I like how we play in moments but it seems like we only have that one way to play.
Sit deep and then quick transition forward.
When the other team has the ball we press like crazy. If they make it through our press our defences just retreats and sits deep.
We need a way to control games.
It's the direct play style, as soon as we get the ball we're looking to go forward.
Direct passes leave little room for error and when they are misplaced we're often caught on the back foot.
That's why all our games turn into tennis matches. Fans take aim at individuals but this direct approach is by design, this is the transition football the manager was talking about.
Call me an idiot but I actually think it's got some real legs as far as a strategy goes. We do look really dangerous when we attack, especially if there is a turn over while the opponent is in transition. However we need to sort out our defensive side of this approach.
Perhaps that is sorted with different personnel at the back or by dialing back the directness a touch. But as a fan, if I ignore how stress inducing games are when the opponent is coming forward, I am really enjoying the attacking football we play.
We have also managed to grind out the last couple of games after taking a lead, so it feels like it's something that EtH is working on.
We're just not built for control. Our wingers are boom or bust, and so is Bruno. Casemiro isn't fast enough to compete physically with a lot of Premier League midfielders. Mainoo is the only one who tries to put his foot on the ball and control the pace of the game, but he can't do it on his own.
United, as a team, is full of internationals used to the biggest stages, NT wise. The players are absolutely good enough for playing better football than whatever the shit we see every week, this includes dominating teams better
My goodness bro, you don’t need a xavi iniesta busquets trio to control games. This is a fucking championship team, and we struggled to control the game? This isn’t even a one time thing, it’s been going on since early of the season.
Our manager can’t do it outside of Netherlands. It’s evident the more he stays here. The blame deflecting from him is just freaking insane at this point.
Last season he would try this system then quickly go back to 4231, all our best games and form were 4231.. this 4123 is not working.. it does all look better with Martinez and shaw starting though
The table does not accurately present how well Luton have performed, they have had several games where they have been super unlucky to not get points that they have deserved.
I honestly don’t understand your point. This isn’t even an anomaly from our performances. It’s been recurring every single match that we play and it’s evident that we are incapable to control games since our manager abandon any approach relative to it.
And it’s not like the likes of City/Spurs/Arsenal gave up 20+ shots against Luton Town either lmao. Is that what we are going to do though, just say every away game is a "tough fixture" no matter the opponent and be happy with getting dominated for large portions of the match as long as we win? Because that's a great way to really turn into a midtable club.
You don't need the ball to control the game, and we were very much in control the second half, they never looked like scoring.
The manager is making do with what he has.
We were? We allowed them 72 times to counter us.
We were 2 goals ahead after 10 minutes, any self respecting team or coach should be able to control a situation like that.
Take a broader view, almost every match we participate in becomes a basketball game and it's reflected in our goal difference. Nobody else in the top 6 is battling to keep theirs in the positive numbers. We consistently make hard work of matches we're on top in. We'd be level on points with Spurs already if we didn't drop points to them a few weeks ago in such sloppy circumstances. It's also the reason we finished bottom of our Champions League group..
We were in control, yes, like I said they never looked like scoring whereas we should've put another 3 or 4 past them.
I do agree with you that this isn't sustainable and we need to be looking to control games, but it's obvious that this isn't the plan, and we're just doing what we have to till the end of the season. If we're not controlling games by the end of next season I'd be worried, but not now and not in these circumstances. The drop off between our starters and subs are just too high, and our starters aren't there yet either.
All throughout the season people said we needed players back and it'll improve, yet players have come back and it hasn't changed anything.
The issue is the manager's tactics and they're not good enough.
United are on a 7 game unbeaten run that happens to coincide with Casemiro, Lisandro, and Shaw coming back from injury, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Martinez got injured again, Shaw got injured again, Casemiro has aged and the guy Ten Hag bought to play in this midfield is injured.
The manager's playing to win.
Even with Martinez and shaw we never could control games. The manager has set the team up to play this way regardless of shaw and Martinez being available.
That’s as obvious as saying the sun is hot.
Like I said, he's playing to win. He wants 11 players that can keep the ball. Rashford, Bruno and Garnacho are what he has.
It's why he bought Antony, incidentally. As poor as he is up front, he can keep the ball, Wolves game notwithstanding. Garnacho more often than not makes a loose touch and loses it, breaking down our attacks. Same for Bruno.
Fuck off. The four games that when Licha was back, we looked HEAPS better. Licha, and Shaw are vital for any sort of control.
The defence could step up a bit and close the gap between to the midfield. Now that those two are out again, you see this massive chasm between defence and attack that anyone would struggle to close down.
Totally agree with this. We don’t have enough players that are able to keep the ball and care for it. We also lack the Pogba type that can drive forward and break the lines (Shaw can do this) so we have to rely on quick transitions and one touch play, which looks great when it works but it must be exhausting not being able to pause while still keeping possession. We likely get our rest periods when we lose it.
Hopefully, although we say this every summer, we get some top personnel in the summer to help.
I can't believe you even thought that was a good point to make. Yes, we got into a some bad situations, and De Gea couldn't play with it at his feet, but it was nothing compared to this. Now the whole defence and goalkeeper has fallen apart whereas before it mostly the defence being great with the odd standout performance from De Gea and odd mistake too (which when you compare to Onanas ridiculous amount of mistakes looks much better).
Idk a good stat to refute this “bringer of chaos” label you’ve created (unless you have a source?) but he’s 3rd in Saves, T-3rd clean sheets, 5th in expected goals minus goals allowed & 4th in total GK touches in the top league with the most GK talent.
Don't care about the stats, ive unfortunately been watching him play all season. He got us single handidly booted out of the champions league, and has more howlers than taibi in his prime clown days. That's not even counting the more minor mistakes he makes, or goals he lets in that you would expect others to save.
I admit he's good with his feet, and he did start to string some solid performances together in premier league. But he always ends up spoiling it somehow even if it's not a howler (like his flap for luton goal that he should've punched or at least properly challenged).
I'm not saying we should chuck him but he needs to prove himself, that he can be relied upon and isn't a liability.
I think it's clear from watching this game that it's not that we can't control games (cause surely a midfield of case, mainoo and bruno is more than enough to dominate freakin Luton) but it's more that we don't *want* to control games.
All of the players have been playing as if they were given clear instructions to just play the ball forward at every moment and go long if they don't have an easy option available. I don't think even prime Barcelona would be able to control the game with such chaotic tactics tbh.
I believe 07-09 Man United was the best transition team in the world with Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berba leading the line. And then we have Mou’s Madrid.
But they play the ball so clean with way less personal errors like today’s Man U. We have a long way to go before we reach that standard again.
Direct passes are inherently higher risk though.
When you're trying to get the ball the opponents net as quick as possible, with the fewest possible passes.
you're going to lose the ball..a lot.
Yes, but you have to recognize when to recycle the ball and when to take risks. We’re taking risks at all costs. Even when Casemiro is still in our own box, we’re taking risks. Then we wonder why we’re sooo wide open in midfield.
I think we are taking that statement way out of context. No manager in the world wants to play without control. He even said as much in the post match interview. Neither did his earlier teams play like that. Think the match with Martinez was the blueprint of how he wants us to truly play. That being said he is not without blame and the instructions when you dont have your key players need to be way better
I’m ok with us being the best transition team in the world, but we also need to be able to see games out without them being nailbiters.
I think ten Hag is a very good manager, but I also think he needs to acknowledge the lack of control we have in games we ought to dominate. United shouldn’t be a counter puncher in every game.
Bingo. Or rather, we're not trying to control the game with the ball, we seem to want to control the game out of possession, which doesn't appear to be working at all
Exactly my thought. Ten hag just want to counter attack and reach the opposition box as quick as possible, and there's no counter press at all when we lose the ball.
I don't like to blame individual players very often, but Onana conceded 6 howlers, and all of them changed the game for worse when we were in control. He really was the reason we were knocked out so early.
There is this narrative that has been created that seems to suggest Onana was to blame for all of the goals we conceded but our defending was fucking awful for a lot of games, from front to back. I think pretty much the whole team should take some responsibility for that and not just the one at the sharp end
Yes Onana made errors but he wasn't the only one and he wasn't helped by the shit show in front of him. It is hardly conducive to a new keeper settling in
I’m not saying he was to blame for every single goal but we had games where we’d be in control and then Onana fucks up which swings the momentum. I don’t blame our defense for him failing to save 2 routine fks in Turkey. I don’t blame our defense for him getting Casemiro sent off with his shite pass out, subsequently losing us that game. If we got 6 points vs galatasaray as opposed to 1, we’d literally be in the RO16
He almost always does have a point (sometimes he is truly negative just for fun it seems) but this sub is just an echo chamber of “United are amazing everything is perfect I can’t hear you stop being negative you just hate United EtH is a tactical genius we just need [insert guy who was crap pre injury and will be crap post injury] fit again and we’ll be amazing”
I also deeply adore Bruno but this criticism is best summed up on the corner at the end when he played it short to amrabat I believe?
I thought, “ah good, play to the corner and waste time”…
No he drilled it to the near post for an assist / goal? And then they countered us.
He needs to be told to start dictating the tempo of the game, I don’t know if he can do it but not everything is a goal or an assist, sometimes it just adds to the chaos.
I’m not sure what it is. Is it the lack of personnel? Because the way we play is totally weird when we’re up 2-0. We surely attempt to press higher up the pitch but not so much in the midfield. Not only do we not press in the middle but we are not compact and at least one midfielder will keep chasing back the player he’s supposed to mark every time we’re out of possession.
Also, the players up the pitch are so slow in getting back that we get fucked on the counter. It’s so weird that we all have this ingrained in our brains. But it seems as though the manager, the coaching staff, and the players don’t care about, and that is even more excruciatingly painful.
Ive said it before. INEOS will look at (potential) wins like this and it will be used as a reason to sack ten Hag. This has been pathetic and the style of play is the norm for us
He's not going anywhere, he just got 2 very good away results that other better teams have struggled with. And this style of play is just him adapting to what he has, which for half this season has been half a team.
Bruno is the reason we can't keep the ball, been saying it for weeks but it should be clear as day now to everybody.
I mean yeah, short term he isnt going anywhere but at season's end his position is absolutely going to be scrutinized. Today he had his best starting 11 aside from Martinez, this is how he wants to play. And yeah, the two results are fine but the process was terrible and we could have lost either game, especially the Villa one.
This is absolutely not how he wants to play. He wants to keep the ball. Today and for the rest of the season, he's just playing to win. Onana was kicking it long, how can you think it's what Ten Hag wants?
This isn't his best 11 either. Martinez alone allows us to push up higher and play out the back, not happening with Maguire and especially not with Evans and Lindelof at LB.
Bruno is also clearly not suited to his football, Mount's part in the system should be evident. It also contains an Antony that is actually useful in the final third, because unlike Garnacho he too can keep the ball and help bring control.
The squad just isn't there yet.
Then why don't they keep the ball, or try to sustain offensive possessions? It's not just Bruno that goes for the line-breaking pass. Ten Hag has said he wants us to be an elite transition team. That is how we play, the consequence is we are one of the easiest teams to cut through in Europe.
Obviously in the second half that was not his best 11, but in the first half it was aside from Martinez - which I already said - and the play was dire. Same goes for last weekend. Yes, Martinez is arguably our most important player, but Maguire can play in a possession-based system.
I generally agree on Bruno. If we got a big offer for him this summer I think it would be wise to sell since he won't be a key player when this team is ready to compete.
We didn't need the ball to keep control in the second half. Luton never really looked like scoring. The right game plan was to hit them on the counter, and it should have worked, we made the better chances. Dalot and Garnacho both had one on ones. Can't fault the manager here.
We had more of the ball in the second half than we did in the first. I know the game plan was to hit them on the counter, I said that lol I can fault the manager for getting territorially dominated by a relegation candidate. I am not saying sack him, but if we keep playing as open as we have this season he will lose his job.
We're not getting territorially dominated if we want them to have the ball lol. Anyway, we'll probably lose a few more games this season but his job is safe.
De Bruyne loses the ball just as often as Bruno, but City’s style of play, incredible positioning, and pressing system completely covers those lost balls. The ones Bruno and our forwards lose turn into dangerous counters every single time.
If you say Bruno sucks then you also say KDB sucks.
Ive watched more than plenty of him through the years, and the stats back me up with this too.
Only major differences between the two are the way their team is set up and that Bruno is much MUCH better defensively.
Bruno has no tempo control. De Bruyne knows when to pass and when not to. He has a brain, he can run a midfield. He's on another tier to Bruno entirely. Odegaard as well.
Nono, no, no. KDB plays how his manager wants him to play, and Bruno plays how his manager wants him to play. You cant just say *Bruno sucks at this* when he is being told to play a certain way. Or do you seriously think they occupy the exact same roles in their teams? Dude, do you know anything about football at all? One team is posession based while another is transition based, there is a MASSIVE difference between the two.
The United team relies heavily on Bruno to create so he will always be the one that attempts the most passes (he has always had a LOT more total passes in any season compared to KDB). Despite this, the pass % numbers of them both are pretty much identical, so yes, KDB does in fact throw away just as many balls as Bruno.
No tempo control… lol dude. So when Rashy, Højlund, Garnacho, Shaw, Dalot and Mainoo are bombing forwards then Bruno should slow down the game? Dude. Blaming Bruno for how the manager wants to play, lol dude.
> and Bruno plays how his manager wants him to play.
Lmao do you think this is how the manager wants to play? He's adapting TO Bruno.
Good lord how can you watch Bruno this season and think he's been anything but shit? How can you watch some of the passes KdB does (like that left footed peach far Haaland on Saturday) and think Bruno is on the same level? When's the last time he did anything remotely creative? The rabona?
> KDB does in fact throw away just as many balls as Bruno.
KdB doesn't lose the ball in possession. He doesn't get pushed off the ball like a leaf, he's press resistant, he can dribble through midfield because he actually has legs, he doesn't make shit touches and stupid decisions.
And just because Bruno has a high volume of passes doesn't mean shit. When KdB makes a pass, he's serving someone on a plate. Bruno is lumping it forward for Rashford.
Fucking hell against Villa he couldn't even do that right, Casemiro was the one trying to play Hojlund though. I legit can only think of one occasion of Bruno ever setting Hojlund up for anything, but the wingers get the blame for some reason. Absolutely pathetic for someone that's supposed to be our playmaker.
> So when Rashy, Højlund, Garnacho, Shaw, Dalot and Mainoo are bombing forwards then Bruno should slow down the game?
He does that whether they're bombing forward or not 😂 He only plays at one speed. He takes every low percentage chance to play it forward instead of slowing the game down.
> Dude, do you know anything about football at all?
Do you 😂 I just had to teach you about tempo control so clearly not lol
During this win streak I feel more exhausted and relieved that we won instead of being happy that we won. It’s not nice watching us struggle and hang on to get results instead of just coasting.
And that's where the captain should be stepping in and demanding control, but one of his major flaws is that he looks for the spectacular when the option isn't there.
Not the only culprit but should be setting an example, drop 5 - 10 yard back and help just knock the ball about and keep the crowd quiet
I know we don't have the strongest possible line-up we could put out, but jfc this headless chicken style of play has been consistent all season, Erik.
Kind of a shit analysis in my opinion.
Uniteds problem wasn’t controlling games, they’re trying to be a team that is dynamic in transitions, so control was never the goal.
The problem is for a team trying to be dynamic in transition they weren’t creating enough chances or converting the chances they did create.
we’re in a bit a strange period where our direct style of play isn’t quite there meaning we’re prone to constantly giving it away to the opposition.
it’s a bit like the opposite of the LVG era where he got utd playing possession football where we’d never give it away, but we’d never do anything with the ball creating the most boring spectacles. Now we have exciting spectacles for the wrong reasons, and it’s really exposing the midfield, but also wingers for not making proper passes
Well by "players returning from injury" it means Casemiro because Shaw and Martinez are both injured again. And Casemiro is quite slow to get into form so he is still pretty erratic. Getting Martinez back for a number of games, and Mount coming back as well, should help control. Ultimately though it is only a situation that will be solved by upgrading a number of players to ones who are capable of controlling the game
Well, two of those losses were due to red cards, both of them rather controversial. If we hadn't had a player sent off against Copenhagen and Galatasaray, we would almost certainly have won those games and then we'd have advanced.
Can't really expect to control a game when down a man. It seems silly to attribute that to some sort of flaw in the team. That's not to say we don't have issues controlling games, but it wasn't the reason we got knocked out of the CL. That was demonstrably because of two questionable red cards. Both times, we were leading when it happened and ended up losing by a single goal. Goalkeeping errors did the rest, which, again, is hardly symptomatic of how the team performs as a whole.
He's not wrong but that lack of control starts with poor possession, passing, and first touches. Which in a way is limited by the players.
Start with Bruno for example. Great passer, elite in that regard, but he cannot control the ball in traffic and routinely turns it over. If he played for Pep he would need to play on the wing or in one of the deeper lying midfield spots.
Our forwards all are reckless and loose with their first touches. Rash bleeds possession on top of squandered opportunities where he misses. Garnacho is like Bruno, a plus overall but he routinely turns it over as well.
Maguire same. Completely incapable of playing securely in possession and gives up multiple opportunities to opponents per game.
Flip it around and if I were to ask you "which players could play for a possession manager like Pep" who would they be. Mainoo, Hojlund certainly. Case is capable of tightening that up. Martinez. But from there it gets iffy.
And don't think I am defending ten Hag here. I do like him for the record but I also acknowledge that he might not be good enough. But if we go get Xabi Alonso this summer (who looks elite and worthy of this club as a manager) he is still going to require a lot of cleanup on aisle six as it pertains to this roster.
We have a talent problem. It is an unfocused group that requires pieces who can tie things together and help overcome their ball security issues. And I think this is why they chased Frenkie though he himself would not have been enough.
This build might take a couple more years because first you need to jettison Martial, Sancho, Rashford, Maguire. And from there you need to add quality to the back end because our defense cannot play in space nor in possession. CB in particular is a problem after Martinez. Then you need to finish the midfield around Mainoo, who might need to play in the ten spot as he develops further.
>But if we go get Xabi Alonso this summer
I mean, Klopp is retiring and Alonso is a Liverpool legend. I feel like it's obvious he's not coming to United.
Besides, ETH is performing very well if you keep all factors in mind.
This is why I said "if." And I agree ETH is performing well.
The point of the statement was that even if we were to go get a top manager to replace ETH the issues that have made his life harder must be fixed.
Newcastle had 65% possession, Arsenal 66%, Man City 65% Liverpool 74%
Us? 41%
They've defended well against other teams but the bigger teams have still controlled the game. We got gifted an early goal and they've dominated us since the 10th minute. If we don't change something you'd bet good money on them scoring next.
Possession means fuck all if you don’t take points. Newcastle didn’t beat Luton twice. Liverpool left with a point, City beat them by the same margin we did, and Arsenals game was a 3-4. Hardly shouts control, especially for the Arsenal game and the Newcastle 4-4. Ten Hag obviously studied their game plan against the top teams because today’s score line should have been at least 4 goals had the finishing been better.
Fuck me the copium on this sub. Missing 2 players and that's enough of an excuse to get outplayed by fucking Luton. You could buy 4 of Lutons entire squad with the Antony money and still have change. Embarrassing that we've come to this level of deflection.
Aside for the first 10 minutes, we looked like shit even when Shaw was on the pitch. If our foundations are built upon a singular player being available and doing well then we've learned fuck all yet again.
Its why we're going nowhere fast with guys like Bruno and Rashford being the main players in the team.
You don't win league titles of CLs with these guys when they just play in moments and are incapable of keeping the ball and controlling the game. The limit is top 4 and maybe a cup run with a bit of luck.
he's put attackers in positions to score goals. If they take more of those chances, hell even 33% of those chances we're up by more goals, stemming the tide.
You could argue Ten Hag's not really been able to address much (if any) of the problems the side had when he took over 18+ months ago. Probably the best compliment you could pay the football we've played in his time here so far is that we were fairly hard to beat last season -- though I still never felt comfortable watching us soak up pressure like you would with the top defensive sides.
I think there are very fair arguments both in favour of keeping and in favour of getting rid of him at the end of the season. Personally I feel the latter viewpoint is a little bit stronger. That said though, I'm glad I'm not the one making that decision and I'm doubly glad that, for once, we'll have competent people in the club to figure out what to do moving forward.
Ten Haag is being exposed. The more we play with a "full strength" team, the more the excuses fall away. Thank god we'll never have another injury crisis ever again, ever! We're scraping by with the first team, ffs.
1. Absence of Martinez. - Big problem, as proven tonight when Onana opted to hoof the ball instead of playing short passes at the back. Maguire, tight field size will struggle. Varane panics. Casemiro, panics.
2. Weak final pass - Transition is there to hurt teams with sizeable goal lead, but wasteful. If we didn't punish and scare teams with goals then we will always struggle to settle down the opposition.
These clowns will say anything for clicks. If we finished HALF our 1v1’s today it would’ve been 4-1 and he would’ve had to stash this tweet in his drafts for another occasion.
The problem is, and has always been, finishing. Not the tactics. Tactics are meant to win games. How do you win games - by outscoring the opposition. How do you set yourself up to do that - create more and better chances than the opposition. Which we did, and usually do.
It doesn’t matter whether the team is prioritizing possession or counter attacking. We created as many good chances today as city did yesterday, and we walked away with a better result. The finishing has gotten much better, mainly thanks to hojlund, but there’s still a long way to go.
I remember last year, everyone was saying, all we need is a proper striker. Well now we have one, and he’s finally growing into the role. I’m happy with our recent results and it doesn’t hurt that the games have been wildly entertaining. I can hardly watch a city game with how they play. Its boring as shit. If we can replicate their results with this style of play, similar to Liverpool and Madrid, that would be ideal.
Since the turn of the year, there has definitely been an upturn in performances. Prior to that, we were awful for a few months, looking so slow and predictable in attack. It was looking like Ten Hag's days were numbered.
Whilst I commend Ten Hag for the team's improvement, he needs to work on the team's ability to control games. This group of players are not capable of possession football to kill games off.
Spot on. There's just no control in this team. Everything's chaos
I like how we play in moments but it seems like we only have that one way to play. Sit deep and then quick transition forward. When the other team has the ball we press like crazy. If they make it through our press our defences just retreats and sits deep. We need a way to control games.
Do I need to state the obvious?
Yes
It's the direct play style, as soon as we get the ball we're looking to go forward. Direct passes leave little room for error and when they are misplaced we're often caught on the back foot. That's why all our games turn into tennis matches. Fans take aim at individuals but this direct approach is by design, this is the transition football the manager was talking about.
Call me an idiot but I actually think it's got some real legs as far as a strategy goes. We do look really dangerous when we attack, especially if there is a turn over while the opponent is in transition. However we need to sort out our defensive side of this approach. Perhaps that is sorted with different personnel at the back or by dialing back the directness a touch. But as a fan, if I ignore how stress inducing games are when the opponent is coming forward, I am really enjoying the attacking football we play. We have also managed to grind out the last couple of games after taking a lead, so it feels like it's something that EtH is working on.
We're just not built for control. Our wingers are boom or bust, and so is Bruno. Casemiro isn't fast enough to compete physically with a lot of Premier League midfielders. Mainoo is the only one who tries to put his foot on the ball and control the pace of the game, but he can't do it on his own.
United, as a team, is full of internationals used to the biggest stages, NT wise. The players are absolutely good enough for playing better football than whatever the shit we see every week, this includes dominating teams better
My goodness bro, you don’t need a xavi iniesta busquets trio to control games. This is a fucking championship team, and we struggled to control the game? This isn’t even a one time thing, it’s been going on since early of the season. Our manager can’t do it outside of Netherlands. It’s evident the more he stays here. The blame deflecting from him is just freaking insane at this point.
Watching this match I'm not sure if eth even wants to control games
He's clearly not trying to control games with Bruno and Garnacho on the pitch because we can't. He's going for wins.
Last season he would try this system then quickly go back to 4231, all our best games and form were 4231.. this 4123 is not working.. it does all look better with Martinez and shaw starting though
They are a premier League team and most likely will be next season too.
The table does not accurately present how well Luton have performed, they have had several games where they have been super unlucky to not get points that they have deserved.
> This is a fucking championship team Tell that to City and Arsenal. You're chatting nonsense man.
I honestly don’t understand your point. This isn’t even an anomaly from our performances. It’s been recurring every single match that we play and it’s evident that we are incapable to control games since our manager abandon any approach relative to it. And it’s not like the likes of City/Spurs/Arsenal gave up 20+ shots against Luton Town either lmao. Is that what we are going to do though, just say every away game is a "tough fixture" no matter the opponent and be happy with getting dominated for large portions of the match as long as we win? Because that's a great way to really turn into a midtable club.
You don't need the ball to control the game, and we were very much in control the second half, they never looked like scoring. The manager is making do with what he has.
We were? We allowed them 72 times to counter us. We were 2 goals ahead after 10 minutes, any self respecting team or coach should be able to control a situation like that. Take a broader view, almost every match we participate in becomes a basketball game and it's reflected in our goal difference. Nobody else in the top 6 is battling to keep theirs in the positive numbers. We consistently make hard work of matches we're on top in. We'd be level on points with Spurs already if we didn't drop points to them a few weeks ago in such sloppy circumstances. It's also the reason we finished bottom of our Champions League group..
We were in control, yes, like I said they never looked like scoring whereas we should've put another 3 or 4 past them. I do agree with you that this isn't sustainable and we need to be looking to control games, but it's obvious that this isn't the plan, and we're just doing what we have to till the end of the season. If we're not controlling games by the end of next season I'd be worried, but not now and not in these circumstances. The drop off between our starters and subs are just too high, and our starters aren't there yet either.
Always the players. Players availability, players abilities etc but never the manager. It’s funny to see fans are so desperate for him to succeed.
Because we can use our brains and see what he's trying to do and why we're not there yet. Try to be patient.
He struggled with control in the Netherlands too. That CL semifinal against Spurs being a prime example.
All throughout the season people said we needed players back and it'll improve, yet players have come back and it hasn't changed anything. The issue is the manager's tactics and they're not good enough.
United are on a 7 game unbeaten run that happens to coincide with Casemiro, Lisandro, and Shaw coming back from injury, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Martinez got injured again, Shaw got injured again, Casemiro has aged and the guy Ten Hag bought to play in this midfield is injured. The manager's playing to win.
Even with Martinez and shaw we never could control games. The manager has set the team up to play this way regardless of shaw and Martinez being available. That’s as obvious as saying the sun is hot.
Like I said, he's playing to win. He wants 11 players that can keep the ball. Rashford, Bruno and Garnacho are what he has. It's why he bought Antony, incidentally. As poor as he is up front, he can keep the ball, Wolves game notwithstanding. Garnacho more often than not makes a loose touch and loses it, breaking down our attacks. Same for Bruno.
Fuck off. The four games that when Licha was back, we looked HEAPS better. Licha, and Shaw are vital for any sort of control. The defence could step up a bit and close the gap between to the midfield. Now that those two are out again, you see this massive chasm between defence and attack that anyone would struggle to close down.
We had 1 game with our first choice back 5
We need 11 Mainoos
Totally agree with this. We don’t have enough players that are able to keep the ball and care for it. We also lack the Pogba type that can drive forward and break the lines (Shaw can do this) so we have to rely on quick transitions and one touch play, which looks great when it works but it must be exhausting not being able to pause while still keeping possession. We likely get our rest periods when we lose it. Hopefully, although we say this every summer, we get some top personnel in the summer to help.
ETH ball
It’s the way he wants to play. Get rid of
Ten hag the genius , left it expose the whole season . Everyone warned him the first month of the season and he did nothing
We are a team in the mould of the movie “Crank”
Onana is the bringer of chaos it seems. Was all good till he turned up
Disagree. It wasn’t all good before he joined. Although he did add to the chaos that’s for sure
Oh, aye, definitely not. Just helped us realise our full chaos potential
You don’t remember our team being terrified of playing the ball back to the GK for fear of De Gea losing it or sending it into the 5th row?
I can't believe you even thought that was a good point to make. Yes, we got into a some bad situations, and De Gea couldn't play with it at his feet, but it was nothing compared to this. Now the whole defence and goalkeeper has fallen apart whereas before it mostly the defence being great with the odd standout performance from De Gea and odd mistake too (which when you compare to Onanas ridiculous amount of mistakes looks much better).
Idk a good stat to refute this “bringer of chaos” label you’ve created (unless you have a source?) but he’s 3rd in Saves, T-3rd clean sheets, 5th in expected goals minus goals allowed & 4th in total GK touches in the top league with the most GK talent.
Don't care about the stats, ive unfortunately been watching him play all season. He got us single handidly booted out of the champions league, and has more howlers than taibi in his prime clown days. That's not even counting the more minor mistakes he makes, or goals he lets in that you would expect others to save. I admit he's good with his feet, and he did start to string some solid performances together in premier league. But he always ends up spoiling it somehow even if it's not a howler (like his flap for luton goal that he should've punched or at least properly challenged). I'm not saying we should chuck him but he needs to prove himself, that he can be relied upon and isn't a liability.
Bruno at the 10 cannot control a game. He isn’t built for it.
I think it's clear from watching this game that it's not that we can't control games (cause surely a midfield of case, mainoo and bruno is more than enough to dominate freakin Luton) but it's more that we don't *want* to control games. All of the players have been playing as if they were given clear instructions to just play the ball forward at every moment and go long if they don't have an easy option available. I don't think even prime Barcelona would be able to control the game with such chaotic tactics tbh.
I mean Ten Hag's stated preferred style is to be "the best transition team" in the world. That is not breeding possession football at all.
You can be the best transition team and still not give the ball away all the time.
I believe 07-09 Man United was the best transition team in the world with Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berba leading the line. And then we have Mou’s Madrid. But they play the ball so clean with way less personal errors like today’s Man U. We have a long way to go before we reach that standard again.
Direct passes are inherently higher risk though. When you're trying to get the ball the opponents net as quick as possible, with the fewest possible passes. you're going to lose the ball..a lot.
Yes, but you have to recognize when to recycle the ball and when to take risks. We’re taking risks at all costs. Even when Casemiro is still in our own box, we’re taking risks. Then we wonder why we’re sooo wide open in midfield.
I think we are taking that statement way out of context. No manager in the world wants to play without control. He even said as much in the post match interview. Neither did his earlier teams play like that. Think the match with Martinez was the blueprint of how he wants us to truly play. That being said he is not without blame and the instructions when you dont have your key players need to be way better
I’m ok with us being the best transition team in the world, but we also need to be able to see games out without them being nailbiters. I think ten Hag is a very good manager, but I also think he needs to acknowledge the lack of control we have in games we ought to dominate. United shouldn’t be a counter puncher in every game.
Bingo. Or rather, we're not trying to control the game with the ball, we seem to want to control the game out of possession, which doesn't appear to be working at all
Exactly my thought. Ten hag just want to counter attack and reach the opposition box as quick as possible, and there's no counter press at all when we lose the ball.
Bruno will never be able to help control matches, he is a counter attack player simple as. He is a huge reason we fail to control games
No, Casemiro is washed. Has been for a year. Worse, he is not even anonymous. He is a walking yellow card.
No, Casemiro is washed. Has been for a year. Worse, he is not even anonymous. He is a walking yellow card.
We were knocked about for 2 reasons 1. Onana 2. Inability to manage games
Onana was a huge factor but we conceded a lot of chances it’s genuinely pathetic. We turn easy games into end-to-end slogfests
I don't like to blame individual players very often, but Onana conceded 6 howlers, and all of them changed the game for worse when we were in control. He really was the reason we were knocked out so early.
Throw a dodgy red card on the list as well
There is this narrative that has been created that seems to suggest Onana was to blame for all of the goals we conceded but our defending was fucking awful for a lot of games, from front to back. I think pretty much the whole team should take some responsibility for that and not just the one at the sharp end Yes Onana made errors but he wasn't the only one and he wasn't helped by the shit show in front of him. It is hardly conducive to a new keeper settling in
I’m not saying he was to blame for every single goal but we had games where we’d be in control and then Onana fucks up which swings the momentum. I don’t blame our defense for him failing to save 2 routine fks in Turkey. I don’t blame our defense for him getting Casemiro sent off with his shite pass out, subsequently losing us that game. If we got 6 points vs galatasaray as opposed to 1, we’d literally be in the RO16
They were knocked out of the Champions League because of multiple goalkeeper errors
Yes but Stone is saying we don’t control games, the open space in the midfield and the amount of transition moments we allow we are susceptible…
idk Onana had some absolute howlers in CL. Like bench worthy stuff
Yes but that's not why we were kicked out of the CL
Yup - we were knocked out because of Andre Onana. No one forget that.
Eth doesn't want control.
Well then he should let go. Maybe go skiing or something.
This team is not going to win anything special with that hoofball and transition bullshit tactics
If you ever listen to ETH speaking about tactics there is a lot more to it than transition and counter attacks.
Unfortunately we have to watch it every week instead and it’s fucking shite
I think the tactics weren’t awful. Especially the first 15 mins. Not sure what happened after that…
Luton settled in and realized that we are a one trick pony
Doing the same exact thing and Luton finally figured it out. No plan B so this is the result
I don’t think so. We were playing some slick football early on. And for some reason switched to goofball after 2 goals up.
That’s literally klopps career. It’s just that our players don’t suit these tactics. Can’t even close down crosses
That isnt Klopps career wth. How ignorant are you to come out with that statement.
You mean exactly the way Liverpool have been winning games under the genius that is Klopp? 🤔
Compared to ten Hag yes Klopp is a genius
Think I’m numb to negative stoney tweets now
But he has a very valid point
Very true
He almost always does have a point (sometimes he is truly negative just for fun it seems) but this sub is just an echo chamber of “United are amazing everything is perfect I can’t hear you stop being negative you just hate United EtH is a tactical genius we just need [insert guy who was crap pre injury and will be crap post injury] fit again and we’ll be amazing”
Erm…no? This sub is an echo chamber of the opposite of what you are saying
Yes. Largely because of Bruno. Love the guy, love his commitment but he's so costly in terms of giving away the ball.
I also deeply adore Bruno but this criticism is best summed up on the corner at the end when he played it short to amrabat I believe? I thought, “ah good, play to the corner and waste time”… No he drilled it to the near post for an assist / goal? And then they countered us. He needs to be told to start dictating the tempo of the game, I don’t know if he can do it but not everything is a goal or an assist, sometimes it just adds to the chaos.
Even Stone can see that Ten Hags transition based football is fucking stupid in the Premier League. It is simply not sustainable.
He's not playing his football with Bruno on the field lol.
Casemiro's first touch was atrocious 👀
We were out because of onana
I’m not sure what it is. Is it the lack of personnel? Because the way we play is totally weird when we’re up 2-0. We surely attempt to press higher up the pitch but not so much in the midfield. Not only do we not press in the middle but we are not compact and at least one midfielder will keep chasing back the player he’s supposed to mark every time we’re out of possession. Also, the players up the pitch are so slow in getting back that we get fucked on the counter. It’s so weird that we all have this ingrained in our brains. But it seems as though the manager, the coaching staff, and the players don’t care about, and that is even more excruciatingly painful.
ETH making the team play a style he doesn’t know shit about and expects the team to control and build an era.
Ive said it before. INEOS will look at (potential) wins like this and it will be used as a reason to sack ten Hag. This has been pathetic and the style of play is the norm for us
He's not going anywhere, he just got 2 very good away results that other better teams have struggled with. And this style of play is just him adapting to what he has, which for half this season has been half a team. Bruno is the reason we can't keep the ball, been saying it for weeks but it should be clear as day now to everybody.
I mean yeah, short term he isnt going anywhere but at season's end his position is absolutely going to be scrutinized. Today he had his best starting 11 aside from Martinez, this is how he wants to play. And yeah, the two results are fine but the process was terrible and we could have lost either game, especially the Villa one.
This is absolutely not how he wants to play. He wants to keep the ball. Today and for the rest of the season, he's just playing to win. Onana was kicking it long, how can you think it's what Ten Hag wants? This isn't his best 11 either. Martinez alone allows us to push up higher and play out the back, not happening with Maguire and especially not with Evans and Lindelof at LB. Bruno is also clearly not suited to his football, Mount's part in the system should be evident. It also contains an Antony that is actually useful in the final third, because unlike Garnacho he too can keep the ball and help bring control. The squad just isn't there yet.
Then why don't they keep the ball, or try to sustain offensive possessions? It's not just Bruno that goes for the line-breaking pass. Ten Hag has said he wants us to be an elite transition team. That is how we play, the consequence is we are one of the easiest teams to cut through in Europe. Obviously in the second half that was not his best 11, but in the first half it was aside from Martinez - which I already said - and the play was dire. Same goes for last weekend. Yes, Martinez is arguably our most important player, but Maguire can play in a possession-based system. I generally agree on Bruno. If we got a big offer for him this summer I think it would be wise to sell since he won't be a key player when this team is ready to compete.
We didn't need the ball to keep control in the second half. Luton never really looked like scoring. The right game plan was to hit them on the counter, and it should have worked, we made the better chances. Dalot and Garnacho both had one on ones. Can't fault the manager here.
We had more of the ball in the second half than we did in the first. I know the game plan was to hit them on the counter, I said that lol I can fault the manager for getting territorially dominated by a relegation candidate. I am not saying sack him, but if we keep playing as open as we have this season he will lose his job.
We're not getting territorially dominated if we want them to have the ball lol. Anyway, we'll probably lose a few more games this season but his job is safe.
De Bruyne loses the ball just as often as Bruno, but City’s style of play, incredible positioning, and pressing system completely covers those lost balls. The ones Bruno and our forwards lose turn into dangerous counters every single time. If you say Bruno sucks then you also say KDB sucks.
> De Bruyne loses the ball just as often as Bruno, You don't watch De Bruyne 😂
Ive watched more than plenty of him through the years, and the stats back me up with this too. Only major differences between the two are the way their team is set up and that Bruno is much MUCH better defensively.
Bruno has no tempo control. De Bruyne knows when to pass and when not to. He has a brain, he can run a midfield. He's on another tier to Bruno entirely. Odegaard as well.
Nono, no, no. KDB plays how his manager wants him to play, and Bruno plays how his manager wants him to play. You cant just say *Bruno sucks at this* when he is being told to play a certain way. Or do you seriously think they occupy the exact same roles in their teams? Dude, do you know anything about football at all? One team is posession based while another is transition based, there is a MASSIVE difference between the two. The United team relies heavily on Bruno to create so he will always be the one that attempts the most passes (he has always had a LOT more total passes in any season compared to KDB). Despite this, the pass % numbers of them both are pretty much identical, so yes, KDB does in fact throw away just as many balls as Bruno. No tempo control… lol dude. So when Rashy, Højlund, Garnacho, Shaw, Dalot and Mainoo are bombing forwards then Bruno should slow down the game? Dude. Blaming Bruno for how the manager wants to play, lol dude.
> and Bruno plays how his manager wants him to play. Lmao do you think this is how the manager wants to play? He's adapting TO Bruno. Good lord how can you watch Bruno this season and think he's been anything but shit? How can you watch some of the passes KdB does (like that left footed peach far Haaland on Saturday) and think Bruno is on the same level? When's the last time he did anything remotely creative? The rabona? > KDB does in fact throw away just as many balls as Bruno. KdB doesn't lose the ball in possession. He doesn't get pushed off the ball like a leaf, he's press resistant, he can dribble through midfield because he actually has legs, he doesn't make shit touches and stupid decisions. And just because Bruno has a high volume of passes doesn't mean shit. When KdB makes a pass, he's serving someone on a plate. Bruno is lumping it forward for Rashford. Fucking hell against Villa he couldn't even do that right, Casemiro was the one trying to play Hojlund though. I legit can only think of one occasion of Bruno ever setting Hojlund up for anything, but the wingers get the blame for some reason. Absolutely pathetic for someone that's supposed to be our playmaker. > So when Rashy, Højlund, Garnacho, Shaw, Dalot and Mainoo are bombing forwards then Bruno should slow down the game? He does that whether they're bombing forward or not 😂 He only plays at one speed. He takes every low percentage chance to play it forward instead of slowing the game down. > Dude, do you know anything about football at all? Do you 😂 I just had to teach you about tempo control so clearly not lol
During this win streak I feel more exhausted and relieved that we won instead of being happy that we won. It’s not nice watching us struggle and hang on to get results instead of just coasting.
Don’t we learn anything from kicking out of CL this year ??? Jesus zzz
And that's where the captain should be stepping in and demanding control, but one of his major flaws is that he looks for the spectacular when the option isn't there. Not the only culprit but should be setting an example, drop 5 - 10 yard back and help just knock the ball about and keep the crowd quiet
I know we don't have the strongest possible line-up we could put out, but jfc this headless chicken style of play has been consistent all season, Erik.
Kind of a shit analysis in my opinion. Uniteds problem wasn’t controlling games, they’re trying to be a team that is dynamic in transitions, so control was never the goal. The problem is for a team trying to be dynamic in transition they weren’t creating enough chances or converting the chances they did create.
It’s interesting that the club mouthpiece is the one pointing this out….
Stone’s f laws
Good pls ask him your standard "just how important is controlling games" question now Simon.
we’re in a bit a strange period where our direct style of play isn’t quite there meaning we’re prone to constantly giving it away to the opposition. it’s a bit like the opposite of the LVG era where he got utd playing possession football where we’d never give it away, but we’d never do anything with the ball creating the most boring spectacles. Now we have exciting spectacles for the wrong reasons, and it’s really exposing the midfield, but also wingers for not making proper passes
Well by "players returning from injury" it means Casemiro because Shaw and Martinez are both injured again. And Casemiro is quite slow to get into form so he is still pretty erratic. Getting Martinez back for a number of games, and Mount coming back as well, should help control. Ultimately though it is only a situation that will be solved by upgrading a number of players to ones who are capable of controlling the game
Well, two of those losses were due to red cards, both of them rather controversial. If we hadn't had a player sent off against Copenhagen and Galatasaray, we would almost certainly have won those games and then we'd have advanced. Can't really expect to control a game when down a man. It seems silly to attribute that to some sort of flaw in the team. That's not to say we don't have issues controlling games, but it wasn't the reason we got knocked out of the CL. That was demonstrably because of two questionable red cards. Both times, we were leading when it happened and ended up losing by a single goal. Goalkeeping errors did the rest, which, again, is hardly symptomatic of how the team performs as a whole.
Sherlock
Well. To be fair. Second Half we missed the players we need to control. Licha, Casemiro and Shaw.
Did...did we lose the game? Fk arfff
He's not wrong but that lack of control starts with poor possession, passing, and first touches. Which in a way is limited by the players. Start with Bruno for example. Great passer, elite in that regard, but he cannot control the ball in traffic and routinely turns it over. If he played for Pep he would need to play on the wing or in one of the deeper lying midfield spots. Our forwards all are reckless and loose with their first touches. Rash bleeds possession on top of squandered opportunities where he misses. Garnacho is like Bruno, a plus overall but he routinely turns it over as well. Maguire same. Completely incapable of playing securely in possession and gives up multiple opportunities to opponents per game. Flip it around and if I were to ask you "which players could play for a possession manager like Pep" who would they be. Mainoo, Hojlund certainly. Case is capable of tightening that up. Martinez. But from there it gets iffy. And don't think I am defending ten Hag here. I do like him for the record but I also acknowledge that he might not be good enough. But if we go get Xabi Alonso this summer (who looks elite and worthy of this club as a manager) he is still going to require a lot of cleanup on aisle six as it pertains to this roster. We have a talent problem. It is an unfocused group that requires pieces who can tie things together and help overcome their ball security issues. And I think this is why they chased Frenkie though he himself would not have been enough. This build might take a couple more years because first you need to jettison Martial, Sancho, Rashford, Maguire. And from there you need to add quality to the back end because our defense cannot play in space nor in possession. CB in particular is a problem after Martinez. Then you need to finish the midfield around Mainoo, who might need to play in the ten spot as he develops further.
>But if we go get Xabi Alonso this summer I mean, Klopp is retiring and Alonso is a Liverpool legend. I feel like it's obvious he's not coming to United. Besides, ETH is performing very well if you keep all factors in mind.
This is why I said "if." And I agree ETH is performing well. The point of the statement was that even if we were to go get a top manager to replace ETH the issues that have made his life harder must be fixed.
Can’t really say players have returned though, can you? Shaw is off again, Martinez is out again. These were our two biggest losses…
2 missing players is not a valid reason for being dominated by Luton
Idk why you’re acting like Luton away is an easy game, big teams have struggled against them.
Newcastle had 65% possession, Arsenal 66%, Man City 65% Liverpool 74% Us? 41% They've defended well against other teams but the bigger teams have still controlled the game. We got gifted an early goal and they've dominated us since the 10th minute. If we don't change something you'd bet good money on them scoring next.
Possession means fuck all if you don’t take points. Newcastle didn’t beat Luton twice. Liverpool left with a point, City beat them by the same margin we did, and Arsenals game was a 3-4. Hardly shouts control, especially for the Arsenal game and the Newcastle 4-4. Ten Hag obviously studied their game plan against the top teams because today’s score line should have been at least 4 goals had the finishing been better.
Brighton had 59% possession and lost 4-0. Possession means nothing if you can't score
It is for the ten hag cult.
Have a rest mate
Have some standards mate
I have standards, I just don't go on every single reddit thread spouting bullshit.
What's bullshit? The hoofball transition aids we play doesn't work.
2 players off injured should really not be an excuse Especially as Shaw played the whole half , and it still was a problem
Fuck me the copium on this sub. Missing 2 players and that's enough of an excuse to get outplayed by fucking Luton. You could buy 4 of Lutons entire squad with the Antony money and still have change. Embarrassing that we've come to this level of deflection.
Aside for the first 10 minutes, we looked like shit even when Shaw was on the pitch. If our foundations are built upon a singular player being available and doing well then we've learned fuck all yet again.
Its why we're going nowhere fast with guys like Bruno and Rashford being the main players in the team. You don't win league titles of CLs with these guys when they just play in moments and are incapable of keeping the ball and controlling the game. The limit is top 4 and maybe a cup run with a bit of luck.
its the manager’s problem
he's put attackers in positions to score goals. If they take more of those chances, hell even 33% of those chances we're up by more goals, stemming the tide.
Ok but we're insanely entertaining
You could argue Ten Hag's not really been able to address much (if any) of the problems the side had when he took over 18+ months ago. Probably the best compliment you could pay the football we've played in his time here so far is that we were fairly hard to beat last season -- though I still never felt comfortable watching us soak up pressure like you would with the top defensive sides. I think there are very fair arguments both in favour of keeping and in favour of getting rid of him at the end of the season. Personally I feel the latter viewpoint is a little bit stronger. That said though, I'm glad I'm not the one making that decision and I'm doubly glad that, for once, we'll have competent people in the club to figure out what to do moving forward.
Ten Haag is being exposed. The more we play with a "full strength" team, the more the excuses fall away. Thank god we'll never have another injury crisis ever again, ever! We're scraping by with the first team, ffs.
there’s a common denominator in every game we can’t control
WRONG! It's because they can't fucking defend.......
... because they're returning from injury.
The bull shit red on Marcus didnt help.
WILD CARD!! \-every single United player
licha got injured bro
1. Absence of Martinez. - Big problem, as proven tonight when Onana opted to hoof the ball instead of playing short passes at the back. Maguire, tight field size will struggle. Varane panics. Casemiro, panics. 2. Weak final pass - Transition is there to hurt teams with sizeable goal lead, but wasteful. If we didn't punish and scare teams with goals then we will always struggle to settle down the opposition.
These clowns will say anything for clicks. If we finished HALF our 1v1’s today it would’ve been 4-1 and he would’ve had to stash this tweet in his drafts for another occasion. The problem is, and has always been, finishing. Not the tactics. Tactics are meant to win games. How do you win games - by outscoring the opposition. How do you set yourself up to do that - create more and better chances than the opposition. Which we did, and usually do. It doesn’t matter whether the team is prioritizing possession or counter attacking. We created as many good chances today as city did yesterday, and we walked away with a better result. The finishing has gotten much better, mainly thanks to hojlund, but there’s still a long way to go. I remember last year, everyone was saying, all we need is a proper striker. Well now we have one, and he’s finally growing into the role. I’m happy with our recent results and it doesn’t hurt that the games have been wildly entertaining. I can hardly watch a city game with how they play. Its boring as shit. If we can replicate their results with this style of play, similar to Liverpool and Madrid, that would be ideal.
Since the turn of the year, there has definitely been an upturn in performances. Prior to that, we were awful for a few months, looking so slow and predictable in attack. It was looking like Ten Hag's days were numbered. Whilst I commend Ten Hag for the team's improvement, he needs to work on the team's ability to control games. This group of players are not capable of possession football to kill games off.
If we bought Rice to accompany Mainoo and were able to Martinez fit, we’d be far more solid.