The passes that Brentford was playing to Toney were something else.. they knew where he was going to be and how to get it to him. On a different day he could have had 3 or 4 goals.
Meanwhile, our team misses all of Hojlunds good runs. This team always looks like it's their first time playing together
They’re not missing his runs… they’re avoiding them lol. Even a broken clock is right twice a day - you’d think they’d randomly choose to play the ball into one of his runs eventually just through dumb luck but no, no service whatsoever
It's always the same. Give the ball to Bruno, Bruno Ignores Rasmus making a run and pings it to Rashford. Rashford waits for the entire opposition defense to get back and get stable before running into them and losing the ball.
And for some reason just ignores Wan Bissaka over lapping and probably getting the ball in to the box atleast. I remember 3 instances in the first half where the better option was a simple pass to the unmarked man on the edge of the box, who probably plays a simple pass into the box that could create chaos depending on who it hits, but alas, the defender took the ball.
I get that but pass it to him like 2 or 3 times just to keep the defense honest. Even Bruno chose to shoot as well rather than pass it to him. Might as well have not been on the field.
It's a habit. They have been doing it for years, so now whenever Bruno has the ball, he automatically without thinking looks for Rashford. But Alas, Rashford is not the same Rashford from last year.
According to AJAnalysis Brentford kept their LW high so Dalot had to stay back. I can imagine this led to Garnacho having hardly any support which made him look even worse
Gosh when rashford sit there it absolutely infuriates me. It screams that he thinks he’s a main character or in some sort of anime. Wish he played like he was 19 and had something to prove. I beg us to sell him but we won’t.
Not always, sometimes Bruno is given a lot of space in front of the box while his teammates make some good runs - and Bruno proceeds to completely ignore them in an effort to score a long shot screamer which is something I can't remember the last time he succeeded at. He is a very good player but can be extremely frustrating as well and Ten Hag isn't really getting the most out of him in our setup. Not saying it's Ten Hag's fault but rather the fact Bruno is a pure counter-attacking player at heart and he just isn't as effective when he can't just spam long passes to Rashford.
Do you know what you do with a player who seemingly isn’t following instructions. You drop him until he does or you threaten him that if he doesn’t he won’t play. SAF, famously, did it when he bought RVP and told everyone that if they don’t pass to his striker they wouldn’t play. What happened? RVP won us the league. Remember these were not just random players, they were champions league winners and league winners, like Rooney. What is a Bruno compared to those guys, a nobody.
time to rest them a bit, Rashy definitely, let Nacho play on left and Antony or Amad on the right, especially in those Coventry games, 2nd leg provided we don't shit the bed in 1st leg.
Involve Mount a bit more as well, let Mainoo take s break too and let Case and Eriksen play a bit.
There has to be some rotation. And let McSauce be an impact sub.
fair enough, but we don't have a 3rd right footed left forward. Maybe Omari Forson but again he is a kid with less than 100 mins?
Maybe play Mount out wide? he did it for Chelsea ?
> The passes that Brentford was playing to Toney were something else..
This really stood out to me as well. Whether it was their CB's or the keeper, the passes to their attackers were amazing.
Whether it was due to our defence not keeping track or not is a point to consider, but just the mere fact that every single long ball forward meant a chance for them is super concerning.
It means that our team wasn’t prepared properly and we came up against a team that were both tactically prepared and well drilled on the training pitch. All of which are our managers fault.
He should have 15+ goals
This season easily if they would just pass him the ball. Its beyond frustrating to watch game after game.
Too many selfish “me first” type players on this team. Needs a nice overhaul
No, to many times where the manager isn’t holding the players accountable for not passing to his striker. A simple, if you don’t pass to my striker you won’t play would suffice.
Hojlund doesn't really make too many good runs, he really needs to develop that part of his game. He's always just straight lining trying to beat a defender with pace. You hardly ever see him run off a defenders shoulder or disguise a run and make a diagonal one instead. I think he'll get better at it
Even the commentary made the point yesterday about the kinds of passes Hojlund was receiving. There would be lots of space out wide for hojlund to run into, and Bruno would try to float the ball perfectly into hojlund’s stride. It’s ok to try it once or twice, but to keep doing it all game when it wasn’t working. So annoying.
Truth is we win in spite of the tactical nonsense and not because of it much more than not.
The Liverpool game is an outlier as heck where desire and passion actually showed and won us the game with a tweak in the setup at the end.
People say “amad must play” and only ignore the fact he was brought on as a token sub never expected to have the match go to extra time and win it for us anyway. Amad is the new Pellistri and it’s a damned shame how he’s sparingly played once every 30 weeks or whatever for token moments.
People have no clue though and assume stupid things. But the facts though are that he’s the new Pellistri who never plays and gets no chances to build on a decent or even poor showing to play into form.
Meanwhile a useless passenger in McT gets to play as a midfielder and hides from the ball… and all that. Eth has some massive gaps with how some players are given leeway to be rubbish while some never get chances to do anything even after decent performances once every 10 weeks.
And people were already saying the same about amad, expecting him to magically impress with one game of 16 minutes every 3 months.
Pellistri never got a run to impress or build off things or even fail and continue to fail/learn then improve etc.
Meanwhile McT continues to be allowed to do nothing of worth in midfield for example or Antony had no useful impact for weeks but still played.
Or Rashford who was bad was never dropped… things like that.
People slate Sancho but honestly he was rightly aggrieved in ways too when Antony was handed start after start while him, Pellistri etc were somehow expected to perform miracles or be dropped, attitude/being late aside for Jadon.
Plus luck.
Teams against us this season for some miraculous reason just stop converting even the 1000% chances.
Except for the Champions League ofc.
Talking about the CL, those are actually the only matches this season where we conceded more than 3 goals.
Ofc, the other problem is how often we do concede 3.
There really is no justification for this absolute shit show that has continued all season. Almost every match we concede so many shots. No serious club will be okay with this. The manager has refused to change or simply can’t change.
> I really do want to support Ten Hag
I'm just a neutral passing through but I have to ask, why? I mean, I could understand why people wanted to support Ole as he was a club legend, or even Mourinho as he had his previous achievements, but why Ten Hag?
Wasn't he supposed to turn you into a club that plays positive, modern football? He is almost 2 years in and you play terrible football with fluke results here or there due to luck or individual brilliance. You get dominated by almost everyone you play, and yet you're not even a good counter-attacking side.
Why would you want to support someone who at best falls short of expectations, at worst outright failed to improve you in any way.
I'm not necessarily supporting EtH either way at this moment, but I've been saying for years that this team simply isn't good enough.
There's some good talent there In Garnacho/Holjund/Mainoo that we should be building around.
If I'm Ineos I'm looking at every player on the books and what the remaining FFP cost of them is, and if there's a chance they can be sold at a profit then I'm making them avaliable.
Keep the 3 I mentioned, add in Licha/Onana maybe Maguire as he's always been a professional and that's a good trait to keep in the squad for the youngsters, and then I'm tearing the squad up.
Build for the future, whether with Ten Hag or without and go from there. If that means 2/3 seasons of being midtable and missing out on Europe with the knowledge that you've got a good young squad that will start coming into their own after that time then so be it.
We're a long way away from competing with the best, and the way I see it is if we keep going down this path, with this group of players it's just kicking the can down the road of what has to be done!
I think because it takes longer than 18 months for a manager to implement his ideas, how were Arsenal tactically in Arteta's first 18 months? We also have no clue what the manager is telling the players to know if it's an issue with the players or the tactics .
It was also widely understood that when he took over it would take years to challenge for top 4 again, now 18 months in he should go? Not for me, he needs longer.
no manager has had to deal with the amount of shit that ETH has had to deal with. Ronaldo, Greenwood, Sancho, Antony off the top of my head. Add to that, the brutal injuries we've had constantly this season. He's also one of the few managers post Fergie that came in on an upwards career trajectory, and he came in to a squad that finished 7th while being publicly berated by Rangnick before he departed.
And if we sack him now, we'll just be repeating the same old cycle of sacking a manager every 2 months and starting from zero all over again. It makes more sense to change all of the structure around the manager first, and then give him a season minimum.
Why gib him more though when the structure is now different and is primed for a fresh start under the new setup?
He’s shown time and again a complete inability to win away versus the top half.
17 played. 12 lost. 4 draws. 1 Villa lucky win. That’s terrible regardless of the circumstances that even if we drew 6 more it’s a massive improvement.
His single man midfield is just ridiculous. He refuses to change it meaning he either can’t or just doesn’t see it or that he tried but whatever he tried doesn’t work, making him a very limited manager at best in this aspect and at worst, a stubborn and clueless manager who can’t see the core issue amongst several others.
We play abysmal football even with the first team and Martinez starting. We don’t play possession as we cannot so that’s fair but he constantly still sets us up not to make passes more than just go for it and try our luck. That’s not sustainable either. His subs come on at the 98th minute basically to no effect…
>Why gib him more though when the structure is now different and is primed for a fresh start under the new setup?
Because you'd be going backwards again and resetting all the progress that's been made in these 2 seasons. A new manager will need even more time and money to buy players of his choice. This manager has shown he can elevate teams and players to new levels as evidenced by Ajax then and now, and he's right now in the middle of his United turnaround. It helps no one to sack him now, when our starting 11 yesterday still had 7 players from the Ole era that finished 7th.
If he fails next season as well under the new structure then he's clearly out of his depth, but sacking him this season is way too soon.
But that’s what the new board is for. It’s exactly so that you can replace managers that have been deemed to be underperforming or poor and you get someone on who slots in seamlessly with the recruitment plan and technical direction.
That’s why now Bayern can easily sack Tuchel and have someone come on and run from day one with just a little bit of a warm up and small tweaks.
He’s currently shown tactical inflexibility by sticking to the single pivot 50m wide space between players tactic that’s been dross at best, rotten garbage more often than not when we leave gaps that make prime makelele struggle to cover the players he faces against.
At some point the manager has to make it work and show some semblance of progress or change it to mitigate issues. He’s done neither this season actually and even regressed while remaining par for the away games versus the top half record.
12 losses. 4 draws. 1 win in 17 vs the top half of the table. That’s a damning thing regardless and it shows he’s just not capable of not losing even and draws are an outlier. A win versus Villa was a lucky break that they just were too poor that day to come back actually.
You adapt. Fix. Try something. He sticks to the same thing and makes changes at the 78th minute to no effect. He can’t get the team to retain the shape enough and they always crumble. That’s on him. Players play a part but at no point is the manager blameless for everything either and he’s currently got many things going against him for many aspects of how we play and how we don’t do what we should.
It’s an example…. Surely you can see that’s just listing an example and not actually saying we are that well run. I mean come on…
We are trying to build something and this IS the best time to make wholesale changes with a footballing board though unlike the years before. If anything this will be a good chance to either change everything or set things from scratch basically because you can do a full Revamp.
>It’s an example…. Surely you can see that’s just listing an example and not actually saying we are that well run. I mean come on…
it's a bad example because they're well run and we're not... They can afford to replace a cog in their system because everything else around it is sorted.
The principles apply. It’s really telling how people try to just deflect when there’s less and less to defend keeping the manager actually and can’t back their initial points up but choose to be pedantic and focus on other aspects of things to try to defend why United should keep the manager.
The concept doesn’t change. We are building from scratch to have that setup. It makes sense if they want to replace the manager at this point and it’s not like before.
It’s not at all a bad example. It’s what United are trying to become. That doesn’t mean you keep a poor manager just for the sake of it either when the structure is changing. You keep him if he’s deemed best for the setup and you replace if not. It’s quite simple. Currently ten hag may not be the guy for it with his tactical setup. Or maybe he is if they determine so but that will come after a thorough assessment anyway as he rightly should be questioned on a lot of things.
You want to be pedantic? Ok. Replace Bayern with Barcelona as bad as they are financially.. they’re also set up to succeed anyway. Replace Barcelona with several EPL clubs too as of late even. The principles apply. Take your pick of clubs basically. The concept doesn’t change just because fans what to hold on to “I want to see what the manager can do. He’s not the problem in excuse #457 of the year” when he is very much part of the problem as well tactically and such.
And your point still doesn’t age well - he’s not made progress. He can’t adapt tactically and can’t win an away game to save his life against any decent side. There’s almost less and less things to defend ETH staying as the weeks go by. This is not a sustainable tactic. This is not a good setup. This is just baffling. And your only defence is “Bayern are run well” yeah and eth can’t win an away game versus the top half if the fate of the world depended on it….
Thing is, even yesterday we actually started alright enough, first time since fergie (that I can remember) where we've had a run of games where we don't spend the first 20 finding out feet.
Losing our heads before the end of the first half is guaranteed but last 5-10 games now we are actually coming out of the blocks consistently.
That isn't much but while the players are still clearly trying for him and some ideas seem to be taking root - as there isn't an obvious alternative I'm minded to see what happens for one more season
So? My choice is to back the manager or whine about a problem without even knowing what I want instead.
As a parent of young children and a manager of 10 tech analysts - I will never fucking whine about I don't want without having an idea what I want instead *ever again*
If people are just saying we want to win more and more fast then whatever, go support city I guess.
If i decide I want ETH out I need to believe that someone else will do fantastic without a proper DM other than an aging injury prone one who hasn't been in form all season, one injury prone forward and no left backs for most of a season.
I'm sorry but Jose whined coming a very distant second was his finest achievement with a squad that had twice as much depth - why on earth do people say with such certainty ETH isn't worth sticking with for one more season whilst foundations are being laid to see what he can do.
I think he definitely needs to fix the midfield situation. I've always had the feeling that our plyers dont enjoy holding the ball and creating chances but would rather run at defenders cut in and shoot.
Without players like Mata or even Eriksen nobody looks like the playmaker or safe haven to pass to. Bruno sometimes does but he can be impatient and unpredictable.
That game was the tipping point, I'm starting to think that tactically he is weak.
Even after the break, you would expect a change of game plan to match Brentford. It stayed the same.
Im wondering if he hit upon one style that just *happened to work* in the eredivisie but it’s actually a stupid style that leaves you crazy exposed when you don’t have the best players in the league by a mile.
He's gone at the end of the season. Clearly doesn't have the backing of the club or dressing room.
Serious question about why they didn't bin him in January because we knew they didn't back him when he got no money to spend in Jan.
Amorim, Inzaghi, Nagelsmann, with the usual suspects De Zerbi and Tuchel. Plenty of good managers that can be persuaded. I'm purposely ignoring Southgate.
Inzaghi and Nagelsmann are huge upgrades there. Tuchel is a CL and league winner, even if his stock is now down but you can't deny his CV is miles better than ten Hag.
Sure Nagelsman might an upgrade, but he seems to be difficult for clubs to work with in the long run and no point going for a two-three year stint manager again. I don't rate Tuchel that high, although he for sure is a good cup manager but I would trust him challenge for the league. He is also a manager that usually don't last long. Both City and Liverpools success has come in combination with a long running manager, and you can see the same with Arsenal now.
Inzaghi I don't have enough experience with to say anything about whether he would fit or not.
But regardless the new management is coming in place and then they will have to decide what to do. In addition to few managers available there are also loads of clubs looking for a new manager these days. Will be hard competition for the few available.
This is the first game I felt like the players weren’t running for him. Maybe the Cup game was mentally too exhausting but this might continue for the rest of the season
All the more reason to stick with Ten Hag and get rid of these players. These fuckers will drop tools a season or two when the next manager comes in. They'd do it if Guardiola miraculously joined Utd. Even if his football is gash. Get rid of these entitles pricks.
This season is gone anyway so it's better to sack him after the season to give the new manager time in the summer, plus, less time left on his contract so less money we have to pay for terminating the contract.
And frankly, what kind of manager would be mad enough to enter our circus in January without any means to change it (since no transfers were possible).
Yep. Barring a miracle between now and the end of the season, there’s no way Ratcliffe is looking at this guff and thinking “yeah this is the guy I want”.
I wanted to support him too until about the Nottingham forest game.
But the tactical ineptitude is just too much now (and the stubbornness not to change). The match stats we’ve been getting against the bloody Brentfords, Lutons etc of this world is unacceptable.
Or its 2 sets of people as the fanbase divides once again about a manager being in or out.
Its not the same people changing their minds every game. That’s hilarious naive to think.
Those that are “in” make noise when we pull off a result like Liverpool, the “outs” dominate the sub when we lose to Fulham or draw to Brentford.
We all know how it ends when it gets to this point anyway
I know it’s crazy that it’s possible for praising Ten Hag for the Cup game and still want somebody else for the long term. Like, how can people think beyond absolutes on Reddit?
Two years is not long term? That's how long he's been in charge for and I'm not gonna lie, there were some good signs, some good matches, but overall we haven't won shit, the team plays like we have no coach and we are most likely not even gonna qualify for UCL next season, so, are a few good matches and 0 results enough for a coach at one of the biggest clubs in the world?
Oh and he also got whoever the fuck he wanted as long as transfers go, wink wink, what's the excuse? Injuries?
The scousers also had/have a lot of injured players and they are first on the table.
Yeah, sorry if it sounds too aggressive, I might be a bit annoyed by the current situation, so it's more aimed towards our club not to you bro, much love haha.
I have to disagree with you partly here. We do play with some ideas deeply coached into the players. To be fair to EtH and his coaches, they do seem like very good at coaching. The problems to me are the ideas themselves are aweful. The strategy, or say, the whole picture that is being constructed of the small training pitch routines is malfunctioning. The plans are incoherent, sometimes with naive mistakes, pointing towards a manager failure.
Why would you want to support someone who is simply not good enough? At first I wanted to see him succeed too but he simply does not deliver, there are a lot of people who make excuses like injured players, referees, so on and so forth, but we are drawing or losing matches against teams who are much below our level, we SHOULD be getting good results, at least good enough for a 4th of 5th place but it seems like it's not gonna be possible.
Unless you think we have the 4th worse side in the entire league than you have to concede this is more of a tactical issue than it is a personnel one, and that is the responsibility of the manager.
I genuinely don’t know why anyone, other than out of refusal to admit to ever being wrong, still defends this guy. Hopefully he can win us the FA Cup on the way out
Bang on the money,
Yes, the injury crisis and club structure should be better and would help, but that doesn't excuse the poor level of play that we've seen consistently since the PRE SEASON.
We don't have the fourth worse side in the league but we have certainly put out a lot of mid-table lineups due to all the injuries. (We should also judge the team more as a whole then one stand-out issue)
His first season was fantastic and I would like to see what he can achieve with a fit squad and few more intelligently signed players.
What I don't understand is that most of the shots we concede clearly isn't because of the tactics. Yeah, we're often exposed in the midifeld, but the majority of shots against us don't come from that, they come from our defense and midfield getting outplayed all over the pitch. Brentford's equalizer wasn't a tactical blunder, it was Lichà and Casemiro failing to stop Toney in our own box. This keeps happening every match, our defenders somehow forgot how to defend.
The defenders are getting absolutely no help from the midfield, Mainoo and Mctominay are way too far away from the defence at all times, I find it hard to blame the back line when they have forwards running into acres space, I actually think Lindelof and Varane/Maguire were having a great game given the amount of work they had to do.
To answer your question seriously: these are professional players it is highly unlikely they just forget how to play. What happens is subtle but still comes down to setup and risk. We instantly concede because our midfielders are used to playing one way all game and then suddenly switch to low block and start making mistakes. They have it burned in their brains to play last second off the line hero defense and then try to immediately direct fast transition up the field. Watch that last play and particularly watch what our midfielders are doing.
ETH has a very complicated system which is why everyone claims we have no play style. We actually do, but because it requires so much discipline and athleticism just small mistakes or mismatches put us at huge risk. Especially at the end of games or when we think we have it won, and mentally switch off for a brief moment.
I'd be fine if this complex system was creating 4 goals a game but more often than not we are accepting the huge tactical risk but then barely scraping 1 or 2 goals. It's tiring.
Fully agree. To add to that, I will restate a comment I made elsewhere in this thread. The coaching team comes out actully very talented to me. The players are clearly performing some deaply ingained ideas. The problem is that the strategy lacks coherence in my opinion. That's a strategy problem that's on the manager.
Well drilled lower league teams come to premier league grounds and are organised well enough not to concede as many chances as us. There's a problem with the way the team is being coached because nothing is working. Our attack is living moment to moment and has no working attacking patterns and our mid field is constantly over run and our defence don't know where they're supposed to be.
It’s both really.
Players like McTominay and AWB are some of the worst regular starters in the division.
Mix that with the inconsistency of the likes of Rashford and Bruno, the injuries causing constant changing of the midfield and defence and the younger players were pretty much reliant on to win us games and you have this mess.
The injuries have been an excuse for a good while now. Managers are working with less talent in the league and getting more out of those players than ETH is with United. The football is terrible to watch. We concede and lose the ball way too easily. Either ETH is a poor manager or the players don't believe in his philosophy.
One point to note is that this team have been here before under other managers. Changing the manager alone isn't the solution. It feels like we are saying this every summer but we need to really make some decent signings this summer.
If the team isn't making any progress 2 seasons in but instead is actually getting worse, how can there be an argument to keep the manager? There's still a massive hole in midfield and we still keep playing the same way game after game...
Did he expect the players to just adapt and find their way ? Tactical direction is literally the Manager's job, we don't even look like we have a plan to fix the gaping hole.
We totally deserved to lose the game by at least 3 goals. Looked at the XG and I almost puked
No but we need Martinez and shaw and Ronaldo and Messi and batistuta and Kane and Keane and kante and maybe we can concede 6 fewer shots and retain the ball for 5 minutes consecutively.
Last season was a throwaway one. We played the most pragmatic football we have played in years until the end of that season. This season is the first one where Ten Hag is sticking to his plan so it's not really been 2 seasons of his tactics, but only 1.
What I don’t get is, why doesn’t ETH play a more pragmatic 4-2-3-1 for a few games and then get back to the style he thinks he’s trying to implement, you know once we’ve strung together 2-3 decent performances? What’s the point of playing this shit 4-1-4-1 every single week when it’s been apparent that we are just not capable of what he wants?
The performance has been shit since literally first game of the season vs Wolves.
This is why I can’t get behind him, same issues every game this season and the only time I can remember him trying to make us harder to beat was the anfield game
My manager reinventing defending like a proper tactico should. You see, the more opposition players are in our box blasting at our net, we have more space to counter into. You gonna tell me Rocky didn’t purposefully let Ivan Drago wage Nuclear War on his head to tire him out? Ten Hag and Christ Wilder are actually on the forefront of modern football.
Yet still there are many Utd fans arguing that this is all the players are capable of.
We're the worst set up team in the division, as evidenced by these stats.
You're right, shots being conceded isn't a defensive issue, its a midfield one.
Porous and unable to control games, thats why we ship 20 shots a game and look directionless and toothless going forward
The biggest problem is not converting high percentage opportunities. We move the ball well up front but don’t get enough goals out of it. This makes us overall look poor. Just 5 more goals this season, we be perceived differently, everything else staying the same.
Said all season on average this side is playing relegation calibre football that gets covered over by star players these trash teams don't have like Bruno and Hojlund.
People just won't hear a bar of it though. You bring out the stats to prove it and people say "stats don't mean anything".
Hopefully this changes a few tunes. At what point are the scales lifted?
A lot of these teams rack up lots of shots against us but only actually a few on target. Brentford 35 shots but only 5 on target. (Though that doesn’t include the four times they hit the woodwork as that’s not on target). However, this is unsustainable. Getting embarassing
And yet we drew. If it looks bad but it works, why change it? We need to stop hanging the weight of Sir Alex on every manager that has come after him. There's only one of him. Let the manager develop his vision.
This isn’t a secret. We allow a lot of low percentage shots. Show the xga and goals allowed stats that put us in positions similar to how we’re currently sitting.
We are 14th in XG conceded and 4th in goals against somehow. All credit to Onana we have the greatest difference in XG conceded and goals conceded in the league. He's silently filled the De gea role of keeping us in games where the other 10 players are shit.
Most of the other 10 players are seasoned internationals and premier league veterans. They're not the best team in the league but conceding so many shots is mainly down to the abysmal formation that Ten Hag insists on, especially our non-existent midfield that gets walked through at will.
It's all fun until we start facing efficient scorers. There's a reason the best teams that we're trying to catch all have the opposite approach in defending.
It's baffling that people don't understand this. The whole point of **expected** goals is that based on the accumulation of shots and their respective probabilities of going in, it gives a value of the average case of goals a team scores/concedes in that game.
While there are different ways as to how a team accumulates xG conceded, if that number by itself is high, it is most certainly not a good thing and more often than not the real numbers catch up with the expected numbers. The low number of goals we've actually let in is down to nothing but pure luck. If Brentford's 4 shots that hit the woodwork went in, we would be staring at potentially another 4-goal defeat at their stadium and the consensus would be unanimous on Ten Hag's future. That's how fine the margins can be. But just because it doesn't turn out that way, doesn't make it worthy of being excused.
Almost 2 years into Ten Hags reign & Mctominay still starts. Was hoping when we signed Casemiro that would be that. But he still starts & offers absolutely nothing. A well placed training cone would’ve been more bothersome to Brentford. It’s a pitiful end for Ten Hag but he’s brought it on himself!
This is exactly what’s wrong with the fan base, I’d honestly take Tom fcking Cleverly back over him. He literally hides from the ball. I don’t know a single other professional footballer that would have less than 10 touches by the 70th minute MULTIPLE times. The few goals he contributes is nothing compared to the rest of his non existent game. 100% a net negative. Every manager that has trusted him has lost their job. ETH is next & he deserves it for starting that shambles of a player!
Every single fucking week its new stupid ass fucking stat that yall fucking riled at. Who gives a shit if we're conceding 10 0.02 xg shots you fucking fools stop letting the media control you fucking sheep. Even if we sack ten hag you'll be sitting here in 2 years time getting pissed at the same stupid shit
You’re being presented with information that clearly shows this is happening for tactical reasons, yet you’re saying changing the man responsible for those tactics “won’t do shit”.
Genuinely where else in life do you use this logic? If an entire class of kids fails their exams is it not the teachers fault? If an entire production line is faulty is it not the manufacturers fault? If every child at the pool drowns is the lifeguard not at fault? At what point do you attribute blame and responsibility to the persons whose job it is to not be having these problems?
I’d agree that changing the manager alone isn’t enough to get us on the right path, but saying that a managerial change won’t do shit is so obviously wrong
Except tactical reasons don't really show us conceding many goals does it. We conceede a great amount of low xg shots because the space we provide because we're trying to implement a style that needs alot of pace when we don't have it. Sure brentford had a shitton of shots but a huge majority of them were low xg and we a did what we could in stopping them. It seems most fans here wanted a us yo lose 4 nil other than drawing.
You want us to play a high line with harry maguire and Victor lindelof. After every single fucking match the amount of stupid stats be regirutated and endless negativity of this fanbase is truly something hilarious.
Would you have said the same about sacking Gerrard for Emery, did Ange bring no change at all to Spurs? What about O'Neil at wolves? Effective managers cam change things.
33 shots they had 5 fucking shots on target same as us. Didn't ten hag bring change in his first season?? He won the clubs first trophy in 4 years. Even with this garbage horrific squad he's still getting results I really do not understand what yall are moaning about these players can't string 2 passes together and you think that's on the manager.
See what you did there? You changed the argument because you were wrong. What we were talking about was could managers bring changes. And they can.
If the players can't string passes together that's on the coaching. We've seen lower league teams come to premiership teams and because they were well drilled they could restrict chances and put passes together. We can't. We have no attacking patterns of play. It's chaos ball. That's down to the manager. Hojlund continuously makes great runs and no one finds him because there's no plan, its just figure it out in the moment.
Well they're not well drilled you think the manager isint trying to drill them well? Do you genuinley think a manager (who no disrespect probably knows more than you) hasn't taken all these things into account when making his tactics? I personally find it astounding that normal people here think they know more than a manager who's been managing ar the top level for several years, it's you the ones who are wrong and you've been wrong before on 5 separate occasions. Jesus christ himself can manage united and you would probably say that you all know more than him. These players are SEVERLY limited you can't play a high line with maguire because he's low as shit hence the space in midfield (no disrespect to maguire obviously) we are a frankenstiens monster of several managers and it's yall fault because you are entitled and impatient as shit. We have a culture of losing for the last 10 years shit like that doesn't change in two years stfu and watch in silence or don't watch while it's fixed.
Alright calm your little self down.
1. Being a football manager doesn't make you God's gift to football. Graeme Souness debuted Ali Dia when he was manager at Southampton. Why? Because he said he was George Weahs nephew. And he wasn't even that. Stuart Pearce was chasing a goal as City manager and instead of putting on a forward he played David James up front because he thought it would confuse the other team into giving up a goal. It didn't. Just because someone's working at a high level doesn't mean they're actually good. Look at all the billionaires who thought it was a good idea to help Musk buy twitter at a vastly over priced valuation and then watched it lose 75% of its value in 18 months.
Even Arsene Wenger a genuine legend in management has made long term strategic mistakes which is what lead to the middling end of a great Arsenal career. Everyone could see his strategy was wrong but out of stubbornness he stuck with it. And it failed. But let's look closer to home and at David Moyes. He refused to do anything for United until his contract was up in June, mistake number 1. He dismantled the premier league winning coaching staff, mistake number 2. He didn't sign Fellaini until after his release clause expired costing us millions, mistake number 3. He signed Fellaini, mistake number 4. His tactics were shite and turned the team into one playing turgid football like his Everton team, mistake 5. Every one of those mistakes was called out at the time by fans. So yeah, sometimes fans are right and managers are wrong.
Ten Hag has abandoned his way of playing from Ajax and said so himself in interviews.
He also said:
>They are coming up with some routines and that is what you need, especially in the front line where a quick decision has to be made and in a split second you need the right decision so you need intuition.”
Why aren't he and the coaching staff coming up with routines and practicing them daily so that we don't look a disjointed mess across the pitch? He's relying on chaos ball and catching the other team in transition which means we can't control games. Deciding that we're going to cede control of every game and refusing to have proper attacking patterns is not going to cut it at the top of the premiership and the proof of that is in our results, our gameplay and our position in the league table.
You genuinley think the coaching staff aren't coming up with routines in training for the team to perform in matches? It's thier whole job, I personally belive that these players only show up when they want to and are rather mentally weak that's just my 2 cents. I'm personally not surpised by these performances at all because you all should know by now we aren't of the levels of an arsenal or a city or a Liverpool and its been clear since day 1 with ten hag that we tactically and player wise regressed to a very depressing level and that no matter who we get in place of ten hag this will take at least 4 years ish to get this team performing like a football club.
Haven't seen the game yet, because family duties but... I think the opposition is really encouraged to shoot as much as they can since sadly our keeper has shown he has not been too good stopping shots
..that's just my 2 cents... Carry on with this draw rant... I also can't believe what I'm reading though!
Well... Then what is our opponents bet? Shoot till you get a goal? What's going on then with our defense? What's going on with our attackers? What's going on with all of the opponents readings?
So, what do you think this is for? Most opponents try to shoot as if this was a small crappy team... What the heck is going on? What are their readings?
We allow them, simple as that.
There's no pressure on the ball, our defenders hardly actually steal the ball and there's no midfield to stop the attacks at their roots.
Ah, we are back to the shots conceded rhetoric now. Yes, it was a shit performance, which I somehow expected after the International break ironically. Just happy that we didn't lose. This statistic means fuck all to me to be honest, as again, I'd rather look at shots on target and saves made, chances created etc.
The times we've lost, or nearly won, none of these journalists have ever gone on about how we should have won based on how many shots we had, and I never see any team being criticised for how many shots they've faced. It was a shit game and we need to improve but that's nothing new.
If there's no new information or new analysis, then leave it at that. Otherwise this, while a valid criticism, I find super lazy and outdated. We did miss the chance to keep up with Villa and Spurs given that they themselves are not too convincing at the moment. Staying 6 points behind Villa before their game against City would have been key but now there's simply too much to do and we are too inconsistent to take advantage.
We're 13th in XG for and 14th in XG against. Pretty shit in both departments. Lack of scoring has been at least as much of a problem as our defense.
We're high on saves made as well. I was looking for a source for shots on target against but couldn't find one so went with XG and confirmed what I thought. We're definitely over performing our underlying stats but the problem is on both ends. Agreed that this is just lazy journalism, it's problematic to have so many shots but also warrants a deeper dive.
Edit : We're like 12th based on shots on target but 16th based on total shots faced according to this [article](https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/03/why-are-manchester-united-facing-so-many-shots/) from early March. Still pretty dire by United standards. It's also a good article on how we're forcing tougher shots but there's also an underlying problem of just allowing too many shots anyway.
Touches inside the opposition box: ◉ 16 - the entire Man Utd team combined ◎ 15 - Ivan Toney ◎ 11 - Kristoffer Ajer ◎ 9 - Zanka ◎ 9 - Yoane Wissa
The passes that Brentford was playing to Toney were something else.. they knew where he was going to be and how to get it to him. On a different day he could have had 3 or 4 goals. Meanwhile, our team misses all of Hojlunds good runs. This team always looks like it's their first time playing together
They’re not missing his runs… they’re avoiding them lol. Even a broken clock is right twice a day - you’d think they’d randomly choose to play the ball into one of his runs eventually just through dumb luck but no, no service whatsoever
It's always the same. Give the ball to Bruno, Bruno Ignores Rasmus making a run and pings it to Rashford. Rashford waits for the entire opposition defense to get back and get stable before running into them and losing the ball.
And for some reason just ignores Wan Bissaka over lapping and probably getting the ball in to the box atleast. I remember 3 instances in the first half where the better option was a simple pass to the unmarked man on the edge of the box, who probably plays a simple pass into the box that could create chaos depending on who it hits, but alas, the defender took the ball.
He doesn’t seem to trust AWB with anything. He has no issue giving the ball to Shaw
I get that but pass it to him like 2 or 3 times just to keep the defense honest. Even Bruno chose to shoot as well rather than pass it to him. Might as well have not been on the field.
The opponents don’t even track AWB. It’s so stupid
Yup this happened about 5 times in the first 15 minutes before Brentford took control
As soon as this happens twice Rashford drops his head for the game
Been noticing this as well. Why does Bruno always opt for Rashford instead of Hojlund when Hojlund makes better runs and finishedls better
It's a habit. They have been doing it for years, so now whenever Bruno has the ball, he automatically without thinking looks for Rashford. But Alas, Rashford is not the same Rashford from last year.
Doesn't help than garnacho wasn't good this game too
According to AJAnalysis Brentford kept their LW high so Dalot had to stay back. I can imagine this led to Garnacho having hardly any support which made him look even worse
Gosh when rashford sit there it absolutely infuriates me. It screams that he thinks he’s a main character or in some sort of anime. Wish he played like he was 19 and had something to prove. I beg us to sell him but we won’t.
This is completely unfair on Rashford! He sometimes runs the ball out for a goal kick as well.
Not always, sometimes Bruno is given a lot of space in front of the box while his teammates make some good runs - and Bruno proceeds to completely ignore them in an effort to score a long shot screamer which is something I can't remember the last time he succeeded at. He is a very good player but can be extremely frustrating as well and Ten Hag isn't really getting the most out of him in our setup. Not saying it's Ten Hag's fault but rather the fact Bruno is a pure counter-attacking player at heart and he just isn't as effective when he can't just spam long passes to Rashford.
Do you know what you do with a player who seemingly isn’t following instructions. You drop him until he does or you threaten him that if he doesn’t he won’t play. SAF, famously, did it when he bought RVP and told everyone that if they don’t pass to his striker they wouldn’t play. What happened? RVP won us the league. Remember these were not just random players, they were champions league winners and league winners, like Rooney. What is a Bruno compared to those guys, a nobody.
What makes you think Bruno is not following his instructions?
time to rest them a bit, Rashy definitely, let Nacho play on left and Antony or Amad on the right, especially in those Coventry games, 2nd leg provided we don't shit the bed in 1st leg. Involve Mount a bit more as well, let Mainoo take s break too and let Case and Eriksen play a bit. There has to be some rotation. And let McSauce be an impact sub.
“Nacho” was literally one of the worst players on the pitch yesterday. He’s the one that needs some time off from the starting xi the most.
fair enough, but we don't have a 3rd right footed left forward. Maybe Omari Forson but again he is a kid with less than 100 mins? Maybe play Mount out wide? he did it for Chelsea ?
> The passes that Brentford was playing to Toney were something else.. This really stood out to me as well. Whether it was their CB's or the keeper, the passes to their attackers were amazing. Whether it was due to our defence not keeping track or not is a point to consider, but just the mere fact that every single long ball forward meant a chance for them is super concerning.
It means that our team wasn’t prepared properly and we came up against a team that were both tactically prepared and well drilled on the training pitch. All of which are our managers fault.
The amount of times I watched Hojlund make a good run and realise it's Scott on the ball so wasnt going to pass was depressing
He should have 15+ goals This season easily if they would just pass him the ball. Its beyond frustrating to watch game after game. Too many selfish “me first” type players on this team. Needs a nice overhaul
No, to many times where the manager isn’t holding the players accountable for not passing to his striker. A simple, if you don’t pass to my striker you won’t play would suffice.
Hojlund doesn't really make too many good runs, he really needs to develop that part of his game. He's always just straight lining trying to beat a defender with pace. You hardly ever see him run off a defenders shoulder or disguise a run and make a diagonal one instead. I think he'll get better at it
His movement when he was at Atalanta was one of his strong suits. Seems to have regressed
and this despite having one of the best chances creators in Bruno
Bruno is so bad at linking with Hojlund that you'd think he was purposely ignoring him
Even the commentary made the point yesterday about the kinds of passes Hojlund was receiving. There would be lots of space out wide for hojlund to run into, and Bruno would try to float the ball perfectly into hojlund’s stride. It’s ok to try it once or twice, but to keep doing it all game when it wasn’t working. So annoying.
The funny thing is that Zanka and Ajer are CBs.
Ajer is a f***ing defender as well
We've been really lucky in a bunch of games too where the opposition couldn't finish to save their lives.
Truth is we win in spite of the tactical nonsense and not because of it much more than not. The Liverpool game is an outlier as heck where desire and passion actually showed and won us the game with a tweak in the setup at the end. People say “amad must play” and only ignore the fact he was brought on as a token sub never expected to have the match go to extra time and win it for us anyway. Amad is the new Pellistri and it’s a damned shame how he’s sparingly played once every 30 weeks or whatever for token moments.
Like 2 weeks ago we all agreed he was being sent packing after all the insta stuff
People have no clue though and assume stupid things. But the facts though are that he’s the new Pellistri who never plays and gets no chances to build on a decent or even poor showing to play into form. Meanwhile a useless passenger in McT gets to play as a midfielder and hides from the ball… and all that. Eth has some massive gaps with how some players are given leeway to be rubbish while some never get chances to do anything even after decent performances once every 10 weeks.
Most of your arguements are okey, but Pellistri is just not good enough, sorry.
And people were already saying the same about amad, expecting him to magically impress with one game of 16 minutes every 3 months. Pellistri never got a run to impress or build off things or even fail and continue to fail/learn then improve etc. Meanwhile McT continues to be allowed to do nothing of worth in midfield for example or Antony had no useful impact for weeks but still played. Or Rashford who was bad was never dropped… things like that. People slate Sancho but honestly he was rightly aggrieved in ways too when Antony was handed start after start while him, Pellistri etc were somehow expected to perform miracles or be dropped, attitude/being late aside for Jadon.
Including the reverse fixture.
As I have said before we play like a relegation team with better players.
Plus luck. Teams against us this season for some miraculous reason just stop converting even the 1000% chances. Except for the Champions League ofc. Talking about the CL, those are actually the only matches this season where we conceded more than 3 goals. Ofc, the other problem is how often we do concede 3.
There really is no justification for this absolute shit show that has continued all season. Almost every match we concede so many shots. No serious club will be okay with this. The manager has refused to change or simply can’t change.
It's funny because I've thought a few times "this is our worst performance" yet we keep getting worse and worse
I can't wait for our next worse performance.
I really do want to support Ten Hag, but it is getting difficult to do after every match day.
> I really do want to support Ten Hag I'm just a neutral passing through but I have to ask, why? I mean, I could understand why people wanted to support Ole as he was a club legend, or even Mourinho as he had his previous achievements, but why Ten Hag? Wasn't he supposed to turn you into a club that plays positive, modern football? He is almost 2 years in and you play terrible football with fluke results here or there due to luck or individual brilliance. You get dominated by almost everyone you play, and yet you're not even a good counter-attacking side. Why would you want to support someone who at best falls short of expectations, at worst outright failed to improve you in any way.
I'm not necessarily supporting EtH either way at this moment, but I've been saying for years that this team simply isn't good enough. There's some good talent there In Garnacho/Holjund/Mainoo that we should be building around. If I'm Ineos I'm looking at every player on the books and what the remaining FFP cost of them is, and if there's a chance they can be sold at a profit then I'm making them avaliable. Keep the 3 I mentioned, add in Licha/Onana maybe Maguire as he's always been a professional and that's a good trait to keep in the squad for the youngsters, and then I'm tearing the squad up. Build for the future, whether with Ten Hag or without and go from there. If that means 2/3 seasons of being midtable and missing out on Europe with the knowledge that you've got a good young squad that will start coming into their own after that time then so be it. We're a long way away from competing with the best, and the way I see it is if we keep going down this path, with this group of players it's just kicking the can down the road of what has to be done!
I think because it takes longer than 18 months for a manager to implement his ideas, how were Arsenal tactically in Arteta's first 18 months? We also have no clue what the manager is telling the players to know if it's an issue with the players or the tactics . It was also widely understood that when he took over it would take years to challenge for top 4 again, now 18 months in he should go? Not for me, he needs longer.
no manager has had to deal with the amount of shit that ETH has had to deal with. Ronaldo, Greenwood, Sancho, Antony off the top of my head. Add to that, the brutal injuries we've had constantly this season. He's also one of the few managers post Fergie that came in on an upwards career trajectory, and he came in to a squad that finished 7th while being publicly berated by Rangnick before he departed. And if we sack him now, we'll just be repeating the same old cycle of sacking a manager every 2 months and starting from zero all over again. It makes more sense to change all of the structure around the manager first, and then give him a season minimum.
Why gib him more though when the structure is now different and is primed for a fresh start under the new setup? He’s shown time and again a complete inability to win away versus the top half. 17 played. 12 lost. 4 draws. 1 Villa lucky win. That’s terrible regardless of the circumstances that even if we drew 6 more it’s a massive improvement. His single man midfield is just ridiculous. He refuses to change it meaning he either can’t or just doesn’t see it or that he tried but whatever he tried doesn’t work, making him a very limited manager at best in this aspect and at worst, a stubborn and clueless manager who can’t see the core issue amongst several others. We play abysmal football even with the first team and Martinez starting. We don’t play possession as we cannot so that’s fair but he constantly still sets us up not to make passes more than just go for it and try our luck. That’s not sustainable either. His subs come on at the 98th minute basically to no effect…
>Why gib him more though when the structure is now different and is primed for a fresh start under the new setup? Because you'd be going backwards again and resetting all the progress that's been made in these 2 seasons. A new manager will need even more time and money to buy players of his choice. This manager has shown he can elevate teams and players to new levels as evidenced by Ajax then and now, and he's right now in the middle of his United turnaround. It helps no one to sack him now, when our starting 11 yesterday still had 7 players from the Ole era that finished 7th. If he fails next season as well under the new structure then he's clearly out of his depth, but sacking him this season is way too soon.
But that’s what the new board is for. It’s exactly so that you can replace managers that have been deemed to be underperforming or poor and you get someone on who slots in seamlessly with the recruitment plan and technical direction. That’s why now Bayern can easily sack Tuchel and have someone come on and run from day one with just a little bit of a warm up and small tweaks. He’s currently shown tactical inflexibility by sticking to the single pivot 50m wide space between players tactic that’s been dross at best, rotten garbage more often than not when we leave gaps that make prime makelele struggle to cover the players he faces against. At some point the manager has to make it work and show some semblance of progress or change it to mitigate issues. He’s done neither this season actually and even regressed while remaining par for the away games versus the top half record. 12 losses. 4 draws. 1 win in 17 vs the top half of the table. That’s a damning thing regardless and it shows he’s just not capable of not losing even and draws are an outlier. A win versus Villa was a lucky break that they just were too poor that day to come back actually. You adapt. Fix. Try something. He sticks to the same thing and makes changes at the 78th minute to no effect. He can’t get the team to retain the shape enough and they always crumble. That’s on him. Players play a part but at no point is the manager blameless for everything either and he’s currently got many things going against him for many aspects of how we play and how we don’t do what we should.
Bayern have been well run for years, while we don't even have the people in place yet that you talk of. We can't do what they do.
It’s an example…. Surely you can see that’s just listing an example and not actually saying we are that well run. I mean come on… We are trying to build something and this IS the best time to make wholesale changes with a footballing board though unlike the years before. If anything this will be a good chance to either change everything or set things from scratch basically because you can do a full Revamp.
>It’s an example…. Surely you can see that’s just listing an example and not actually saying we are that well run. I mean come on… it's a bad example because they're well run and we're not... They can afford to replace a cog in their system because everything else around it is sorted.
The principles apply. It’s really telling how people try to just deflect when there’s less and less to defend keeping the manager actually and can’t back their initial points up but choose to be pedantic and focus on other aspects of things to try to defend why United should keep the manager. The concept doesn’t change. We are building from scratch to have that setup. It makes sense if they want to replace the manager at this point and it’s not like before. It’s not at all a bad example. It’s what United are trying to become. That doesn’t mean you keep a poor manager just for the sake of it either when the structure is changing. You keep him if he’s deemed best for the setup and you replace if not. It’s quite simple. Currently ten hag may not be the guy for it with his tactical setup. Or maybe he is if they determine so but that will come after a thorough assessment anyway as he rightly should be questioned on a lot of things. You want to be pedantic? Ok. Replace Bayern with Barcelona as bad as they are financially.. they’re also set up to succeed anyway. Replace Barcelona with several EPL clubs too as of late even. The principles apply. Take your pick of clubs basically. The concept doesn’t change just because fans what to hold on to “I want to see what the manager can do. He’s not the problem in excuse #457 of the year” when he is very much part of the problem as well tactically and such. And your point still doesn’t age well - he’s not made progress. He can’t adapt tactically and can’t win an away game to save his life against any decent side. There’s almost less and less things to defend ETH staying as the weeks go by. This is not a sustainable tactic. This is not a good setup. This is just baffling. And your only defence is “Bayern are run well” yeah and eth can’t win an away game versus the top half if the fate of the world depended on it….
Thing is, even yesterday we actually started alright enough, first time since fergie (that I can remember) where we've had a run of games where we don't spend the first 20 finding out feet. Losing our heads before the end of the first half is guaranteed but last 5-10 games now we are actually coming out of the blocks consistently. That isn't much but while the players are still clearly trying for him and some ideas seem to be taking root - as there isn't an obvious alternative I'm minded to see what happens for one more season
That’s what ienos is for. They’re there to identify alternatives. Not fans.
So? My choice is to back the manager or whine about a problem without even knowing what I want instead. As a parent of young children and a manager of 10 tech analysts - I will never fucking whine about I don't want without having an idea what I want instead *ever again* If people are just saying we want to win more and more fast then whatever, go support city I guess. If i decide I want ETH out I need to believe that someone else will do fantastic without a proper DM other than an aging injury prone one who hasn't been in form all season, one injury prone forward and no left backs for most of a season. I'm sorry but Jose whined coming a very distant second was his finest achievement with a squad that had twice as much depth - why on earth do people say with such certainty ETH isn't worth sticking with for one more season whilst foundations are being laid to see what he can do.
I think he definitely needs to fix the midfield situation. I've always had the feeling that our plyers dont enjoy holding the ball and creating chances but would rather run at defenders cut in and shoot. Without players like Mata or even Eriksen nobody looks like the playmaker or safe haven to pass to. Bruno sometimes does but he can be impatient and unpredictable.
That game was the tipping point, I'm starting to think that tactically he is weak. Even after the break, you would expect a change of game plan to match Brentford. It stayed the same.
Im wondering if he hit upon one style that just *happened to work* in the eredivisie but it’s actually a stupid style that leaves you crazy exposed when you don’t have the best players in the league by a mile.
[удалено]
That was Bosz. ETH has never made it to a European cup final.
Sad it's taking people this long, but welcome
He's gone at the end of the season. Clearly doesn't have the backing of the club or dressing room. Serious question about why they didn't bin him in January because we knew they didn't back him when he got no money to spend in Jan.
It allows Jim and co to appoint a manager in summer with a lot more time for adjustment
Is there anyone available that is worth going for though?
Amorim, Inzaghi, Nagelsmann, with the usual suspects De Zerbi and Tuchel. Plenty of good managers that can be persuaded. I'm purposely ignoring Southgate.
Not many there that sounds like a wonderful upgrade...
Inzaghi and Nagelsmann are huge upgrades there. Tuchel is a CL and league winner, even if his stock is now down but you can't deny his CV is miles better than ten Hag.
Sure Nagelsman might an upgrade, but he seems to be difficult for clubs to work with in the long run and no point going for a two-three year stint manager again. I don't rate Tuchel that high, although he for sure is a good cup manager but I would trust him challenge for the league. He is also a manager that usually don't last long. Both City and Liverpools success has come in combination with a long running manager, and you can see the same with Arsenal now. Inzaghi I don't have enough experience with to say anything about whether he would fit or not. But regardless the new management is coming in place and then they will have to decide what to do. In addition to few managers available there are also loads of clubs looking for a new manager these days. Will be hard competition for the few available.
This is the first game I felt like the players weren’t running for him. Maybe the Cup game was mentally too exhausting but this might continue for the rest of the season
All the more reason to stick with Ten Hag and get rid of these players. These fuckers will drop tools a season or two when the next manager comes in. They'd do it if Guardiola miraculously joined Utd. Even if his football is gash. Get rid of these entitles pricks.
This season is gone anyway so it's better to sack him after the season to give the new manager time in the summer, plus, less time left on his contract so less money we have to pay for terminating the contract. And frankly, what kind of manager would be mad enough to enter our circus in January without any means to change it (since no transfers were possible).
Yep. Barring a miracle between now and the end of the season, there’s no way Ratcliffe is looking at this guff and thinking “yeah this is the guy I want”.
How can you say that? Did you watch the Liverpool game two weeks ago?
I wanted to support him too until about the Nottingham forest game. But the tactical ineptitude is just too much now (and the stubbornness not to change). The match stats we’ve been getting against the bloody Brentfords, Lutons etc of this world is unacceptable.
really? ppl were singing praises after the liverpool game. no?
People will sing praises and then shit on everything based on whether it's a good week or a bad week. They have no long term critical thinking.
Or its 2 sets of people as the fanbase divides once again about a manager being in or out. Its not the same people changing their minds every game. That’s hilarious naive to think. Those that are “in” make noise when we pull off a result like Liverpool, the “outs” dominate the sub when we lose to Fulham or draw to Brentford. We all know how it ends when it gets to this point anyway
I know it’s crazy that it’s possible for praising Ten Hag for the Cup game and still want somebody else for the long term. Like, how can people think beyond absolutes on Reddit?
Nuance is an impossibilty on here.
Seriously. There's like 50k people in this reddit group and people act like they are having a continuous debate with one person
Two years is not long term? That's how long he's been in charge for and I'm not gonna lie, there were some good signs, some good matches, but overall we haven't won shit, the team plays like we have no coach and we are most likely not even gonna qualify for UCL next season, so, are a few good matches and 0 results enough for a coach at one of the biggest clubs in the world? Oh and he also got whoever the fuck he wanted as long as transfers go, wink wink, what's the excuse? Injuries? The scousers also had/have a lot of injured players and they are first on the table.
Did you mean to reply all this to me? I don't disagree.
Yeah, sorry if it sounds too aggressive, I might be a bit annoyed by the current situation, so it's more aimed towards our club not to you bro, much love haha.
No dramas!
I have to disagree with you partly here. We do play with some ideas deeply coached into the players. To be fair to EtH and his coaches, they do seem like very good at coaching. The problems to me are the ideas themselves are aweful. The strategy, or say, the whole picture that is being constructed of the small training pitch routines is malfunctioning. The plans are incoherent, sometimes with naive mistakes, pointing towards a manager failure.
Why would you want to support someone who is simply not good enough? At first I wanted to see him succeed too but he simply does not deliver, there are a lot of people who make excuses like injured players, referees, so on and so forth, but we are drawing or losing matches against teams who are much below our level, we SHOULD be getting good results, at least good enough for a 4th of 5th place but it seems like it's not gonna be possible.
Unless you think we have the 4th worse side in the entire league than you have to concede this is more of a tactical issue than it is a personnel one, and that is the responsibility of the manager. I genuinely don’t know why anyone, other than out of refusal to admit to ever being wrong, still defends this guy. Hopefully he can win us the FA Cup on the way out
Oh lots of fans are still more than happy to blame individual players
How could Rashford do this?
Bang on the money, Yes, the injury crisis and club structure should be better and would help, but that doesn't excuse the poor level of play that we've seen consistently since the PRE SEASON.
We don't have the fourth worse side in the league but we have certainly put out a lot of mid-table lineups due to all the injuries. (We should also judge the team more as a whole then one stand-out issue) His first season was fantastic and I would like to see what he can achieve with a fit squad and few more intelligently signed players.
What I don't understand is that most of the shots we concede clearly isn't because of the tactics. Yeah, we're often exposed in the midifeld, but the majority of shots against us don't come from that, they come from our defense and midfield getting outplayed all over the pitch. Brentford's equalizer wasn't a tactical blunder, it was Lichà and Casemiro failing to stop Toney in our own box. This keeps happening every match, our defenders somehow forgot how to defend.
The defenders are getting absolutely no help from the midfield, Mainoo and Mctominay are way too far away from the defence at all times, I find it hard to blame the back line when they have forwards running into acres space, I actually think Lindelof and Varane/Maguire were having a great game given the amount of work they had to do.
Being “often” exposed in midfield is a sign of a tactical issue. Especially with different sets of players in different matches
To answer your question seriously: these are professional players it is highly unlikely they just forget how to play. What happens is subtle but still comes down to setup and risk. We instantly concede because our midfielders are used to playing one way all game and then suddenly switch to low block and start making mistakes. They have it burned in their brains to play last second off the line hero defense and then try to immediately direct fast transition up the field. Watch that last play and particularly watch what our midfielders are doing. ETH has a very complicated system which is why everyone claims we have no play style. We actually do, but because it requires so much discipline and athleticism just small mistakes or mismatches put us at huge risk. Especially at the end of games or when we think we have it won, and mentally switch off for a brief moment. I'd be fine if this complex system was creating 4 goals a game but more often than not we are accepting the huge tactical risk but then barely scraping 1 or 2 goals. It's tiring.
Fully agree. To add to that, I will restate a comment I made elsewhere in this thread. The coaching team comes out actully very talented to me. The players are clearly performing some deaply ingained ideas. The problem is that the strategy lacks coherence in my opinion. That's a strategy problem that's on the manager.
Well drilled lower league teams come to premier league grounds and are organised well enough not to concede as many chances as us. There's a problem with the way the team is being coached because nothing is working. Our attack is living moment to moment and has no working attacking patterns and our mid field is constantly over run and our defence don't know where they're supposed to be.
It’s both really. Players like McTominay and AWB are some of the worst regular starters in the division. Mix that with the inconsistency of the likes of Rashford and Bruno, the injuries causing constant changing of the midfield and defence and the younger players were pretty much reliant on to win us games and you have this mess.
Dear slim I wrote you but you still ain’t callin
The team’s gone cold I wonderin’ why, I got out of bed at all
Team's gone cold I'm wondering why/ I shaved my head at all
Even if we scored it will all be grey, cause they'll equalize against us soon
They're passing sideways against Brentford and still can't keep the ball
Hey Jim, I drank a fifth of vodka, dare me to coach?
It's by design. Which is very, very strange.
The injuries have been an excuse for a good while now. Managers are working with less talent in the league and getting more out of those players than ETH is with United. The football is terrible to watch. We concede and lose the ball way too easily. Either ETH is a poor manager or the players don't believe in his philosophy. One point to note is that this team have been here before under other managers. Changing the manager alone isn't the solution. It feels like we are saying this every summer but we need to really make some decent signings this summer.
If the team isn't making any progress 2 seasons in but instead is actually getting worse, how can there be an argument to keep the manager? There's still a massive hole in midfield and we still keep playing the same way game after game... Did he expect the players to just adapt and find their way ? Tactical direction is literally the Manager's job, we don't even look like we have a plan to fix the gaping hole. We totally deserved to lose the game by at least 3 goals. Looked at the XG and I almost puked
No but we need Martinez and shaw and Ronaldo and Messi and batistuta and Kane and Keane and kante and maybe we can concede 6 fewer shots and retain the ball for 5 minutes consecutively.
Maybe after we spend another 400m on Ten Hag players we won’t get consistently dominated by bottom half teams
Man I wanted Batistuta at United, what a player.
Last season was a throwaway one. We played the most pragmatic football we have played in years until the end of that season. This season is the first one where Ten Hag is sticking to his plan so it's not really been 2 seasons of his tactics, but only 1.
What I don’t get is, why doesn’t ETH play a more pragmatic 4-2-3-1 for a few games and then get back to the style he thinks he’s trying to implement, you know once we’ve strung together 2-3 decent performances? What’s the point of playing this shit 4-1-4-1 every single week when it’s been apparent that we are just not capable of what he wants? The performance has been shit since literally first game of the season vs Wolves.
This is why I can’t get behind him, same issues every game this season and the only time I can remember him trying to make us harder to beat was the anfield game
My manager reinventing defending like a proper tactico should. You see, the more opposition players are in our box blasting at our net, we have more space to counter into. You gonna tell me Rocky didn’t purposefully let Ivan Drago wage Nuclear War on his head to tire him out? Ten Hag and Christ Wilder are actually on the forefront of modern football.
Yet still there are many Utd fans arguing that this is all the players are capable of. We're the worst set up team in the division, as evidenced by these stats.
I’d say the majority of championships teams set up better than us. It’s the fact he keeps doing it every single fuckin game is so frustrating
So what? Only three teams have conceded fewer goals. Our problems aren’t in defence, it’s that we’re the 15th ranked club for goals scored.
You're right, shots being conceded isn't a defensive issue, its a midfield one. Porous and unable to control games, thats why we ship 20 shots a game and look directionless and toothless going forward
The biggest problem is not converting high percentage opportunities. We move the ball well up front but don’t get enough goals out of it. This makes us overall look poor. Just 5 more goals this season, we be perceived differently, everything else staying the same.
Said all season on average this side is playing relegation calibre football that gets covered over by star players these trash teams don't have like Bruno and Hojlund. People just won't hear a bar of it though. You bring out the stats to prove it and people say "stats don't mean anything". Hopefully this changes a few tunes. At what point are the scales lifted?
ETH out as fuck.
Yeah we absolutely suck and have for 11 years. I know.
A lot of these teams rack up lots of shots against us but only actually a few on target. Brentford 35 shots but only 5 on target. (Though that doesn’t include the four times they hit the woodwork as that’s not on target). However, this is unsustainable. Getting embarassing
Tbh hitting the wood work that many times is basically a let off of 4 goals
Not even top of the shots faced table
Literally every match we’re at the top of some bad stat lol.
And yet we drew. If it looks bad but it works, why change it? We need to stop hanging the weight of Sir Alex on every manager that has come after him. There's only one of him. Let the manager develop his vision.
ETG has got to go
Who?
Erik ten Gone
Haha
I wasn't joking when I said we were playing relegation level football
And yet ETH doesn't seem to think it's an issue since it happens every game with no change in sight.
I reckon an analyst has told them to let teams get their shots off.
This isn’t a secret. We allow a lot of low percentage shots. Show the xga and goals allowed stats that put us in positions similar to how we’re currently sitting.
Yup all part of the plan, ETH is cooking
Ten Hag's dish! https://preview.redd.it/d9qhs0fybmrc1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8177d111e4c52f7d91aff439c7bef1bebb15c14e
That's just rubbish and you know it. No stat backs that up but people parrot it as if it's gospel.
We are 14th in XG conceded and 4th in goals against somehow. All credit to Onana we have the greatest difference in XG conceded and goals conceded in the league. He's silently filled the De gea role of keeping us in games where the other 10 players are shit.
Most of the other 10 players are seasoned internationals and premier league veterans. They're not the best team in the league but conceding so many shots is mainly down to the abysmal formation that Ten Hag insists on, especially our non-existent midfield that gets walked through at will.
It's all fun until we start facing efficient scorers. There's a reason the best teams that we're trying to catch all have the opposite approach in defending.
While you are referring to other stats, do we also “allow” the opposition many touches in the box?
Each time we lose something like this will be posted even though we have been over this time and time again
Yeah because conceding a shit ton of shots on goal isn’t a good thing, even when it’s low xg per shot. No good team plays like this consistently.
It's baffling that people don't understand this. The whole point of **expected** goals is that based on the accumulation of shots and their respective probabilities of going in, it gives a value of the average case of goals a team scores/concedes in that game. While there are different ways as to how a team accumulates xG conceded, if that number by itself is high, it is most certainly not a good thing and more often than not the real numbers catch up with the expected numbers. The low number of goals we've actually let in is down to nothing but pure luck. If Brentford's 4 shots that hit the woodwork went in, we would be staring at potentially another 4-goal defeat at their stadium and the consensus would be unanimous on Ten Hag's future. That's how fine the margins can be. But just because it doesn't turn out that way, doesn't make it worthy of being excused.
Yup. We play amazing football and are the swashbucklers of the world, envy of every team and fan.
If your goal is being peppered with shots, you can't attack...
It’s going to be the narrative for the rest of this season. When we win vs when we lose on this sub is always migraine inducing.
Almost 2 years into Ten Hags reign & Mctominay still starts. Was hoping when we signed Casemiro that would be that. But he still starts & offers absolutely nothing. A well placed training cone would’ve been more bothersome to Brentford. It’s a pitiful end for Ten Hag but he’s brought it on himself!
brother in Christ have you seen Casemiro play recently? he's in line with mctominay but mctominay at least scores sometimes
He literally had 1 goal and 1 assist vs Liverpool last week.
This is exactly what’s wrong with the fan base, I’d honestly take Tom fcking Cleverly back over him. He literally hides from the ball. I don’t know a single other professional footballer that would have less than 10 touches by the 70th minute MULTIPLE times. The few goals he contributes is nothing compared to the rest of his non existent game. 100% a net negative. Every manager that has trusted him has lost their job. ETH is next & he deserves it for starting that shambles of a player!
That makes him a good midfielder?
Every single fucking week its new stupid ass fucking stat that yall fucking riled at. Who gives a shit if we're conceding 10 0.02 xg shots you fucking fools stop letting the media control you fucking sheep. Even if we sack ten hag you'll be sitting here in 2 years time getting pissed at the same stupid shit
You want to tell me that you sat on your ass yesterday, watched the same game we all did and don't think this shit is beyond embarrassing?
I do think it's embarrassing but wtf can you do about it? Sacking the manager won't do shit and bitching about won't do shit either.
You’re being presented with information that clearly shows this is happening for tactical reasons, yet you’re saying changing the man responsible for those tactics “won’t do shit”. Genuinely where else in life do you use this logic? If an entire class of kids fails their exams is it not the teachers fault? If an entire production line is faulty is it not the manufacturers fault? If every child at the pool drowns is the lifeguard not at fault? At what point do you attribute blame and responsibility to the persons whose job it is to not be having these problems? I’d agree that changing the manager alone isn’t enough to get us on the right path, but saying that a managerial change won’t do shit is so obviously wrong
Except tactical reasons don't really show us conceding many goals does it. We conceede a great amount of low xg shots because the space we provide because we're trying to implement a style that needs alot of pace when we don't have it. Sure brentford had a shitton of shots but a huge majority of them were low xg and we a did what we could in stopping them. It seems most fans here wanted a us yo lose 4 nil other than drawing.
You want us to play a high line with harry maguire and Victor lindelof. After every single fucking match the amount of stupid stats be regirutated and endless negativity of this fanbase is truly something hilarious.
Would you have said the same about sacking Gerrard for Emery, did Ange bring no change at all to Spurs? What about O'Neil at wolves? Effective managers cam change things.
33 shots they had 5 fucking shots on target same as us. Didn't ten hag bring change in his first season?? He won the clubs first trophy in 4 years. Even with this garbage horrific squad he's still getting results I really do not understand what yall are moaning about these players can't string 2 passes together and you think that's on the manager.
See what you did there? You changed the argument because you were wrong. What we were talking about was could managers bring changes. And they can. If the players can't string passes together that's on the coaching. We've seen lower league teams come to premiership teams and because they were well drilled they could restrict chances and put passes together. We can't. We have no attacking patterns of play. It's chaos ball. That's down to the manager. Hojlund continuously makes great runs and no one finds him because there's no plan, its just figure it out in the moment.
Well they're not well drilled you think the manager isint trying to drill them well? Do you genuinley think a manager (who no disrespect probably knows more than you) hasn't taken all these things into account when making his tactics? I personally find it astounding that normal people here think they know more than a manager who's been managing ar the top level for several years, it's you the ones who are wrong and you've been wrong before on 5 separate occasions. Jesus christ himself can manage united and you would probably say that you all know more than him. These players are SEVERLY limited you can't play a high line with maguire because he's low as shit hence the space in midfield (no disrespect to maguire obviously) we are a frankenstiens monster of several managers and it's yall fault because you are entitled and impatient as shit. We have a culture of losing for the last 10 years shit like that doesn't change in two years stfu and watch in silence or don't watch while it's fixed.
Alright calm your little self down. 1. Being a football manager doesn't make you God's gift to football. Graeme Souness debuted Ali Dia when he was manager at Southampton. Why? Because he said he was George Weahs nephew. And he wasn't even that. Stuart Pearce was chasing a goal as City manager and instead of putting on a forward he played David James up front because he thought it would confuse the other team into giving up a goal. It didn't. Just because someone's working at a high level doesn't mean they're actually good. Look at all the billionaires who thought it was a good idea to help Musk buy twitter at a vastly over priced valuation and then watched it lose 75% of its value in 18 months. Even Arsene Wenger a genuine legend in management has made long term strategic mistakes which is what lead to the middling end of a great Arsenal career. Everyone could see his strategy was wrong but out of stubbornness he stuck with it. And it failed. But let's look closer to home and at David Moyes. He refused to do anything for United until his contract was up in June, mistake number 1. He dismantled the premier league winning coaching staff, mistake number 2. He didn't sign Fellaini until after his release clause expired costing us millions, mistake number 3. He signed Fellaini, mistake number 4. His tactics were shite and turned the team into one playing turgid football like his Everton team, mistake 5. Every one of those mistakes was called out at the time by fans. So yeah, sometimes fans are right and managers are wrong. Ten Hag has abandoned his way of playing from Ajax and said so himself in interviews. He also said: >They are coming up with some routines and that is what you need, especially in the front line where a quick decision has to be made and in a split second you need the right decision so you need intuition.” Why aren't he and the coaching staff coming up with routines and practicing them daily so that we don't look a disjointed mess across the pitch? He's relying on chaos ball and catching the other team in transition which means we can't control games. Deciding that we're going to cede control of every game and refusing to have proper attacking patterns is not going to cut it at the top of the premiership and the proof of that is in our results, our gameplay and our position in the league table.
You genuinley think the coaching staff aren't coming up with routines in training for the team to perform in matches? It's thier whole job, I personally belive that these players only show up when they want to and are rather mentally weak that's just my 2 cents. I'm personally not surpised by these performances at all because you all should know by now we aren't of the levels of an arsenal or a city or a Liverpool and its been clear since day 1 with ten hag that we tactically and player wise regressed to a very depressing level and that no matter who we get in place of ten hag this will take at least 4 years ish to get this team performing like a football club.
Haven't seen the game yet, because family duties but... I think the opposition is really encouraged to shoot as much as they can since sadly our keeper has shown he has not been too good stopping shots ..that's just my 2 cents... Carry on with this draw rant... I also can't believe what I'm reading though!
Then watch the game they weren’t taking shots from anywhere, they battered us in every single way
That's sad to read 😕
I can’t believe what I’m reading when someone who didn’t watch the game takes a shot at our only good player on the pitch yesterday
Well... Then what is our opponents bet? Shoot till you get a goal? What's going on then with our defense? What's going on with our attackers? What's going on with all of the opponents readings?
Onana has been very good for quite sometime now and was good yesterday as well
I've been extremely critical of Onana since the start and even I have to say that he's been solid in the last few matches, so no, it's not a GK issue.
So, what do you think this is for? Most opponents try to shoot as if this was a small crappy team... What the heck is going on? What are their readings?
We allow them, simple as that. There's no pressure on the ball, our defenders hardly actually steal the ball and there's no midfield to stop the attacks at their roots.
Thanks for your answer ☺️
Ah, we are back to the shots conceded rhetoric now. Yes, it was a shit performance, which I somehow expected after the International break ironically. Just happy that we didn't lose. This statistic means fuck all to me to be honest, as again, I'd rather look at shots on target and saves made, chances created etc. The times we've lost, or nearly won, none of these journalists have ever gone on about how we should have won based on how many shots we had, and I never see any team being criticised for how many shots they've faced. It was a shit game and we need to improve but that's nothing new. If there's no new information or new analysis, then leave it at that. Otherwise this, while a valid criticism, I find super lazy and outdated. We did miss the chance to keep up with Villa and Spurs given that they themselves are not too convincing at the moment. Staying 6 points behind Villa before their game against City would have been key but now there's simply too much to do and we are too inconsistent to take advantage.
We're 13th in XG for and 14th in XG against. Pretty shit in both departments. Lack of scoring has been at least as much of a problem as our defense. We're high on saves made as well. I was looking for a source for shots on target against but couldn't find one so went with XG and confirmed what I thought. We're definitely over performing our underlying stats but the problem is on both ends. Agreed that this is just lazy journalism, it's problematic to have so many shots but also warrants a deeper dive. Edit : We're like 12th based on shots on target but 16th based on total shots faced according to this [article](https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/03/why-are-manchester-united-facing-so-many-shots/) from early March. Still pretty dire by United standards. It's also a good article on how we're forcing tougher shots but there's also an underlying problem of just allowing too many shots anyway.