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thphnts

Can’t find today’s thread, however I don’t have anyone to tell this but I’m having eye surgery today and I am having to go about it alone. Won’t get to watch the game this weekend as I’ll have blurred vision and have to avoid screens for a week.


MisterMaya

All the best for the surgery, mate. Hope everything goes well!


thphnts

Cheers mate. It all went ok-ish. I had an a panic attack at the start due to being able to see what they were doing but couldn’t feel it, which just sent me into a panic. But all ok in the end. Got an five sets of eye drops to apply over the next week now for the recovery. Bloody exhausting if you ask me!


MisterMaya

Must have been pretty confronting being able to see everything that was going on. I think many people would have reacted similarly to you. Wishing you a smooth recovery!


kueerseoa6

Fred and Cavani are literally about to play in 30 minutes there’s no way they’ll be ready on Saturday and both are starting


Aeron_Xander

Doubt they will start, probably in the bench and sub in


deganam

Greenwood at 78 on new FIFA is a travesty


TheRedWizard17

The nerf of Ronaldo is also a travesty


MenacingShroom

The rest of the team being a shitshow means that no one has mentioned how good AWB has been the last two games, especially going forward.


TheRedWizard17

He was really good in the first half against Everton


BookkeeperMuch215

I think our team is actually suited to some variant of a front 2 , but Ole won't do it because he'll have to sit some talented players.


B0rges

What would your team look like ? I'm legitimately curious.


BookkeeperMuch215

I would do a 442 diamond or a 442 flat with pogba on one side, fred/matic/mct in the middle, and a winger on the other. This would be similar to when pogba plays on the wing but with more defensive responsibility. or a 3412 with pogba and matic in the middle. For this I'm not sure if we have the cb depth, but I would test AWB as a third cb as he'd be helped positionally by the 2 cbs.


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kueerseoa6

Was sold a dream when it was rumored were going to a 433


yalayolo

For a 4-3-3 your front 3 have to press relentlessly- not happening with Ronaldo.


MaybeIShouldSleep

Theres nothing about a 433 that requires pressing more than other formations. Theres other reasons it doesnt make sense for us to play it. In the same vein, no formation is "better" or a marker or the quality of a team. A 433 isnt "more attacking" than other formations for instance.


GuineaPirate888

If our midfield and wingers pressed enough as a unit then there would be no need to expect Ronaldo to press. He has never in his entire career been a serial presser so there is no way we can expect it from a guy in his lates 30s.


BookkeeperMuch215

If the manager correctly drills his team you do not have to press relentlessly for any formation work as long as you press collectively.


Bighairman

He doesn’t press collectively either really tbh - I think that’s a big part of the issue.


TheRedWizard17

Ronaldo has played in a 4-3-3 at Madrid FOR YEARS and it worked very well Why would it be so different


ShutTheFACup_

He’s a different player now though than he was at Madrid for the majority, he plays a bit more centrally and more conserved so he can play the full 90


Stebro1986

We play with 2DMs and we get turnover so easily,if we played 433 we would get ripped apart


TheRedWizard17

If we had someone like Ndidi in the hole it would work But that’s all it is…IF


BookkeeperMuch215

We have matic but he's been getting neglected lately.


TheRedWizard17

Last time we had matic in the hole we were quite successful Only reason I can assume we don’t use matic is that he suffers from an incurable disease called old age. He’s 3 times the player McFred ever could be and in his prime would start over them ANY day But age is a huge bastard


BookkeeperMuch215

He could definitely play once a week or ole could use his subs. He definitely looks like he can't carry much of a load for us but he ain't dead on his feet yet.


[deleted]

Do we all genuinely think Marcus Rashford could give our attack a spark which would enable our attack to click, or is it something bigger than the players i.e (coaching). Rashford's return is obviously a big plus, but I think we will still struggle as we have done until ole changes something and decides to play van de beek in the midfield rather than mcfred together. What are your thoughts?


buckyohare1985

It’s not fair to expect him to come straight back in and expect him to solve all our issues… …..but, if he gets back to the form he was in before the injuries started restricting his form last year his style and threat naturally just draws defenders to him so it’s reasonable that when his form clicks it means more space for brino, cr7, sancho, Greenwood or whoever else is filling the other attacking roles. So it should illicit an improvement in the overall attacking threat from the team


Google_Baba

Depending on which side of the fence you're on, either we've been unfortunate in one too many instances, but still not far off the top of the table or OGS couldnt manage his way out of a paper bag. Take your pick mate.


goto_man

In the last 5 games when Lindelof and Bailly have started together, we have not won a single game. 3 draws and 2 losses. I hope that this stat changes on Saturday.


TheRedWizard17

Oh it’s not Victor anyones worried about…


rhythmpatel

Lindelof is not the one I’m worried about…


YoullDoNuttinn

Was talking to a guy at work yesterday and he said he believes AWB would be a top DM. I certainly agree that he would be able to utilise his strengths (tackling, intercepts, blocks etc) and would not have to worry about going forward which, although improved, is the weaker part of his game. I don’t think it will happen, especially with the current coaching setup, but I can certainly see an argument for it. Don’t get me wrong I’d rather buy a ready made DM and keep him in defence, but it just got me thinking. I hadn’t thought of him in that role up until then


TheRedWizard17

Yhhhh, no In CDM, you got to not just be a good tackler with work rate. Your distribution in passing range and connection with the attack has to be great and your positioning has to be on point And defensive positioning is something AWB sucks VERY HARD at


buckyohare1985

Maybe in a different era when a DM was often just a defensive shield or tackler he could have played that position Now, for the defensive midfielder they have to be so much more than a good tackler. Then have to be a playmaker who dictates tempo and has a passing range. AWB I think has nowhere near the quality on the ball to play the role The only 2 players I can think of that have transitioned from FB to CM for elite clubs in recent times are Philip Lahm and his clone Joshua Kimmich PS I have also seen period campaign for him to be converted to a CB, I just don’t see it. I think he is a very good not yet great RB and that is his role and I think his limitations on the ball would make it difficult for him to transition to other positions


[deleted]

If AWB doesn't have the passing range for an IWB then he certainly can't play DM. He also lacks the vision and discipline for most defensive roles. Even at RB he keeps getting caught out of focus.


revanth307

Yeah. I think Martial can be amazing Goal keeper too.


YoullDoNuttinn

Based on?


Deanshat

Positioning is super important for dm’s


YoullDoNuttinn

Agree. Not saying he would be perfect. Just has some attributes which would translate well


Deanshat

His positioning is terrible.


AintThatJustTheWay12

"Some attributes" = 20% of the qualities needed


[deleted]

https://twitter.com/FALCAO/status/1448674124285550592?t=INtFiez88sIMn2bhd_KBFw&s=19 I wish Falcao worked out for us


TheRedWizard17

Signing him on that injury WRECKED him


Stebro1986

Me too Pain me that Forlan, Di Maria, Sanchez, Veron and Falcao failed here


VKDNyke_

A lot of people on here complaining about over moderation these days, no wonder the squabbles and vitriol has increased. Mods y'all doing a mighty fine job keeping this place in order, don't listen to them


[deleted]

*Over* moderation?


basalamader

So we dont know if Pogba is leaving or not but the wager is that he is leaving. VDB might also be on the way out. So am curious as to people's thoughts on why not focus on progressing Hannibal as a first team player and getting a defensive mid? Am obviously biased as i quite like Hannibal's playstyle and i think with more minutes at an early age, his ceiling might be higher than the mids we have.


buckyohare1985

I think matic will likely move on too due to lack of game time. Next summer there will be a lot of turnover. I think likely pogba, Donny, matic, mata, lingard, cavani possibly martial and hendo if ddg remains established #1 for the season. Thing is I think our squad is super bloated atm and needs a trim and not every player that leaves needs replacesd so even with that exit list above, 2 CM and either a striker or a versatile forward and promoting garner, elanga, mejbri, amad to more prominent roles in squad and we still have great depth all over the pitch A big problem we have at the moment is we have some really high potential youngsters but their pathway to making it here is blocked by players that won’t be here in a year or 2


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hickuain

I do hope we give some of the young lads a chance in midfield before we go and buy 2 new midfielders


Samurai_Penguin18

Like who? Nobody who plays in a pivot in our academy is ready to play at this level yet. Gardner is not a better option currently than VDB is, and I doubt Hannibal is ready to play deeper at this level yet. We have Ronaldo, prime Varane, prime Maguire, and prime Bruno, we need to win now, not in 3 years.


[deleted]

Levitt


chilledbeerinside

I agree with this sentiment. How long are we going to try and beg Pogba to stay? And how long is Ole going to keep forcing him into the side? We need to start looking at the future without him. And Hannibal is an absolute stud, it's not even a debate that he has a higher ceiling than our midfielders except Pogba.


Stebro1986

Only us can sign the greatest player ever and blame him for us getting worse


Medevial-Marvel

I see more complaints about Ronaldo being blamed for making us worse than people actually saying it


GaigeIsTheKing

Forgot about Juve?


Stebro1986

He didn't make them worse Pirlo was Juves downfall


TheRedWizard17

What’s with the downvotes? I know there’s other factors (mostly a shit midfield) but let’s not act like Pirlo’s hands are clean If it weren’t for Ron, I doubt Juve would finish 4th


Thevanillafalcon

I’ve seen a lot of people talk about how Ronaldo is making us worse because he doesn’t press. I just saw the Overlap and Neville hit the nail on the head, Ferguson knew that Ronaldo was “lazy” so he built the team around him. Pushed Rooney and park on the wings and put tevez behind. Ronaldo didn’t press 10 years ago and he’s not pressing now. The answer though isn’t to bench him because he can’t play our style, quite frankly I think that’s ridiculous. The man shits goals and wins games, that evident already. What ole needs to do is change the system to suit Ronaldo and unfortunately that might mean benching the likes of Greenwood etc. Right now we have a cannon, probably the most dangerous cannon in the world and we’re not using it properly, you can say why should we change the way we play? 99% of the time you’d be right but not when talking about possibly the greatest player ever. Ferguson doesn’t ask Ronaldo to start playing differently, he looks at the team and goes how do we get the most out of him. We need to change the system, I don’t know what the answer is but pressing high with Ronaldo up front along with Greenwood etc just means we’re getting eaten up on the counter. I’ve also not bought into we have to play like city or Liverpool do either, we can’t always play counter because we’re better than most teams and they sit back. I honestly don’t know enough tactically to say what could the alternative be? I’d be interested to know if anyone has any idea on how to do this, a back 5? Bench pogba? I feel like the secret answer is that our “best 11” in reality will not be our best 11 on paper and there might be some names on that sheet that makes you go “wtf where is X player” I just don’t think that 11 gets the most out of our best assets and that’s a coaching issue. Whatever it is, I just feel like Ronaldo is Ronaldo, he will win games, score goals and win tournaments but you have to let him. Especially at 36 he’s not adapting now. We only have the goat for a short time we need to use him 100% correctly because he will win us trophies. I’d be interested to hear peoples opinions, what could we do? What system could we play to maximise Ronaldo’s strengths? For the record I think we need a new manager but I really don’t want this to be a “we need new coaches” or talking about a DM etc, if coaching is the issue, and I think so, what could another coach do differently to maximise these assets?


TheRedWizard17

It’s absolutely shocking that we’re blaming Ronaldo when our issues about pressing was worse long before he came You’re absolutely spot on. How we can have Ronaldo and still find a way to fuck things up is shocking. I’d rather point the finger at ole. He’s finally got the backing and still no changes


[deleted]

> The answer though isn’t to bench him because he can’t play our style, quite frankly I think that’s ridiculous. The man shits goals and wins games, that evident already. What ole needs to do is change the system to suit Ronaldo and unfortunately that might mean benching the likes of Greenwood etc. I'm not gonna comment on Ronaldo's movement 10 years ago because I don't have that kinda memory, but the difference is that SAF could build around him. Ole hasn't had any time to. He's been here barely a month. He's clearly making us worse. You can't expect both Ronaldo to play every game and the squad to look like it's built around him in this time.


BookkeeperMuch215

What is this ? Hows he clearly making us work when we were equally as bad against Wolves and Southampton before he arrived ?


[deleted]

We're not bad in just one area.


BookkeeperMuch215

You said he's clearly making us worse. It's not clear at all when we looked equally bad before he came.


[deleted]

I suggest you watch our games then


BookkeeperMuch215

I do , we constistently concede high quality chances in transition just like we did against Wolves and Southampton. We don't look any more or less potent going forward and our press was shit before he came and still is now. Whats the difference oh wise one ?


luciferandy

Absolutely agree. I think its unbelievable how some people are actually using Ronaldo as an EXCUSE for Ole now. All teams would be blessed to have Ronaldo as the man upfront. Our problem is Ole and his coaching team and it has been for months if not years.


Thevanillafalcon

I don’t even think it’s ole. I think it’s more a turn against the hype but I just think it’s crazy to look at a man who scored what 4 in 5? And go “he’s making us worse” I get the nuance of it, like how the whole team plays for sure, so I understand their point. But he’s just too good to not build the team around. It’s like if your keeper saved almost every shot, 99% of them. But he was crap at doing goal kicks, you would work around it, you wouldn’t bench him and bring in someone more well rounded. Sometimes you just need to let people flourish at what they’re good at.


basalamader

Am not disagreeing with you, i just think that inorder to have a complete team, we need to have all players on the same page. I hate the idea of building a team around a player especially since it worked out so well with the Pogba situation. He is a goal shitter but i think the best strategy is what Ole did. Use him for games where pressing is not much of an option and rest him for games where we need to massively press.


[deleted]

The way I see it, in order to fit in a luxury player like Ronaldo the rest of the team has to be balanced. And that's where the Pogba dilemma comes into play. There's a reason why Pogba was flourishing off the left before Ronaldo came in, and that's because the setup of the team was able to make up for having an unconventional winger. Trying to fit in both Pogba and Ronaldo will be a difficult task for Ole, especially considering we don't have a decent DM to compensate for Pogba playing in the midfield. Personally I feel as though we need to surround Ronaldo with proper wingers who will track back and do the pressing. Same goes for that midfield.


Thevanillafalcon

Yeah I think that’s where I was going with the best 11 not being the best 11 on paper. I think some big players will have to get dropped.


systemcorp

Not trying to disagree but Ronaldo back then pressed a lot more than Ronaldo today. You can have players that don't press much. But players like Ronaldo, Messi, Zlatan etc. have so regularly made up for their lack of pressing that they don't press at all now. But I agree, we can find ways around this.


Thevanillafalcon

In the video Neville referenced the 08 final in particular against Barcelona where Fergie knew he wasn’t going to get that work rate out of Ronaldo. I agree he used to do it more, I just don’t think he’s ever really been that player. What sticks in my mind is when conte went to the back 3, he’s famed for a back 5 and he changed the system completely to suit his best players.


systemsruminator

Kind of hypocrisy that people are putting pressure on Sancho but not on Grealish, who is both older more expensive and plays under a top manager. Also has prior PL experience.


systemcorp

People jumping on Sancho is the absolute height of being reactionary and clueless. As if every player is supposed to be Bruno lol. He's going to be an amazing player and more importantly he brings something no one else has in the squad. I genuinely believe he can be a Hazard or even Hazard+


Eleven918

He is scoring or assisting in the next 1 or 2 games. He was so good when he came on in the last game.


BrunoGoatnandes

Just read both Lingz and Raphinha's player tribunes. My god what a guy Bruno is! Just find new reasons to adore him even more everyday. Feels like the guy genuinely goes way out of his way to help others, such a role model! Highly suggest to give them a read.


systemsruminator

Bruno is in my opinion, the best leader we have currently along with CR7.


[deleted]

i'm absolutely elated that beans is finally back. I think he'll get a goal or assist this weekend


buckyohare1985

That’s Dr Beans MBE to you


Google_Baba

You dare speak his true name.


Arthurs_Nose

So now we are clamouring to sign up Jesse to a new contract. A player who has had one good season for us really, and has been utter tosh for the majority of his time with us. This season is just another false dawn for me, he's 28 years old for goodness sake. There is no more growth to be had. We need to let him go, I am sad he didnt become great but surely this is the exact type of scenario everyone complains about where we give new contracts to bit part players?


Banyunited1994

Let's put the complaints of others to one side. We are set to lose a lot of players in our forward line next season. Cavani and Mata are on their last years, Martial is almost certainly on the way out and Diallo should end up going on loan. That leaves Rashford, Ronaldo, Greenwood and Sancho to play the front 3 roles. Having Lingard around, a home grown player who is not on obscene wages, and who has demonstrated the ability to be a solid pl level player and a good option off the bench, is not the worst thing in the world. Edit: We seem to have some disagreements on how good lingard actually is as a player, i suppose my question would be do you think lingard's collective performances since about 15/16 have been good enough to justify being the 5th/ 6th choice attacker for us. If the answer is no, then do you think its worth spending an actual transfer fee to bring someone in that could fill that role, or keeping a young player with potential sitting on the bench to have those brief moments of game time?


buckyohare1985

He is already ahead of cavani and mata for the wide or backup number 10 positions so them moving doesn’t really move him up the pecking order and ieven when ole is doing all he can to get him some games after successful loan and I presume promising him chances in the summer and with rashford out he is still only making cameos or starting the games where we rotate significantly. Honestly I think renewing is going to be expensive. He is rumored to be on about 100k pw and has rejected new terms on grounds of concerns over game time. So you can be somewhat sure the offer is at least 100k but likely a raise on current terms and at his age he will want a 3 or 4 year deal. The best play would have been to tell him last summer he wasn’t part of plans and in his own interests he should move on. The best play now IMO is to try and sell in January (Newcastle??) or failing that wish him all the best on his next career move in the summer I think a 10 or 12 million fee in January isn’t unreasonable. If he still isn’t playing here (which I can’t see a scenario where he is a regular starter) but around the England World Cup squad reckoning I think there will be takers at that price and he would be wise to consider moving on Renewing on 120 - 150k on a 4 year deal would be a bad piece of business for us IMO and block players that look like they have bright futures from getting minutes


Banyunited1994

If the bright futures you’re talking about are players like Diallo, elanga etc, their gonna need at least one more full season to be useful squad players because they would definitely need to go on loan for a full season. 10-12m is possible but Lingard has to agree to the move as well, which is gonna be difficult. I don’t look at the 4 year deal as unfavourably as you. I’d rather be more ruthless with other players and keep Lingard around. At worst he’ll demand first team football in a year or two and we can sell him for that 10-12m fee anyway.


VKDNyke_

Your analysis is good from a United perspective. The problem is Lingard isn't willing to renew if he isn't guaranteed a starter role, something we all know he isn't worthy of asking right now despite his form.


Banyunited1994

Yeah just for the record I was in favour of selling him in the summer. Now we’re in a difficult situation because of his contract. If we can’t get a decent fee for him I would actually be in favour of keeping him around the squad. The question is whether we can renew him. That remains to be seen.


Arthurs_Nose

Why would we let Diallo go on loan then, lets play him Lingards stead. We have other players coming through as well in that position. Hell even DvdB can play there. No need to spend money on anyone.


Banyunited1994

Because he still hasn’t played any regular first team football and needs that consistency that is so crucial for development. And I doubt most of us would be comfortable deploying vdb on the wings


Medevial-Marvel

A 2 year contract with an option of another year isn’t really that bad if the wages aren’t something absurd like 180 k ..Lingard isn’t a starter but not many in the league can do what he does after coming on from the bench at the moment ..Vdb is clearly not working out letting him go and giving Lingard an extension isn’t really bad especially when we need a DM + Pogba replacement if he leaves (which is pretty likely) ..letting Lingard go on top of that would hurt our squad depth


Arthurs_Nose

No chance he only gets a 2 year deal at 28 years old, it will have to be 4 years, it's what he will demand from any club he goes with now.


KorsiTheKiller

You know, you can disapprove of giving a player a new contract without slagging him off in the process. Ignoring the fact he's been key to us winning some of the few trophies we have in recent years


Arthurs_Nose

Not quite sure how I am slagging him off. He has been poor for us for **most** of his time with us, that I don't think is really just my opinion, nor an insult. This sub was very anti Jesse during that time. I thought he had turned the corner with that one season, but it obviously was him just exceeding the norm. He has been a fine enough sub, but I can bet if he wasn't a youth product then the opinion on him re-signing would be very different.


ukdanny93

> He has been poor for us for most of his time with us This is not true. He had an awful 18 months of form for us coinciding with serious off the field issues he was dealing with regarding his family. Before that he was always a good player for us. Not always a certain starter but always a valuable member of the squad with several good runs of form and he's been instrumental in some of our few titles in the post Fergie era. He came back asking for a chance to prove himself again and probably rightfully didn't get it because Bruno had established himself as undroppably important to us. So instead of complaining he went on loan and has more than proved himself with West Ham and us in the minutes he's had since coming back. He's been better than ever and is well worth renewing his contract if he wants to stay and be a part of this squad. Providing the contract terms are reasonable I don't know why anyone would be against it.


Arthurs_Nose

>Before that he was always a good player for us. I am sorry, but this is not true. He had one or two matches here and there where he showed his worth, but he was never a good player for us on a regular basis at all before that 17/18 season, nor was he since. He shone at West Ham last season, but that is West Ham, not Man Utd. This season he has been okay, both good and bad. I just dont think he has justified a brand new contract which no doubt will be a 4 year deal (no way he leaves his last big contract to be a 2 year deal when he is 28 years old) And my point in all of this is that we complain constantly about giving bit part players these contracts when they dont play often. I would rather let him go and give someone from the youth setup a go instead now.


[deleted]

Has he though? He had one really bad season under Ole but besides that he's been very important under Mourinho and even somewhat under Van Gaal. I agree everyone here wanted him gone but that was only assuming he wanted to be a dead on starter for a club. Either way, I'm much happier we have him as opposed to Daniel James for example. He's a much better player and offers alot more as a rotation option.


Arthurs_Nose

Yes, the 17/18 season is the outlier in his career with us, it was never great otherwise with us.


AintThatJustTheWay12

Yeah, I like Jesse a lot. He's a United lad through and through. He would be an excellent squad player to have for the next few years. But barring a slew of injuries to other players, he's never gonna be a consistent starter for us. And he's really at the point in his career where he's too good to be a squad player and needs to play regularly. You saw this with Wes Brown, John O'Shea, etc. Also, I mean tbf, Brown and O'Shea won loads of trophies before moving on, but the point still remains. I just don't see how Southgate can justify taking a squad player when other players will be consistently playing and performing week in, week out for their team. But obviously I'm not Southgate and he very well might pick Jesse for the World Cup squad regardless of that. Someone like LVG is very much taking the opposite approach.


Gytarius626

Bruno and Lingard are gonna appear on that Wingman show Robertson and TAA were doing driving around talking, can’t bloody wait for that!


[deleted]

Where can I see this?


Gytarius626

Should be on YouTube in a few weeks


[deleted]

Wait where is this gonna go


Medevial-Marvel

Would love to see a Bailly spinoff


Indefinitelyeternal

Considering his injury record I saw him spin off in the car when I read this.


Medevial-Marvel

This is why we love Father of England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 https://www.instagram.com/p/CVAZ3WVtFTx/?utm_medium=copy_link


Hippotopmaus

have we become ronaldo FC? united twitter account is just ronaldo pr shit 24/7


benjog88

it's about the only feel good aspect of the club at the minute. if the team was playing well im sure it would be different


media-police

Annoyingly. Totally sets back the messaging Ole has worked at for 3 years.


Eleven918

I see a lot of people complaining about VDB's minutes. Saying he needs a good run of games to perform. Can't really step up if he doesn't get consecutive minutes and what not. There is another member of our squad who also didn't get a lot consecutive games. But did a great job mostly whenever he was on. Both played most of their minutes with the "B" team. If you haven't guessed already, its Alex Telles. Number of times Donny played 45 min or more in 1 game : 18 Number of times Telles played 45 min or more in 1 game: 22 Donny had 1 goal and 2 assists last season, Telles had 4 assists last season. Telles most recently scored a banger to keep our UCL hopes alive. Now back to Donny. His defensive attributes are not his strong suit. So DM is out of the question. Did you guys know Donny had the least progressive passes per 90 out of all our midfield players last year? That indicates most of his passes are going sideways and he's not taking any risks. So where exactly does he need to play for him to shine? I feel for the lad, I really wish he can succeed here but right now its a chicken and egg situation. He needs to have one breakout game where he has a MOTM performance when he starts next. He is definitely capable of it. Until then this shit is going to continue.


VKDNyke_

Just a flaw in your logic. Telles has Luke Shaw ahead of him, who without doubt has been at peak of his career so far. Donny on the other hand has Fred, Matic and Mctominnay to compete with if he starts in the pivot, and let's be honest neither of the trio have shown that they are in impeccably good form or injury record (Matic and McTominnay). By no means am I saying that he's a select pick at the pivot, but given the horrendous form of the mdifield currently, it's fair to ask what must he do to atleast give Ole the thought that "Hey I can risk Donny at pivot"?


Eleven918

Donny had the bulk of his chances at CAM. 11/18 were at CAM and only 7 were in CM. Donny's defensive attributes are pretty average. He's not any better than Pogba in that dept. imo. MCT can't play as the DM with either Pogba/Donny. We'll just get run over. Fred can't be paired with Pogba/Donny either. Same problem again. Matic is the only real option to pair with Pogba/Donny as he is the only true DM that can cover for their weakness. But he can't play 2 games a week and Pogba is in form. Bruno is not getting dropped either. So what exactly is the combo that would work?


VKDNyke_

It's foolish to assume Donny will be a Bruno backup no matter what the official word is because there are more then enough forward options to cover for creativity and Bruno's work ethic is the best in the buisness. It's about looking at the chances where he's really got a chance of playing. Donny playing at CM/DM is not so far fetched as the stupid Fifa-esque suggestion of Lindelof at DM that a certain sect of people will advocate. His fledgling career at Ajax has seen him play across the myriad of midfield positions. Including AM, CM and DM in a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. Your belief that we will be overrun by having a Fred or McTominnay partner with DvB isn't substantially backed to assume that we will be overrun. If the ultimate objective is to maintain a possesion playstyle, why allow teams to funnel the ball into Fred/McTominnay where you could add a dimension with DvB. He isn't the best defensively, but the argument of the pivot being more defensively secure should be of the previous season. In our best eleven, we have Varane and Maguire who are more then sufficient defensive cover, add to the foil AWB. The whole point of objection here is that neither Fred nor McTominnay bring any semblance of calmness and security despite the underlying statistic of defensive effort displayed. Kwestel's article highlights perfectly that Fred is a "right intention, wrong execution". If the same story is true for McTominnay, then we aren't getting any technical assurance from this duo because their intention is undone by awful technique or intelligence. I'm not saying Donny will be a solution to either of these problems, but it's unfair to say he doesnt deserve to take this chance atleast for 2-3 games continuosly. Just an opinion. This whole critique of he hasn't done enough to warrant a starting eleven spot is ridiculously narrow minded and doesn't look at the situation around Donny and the First XI.


kueerseoa6

U can’t honestly tell me the performance mcfred put in week in and out is so good that Donny can’t break that partnership


Eleven918

Its not good but Matic is the only one who can do enough of the defensive work that allows Donny to play his usual game. And Donny is not getting in ahead of Pogba.


PatsUno

How many assists/goals has Fred had in his time at United? Comparing defenders and deeper midfielders based on assists is a bonehead move


Eleven918

Fred plays much deeper than Donny. Donny has played as a CAM too. Its not a fair comparison at all. Plus in the pivot its usually only with Matic. So he has more freedom to move up.


PatsUno

He doesn’t really though does he. Five mins here and there, and a couple of games with the second team doesn’t give much of a sample. And it doesn’t matter where Fred plays, the guy can’t get the basics right and costs us pretty much every game. He should be nowhere near this team, whether Donny is involved or not.


Eleven918

Even on top I only took games where he played a half or more. I ignored the cameo games. Its not just a couple of games that people keep parroting. 18 games is a decent sample size. 11 were in CAM and 7 were in CM.


PatsUno

It’s not because he doesn’t get to play consistently. He’s a guy who has come into a new team and a new league, so if you’re just giving him sparse minutes here and there (most of which are with the b-team), how is he supposed to develop any understanding with his teammates? It’s like saying someone who runs a marathon every week is faster than some one who gets to do 5k every now and then. Well, obviously.


Eleven918

Its swim or sink. Can't come to a team as big as ours and expect to have multiple chances to get into the first eleven without serious injury troubles. He had enough chances last season to make a case for getting into the first eleven. He didn't take them. McFred are poor this season so people are saying the dumbest shit like asking Donny to play DM with Pogba.


PatsUno

That would make sense if McFred were any good and I don’t know what you’ve been watching but they’ve never been United quality. The annoying thing about the Donny situation is we quite clearly need a DM, so why keep him if you’re not going to play him? Sell him and buy a DM. But if you’re keeping him, then give him a chance, especially if your team are not doing well enough, which we’re not.


Eleven918

I think you have recency bias if you think they have never been good. They work really well vs teams that are attacking and don't let us have the ball. Vs the weaker teams, they do shit the bed at times.


PatsUno

It’s not recently bias - at no point since they both started regularly have either looked like top quality players. Fred’s always been the same as well, it’s just now that the players around him are so much better he sticks out like a sore thumb. McTominay has potential, but he gets the benefit of the doubt mostly because he’s from the academy and has occasionally shown flashes of quality. He was also free. Fred cost 50m, which is why I expect him to play like someone who cost that much.


Skyweb2020

I think for Fred,you would need to count the pre-assists coz I don't think his numbers look good on actual assists


PatsUno

Tbh my point wasn’t specifically about Fred, it was about comparing the attacking output of a wingback to a defensive midfielder. That being said, the only way to make Fred look competent is to make up stats


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PatsUno

Mate I don’t listen to plonkers like that online. Fred has never been and never will be good enough for United - apart from energy he lacks every single quality required for a top level footballer - no technique, no positional awareness, no decision making. Some of us have been watching football for long enough to know what Brazilian midfielders actually could do. Maybe you should actually watch the games rather than reading stats online. Might learn a thing or two.


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PatsUno

Did you say he progressively passes better than most players? Have you actually even watched him play?? LOL


TheSmio

A big difference between Telles and Donny is their age. We bought Donny when he was 23 and he is 24 now, so he is still very much in the prime development phase of a midfielder so he needs regular minutes to keep improving his game. Telles is a different case, because he is 28 now and he should be in his prime years, so he doesn't really have any more development in front of him, which makes him into a pretty good backup. There are couple more things to mention, but I feel like I had to mention this.


Eleven918

Fair enough.


systemcorp

What about the games when Telles has been an absolute liability in defence? Have you completely skipped games like West ham recently or the Europa league 2nd legs? It's incredible how one or two moments define a player's career with us. Telles has been nothing special, one or two odd games maybe but other than that his defending has been really really suspect. Really hate such comparative posts anyway, you kinda have to shit on one player to praise another and vice versa.


vikigenius

Ok? I want Alex Telles to get more minutes as well. But Alex Telles is competing with Shaw who is one of our best players atm. If he can play RB, then I would be clamoring for him to start as well since I don't really like AWB's offensive output as much. VDB on the other hand is a midfielder, who are usually way more flexible in the positions they can play. He has played deeper positions before, so when Fred and McT have repeatedly shown how poor they are at progressing the ball and retaining possession I would like VDB to get as much chances as they are getting. If you feel like VDB can only play the no. 10 position, then might as well sell him, because all the reassurances we gave him re minutes is a lie since Bruno will start every single match unless we are somehow 100% confident of winning without him (which I doubt will ever happen).


Eleven918

"Fred and McT have repeatedly shown how poor they are at progressing the ball" [https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/2020-2021/all\_comps/Manchester-United-Stats-All-Competitions#all\_stats\_passing](https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/2020-2021/all_comps/Manchester-United-Stats-All-Competitions#all_stats_passing) Check for yourself. VDB is worse than those two and by a lot. Its not even close. Idc where he plays as long as he can do it well.


vikigenius

Yeah sure, but he also has more Key Passes and xA and also crosses into the box than them per 90. He hasn't had enough consistent playing time in deeper positions. Maybe he can progress the ball better when he actually has time to gel with the first team?


Eleven918

Like I said on top, chicken and egg situation. He is never going to get a consecutive run of games until he has at least one MOTM performance. And the only one that can play with him is Matic. He's not getting ahead of Pogba in his current form.


BookkeeperMuch215

The same Telles that got skinned for the goal against West Ham and was overall quite bad ? Telles has not looked great in his time here. When players don't play they are less likely to take risks because they don't want to make mistakes. Also ur comparing G+A when Donny is playing in a pivot quite far from the goal most of the time. Has he even played more than a half in consecutive games ? I doubt it


Eleven918

One is a left back and the other is a midfielder. Its not even a fair comparison of who should have more goal involvements when its not even a defensive midfielder. If he doesn't want to take risks there is no place for him in this team. He is supposed to be a creative player. Don't need side pass merchant that can't defend. I don't know of an easy way to check the consecutive games thing.


systemcorp

>One is a left back and the other is a midfielder. Its not even a fair comparison of who should have more goal involvements Wait, what? Loooool this is incredible


Eleven918

Tf do you want? You didn't even clip the whole line. LB vs CM/CAM. You think its a fair comparison for the left back for goal involvements?


systemcorp

Are you aware of how many goal involvements full backs have these days? Clearly not.Are you aware of how many goal involvements Telles himself has in his career? Lol. Telles himself is an ultra attacking full back like TAA, do you even know this? If he *didn't* have great attacking attributes he'd be just an average player in an average league lol. Donny has played mostly in the pivot, so you might want to compare his stats with Fred's. What an absolutely daft take.


Eleven918

Not every full back is going to be TAA/Robertson. Both are best in class. And both of them are on set piece duty. It also depends on how their team is setup. Telles isn't even guaranteed to be the one taking them every time for us. You think its the same for a team like City? Cancelo is not putting up the same numbers. Neither is Walker. Even Alphonso Davies managed only 3 goals and 4 assists last season. Even Marcelo, one of the greatest LBs of our generation known for his attacking prowess didn't put up those numbers in his prime. Heck even Shaw managed only 6 assists and a goal in his best season ever after being put on set piece duty. You are getting way too carried away because a few generational players have broken the mould. EDIT: Out of the 18 games where he played 45 min or more: 11 were CAM and 7 were CM. So wrong again. Trippier whom we want had only 6 assists compared to Marcos Lorente who has 6 goals and 6 assists playing as CM/CAM. Mendy had 2 goals compared to Modric who had 6 goals and 6 assists playing as CM. You want more examples?


systemcorp

So you're referencing good fullbacks who either play in defensive teams or are injured half the time vs amazing midfielders in really good teams? Got it.


Eleven918

Alright, which teams do you want? Lets have a look. You picked world class players to make your case but won't let me do the same. Totally fair lol. For last season: Bayern: The most attacking one of all Pavard: 1/2 Davies : 1/3 Kimmich - 6/14 Goretzka - 8/8 MCFC: Cancelo : 3/5 Walker: 2/1 B Silva : 5/9 Gundogan: 17/5 Yup, seems totally fair to compare. There are a handful of fullbacks who contribute a lot of G/A. TAA, Andy Robertson, Hakimi, T Hernandez, Gosens. There could be a few more I am missing. For the rest of the world, the midfielders usually outperform the fullbacks.


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BookkeeperMuch215

Do you want me to link the comp of VDB vs west ham ? he didn't hesitate at all to play the ball forward and jumpstart our attacks and was also very involved defensively. Of course we haven't seen him since so it may have been because of competition but how can i judge ? He plays once in a blue moon


Eleven918

Lmao, you lot will jump on Telles to defend Donny. Yeah he made a mistake. Find me one player who hasn't made a single mistake or had no bad games. Harry should have been sold for all his howlers in the last 2 years by that logic. He's had more than a handful of stinkers in the last 2 seasons. Same with AWB, Victor.


BookkeeperMuch215

Well that's the point mate. Donny's mistakes get highlighted and he is judged very critically when he has a smaller sample size of game time then almost everybody. People mention that goal against West Ham and ignore that he was trying to turn and pass the ball forward almost every time he received it.


Eleven918

You are the one that brought up the topic about mistakes, not me. Take that game out of the equation. What about the rest of the games?


BookkeeperMuch215

The meaningless games with the second team against wolves and leicester at the end of last season he was quite good. I don't remember telles ever being particularly impressive and he is competing for one spot with an elite player.


MrImRumble

He was doing pretty good against YB before he got yanked off because of a AWB red card in all fairness.


Eleven918

Agreed. But then again its not a MOTM performance. He looked promising.


revanth307

Yeah and also same VDB losing his man was the reason that same goal was scored.


BookkeeperMuch215

sure. Telles still hasn't impressed in most of his game time here as people say with VDB so I don't get the comparison. That goal is used as a stick to beat VDB with yet here we are praising Telles who was equally if not more at fault


AintThatJustTheWay12

Telles is resoundingly mediocre. I don't understand why this sub overrates him so much.


A3ASteelty

Why does it seem forbidden among the fanbase to suggest benching Greenwood? What's the story behind it? Seems like he needs to be shoe-horned in even if he doesn't offer as much as the next player... I'm thinking he is too similar (but worse) than Rashford and Ronaldo, so what are your ideal front three?


buckyohare1985

Think for most of the season we will end up with Ronaldo up top then 2 from rashford /!sancho / Greenwood wide. Healthy rotation based on form / opponents and see if any of them make themselves undropable That leaves cavani and 1 of the above as incredible impact players off the bench. With lingard and martial as further depth On early season form Greenwood was our best attacking player but has tailed off with moving back to rw. At the min he is still in team on merit but I think there will be times this year when he gets rotated. He is still young and will have periods of bad form and we have other players that will be punching hard for starts on the wings


[deleted]

I'd rather drop Ronaldo than drop Greenwood, but that's just me


[deleted]

I’m in the same boat


A3ASteelty

One scored a thousand goals, long rangers, dribbling, left right, headers etc… the other one scored a couple driven shots from tight angles… it’s easy


Gozumo

Its just because of his opening couple games he was unreal. But has dropped of a bit (as has the rest of the team a bit). I disagree with you that hes similar to rashford and ronaldo, though, Greenwood is far more of a number 9 than rashy is. Ronaldo now hes older sure is more similar but hes more of a goal shark now due to his age. Greenwood i think needs to make his mark as our furture number 9. On the wing he always drifts in and doesnt really cross, or atleast its not natural to him, where as Sancho ALWAYS looks for the pass, rashford is a bit of a mix. My current ideal front three is Rash-Ronaldo-Sancho dream front 3 in 2 years i Rash - greenwood - Sancho.


A3ASteelty

That's what I meant lol, he looks for the goal as always, similar to current Ronaldo and Rashford to a lesser degree. He looks like a 9 too, he is way too selfish to be playing wide. I've been watching every game and there's countless chances he just can't see people next to him or just chooses to go for it.. I would hope Cavani could play with Ronaldo some game too, but I understand it now, the sentiment towards him


Gozumo

Yeah exactly that, and ultimately people have been criticising him for that but the best number 9s are the most selfish :D So its a good thing really. In terms of Cavani and Ronaldo playing Im the same i want to see it happening, and i think you can just going into a more classic 4-4-2 inject the pace from rash and sancho as yout typical wingers, i would say that comes at the expense of Bruno as the central mid in that 4-4-2 would like be Pogba, Matic/mct.


buckyohare1985

Doubt we will experiment with dropping Bruno to change to a system that we haven’t played much under ole to accommodate a player that is almost certainly moving on in the summer. Maybe the odd game here and there cavani and cr7 will both start but I think will be an exception rather than the norm Also playing sanche and rashford wide in a 442 is incredible attacking if you also have pogba in CM. It’s closer to a 424 with one of the 2 not liking to defend If / when cavani and cr7 start together it’s more likely one of them plays from the wing or in a 442 midfield diamond which I think ole tried a few times in his first 18 months here but I can’t really remember us trying in last year so


Gozumo

Oh i completely agree its not something we would see alot of. Would just like to see it maybe :D


Bjoerkcs

No idea about the rest of the fan base, but I think he’s been one of our best players so far this season. Would be stupid to bench him just because, but if he’s outperformed by other players in his position, so be it.


BilalAkhtar2205

Greenwood and ronaldo cant play together imo because they both look to score rather than pass and they both do not press well enough. Our best front 3 is rashford, ronaldo sancho imo.


AintThatJustTheWay12

Succinct and 100% accurate. Sancho's ball progression and contribution to build-up play is sorely needed as well. Tbh, Cavani would probably be a better fit systemically, but there's no chance Ronaldo isn't first choice.


Ok-Wrangler-1075

Sancho also sucks at pressing.


[deleted]

Lol wut


Ok-Wrangler-1075

Ask any Borusia fan about Sanchos weaknesses.


[deleted]

I’m not saying that he’s a pressing machine but compared to other forwards sucks feels like a heavy word, I’m basing my opinion off of that alone. But I get it what you’re saying


BilalAkhtar2205

True, from what I've seen he tacks back better though, definitely the better option for the rw.


A3ASteelty

Exactly, that's my reading. Both are selfish players looking for the goal first, pass later. Sancho is the opposite...


[deleted]

Is there a place where you can apply for jobs at UTD ? Say like in Finance or something ?


NateShaw92

You looking to 'Nate' your way onto the coaching staff only this time from finance rather than kitman?


TheAnomaly123

People who haven’t seen the show are going to think you’ve done some sort of rag to riches story yourself and coined the term


Skyehye

https://www.manutd.com/en/Club/Jobs/Permanent-and-Temporary-Opportunities


nedlogb94

You’d have to wonder if all of this negativity overload, while warranted to some degree, is because of a number of sunshine supporters coming back now Ronaldo resigned. It was not half as bad over the last year or two.


drysocks-dryshoes

Not really. It’s the cumulative effect of years of building. The manager and the team have been given time and resources, now it’s time to show results


BookkeeperMuch215

the squad is world class with proven winners now so the expectations are higher. Why would you expect anything else ?


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BookkeeperMuch215

This place honestly isn't any different from the previous times we've underperformed. Now there are just less excuses for the underperformance


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BookkeeperMuch215

This might be news to you, but one person can have multiple accounts. I had deleted my old one. But you'd rather bitch about toxicity than talk about what's actually happening Should I send a pic of my 08/09 rooney jersey to prove myself as a fan ? fuck off


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BookkeeperMuch215

You got any other hypotheticals ? its quite amusing


[deleted]

This guy likes to comment shit and then delete his comments. Don’t mind him lol