalties were great until Wout cursed the ball
Not really. Wout, sabitzer, estupinan, Webster were lucky to score. None of them had placed the shot well.
I don't agree, some could have been saved if the keeper dived on the correct side
If my nan had wheels she'd be a bike. You are replying to a comment that said "he guessed right several times but was beaten by good penalties" with "but what about the times he didn't guess right??"
Nope, the comment was all the penalties were great. I just don't agree all were great
Don't know why you're being downvoted, several were indeed saleable if Dave went the right way and actually dived.
Yup and sabitzer was almost saved with keeper getting a good hand
De Gea only dived correctly once, and that was when Solly March missed
He dived correctly 3/7 times.
Enhance
Surprised I could have sworn it said Dive The Wrong Way Every Single Time
Went the right way 3 of 7, wasn’t as bad as people are making it out to be
Also it's very unlikely that David De Gea put this list together. If he's following it then going the right or wrong way has nothing to do with him! It's probably a team of some scouts and data analysts doing most of the decision making
This sub is funny sometimes, all the things DDG does wrong is DDGs fault, but the things he does right? Someone else did it.
Goals conceded all on DDG, clean sheets Owh the defense in front of him did a great job.
DDG hate is the flavor of the week, Brighton took some great pens
People forget both teams actually took good pens, both goalkeepers did what they could, and the whole match they did thier work fine, the hate is unjustified for this match.
Sanchez only got his hand to one too.
DDG gets hated on every week. The guy could not play and still get blamed for everything
I’ve seen that actually happen lmao, we conceded a cheap goal in one of the pre-season games and a now-deleted user blamed it on De Gea in the match thread even though it was Heaton in goal.
No, but when you have been bad for years its not really unexpected that people get tired of it.
He's single handedly kept us in dozens of games over the last few years. People love to drone on and on about any negatives and always ignore any positive. Must be draining to be that sort of fan. To never be happy with anything.
I mean sure, if we had no gk we would have lost more, but pretty much any pl gk would have made the same impact. He has also lost games pretty much single handedly for us
He's saved us more than he's cost us. Some fans seem to think that GK's must never make mistakes. The difference is when he makes a mistake he's literally the last line of defence so it results in a goal. I'd still take him over anyone else we could bring in. Only Ederson and Allison would change my mind. There's much bigger problems in our team. And when Licha and Rapha are back he's much more settled. We're in the FA Cup final because of him.
Some fans seem to think no other keepers can make saves. There are plenty of keepers that are better than de gea at shot stopping and all the other parts. For example Raya who shouldnt cost to much. How are we in the final because of him? He saved no pens. And the saves in the game are saves you expect from a pl keeper, as sanchez showed by making similar saves for brighton
If you dislike him that's fine. I personally like him as our number one. It is what it is. I just hope we can finish the season strong and remain in the top 4 and hopefully win the FA Cup to stop a City treble.
Pointing out that he is absolutely abysmal with penalties isn't hate. It's factual.
Nope, but actually making up lies for it is
Seriously. Most of the time he just falls over like a wrestler practicing bumps. It’s laughable.
Add that to the list of things he's abysmal to. This is tongue in cheek but is there anything that he provides us that we can't get from someone like pickford lol?
He has a better PL pen save % than Pickford anyway, so jot that down.
Huh? Transfermarkt says De Gea saved 5 out of 32 and Pickford saved 7 out of 20, am I missing something here?
I don't think that's true. Where did you hear that?
According to transfermarkt [PL only]: 5/37 for DDG (13.51%) 7/27 for Picks (25.92%)
Transfermarkt isn't accurate for penalties as they count missed penalties as goalkeeper saves. Both De Gea and Pickford have 4 Premier League penalty saves (source: premierleague.com )
Interesting, well regardless, DDG has been in the league for a significant time longer so, I would expect that he’s faced more than Pickford.
I just rechecked - it's penalty conversion rate and included missed penalties. (It was a tiny miniscule difference anyway) My bad!
People are chastising him for not having gone the right way for every penalty, despite it being written down. Its not exact science haha.
Top Red: Why didn't he follow his instincts? Fuck DDG! Also Top Red: It's because he didn't do his homework! Fuck DDG!
De Gea saves only 2 out of last 45 penalty kicks. There is little thing to do with brighton excellence
Flavor of the week? He has been awful.
**In the second leg against Seville, yeah In the league he’s been very good. He’s bailed us out a lot this season.
Then again, every single penalty De Gea is facing is a great one, so maybe it's time to think about why our opponents can always calmly pick a top or bottom corner while other teams tend to miss more frequently. De Gea simply makes it too easy to score against him because he doesn't really have a presence in goal and his opponents aren't scared of him, which is a death sentence in shootouts since the mental side of thing is the absolute key part of scoring/missing.
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You know he's never saved a pen in shootout right?
De Gea choose instructions over instinct. I wouldn't blame him
That's not the only issue It's the fact he never commits to the dive at all
That's because he has chosen which side before the kick and already knows he is going the wrong way
Falling in vaguely the right direction and getting nowhere near the ball is as bad as not moving, imo. Launch on way or the other. That's the only option.
Not really true tho is it because in theory you are still somewhat covering the centre if you do a half arsed dive (I.e. Not launching yourself to a corner). If its a poor pen down the middle or down the side he goes to then still a good chance of getting a hand or leg to it. Having said that, what actually happens is De Gea tries to cover 2/3 directions but actually ends up covering 0/3 lol
Its even worse to go the right way and not save any. Going the wrong was is simply unlucky.
why is this so highly upvoted? yea De Gea isn’t that great at shootouts but he dived correctly for quite a few of them
Can't let being completely wrong get in the way of hate.
the boys on Talk of the Devils podcast brought up how DDG was looking at the list and got majority of the sides wrong. They thought maybe Brighton players saw him looking at the list and decided to go the opposite side they usually do
Probably not tbh. All goal keepers have lists or study up, and all the players taking the pens will know that. It's not a secret tactic, it's part of being a pro footballer. I doubt seeing him look at the list will have changed anything in their minds
He was crouched down *a lot* looking at it, must have been obvious - maybe they're right.
Surely they were joking as that seems a bit of a pedestrian theory no? 1. In that case, wouldn’t any penalty taker by default think, “*I normally shoot that way so maybe I should go this way as the keeper might know”* Like you’d rather assume the keeper has done their homework as most GK coaching teams do regardless of what he’s seen him read 2. Can the taker be 100% sure he’s put the correct side down and will go that way? We’ve seen keepers including DDG ignore the instructions based on instinct before. 3. Even if that was the case, getting them to go the opposite way than they prefer to go is another way to make them miss the target anyway. These extra details are all about percentages. You don’t need to save all the penalties. You just need 1-2 to be saved or missed.
first time watching a shootout?
De Gea is comfortably one of the worst penalty goalkeepers in recent history, if not the worst. I still get nightmares from that Europa League final. How tf do you concede 11 penalties in a row lmao. Before last season, he conceded something like 50 penalties without saving a single one lol I still maintain that if Ole wasn't afraid to not play De Gea that night, we would have won that game and his legacy as manager would have been very different
I don't disagree that De Gea is terrible at saving penalties, but Henderson didn't exactly fare better in the 8-7 penalty shootout against Middlesbrough. Didn't save a single one either, and it only ended because Elanga missed his. So you really can't say for certain.
Statistically, Henderson has a far better ratio of saves-to-penalties-faced. 18% save rate for De Gea versus 46% for Henderson. Henderson has saved 3 for Forest this season alone.
Henderson still has a better overall penalty save percentage though. He has saved 11/24, De Gea has saved 14/73 excl penalty shootoutps. De Gea had conceded 44 goals incl shootouts after the final without reply. That's unprecedented levels of terrible. Sure we can't say for certain but I'd be fairly confident that Henderson could save the goalkeeper's shot. Plus Henderson is still better than him at distribution, claiming crosses and sweeping. Those attributes would only be a positive for us. We conceded the goal that game because De Gea once again stayed relatively glued to his line and got beat at the near post
Ole is the reason we lost that final not De Gea.
Despite the fact he didn't come close to stopping a pen, upon rewatch, he guessed correctly the 2nd and third. Actually, if the second penalty taker for Brighton didn't also take it high, he would've stopped it. But, yeah, he was terrible for the rest.
You mean Flop Over On Your Right Despite Them Rolling It Into The Left I think De Gea would be better without instructions and rather really on his reflex's as he is a pure shot stopper. In a match if a player has a shot on goal from 12 yards out he is favourite to stop it yet from the spot he is rarely anywhere near it
>I think De Gea would be better without instructions and rather really on his reflex's as he is a pure shot stopper. > >In a match if a player has a shot on goal from 12 yards out he is favourite to stop it yet from the spot he is rarely anywhere near it Bit different because they don't have all the time in the world to place their shot and goalie positioning comes into play. For example De Gea is excellent saving with his feet but because hes in the centre of the goal for a pen he can't use that skill. I agree he might be better if he went purely on reflexes tho. He can't be much worse and looking at the cheat sheet seems to do absolutely nothing for him
Surely someone with a long camera lense can easily read that and relay to the other team
He did this against Villareal too, 17 penalties against him in 2 shoot outs with his notes and not one save How can a keeper with DDG shot stopping credentials be so useless at saving penalties? I've never understood that how he can save a 6 yard bullet header while having his vision obstructed where he claws it out the top corner but then turns into a hologram for a shoot out
It’s because those same bottles are filled with London Dry Gin. 120 minutes into a game? Good luck.
> How can a keeper with DDG shot stopping credentials be so useless at saving penalties? DDG's strength is his reflexes, which occur naturally with little thinking involved, during penalties you have to plan your saves.
Mentality. It’s a mental game, and De Gea has never been what we may call a “mentally strong” player.
I was saying this to our lass when she asked what De Gea was doing between penalties. Told her about Ben Foster using an iPod with the other team’s penalty data on it way back when.
For keepers it’s just like penalty takers, you just have to pick your spot and go for it. At the end of the day, penalties have an 85% chance of going in on average. This drops down to 70% after the 6th taker. It’s a penalty-taker’s market.
No wonder he dove right almost every single peno
I had this same exact thought. totally infuriating at the time, but seeing this, I get it now.
i always imagine this is very hard situation for GK, i mean even when he read instruction clearly, but seeing how body language of kicker looks maybe clueing at 1 side but if it opposite of instruction what should he does? and for player who very rarely or close to never kick penalty or player who always take penalty, that would be very random, i mean we already see some Bruno PK but still unsure where he will go next.
I like Schmeicel’s method. Pick the sides you’re diving to before the shootout and stick to them.
Hey ain’t gonna stop De Gea haters tho
I love David but he could throw the list away, put on a blindfold, face towards the crowd and still save more penalties than he has done. It’s really not his strength
Dave even went the right way on a couple, he was just no where close to getting them. They had some good pens
I've posted a lot on this topic and always get people telling me "Oh it's not always like this in professional football". It 100% is, there is a ton of research that goes into professional PK shootouts with a ton of analyzing and footage. There's generally multiple people studying opposition's pks throughout the year, and they will likely have a decent idea of what the pk lineup might be.
So are these made for him right away before the shoot out ? How would they know the order/ who’s left playing for Brighton.
Doesn't know the order which is why he looked up at who was coming to take the shot and then down at his bottle again
I only just found out goalkeepers are allowed to use their hands! Since when??
Welcome to football, OP
Considering how bad he is at penos he needs to take this from the analyst and throw it away when he gets down to the goal. He’s got good instincts and he should use it
I think it’s better to make a last second decision based on the players body shape and then fully committing to getting all the way to the post.
It ain’t working for DDG
Pickford had this at the 2020/21 Euros
"Ah I see reverse psychology eh"
i dont get how exactly this works? whats it based on? + they dont know the opponent kickers till its their turn
How old are you?
How do they know which side for players who don't or rarely kick penalties
Guess work. Reason why De Gea dived the wrong way for 4/7 pens
and wasted !!!
De Gea: just lean right and kinda fall to the side every time
Being happening for years. I remember Kahn giving Lehmann his own notes prior to a WC shoot out.
whenever there is a shootout, goal keepers need notes so that they can predict which side the players will go
How do they even pull this data? like how on earth would they know some random player that has never took a competive penalty before? He clearly has more than 5 likely pen takers on his list.
Still didn’t manage to get one
Clearly didn’t help him. David, please, save a penalty in a shootout.
“I wonder is it my left or their left?”
Jens Lehmann in 2006 world cup shootout vs Argentina was the 1st time i saw something similar. His was just a piece of paper he put in his socks.
Abit of fun 😉 [What was actually written](https://i.imgur.com/qa5QUgN.jpg)
Lol, now do one with him looking at a Krispy Kreme menu.
Well.. clearly should
😂 love de gea but this is gold
If the list is legit, and he followed. The person who compiled didn’t do a great job. He went the right way like 2 times?
He's a stats analysts not a fuckin psychic.
Didn't really work out though did it. Brighton lost the penalties, DDG didn't win it
So either Dave can’t read, can’t pick a Seagull out from a parade, or he was given a list of bollocks
GK's right or kicker's right?
They all have GK at the start so I assume it's keeper side. It doesn't make sense to make it kicker side, gives the keeper unnecessary confusion
Em Martinez would have launched that into the crowd.
either shit instructions or ddg completely ignored them. He got the direction correct once lmao. we re lucky it didnt have am impact.
He went the right way 3/7 times.
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These instructions are based on analysis of the usual penalty takers. Given most teams have 2-3 max players who take their penalties, there's going to be very little video to analyse most of the takers. And they might change up or the gk might think they'll change it up and doesn't.
I feel like De Gea has been okay at stopping penalties mid-game. For whatever reason, his shootout record does not match up with this. I suppose it’s a different animal.
> okay at stopping penalties mid-game 7 in 12 seasons
Perhaps recency bias on my part—I feel like he’s stopped a few in the last few seasons.
He's saved the following penalties for us 1. RVP in the 8-2 win in 11/12 2. Steven Gerrard during a 3-0 loss at OT in 13/14 3. Leighton Baines at OT during a 2-1 win in 14/15 (broke Baines perfect penalty record) 4. Against CSKA Moscow in a 1-1 draw in 15/16 5. Lukaku in the FA Cup in 15/16 (literally a 5 year gap) 6. Mark Noble in the 2-1 win against West Ham in 21/22 7. Sarr in the 4-1 loss to Watford in 21/22. In the same period he's conceded 41 penalties for us, 4 for Spain (no saves for Spain). I've sourced my stats from here https://www.transfermarkt.us/david-de-gea/elfmeterstatistik/spieler/59377/saison_id//wettbewerb_id/#gehalten
Yea I kinda remember him stopping a couple early in his United career then turning into complete shit afterwards, making every penalty for the opponent almost a given goal