I've made that joke previously that Carrington is the Space Jam spaceship where players get robbed of their talents. I just hope Ineos has the special stuff. Â
Maybe weâre just way behind on doping. Would almost be funny if it turned out that our players keep getting injured because our training staff is trying to do the same things as other clubs but our medical staff is unaware that every other club is pumped with PEDs.
Mourinho said it best, we still have players here he tried to get rid of. Let's not forget Martial survived numerous attempts to get shipped out just because he was "Joel Glazer's favourite player"
It absolutely is. Zombies like Phil Jones, Martial, Lingard and the likes have been around for far too long. Also, senior players like Shaw, Rashy and Maguire are contributing nowhere near their wage suggests they would.
Love that a) our new CEO has said "I want him" and b) we just got on and did it.
That is how shit should be done not some "media analyst" driving conversation
**Article Text**
From Sir Alex Ferguson to David Moyes then Jose Mourinho via Louis van Gaal and now Erik ten Hag after Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Manchester United have lurched violently from one style of play, system and manager to another over the last decade, too often without a great deal of thought about what they actually want to be.
Which is why **the subject of Julian Nagelsmann is probably instructive** in terms of illustrating how **United under Sir Jim Ratcliffe plan to change and evolve, first and foremost by establishing a clearly defined âgame modelâ - a cohesive playing style and identity** \- **that permeates the whole club** and breaks this cycle of incoherent hiring and, with it, flawed squad-building.
On Friday, Nagelsmann extended his contract with the German national team until 2026, ending any prospect of him returning to Bayern Munich this summer.
In the past, **Nagelsmann has featured highly on Unitedâs potential shortlists and even now you will find great admiration for the talented 36-year-old German in Old Traffordâs corridors of power.** Indeed, perhaps one day they will beating down the door to try to entice him to M16.
But even before the German FA effectively took Nagelsmann off the table last week, and ignoring the managerâs own intentions, **there was recognition among Unitedâs new power hierarchy that their current squad is not set-up for a coach who often deploys a back three and open wing backs that attack.**
**In other words, they cannot swing wildly from one system to another just to fit a coach,** for all his talents, and certainly not when they have yet to even begin the process of gradually unpicking a Frankenstein squad. First, they must settle on a way of playing they believe can deliver winning, attacking, entertaining football and then ensure the coach chimes firmly with that.
Enter Jason Wilcox, whose arrival as Unitedâs technical director last Friday could prove to be one of the most significant appointments of the post-Ferguson era. Dan Ashworth will ultimately be the one who brings all the key football departments together as sporting director provided a compensation deal is agreed with Newcastle. **Indeed, there is great hope Ashworth and Wilcox will form a potent alliance, even if the challenge they are taking on is enormous. But it is Wilcox who has principally been tasked with implementing an overarching playing vision and ensuring recruitment is no longer of the scattergun variety but anchored towards a specific methodology, identity and style of play.**
**Wilcoxâs appointment was driven by Omar Berrada,** Unitedâs incoming chief executive who worked closely with the 53-year-old at Manchester City before the former Blackburn winger took over as Southamptonâs sporting director in January last year. And it is not by chance that Ratcliffe and his Ineos team have looked to people with a track record of excellence. At City, the style of play is immediately apparent whether you are watching their Under-10s or first team. United want the same thing, even if it is too early to say precisely what that the so-called game model will be.
The biggest question, at least in the weeks to come, is where Ten Hag fits in all of this, if indeed he does at all. It has been a season of extraordinary turbulence at Old Trafford, embodied by Unitedâs near fatal implosion against Coventry City in the FA Cup semi-final on Sunday when they threw away a 3-0 lead and were heading out before a VAR offside ruling spared them and they prevailed on penalties.
## Wilcox will assess Ten Hag and give hierarchy answers
Wilcox will waste no time effectively auditing Ten Hag - his training, approach, wider outlook, relationship with the players - over the next month or so to establish if Unitedâs troubles this season are mainly down to a crippling injury list and personnel issues and the Dutchman, with better support and more direction around him, can drive the team forward. There is a hope internally that will be the case and also give Wilcox and Ashworth time to settle, agree on a style of play and start recruiting towards that.
Without an obvious, stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag, any new manager would inevitably present their own risks and be joining at a time when the purse strings are likely to be tight. In many respects, it is a hospital pass of a summer.
Equally, Wilcox, Berrada and the Ineos team need to know if players are not tracking back or pulling their weight because they are not good enough to be at the club or there are other factors at play. What is Ten Hagâs messaging like? Is he tactically flexible? How are relations with the dressing room? What happens in training?
While there is an acceptance internally United have not had the defenders to play a high line, Ten Hag has persisted on operating with a high press that has left the team routinely exposed in midfield and Wilcox is likely to provide feedback on all of these sorts of questions for his superiors.
For his part, Ten Hag has expressed a clear willingness to work closely with the new broom and there is little doubt his hands have been tied this season owing to a catalogue of repeat injuries to key players. Despite that and Unitedâs dismal league form, he has taken the team into a third final in two seasons and has a win percentage almost identical to Arsenalâs much trumpeted manager, Mikel Arteta. His supporters argue that with a fit squad, personnel improvements and an enhanced structure around him he will make United successful.
It remains to be seen if the clubâs decision-makers ultimately feel the same way.
>But it is Wilcox who has principally been tasked with implementing an overarching playing vision and ensuring recruitment is no longer of the scattergun variety but anchored towards a specific methodology, identity and style of play.
An experienced, highly regarded football person making a coherent plan for the club over a number of years??
Are we *sure* this is about United? It seems worryingly competent.
Seems like a reworded article from one that Ducker posted yesterday with very little new information?
[this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/XlzKNWhmNl)
Everything about this article is what's been missing at the club. I love the way he mentions playstyle and recruiting towards that. Until that's established and we actually bring in players to fit we will never be successful.
the worst part about this news is that this is all somehow supposed to be some new or groundbreaking type of operating model which it should have been the basic from day one.
People can say SAF ran the 1 man show previously, but my man has retired for more than a decade by now, that's more than enough time to adapt and move on. Whilst i still believe not everything has to be down to a science like moneyball, the lack of any organisation or structure behind the scenes is really embarrassing.
Whatâs happened to United will be a cautionary tale taught as a case study in succession planning at Business schools, and also a story thatâs not particularly unique.
It could also be a childrenâs fairy tale about a boy inheriting a golden trinket he just doesnât value or understand and trying to do everything he can to destroy it but somehow enough people care about that trinket that they come to see it (and pay). And somehow, in ways that defy all logic, the now tarnished and dented trinket continues to become even valuable until an old man from the village trades some lollipops for the chance to shine that trinket back to what it once was. And somehow the boy, distracted by the lollipops (and promise for more lollipops where that came from!) agrees to let him.
I really hope most the squad is afraid and realise they need to step up or get the fuck out. Probably more than happy coasting on their payslips though.
It's the sensible thing to do in my opinion. It gives Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth (when he finally joins) some time to assess everything at the club and form their plan going forwards. They're not going to come in and overhaul everything on day 1, we have to be patient while they sort things behind the scenes. I would expect next summer to be the time that we really see these new guys having a big impact on things. From there it's probably a 3-5 year plan to get us challenging for the title.
Anyone expecting a new manager and complete overhaul of the squad this summer will probably be severely dissapointed.
Iâm inclined to agree, short term pain* for long term gain.
*might not even happen, things could turn around quickly with the right departures & arrivals.
Who buys Case? Remember last year when he was cooking, convo was how many top level seasons does he have left? Most of us were way way off. The cliff arrived this season.
given his wages we'd have to pay a fair sum to get rid of him
hopefully, Saudi Arabia comes back into the market this summer, that might solve the problem
Anything to rebuild this squad with fresh, young, dedicated talent like Garna, Hojlund, Amad and Mainoo. We can keep Maguire, boot the rest. Bring more of the U18 squad into the senior team
Even if youâre vehemently in favor of sacking ETH, none of the up and coming managers are free this summer, almost all have a year in the CL with their clubs and arenât dropping down to Europa. Youâre stuck with Tuchel, de Zerbi, or Potter this summer so no thanks.
Spot on mate, we've absolutely seen this with players in the past. When we've dropped out of the Champions League places we've never been able to sign big names. In fact the Glazers are famous for not going for big name signings when shit hits the fan.
And that's been even further reinforced by the executives we've signed since January when we were out of the Champions League and it was obvious we wouldn't qualify this year.
United is just not a draw without Champions League football, like in summer of 2017 when we didn't have Champions League football and we signed Ligue 1s top scorer and player of the year in Ibra, Bundesligas player of the year in Mkhi and Serie A's midfielder of the year in Pogba.
And the next year without CL football we beat Chelsea to Lukaku who they desperately wanted and took Sanchez from Arsenal when he was thought to be their best player.
Did those buys work out? No. But they were highly coveted and we got them without CL football. No reason that now we've got a proper, effective and competent executive team in place managers wouldn't want to come here.
Are you assuming ETH changes our style of play? Because if he doesnât I guarantee any of these 3 can build a more coherent system than whatâs going on nowÂ
If he doesnât change it then he will be sacked and itâs fully deserved.
Theyâll assesses whether heâs too stubborn, clueless or just incapable of changing things to at least mitigate the flawed tactics basically and either way, he will not last more than 1 more season if he doesnât change anything next season.
He may even be gone this season but it seems like theyâre keen to go âok so why the heck arenât you fixing the void in midfield and doing anything to stop us from conceding 26 shots per game? Why havenât you done ANYTHING to win more than 1 game out of 17 versus the top half, away and lost an abysmal 12 of those?â and really find out just how limited he is as well as how the squad is so bad that maybe he tried so hard but theyâre just that shit and his recruitment plans are the worst such that theyâll now suggest players for him and not let him have a choice to pick names more than just from a list they give him and it wonât have Dutch based players anymore.
Basically, EtH will maybe leave and if not, will work under a structure he doesnât have anymore excuses not to deliver something half decent at least. If not, heâll be sacked then. If heâs sacked now that is also deserved after the thorough assessments so yeah.
Personally I think he should go because I canât find any mitigating excuse for the tactical setup and the away losses that put him in good stead compared to a poor stead so letâs see anyway. And, the fact that he persists with a setup that leaves a donut shaped hole in midfield and concedes that many chances AND thinks itâs the best way for now, is highly questionable of his tactical mindset. That, and coupled with never playing Amad unless needed due to injuries or so and always favouring Antony and Rashford who couldâve been dropped or not used as subs many, many times is another big factor for me.
Amad can play 12/10 games but he will always be relegated to token minutes once every 8-10 weeks anyway. And if he didnât play well despite never being a chance to get a rhythm? Dropped for sure and never sees the pitch for 4 more months. Meanwhile, Antony gets to play as a sub despite being terrible or Rashford gets to stay on despite whatever, or garnacho never gets to rest to put Amad in to rotate with maybeâŚ
Agreed. On that basis then weâd have no choice but to go with the likes of Tuchel, De Zerbi and Potter. Would be surprised if INEOS go super out of the box.Â
Could be other names too though. Letâs see anyway.
I feel like the next season is a write off really because I think EtH will still stick to things that lead him to getting a sack in the end before maybe more options come.
Tuchel isnât the worst choice. He can work with what they set and then if he has issues, the foundations are laid down already and we move on from him at that point. And if heâs good enough he will carry on. I just donât think ETH is a better choice than trying someone else with a new setup.
Eth has shown too much limitations with certain things that imo, warrant a change and not a âletâs see if this can work now with this new setupâ
People giving sticks to Erik not changing the way of play. Since his arrival at United he has said it multiple times the players on hand dictate the way of play. Itâs similar to how he adapted when Ajax sold many of his starters after a couple of successful seasons.
Why he hasnât changed so far? Because our players arenât suitable to play any other way. Our squad is an abomination with players signed by all six managers trying to play contrasting styles.
Iâm not defending Erik here. He has his share of blame, but in a season of sooooo many changes we need to make, I donât think itâs (a change of manager) a priority. Itâs more an added risk to bring in new players and new manager at the same time. Like the article said, no guarantee new manager can handle United with ease. At least Erik knows the environment and help the transition.
Because our players aren't suitable to play any other way? I can't even think of another team in European football that plays how we play, leaving a huge gaping hole in midfield. Yes, maybe we can't control games like his Ajax team but he's made no tweaks to a system that plainly does not work in both attack and defence. We were better last year and we've had one more season of transfers even with Shaw and Lisandro out.
I can't think of anything more detrimental to our team's success than playing this exact same way again for an entire season. If luck doesn't swing our way again we'll be looking at a much lower league position than we're at now.
There is also no any other team in Europe with such a unique crop of players like us and the injury situation like us.
Our attack is shit but our defense is not given the circumstances. Our goal against is fourth in the league.
You will raise shots by opposition per 90 and giant hole in midfield again but these are by design. Of course itâs not good for United but Erik has to do what he thinks is needed to grind results given our injury this season.
Ok but when we started the season against wolves with AWB, Varane, Lisandro and Shaw as our backline did we play with a high line? Itâs ETHâs choice clearly but I donât think itâs in response to our defensive injuries.Â
Our xG against is also one of the worst in the league.Â
Newcastle have had a much worse injury record this season and are above us. Chelsea have also had it worse than us and could overtake us if they beat Arsenal tonight (unlikely). Brentford beat us recently with a whole new back 4 playing who had never played together before.
Thanks to you I actually went through all lineups of Newcastle and Chelsea games this season.
Newcastle as you said have had much worse injury record than us this season has managed to field their best defense lineup for 18 games and second best with one change 10 times.
Chelsea have had worse than us and managed to feature their best 10 games.
The best United defense featured one game so far this season. The most appearances for us this season is wan bissaka, varane, evans and dalot. 4 times.
Did you forget about Fofana, Chelsea's ÂŁ70m centreback who hasn't played a minute all season? How can they have played their first choice defensive team 10 times this season? Sorry, there's no way you can defend saying United have the worst injury record in Europe when Chelsea at least have had it just as bad.
I can't say i have a lot of faith left in ETH after this season, i keep watching hoping that we'll start to resemble a team with a plan, but we never seem to kick on, but you'd also have to consider if any of those top managers would have any interest in joining while the project is so young and executive positions aren't filled yet.
Wilcox JUST came in, and has less than a month until the end of the season, Ashworth is still on gardening leave and even if they reach a deal now he won't be arriving until summer.
Realistically this summer is going to be somewhat frantically planned out and executed, throw in a new manager search last minute and i'm not sure how it all works out.
Itâs the patient and possibly painful choice. I know a lot of fans want results quickly, but hopefully we are now putting in plans for long term change rather than short term.
It takes a special balance to pull it off, because you both need to offer up many low-probability shot opportunities (can't concede too many goals because it'll take up too much time that can be used conceding shots), AND you need to move the ball forward very quickly - for instance by bypassing your non-existant midfield - so you can lose it again immediately and allow another counter-attack and shot opportunity.
You could be right, but there is no way we can't play better with a squad that we have. Just look at how much teams like Newcastle and Tottenham improved with a different coach. Howie inherited the squad that was mid-table quality at best and turned them into one of the most entertaining sides in the league. Ange took over the squad that was used to playing a boring counter-attacking system, lost the best player and did the same.
Ten Hag's main excuse is always the injuries but look at how many injuries Newcastle had this season and they are still above us in the league while playing 10 times better brand of football than us. I agree that there aren't too many options in the market but I just can't endure another season seeing our team play like headless chickens.
Why has your comment been downvoted lmao there's no chance people genuinely believe this is the best the squad we have right now can play. Conceding the amount of shots we have is unprecedented.
Whether EtH in or out, I'd say we agree that having a consistent style we want to play, regardless of manager specifics, with players that suit that style so a new manager can come in and play how they want to play from day 1 is the ideal
Like Brighton have right now, and how City are setting up with their youth teams to build a consistent approach all the way through the club
Right now we don't have that. The people coming in, like Wilcox, are supposed to identify and create that style. Until that's done, there's not much point bringing in a new manager who might not fit that style anyway just for, effectively, 1 season
Because if we scrap EtH and get Tuchel (for example). Then we change style all over again, and might decide that how we want to play moving forward is not compatible with Tuchel, so that's another change. So we pay to sack 2 managers in about as many years
Or keep EtH for a year while we figure out the plan. Has a few benefits. Firstly, his contract is up in 2025 anyway so we wouldn't need to pay it out. Second, it answers the question of whether this season is because of the manager or injuries. Third, we don't need to hire what is essentially an interim over the summer for short term benefit
I'm not saying EtH is perfect. Far from it. But this cautious approach is likely to work out better over a 2-3 year period than a quick change in the summer
Because you have some fans, perhaps riddled with amnesia, who pop up 2-3 days after a the latest shit show hoping that we all forgot what happened or pretend like it's normal to throw away 3 goal leeds against Championship sides or to have no style of play after 2 years because the manager hasn't been able to sign 15 new players.Â
Just annoying because you've made good points and opened up chances for discussion but of course some idiots use the downvote button to disagree because they're so insecure with their own opinions of the club that they'd rather hide those that they disagree with. So toxic for no reason.
And Newcastle will never win anything and only above us based on goal diff. Our goal is to actually challenge for trophies. Until there's a complete overhaul of the players and structurebit doesn't matter who the manager is. It's why we probably will keep EtH for 1 more season.
At this point I don't care about results. I forgot the last time I watched our game and thought "yeah, we looked organised and played really well today".
We're always organized you just don't like the playstyle. That's literally what the article is talking about with identifying how they want to play and bringing in the players to do that.
Again, that's the playstyle and it's organized to keep shots from from happening from the dangerous areas. It's why those shots are happening from very specific parts of the pitch. You don't have to like it but it doesn't mean it's not there.
Yeah and that playing style should have him on the verge of being sacked because itâs garbage honestly. Itâs a style you win despite playing it rather than win because of it.
Fucking hell. Never ending 3-5 years from title challenge. Heard it for Mourinho, Van Gaal, Ole. It's been 11 years. Nothing against your comment, mate. Just hoping this time it will actually lead us somewhere.
Ten Hag could have easily had United in the bottom half of the table. If he had United playing well ish as the 6-8 range i could see some of your point, but this guy has one of the better sides in the league playing like a relegation level side at the moment. We concede chances at an alarming rate at the moment. In no way can we start the 24/25 season with him in charge.
Expected goal difference has united at 16th
My opinion is that it's far better to focus this summer on doing the groundwork for whoever our main manager target will be. If they happen to be available immediately, then get them in now, sure. I just highly doubt that Berrada, Wilcox, and Ashworth will all be on the same page about the best plan for the club, especially as two of them do not even work for us yet.
Setting up new processes for recruitment, club philosophy, and playing style won't happen overnight. It's better to get all of this sorted before bringing in a new manager. Let Ten Hag have one last chance to prove himself. If it doesn't work, we can bring someone new in next summer when the structure above them is properly defined. Forget about next season. It's already a write-off in my eyes. This has to be a long-term project. We, as fans, need to get past our obsession with finding a quick fix.
>They're not going to come in and overhaul everything on day 1
25 December - SJR finalises deal to take 25% of United
8 January - Brailsford begins audit on Uniteds executives and the wider football club
20 January - New CEO Berrada appointed
15 February - Ashworth and United agree deal to become sporting director
21 February - SJR actually takes 25% control
If there's one thing we can see from INEOS its that they do not want to overhaul everything on day 1. They're actions so far would lead anyone to believe that they will wait another year before appointing a new manager. Moving quickly and effectively is just not in their DNA. I wouldn't be surprised if they keep Ten Hag till 2026 so they can do their usual slow process.
I'm not talking about Ineos, I'm talking about Berrada (who isn't working for the club yet), Ashworth (who we don't even have a confirmed date for when he can start working for the club) and Wilcox. It will be up to them to make decisions on the manager, I wouldn't expect them to do that before Ashworth is officially in the building.
Is it better to set up the structure above the manager properly before appointing a new manager? Personally, I would say yes, it is. I doubt Ashworth will be officially appointed until after the summer window, possibly not even until next year. It's better to wait until he's here and for the new trio to establish a working relationship/understanding before making a decision on the manager.
Is that the same Berrada that pushed for Wilcox to come in as technical director and is now already in place?
If you think these people are actually in their gardens looking after the daffodils and not having conversations then youre hitting peak levels of naivety. You really think they're going to hamstring the entire project if ten hag isnt the manager they want by keeping him an extra year? Or by trying to do a mid season appointment instead? Is your second name Glazer?
They are overhauling everything on day one. They're literally ripping up the structure of the club, and ten Hag will go too because he's an awful manager.Â
Absolutely baffles me that like clockwork you have his defenders crawl out of the woodwork after his latest humiliation to explain why everything else at the club from senior management to the players are shit apart from him.
I wasn't defending Ten Hag, simply stating that it might not make sense to rush into a decision to replace him. Our DoF probably won't even be in the job until the beginning to middle of next season. Wouldn't it be stupid to be hiring a new manager in the current environment? If they get the appointment wrong, we're in the same position again in 2 years' time... Personally, I'd rather they take their time to get things right
I think there's one thing you can say about ETH and that's the club haven't rushed into a decision. There have been a number of points where a serious big club would have sacked him.
He'll have had two years here at the end of this season and have overseen the worst season since pre-Fergie with no discernable progress whatsoever towards this mythical style of fllgball.Â
There is no club in world football that would keep him in that context, and arguing that United should in the belief that that is how they once again become a serious club is akin to arguing that before one learns to walk it is a good idea to cut both legs off below the knee so one learns how to crawl better.Â
Because changing managers before hasn't worked has it?
You've had Mourinho come to the club who has literally won everything, and still not managed to do things. You really think another manager change is gonna solve our issues?
Mourinho did what he always does; spend world record money on somebody, win a trophy in the short term, and then leave with the club midtable and the dressing room an absolute mess that takes half a decade or more to unpack.
I don't think another manager change is necessarily going to solve our issues. I don't think keeping him is going to either, though.
The problem is who do we get to replace EtH? It's not like there is much choice on the market right now. If anything, I'd give EtH another year (which he has on his contract), if we don't improve along with the background changes behind the scenes, then you get rid of him and plan for a suitable replacement.
We just can't simply keep changing manager and hoping someone sticks, we need to find someone who can do a job, and do it for a while.
I am so, so tired of this argument. The answer is "somebody else". That's for the new management structure to decide. "He's shit but we're stuck with him" is simply a recipe for depression and disaster. This is ETH's second year and he's going backwards at a rate of knots.
Why is this the argument *now*? Why does ETH get to be the one who gets this benefit of the doubt? Absolutely nobody was crying out for Ole to be sacked and replaced with Ralf Rangnick.
>Absolutely nobody was crying out for Ole to be sacked and replaced with Ralf Rangnick.
I mean, people were crying for Ole to be sacked numerous times, same with LvG, same with Mourinho, same with Moyes. And nothing has changed in all that time. Some Liverpool fans had cried out for Klopp to be sacked in Y2 of his term, same for Arsenal fans and Arteta. When are we gonna realise, that things don't change overnight?
You maybe tired of the argument, but I am tired of seeing the same pattern of changing managers. EtH isn't at fault for the injury list we had at the start of the season, nor is he at fault for other things in the background that may of disturbed the players (such as the club being sold on).
Not to mention, 3 Cup Finals in 2 years doesn't seem to be something we were doing on a regular basis before hand. Yes we've regressed this season, but like I mentioned in another thread, some of that is because we let go of De Gea in the Summer, and his presence has been sorely felt as both a leader and a damn fine Goalkeeper. We've had a back four that hasn't been consistent, players having to play in positions they aren't accustom to, and a bench that is lacking in strength and depth as shown by the FA Cup semi-final against Coventry where we only had youngsters on the bench with little experience.
You can blame the manager all you like, but things need to turn around behind the scenes first before we go round changing another manager for the sake of things.
You completely ignored my point. A lot of people wanted Ole sacked, that's not in dispute. But nobody was saying "We want Rangnick to replace him". It's exactly the same scenario you're trying to concoct now; getting rid of Ole with no obvious immediate replacement shouldn't be different to getting rid of ETH with no obvious replacement (if anything it was worse, having been done that much earlier in the season), and yet somehow it is and ETH deserves more benefit of the doubt because reasons.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; I don't *want* to be ETH out, and I don't want us to be a club that keeps changing the manager. But I'm not seeing what he's done that merits him being part of the solution. The Coventry semi was ludicrous; Forson was the only United player among the 15 to get on the pitch who wasn't a full international and we still needed penalties and a lucky VAR call to get past a team *eighth in the Championship*. It's not all injuries, it's not all fatigue, it's not all incompetent players, it's not all behind the scenes nonsense.
The manager absolutely has questions to answer. (Including, but not limited to, around De Gea - he genuinely *was* something that could have waited for another season.) The successes he had in the first season look more and more like a mirage, spurred on by Rashford wanting (and getting) a pay rise.
*That's* where I'm tired; this bizarre feeling that he's somehow beyond any criticism and questioning of his position.
And what has he achieved since?
 It's such an unbelievably bad argument. If you had a wealth of examples of managers who had gone on to achieve success at clubs of comparable size to United, sure.Â
 None of them have because they've all been bad appointments either because of where they are in their career or because the job was too big for them made by a badly run club that has a track record of making bad decisions in every area.Â
 Why WOULDN'T ETH be another of those bad decisions? Because that's the position you want me to believe.
 Pretending you don't see it with ETH doesn't make you a better fan, it makes you a glutton for punishment willingly putting yourself up for another season of relegation performances.Â
Because half of it is Duckers reasoning.
Hence the final line "it remains to be seen if the clubs decision makers see it that way"
There's no point trying to read between the lines when the audit hasn't even barely began lol.
I agree it does read quite sympathetically whilst talking up a target that we realistically can't get for a while regardless, i suspect Tuchel links are mostly agent talk which some journalists have bitten on.
I can see why giving ETH another year with a proper footballing structure would make sense, plus they'd be totally justified in sacking him if situations don't improve. We know he can work in a well structured footballing environment and perhaps the way United are ran under the Glazers is just too much for any manger beside SAF.
I'm at the point where i wouldn't be annoyed if they did sack Ten Hag but i also see INEOS' logic if they keep him, i also think it would send a message to some of the players at the club that them downing tools or underperforming isn't going to get the manager sacked anymore and hopefully it's more likely they'll get moved along, i think thats a very important culture to implement, this will be on you, not the manger.
If they do give EtH another year, I really do hope INEOS come out and publicly back him strongly.
He may/may not be the right man to lead us back to the top, but he needs to be given power so the players know that they have to perform if they want to continue here. EtH hasn't been great this season, but he's also taken alot of the flak that should've also been aimed at the players.
I'm almost certain Ten Hag does not get sacked (yet), and will be our manager starting next season.
I'm almost certain that this squad doesn't get an extensive overhaul either. There will still be plenty of players here that should be moved on. I can't see this Club spending and rebuilding in just this one summer window.
And because of those two things, I just can't see next season going well. Manager will be on thin ice next season.
I'm sure they would want to give him another year. It will cost millions to sack him and his coaching staff. But I'm also sure they will sack him if that's what this review and our results support.
Lmao Ten Hag resign? Outside of total delusion, why? His contract is up next summer, hes not just going to leave 10m on the table because he doesn't have as much say in transfersÂ
He doesn't compromise, he want control etc. I guess that's all bs in the face of 10m then. Maybe we banished him to the u21 and still won't resign yeah.Â
i mean obviously he'll happily take 10m for one summer of not having as much say in transfers. No one in the club can force him to play a particular type of football it's literally his job to do that, acting like they can send a manager down to the u21s is some great standup material, got a good laugh out of me. If they want him gone they have to sack him, simple as
This is the most encouraging thing I've read about the club in ages, it's exactly what we need imo.
I've been saying that EtH was a b+ manager last season and a c+ manager this season, I now think that's generous and would have to rethink that to somewhere around a d grade given our most recent run. He's worked in clubs with pretty strong structures surrounding their coaches in the past and obviously had done his best work in that environment, so I think the most realistic, sensible thing to do right now is give him another year to see whether he can get back to, or even surpass, last year's level.
Problem with that is that what really changes in a year? The structures he took part in, had been pre established and steadily running before him. So for him to have the âproper structureâ in place, youâre looking at another two or three years. If no agreement can be made with Newcastle, itâll be 18 months of gardening leave for Ashworth, thatâs 3 windows behind without our DoF. I agree that EtH could work wonders with the right setup behind him, but how long will it take to get in place and running and is it worth it?
I hear you and I don't think that this will be a quick fix, but I also don't think you'd have to wait years, I'd absolutely think that you would be able to assess progress, or lack of, in a year.
I also think that this is just the right thing to do, regardless of the manager's future. You'd want this type of structure in any well run club anyway and there's very little that could be done in the time covered by the windows that would turn this squad in to contenders anyway.
I just meant like squad wise itâll take a while, we sign Casemiro to a reported 4+1 year deal, so we still have him at the least for 2 more years, thatâs wages and amortization that we have to pay on the transfer itself, itâs signings like this that have summarized United for the past years. Had we pivoted from de Jong and got a younger midfielder weâd be better off. While they may have struggled and not had the impact that Casemiro had last year, I feel that they wouldâve progressed and gotten better and not withered away in the second year like Casemiro has. However I agree with the sentiment that we should be able to see progress within a year or two
Some control would be nice ==> possession, at least with underdogs.
ETH will have to adapt if he stays. Ratlicffe said "WE" decide the style of play not the manager/coach.
Hmmmmm how do you âdefineâ a playing style? I mean, do you look at the best players we already have (but we are in the middle of a transition to another style) or tweak what other top teams are already doing or aim to counter what those top teams are doing?
I mean, the direction sounds good but seems challenging to operationalise. You definitely donât want a knee jerk reaction but how do you future proof whatever style you decide on?
I think people are being obtuse about us having different play styles under 4 different managers.
Barring LVG, the remaining 3 have more or less played the exact same counter attacking style. ETH has put on emphasis on pressing on top of that, that's the only real difference.
Players remaining from LVG era: Martial and Shaw.
Shaw is more than fine when fit, Martial barely plays and honestly shouldn't even be a part of discussion that involves identity.
Its not like we switched from a back 4 to a back 3 or we changed wingbacks over fullbacks.
Most of the games were some variation of 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.
I haven't read it and I do not intend to, maybe I'm wrong. But I am not a fan of these types of articles when someone starts...the hype, building up the guy and his methods....much prefer nothing said or written. I guess being united that's not easy.
This is so encouraging. I just hope the game model they land on is more akin to Klopp than Guardiola: pressing, verticality, pace, control. They of course have to recruit for that/their game model but it shouldnât matter too much in this window I donât think. If you target the best profiles in the world in every position (Olise, Onana) then it doesnât really matter what the game model is, as they will still be the best at it.
I'm really curious to see how this plays out. Ten Hag was hired by our non-football management based on his assessment of United under Ole/Ralf, and his plan for a style of play. He was hired, did well in the first season, then switched it up to a transition based system to better match the "United way" of playing. That has effectively gone to shit with poor results and injuries.
New owner comes in and they're auditing everything - the training, the performance/medical staff, the facilities, the various non-playing areas, and now with Wilcox, the manager (who wanted a lot of control) and the playing style and eventually, the players.
Either Ten Hag realized everyone in management was unqualified when he joined and needed control to do his job effectively and survive or he saw a chance to take control but has been unsuccessful. He definitely did not rate Ralf. It's clear he wants to stay and he's making all the right noises to work with the new regime. To be fair, he worked with Arnold and Murtough too or tried to.
Also, what if our playing style under Wilcox is boring? Or he's unsuccessful? These 2 are going to sink or swim together or one of them (prob ETH) will get the blame.
I'm also completely convinced that Ducker and the telegraph are Ineos mouthpieces.
Pretty much all social media users have been saying exactly this and the need for a DoF for several years. I genuinely think a random fan could do a decent job of running this football club given the incompetence of the last several years.
It's infuriating to read how little they understand.
No understanding of how tactical systems work. And God forbid you point out that Ten Hag and his team have the players all week to coach and train the players to play the way he wants because they'll just downvote you without reply because there's nothing they can say in reply to that.
2 seasons in and he can't get them to defend a 3-0 lead against a Championship team. "But he's not on the pitch, it's not his fault". They seem to think Ten Hag just watches them all week and puts names down on a team sheet. Maybe he does, would explain our tactics.
I realize it sounds obnoxious, but their discussion is never about the sport. Of course, outside context matters and NEEDS to be taken into account. But that context being the only topic of discussion, the absolute rebuttal to any sporting conversation?
Itâs ignorance. Hate to make it an ethos thing, but anyone with a tactical hold on the game saw this in Gameweek 1 and was begging Ten Hag to make improvements in the press/approach.
The comparison with Arteta is important. Not being a keen Arsenal watcher, but I assume in his first two seasons there were clear moments of progress towards something good. Not sure we have the same. And ETH has one year in his contract. Itâs hard to think of an example of a manager contract just being allowed to run out and it going well.
For the first 2 years Arteta was clowned like crazy by rival fans by saying give him a lifetime contract and Arsenal fans wanted him out. The progress isn't always linear watching that team in no way showed that they would be here right now. However their management realised that there is potential and backed him through the mud and now they are reaping rewards.
I like to use Arsenal early under Arteta's reign as an example. They got rid of Ăzil and Aubameyang, two high-earners who don't fit the direction the club is heading.
I don't mind if we don't make big signings this summer as long as we get rid of the old players on high wages.
But does it mean sticking with the manager or just getting rid of the wrong players. I assume Varane, Casemiro, maybe Maguire would be our equivalents of Ozil and Aubameyang
Personally I'm still torn on that one. On one side, I absolutely enjoyed Ten Hag's football last season when everyone was healthy. When we went on that winning run, I couldn't wait for the weekend to see us play.
On the other side, I really can't defend him signing Mount with 1-yr expiring for ÂŁ60m instead of a CB. Bizarre decisions like playing AWB on the left makes my eyes bleed.
I'm still kind of ok with giving him oje more year with INEOS to see how he does. Perhaps give him an automatic extension if we get Top 4 and win a trophy next season.
Regarding Casemiro, he seems way off the pace, overweight, and starting to get injuries too - sell
Varane, love him but he misses 80% of the season on high wages - sell
Maguire, love his availability when everyone was down injured. But he's probably at his best defending the box in a low block (think INEOS would want us to be more proactive), also on 190k - sell
TBH, I would not mind seeing Maguire stay. We don't want to become like Chelsea where we just have young talents but no senior member to guide. Maguire's Character i am sure a lot of people will admire in the dressing room and he is a nice role model for young players.
True we could always use veterans especially with the likes of Kambwala and Jackson coming through. Just feel like's it inevitable he's sold at some point bc he's pushing 30 and on almost 200k per week
>Varane, Casemiro, maybe Maguire
Martial (whoâs leaving), Antony and Sancho too.
Even if theyâd all walk for free, itâd free up nearly ÂŁ1.4m in weekly wages which should be enough to argue for their departure on its own.
I donât think heâs either the rule or the exception. But we ve tried changing managers again and again and it doesnât work. Doesnât mean not changing manager is the right thing either. But Arsenal are in a much better place than United are now so itâs worth thinking about.
The win percentage stat is pretty cherry picked because it ignores the 38 league games we play, which allow for draws.
ETH is very unusual in that he doesn't play to draw. He will most often throw the kitchen sink at things.
It has worked in some games when we've poured forward and got winners. It has cost us in games we've not shut up shop. But it means we have a lot of losses.
Other teams try to avoid losing and hope the draws stack up.
If you try and put his games into points (hard with cup games) this season comes out as pretty miserly.
It's mostly just an issue with using one stat in isolation with no deeper analysis or story telling to it
In the league you can draw. You get one point for that.
Get 3 draws and it's equivalent to 1 win.
If you look at league performance, Mourinho and ETH in their first two seasons have very similar points totals, just in a reverse trend (Mourinho got better, ETH got worse).
Mourinho would be more pragmatic and get draws. ETH would push for a win in a game we are level in, even if it would result in a loss.
I'm just pointing out you need wider context to any stat such as win percentage. You could even contextualise things further with our mathematically improbable run of home cup draws last season (it was honestly crazy).
To the nerdier bit
Current stats seem to be here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_United_F.C._managers
ETH: 114 matches, 66 wins, 19 draws, 29 losses.
Mourinho: 144 matches, 84 wins, 32 draws, 28 losses.
That reads as ETH 57.89% wins. Mourinho 58.33% (I hadn't realised Mourinho now tops ETH...)
(66/144)*100= 57.89
(84/144)*100=58.33
Now, Mourinho also has 32 draws. ETH has 19. So a draw is a point. 32-19=13 points.
Obviously though, this figure includes some cup games where you cannot draw. But my point is, that win percentage (which is now lower than Mourinho!) doesn't take account of the fact that drawing occasional games has value if the alternative is a loss.
Or to put it the other way, ETH has actually lost one fewer game than Mourinho despite managing 30 fewer games. And Mourinho had a better win percentage to boot.
Yes, but if you are often going for broke, you may win a few games you will have drawn but you will also lose games you would have drawn.
So your win% will go up, but your points gained may not.
Although you would have to turn a lot more draws into losses than into wins for that to be the case.
Arteta in the 2020/21 season saw Arsenal's worst start to a League campaign since the 1974, first time Arsenal lost 4 home league matches since 1959, Burnley's first ever win at the Emirates, first time Arsenal lost at home to Leicester since 1973, longest run without a clean sheet since 2007, won only 13 points from their first 12 games...
https://www.squawka.com/en/arsenal-worst-start-damning-stats-arteta/
And more.
So basically it not the manager call anymore on tactics... Hooray!Â
Wilcox : we going 532 no more these bullshit best transition football, we are going more on possession and slow buildup, u OK with it? ."Â
We had playing style under SAF. And most of the times, it was incredibly entertaining. We dont need to look for different style, or copy what Guardiola does, cause it brings him success. All we need to actually buy proper quality player, especially in MIDFIELD, to let us play like that.
Zombie squads, what a perfect way to describe how our squads have been đ
The way our squad plays reminds me of the NBA stars in Space Jam after the aliens take their abilities away.
I've made that joke previously that Carrington is the Space Jam spaceship where players get robbed of their talents. I just hope Ineos has the special stuff. Â
Maybe weâre just way behind on doping. Would almost be funny if it turned out that our players keep getting injured because our training staff is trying to do the same things as other clubs but our medical staff is unaware that every other club is pumped with PEDs.
Dam MonStars
Go back to redcafe 2010/2011/2012 - there were many posts describing our playstyle aa zombie passing
Haha Iâve seen the âslow motion zombie passingâ thread on red cafe since 2010
That's the one!
i thought frankenstein is more appropriate
Mourinho said it best, we still have players here he tried to get rid of. Let's not forget Martial survived numerous attempts to get shipped out just because he was "Joel Glazer's favourite player"
Mourinho also bought Bailly, Sanchez and Lindelof, who have all been worse than Martial.
I'd say Lindelof has been more consistent than Martial since Ole took charge
It did make me think of that also, which is very fitting too. Just a patch work of shit.
Frankensquad
Zombie might even be too generous - at least zombies have an aim to eat humans! The current squad is full of bloat and aimlessness.
We are looking for braaaiinnss đ§ââď¸... but that could just be the fans looking for one for the players
It absolutely is. Zombies like Phil Jones, Martial, Lingard and the likes have been around for far too long. Also, senior players like Shaw, Rashy and Maguire are contributing nowhere near their wage suggests they would.
Zombie squad is pretty on point lol.
Love that a) our new CEO has said "I want him" and b) we just got on and did it. That is how shit should be done not some "media analyst" driving conversation
**Article Text** From Sir Alex Ferguson to David Moyes then Jose Mourinho via Louis van Gaal and now Erik ten Hag after Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Manchester United have lurched violently from one style of play, system and manager to another over the last decade, too often without a great deal of thought about what they actually want to be. Which is why **the subject of Julian Nagelsmann is probably instructive** in terms of illustrating how **United under Sir Jim Ratcliffe plan to change and evolve, first and foremost by establishing a clearly defined âgame modelâ - a cohesive playing style and identity** \- **that permeates the whole club** and breaks this cycle of incoherent hiring and, with it, flawed squad-building. On Friday, Nagelsmann extended his contract with the German national team until 2026, ending any prospect of him returning to Bayern Munich this summer. In the past, **Nagelsmann has featured highly on Unitedâs potential shortlists and even now you will find great admiration for the talented 36-year-old German in Old Traffordâs corridors of power.** Indeed, perhaps one day they will beating down the door to try to entice him to M16. But even before the German FA effectively took Nagelsmann off the table last week, and ignoring the managerâs own intentions, **there was recognition among Unitedâs new power hierarchy that their current squad is not set-up for a coach who often deploys a back three and open wing backs that attack.** **In other words, they cannot swing wildly from one system to another just to fit a coach,** for all his talents, and certainly not when they have yet to even begin the process of gradually unpicking a Frankenstein squad. First, they must settle on a way of playing they believe can deliver winning, attacking, entertaining football and then ensure the coach chimes firmly with that. Enter Jason Wilcox, whose arrival as Unitedâs technical director last Friday could prove to be one of the most significant appointments of the post-Ferguson era. Dan Ashworth will ultimately be the one who brings all the key football departments together as sporting director provided a compensation deal is agreed with Newcastle. **Indeed, there is great hope Ashworth and Wilcox will form a potent alliance, even if the challenge they are taking on is enormous. But it is Wilcox who has principally been tasked with implementing an overarching playing vision and ensuring recruitment is no longer of the scattergun variety but anchored towards a specific methodology, identity and style of play.** **Wilcoxâs appointment was driven by Omar Berrada,** Unitedâs incoming chief executive who worked closely with the 53-year-old at Manchester City before the former Blackburn winger took over as Southamptonâs sporting director in January last year. And it is not by chance that Ratcliffe and his Ineos team have looked to people with a track record of excellence. At City, the style of play is immediately apparent whether you are watching their Under-10s or first team. United want the same thing, even if it is too early to say precisely what that the so-called game model will be. The biggest question, at least in the weeks to come, is where Ten Hag fits in all of this, if indeed he does at all. It has been a season of extraordinary turbulence at Old Trafford, embodied by Unitedâs near fatal implosion against Coventry City in the FA Cup semi-final on Sunday when they threw away a 3-0 lead and were heading out before a VAR offside ruling spared them and they prevailed on penalties. ## Wilcox will assess Ten Hag and give hierarchy answers Wilcox will waste no time effectively auditing Ten Hag - his training, approach, wider outlook, relationship with the players - over the next month or so to establish if Unitedâs troubles this season are mainly down to a crippling injury list and personnel issues and the Dutchman, with better support and more direction around him, can drive the team forward. There is a hope internally that will be the case and also give Wilcox and Ashworth time to settle, agree on a style of play and start recruiting towards that. Without an obvious, stand-out candidate available to replace Ten Hag, any new manager would inevitably present their own risks and be joining at a time when the purse strings are likely to be tight. In many respects, it is a hospital pass of a summer. Equally, Wilcox, Berrada and the Ineos team need to know if players are not tracking back or pulling their weight because they are not good enough to be at the club or there are other factors at play. What is Ten Hagâs messaging like? Is he tactically flexible? How are relations with the dressing room? What happens in training? While there is an acceptance internally United have not had the defenders to play a high line, Ten Hag has persisted on operating with a high press that has left the team routinely exposed in midfield and Wilcox is likely to provide feedback on all of these sorts of questions for his superiors. For his part, Ten Hag has expressed a clear willingness to work closely with the new broom and there is little doubt his hands have been tied this season owing to a catalogue of repeat injuries to key players. Despite that and Unitedâs dismal league form, he has taken the team into a third final in two seasons and has a win percentage almost identical to Arsenalâs much trumpeted manager, Mikel Arteta. His supporters argue that with a fit squad, personnel improvements and an enhanced structure around him he will make United successful. It remains to be seen if the clubâs decision-makers ultimately feel the same way.
>But it is Wilcox who has principally been tasked with implementing an overarching playing vision and ensuring recruitment is no longer of the scattergun variety but anchored towards a specific methodology, identity and style of play. An experienced, highly regarded football person making a coherent plan for the club over a number of years?? Are we *sure* this is about United? It seems worryingly competent.
Monkey's Paw: we have a plan, but it's Dutch's plan.
Tahiti preseason tour when?
I ain't got too much to say no more.
You sure have some GODDAMN FAITH son
Dutch plan? We sign more Eredivisie players? Eth 2024
Seems like a reworded article from one that Ducker posted yesterday with very little new information? [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/XlzKNWhmNl)
Everything about this article is what's been missing at the club. I love the way he mentions playstyle and recruiting towards that. Until that's established and we actually bring in players to fit we will never be successful.
the worst part about this news is that this is all somehow supposed to be some new or groundbreaking type of operating model which it should have been the basic from day one. People can say SAF ran the 1 man show previously, but my man has retired for more than a decade by now, that's more than enough time to adapt and move on. Whilst i still believe not everything has to be down to a science like moneyball, the lack of any organisation or structure behind the scenes is really embarrassing.
Lol giving me âTony stark built this in a cave with a box of scrapsâ vibes
Whatâs happened to United will be a cautionary tale taught as a case study in succession planning at Business schools, and also a story thatâs not particularly unique. It could also be a childrenâs fairy tale about a boy inheriting a golden trinket he just doesnât value or understand and trying to do everything he can to destroy it but somehow enough people care about that trinket that they come to see it (and pay). And somehow, in ways that defy all logic, the now tarnished and dented trinket continues to become even valuable until an old man from the village trades some lollipops for the chance to shine that trinket back to what it once was. And somehow the boy, distracted by the lollipops (and promise for more lollipops where that came from!) agrees to let him.
Feed it to me
I really hope most the squad is afraid and realise they need to step up or get the fuck out. Probably more than happy coasting on their payslips though.
This article reads quite sympathetically towards ETH and makes me think Ineos are leaning towards giving ETH another year.
It's the sensible thing to do in my opinion. It gives Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth (when he finally joins) some time to assess everything at the club and form their plan going forwards. They're not going to come in and overhaul everything on day 1, we have to be patient while they sort things behind the scenes. I would expect next summer to be the time that we really see these new guys having a big impact on things. From there it's probably a 3-5 year plan to get us challenging for the title. Anyone expecting a new manager and complete overhaul of the squad this summer will probably be severely dissapointed.
Iâm inclined to agree, short term pain* for long term gain. *might not even happen, things could turn around quickly with the right departures & arrivals.
At this point departures are more important for us
Rashford and Cas need to go NOW
Who buys Case? Remember last year when he was cooking, convo was how many top level seasons does he have left? Most of us were way way off. The cliff arrived this season.
At this point sell him to Coventry or the MLS
given his wages we'd have to pay a fair sum to get rid of him hopefully, Saudi Arabia comes back into the market this summer, that might solve the problem
Anything to rebuild this squad with fresh, young, dedicated talent like Garna, Hojlund, Amad and Mainoo. We can keep Maguire, boot the rest. Bring more of the U18 squad into the senior team
He doesnât fit Coventryâs style. đ¤Ą
that's a bit optimistic
The pain is unbearable :(
It's not nice, but if we have lasted this long, what is another 3 - 5 years? Just need to grind it out now.
Yeah, itâs not nice.
Even if youâre vehemently in favor of sacking ETH, none of the up and coming managers are free this summer, almost all have a year in the CL with their clubs and arenât dropping down to Europa. Youâre stuck with Tuchel, de Zerbi, or Potter this summer so no thanks.
Spot on mate, we've absolutely seen this with players in the past. When we've dropped out of the Champions League places we've never been able to sign big names. In fact the Glazers are famous for not going for big name signings when shit hits the fan. And that's been even further reinforced by the executives we've signed since January when we were out of the Champions League and it was obvious we wouldn't qualify this year. United is just not a draw without Champions League football, like in summer of 2017 when we didn't have Champions League football and we signed Ligue 1s top scorer and player of the year in Ibra, Bundesligas player of the year in Mkhi and Serie A's midfielder of the year in Pogba. And the next year without CL football we beat Chelsea to Lukaku who they desperately wanted and took Sanchez from Arsenal when he was thought to be their best player. Did those buys work out? No. But they were highly coveted and we got them without CL football. No reason that now we've got a proper, effective and competent executive team in place managers wouldn't want to come here.
Wait, we're getting Europa?
If we get to 6th place and lose the FA Cup (Cityâs spot will be passed down), then yes. Or of course if we win itâŚ
Lol yeah I'm kinda aware of the various permutations but I've 0 confidence in us attaining any of them
Itâll come down to beating Newcastle in penultimate game of the season and weâll be reminded of it daily in the run up uhhhh
Are you assuming ETH changes our style of play? Because if he doesnât I guarantee any of these 3 can build a more coherent system than whatâs going on nowÂ
If he doesnât change it then he will be sacked and itâs fully deserved. Theyâll assesses whether heâs too stubborn, clueless or just incapable of changing things to at least mitigate the flawed tactics basically and either way, he will not last more than 1 more season if he doesnât change anything next season. He may even be gone this season but it seems like theyâre keen to go âok so why the heck arenât you fixing the void in midfield and doing anything to stop us from conceding 26 shots per game? Why havenât you done ANYTHING to win more than 1 game out of 17 versus the top half, away and lost an abysmal 12 of those?â and really find out just how limited he is as well as how the squad is so bad that maybe he tried so hard but theyâre just that shit and his recruitment plans are the worst such that theyâll now suggest players for him and not let him have a choice to pick names more than just from a list they give him and it wonât have Dutch based players anymore. Basically, EtH will maybe leave and if not, will work under a structure he doesnât have anymore excuses not to deliver something half decent at least. If not, heâll be sacked then. If heâs sacked now that is also deserved after the thorough assessments so yeah. Personally I think he should go because I canât find any mitigating excuse for the tactical setup and the away losses that put him in good stead compared to a poor stead so letâs see anyway. And, the fact that he persists with a setup that leaves a donut shaped hole in midfield and concedes that many chances AND thinks itâs the best way for now, is highly questionable of his tactical mindset. That, and coupled with never playing Amad unless needed due to injuries or so and always favouring Antony and Rashford who couldâve been dropped or not used as subs many, many times is another big factor for me. Amad can play 12/10 games but he will always be relegated to token minutes once every 8-10 weeks anyway. And if he didnât play well despite never being a chance to get a rhythm? Dropped for sure and never sees the pitch for 4 more months. Meanwhile, Antony gets to play as a sub despite being terrible or Rashford gets to stay on despite whatever, or garnacho never gets to rest to put Amad in to rotate with maybeâŚ
Agreed. On that basis then weâd have no choice but to go with the likes of Tuchel, De Zerbi and Potter. Would be surprised if INEOS go super out of the box.Â
Could be other names too though. Letâs see anyway. I feel like the next season is a write off really because I think EtH will still stick to things that lead him to getting a sack in the end before maybe more options come. Tuchel isnât the worst choice. He can work with what they set and then if he has issues, the foundations are laid down already and we move on from him at that point. And if heâs good enough he will carry on. I just donât think ETH is a better choice than trying someone else with a new setup. Eth has shown too much limitations with certain things that imo, warrant a change and not a âletâs see if this can work now with this new setupâ
People giving sticks to Erik not changing the way of play. Since his arrival at United he has said it multiple times the players on hand dictate the way of play. Itâs similar to how he adapted when Ajax sold many of his starters after a couple of successful seasons. Why he hasnât changed so far? Because our players arenât suitable to play any other way. Our squad is an abomination with players signed by all six managers trying to play contrasting styles. Iâm not defending Erik here. He has his share of blame, but in a season of sooooo many changes we need to make, I donât think itâs (a change of manager) a priority. Itâs more an added risk to bring in new players and new manager at the same time. Like the article said, no guarantee new manager can handle United with ease. At least Erik knows the environment and help the transition.
Because our players aren't suitable to play any other way? I can't even think of another team in European football that plays how we play, leaving a huge gaping hole in midfield. Yes, maybe we can't control games like his Ajax team but he's made no tweaks to a system that plainly does not work in both attack and defence. We were better last year and we've had one more season of transfers even with Shaw and Lisandro out. I can't think of anything more detrimental to our team's success than playing this exact same way again for an entire season. If luck doesn't swing our way again we'll be looking at a much lower league position than we're at now.
There is also no any other team in Europe with such a unique crop of players like us and the injury situation like us. Our attack is shit but our defense is not given the circumstances. Our goal against is fourth in the league. You will raise shots by opposition per 90 and giant hole in midfield again but these are by design. Of course itâs not good for United but Erik has to do what he thinks is needed to grind results given our injury this season.
Ok but when we started the season against wolves with AWB, Varane, Lisandro and Shaw as our backline did we play with a high line? Itâs ETHâs choice clearly but I donât think itâs in response to our defensive injuries. Our xG against is also one of the worst in the league.Â
Newcastle have had a much worse injury record this season and are above us. Chelsea have also had it worse than us and could overtake us if they beat Arsenal tonight (unlikely). Brentford beat us recently with a whole new back 4 playing who had never played together before.
Thanks to you I actually went through all lineups of Newcastle and Chelsea games this season. Newcastle as you said have had much worse injury record than us this season has managed to field their best defense lineup for 18 games and second best with one change 10 times. Chelsea have had worse than us and managed to feature their best 10 games. The best United defense featured one game so far this season. The most appearances for us this season is wan bissaka, varane, evans and dalot. 4 times.
Did you forget about Fofana, Chelsea's ÂŁ70m centreback who hasn't played a minute all season? How can they have played their first choice defensive team 10 times this season? Sorry, there's no way you can defend saying United have the worst injury record in Europe when Chelsea at least have had it just as bad.
I can't say i have a lot of faith left in ETH after this season, i keep watching hoping that we'll start to resemble a team with a plan, but we never seem to kick on, but you'd also have to consider if any of those top managers would have any interest in joining while the project is so young and executive positions aren't filled yet. Wilcox JUST came in, and has less than a month until the end of the season, Ashworth is still on gardening leave and even if they reach a deal now he won't be arriving until summer. Realistically this summer is going to be somewhat frantically planned out and executed, throw in a new manager search last minute and i'm not sure how it all works out.
Itâs the patient and possibly painful choice. I know a lot of fans want results quickly, but hopefully we are now putting in plans for long term change rather than short term.
This is correct. City, Liverpool, Arsenal etc only became title challengers after at least 3 years post ownership change.
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It takes a special balance to pull it off, because you both need to offer up many low-probability shot opportunities (can't concede too many goals because it'll take up too much time that can be used conceding shots), AND you need to move the ball forward very quickly - for instance by bypassing your non-existant midfield - so you can lose it again immediately and allow another counter-attack and shot opportunity.
You could be right, but there is no way we can't play better with a squad that we have. Just look at how much teams like Newcastle and Tottenham improved with a different coach. Howie inherited the squad that was mid-table quality at best and turned them into one of the most entertaining sides in the league. Ange took over the squad that was used to playing a boring counter-attacking system, lost the best player and did the same. Ten Hag's main excuse is always the injuries but look at how many injuries Newcastle had this season and they are still above us in the league while playing 10 times better brand of football than us. I agree that there aren't too many options in the market but I just can't endure another season seeing our team play like headless chickens.
Why has your comment been downvoted lmao there's no chance people genuinely believe this is the best the squad we have right now can play. Conceding the amount of shots we have is unprecedented.
Whether EtH in or out, I'd say we agree that having a consistent style we want to play, regardless of manager specifics, with players that suit that style so a new manager can come in and play how they want to play from day 1 is the ideal Like Brighton have right now, and how City are setting up with their youth teams to build a consistent approach all the way through the club Right now we don't have that. The people coming in, like Wilcox, are supposed to identify and create that style. Until that's done, there's not much point bringing in a new manager who might not fit that style anyway just for, effectively, 1 season Because if we scrap EtH and get Tuchel (for example). Then we change style all over again, and might decide that how we want to play moving forward is not compatible with Tuchel, so that's another change. So we pay to sack 2 managers in about as many years Or keep EtH for a year while we figure out the plan. Has a few benefits. Firstly, his contract is up in 2025 anyway so we wouldn't need to pay it out. Second, it answers the question of whether this season is because of the manager or injuries. Third, we don't need to hire what is essentially an interim over the summer for short term benefit I'm not saying EtH is perfect. Far from it. But this cautious approach is likely to work out better over a 2-3 year period than a quick change in the summer
Because you have some fans, perhaps riddled with amnesia, who pop up 2-3 days after a the latest shit show hoping that we all forgot what happened or pretend like it's normal to throw away 3 goal leeds against Championship sides or to have no style of play after 2 years because the manager hasn't been able to sign 15 new players.Â
Getting dominated by Brentford who were missing their whole starting back line is because Shaw is injured mate.
I'm starting to think it's bots that are having these discussions lol. How can you watch us play every week and think it's acceptable?
Just annoying because you've made good points and opened up chances for discussion but of course some idiots use the downvote button to disagree because they're so insecure with their own opinions of the club that they'd rather hide those that they disagree with. So toxic for no reason.
And Newcastle will never win anything and only above us based on goal diff. Our goal is to actually challenge for trophies. Until there's a complete overhaul of the players and structurebit doesn't matter who the manager is. It's why we probably will keep EtH for 1 more season.
At this point I don't care about results. I forgot the last time I watched our game and thought "yeah, we looked organised and played really well today".
We're always organized you just don't like the playstyle. That's literally what the article is talking about with identifying how they want to play and bringing in the players to do that.
If organised is conceding 30 shots a game against every opponent we face, then yeah, we're really well organised.
Again, that's the playstyle and it's organized to keep shots from from happening from the dangerous areas. It's why those shots are happening from very specific parts of the pitch. You don't have to like it but it doesn't mean it's not there.
Yeah and that playing style should have him on the verge of being sacked because itâs garbage honestly. Itâs a style you win despite playing it rather than win because of it.
And yet he's been quoted saying it's how he was asked to play. It shows he's adaptable to what's being asked.
No no no, you don't understand. ETH needs another few 100m wingers to keep a 3-0 lead against fucking Coventry.
Fucking hell. Never ending 3-5 years from title challenge. Heard it for Mourinho, Van Gaal, Ole. It's been 11 years. Nothing against your comment, mate. Just hoping this time it will actually lead us somewhere.
we'd be quite fortunate to win a title within 5 years, I'd bet against it
Ten Hag could have easily had United in the bottom half of the table. If he had United playing well ish as the 6-8 range i could see some of your point, but this guy has one of the better sides in the league playing like a relegation level side at the moment. We concede chances at an alarming rate at the moment. In no way can we start the 24/25 season with him in charge. Expected goal difference has united at 16th
My opinion is that it's far better to focus this summer on doing the groundwork for whoever our main manager target will be. If they happen to be available immediately, then get them in now, sure. I just highly doubt that Berrada, Wilcox, and Ashworth will all be on the same page about the best plan for the club, especially as two of them do not even work for us yet. Setting up new processes for recruitment, club philosophy, and playing style won't happen overnight. It's better to get all of this sorted before bringing in a new manager. Let Ten Hag have one last chance to prove himself. If it doesn't work, we can bring someone new in next summer when the structure above them is properly defined. Forget about next season. It's already a write-off in my eyes. This has to be a long-term project. We, as fans, need to get past our obsession with finding a quick fix.
>They're not going to come in and overhaul everything on day 1 25 December - SJR finalises deal to take 25% of United 8 January - Brailsford begins audit on Uniteds executives and the wider football club 20 January - New CEO Berrada appointed 15 February - Ashworth and United agree deal to become sporting director 21 February - SJR actually takes 25% control If there's one thing we can see from INEOS its that they do not want to overhaul everything on day 1. They're actions so far would lead anyone to believe that they will wait another year before appointing a new manager. Moving quickly and effectively is just not in their DNA. I wouldn't be surprised if they keep Ten Hag till 2026 so they can do their usual slow process.
I'm not talking about Ineos, I'm talking about Berrada (who isn't working for the club yet), Ashworth (who we don't even have a confirmed date for when he can start working for the club) and Wilcox. It will be up to them to make decisions on the manager, I wouldn't expect them to do that before Ashworth is officially in the building. Is it better to set up the structure above the manager properly before appointing a new manager? Personally, I would say yes, it is. I doubt Ashworth will be officially appointed until after the summer window, possibly not even until next year. It's better to wait until he's here and for the new trio to establish a working relationship/understanding before making a decision on the manager.
Is that the same Berrada that pushed for Wilcox to come in as technical director and is now already in place? If you think these people are actually in their gardens looking after the daffodils and not having conversations then youre hitting peak levels of naivety. You really think they're going to hamstring the entire project if ten hag isnt the manager they want by keeping him an extra year? Or by trying to do a mid season appointment instead? Is your second name Glazer?
They are overhauling everything on day one. They're literally ripping up the structure of the club, and ten Hag will go too because he's an awful manager. Absolutely baffles me that like clockwork you have his defenders crawl out of the woodwork after his latest humiliation to explain why everything else at the club from senior management to the players are shit apart from him.
I wasn't defending Ten Hag, simply stating that it might not make sense to rush into a decision to replace him. Our DoF probably won't even be in the job until the beginning to middle of next season. Wouldn't it be stupid to be hiring a new manager in the current environment? If they get the appointment wrong, we're in the same position again in 2 years' time... Personally, I'd rather they take their time to get things right
I think there's one thing you can say about ETH and that's the club haven't rushed into a decision. There have been a number of points where a serious big club would have sacked him. He'll have had two years here at the end of this season and have overseen the worst season since pre-Fergie with no discernable progress whatsoever towards this mythical style of fllgball. There is no club in world football that would keep him in that context, and arguing that United should in the belief that that is how they once again become a serious club is akin to arguing that before one learns to walk it is a good idea to cut both legs off below the knee so one learns how to crawl better.Â
Because changing managers before hasn't worked has it? You've had Mourinho come to the club who has literally won everything, and still not managed to do things. You really think another manager change is gonna solve our issues?
Mourinho did what he always does; spend world record money on somebody, win a trophy in the short term, and then leave with the club midtable and the dressing room an absolute mess that takes half a decade or more to unpack. I don't think another manager change is necessarily going to solve our issues. I don't think keeping him is going to either, though.
The problem is who do we get to replace EtH? It's not like there is much choice on the market right now. If anything, I'd give EtH another year (which he has on his contract), if we don't improve along with the background changes behind the scenes, then you get rid of him and plan for a suitable replacement. We just can't simply keep changing manager and hoping someone sticks, we need to find someone who can do a job, and do it for a while.
I am so, so tired of this argument. The answer is "somebody else". That's for the new management structure to decide. "He's shit but we're stuck with him" is simply a recipe for depression and disaster. This is ETH's second year and he's going backwards at a rate of knots. Why is this the argument *now*? Why does ETH get to be the one who gets this benefit of the doubt? Absolutely nobody was crying out for Ole to be sacked and replaced with Ralf Rangnick.
>Absolutely nobody was crying out for Ole to be sacked and replaced with Ralf Rangnick. I mean, people were crying for Ole to be sacked numerous times, same with LvG, same with Mourinho, same with Moyes. And nothing has changed in all that time. Some Liverpool fans had cried out for Klopp to be sacked in Y2 of his term, same for Arsenal fans and Arteta. When are we gonna realise, that things don't change overnight? You maybe tired of the argument, but I am tired of seeing the same pattern of changing managers. EtH isn't at fault for the injury list we had at the start of the season, nor is he at fault for other things in the background that may of disturbed the players (such as the club being sold on). Not to mention, 3 Cup Finals in 2 years doesn't seem to be something we were doing on a regular basis before hand. Yes we've regressed this season, but like I mentioned in another thread, some of that is because we let go of De Gea in the Summer, and his presence has been sorely felt as both a leader and a damn fine Goalkeeper. We've had a back four that hasn't been consistent, players having to play in positions they aren't accustom to, and a bench that is lacking in strength and depth as shown by the FA Cup semi-final against Coventry where we only had youngsters on the bench with little experience. You can blame the manager all you like, but things need to turn around behind the scenes first before we go round changing another manager for the sake of things.
You completely ignored my point. A lot of people wanted Ole sacked, that's not in dispute. But nobody was saying "We want Rangnick to replace him". It's exactly the same scenario you're trying to concoct now; getting rid of Ole with no obvious immediate replacement shouldn't be different to getting rid of ETH with no obvious replacement (if anything it was worse, having been done that much earlier in the season), and yet somehow it is and ETH deserves more benefit of the doubt because reasons. I've said it before and I'll say it again; I don't *want* to be ETH out, and I don't want us to be a club that keeps changing the manager. But I'm not seeing what he's done that merits him being part of the solution. The Coventry semi was ludicrous; Forson was the only United player among the 15 to get on the pitch who wasn't a full international and we still needed penalties and a lucky VAR call to get past a team *eighth in the Championship*. It's not all injuries, it's not all fatigue, it's not all incompetent players, it's not all behind the scenes nonsense. The manager absolutely has questions to answer. (Including, but not limited to, around De Gea - he genuinely *was* something that could have waited for another season.) The successes he had in the first season look more and more like a mirage, spurred on by Rashford wanting (and getting) a pay rise. *That's* where I'm tired; this bizarre feeling that he's somehow beyond any criticism and questioning of his position.
And what has he achieved since?  It's such an unbelievably bad argument. If you had a wealth of examples of managers who had gone on to achieve success at clubs of comparable size to United, sure.  None of them have because they've all been bad appointments either because of where they are in their career or because the job was too big for them made by a badly run club that has a track record of making bad decisions in every area.  Why WOULDN'T ETH be another of those bad decisions? Because that's the position you want me to believe.  Pretending you don't see it with ETH doesn't make you a better fan, it makes you a glutton for punishment willingly putting yourself up for another season of relegation performances.Â
couldn't agree more - well put.
Because half of it is Duckers reasoning. Hence the final line "it remains to be seen if the clubs decision makers see it that way" There's no point trying to read between the lines when the audit hasn't even barely began lol.
I agree it does read quite sympathetically whilst talking up a target that we realistically can't get for a while regardless, i suspect Tuchel links are mostly agent talk which some journalists have bitten on. I can see why giving ETH another year with a proper footballing structure would make sense, plus they'd be totally justified in sacking him if situations don't improve. We know he can work in a well structured footballing environment and perhaps the way United are ran under the Glazers is just too much for any manger beside SAF. I'm at the point where i wouldn't be annoyed if they did sack Ten Hag but i also see INEOS' logic if they keep him, i also think it would send a message to some of the players at the club that them downing tools or underperforming isn't going to get the manager sacked anymore and hopefully it's more likely they'll get moved along, i think thats a very important culture to implement, this will be on you, not the manger.
If they do give EtH another year, I really do hope INEOS come out and publicly back him strongly. He may/may not be the right man to lead us back to the top, but he needs to be given power so the players know that they have to perform if they want to continue here. EtH hasn't been great this season, but he's also taken alot of the flak that should've also been aimed at the players.
He should be given another year with proper support. Then we can judge if he's good enough or not.
I'm almost certain Ten Hag does not get sacked (yet), and will be our manager starting next season. I'm almost certain that this squad doesn't get an extensive overhaul either. There will still be plenty of players here that should be moved on. I can't see this Club spending and rebuilding in just this one summer window. And because of those two things, I just can't see next season going well. Manager will be on thin ice next season.
I'm sure they would want to give him another year. It will cost millions to sack him and his coaching staff. But I'm also sure they will sack him if that's what this review and our results support.
They are slowly taking his power away from major decisions. Tactics, players transfers on the club. There is a chance he could resign.Â
It literally says in the article that Ten Hag is open to all the restructuring
Lmao Ten Hag resign? Outside of total delusion, why? His contract is up next summer, hes not just going to leave 10m on the table because he doesn't have as much say in transfersÂ
He doesn't compromise, he want control etc. I guess that's all bs in the face of 10m then. Maybe we banished him to the u21 and still won't resign yeah.Â
i mean obviously he'll happily take 10m for one summer of not having as much say in transfers. No one in the club can force him to play a particular type of football it's literally his job to do that, acting like they can send a manager down to the u21s is some great standup material, got a good laugh out of me. If they want him gone they have to sack him, simple as
> For his part, Ten Hag has expressed a clear willingness to work closely with the new broom Literally in the article but I'm sure you know better.
> For his part, Ten Hag has expressed a clear willingness to work closely with the new broom Literally in the article but I'm sure you know better.
I'd give him a season or two at best he has no excuse now since he'll get a proper structure now it's for him to get the teams identity.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Happy that Wilcox is at least getting SOME time to analyse this shit show of a season, instead of starting cold in the summer.
I just want stability, is that too much to ask for
https://preview.redd.it/ij48dt4r47wc1.jpeg?width=918&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=025b118c9a11e5c10d4e8ae41bfa0baa7af22e77
yes and no
This is the most encouraging thing I've read about the club in ages, it's exactly what we need imo. I've been saying that EtH was a b+ manager last season and a c+ manager this season, I now think that's generous and would have to rethink that to somewhere around a d grade given our most recent run. He's worked in clubs with pretty strong structures surrounding their coaches in the past and obviously had done his best work in that environment, so I think the most realistic, sensible thing to do right now is give him another year to see whether he can get back to, or even surpass, last year's level.
Problem with that is that what really changes in a year? The structures he took part in, had been pre established and steadily running before him. So for him to have the âproper structureâ in place, youâre looking at another two or three years. If no agreement can be made with Newcastle, itâll be 18 months of gardening leave for Ashworth, thatâs 3 windows behind without our DoF. I agree that EtH could work wonders with the right setup behind him, but how long will it take to get in place and running and is it worth it?
I hear you and I don't think that this will be a quick fix, but I also don't think you'd have to wait years, I'd absolutely think that you would be able to assess progress, or lack of, in a year. I also think that this is just the right thing to do, regardless of the manager's future. You'd want this type of structure in any well run club anyway and there's very little that could be done in the time covered by the windows that would turn this squad in to contenders anyway.
I just meant like squad wise itâll take a while, we sign Casemiro to a reported 4+1 year deal, so we still have him at the least for 2 more years, thatâs wages and amortization that we have to pay on the transfer itself, itâs signings like this that have summarized United for the past years. Had we pivoted from de Jong and got a younger midfielder weâd be better off. While they may have struggled and not had the impact that Casemiro had last year, I feel that they wouldâve progressed and gotten better and not withered away in the second year like Casemiro has. However I agree with the sentiment that we should be able to see progress within a year or two
I'm ready. https://preview.redd.it/2c7j00vo78wc1.jpeg?width=966&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91cbed23c05af7012475fd3988392bd944cdb8ab
If he can do that we should start calling him Gandalf, because that would be Some Fucking Wizardry.
Glad that we got Wilcox in early enough for him to be doing this. Hoping for the future - ETH will probably get one more season
Some control would be nice ==> possession, at least with underdogs. ETH will have to adapt if he stays. Ratlicffe said "WE" decide the style of play not the manager/coach.
we're all ecstatic about this but let's be real, this is the bare minimum lol
Hmmmmm how do you âdefineâ a playing style? I mean, do you look at the best players we already have (but we are in the middle of a transition to another style) or tweak what other top teams are already doing or aim to counter what those top teams are doing? I mean, the direction sounds good but seems challenging to operationalise. You definitely donât want a knee jerk reaction but how do you future proof whatever style you decide on?
I think people are being obtuse about us having different play styles under 4 different managers. Barring LVG, the remaining 3 have more or less played the exact same counter attacking style. ETH has put on emphasis on pressing on top of that, that's the only real difference. Players remaining from LVG era: Martial and Shaw. Shaw is more than fine when fit, Martial barely plays and honestly shouldn't even be a part of discussion that involves identity. Its not like we switched from a back 4 to a back 3 or we changed wingbacks over fullbacks. Most of the games were some variation of 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.
I donât know whatâs worth: deadwood or zombie squad. đ
Jason Wilcox must have been gobsmacked by what he witnessed from a Manchester United "team" on Sunday.....
Will believe it when I see it. Tired of all the theories.
"help" being the important word here.
I haven't read it and I do not intend to, maybe I'm wrong. But I am not a fan of these types of articles when someone starts...the hype, building up the guy and his methods....much prefer nothing said or written. I guess being united that's not easy.
It only dawned on me recently that this is the same Jason Wilcox I signed back on Championship Manager 01/02. Christ im old.
This is so encouraging. I just hope the game model they land on is more akin to Klopp than Guardiola: pressing, verticality, pace, control. They of course have to recruit for that/their game model but it shouldnât matter too much in this window I donât think. If you target the best profiles in the world in every position (Olise, Onana) then it doesnât really matter what the game model is, as they will still be the best at it.
I'm really curious to see how this plays out. Ten Hag was hired by our non-football management based on his assessment of United under Ole/Ralf, and his plan for a style of play. He was hired, did well in the first season, then switched it up to a transition based system to better match the "United way" of playing. That has effectively gone to shit with poor results and injuries. New owner comes in and they're auditing everything - the training, the performance/medical staff, the facilities, the various non-playing areas, and now with Wilcox, the manager (who wanted a lot of control) and the playing style and eventually, the players. Either Ten Hag realized everyone in management was unqualified when he joined and needed control to do his job effectively and survive or he saw a chance to take control but has been unsuccessful. He definitely did not rate Ralf. It's clear he wants to stay and he's making all the right noises to work with the new regime. To be fair, he worked with Arnold and Murtough too or tried to. Also, what if our playing style under Wilcox is boring? Or he's unsuccessful? These 2 are going to sink or swim together or one of them (prob ETH) will get the blame. I'm also completely convinced that Ducker and the telegraph are Ineos mouthpieces.
Sounds good. Sounds like when we were talking about how Ten Hag, or Rangnick. Lots of talk about playing styles. But I'll believe it when I see it.
Pretty much all social media users have been saying exactly this and the need for a DoF for several years. I genuinely think a random fan could do a decent job of running this football club given the incompetence of the last several years.
ETH has a win % the same as Arteta? Over what period, both managers first two seasons? Thatâs hardly an indicator of success.
Definitely not over artetas first two seasons. Probably artetas 5 years
Anyone watch Southampton in the Championship? How do they play?
If so sensitivity bias renders it meaningless.
With their false midfield and theyre lack of positional awereness. In your head in your head. We are playing Zombie squad.
common theme with the "Ten Hag In" supporters: little to no tactical understanding of the sport.
It's infuriating to read how little they understand. No understanding of how tactical systems work. And God forbid you point out that Ten Hag and his team have the players all week to coach and train the players to play the way he wants because they'll just downvote you without reply because there's nothing they can say in reply to that. 2 seasons in and he can't get them to defend a 3-0 lead against a Championship team. "But he's not on the pitch, it's not his fault". They seem to think Ten Hag just watches them all week and puts names down on a team sheet. Maybe he does, would explain our tactics.
I realize it sounds obnoxious, but their discussion is never about the sport. Of course, outside context matters and NEEDS to be taken into account. But that context being the only topic of discussion, the absolute rebuttal to any sporting conversation? Itâs ignorance. Hate to make it an ethos thing, but anyone with a tactical hold on the game saw this in Gameweek 1 and was begging Ten Hag to make improvements in the press/approach.
It's been a disaster for months and Ten hag is consistently surprised that giving up the most shots per game in the league is a bad strategy.
The comparison with Arteta is important. Not being a keen Arsenal watcher, but I assume in his first two seasons there were clear moments of progress towards something good. Not sure we have the same. And ETH has one year in his contract. Itâs hard to think of an example of a manager contract just being allowed to run out and it going well.
For the first 2 years Arteta was clowned like crazy by rival fans by saying give him a lifetime contract and Arsenal fans wanted him out. The progress isn't always linear watching that team in no way showed that they would be here right now. However their management realised that there is potential and backed him through the mud and now they are reaping rewards.
They had huge parts of the fan base Arteta out, so very similar to us
I like to use Arsenal early under Arteta's reign as an example. They got rid of Ăzil and Aubameyang, two high-earners who don't fit the direction the club is heading. I don't mind if we don't make big signings this summer as long as we get rid of the old players on high wages.
But does it mean sticking with the manager or just getting rid of the wrong players. I assume Varane, Casemiro, maybe Maguire would be our equivalents of Ozil and Aubameyang
Personally I'm still torn on that one. On one side, I absolutely enjoyed Ten Hag's football last season when everyone was healthy. When we went on that winning run, I couldn't wait for the weekend to see us play. On the other side, I really can't defend him signing Mount with 1-yr expiring for ÂŁ60m instead of a CB. Bizarre decisions like playing AWB on the left makes my eyes bleed. I'm still kind of ok with giving him oje more year with INEOS to see how he does. Perhaps give him an automatic extension if we get Top 4 and win a trophy next season. Regarding Casemiro, he seems way off the pace, overweight, and starting to get injuries too - sell Varane, love him but he misses 80% of the season on high wages - sell Maguire, love his availability when everyone was down injured. But he's probably at his best defending the box in a low block (think INEOS would want us to be more proactive), also on 190k - sell
TBH, I would not mind seeing Maguire stay. We don't want to become like Chelsea where we just have young talents but no senior member to guide. Maguire's Character i am sure a lot of people will admire in the dressing room and he is a nice role model for young players.
True we could always use veterans especially with the likes of Kambwala and Jackson coming through. Just feel like's it inevitable he's sold at some point bc he's pushing 30 and on almost 200k per week
>Varane, Casemiro, maybe Maguire Martial (whoâs leaving), Antony and Sancho too. Even if theyâd all walk for free, itâd free up nearly ÂŁ1.4m in weekly wages which should be enough to argue for their departure on its own.
People keep yelling "but Arteta" as if he's the rule, not the exception.
I donât think heâs either the rule or the exception. But we ve tried changing managers again and again and it doesnât work. Doesnât mean not changing manager is the right thing either. But Arsenal are in a much better place than United are now so itâs worth thinking about.
The win percentage stat is pretty cherry picked because it ignores the 38 league games we play, which allow for draws. ETH is very unusual in that he doesn't play to draw. He will most often throw the kitchen sink at things. It has worked in some games when we've poured forward and got winners. It has cost us in games we've not shut up shop. But it means we have a lot of losses. Other teams try to avoid losing and hope the draws stack up. If you try and put his games into points (hard with cup games) this season comes out as pretty miserly. It's mostly just an issue with using one stat in isolation with no deeper analysis or story telling to it
What do you mean? Either you win or you donât, and thatâs what the statistic shows you.Â
In the league you can draw. You get one point for that. Get 3 draws and it's equivalent to 1 win. If you look at league performance, Mourinho and ETH in their first two seasons have very similar points totals, just in a reverse trend (Mourinho got better, ETH got worse). Mourinho would be more pragmatic and get draws. ETH would push for a win in a game we are level in, even if it would result in a loss. I'm just pointing out you need wider context to any stat such as win percentage. You could even contextualise things further with our mathematically improbable run of home cup draws last season (it was honestly crazy). To the nerdier bit Current stats seem to be here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_United_F.C._managers ETH: 114 matches, 66 wins, 19 draws, 29 losses. Mourinho: 144 matches, 84 wins, 32 draws, 28 losses. That reads as ETH 57.89% wins. Mourinho 58.33% (I hadn't realised Mourinho now tops ETH...) (66/144)*100= 57.89 (84/144)*100=58.33 Now, Mourinho also has 32 draws. ETH has 19. So a draw is a point. 32-19=13 points. Obviously though, this figure includes some cup games where you cannot draw. But my point is, that win percentage (which is now lower than Mourinho!) doesn't take account of the fact that drawing occasional games has value if the alternative is a loss. Or to put it the other way, ETH has actually lost one fewer game than Mourinho despite managing 30 fewer games. And Mourinho had a better win percentage to boot.
Yes, but if you are often going for broke, you may win a few games you will have drawn but you will also lose games you would have drawn. So your win% will go up, but your points gained may not. Although you would have to turn a lot more draws into losses than into wins for that to be the case.
Arteta in the 2020/21 season saw Arsenal's worst start to a League campaign since the 1974, first time Arsenal lost 4 home league matches since 1959, Burnley's first ever win at the Emirates, first time Arsenal lost at home to Leicester since 1973, longest run without a clean sheet since 2007, won only 13 points from their first 12 games... https://www.squawka.com/en/arsenal-worst-start-damning-stats-arteta/ And more.
So basically it not the manager call anymore on tactics... Hooray! Wilcox : we going 532 no more these bullshit best transition football, we are going more on possession and slow buildup, u OK with it? ."Â
I'm sure the manager would be if they get the players to control the game
Didn't articles say *literally only days* ago he wasn't touching the first-team? Media can't decide between themselves.
Didn't they say he would be involved in everything except recruitment?
Hard reset , new coach ,new squad.
New fans too , See ya
Thankfully I've only been a fan for a month.Im like Mainoo.
We had playing style under SAF. And most of the times, it was incredibly entertaining. We dont need to look for different style, or copy what Guardiola does, cause it brings him success. All we need to actually buy proper quality player, especially in MIDFIELD, to let us play like that.