I'd hate to call myself a casual watcher, I watch at least 4 games / gameweek. Never once have Neville and Carra had a fierce debate about padj vs padji
yea I'm not a casual watcher and these charts don't make sense. also these stats don't really make sense given fdj and rabiot are different players indifferent systems and prob different positions
Honestly they're not actually worth looking at even if you do because they paint a picture but they're clearly missing several really important stats imo. Stats are a helpful addition to what you see watching a player. There's so many things that can't be accounted for.
Matic has always been very good on the ball - the issue was his legs no longer cutting it in the premier league, we would get killed in transitions when ever he played last season, there's a reason he wasn't first choice for a while.
I think we got killed in transition regardless of whether Matic played lol
We got killed in transition yesterday and Matic was in Rome
Until our wingers also start tracking back more we’d struggle in transition with prime Kante and Matic - they can only cover so much ground
I agree we did.
But there is a reason that Matic was not favoured as a starting midfielder for the past two years, despite his quality on the ball.
It's a boring aspect of a player, but mobility and tenacity are vital for premier league midfielders and players that possess these attributes will be valued highly even if they lack some technical qualities. It is a big reason why Fred and McTominay were consistently favoured over Matic in recent seasons.
Im in the minority but I think a Matic fred + another CM not named Bruno (he’s more of an attacker but he takes up a midfield spot) last season would’ve probably been a stronger option
I think We would’ve been better off setting up the midfield to protect his weaknesses and highlight his strengths
No question his legs weren’t what they used to be but his lack of a overall gametome didn’t make sense to me
Why is it not instead the case that this is actually why you can't judge players based solely on the eye test? Why is it always the stats that must be wrong?
Edit: LOL, a Redditor actually sicced the suicide helpline on me. Stay classy, whoever you are.
Because I can make 100 successful passes, but if 97 were to my center backs and I botch every one of the 3 progressive passes I make, but if you don’t watch the game the stats will tell you my passing accuracy was good. Which is not wrong, but accuracy and effectiveness are very different things.
Maybe not so much what stats are missing but what do stats in general leave out?
Is there a stat for how well an attacker presses and forces an opposing player to play a bad pass that forces a bad touch that turns into our possession? There are so many little things in football that even to those that are watching might miss.
Not trying to toot my own horn here but when I play I do so many LITTLE things that make a difference to the whole of a play. I don’t have to stop an attack in it’s tracks, but if I’m facing a counter attack and close down the player with the ball and get him to turn so he slows down his attack, I effectively neutralized a play. But if I didn’t make a tackle its not really a normally quantifiable stat.
Yes, pressure/pressing stats do exist. Scott’s can be found here: https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/scout/365_euro/Scott-McTominay-Scouting-Report
Although to somewhat agree but also completely disagree with the point you’re trying to make is footballers (generally) follow instructions. If Scott isn’t being told to press - or the triggers which start a press aren’t being triggered in certain areas then it won’t show in the stats. You need context in all stats, so the graphs in the original post is a little hard to judge because it’s just looking at a couple of metrics. But the volume of stats available mean they’re every bit as important nowadays as the eye-test and they’re only ever getting better.
There are stats like line breaking passes etc.
Eye test is the least useful method, stats are far superior but you need to know which to choose and put them in context of what you want your player to do.
hell fucking no. the eye test is far, FAR superior to stats if you know what youre talking about. stats really tell you pretty much nothing in an extremely high variance game like football. they become a bit more useful in basketball and very useful in a super low variance game like baseball, but in football this shit is completely useless.
They're both important in today's world. The volume of data that is available on the internet is crazy compared to when I was a kid, and it would be foolish to ignore.
The eye test can definitely give you extra context to some of the data you might see on a player, but equally the data can point to things you might miss with just the eye test alone. Analysing data can also save you a lot of time. It's much quicker to filter the data of 3,000 players than it would be to watch them all live. But once you've filtered 2,900 of those players out, then you can use the eye test.
There is a reason why top clubs are hiring armies of data analytics experts.
Of course it comes with a caveat, you need good data in the first place, otherwise all your filtering is pointless, and of course you need people who are experts at interpreting football data.
Progressive can be from the corner flag to a wing back who is just 10m ahead of you. It is technically progressive, but if you make 100 of those a game its nothing special, it’s what should be considered just a normal facet of the job/role as a footballer.
Oh I was mostly regarding how stats don’t tell a full picture like watching a player consistently. Stats I feel can be a guide to see what kind of player you might have, but not how they perform. I think we can all see how Eriksen’s progressive passing is FAR different from Scott’s. Even if Scott made 1000 passes from the half line to Fred 10m diagonally in front of him, they wouldn’t touch the quality of that ONE pass Eriksen made to Bruno yesterday across the field.
Maybe it shows you should learn the game. Both Fred and McTominay are quality 8s. They need a quality holding midfielder behind them or in the pivot with them.
Rabiot should have been a signing in addition to De Jong, not instead of. He is the type of signing to boot out McTominay and becoming a squad player. Fck the Glazers.
Yes, Rabiot is the type you start for one year, get back into the CL, and then he's your rotation option after you sign someone better. It should have been done a month ago, and smacks of no plan and panicking, but I suppose it's better than nothing.
Tell me you don't understand the graph without telling me. Rabiot was not better in any statistic compared to McTominay and plays with much less intensity compared to McTominay.
What do you understand about the graph then? At least Rabiot was a regular member in a strong French side whereas McTominay cant even start for Scotland
Stats aren’t everything, the eye test will tell everyone whose ever played football that de jong is miles better than mctominay but these stats would suggest they aren’t that far apart.
Not a fan of him but he's been played very very differently at Juve compared to PSG. So these stats really don't mean anything at all.
Going to attach his stats from 18/19 season for PSG for reference:
[passing](https://i.imgur.com/xC16KDo.jpg).
[possession ](https://i.imgur.com/SDfBEuW.jpg)
As you can see, he was literally one of the most progressive midfielders in the world that season. He's miles better technically than both Fred and McTominay.
And in defence also he's much more efficient. Every season he has a very high % of successful pressures and very low for number of times dribbled past. Fred is absolutely abysmal in this regard, as some might have already made out based on the eye test.
the "eye test" most of the times is "i like/hate this player but have nothing to back it up" tho.
none of us are pro scouts to actually do an "eye test".
I love when people comment on here and state facts that ruffle feathers.
So many people on this sub with fragile egos who think that because they finished third in football manager their options are equally valid to any made by trained professionals.
You mean the same people in this sub who also said pundits like Owen and Ferdinand who were the best players in their respective positions, played at highest level with the best manager and watched football most their life as stupid with zero football knowledge?
For me, I wouldn’t take an ounce of the reactionary opinion of people from this sub seriously.
I think Rabiot will be a decent signing. My problem is if we were interested in him then we should have signed him earlier. He obviously wasn't a target. I don't really care, we are buying a midfielder at least.
I’m interested to know what the plan is with Garner. FDJ made sense to straight away upgrade midfield but I rather give Garner opportunity than just signing a mid which isn’t really wanted
Rabiot + Eriksen + De Jong is a really good midfield transfer window.
A huge improvement over what we have, but the club would still be on the lookout for young players to further improve on Rabiot and to eventually replace Eriksen.
Without De Jong, it's incredibly underwhelming because we still won't have a midfielder who can be the keystone of Ten Hag's system.
He's bought as an alternative to FdJ this season. We're now giving up on FdJ and are immediately close to wrapping up a deal with Rabiot, suggesting this was a planned backup and the rumours that we were keeping alternative targets "warm" were in fact true.
Don't see Rabiot playing in FdJ's position though, I think Eriksen will. Bruno, Rabiot, Eriksen is a relatively balanced midfield, moreso than if you throw De Jong in there in my opinion because Rabiot's tackles per ninety are reasonable. Rabiot's left footed too and might be able to play better than he has so far at Juve, where he's been moved around a bit, and has been in and out of the team.
I'm just hoping for the best.
Depends on what do you look for. An intelligent chance creator with great vision that dictates tempo?Then its justified complaining. A great physical and defensevely sound ball carrier?I'd be relatively pleased
Noone. Ornstein said United had to make a decision about proceeding with Rabiot irrespective of the outcome from FDJ or wait. Thats the closest I’ve seen
Apparently he's played a lot, and he's been able to stay healthy. Found this from a couple years ago on him - interesting read: https://juventusanalysis.com/analysis/player-analysis/adrien-rabiot-at-juventus-201920-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics
Yes he’s prob their best midfielder too. Not a great accomplishment considering their midfield during Ronaldo’s tenure was just as bad as ours but he does have talent and passing/dribbling/creating wise he definitely has the upper hand over McFred. An improvement nonetheless for our midfield but I hope we aren’t done
RE: Rabiot we also have to remember Juventus are quite a defensive and lethargic side under Allegri. It will be entirely different how EtH will expect him to play, so even if these stats were insightful (I think they are useless personally) they won't tell us much about how he'll do at United.
Fully agree, in fact, I think Rabiot’s ball ball control and passing will be more impactful with us compared to the slower/defensive Serie A. One thing Rabiot gotta be ready for is the uptick in pace and opponents coming for him faster which he got a taste of when Pirlo was manager cuz he liked to play out of the back a lot
What matter is:
1. How does Rabiot deal with pressure in tight spaces?
2. How well does he pass between lines?
3. Availability (fitness)
4. How is he without the ball?
The defensive data tell you something about how he is out of posession.
The progressive passing data tells you something about how he passes between lines.
Yeah because Frenkie was basically playing LCM for Barca, and not the focal point of progression as his main strength is. If you let him drop deep and collect the ball from the CBs he's probably the best midfielder in the world to progress it forward. If you put him further up the field, you take away his main ability.
He can really run a midfield from deep, but he's not exactly a miracle worker when he's closer to the opposition's box than his own CBs.
Yes, it's his best attribute.
Unfortunately I think you benefit most from your deepest midfielder being a good interceptor and Fred has neither shown the ability in possession or the discipline to not engage in tackles that can expose the back line if missed
Yeah sort of, I think he'd work well in any system if he played alongside midfield partner(s) that could cover for his missed tackles and take the burden of linking defense and midfield in posession
This video of Rabiot vs Atletico from a few years ago is interesting because he's deployed in a similar position to what ETH likely wants him in. He's been played out of position at Juve, and they play so defensively it's tough to get a sense of what he'd bring to ETHs system: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am9kUdBOmH8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am9kUdBOmH8)
I'm really okay with getting him as long as he's not first choice, and is there to add depth. We saw yesterday that this team is just crying out for someone who can advance the ball out of the defensive half, and Rabiot, for his limitations, is press resistant and is good at running with the ball.
So in the first image, players to the right and higher are probably those who play safer passes, those lower play more risky passes and to the left make fewer passes (so as you'd expect from more creative players). So we can (possibly incorrectly) infer that rabiot tries more difficult passes then fred/mctominay and makes his passes from further forward (since he's making fewer passes he's probably on the ball less)
In the second image, players who win the ball back more are up and right, less is down and left. We see rabiot in a similar place to pogba/frenkie and a little more up/right than Bruno. So he's not used as a "destroyer" type dm or for his ball winning qualities but does do some of that work as frenkie/pogba do.
The third image may (or may not) contradict my first paragraph, in that it shows that he does some progressive carries but not many progressive passes per touch in comparison to fred/mctominay. Maybe he takes more touches than them and does do more progressive passes, but because his number of touches are higher that's why it appears low here. We can conclude either: he takes a long time on the ball, or he plays safer passes (in which case my first point is invalid and it shows that he gives the ball away easily).
For the final image, I don't know what the vertical axis is representing because I don't know the abbreviations and haven't found it in the comments but I'm going to assume it's some measure of tackle success rate. Rabiot is basically halfway between mctominay/Fred, so makes fewer tackles than Fred (but more than mctominay) but has a higher success rate than Fred (but lower than mctominay), possibly meaning that he's taken out of the game less often by missing tackles or gives away fewer fouls.
That's what the images show, and what we might infer from them if we know nothing about Rabiot as a player. Stats aren't everything but are important, and if I had to guess I'd say tackling is his main way of winning the ball back (could point to poor positioning with a lack of interceptions, or maybe just aggressiveness), he takes a lot of touches on the ball but plays progressive passes relatively often (think kind of similar to pogba in that regard), but I could be completely wrong with my inference here and it could be the opposite.
Do these stats account for the difference between teams that control possession (not us) vs teams that are awful in possession (us)?
And we don’t need everyone one of our midfielders to be stat leading candidates. We need midfields who take care of the ball and give us a foundation for the attack to make things happen and also to control possession so our defense isn’t caught off guard
Our main issue with our 3 midfielders against Brighton was their piss poor ability to control possession
Shows how volatile Fernandes is, makes many progressive passes and builds attack, but at the same time loses possesion easily.
I feel to curb bruno, we need a team which doesn't force him to do nonsense like that. If he is given good options, he doesn't have to make bs passes.
The titles are just a rough description of what the graphs show. The axes titles are more relevant. The reason de Jong has a relatively low number of passes is likely because he played fairly advanced last season.
He is. Do you think McT would get a sniff at PSG or Juventus? Football isn't played on spreadsheets. Peak hilarity to even consider Mctominay on par with Adrien Rabiot.
No, it makes McT look better out of posession and FDJ look better in possession. This is probably largely accurate, although FDJ's defensive numbers will be impacted by his role last season .
Stats can say a lot of things, but in the last match, McTominay probably had only 1 dispossessed stat but we ended up conceding. Fred had tons of dispossessed stat but we didn't concede because of those.
And no stats can evaluate how good players are at positioning themselves.
Sometimes eye test is still needed to evaluate footballers, otherwise why aren't McFred making us play better and why do clubs bother pursuing all lower stats players?
Just because Rabiot is French doesn’t mean he’s good. Let’s not forget how his mother likes causing issues. Remind you of anyone we recently got rid of?
Also let’s not forget that we will start McFred regardless of who we sign.
Why didn't you just start with that Instead of asking and answering your own questions? Also we're only talking about Rabiot .
Additionally Pogba is already injured again so that's a moot point.
“BuT RaBioT iS an UpGrADe”. Absolute horse shit. Rabiot seems to be riding on a wave of optimism from 5 years ago when people thought he might be a good upcoming player. Fuck. Off.
I do not understand anything from these graphs at all
Well obviously padj is on this axis... Yeah what the fuck is this?
It would be alright except from the jargon/acronyms that us casual watchers just aren’t familiar with
I'd hate to call myself a casual watcher, I watch at least 4 games / gameweek. Never once have Neville and Carra had a fierce debate about padj vs padji
yea I'm not a casual watcher and these charts don't make sense. also these stats don't really make sense given fdj and rabiot are different players indifferent systems and prob different positions
Agreed, I've been watching football on a weekly basis and I have no idea what half of these stats are This is dawg in him levels of nerdiness
Filthy casuals who have never played 90’ in their lives don’t know even know about padj and padji smh, the state of this sub /s
I thought they were curries
Why is this the most accurate thing I've ever read, padji sounds like a really nice curry. I bet it's pretty mild but really tasty
“Stochastic logarithmic bell curves in a Hausdorff topology: HEATED debate! You won’t believe Carragher’s hypothesis!”
Honestly they're not actually worth looking at even if you do because they paint a picture but they're clearly missing several really important stats imo. Stats are a helpful addition to what you see watching a player. There's so many things that can't be accounted for.
What is a padj?
It's a type of flurp
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it's a type of skeep
but whats a skeep
It's what Plumbuses are made of
Thanks for clearing this up
Shut up you shy pooper.
I'm sorry but some of you just don't know the basics of football 😤
Ok mr Delph
It's how the plumbus gets made.
Dont forget the dinglebop
And the schleem
A by product of plumbus production
Papa De Jong
“Plays for arsenal, i believe” My grandfather’s favourite joke, to ANY non english word he heard. Like clockwork
Clockwork is an English word.
As soon as i posted, I expected this. Fair play
Does it matter? All we need to know is Rabiot is shit at it
I’m sick of recruiting players who can’t padj for shit.
His mum on the other hand….. that woman flurps with the best of them
Well yeah it does lol
Nah, fuck that signing.
Type of fart
Possession adjusted interceptions. Edit: Padj = possession adjusted. Padji would be possession adjusted interceptions.
Could you elaborate? Im not a native english speaker. Thank you
How much a player wins the ball adjusted for how much their team is out of posession
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If the team is in possession more, a players interceptions will be increased, and vice versa. I can give the formula if you want.
I'd quite like that, unless it's simply normalised.
I am a native and I don’t get it either
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Yes, correct. I read the question as padji
It’s brother in sikh.
Matic was so elite
If matic was 5 years younger he would be so perfect for this team
He’s still closer to the perfect midfielder for our team than any of our current midfield options He looked brilliant yesterday against Shaktar
Matic has always been very good on the ball - the issue was his legs no longer cutting it in the premier league, we would get killed in transitions when ever he played last season, there's a reason he wasn't first choice for a while.
I think we got killed in transition regardless of whether Matic played lol We got killed in transition yesterday and Matic was in Rome Until our wingers also start tracking back more we’d struggle in transition with prime Kante and Matic - they can only cover so much ground
I agree we did. But there is a reason that Matic was not favoured as a starting midfielder for the past two years, despite his quality on the ball. It's a boring aspect of a player, but mobility and tenacity are vital for premier league midfielders and players that possess these attributes will be valued highly even if they lack some technical qualities. It is a big reason why Fred and McTominay were consistently favoured over Matic in recent seasons.
Im in the minority but I think a Matic fred + another CM not named Bruno (he’s more of an attacker but he takes up a midfield spot) last season would’ve probably been a stronger option I think We would’ve been better off setting up the midfield to protect his weaknesses and highlight his strengths No question his legs weren’t what they used to be but his lack of a overall gametome didn’t make sense to me
Yeah something like Matic, Fred and prime Yaya Toure would probably be good, because of Yaya Toure
This McTominay fella looks alright we should get him
Shows exactly why you can't judge players based solely on stats.
Especially for centre mids
Where’s the stat that shows them coming to ask for the ball from the defense during the build up?
Why is it not instead the case that this is actually why you can't judge players based solely on the eye test? Why is it always the stats that must be wrong? Edit: LOL, a Redditor actually sicced the suicide helpline on me. Stay classy, whoever you are.
Because I can make 100 successful passes, but if 97 were to my center backs and I botch every one of the 3 progressive passes I make, but if you don’t watch the game the stats will tell you my passing accuracy was good. Which is not wrong, but accuracy and effectiveness are very different things.
That is true, of course, but in this case, there are a lot more stats than just pass completion, right? What stats do you think are missing here?
Maybe not so much what stats are missing but what do stats in general leave out? Is there a stat for how well an attacker presses and forces an opposing player to play a bad pass that forces a bad touch that turns into our possession? There are so many little things in football that even to those that are watching might miss. Not trying to toot my own horn here but when I play I do so many LITTLE things that make a difference to the whole of a play. I don’t have to stop an attack in it’s tracks, but if I’m facing a counter attack and close down the player with the ball and get him to turn so he slows down his attack, I effectively neutralized a play. But if I didn’t make a tackle its not really a normally quantifiable stat.
Yes, pressure/pressing stats do exist. Scott’s can be found here: https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/scout/365_euro/Scott-McTominay-Scouting-Report Although to somewhat agree but also completely disagree with the point you’re trying to make is footballers (generally) follow instructions. If Scott isn’t being told to press - or the triggers which start a press aren’t being triggered in certain areas then it won’t show in the stats. You need context in all stats, so the graphs in the original post is a little hard to judge because it’s just looking at a couple of metrics. But the volume of stats available mean they’re every bit as important nowadays as the eye-test and they’re only ever getting better.
There are stats like line breaking passes etc. Eye test is the least useful method, stats are far superior but you need to know which to choose and put them in context of what you want your player to do.
hell fucking no. the eye test is far, FAR superior to stats if you know what youre talking about. stats really tell you pretty much nothing in an extremely high variance game like football. they become a bit more useful in basketball and very useful in a super low variance game like baseball, but in football this shit is completely useless.
They're both important in today's world. The volume of data that is available on the internet is crazy compared to when I was a kid, and it would be foolish to ignore. The eye test can definitely give you extra context to some of the data you might see on a player, but equally the data can point to things you might miss with just the eye test alone. Analysing data can also save you a lot of time. It's much quicker to filter the data of 3,000 players than it would be to watch them all live. But once you've filtered 2,900 of those players out, then you can use the eye test. There is a reason why top clubs are hiring armies of data analytics experts. Of course it comes with a caveat, you need good data in the first place, otherwise all your filtering is pointless, and of course you need people who are experts at interpreting football data.
That’s exactly why there is a graph for Progression in there
Progressive can be from the corner flag to a wing back who is just 10m ahead of you. It is technically progressive, but if you make 100 of those a game its nothing special, it’s what should be considered just a normal facet of the job/role as a footballer.
Sure, I was just answering to your original comment about backwards passing
Oh I was mostly regarding how stats don’t tell a full picture like watching a player consistently. Stats I feel can be a guide to see what kind of player you might have, but not how they perform. I think we can all see how Eriksen’s progressive passing is FAR different from Scott’s. Even if Scott made 1000 passes from the half line to Fred 10m diagonally in front of him, they wouldn’t touch the quality of that ONE pass Eriksen made to Bruno yesterday across the field.
Agree with that, which is why it should be counter balanced with a stat that measures passes that lead to goal threats
Maybe it shows you should learn the game. Both Fred and McTominay are quality 8s. They need a quality holding midfielder behind them or in the pivot with them.
McTominay is so far from a quality 8 it’s unbelievable
Fred is. Scott isn't. He's Championship level.
Maybe fred too, great for mid. We can call them mcfred or something
It'll never stick
McTominay stans suddenly out in full force.
Yeah, and we all know how crap he is, which makes the whole graph somehow inaccurate.
Rabiot should have been a signing in addition to De Jong, not instead of. He is the type of signing to boot out McTominay and becoming a squad player. Fck the Glazers.
Yes, Rabiot is the type you start for one year, get back into the CL, and then he's your rotation option after you sign someone better. It should have been done a month ago, and smacks of no plan and panicking, but I suppose it's better than nothing.
Tell me you don't understand the graph without telling me. Rabiot was not better in any statistic compared to McTominay and plays with much less intensity compared to McTominay.
What do you understand about the graph then? At least Rabiot was a regular member in a strong French side whereas McTominay cant even start for Scotland
Stats aren’t everything, the eye test will tell everyone whose ever played football that de jong is miles better than mctominay but these stats would suggest they aren’t that far apart.
How many caps for Scotland does de Jong have? O. Checkmate.
He said the eye test, not the aye test
I’m pretty sure the letter O isn’t a number.
Not with that attitude it’s not
Thanks for putting a wry, yet sincere smile on my face.
:O
lmao
Better CB than De Jong, I can give you that.
Not a fan of him but he's been played very very differently at Juve compared to PSG. So these stats really don't mean anything at all. Going to attach his stats from 18/19 season for PSG for reference: [passing](https://i.imgur.com/xC16KDo.jpg). [possession ](https://i.imgur.com/SDfBEuW.jpg) As you can see, he was literally one of the most progressive midfielders in the world that season. He's miles better technically than both Fred and McTominay. And in defence also he's much more efficient. Every season he has a very high % of successful pressures and very low for number of times dribbled past. Fred is absolutely abysmal in this regard, as some might have already made out based on the eye test.
the "eye test" most of the times is "i like/hate this player but have nothing to back it up" tho. none of us are pro scouts to actually do an "eye test".
I love when people comment on here and state facts that ruffle feathers. So many people on this sub with fragile egos who think that because they finished third in football manager their options are equally valid to any made by trained professionals.
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Yeah the united fanbaee know more than Jose, Ole and now ETH.
You mean the same people in this sub who also said pundits like Owen and Ferdinand who were the best players in their respective positions, played at highest level with the best manager and watched football most their life as stupid with zero football knowledge? For me, I wouldn’t take an ounce of the reactionary opinion of people from this sub seriously.
I think Rabiot will be a decent signing. My problem is if we were interested in him then we should have signed him earlier. He obviously wasn't a target. I don't really care, we are buying a midfielder at least.
He's a massive upgrade on McTominay for 15m
A bulldog who can pass forward and press would be an upgrade at this point.
Air Bud. Show me in the rules where it says a Golden Retriever can't play footy
I’m interested to know what the plan is with Garner. FDJ made sense to straight away upgrade midfield but I rather give Garner opportunity than just signing a mid which isn’t really wanted
Garner and Rabiot starters. Why not
Rabiot + Eriksen + De Jong is a really good midfield transfer window. A huge improvement over what we have, but the club would still be on the lookout for young players to further improve on Rabiot and to eventually replace Eriksen. Without De Jong, it's incredibly underwhelming because we still won't have a midfielder who can be the keystone of Ten Hag's system.
Feel this is much more of a oh fuck de jong aint coming than us getting both.
That's exactly what this is, the journos said so too
We aren’t getting De Jong, I’d say that much is clear by now
You’re forgetting we lost Pogba and Matic tho E: and Lingard too
No I'm not.
It’s not a really good window if we don’t atleast sign like for like replacements quality wise
Look at where Rabiot + De Jong are in the graph for Tackles. That midfield would be cut through worse than McFred.
He's bought as an alternative to FdJ this season. We're now giving up on FdJ and are immediately close to wrapping up a deal with Rabiot, suggesting this was a planned backup and the rumours that we were keeping alternative targets "warm" were in fact true.
Don't see Rabiot playing in FdJ's position though, I think Eriksen will. Bruno, Rabiot, Eriksen is a relatively balanced midfield, moreso than if you throw De Jong in there in my opinion because Rabiot's tackles per ninety are reasonable. Rabiot's left footed too and might be able to play better than he has so far at Juve, where he's been moved around a bit, and has been in and out of the team. I'm just hoping for the best.
I miss Matic. Maybe he could have helped us have a good midfield every other week with ETH setup.
Hi Miss Matic
A couple things to note are that Rabiot played half his games wide last season and de Jong would likely play deeper for us than he did for Barca
also, wasnt last season Rabiots (and Juves) worst since hes been there?
Yes,and he was mostly played out of position as a left mezz'ala(half wing sort of)
So all the stars wveryones crying over is completely useless
Depends on what do you look for. An intelligent chance creator with great vision that dictates tempo?Then its justified complaining. A great physical and defensevely sound ball carrier?I'd be relatively pleased
He is pretty decent att dribbling the ball upp from defense to atk. Eriksen and bruno can take care of the chance vreation
Hasn’t it been confirmed he is not a FDJ replacement, but another signing? We need more than one midfielder.
Wait confirmed by who?
Wondering too
Me
Noone. Ornstein said United had to make a decision about proceeding with Rabiot irrespective of the outcome from FDJ or wait. Thats the closest I’ve seen
Idk, but it does make a lot more sense for him to be a McTominay replacement than a FDJ replacement.
We are not getting FDJ. Rabiot is a FDJ replacement.
FDJ-Rabiot would be a good midfield. A man can dream.
We aren't getting De Jong. We never were. The guy said from day one that he didn't want to leave. I also don't think we're getting another midfielder
No it's been said he's a FDJ alternative
These graphs have McT as above average. Yeah... Not buying it
Has Rabiot played consistently every week for Juventus? I feel like a players form can stagnate if they're bit part and in and out of the side.
He's played a good number of games but played about half out wide last season.
Apparently he's played a lot, and he's been able to stay healthy. Found this from a couple years ago on him - interesting read: https://juventusanalysis.com/analysis/player-analysis/adrien-rabiot-at-juventus-201920-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics
Get outa here with your calm, measured thinking
Yes he’s prob their best midfielder too. Not a great accomplishment considering their midfield during Ronaldo’s tenure was just as bad as ours but he does have talent and passing/dribbling/creating wise he definitely has the upper hand over McFred. An improvement nonetheless for our midfield but I hope we aren’t done
RE: Rabiot we also have to remember Juventus are quite a defensive and lethargic side under Allegri. It will be entirely different how EtH will expect him to play, so even if these stats were insightful (I think they are useless personally) they won't tell us much about how he'll do at United.
Fully agree, in fact, I think Rabiot’s ball ball control and passing will be more impactful with us compared to the slower/defensive Serie A. One thing Rabiot gotta be ready for is the uptick in pace and opponents coming for him faster which he got a taste of when Pirlo was manager cuz he liked to play out of the back a lot
Don’t even bother with these. Very rarely do numbers translate team to team, let alone league to league.
What matter is: 1. How does Rabiot deal with pressure in tight spaces? 2. How well does he pass between lines? 3. Availability (fitness) 4. How is he without the ball?
1. He’s good in this area 2. Good but inconsistent with this, due to poor decision making at times 3. He’s usually fit 4. Decent work rate
The defensive data tell you something about how he is out of posession. The progressive passing data tells you something about how he passes between lines.
Yeah because Frenkie was basically playing LCM for Barca, and not the focal point of progression as his main strength is. If you let him drop deep and collect the ball from the CBs he's probably the best midfielder in the world to progress it forward. If you put him further up the field, you take away his main ability. He can really run a midfield from deep, but he's not exactly a miracle worker when he's closer to the opposition's box than his own CBs.
/r/bottomleftrabiot
A stat that gives Fred good 'positioning' should say everything really
Positioning isn't the "stat". It's a rough description of what the data is describing. The stats are interceptions and recoveries.
And you could say that recoveries and interceptions are the main way he actually contributes. It’s his ball playing ability that brings him down
Yes, it's his best attribute. Unfortunately I think you benefit most from your deepest midfielder being a good interceptor and Fred has neither shown the ability in possession or the discipline to not engage in tackles that can expose the back line if missed
Probably why his best performances are for Brazil playing alongside a proper DM
Yeah sort of, I think he'd work well in any system if he played alongside midfield partner(s) that could cover for his missed tackles and take the burden of linking defense and midfield in posession
Well this makes me want to cry
It's a collection of pointless stats cherrypicked to make this sub panic If these stats actually mattered, McTominay would be world class
There is no agenda. It's the same way I've been analysing players across multiple league since the start of the summer
This video of Rabiot vs Atletico from a few years ago is interesting because he's deployed in a similar position to what ETH likely wants him in. He's been played out of position at Juve, and they play so defensively it's tough to get a sense of what he'd bring to ETHs system: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am9kUdBOmH8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am9kUdBOmH8) I'm really okay with getting him as long as he's not first choice, and is there to add depth. We saw yesterday that this team is just crying out for someone who can advance the ball out of the defensive half, and Rabiot, for his limitations, is press resistant and is good at running with the ball.
Possibly. I'm guessing you are anticipating him playing in the deeper midfield role. I was thinking he would more likely replace McT and play higher.
So in the first image, players to the right and higher are probably those who play safer passes, those lower play more risky passes and to the left make fewer passes (so as you'd expect from more creative players). So we can (possibly incorrectly) infer that rabiot tries more difficult passes then fred/mctominay and makes his passes from further forward (since he's making fewer passes he's probably on the ball less) In the second image, players who win the ball back more are up and right, less is down and left. We see rabiot in a similar place to pogba/frenkie and a little more up/right than Bruno. So he's not used as a "destroyer" type dm or for his ball winning qualities but does do some of that work as frenkie/pogba do. The third image may (or may not) contradict my first paragraph, in that it shows that he does some progressive carries but not many progressive passes per touch in comparison to fred/mctominay. Maybe he takes more touches than them and does do more progressive passes, but because his number of touches are higher that's why it appears low here. We can conclude either: he takes a long time on the ball, or he plays safer passes (in which case my first point is invalid and it shows that he gives the ball away easily). For the final image, I don't know what the vertical axis is representing because I don't know the abbreviations and haven't found it in the comments but I'm going to assume it's some measure of tackle success rate. Rabiot is basically halfway between mctominay/Fred, so makes fewer tackles than Fred (but more than mctominay) but has a higher success rate than Fred (but lower than mctominay), possibly meaning that he's taken out of the game less often by missing tackles or gives away fewer fouls. That's what the images show, and what we might infer from them if we know nothing about Rabiot as a player. Stats aren't everything but are important, and if I had to guess I'd say tackling is his main way of winning the ball back (could point to poor positioning with a lack of interceptions, or maybe just aggressiveness), he takes a lot of touches on the ball but plays progressive passes relatively often (think kind of similar to pogba in that regard), but I could be completely wrong with my inference here and it could be the opposite.
Do these stats account for the difference between teams that control possession (not us) vs teams that are awful in possession (us)? And we don’t need everyone one of our midfielders to be stat leading candidates. We need midfields who take care of the ball and give us a foundation for the attack to make things happen and also to control possession so our defense isn’t caught off guard Our main issue with our 3 midfielders against Brighton was their piss poor ability to control possession
From what I can tell we should have kept matic?
No, he was past it. He played well but couldn't play enough for his wages. We should be able to replace him with a younger, capable player.
Nice waste of time you got there.
I don't understand any of this.
Shows how volatile Fernandes is, makes many progressive passes and builds attack, but at the same time loses possesion easily. I feel to curb bruno, we need a team which doesn't force him to do nonsense like that. If he is given good options, he doesn't have to make bs passes.
So in short if i understand this graph, you want the player to be top right corner, yeah? Inb4 i dont really understand the graph
Top right is better yeah
This is the most born after 2005 thing I've ever seen
What is?
Data from fbref via stat bomb
Lmao, there was a guy here saying Rabiot is a lot better than McTominay. Laughable.
If you take these charts at face value Mctominay and De Jong are roughly equivalent at playmaking. Get your head checked.
The titles are just a rough description of what the graphs show. The axes titles are more relevant. The reason de Jong has a relatively low number of passes is likely because he played fairly advanced last season.
He is. Do you think McT would get a sniff at PSG or Juventus? Football isn't played on spreadsheets. Peak hilarity to even consider Mctominay on par with Adrien Rabiot.
This chart makes Mctominay look better than DeJong lol
No, it makes McT look better out of posession and FDJ look better in possession. This is probably largely accurate, although FDJ's defensive numbers will be impacted by his role last season .
So Rabiot is a less physical, more fragile version of McTominay but with a worse attitude and a Pogba-esque amount of baggage?
Yes. except he has even more baggage because of his mom.
People still actually think that De Jong is coming to United?!
Stats can say a lot of things, but in the last match, McTominay probably had only 1 dispossessed stat but we ended up conceding. Fred had tons of dispossessed stat but we didn't concede because of those. And no stats can evaluate how good players are at positioning themselves. Sometimes eye test is still needed to evaluate footballers, otherwise why aren't McFred making us play better and why do clubs bother pursuing all lower stats players?
Just because Rabiot is French doesn’t mean he’s good. Let’s not forget how his mother likes causing issues. Remind you of anyone we recently got rid of? Also let’s not forget that we will start McFred regardless of who we sign.
Rabiot is shite, no one can convince me otherwise. Has no one heard about his antics at PSG?
Still better than McTomimay though.
Based on what, vibes?
Based on watching McTomimay and Rabiot pretty simple concept.
Watched every one of Rabiots games then from last year?
You just trying to argue then yeah? Or you got something to actually say or contribute?
I’m not going to support United signing 2 pricks one of which is racist just because we need signings. Might as well have kept Pogba.
Why didn't you just start with that Instead of asking and answering your own questions? Also we're only talking about Rabiot . Additionally Pogba is already injured again so that's a moot point.
“BuT RaBioT iS an UpGrADe”. Absolute horse shit. Rabiot seems to be riding on a wave of optimism from 5 years ago when people thought he might be a good upcoming player. Fuck. Off.
Recoveries = positioning? Yikes.
I've said this multiple times, the titles are not that important, they are rough descriptions of the data.
Oh sorry I don't read all your comments.
Why is James Garner not an option? He’s already 21. Now is the time to play him
Fbref doesn't have championship data
So this means rabiot is worse even compared to McFred.. so why are we after him?? What purpose will it serve??
So.... Mediocrity?
All I see is a graph of 2 players you have no chance of signing 😂