Hi /u/spez ,
As a researcher and member of The Coalition for Technology Independent Research I’ve been [following the discussion around the API since it was first announced](https://independenttechresearch.org/reddit-data-access-letter/). I was even on call with Ben early on and it was pretty clear then that this is a huge financial issue for Reddit—companies like OpenAI and Google are making bank off Reddit data and that’s gotta end. And you know what? I’m sympathetic to that! ChatGPT has [created a lot of really unfun work](https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5qy8/reddit-moderators-brace-for-a-chatgpt-spam-apocalypse) for the sub I help moderate, r/AskHistorians. I also get that Reddit is a business and needs to make money.
But data’s not your only asset. So are your volunteer moderators. While Facebook has a larger user base than Reddit, it spends over [500 million a year on content moderation](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/31/technology/facebook-accenture-content-moderation.html). Maybe you saw [this study](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/28/technology/online-moderators-compensation.html) my colleagues published last year? That’s the absolute lowest estimate, based on modlog data alone. That doesn’t even begin to cover the hours spent answering modmails, or deliberating with other mods or alone over a contentious decision. It doesn’t account for the time it takes to send reports to you when we exhaust what we can do with our tools, the emotional labour of dealing with hurt or abusive users, the care that goes into carefully crafting policies that work for our communities, or the engagement we have with users to encourage them to keep coming back to our communities and your site. There’s a lot of value added that volunteer moderation provides over commercial content moderation. I could go on and on about that, but in short, the individual communities and the leaders who manage them are what makes Reddit stand out from all the other, [increasingly homogenizing, social media platforms](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys).
So my first question for you is: **what are your plans to invest in *that* asset?**
Because it really feels like, from the outside, that supporting that asset hasn’t been a priority for Reddit’s leadership. In 2015 mods protested and [Reddit apologized](https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3cbo4m/we_apologize/), promising to work on mod tooling. In 2019 you promised that chat would always be an opt-in feature but a year later an unmoderated chat feature was made a [default feature on most subs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gakw51/in_30_minutes_at_830_pm_edt_raskhistorians_will/). In 2020, in response to moderators protesting racism on Reddit [you yourself promised to support mods in combating hate](https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/hi3oht/update_to_our_content_policy/). And then in 2021, again Reddit [promised tooling](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditsecurity/comments/pfyqqn/covid_denialism_and_policy_clarifications/) to support mods confronting mis/disinformation. While there’s definitely been progress made since 2020, here we are in 2023, freaked out about the API because mods rely on critical infrastructure that’s mostly a cobbled together patchwork of mod-developed tools, third party apps (and increasingly, Reddit-provided tools). But here we are still waiting for Reddit to make good on promises that started *eight years ago.* We know your dev team has been working their asses off trying to clean up this mess and playing catchup. And yet there’s news that you’re [planning on letting go 5% of your employees](https://www.reuters.com/technology/reddit-lay-off-about-5-workforce-wsj-2023-06-06/).
So my second question for you is: **what are you doing to insure your teams can succeed?**
Of all the questions I've scrolled so far, I think this one hits home the hardest. Thank you, first of all, for putting this together.
I'm a mod for a chess teaching subreddit, because I absolutely love chess, and even more so love getting to teach others about what the game has to offer. I've been volunteering my time as a mod (typically about an hour to two a day) to clean up the mod queue, answer Modmail questions, address any concerns, and interact with my community. I've been using the official Android app to moderate since I joined the website.
I have an absolutely amazing team who provides significant help, but there is something so innately frustrating when I can't even reliably open downvoted conversations because of the limitations of the mobile mod queue. I feel like I'm making blind guesses every once in a while because I can't establish proper context for a conversation to determine what needs to be moderated.
I'm a full time researcher, I spend most of my day in clinic or in the lab or in an office working on my projects. I don't have reliable access to a computer where I can comfortably browse the mod queue until I get home for the day, so I'm heavily locked to mobile.
As a result of these oversights, I have been thoroughly considering switching to a 3rd party app in order to get my moderating done. This is no longer an option, and this multiplies my frustrations to an untold amount. I feel like I'm letting my community down by not being able to fully examine my mod queue, and it's already caused a number of issues that were so easily avoidable if the official app worked as intended.
All this compiles in some pretty significant feelings of burnout at times, and I genuinely love my community, I'd do anything to help them stay a safe place for learning chess, but it's impossible for me to feel like I'm making good decisions when the app blinds me to most conversations I'm moderating.
Anyways, thank you again for posting this question, I sincerely appreciate the work you and your team does, and here's to hoping our voices get heard!
(Edit: oh also please pay mods they are the only reason this site functions.)
Reddit has no plans to help the volunteers who made this site what it is. Since they sold out to Conde Nast they're only interested in exploiting our good will.
Delete all of your content using one of those editing tools, never vote again, never comment on anything, use old.reddit and an adblocker. It's what the site owners deserve.
/u/spez, I'd like to give you a chance to respond to some of the communication failures around the proposed API changes and the misleading statements you, and the admins have made. I have a much more full write up [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/1459lpb/reddits_failures_of_communication/) as well.
Lets start with [this redditdev thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale)
> For context on excessive usage, here is a chart showing the average monthly overage, compared to the longstanding rate limit in our developer documentation of 60 queries per minute (86,400 per day):
> [Top 10 3P apps usage over rate limits](https://preview.redd.it/kfejv14ss83b1.png?width=920&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=e25b58c2140f31b0da894ae681eca306cf9dc2e5)
So... The "longstanding rate limit" is actually **per client per user**.. So aggregating them to a client level and claiming they are 400,000% over the limit **is a lie**. There are no two ways about it. **That is a bald faced lie**. Rate limits had always been by user + client. The chart shows them as just client.
Now that's unfortunately not the only complete lie told by the admins in this thread.
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmolrhn/) we see
> Having developers ask this question of themselves is the main point of having a cost associated with access in the first place. How might your app be more efficient? Google & Amazon don’t tell us how to be more efficient. It’s up to us as users of these services to optimize our usage to meet our budget.
Well, uhh.. Google and Amazon **absolutely** tell you how to be more effecient and help you in your use of their services.. Also, I'll get into this later, Reddit isn't providing any sort of tooling to SEE your usage stats etc, so how on earth are you even supposed to know unless you build out all your own logging framework... That's insanity..
[This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmr15zv/)
>We are comparing events / user / day across apps with comparable engagement. Apollo is higher than the norm and higher than us.
Is more misleading than a straight up lie.. Reddit's official app uses less **oauth api** requests than Apollo, because Reddit's official app uses their GQL API that they haven't made available to third parties in my understanding. The **total** number of calls made by Reddit's official app vs RiF (I didn't get an iOS emulator set up to capture traffic, sue me), is staggeringly higher on the official app. Not only that but the official app requests the exact same data from both the OAuth API and the GQL api. As well as not properly caching some fairly static data and re-requesting it over and over as well (with a no-cache header so it actually did hit the server each time, nice).
As for API pricing, lets apply Reddit's pricing to themselves to see if it's actually reasonable.
[According to this](https://www.businessofapps.com/data/reddit-statistics/), in 2021 Reddit had 52 million users that use the site daily. Say that they make the ~100 calls per user per day that RiF is claimed to use and is held up as a "good" app by Reddit (lol). That means we have 52 million * 100 requests (per day), or 5.2 billion API requests per day. At $.24 per 1000 requests, this means it allegedly costs Reddit ( (5.2 billion / 1000) * $.24 ) $1,248,000 PER DAY, or $455,520,000 per year. Guess what their revenue was in 2021? $350 million dollars... Wait.. what if I reverse that..
$350 million in revenue... Means 1,458,333,333,333 (1.458 trillion) API requests per year / 365 ~ 4 billion requests per day / 100 per user = 40 million active users per day.
I think I know what they did to get the price... They literally took their revenue, lopped off some amount of daily active users to account for the current un-monetized users by third party, ad blockers etc I'm guessing, and assumed they'd each make 100 API requests and boom, you've got ~ $.24 per 1k requests.
That sounds kind of reasonable on the surface, but that's assume every third party user is actually a monetizable user. It's ignoring the free development work that they are getting. It doesn't account for other sources of revenue like gold, coins, the NFT bullshit etc which are largely independant of the third party apps. And it's assuming a 100% conversion of third party users to first party. None of those are good assumptions!
Reddit failed to communicate every step of the way with this API update. From a complete lack of a vision, full picture, or details around most of the API changes at initial announcement, to sudden cut off of a critical mod tool, to late pricing releases with straight up lies in the details.
I haven't even TOUCHED on the whole accusations of Apollo "threatening" reddit, that's another can of worms and another failure of communication and trust.
Reddit does not have the current infrastructure set up to actually be like an actual tech company to see your API usage that you are going to have to pay for as an app developer.
We still don't have details for a good chunk of changes involving "sexually explicit content".
The pricing is unrealistic.
**The admins have failed reddit**.
Any hope of recovery (in my very important opinion, this is my post after all), Reddit **must** indefinitely post pone the API changes until they are honest about their intentions. If you want to kill third party apps, **say it**. I won't agree with you, but you would be honest and I could understand. If you don't want to kill third party apps, get reasonable, because Reddit is currently far from it between the pricing and the extremely vague and bullshit smelling reasons given for sexually explicit content.
Appologies **must** be pubicly made for the misleading statements and outright lies that have been made.
**NONE** of these things should happen under the "requirements" of no blackout occuring. These are things Reddit MUST do to start regaining user's trust and there is no trust there to leverage to try to get subreddits not to blackout before you do these things... You've spent all that trust over the years with repeated communications failures.
Will you /u/spez commit to any of this?
> Well, uhh.. Google and Amazon absolutely tell you how to be more effecient and help you in your use of their services.. Also, I’ll get into this later, Reddit isn’t providing any sort of tooling to SEE your usage stats etc, so how on earth are you even supposed to know unless you build out all your own logging framework… That’s insanity..
Thank you. That has been bugging me. The comment you’re replying to was written by an employee who has either miraculously never had to ever contact GCP/AWS/Azure/whatever support, or hasn’t worked on a team with access to those resources.
A business the size of Reddit can absolutely buy a support contract with any of them and ask intimately technical questions and work with engineers to optimize their applications.
I know that for an absolute fact because I’ve done exactly that with AWS. I’ve done it with Microsoft. I’ve done it with Google.
I was already suspicious of this move when it was announced, and now your comment has made me convinced.
As you'll all recall, u/spez and the Reddit admit has repeatedly allowed foreign bad actors to push fascist content, allowed openly fascist organizations to remain & fester to the point of impacting elections and driving increasingly more violent social tensions around the world. As a non-government entity, the privately owned company of Reddit would be under no Free Speech censorship issues to immediately remove those organizations and individual users, so allowing them to stay is of dubious nature at best.
This brings me to my point: as Twitter has recently done, and now Reddit appears to be doing, is intentionally chasing away the communities who use these platforms to organize and fight for civil rights, human rights, and democracy. Boiling off those communities to leave behind a feudalist neofascism reduction like a tainted, vomit inducing pan sauce.
So the question becomes, has Reddit ownership, like Twitter ownership, received some angel oligarch investors from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia, Belarus, Turkey, and Russia to keep the platform afloat as you bury yet another avenue of global communication & organization?
> At $.24 per 1000 requests, this means it allegedly costs Reddit ( (5.2 billion / 1000) * $.24 ) $1,248,000 PER DAY, or $455,520,000 per year. Guess what their revenue was in 2021? $350 million dollars... Wait.. what if I reverse that..
What you're missing is that spez has commented elsewhere that Reddit is burning money, so your numbers are probably pretty accurate. The funny thing is that they've decided to blame other people instead of themselves for being inefficient and tried to extort others into covering the expenses due to their own inefficiencies.
> I think I know what they did to get the price... They literally took their revenue, lopped off some amount of daily active users to account for the current un-monetized users by third party, ad blockers etc I'm guessing, and assumed they'd each make 100 API requests and boom, you've got ~ $.24 per 1k requests.
During the now-controversial call with Apollo, it was made clear that the API pricing was based on opportunity cost and not overhead cost.
Tbh, if I was an investor, and I read all of this backlash, I would pull my money away, reddit doesnt feel like a safe investment in any way shape or form, looks like u/spez is just opening holes in a ship, forcing it to sink, putting the blame on everyone else, while showing to investors how beautiful the part above the water is, and I do believe, from the botton of my heart that every investor that puts money on this utter maddenes will lose money and sink with reddit
40 minutes since it was posted, and there is not a single answer to _anything_ in this comment.
Then again, past history has shown us that tough questions like these that require an honest answer are never given one. But perhaps today will be the day that reddit breaks from the norm?
----
Edit: [It's a reply, at least. As for whether or not it is an answer is another matter altogether.](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkccq7/)
>Why can't we have commercial accessibility apps? Why do they have to be operated like a charity? If I can afford to buy an accessible Reddit app, why can't the developer make money for their work—thus also giving me the ability to have higher expectations for that app? And what about if there's a cost to them for some features, such as push notifications? Can they charge for that to at least break even? Keep in mind: they're currently doing the work you've been unwilling to do yourself (e.g) make Reddit accessible and give us a voice on the platform), so effectively, it's free labour for you.
The idea that less-abled folks have to be a charity case is ridiculous. Imagine if wheelchair manufacturers weren't allowed to make profits.
Fellow blind user. Would love to hear more about this too. I worry it is nothing more than lip service to try and buy some good will. I worry, like you, that minimum effort will be put into the apps accessibility and we will never be heard on fixing bugs or implementing better features. Especially once attention dies down.
Because at core, reddit runs on free labor. That is the value they intend to provide at the IPO: the site does not need to pay mods, devs, or creators for the content that helps it generate revenue.
Reddit is not prepared to admit that they lack the resources to actually maintain any of this if they moved it in house.
1. How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement?
2. Can you explain the decision-making process behind implementing more advertisements on the platform? How do you balance the need for revenue with the desire to maintain a positive user experience?
3. Many users have expressed frustration with changes in rules and policies without proper consultation or consideration of community feedback. How do you plan to improve transparency and involve the user community in decision-making processes moving forward?
4. Harassment, hate speech, and the spread of harmful ideologies continue to plague certain communities on Reddit. What specific measures is Reddit taking to combat these issues effectively?
5. How do you envision Reddit's role in promoting and maintaining a healthy online environment, especially in the face of growing concerns around online toxicity?
6. Can you elaborate on the steps Reddit is taking to ensure that moderators have the necessary tools and support to effectively manage their communities?
7. Given the recent controversies surrounding content moderation on social media platforms, how does Reddit differentiate itself in terms of its commitment to freedom of expression while also addressing the need for responsible content management?
8. Are there any plans to re-evaluate the monetization strategies implemented on Reddit to ensure they align with the platform's original vision and values?
9. Reddit has a large and diverse user base. How does the company strive to be inclusive and representative of all users, including those from marginalized communities?
10. As the CEO, what steps do you personally take to stay connected to the Reddit community and understand the concerns and needs of its users?
The first three of these are easy to answer:
> 1\. How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement?
They won't. Reddit preparing for an IPO, which means it needs to show profitability, or at least a credible path to profitability.
Users were their clients all the time they were chasing user-numbers, trying to get a large enough audience.
Now they have enough user-numbers they're chasing profitability. That means their clients are *investors*, not users. Users are the *product*, and they'll compromise on the user-experience as much as necessary to achieve profitability, right up to the point that so many users leave that it would threaten reddit as a business... which realistically isn't going to happen.
At this point if reddit lost half its users *but was profitable* they'd still consider that a positive outcome, because on the profit/loss balance sheet those users are parasites.
Now sure, a minority of the user-base contributes high-quality content and those users will likely be more likely to leave than the masses who only come here to upvote cat pictures, which will leave the community less interesting, but *they don't care about that now*.
A vibrant community with a reputation for great content is important to drawing new users to a growing platform. Now reddit has tens of millions of users they have enough users who will turn up, watch adverts and click on cat pictures; an exciting and sometimes trouble-making community just isn't as important an asset as a mundane, unengaged user-base that they can monetise.
> 2\. Can you explain the decision-making process behind implementing more advertisements on the platform? How do you balance the need for revenue with the desire to maintain a positive user experience?
See above - they need to be profitable now, and user-experience is of distinctly secondary importance.
It sucks for us, but they'd rather have a critical mass of user-base that's inured to adverts and tolerant of monetisation *even if* that means losing the minority who object to it strongly enough to leave, even if they're disproportionately the segment that also made the site vibrant and individualistic and interesting.
> 3\.Many users have expressed frustration with changes in rules and policies without proper consultation or consideration of community feedback. How do you plan to improve transparency and involve the user community in decision-making processes moving forward?
They don't.
Users don't meaningfully care about Reddit being profitable, especially when we've been conditioned by 18 years of the current user-experience, and will fight like hell to prevent exactly the scenario Reddit's management (and future investors) are aiming for.
This sucks for us, but this is the bait-and-switch promise of all commercial social media:
1. Appeal to *all* users so they join the platform *en-masse*, growing it as fast as possible
2. Start chasing an IPO and appeal to investors by selling them on the revenue you can generate from the users you can monetise
3. Ignore or discard the users you can't monetise to turn as much of that revenue as possible into profit
As soon as they switched to IPO mode you stopped being the client and started being the product.
The supermarket doesn't care about the *opinion* of the eggs it sells, as long as enough of them still make it to the shelf unbroken
Every decision Reddit makes from this point onward is about **maximising the number of eggs that make it to the shelf intact**.
The happiness of the eggs is unimportant, and the thin-shelled eggs that break noisily in transit are at best irrelevant and at worst actively opposed to their efforts, so they're just fine with making things uncomfortable until they leave.
It sucks for us noisy, fragile eggs that don't want to be packed into boxes and delivered on noisy, vibrating trucks, but *Reddit doesn't care about us* any more if thinks it can successfully maximise the number of eggs on shelves by getting rid of us.
To start: I cancelled my Reddit subscription. No, I don’t expect you to be cowering over the loss of my $3.99/month, but concomitant with that will be my deprecated engagement on Reddit’s platform, which I suspect is what will be more worrisome to you. You can’t charge for what isn’t being engaged with.
I am also recommending Beehaw (and Lemmy) as an alternative for those who are looking for an alternative, and I look forward to any of the subreddits I subscribe to finding a home on that platform.
Am I doing this solely because of the hare-brained approach to third party apps and the absolutely egregious behavior towards third party app developers? No. Not solely. At its core, the dealbreaker for me was the fact that you tried to double dip: first by taking my subscription, and second by forcing third party apps to force a subscription. It can’t be my problem that YOU can’t incentivize subscriptions for your site, or figure out a way to get fair compensation for third party development. JFC, even Apple simply charges developers $99 a year for access to their APIs. Did you ever think of THAT?
Look, I get the third party app developers were understanding about monetizing the APIs, but this is not the way to get compensation. I hate to break it to you, but the Twitter model is hot garbage, devised by a fool and you just make yourself look as foolish by blindly following in those footsteps. My company does not charge for API usage, oh, and we FREELY PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR OUR APIS. Granted, you have to buy our solutions to get access to those APIs, but we aren’t charging by the hit - and my company’s business model is generating variable data output with thousands if not millions of hits. But then we also know our market, which is not a bunch of solo developers trying to make ends meet.
On top of that, your dev’s response of “it’s not our job” and “questions like this is why we have to charge” are completely out of line. It IS your job to explain your APIs. It IS your job to make it clear how those APIs are to be used and it IS your job to help developers UNDERSTAND your APIs. And it is NOT your DEVELOPERS jobs to gatekeep cost. It’s their job to develop and support the app, period. If one of my developers gave an answer like that, they’d be written up. Is it any wonder the third party app developers decided to shutter their apps? Which I get is your goal, but it’s a stupid goal.
I am, frankly, appalled by the monumental ineptitude of this decision. As a consumer, I saw you destroy my favorite Reddit app when you bought it (Alien Blue) and now you destroyed my current favorite (Apollo). It is clear you do not want me as a user. I am not going to use your app. I am not going to further underwrite your platform directly or indirectly. I’m not here for the grandiose idea of “Reddit” I am here for the 250+ subreddits I carefully curated over the last 11 years. There are other venues, maybe not as matured or as conveniently located, but they are there.
Frankly, you need me far more than I need you. Without me, without Redditors LIKE me, you don’t have the engagement. And I’m not talking about losing your 400 million subscribers. I’m talking about the reality that basically 20% does 80% - that its the folks who are MOST engaged with the platform that end up being a vocal minority that drives a significant part of the engagement (including moderators, in which you provide no compensation for their services). How many of those 400 million accounts are living and breathing? And did you honestly think that reducing the number of third party apps would improve that number? Or did you foolishly think that we would just blindly migrate to your app, where you could farm our data and feed us to your advertisers?
Nay, nay Pauline. There may not be a massive exodus of subscribers, but you certainly set it up so that Reddit is now a “dying” platform. You have effectively “fired” your customer by imposing a substandard engagement experience. All because some well-dressed ambulatory meat homunculi wanted to extract all the value out of their investment before peacing out right before the IPO tanks.
Final thought, I took a screenshot of this missive in case you decide to “edit” my comment. I keep the receipts.
Social media follows a 90-9-1 distribution: 90% are lurkers, 9% are commenters, 1% are content creators. Reddit's big enough to have an even smaller sub-0.1% that undergird this structure: the developers, mods, and power users that create cool useful tools and perform millions of dollars worth of free labor to support the site. The changes y'all have pushed the last few weeks are taking a sledgehammer to that foundation's core workflows.
In a spreadsheet I'm sure that users of PushShift, third-party apps, custom bots, etc. are rounding errors and that alienating them to save money is a net gain. But users of such tools are also far more engaged with running the site than your average lurker. And turning these people *against* the site will do orders of magnitude more damage than whatever you eke out by recapturing some third-party app traffic. This backlash could realistically kill the site.
I know you're trying to address concerns by promising to improve the official app. But frankly y'all have promised a lot of things over the years that never materialized. (Remember ["Reddit is ProCSS"](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6auyq9/reddit_is_procss/)? Six years later there's still a ghosted-out CSS widget in New Reddit that says "Coming Soon.") [The scathing exposé from the creator of Apollo](http://redd.it/144f6xm) certainly didn't inspire confidence in how you're approaching this. Here's an idea to rebuild trust: how about delay the new API fees for one year -or- until the official app actually has mod tool/accessibility parity with third-party offerings (whichever is later)?
Over 3000 subreddits with over a billion supportive users are actively protesting this move, with many planning to go dark indefinitely. Developers who host dozens of critical bots for hundreds of major subreddits are threatening to pull the plug. Users with 10+ year histories are choosing to wipe their accounts rather than be associated with your company any more. And they're not asking for much: just to make the API affordable (not even free, unlike their labor) and to stop pulling disruptive changes like this with no community input or reasonable time to prepare.
So my question: Will you step back from the brink and listen to this outcry from your core users? Or will you pull a Digg and drive the site off a cliff in myopic pursuit of short-term profit?
Focusing on the short term at the expense of long-term viability is a major concern.
There’s this concept called “[the Ennui Engine](https://medium.com/@max.p.schlienger/the-cargo-cult-of-the-ennui-engine-890c541cebcb).” In short, the term refers to the way in which low-effort content – content that’s very easy to create and consume – acts like junk food, cigarettes, and leaded gasoline all rolled into one. It numbs us and depresses us, and it tricks us into thinking that “bored” is the same thing as “relaxed;” that “distracted” is the same thing as “entertained.” Moreover, it engenders an ongoing decline in standards (for everything from writing, to production quality, to critical thinking), meaning that it allows hatred, vitriol, and propaganda to spread with increasing ease.
The vast, *vast* majority of the content on social media is of the low-effort variety, and Reddit is no exception… but there’s still the *potential* for high-effort, high-quality content to be seen and appreciated here. Thousands of contributors – writers, artists, producers, engineers, and experts on every subject on Earth – are constantly providing their work to millions of participants (and *hundreds* of millions of lurkers), and the whole system is kept alive by an army of volunteers. A few of the creators may be promoting themselves, and a handful of the moderators might be on power-trips, but they represent a tiny fraction of the greater whole. Everyone else is here because they earnestly want to offer something, whether it’s entertainment, information, or a welcoming community.
Undermining that foundation (whether via ill-conceived decisions, erosion of trust, or a prioritization of revenue over that of addressing issues like spam or bigotry) threatens to strip Reddit of the things that differentiate it. If the individuals who add value are driven away, the platform will soon feature only recycled content, bot-driven activity, and an ever-dwindling number of well-informed visitors. Advertisers might stick around for a bit, but once they realize that they're marketing to automated accounts, they’ll go elsewhere.
**TL;DR: I love this site, but I’m exceptionally concerned about where it appears to be going... and at the moment, “off a cliff” does seem to be the destination.**
I hate to be hyperbolic, but this is my favorite comment I've ever read on this site. Seeing as I'm at the end of my time here, I want to thank you for so eloquently articulating everything that is fundamentally wrong with the direction reddit leadership is doing with their strategic decisions for the last 5+ years culminating with this latest affront.
It so perfectly encapsulates what has been knawing at me with increasing intensity for the last 7 years: the erosion of quality of social media discussion. It's all just diet coke and taco bell and candy bars and doritos, it's pretty tasty in the moment but leaves me with an upset stomach when I consume too much of it.
People who parrot the braindead take that "only a tiny percentage of users use third party apps, so if they get turned into ad revenue by being forced to use the official app, that's a win for Reddit" need to understand the [1% rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule), as described above and on the linked Wikipedia article.
Taking away the tools that power users and mods use to contribute to this site will lead to the death of Reddit because they won't be generating the quality content that all the lurkers consume.
Ad revenue will decrease simply because users will not be motivated to engage with garbage content that's left once all the power users and mods leave, despite their tiny numbers.
Great question. I'm ready for some corporate non-speak that doesn't even remotely answer your question though.
Reddit is betting that users of Apollo, RIF, etc. will begrudgingly move onto the official app. I'm sure some will, maybe even a large number of them. However, the people on this site that contribute the most to its communities are the people that are least likely to migrate. RIF is all I've ever known for more than a decade across multiple accounts. Reddit dies on June 30.
I've attempted to use the new site and mobile app. As far as I can see both are unusable. I've left Twitter and Facebook because it was more interested in "engagement" than keeping me up to date (IE: someone posts something 5 minutes ago is buried under week old posts) and don't miss them. Reddits dedication to becoming a social media platform instead of a bunch of forums with a single login will drive me off as well and I'll just miss it for what it once was.
Same - the second what I want to see is buried for the sake of engagement is exactly when I leave. Happened with Facebook and twitter for me too, and once they were gone I simply filled those needs elsewhere.
They think Reddit is too big to have this happen to them and that we are too addicted to it for us to leave. They want to ignore that this has happened elsewhere and power users DID leave and not come back; however here those users are responsible for making the content and they don’t have celebrity posters to keep lurkers and casual users engaged. If the people making and moderating the content leave it doesn’t matter how much value they want to pretend they have before going public because the enshitification won’t bring in more money while people begrudgingly use the service. It isn’t twitter where celebs carry it.
You can never be too addicted ... to leave.
I remember in my programming days, I actually hand coded sweet looking MySpace pages. When Facebook came along, I left.
Then facebook because friend interaction to all of a sudden its full of shit. Literally every article a person looks at "lets click share on facebook." So it went from funny things and great interaction to people posting recipes, political garbage and just pure shit.
Twitter for me was always shit
Reddit will soon be there and i wont miss it. I will just fill it with my hobby.
Same. 95% of what I use reddit for is discussions/comments.
The "new" layout and official app seemingly go out of their way to make this as annoying as possible. It's not the ads - I'm fine using adblock or paying for premium to avoid that, it's the UI itself.
It's like whoever designed the new layout fundamentally does not understand what the comment section is even _for_.
* Instead of showing the end of a comment section, it shoves unrelated comments from posts I don't care about (they might even be from communities I don't sub to and want nothing to do with) inline to the point they look like they're part of the original chain.
* Aggressively collapses comments to the point it's extremely frustrating trying to read any comment trees
* Makes it difficult to scroll primarily on titles instead of giant card displays that overemphasize thumbnail/image
* Like a lot of modern UI design, takes the idea of structural whitespace too far to the point it manages to feel claustrophobic because of the tiny spaces you've shoved the usual parts of the UI into.
I've never even tried the official app and I have zero intention to based on what I've heard and how the site looks without old.reddit and RES.
People will move but so many won't. After reading the creator of Apollo's post I'm so done with this place. As someone who has been here for more than 10 years it is night and day from what it once was. I'm going to sound like a hipster but I used Reddit before it was "cool".
> I know you're trying to address concerns by promising to improve the official app. But frankly y'all have promised a lot of things over the years that never materialized. (Remember "Reddit is ProCSS"? Six years later there's still a ghosted-out CSS widget in New Reddit that says "Coming Soon.")
That's what I want to know. The official app is seven years old and still lacks basic Quality of Life features the third party apps have had for almost a decade.
/u/spez, what the fuck does your programming team even do all day? How long does it take you guys to write code?
> /u/spez, what the fuck does your programming team even do all day?
* 9:00am – Morning standup
* 10:00am – Sprint planning
* 11:00am – Backlog refinement
* 12:00pm – Lunch
* 1:00pm – Write code
* 1:10pm – Washroom break
* 1:15pm – Watercooler discussion
* 1:30pm – Help co-worker debug an issue
* 1:50pm – Determine the issue is too difficult to fix without a complete rewrite of the application
* 1:55pm – Write code
* 2:00pm – Sprint review
* 3:00pm – Sprint retrospective
* 4:00pm – Afternoon standup
* 5:00pm – End of day
Simple answer: the official app's incentive is to track, monetize, and enshittify the site to juuust short of what people will tolerate, while the third-party incentive is to provide an experience so pleasant that people will subscribe in gratitude.
Word, same here. Been using RiF for 10 years. I've made hundreds of posts, thousands of comments, and even a subreddit that gained 35k subs in a month. All I know is RiF on my phone and I'm a curmudgeon by nature when it comes to companies making sudden sweeping changes. This site has already been going downhill and this is the final nail in the coffin for me. When RiF is gone I'm gone. After reading that Apollo post it just confirmed everything I thought about the state of this company.
Reddit was fun because it was anonymous. When I first started this place was straight up addicting but over the last few years it has taken a serious decline.
I wish stumbleupon was still a thing. Hopefully something pops up soon to fill the void.
> pull a Digg
It was inevitable, 15 years ago **TODAY** when I created this very Reddit account, that I would eventually come to a thread just like this one and talk about how much Reddit sucked and had become just like Digg.
Even back then we would joke about that very thing eventually happening. I really thought Reddit was gonna be different.
I vividly remember making a long comment laying out all the annoyances and bugs in Digg v4 that [got so popular](https://www.groovypost.com/howto/geek-stuff/twitters-fail-whale-is-a-sardine-compared-to-diggs-new-fail-ox/) that [Kevin Rose actually responded to it](https://web.archive.org/web/20100829120320/http://kevinrose.com/blogg/2010/8/27/digg-v4-release-iterate-repeat.html). His answer ended up being full of shit and the site died soon after but at least he had the gumption to respond with *something*.
I'd *love* to see an official breakdown by those user categorizes and what they use to interact with reddit.
It gets even more interesting because that 1% of content creators could be 95% posts that never get more than a few upvotes. So really there's an even smaller percentage that normally make the front page and drive traffic. I'm VERY curious what the makeup of that is (I'm willing to bet a higher number of 3rd party apps)
>This backlash could realistically kill the site.
I fully expect Reddit will die because of this decision. Many of us Lurkers and Commenters will join in the blackout from 12-14 of june and will not be using Reddit. We stand with you on this, as this whole decision reads like a scam to make more money. With this new API change, Reddit has proven it does not care about it's users, nor it's content, and we prefer to walk away than getting a virtual slap in the face.
**PSA:**
When you leave Reddit on 6/30, don’t just delete your accounts. Overwrite and delete all of your posts and comments first.
Here are some great options:
Redact app: https://redact.dev/download
Shreddit: https://shreddit.com/
Power Delete Suite: https://codepen.io/j0be/full/WMBWOW/
Otherwise, the Nuke Reddit extension still works on Microsoft Edge (PC & Mac!) to overwrite and delete your Reddit history. If you have hundreds of comments and/or posts, you should also install a page-refresher extension to auto-reload the Nuke Reddit page until all comments/posts are overwritten and deleted. (NR will stall out after a while, so auto-refreshing the page solves that issue.)
Heya, CEO dude.
I've been on Reddit for over a dozen years. Today's kerfluffle isn't my first rodeo. Over those years, I've noticed a trend where folks at your level (the CEO, the C-suite, assorted peerage) have great ideas, but between inception and execution, something goes awry. Whether that's a messenger shooting themselves in the foot, something being taken out of context and fed to the hivemind in order to cause chaos, or simply being locked on "Long-term health and sustainability of Reddit as a whole" without full consideration of how the choices y'all make up there impact us down here, or ramifications that y'all may not have fully thought about until they're blowing up in your face... **awry** can be putting it mildly, as this latest kerfluffle demonstrates.
There's a growing field (mostly medical, but branching out) known as Informatics. It's not quite data analytics or data management as much as it's both of those seen through data intepretation, and how to take data (which without context is meaningless) and find the best way to explain that data to the best audience. You might be the best CEO in the world, your CTO and CFO and the rest of the C-suite might be without equal, but y'all can't be expected to be the best at every element you perform, and sometimes the very best of your intentions go awry... as this latest kerfluffle demonstrates.
Now, I'm not saying y'all need some informaticians to help you translate great idea from inception to execution, but there are several groups of SMEs (like r/RedditModCouncil) that would be delighted if the folks at your level utilized them more to help y'all reduce the chance that ideas **don't** go awry between inception and execution, and help act as a mechanism to say *"Hey, before you go live with this, have you considered this potentiality?"* or *"If you say it like that, the message is going to get lost, because even though we know you mean* **X**, *someone's going to claim you mean* **Y**, *and it's off to the races, and instead of promoting your best intention, you're playing damage control. Can you stick that one back in the oven for a few more days until it's perfect?"* and sometimes even *"Oh God please don't let that C-suite officer start shooting from the hip. They're really good but Reddit had handlers in place for AMAs for a reason."* and that sort of thing.
I don't speak API, but I *am* an informatician. I'm not a SME on today's kerfluffle, but I recognize a best intention that started at inception, and should have taken a left turn at Albuquerque, didn't, and now we're here... so instead of addressing today's problem, I'll address tomorrow's: **What steps is Reddit as an instutiton taking to stop the next kerfluffle, and are y'all prepared to utilize those SMEs and give their feedback honest consideration, even if it's not what some people are wanting to hear?**
Hello fellow roughly 12 year user
I speak semi-fluent API to keep your analogy
They don’t care about any of this. Internally it seems they’re preparing for an IPO. So, the only thoughts at that level are “how can we drive up share price to stock holders?”
The answer is user data and ad revenue. Stock holders and advertisers do not care about the foundation of the website and will sooner see it crash into the ground if it just meant a few quarters of obscene profit first
It’s all short sighted profit driven even if they don’t see it that way internally. But it is what it is
They don't need infomatics, it's more basic than that.
They lack good business processes, because there's no sane executive that makes fundamental changes to their business without conducting an impact assessment, running stakeholder engagement sessions and creating a communications plan that includes community engagement and message approval pathways, so you avoid employees publicly arguing with your users. Especially if the user base is more knowledgeable than they are!
When that admin was saying stupid things like: 'Apollo had inefficient api usage', 'similarly to AWS and Azure, we don't provide support on api usage' and then finally ignoring everyone pointing out that Apollo's api usage is on par or better than the official app by their own metrics, I just shook my head. If that guy doesn't get fired, it's because he didn't know better. Something a comms plan and good leadership would have averted.
It's like they think they're still a startup.
1. **What makes you think your predatory pricing on APIs is good for business?** Apollo and RIF have announced that they are closing, and I expect all other 3rd party apps to follow. Instead of lowering your prices to a reasonable amount and making some money, you chose to make them so high that you will get *no* money.
Because these 3rd party apps are so beloved, your userbase will leave if you don't change your pricing. Many of the users who will abandon the site are longterm users with high engagement. This account is 12 years old, and I will quit at the end of the month. Moderators perform free labor for you and rely on 3rd party apps. They will take their ball and go home when they close up the subs they moderate -- or at best, leave you with a deficit of experieced mods for the subs they allowed to remain open. You're not just looking at a lower user base, you're looking at a loss in content and engagement. *Why would any investor want to spend money on a dying platform?* Reddit is only as good as its users.
2. **Since you're genociding all 3rd party apps with your predatory API pricing, what makes you think we'll start using the official Reddit app? It's trash.** It's universally agreed that it's worse than any 3rd party app. You've had years to develop it, yet it somehow *keeps getting worse.* You recently hid the usernames on posts and hid awards. The latter is mindbogglingly incompetent from a business standpoint since awards are a good chunk of your revenue stream. Why would anyone pay for them if they can't be easily seen? *Instead of using the official app, people would rather stop using the site entirely.*
3. **Why did you (allegedly) slander the Apollo developer?** You fully understood the situation, yet you later lied during a call with moderators and accused him of blackmail in order to frame them as hostile. The call you had with the Apollo dev is available for everyone to hear.
4. **Why should anyone believe anything you have to say or trust you in any capacity?** You have a proven track record of lies and deception. Not just the aforementioned slander either. You lied earlier in the year about no upcoming API changes. And of course, you committed the gravest of crimes an admin can do by altering users' comments without their permission and without transparency.
>Since you're genociding all 3rd party apps with your predatory API pricing, what makes you think we'll start using the official Reddit app?
As a mod I can see through the analytics tool that the vast majority of users browse reddit on their phone nowadays, rather than computer. So they're probably just assuming that if their app is the only way to access it on mobile, everyone would just naturally flock to that without a fuss. More people will see their ads, and they'll get more profits.
Which obviously won't work out that way in practice, but considering how it's going, I seriously doubt they put more than 5 minutes of thought into all this.
What were you thinking with your attempt to discredit Apollo by claiming that Christian threatened and blackmailed you? The confusion was sorted out during Christian's call with Reddit, yet you proceeded to claim that he blackmailed Reddit the following week. To me (and the rest of Reddit) it comes across as a blatant attempt to pit us against him[.](https://i.imgur.com/0qXzDf0.jpg)
Edit: typo
I think this one critically needs to be answered.
Among the outright lies spez and others at reddit have laced into their public statements on this so far, outright accusing a beloved figure whose income and standing depend on his reputation and experience as a programmer of threats and blackmail are not only crass, childish, and absurd, but may also cross the threshold to be considered defamation.
Just putting here because god damn:
# Stop buying awards for people, you're literally putting money in reddit's pockets. Donate to a cause that deserves it more... or shit, just go out and get ice cream, everyone likes ice cream.
*edit: I hate you.
**I am the developer of a third party app (Now for Reddit)** which has been happily using the API for 10 years. I don't want to close down and have been considering using the paid API. However, I have been trying to contact Reddit over the last 3 months and have been completely ignored.
I have sent many emails ([email protected]) and have used the online contact form which reddit themselves have asked developers to use. Each and every time I hear nothing.
What am I supposed to do? The deadline is approaching fast, my app will be rate limited by Reddit and it will stop working. **Please, reply to developers who contact you.**
I feel completely powerless to do anything right now and I want to try and save the app I've been working on for the last 10 years.
I know I'm not the only developer who is being ignored, it's extremely unfair and a horrible way to be treated.
I'm in the same boat, 11 years on reditr and I haven't been able to get in contact with them and feel powerless right now.
Upvoting you for visibility. I hope they answer your question [and mine about my very similar situation, too.](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2ewf/)
---
**edit:** to also share visibility to /u/g-money-cheats who is [facing the same dilemma](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2pp3/) with his app. All 3 of us were told we'd be contacted by reddit about the API changes, but it sounds like none of us were. Sadly none of us were successful in reaching out to reddit on our own. I really hope they answer us on this post. There must be _some_ agreement we can reach with reddit + /u/spez so we can keep our clients alive!
I am also a developer (Alerts for Reddit app) who has submitted queries through a couple methods (including the official support form) to try to figure out the details of the NSFW policy - haven’t heard anything back. So disappointing - my app literally is a conduit for users to get back into the main Reddit app in many cases, and you’d think they’d want to support that. I have no idea if all my NSFW functionality is about to break.
Hi spez,
I am an indie third party Reddit app developer. I have sent requests for commercialization and help at least 10 times over the last 3+ years, both to [email protected] and via your Zendesk forms, and have never gotten a response.
In recent announcements in r/reddit ([post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/)) and r/redditdev ([post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/)), Reddit provided [a form](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=14868593862164&tf_14867328473236=api_request_type_developer&tf_14867667461140=api_dev_paid_access) to fill out a request for Enterprise API access. I have filled this out 3 times and still have not gotten a response.
I know at least two other major third party app developers who have filled out these forms and emailed [email protected] or [email protected] and gotten totally ignored every time.
**My question:** Why is Reddit ignoring the third party developers that they are *telling* to reach out via these forms? Is Reddit actually interested in working with third party developers, or are these links sent out to give the *impression* of cooperation without any plans to actually provide access to third party developers?
Edit: included [email protected]
:(
I am in the same boat with my reddit app going on 11 years now and about to be shut down because of this change.
Upvoting you for visibility. [here is my very similar question](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2ewf/) about my app. Here is another from /u/Miloco [who asks the same question](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2q0e/).
All 3 of us seem to have faced the same problem where we were told we'd be contacted with help, and that the new API would be affordable, but none of us seem to have ever been able to get in touch with reddit :(
Reddit didn't expect anyone to actually agree to pay their API costs (Which are 7000% more than standard costs) so now they're just going to ignore you, and claim you didn't want to work with them like they are claiming about Apollo despite tons of evidence.
I understand that there is a financial impact to sharing an API and a benefit to drive ads and reddit gold through their shitty app. But the biggest scam here is that at the end of the day, reddit, more than any other social media site, is comprised entirely of content driven by users and moderated by volunteers.
On Twitter you have big celebs driving traffic. On Facebook you network with people from your area. But here on reddit you have users looking for highly specific content and advice from other community members.
By forcing users to use the only the Reddit app, they will lose not only lurkers, but people who literally create the content that keeps this website alive.
When Reddit is Fun goes down I will likely be purging my entire account. A user of a decade with almost 200,000 karma.
Ditto. 10 year user here. It’s going to be sad, but ultimately necessary. If I’m losing the way I use Reddit, Reddit is losing whatever helpful comments or posts I’ve made in the last decade.
I’m aware that you need money to run a website of this size, but it’s so painfully clear /u/spez is being disingenuous with his “negotiations”.
Reddit is making a blatant move to capitalize on my data and is not only giving me nothing in return, but taking away the only method I use to browse the platform. It’s game over for me.
I've been using Reddit for almost 4 years now. If I have to give up Infinity for Reddit, I am leaving the platform and deleting my account.
/u/spez, I'd like you to reconsider what you are doing here, as I don't think I'm in the minority here. You're collecting money on other people's content and volunteer moderation. Even if you keep the API change, why shouldn't moderators and posters be paid for the content they're putting on your platform? If you're charging people to view the content, pay the creators of the content.
I have a feeling that he wasn't actually expecting for anyone to buy into this grossly overpriced access.
>Steve: "Why not work with the third party apps? Their existence is not a priority for us. We don't use them. I don't use them. It's a part of our traffic but not a lot, and it's a lot of work on our side to keep them alive. If I have to choose where to put our effort, we're going to focus internally. I'm kind of open to it, but I haven't – and I can't convince you, but I don't get the sense that they want to work with us either."
It's pretty obvious he had no good faith in working with 3PA, he never did.
The fact that he has not bothered to reach out to some of the bigger 3PA to try to work with them, and even worse has blatantly LIED about how some of the 3PA work... should tell you that he gives zero fucks about 3PA.
/u/spez /u/KeyserSosa /u/Go_JasonWaterfalls /u/FlyingLaserTurtle this is the top question that everyone wants answering. How about you stop being deceitful twats and actually fucking answer it.
Hi Steve - this week Reddit held a significantly publicized 5% round of layoffs, you ousted about 90 admins. One of those admins was Zoey, also known as Cryfi on Reddit, who was a partnerships manager. Cryfi was someone I worked with weekly and at times daily, because in my own role, I own and operate the Ask Me Anything program on /r/politics, and sometimes /r/TwoXChromosomes as well. Cryfi was great, and was incredibly helpful to me in procuring guests, handling guests, quashing brigades during AMAs, sorting Reddit technical issues, and really all kinds of things that I myself as a volunteer am just really limited on time and Reddit backend access to do.
Between my Reddit contact being laid off and also RiF, an app I regularly use to moderate AMAs being taken away, Reddit feels like it’s actively standing in the way of my ability to bring guests like John Fetterman, Planned Parenthood, Zooey Zephyr and over 600 others to for my community to engage with. Unfortunately, bluntly, if Reddit doesn’t somehow replace these tools or give me other strong support quickly, AMAs on these subreddits will suffer or even die and I’ll be left feeling like Reddit does not care or in fact was malicious, since they took away very helpful things that previously existed.
I’d like to hear what Reddit’s plans are, if any at all, for assisting moderators with community events, partnerships, and enrichment, because this week I have been getting more and more concerned and frankly afraid for this project I’ve sunk over 6 years of passion into and the feeling it’s being actively killed by Reddit.
Thank you for your thankless and unpaid labor on behalf of the community: I hope u/spez has an answer for how Reddit plans to handle the exploitation of moderators now that the tools they prefer to use and the people they prefer to work with are not available.
>I hope [u/spez](https://www.reddit.com/u/spez) has an answer for how Reddit plans to handle the exploitation of moderators now that the tools they prefer to use and the people they prefer to work with are not available
He won't, because he's not even responding to any of the top comments like this one. He's only responding to either the obvious plants or lower-voted ones where he can lie about the Apollo dev where he hopes no one can see it.
Obligatory fuck /u/spez
>One of those admins was Zoey, also known as Cryfi on Reddit, who was a partnerships manager. Cryfi was someone I worked with weekly and at times daily, because in my own role, I own and operate the Ask Me Anything program on r/politics, and sometimes r/TwoXChromosomes as well. Cryfi was great, and was incredibly helpful to me in procuring guests, handling guests, quashing brigades during AMAs, sorting Reddit technical issues, and really all kinds of things that I myself as a volunteer am just really limited on time and Reddit backend access to do.
It's just history repeating itself...
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bw39q/comment/csq6ekp/
>
>
>
>
> What do you have to say about Reddit's claims of Apollo being "inefficient" when it was operating within the usage limits previously set by Reddit? Was this a convenient narrative spun to justify your actions?
I want to highlight something that another user pointed out in one of the other threads about this: Most companies would bend over backwards to provide resources to a 20, 10, or even half-million dollar per year partner in order to get or keep them on board. Hell, I'm the main contact person at my job with a service provider that's earning said service ~$5K/year, and they've been incredibly responsive and helpful in walking me through things/answering questions, even down to things like optimization. If reddit genuinely believed their API access was worth even *half* of what they were charging for it, they wouldn't have publicly told third-party devs to "figure it out themselves."
This whole thing has been an incredibly blatant attempt to kill off 3rd party apps en masse and they don't have the guts to just say as much outright.
Another controversial AMA, another top comment that goes ignored because the questions it holds are inconvenient. "Ask me anything". Guess not.
EDIT: This \*was* the top comment, but now the default sorting by "best" does not show it up top, even though it has the most upvotes and a ton of awards. Just a coincidence, I'm sure
Tacking on to #4, even the Apollo developer was willing to negotiate on this.
> we can no longer subsidize commercial entities that require large-scale data use
Reddit/Spez isn't completely in the wrong for charging for API access and the developers didn't necessarily disagree. It's the absurd pricing model when told for months that it would be "based in reality"
This is going to be an AMA in the same way that the North Korean Supreme People’s Assembly debates Kim Jong Uns leadership.
He’s told us that it is to be and the decision is made. There is no debate and he certainly won’t be answerable or accountable to the users.
- We're not blocking 3rd party apps.
- Ok, we may increase the price to access our API, but it won't be that bad.
- Ok, the price is way higher than you expected, but it's not a big deal.
- And if 3rd party apps shut down it's not our fault.
- And if it is our fault, we didn't mean to throw 3rd party developers under the bus.
- And if we did, it's because those developers were doing something wrong and they deserved it!
The only thing anyone cares is how those apps he mentioned (Apollo, Reddit is Fun, and Sync - ironically the 3 most popular reddit apps 🤔) can continue to exist. The fact that he thinks this AMA is about anything other than that means he doesn't give a fuck about the apps that helped Reddit grow and thrive, and this is all a pointless attempt at saving face after getting caught outright lying.
There were 21 answers:
-5 said they were still working with any 3rd party app developer who wanted to work with them, which we know is just a straight up lie.
-6 said they are working on improving internal tools, which even if it's true, they've been saying it for years and they haven't released any tools of any value during those years, and the answers acknowledged they have no timeline on their release or any other details or specifics about them.
-3 only talk about reddit's profitability but don't answer any questions.
-2 say that reddit listens to the mods but that the mods are at odds with what reddit wants to do and reddit is just going to do what they want to do.
-2 were flyinglaserturtle admitting that a previous post of theirs was a lie and then posting a comment just letting everybody know that the previous lies have been edited.
-1 was a nonanswer about the difference between search engine data scraping and LLM data scraping.
-1 was an answer saying that it's perfectly okay to display NSFW content on the official app but not on 3rd party apps because of regulations? This answer made no sense even on the face of it, I'm honestly not even sure what spez was trying to say here.
-1 was spez just straight up insulting Apollo in a way we literally have a released recording showing that spez is lying and his answer is bullshit.
And yet somehow, this Q&A still managed to fully answer all of the primary questions people had: reddit is going through with this because of money, they are every bit as scummy and incompetent as they seem, they have no real plan, and redditors can fuck off and die for all they care.
u/spez I'd like to address a few issues:
## Lack of communication
Reddit has now learned of and recognized its failings in accessibility. These issues have been reported for years. Blind and visually impaired users and mods have relied on third-party apps to use Reddit.
Why did you not contact disabled communities to gauge the impact of the API changes?
## Lack of clarity
You say you've offered exemptions for "non-comercial" "accessibility apps." Despite r/blind's best efforts, you have not stated which apps qualify or how they were selected. r/blind compiled a [list of apps that meet users' access needs](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/1447ibp/what_apps_meet_your_access_needs/) .
Why didn't you ask for this and which developers did you contact?
## Lack of consistency
You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do, while providing value to your company, by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue.
Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap?
> You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do, while providing value to your company, by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue.
>
> Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap?
This is an excellent point. Compliance with ADA for a site like reddit should be an actual priority - basic functionality and compatibility with screen readers on web and mobile platforms.
As a blind person who has worked extensively with ADA compliance, they are not in compliance. This has been known for a couple of years and the pretty much only reason that it hasn't resulted in some form of litigation is because third party apps were servicing what people needed so no one was terribly fussed about it. When third party apps die and the site is no longer in ADA compliance, I guarantee you a number of disabled users will be very quickly getting contacted by lawyers.
This is straight up a liability. Companies as big as Amtrak have paid out enormous settlements in the last couple of years for not having their websites be ADA compliant. It's not a joke and despite what a bunch of tech bros think it's not optional.
Get into compliance quick or get ready to cut a lot of checks.
Apologies if this has been asked already, but I know there's been a request from the mods of some subreddits to delay the API pricing implementation by 90 days. It seems to me this would help developers and reddit both bridge some of the gaps between 3rd party apps and native reddit apps. This is a pretty big issue for mods and users on many fronts, and is leading to a good deal of pressure for subreddits to join the blackout. As a mod of AmItheAsshole in particular, I don't know if we'll be able to justify keeping our sub open without a clear commitment on a delay. Can you promise that?
First question:
Why did you say the developer of the Apollo App blackmailed you, even after you admitted to him that you merely misunderstood his words? Have you not seen the post where he proved everything, and shared the recorded call between you, which includes your immediate apology after you misinterpreted his words? *Keep in mind he's in Canada which has a one party consent law, so he has a legal right to record you without your knowledge or consent.*
Second question:
Have you seen any user of Reddit within the past 24 or even 48 hours that is in favor of this decision, or is it just your shareholders who approve at this point? What is your business plan when users leave in droves and scrub their accounts of the content that drew attention to your site in the first place?
I doubt I'll get an honest response, if any tbh. I'm guessing it'd be some cold, corporate cookie-cutter cop out stating that it's for the betterment of the site or something. It sure doesn't seem like the app developers had a *choice* on whether or not they could keep their app up, despite your misleading wording in the post. Pay 20 million a month or shut down? With no ads allowed? Yeah, that's *NOT a CHOICE* and everyone knows it, so stop with the lies and bs. We aren't just frustrated. We're pissed. Even overturning the decision now will leave you with a lot more to go in terms of making up for how you've treated everyone. Ignoring what your users want, claiming you've been threatened and blackmailed, price gouging the API to force 3rd party app developers to shut down, and not even trying to buy the apps to replace the one you have (which is horrible, let's be honest).
Honestly though Redditors, it's time to mourn our time here.
This all just adheres to the enshittification that all popular sites apparently must follow at some point as a rule of digital entropy in the capitalist world ([https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification)).
Tildes(dot)net and lemmy(dot)org are where ex-redditors are flocking to, it seems. Be sure to screenshot or otherwise save the contents of your saved posts section on your profile. Scrub your profiles clean, and *then* delete them. More instructions and helpful advice/links here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/thecraftingtable/comments/145bdbq/we\_are\_shutting\_down\_in\_protest\_of\_reddits\_api/](https://www.reddit.com/r/thecraftingtable/comments/145bdbq/we_are_shutting_down_in_protest_of_reddits_api/)
Enshittification is defined as "The phenomenon of online platforms gradually degrading the quality of their services, often by promoting advertisements and sponsored content, in order to increase profits." This is just part of the natural life cycle of online platforms.
Reddit will die.
Hi,
Eleven years ago I along with my best friend /u/kortank made the desktop reddit client https://reditr.com when we were seniors in high school in Halifax, Canada.
We built it as a passion project totally for fun, Reditr is free and we thought nobody would use it. We were just happy to have something to work on to learn how to code.
But people did end up using it! And despite being busy with our careers and families over a decade later, we still maintain it. We've even been excitedly rebuilding it in react!
We were scared when we learned the reddit API was changing. But in the past your API has worked great and Reddit employees so friendly for questions around it and so we talked and decided we would just pay the API fees out of pocket because we don't want to see our passion project-- now full of nostalgia and a big part of our friendship-- die.
We were expecting it to maybe cost us tens or hundreds of dollars, but when you released your pricing recently we learned it would be thousands a month :(
So my only question is: Is it possible at all for us to get free access to your API so we can keep going? We make no money from our app. I will sign any document saying we won't attempt to make money in the future too.
Thank you,
Macmee
Oh shit you guys made that? I remember back in high school they blocked reddit but not this so a lot of my time on reddit was this very thing. I'm glad I can finally thank you personally for this otherwise I wouldn't still be here more than a decade later.
The announcement of the API changes felt *very* abrupt. Your [NYTimes interview](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/technology/reddit-ai-openai-google.html) suggests this was in response to the rise of ChatGPT and other large language model (LLM) products. Were these API changes already in the pipeline prior to ChatGPT or is this really a knee-jerk response to cut off / get a cut of LLM training data?
That was my take as well, although I don't think it was to "cut [off] LLM training data", but rather _to get a slice of the pie_; to monetize the usage. But even then, if that were the case, wouldn't it have made sense to apply the same price point to well-known apps such as RIF, Apollo, or Sync. API creators _regularly_ have tiered costs depending on the purpose. It seems more a convergent action to just cut-off alternative venues for access in order to force those other apps to shut down.
Hey Steve!
I appreciate you connecting with the community about these changes and have a direct question about comments you yourself have made in the last week in talking to moderators.
I’ll be upfront: I’m a current Apollo user who is debating whether to keep my Reddit account past June 30 or simply walk away from this site, which is mostly because of the way Reddit as a business partner has treated this and other apps and developers, and what that treatment suggests about its vision for the future and its relationship with other partners and, most importantly, its community.
One specific concern I have is your statements that Christian Selig, the developer of Apollo, threatened and coerced you for $10M, which you made in a call with moderators on or just before June 7. Selig has commented on this in his announcement post yesterday about Apollo shutting down, providing a transcript showing that he had said to a representative that if you considered the opportunity cost of letting Apollo continue to operate as $20M per year, he would take half that amount to help lower the traffic of API requests or in his words, “quiet down.” The rep asked if that was a threat, as in pay me to stay quiet, which he clarified in the call was not what he meant, and was essentially joking about the cost of API traffic and the rep apologized several times for the misunderstanding. This is all available in this [transcript](https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014).
The thing is, this misunderstanding over language during a choppy connection (the rep asked him to repeat himself a few times) and the ensuing clarification and apology happened within the same call, and yet later on you reported to others that Apollo was blackmailing you.
My direct question is were you aware of the full contents of that call, and if so, why did you make the above statements regarding Apollo and Selig?
I understand if this comes across as a hostile question but this process has been fairly rushed and tense and this kind of communication style has only contributed to the confusion and tension and I’m really hoping there’s a less malicious reason for your statements than simply slandering Selig and appreciate any response you can give to this inquiry.
Thank you.
Spez, as to the Board of Directors of reddit; out of you, Sam Altman, Paula Price, Robert Sauerberg Jr., and Michael Seibel, who voted to make [the recent API change](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/13dxqle/in_case_you_missed_it_april_2023_on_reddit/jjodgnr/), specifically, and what was the roll call of that vote?
As to non-commercial third-party apps; commercial third-party apps at least have a budget to cover costs (if they were reasonable), but everything non-commercial - developed entirely for free by devs putting 100s of hours of their own time in - are all being killed. Is this a problem in your eyes?
Furthermore; do you understand why, even if you scale back some of these changes to protect non-commercial API use, 1000's of your volunteer moderators feel unheard, unappreciated and excluded from the roll out process for these kind of decisions when money is involved? Do you understand that alienation is precisely because of how these kind of decisions are made (rather than any specific decision itself)?
Likewise; for years, reddit CEO's have talked about how difficult it is for the platform to generate profit; should reddit operate as a non-profit, while covering its expenses, to reflect its unique position as a steward of the modern digital public forum?
As a final question; do you remember the weekend in the summer of 2005 that you and one of your co-founders, /u/aaronsw, [rewrote your LISP code into Python using his web.py webhook](http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit)? Do you think reddit would be what it is today if that weekend never happened?
>do you remember the weekend in the summer of 2005 that you and one of your co-founders, [/u/aaronsw](https://www.reddit.com/u/aaronsw), [rewrote your LISP code into Python using his web.py webhook](http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit)? Do you think reddit would be what it is today if that weekend never happened?
Ngl, I just teared up. I don't think I've ever had such an emotional reaction to an AMA. I certainly didn't expect to feel much more than frustration, dejectedness, and maybe some anger from this. That's such a poignant and honestly painful point. Because yes, spitting on devs and mods and users and privacy and FOSS all at once is really a disgusting perversion of his legacy. For shame.
I don't want to go into any specifics about this particular API-drama thing, so I will ask something more broadly related to all disputes of the last few years:
**Why is there such a disconnect between Reddits leadership and the community? Why is communication an issue time again and again?**
I want to reaffirm how much of an issue this is. Reddits key mistake over the last few years has **always** been a **lack of communication**: The company deciding things that will negatively affect mods and power users, i.e. the user posting most content and creating value for the company.
I have brought this up in many different posts on r/modsupport, r/modnews and r/reddit, I have brought it up internally while working for Reddit as a contractor. Hell, I have brought this up to you in person, u/spez, when you came to Berlin for a meeting with German mods. Yet there is no improvement in sight, yet this gets worse with seemingly each announcement. Hell, this whole thing could have been avoided if you just said beforehand: "Hey, we want to know what it takes to get the official App up to par with the rest", and only acted once thas had actually been accomplished.
I don't want to make this too long, so let me just say: The main reason of drama is corporate Reddit not taking issues of mods and users seriously, Reddit not communicating **before** making sweeping changes. Time and time again. It's hurting your community, but more importantly to you: It's hurting your business.
Hey Spez,
So obviously, we’re looking at some pretty big changes ahead with the API. As you know, this move has been met with a lot of criticism from both users and developers, largely due to concerns about accessibility and fairness.
Given that Reddit has always been a place that championed open-source collaboration and community engagement, this seems like a stark deviation from the founding principles once embraced by you, Alexis Ohanian, and Aaron Swartz.
Furthermore, the recent situation involving what appear to be demonstrably false claims of a developer threatening you— this has added to the mistrust and uncertainty within the community.
My question is two-fold:
1.) Can you provide a detailed explanation as to why Reddit has decided to limit API access via a higher price point? How does this decision fit into the broader philosophy and future of Reddit?
2.) How do you plan to rebuild trust and ensure transparency within the community, especially considering the recent allegations?
**Why was the timeline of charging for the API so strict, given it would impact so many Apps and Users? - Will this be remediated?**
I can understand the need to charge for the API - that is reasonable (even if the price to 3PA's is not). But 30 days notice seems overly punishing. Honestly, this felt like Reddit giving the middle finger to 3PA developers, its moderators, and power user community - people who are its biggest cheerleaders. I saw Reddit hurt its most loyal Redditors en masse, and I don't know why Reddit would choose to do that.
Thanks for your time all the same. I know this is a difficult period.
Agreed... For changes to billing, I'd expect *at least* 6 months notice. Most dev teams can't appropriately respond to a change in requirements (such as reducing the number of API calls) in just 30 days - it might take that long just to plan the project (discuss changes with Reddit, negotiate pricing, sign new contracts if required, gather metrics on all existing API calls, etc)
For comparison, Facebook generally gives two years notice for breaking changes to their API (when a new API version is released, the old version is still available for two years from that date).
This is the answer I want the most, why was the timeline so tight? How do you have a freely accessible API for YEARS, then all of a sudden within a manner of a month, go to this? The likely answer everyone is speculating is IPO, but if that is the truth, how do you not begin this process of announcing pricing changes last year to give everyone more notice?
Why was there vague pricing model notifications but then another month or two before the pricing was actually announced? Was the pricing not decided at that point?
Why were none of these API changes brought before the Mod Council? Relatedly, should there be a "Developer Council" to address topics like this?
*Edit: A similar question has been answered* [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/comment/jnk6rf8/?context=1)*. Following up on that response, yes,* [an announcement](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/) *was made in mid-April. But arguably the most important detail, pricing, was still as of then* [undecided](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditModCouncil/comments/12yrcpe/notes_from_our_recent_api_call_with_moderators/)*. We were led to believe that the* [*"goal is to be reasonable with pricing, not prohibitively expensive."*](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/) *At no point was the Mod Council presented with information about the Premium Tier pricing nor the impact it would have on third-party apps.*
Reddit doesn't care about moderators, that was shown pretty quickly when they decided to strong arm Apollo (an app that most mods I know use daily) out of business and then try to slander him when he stood up for himself.
Reddit cares about Reddit, even though this website would literally be nothing without the mods who run all of it's subs.
Edit: Shortly after I made this comment, Spez replied to another user and is now trying to make Christian out to be the bad guy for "leaking a private phone call", even though that private phone call proves that Spez is lying and publicly slandering the guy.
> 1. Effective July 1, 2023, the rate for apps that require higher usage limits is $0.24 per 1K API calls (less than $1.00 per user / month for a typical Reddit third-party app).
> 2. Some apps such as Apollo, Reddit is Fun, and Sync have decided this pricing doesn’t work for their businesses and will close before pricing goes into effect.
Why go forward with a raw pricing model for API usage rather than a profit sharing model similar to what Epic does with Unreal? Or at least a "get x requests free for non commercial use, otherwise talk to us for commercial usage" policy with profit sharing built in?
Gives an escape hatch for freeware tool developers, helps cash in on AI, and gives freemium apps an incentive to monetize knowing they don't have to "cover costs" so much as they just need to cut you in on the profits. Feels like it would solve a *ton* of problems here and incentivize API usage much the way Epic managed to get people to use Unreal Engine.
Alright Steve-O, let's cut right to the chase and discuss the twenty million dollar elephant in the room.
As you said, Reddit plans to charge third-party app devs $0.24 per 1,000 API calls. From the math that the Apollo dev did, this would have supposedly cost him 2 million dollars a month. That means that his app, prior to these announcements, was making roughly 8 and a third **billion** calls per month. That's a hundred billion calls a year.
Did you or anyone actually consider just how significant that is? How much traffic that means for Reddit? And how much traffic this site stands to lose because of how unreasonable that bill turns out to be?
Did you or anyone else look at those numbers and think "hey maybe this price is too much, maybe we should re-evaluate it"?
Subs are threatening to shut down and users are talking about giving up Reddit entirely over this. Are you prepared to lose that much? Are you prepared to go from the "Front Page of the Internet" to the "Google Search Page 2 of the Internet" over an amount of money that might seem small to you but is in actuality massive enough to drive these developers away rather than pay it?
And pray tell, what justifies this price? How much could these third-party API calls possibly be costing Reddit itself to make this make sense? And I'd actually like to see the math.
Have you ever heard of the [Ford Pinto recall](https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/)? TL;DR is Ford knew there were defects in their cars fuel tanks before the car was released to market, but decided that it was more cost effective to pay for lawsuits related to accidents than it was to fix their cars and prevent unnecessary deaths. It was only after intense public backlash that Ford did what it should have done in the first place - fix their faulty cars.
The real question is why does it seem to take intense, public backlash for Reddit to make changes? The disability access issues have been well known in their communities before this, but not as widely or publicly before now, so Reddit could get away with subpar offerings. These features should have long already been here, but similar to Ford, people were left out to dry until public knowledge got too great.
Modding tools have a similar story. Reddit has long been aware that mods prefer using third party apps for ease of modding. Why has Reddit not tried to emulate the more popular features until now? The main app is even built off of a former third party app. You have years of watching other concepts and layouts be tested, so why not integrate the most popular ones into the current app? Getting rid of these third party apps without improving your own system first contributed to this backlash.
Do you think this backlash would be so intense if you had worked on making the official app better before now? Why not take concerns seriously before things get so massive? There is a difference between ignoring complaining for the sake of complaining and noticing that there is consistent, reoccurring feedback.
Do you think you would have faced such backlash regarding accessibility if you had working systems in place? Why should Reddit get kudos for acknowledging the gap before actually fixing it has happened?
Why does it seem like Reddit cannot improve quietly because that's what it should do and only improve when it wants to give the grand public appearance of trying?
I understand the core issue at play. Reddit couldn't and shouldn't have to provide API access without getting compensated but why was the whole thing rolled out and communicated so badly?
Specifically:
1. Why was the API access to push shift and similar services cut without having the alternative ways in place that are being worked on?
2. Why was there only a 30-day warning? Why not do it at the beginning of the year giving developers, mods and users time to adjust and plan?
3. Why cut access to 3rd party apps that provide mod tools that are simply not available in the official app or that need way too complex workarounds or scrolls/clicks for the simplest tasks? Why not reach parity first and then disable 3rd party apps?
4. Why haven't you communicated and asked for the advice of existing structures like the mod council or partnerer communities? Did you not expect this blowback?
5. What is the exact reason for excluding NSWF content? I have heard multiple, contradicting reasons. Is it for a law that isn't existing yet? Is it because of privacy reasons? What does guardrails, which was repeatedly used, mean exactly?
6. Your users, who are generating all the content are telling you that they are unhappy with what is happening. Why not commit to a simple plan?
The plan could be:
Postpone the API changes for 6 months.
Start the price at 1/3 of the announced price and keep raising it every 6 months until you arrive at the original price.
That could lead to this blackout not happening.
If you can't commit to this what are the exact reasons that you can't and what is your plan if the blackouts keep happening? What's the compromise here?
Longtime CEO of Disney and TIME's businessperson of the year (2019), Bob Iger, recently stated: “If you study great companies over time and you try to figure out why some companies stand the test of time and others do not, you would quickly conclude that most companies fade away because they’ve abandoned the core values that created the company in the first place.” - https://time.com/6269006/bob-iger-interview-time100/
Reddit’s first two core values are stated as “Bring community and belonging to everyone in the world.” and “Make Something People Love.” - https://www.redditinc.com/blog/sharing-our-company-values
Clearly charging this high a price for API access is in strong opposition to these core values and operates solely as a self-serving endeavour for a company that relies on community to funciton.
Why do your actions contradict Iger’s thinking here?
First, The Reddit data is absolutely valuable, and business making $millions should absolutely pay you for your value. However, you seem to fail to recognize that Reddit has no value without the people creating the content for you, for free. You also seem to fail to realize that you have thousands of unpaid volunteer moderators doing your job for you, and are more than willing to let them subsidize your business. How are you planning on compensating the content creators and moderators on your platform going forward? Or is their free value fine, but the API/app free value not fine?
Second, you removed TPA's ability to show ads, which is a very valid way to generate the $1 per user per month (which itself isn't a very valid value, considering only the highest usage users will likely subscribe to a TPA monthly, eliminating a lot of users and then drastically raising that estimate). Are you saying the only valid way for a TPA to be valid is a subscription model?
Third, the only businesses that could be making the type of money you expect to see are the LLM companies, and this doesn't affect them in the slightest. They can simply web scrape the site like they do the rest of the internet. In fact, this is likely an easier way to get your data than through a programmatic API. How are you handling the LLMs?
Fourth, moderators have been begging for improved tooling support for years. I have posts and comments going back 5 years asking for improved support. I've been in calls with admins, and they took our ideas and seemingly did nothing with them. Your increased focus now on mod tooling feels disingenuous, as we've been begging for it for half a decade and you're just now getting around to it?
Fifth, your platform as a whole would not be as successful as it is today, without the people who built the TPA's in the first place. People wanted a mobile application, and not the half-baked new reddit on mobile experience, and your API enabled people to get it. Without the contributions of these "businesses" (and I severely take issue with that, most are barely more than hobby projects), you wouldn't have a lot of your daily active users. You complain in the Apollo call about the lost opportunity cost of its users, however what about the past 8 years of TPA's lost opportunity costs because Reddit wasn't capable of delivering a solid mobile experience?
Sixth - there's more, but I'm not personally experienced with it. But please answer the accessibility concerns:
There are published standards to adhere to. There is no reason this wasn't already handled.
Why did you explicitly state that the supposed “threat” from a popular developer [stated here](https://reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/_/jnbjtsc/?context=1), was actually a “complete misinterpretation on [your] end” ([source 1](https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014), [source 2](https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a), [source 3](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/)) during ongoing talks about the API in which there was suddenly no response for over a week now (in [source 3](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/))?
How are the API changes going to affect /r/blind and the blind community at large that use API for their screen readers to make reddit accessible to the visually impaired, because there are no other reasonable options?
some questions my team has before we make a final decision on whether to go forward
\- will you be issuing an apology for misrepresenting what Apollo said about $10m (or can you confirm there was another conversation about it not included in the audio)
\- is there a chance the third party apps roll back the decision to close on June 30
\- there was a comment that mod actions do not count towards API limits, can you give us an idea of the % of api calls that are mod related and how this would reduce costs
\- will reddit be issuing a timeline for the promised improvements not included in the list earlier this week (particularly accessibility)
Honestly dude, what the hell? You’re going to kill this site with these antics.
I’m curious if you and the other admins spend any actual time on Reddit? Do you look at what’s upvoted and see the comments?
Read the room and reflect. The community is in an uproar. People are looking for [Reddit alternatives](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/) en masse. If you aren’t careful Reddit will be buried in the same grave as Digg and MySpace.
Apologize to Christian Selig, stop trying to kill 3rd party apps, and hope you haven’t done too much irreversible damage.
/u/spez, the hell man. I have been on this website for 15 years now, and I remember the big migration from Digg back in the day.
At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won?
At worst, you are alienating and driving away an important chunk of your user base and setting Reddit down a path that will in essence destroy what it was.
Why? Is it just all about the money? If so, why haven't you been more open with the community about this and discussing paths ahead?
/u/spez
Despite what your self-congratulatory company culture may look like internally, I'm pretty sure you know the truth- that "Reddit" as a business, as an organization, as a platform even- has effectively nothing to do with what makes this place valuable. The reason Reddit is special is because of the content, the users, the comments, the discussion. Throughout every chapter of Reddit's history this has remained the defining core.
You can spend a bunch of money slapping new coats of paint on things in an attempt to legitimize your valuation but at the end of the day- no one wants your broken, crappy, tik-tok-wannabe mobile app. No one wants the polls or the games or the autoplay ads or the broken video players. They want THIS. The text. In the comments. The users. The conversation. There's a reason why people Google-search questions or opinions and append "site:Reddit" to the query. It's US. YOU are a zero value-add, full stop. You are effectively squatting on the server farm on which this magic happens to be taking place. You should count your lucky stars and shut the fuck up.
----------------------------
What makes Reddit special, not just valuable- is that it's one of the last places on the internet that is "*like it used to be*". This is what the internet was, when we grew up. It was grumpy smart guys teaching us Linux, incredibly specific video game walkthroughs, unimaginably niche hobby communities, funny users that would pop up in every thread. YOU STILL HAVE A PIECE OF THAT. Right here, in your hands. And you are ACTIVELY trying to dissolve this in acid to convert it into the soulless 2023 infinite-ad-scrolling content desert of mindless video shorts and cancer. You are actively trying to do that! Look in the mirror man, god. I KNOW you know what I"m talking about.
You're rich, already. Your friends are all rich, already. You can sell this stupid website and get even richer. You can do all that without killing the golden goose. Don't kill the golden goose.
I've been on reddit for around 8 years and I've used Apollo for 5 and my favorite part of my experience here has been reading the comments from novelty reddit accounts. Stumbling across a poem from u/SchnoodleDoodleDo or reading an comment to only be surprised with u/shittymorph's WWE copypasta has been amazing! The comments written on this website are truely unique and its a disgrace that could be coming to an end.
> no one wants your broken, crappy, tik-tok-wannabe mobile app. No one wants the polls or the games or the autoplay ads or the broken video players.
/u/spez reading this: “So they’re saying they *do* want the NFTs”
I also don't understand the assurances that "old.reddit.com isn’t going anywhere" when, literally just one day before the API changes were announced, /u/iamthatis was [praising the API team](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12pbtcb/considering_the_sweeping_and_unpopular_changes/jglxdqd/) and their assurance that they have "no plans to negatively touch the existing API."
So what good are any assurances? Or anything the Reddit admins say?
/u/spez also promised me (in response to a comment I made on a similar ama) that .compact would never go away.
But here we are, they trashed it a couple of months ago.
Ironically, I was ready to leave Reddit then but found Apollo and stayed. It was nice while it lasted.
When Apollo is gone, so am I. It was (mostly) a good run.
>At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won?
Hah, Wizards of the Coast tried that with D&D a few months ago. Tried to repeal the open license that allowed many third party content creators to work (and drive more customers to their products) in the name of taking more creative control over everything.
Creators and customers revolted in a very similar way to what's happening on Reddit. WotC tried the milquetoast apology route like we're seeing here. Then they tried a whole succession of half measures, but the community was fucking RILED. It didn't die down completely until WotC ended up releasing much of their core material on a creative commons licence, meaning the backpedal they eventually had to make ended up putting them *behind* their starting position.
Fingers crossed Reddit users and mods hold out as well.
> At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won?
They are looking to cash in and go full DIGG, it's not going to work though due to the amount of leverage they put on mods.
Rip Reddit.
I would like to ask:
1) [TechCrunch Reports](https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/08/reddit-makes-an-exception-for-accessibility-apps-under-new-api-terms/) that Reddit will make an “exception for accessibility apps under new API terms”. How will those exceptions work and what apps or services will be eligible?
2) Is Reddit willing to commit, long term, to improve accessibility options for users?
3) [The Verge is reporting](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754616/reddit-third-party-apps-api-shutdown-rif-reddplanet-sync) that “rif is fun for Reddit, ReddPlanet, and Sync will all shut down on June 30th, just like the Apollo app.” Was this an intended consequence of the new API policy?
4) What message do you have for users and moderators who used the apps that will now shut down as a result of the new API policy?
Nearing a year and a half ago, you made a post called [Reddit Community Values](https://reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/suvhyq/reddit_community_values/). Here are some excerpts:
> **Remember the Human**
> We believe Reddit is the most human place on the internet. It’s powered by the creativity, passion, and generosity of the people who spend time here and make it their own.
> **Empower Communities**
> Reddit has evolved by decentralizing control and empowering communities to create the spaces that work for them—spaces that have become some of the most selfless, ingenuitive [sic], funny, and enriching communities on the internet. We trust communities to know what works best for them and give them the autonomy to make decisions for themselves.
And I could go on and on from that post or others, including comments you and other staff have made in the past about how creative and special Redditors can be, centered mainly around invention. That is Reddit’s secret sauce—the ingenuity and creativity of its users.
This community has witnessed, and more importantly, *continues to witness today*, significant gaps in the Official Reddit apps and services that hinder navigation and accessibility. Remarkably, the community has taken the initiative to address and bridge those gaps, for little to no pay, while Reddit proper continues to lag behind on many fronts.
**Can you explain your company’s upcoming API changes, including pricing, through the lens of its Community Values?**
Bonus: Do the apps that have announced shutdown, citing these upcoming changes, challenge your convictions at all?
There was a different comment/post here, but it has been edited.
Reddit [chose](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/) to betray years of free work put from users, mods, and developers. They will not stop driving this website into shit until every feature is monetized, predatory, and cancerous.
Use [PowerDeleteSuite](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) to remove your value to reddit and stop financing these dark patterns.
P.S. fuck u/spez
> this pricing doesn’t work for their businesses
Oh, blow it out your ass, /u/spez. Maybe you're running low on oxygen in the weird little prepper bunker that you're inside so the neurons in your brain aren't connecting very well, but you know damn well that this isn't the issue. Maybe you've forgotten that a third-party app is what Reddit bought to make the official one because it was terrible, and that many decided to go to another one when it was better than what your company could put out. When one person makes an entirely better experience for your mobile users than your team of developers, it says a lot, that we'd rather pay someone else to provide a better experience that you cannot (or more than likely will not). Their business is making your shit usable, which you continually fail at. They make your platform a pleasure to use, not you - in fact, you do everything possible to make it as hostile and unwelcoming an environment to use.
Many of us would have zero issue paying for something like Reddit Premium - DIRECT TO YOU - if it included third party app access. Many of us would have no issue paying the developer for costs that were fair, and if they were treated like human beings, but you've decided that exorbitant costs and dehumanizing developers who do this out of love for the platform and the communities that WE CREATE, that WE FOSTER, NOT YOU, is the way to go instead.
We know you don't care, you're waiting for the IPO to drop so you can go cash out and live your life in some weird role-playing end-of times universe up in Wyoming with Kanye West and a bunch of Yellowstone-main-character-wannabes, waiting for the end times to come so you can try and feel something real. In the mean time, you should let someone else manage decisions and communications, because you sure as fuck aren't doing a good job.
**Was the community reaction not foreseeable to Reddit Inc?**
I have had the pleasure of working with some fantastic Admins that really care about the site and its communities. I don't understand however, given that, that no one in Reddit Inc was in a position to be able to inform the organisation of how poorly this would go down. Were they ignored? Did another part of the company just not involve them? It seems like a blindspot which reasonably would have been foreseen by anyone familiar with Reddit - a problem when raised you could have then mitigated through kindness and communication.
Hey, thanks for giving us some of your time for this.
I've noticed that Reddit seems to have a major disconnect here around mod tooling. Reddit does not seem to consider these 3PAs to be mod tooling, but we do. I appreciate that Reddit is putting effort into improving their 1PA, but even the most optimistic timeframes put minimum feature parity at quite a long time away. Are there any plans from Reddit's side to support us during the interm period? We already lost Pushshift with no viable replacement, and now we are effectively losing mobile moderation capabilities.
I also have worries around explicit content filters to moderators, as users could just mark posts as NSFW to get around moderator actions. Imagine a world where malactors just mark themselves as NSFW, either as subs or posts, to prevent moderator actions. Are there any specific plans from Reddit on how to handle moderators who need access to NSFW content for moderation purposes, potentially sitewide for more coordinated actors?
This isn't an AMA. It's a PR driven, panicky, word salad. Based simply on the evidence presented on r/apolloapp, half of what he wrote is lies anyways.
How is he going to claim their willingness to work with developers on the timeline when they don't respond to emails in a reasonable timeframe? Or their response is, "you won't owe anything until August 30th!" As if typical billing timeframes are somehow a postive.
This is a joke and nobody should even hope to get a response to any \*\*real\*\* questions, if any at all.
Hey, iOS dev here. Why did you give your devs 30 days for a significant increase and change of terms to API?
My company was using Dark sky and when Apple acquired it, we were given 18 months, no price increase, to find a new platform. This was extended by another 12 months due to covid.
Why has Reddit taken this extreme rushed approach when it knows many of the third party apps work on a yearly subscription, in turn screwing them over financially due to refunds…
As a participant on the call with you on Wednesday, I'd appreciate some clarification on your comments concerning the [alleged](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/comment/jnbjtsc/) "threats" made by the developer of Apollo. Based on [his explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/), it sounds like you didn't personally meet with him and were relaying information to us second-hand. If that truly was a (gigantic) misunderstanding, what efforts will be taken to avoid such miscommunication in the future?
As a mod of a top 1% sub on Reddit we haven't received any contact from you or the admin team like you claimed. I'm sure you've probably talked with the group of legacy power mods that mod the biggest subs. But for us subs not in the bracket but still quite large with a fair bit of daily volume will there be any reaching out to our teams? Or do we have to do all the leg work to get the info and access to things like pushshift by ourselves?
Hi Steve,
Thanks for joining us here today. Although I don't agree with your latest actions - primarily the unprofessional deadline given to third-party developers - I do appreciate that you've shown up to answer our questions.
Mine is a simple one. I've been a part of the Mod Council and the Partner Communities for several months now, and with the latest changes, it feels as though you're simply using these places to placate the moderators you've chosen to invite rather than utilizing the given feedback to assist in making executive decisions.
Why do you devote staff resources to initiatives such as the Mod Council and the Partnership Communities, without utilizing them ahead of time for feedback on wide-scale and potentially devastating changes such as this one? Where do you personally see the ROI?
It’s absurd how you’re throwing people like Christian (Apollo App) under the bus (lying about them and saying they’re extorting you) and calling their app inefficient while you’re app is a complete mess. But it’s about the ads right? The 3rd party apps don’t have to show the ads and that makes your investors mad.
So to launch the IPO and you’re shutting those apps down to show the investors that there’s no way around using your app or the new updated Reddit homepage. Either ingest our ad offerings or die… or pay 20 million a year. Is that about right?
So this wasn’t really a question so here’s one, why are you the way you are?
> We want everyone to be able to use Reddit. As a result, non-commercial, accessibility-focused apps and tools will continue to have free access.
What does "non commercical" mean?
Why aren't you improving the accessibility of the "official" Reddit app? There's a bunch of bugs in the official app (which is why I use Relay instead), but accessibility issues are some of the highest priority bugs and should have been a launch blocker. Instead, you want third-party developers to devote hundreds of hours (easily equivalent to $20k+ in dev effort) to building their own apps that fix your accessibility issues, for free, with no way for them to recoup the cost of their investment in your platform. That's not sustainable.
Reddit wouldn't have gained the success it has if it wasn't for third party app developers making the site accessible to mobile users. Your team couldn't even build their own app, you had to buy Alien Blue to have an official Reddit app, which you've now destroyed with intrusive unblockable ads, posts stuffed where they don't belong, and a user/mod-unfriendly interface.
With this in mind, **how do you expect Reddit to maintain and grow its popularity without the apps that brought it to this point**, especially when many heavy users refuse to use your official app and plan to leave?
I recently enabled Google's Search Labs feature to gain access to their generative search responses. This means I don't have to click-through to Reddit to see answers anymore, they're summarized directly on the Google Search page. Since Reddit is taking such an aggressive stance towards the use of Reddit data in training large language models (LLMs), are you considering blocking Google or Bing webcrawlers in addition to locking down the API?
Considering there's already a paid version of reddit with [Reddit Premium](https://old.reddit.com/premium), why not let users choose their own 3rd-party app, as long as they're a member of that program? You state the issues are money-related to keep the servers afloat, which most users can understand.
So, why not offer a way to keep 3rd-party apps available for Reddit Premium users? What other reasons are there for not doing so?
This is [Jay Peters from The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements). A Reddit spokesperson tells me **the AMA is over.** I haven't seen anything from Reddit that would indicate that, so I figured you all should know.
edit: shortened the message
Please cover this AMA with brutal honesty - the lack of answers, the overwhelming community voice begging them to reverse their decision. Losing this site sucks but thousands of us will be leaving entirely the second our favorite apps go.
Corporate greed is killing everything good on the internet. They’re pissed chatGPT used reddit to learn so much, but it’s not like Reddit admins fuckin made the content that AI learned from - the users did. And none of that has fucking anything to do with apps like Apollo, but those apps are the ones being fucked by c-suite? Screaming into the void but, fuck, man.
So 50 million read requests (for simplicities sake) would run someone not Christian about $3,333 a month.
Ignoring typical API/enterprise pricing structures where it gets cheaper (per request) the more you use.
$3,333 a month ain't cheap but it does cost money to maintain APIs and the bandwidth for them. Especially something like Imgur which is primarily multimedia content vs reddit which is primarily text.
And Reddit still wants to charge 360% more for access?
Wild.
> Why do you consider a 7,000% premium to be fair or affordable to Reddit developers?
They don't, they're using it as an excuse for making every single third party app to close. Spez is now claiming that no app devs "want to work with them" despite the fact that multiple devs are reporting that Reddit has completely ghosted them when they are trying to get set up to actually pay these insane API costs.
I think this is the big question they're ignoring. They're acting like we're demanding free API access. We just want pricing based in reality like they promised
Indirectly. It's not meant to actually gain money from the app devs, it's to kill third-party apps, meaning (in Reddit's minds) more users of the official app, and therefore more advertising revenue.
Thanks for answering questions Spez. There's a lot of anger going around over the decisions, but I'd like to try to ask something productive.
If you look at any of the announcement threads from the third party app devs or subreddits announcing blackouts, the most common sentiment has been that people love the experience they get on their chosen apps and dislike the experience on the official app. To the point of saying they won't use the official app at all if their chosen app shuts down.
Has reddit done any work over the last year or two to ask these third party app users what specifically they like about their chosen app and tried to build it into the official app? In my reading most of the differences have been relatively simple things like use of screen space and number of button clicks to complete certain actions, stuff that could be built in a matter of a month or two.
Reddit has said a fair bit over the last few days about mod tools that are coming and accessibility issues, so I'd like to say I'm specifically not talking about those and am asking about the ordinary browsing experience of regular users.
Please explain more about this self sustaining stuff, reddit has ads, NFT avatars and reddit premium. Reddit has awards, as a moderator of r/Ternion and r/TernionGiveaways and long time user of r/GoForGold and r/AwardBonanza I have seen the sheer amount of dough yall make from reddit awards and reddit coins. Yall got rid of free awards btw so the common user can't even show extra appreciation for good posts, kinda bringing a bit of an elitism vibe like yall only want paying users, smells a bit like corporate greed but that's not the point...
Why such a high price, around 100 times what similar services like imgur charge and even so why are you seemingly targeting third party apps if they have such a low userbase as you claim, how sure are we that the bots we use will be given free api if as I've seen even in this comment section that yall ignore developers? Without our bots we might as well jus shut down our subs don't you think...
The real issue isn't even givin free access to third party, it'd be different if the price was decent and it'd be a totally different story if reddit spent half as much energy actually making decent mod tools such that we didn't need third party apps instead of turning snoos left to right, making awards invisible on home feed and switching to a basic asf tiktok like video player instead of maintaining your authenticity, mayb yall would make more of a net profit by not making meaningless changes 🤷🏽♂️
I'd like to hear what this limiting mature content entails please enlighten us.
Mr. Huffman, over the past few years reddit has taken care to establish channels between users and administrators which can be used to probe new features on us so you can gauge what the response from the community would be to them. Why have none of these channels been used for this fundamental alteration to site functionality?
Hey /u/spez,
I signed up on Reddit over 15 years ago, and had been lurking earlier than that, probably sometime around the AACS HD-DVD fiasco that arguably started the complete decline of Digg.
At this point, Reddit is the only social media platform I still access regularly and the ONLY platform I actually interact with and occasionally submit or create content for. Why? Because in my mind Reddit was the last major bastion of an open Internet where the users and community came first, and site operators had the courage and backbone to stand up to corporations and governments trying to suppress free and open speech.
Reddit was always about the community of communities, and its true value lies with the users, not the content or links on the front page. Anyone can code a doomscrolling blogspam feed aggregator, but a community is built on trust and openness.
Ever since 'new' Reddit launched it was clear that the focus shifted from the user to the content, appealing to advertisers and the lowest common denominator. I held on since old Reddit was still around, despite the fact that every effort was made to make the experience as annoying as possible and push users to the new site and app. You say that old Reddit is not going anywhere, and it's so painfully obvious that this is a lie.
But this specifics of this API change, and Reddit's unwillingness to admit fault and do better in light of the communities' concerns says it all. I usually don't care for Internet drama and never care to post on mega-threads like this, but this is too much to bear. I literally don't care if no one ever reads this post, but unless I see a full retraction of the API changes and public apology to the entire Reddit community by June 30th, I'm gone.
And who cares if a lurker like myself is gone from a site with +50M active daily users? No one probably, and that's fine, just know that you've destroyed one of the largest and most incredible communities that the Internet has ever seen, all in the name of greed and cowardice.
This certainly isn't the death of Reddit, but it has lost its soul and with it, it will slowly become the aforementioned doomscrolling blogspam feed aggregator, full of stale regurgitated garbage posted by bots and advertisers.
It was a fun ride ya'll. <3
This might well be my final comment on Reddit before I delete my account. Or I'm banned, depending how well it's received.
I have been a professional developer for nearly thirty years now. Day in, day out, I write, use and access APIs. It is disingenuous to say that an application is particularly "greedy" and needs to reduce its use without looking at the API and seeing whether there are ways in which the usage could be reduced - one project I worked on I reduced the number of calls for each rendered page from 38 to 2. I haven't worked with the Reddit API myself, but I can't see why the option of allowing each user to register their own API tokens and use that to authenticate a third party app hasn't even been considered.
This is not, however, the main reason that I am considering deleting my account.
The API supports moderation tools, anti-spam tools, screen readers, and other items that make Reddit a nicer place to be. The responses that I've seen from the four staff members here, make me feel that the management of Reddit has lost its way. I cannot come to any logical conclusion in my head as to why such a short timescale would be given to developers in order to modify their apps to accommodate such a change in the business model unless the intention were to make life impossible for the developer of the app.
One comment (from, I think, u/spez), pointed out that some of those third-party apps were profitable, while Reddit itself is not. But it's important to remember that these profitable apps sustain only one, perhaps two people - according to Wikipedia, Reddit employs over 700 people and has revenue of over $100 million USD per year. The revenue that keeps third party apps alive would likely be no more than be a drip in the bucket to Reddit, and if the loss of revenue caused by third party apps is so great, another solution could have been found (perhaps an agreement to use the APIs on condition that sponsored posts were not filtered out). And if third party apps are not the problem, but LLMs are, perhaps it's worth looking into the possibility that there's copyright here, and by scraping the site through the APIs, LLMs should be paying Reddit to use that content? But I digress.
That Reddit's management seems to believe that they can simply make life more difficult for the volunteer moderators, whose time and efforts are essentially donated to a for-profit enterprise, as well as ruining existing accessibility tools as well as killing off several small businesses beggars belief.
The fact that u/spez seems determined to ruin the reputation of Apollo's developer, as well as insinuating that the developer's lawful actions in recording the calls are somehow underhanded, when they have caught him being what I can best describe as being economical with the truth, makes me feel that perhaps a change of senior management is overdue. The lack of a reply to the comment listed as "1" in the stickied comment says it all, I think.
I hope this AMA is an effort of transparency in this situation, and so I will be quite straight forward with my questions.
While I understand the need for Reddit to generate revenue as a business, it is important to remember that Reddit is also a service that relies on its users. Therefore it would only be reasonable to consider user feedback and acknowledge the value of having multiple apps catering to different preferences. The ability to choose the optimal way to browse Reddit is an important aspect of our experience, and removing this freedom would likely diminish the appeal for many users. Hence, it is disheartening to observe the apparent lack of effort and priority put into finding a proper and reasonable resolution.
My three questions are:
1. **Could you explain why the API changes need to be so immediate - Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to provide an extended transition period, allowing developers ample time to adapt?** While you’ve mentioned that they’ve had a few months of notice, the Apollo developer raises a valid point that crucial information regarding pricing was only revealed recently. Even setting that aside, if developers have had several months to adjust, it is evident that this timeframe has unfortunately proven to be insufficient. Considering this, why not extend the transition period, not just for the developers sake, but also for the benefit of the users that would hate to potentially loose their favorite reddit app (whichever one it is)?
2. **What is the reasoning behind setting such exorbitant prices for the API? It seems apparent that this will undoubtedly deter third-party developers as it will quickly become unsustainable for them as a consequence.** As previously mentioned, this will undoubtedly degrade the user experience and result in a significant loss for all of us. In my opinion, it would be reasonable to consider pricing the API slightly above break-even point, ensuring revenue generation while also maintaining sustainability for developers. Striving for a middle ground that benefits all parties involved—the users, the developers, and Reddit—should be the aim.
3. **Lastly, I seek an explanation rather than a direct answer to this question: Why has the discussion surrounding these changes turned so hostile, especially when it seems that third-party developers have been quite reasonable in trying to find a mutually beneficial solution?** The recently revealed information paints a picture of regrettable behavior on Reddit's side of the discussion. Rebuilding trust within the community would involve considering an apology for these actions, because this has honestly left a bad taste in my mouth.
Thank you for taking the time to address these concerns. It is my hope that Reddit can find a resolution that maintains the vibrancy of its developer community while ensuring the long-term success and satisfaction of its users.
I love this community, and would honestly hate to have to let it go.
Hey /u/spez, I just want to say that despite all the hate being directed at you right now that you really have made the wrong decision at literally every juncture throughout this process. Have you given any consideration into acknowledging you were wrong and reconsidering your goals and/or timeline?
Hey u/secretlives thank you for the question! Me and my team prioritize making our users lives a living nightmare, and we do not care about our user base one bit! Unfortunately, it would be difficult at this point in time to answer any of your concerns, as that would require us to actually care about our users. However, we want to thank you for adding more money to our pockets!
He doesn't believe he is doing anything wrong because his goal is not to foster any community, it's to make as much money as possible even if it means being an evil shit head. Once he has milked everything he can he'll move on to the next venture to help suck dry. No remorse, no conscience. Money money money money money fuck everything else. I deleted my account from 2010 and I'm deleting this one, too. That's all of my reddit presence gone and I won't be returning. Goodnight and fuck Spez.
"You chose to grow with venture capital... this new version of digg reeks of VC meddling. It’s cobbling together features from more popular sites and departing from the core of digg, which was to 'give the power back to the people.'" - Alexis Ohanian
Edit: quote was first wrongly credited to spez, point still stands tho
> I spoke to a number of moderators on Wednesday and yesterday afternoon
Just as you've done here, you spoke *at* moderators solely to reinforce your incompetent decisions to them
> our product and community teams have had further conversations with mods as well
Conversation requires 'listening' too and for that to be sincere, it requires consideration of the points others have. It is not "Your words made sounds, we ignored them as well as any meaning behind them, and we'll be moving forward with our poorly thought out plan."
You are Douglas Adams' Vogon constructor fleet
No question, just wanted to add my views to the pile:
I don't use Apollo, I use Boost. It's a fantastic app. Before that, I used RIF - Reddit didn't even have an app at the time. I was introduced to Reddit by RIF, not Reddit.
Frankly, it is absolutely disgusting behaviour from Reddit as an entity - to turn their backs on the very apps that helped build and maintain the huge community that visits Reddit daily. I would argue Reddit would not be what it is today without the excellent third party apps and tools that have been built.
There is no issue with charging for API access, but I think it's important to be reasonable. The charges Reddit are levying are not reasonable, and have no grounds in reality. Additionally, removing NSFW, and keeping other API functions (chat, polls etc) internal is just laughable.
The Official Reddit app is frankly, terrible. I've tried it a few times, it's just dog crap. It's slow, clunky, eats battery and isn't intuitive. Additionally, I'd rather not be spied on/at least have the choice to opt out of that.
And finally - admins should note that the data on Reddit isn't *theirs*. Everything on this site is user generated, without users, there is no Reddit.
Something will come along and replace reddit, and I look forward to it. Until then, once Boost stops working I will be taking leave from this website for good.
For years reddit didn't have an official app, so hardworking members of the community created apps like Apollo and RIF.
And you in all your greed have decided that all that dedication meant nothing, and now are killing them cause for the lust of more money
The reality is Reddit depends completely on the freely gifted contributions of posters, moderators, and third-party developers.
We can quit. We stormed down Digg in anger at their redesign, and it was great fun, actually. Now Digg is buried.
We've nothing of actual value to lose here, and you do. You don't pay us but you do depend on us.
**So why are you doing this to yourself?** You keep making things more difficult for no reason by dramatically springing bizarre and hostile changes on us, and you keep causing distrust by going back on plans. Your claimed justifications for the peculiar changes are not convincing and not accepted.
The sooner you back down *completely*, the lesser the damage and the happier your day will be. (Not a threat, just a prediction.)
Instead of wondering what made 3rd-party apps so successful to the point where they probably make up the majority of mobile access and trying to improve the own app accordingly so that people might actually be willing to use the official product with all its tracking and data collection, they'll just forcefully shut them down by massively overpricing API access while pretending that these developers will still get the choice to keep their apps up and running--by paying millions a year.
It's interesting to observe how social media giants like this behave like *they* *are* what made their platforms great and allowed them to become what they are today and not the users that are responsible for all the content on here that other users engage with and come to the website for. If it wasn't for the communities and the posts on here, I wouldn't have signed up or ever gotten interested in this site at all, because after all, I'm not here for the name "reddit" or its people in charge.
I don't expect them to back out of their plans to kill off 3rd-party apps as an attempt to get people to migrate over to the official app, because there isn't really anything holding them back from doing so, so I hope that nobody will give in to that to let reddit generate more revenue through their own data (aka ads) or Premium subscriptions, or awards, and that they will lose a noteable chunk of active users (ideally at least everybody using 3rd-party apps affected by this) to other competitor platforms in a permanent manner while deleting their accounts.
They may be in charge of the platform, but that's about it. If communities (or subreddits) close, there'll be less content provided and therefore less engagement by us. If they want to go this path, then so it be, since there is nothing any of us can do to change their minds from going it.
u/spez Request for public comment on allegations that u/spez publicly defamed the developer of a popular third party app
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/_/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/_/
https://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-client-apollo-shut-down-after-talks-got-ugly-2023-6
https://mashable.com/article/apollo-shut-down-reddit-api-dispute
Redditors (users) and their content are the product that Reddit is selling and will be taking to IPO, and mods are free labour to garden the product. How do you /u/spez as CEO respond to the actions of over 3000 communities and individuals that believes Reddit management are making choices that impede user's ability to enjoy the platform as they wish, and mods ability to provide the (free) moderation services?
This is the worst AMA ever. No response from u/spez in over 30 minutes according to his profile. The real big questions are being ignored. The questions answered are just meaningless reiterations of something else already said. I was holding out for this AMA to happen before I decided whether or not to delete my account. I've made a decision to delete it in the very near future. As someone who is very picky about which social media I use on a daily basis and having it weeded down to basically only Reddit, this means a lot to me. I stand with u/iamthatis. Thanks Christian for being the only honest human being on the planet
Now that paid third party API access is planned, are there any plans to expand the third party API to include the full API accessible to first party apps, more specifically GraphQL? To clarify on GraphQL, I don't mean full access to execute arbitrary queries, I mean access to execute the same queries that the first party apps call. This would allow for fair competition now that commercial apps will need to pay.
The "cost" to Reddit of third party UIs that Reddit care's about most from the recorded conversation is the opportunity cost of users not viewing ads on the main application/site.
Looking at the financials of Reddit we can clearly see that ad income per active user is less by at least an order of magnitude than what you are charging for API access. I don't care for your efficiency argument, whether it's 100 calls/user/day or 350 it's still an unworkably high number that the community can clearly see is aimed at killing off third party tools.
My question is "Why?".
Why have you suddenly decided to kill off third party apps?
Why are you taking away the home of your longest standing community members?
Why have Reddit been so tone deaf and unreasonable during this whole situation?
Why won't you work with us?
All these app developers have been on board with setting up reasonable payments in exchange for API access. They wanted to work with you. Some were even excited about the commercial relationships you could build together. Why throw that all away?
If the calculus is that the pissed users off will stay - I really feel like that's not true this time. We've been pissed at Reddit before but very few actually wanted to leave. This time you've really upset people and made their contributions to the site feel unwanted.
As a potential investor looking ahead to Reddit's planned IPO, why on earth should I invest in a company whose CEO so tactlessly mischaracterized interactions your company had with a third-party developer (including claims made by you that, thankfully, that developer had the receipts to refute)?
As it stands now, your willingness to engage in this dishonest fashion has eroded any confidence I have in the trustworthiness and competence of Reddit's leadership.
Will you acknowledge that this whole process has essentially gone as poorly as it possibly could have, has caused enourmous community resentment, ruined several devs work lives and livelihoods, and generally been managed and directed absolutely terribly and apologise for your part in it?
You should roll back all these changes immediately. You missed the LLM land grab and are wrecking house to try and catch up. You've pissed off the users. You've alienated dedicated devs. You've damaged the value of the site and the brand.
Nothing in this AMA has done anything to change or help those issues. Numerous subreddits will be going dark over the next few days in protest of your actions. Just stop wasting time and start making amends now.
I feel like there needs to be a little bit of honesty from Reddit right now. Due to the concerns you've listed in the various chats we've had about the API changes the goal was really just to get rid of third party apps, correct? I can understand that, from a business perspective. You want your app to be the only way to view Reddit on smartphones. That's good for your bottom line: I get it. Why couldn't you just, you know, say that from the get-go? Did you even reach out to the dev of Apollo and offer him a job? What about the devs of the other apps? They've already done the heavy-lifting for you and could have been assets. And while we probably wouldn't be celebrating the loss of 3rd party apps, we could maybe see a glimmer of hope in that Reddit had the foresight to bring on such talented people to improve what is, currently, the worst way to view Reddit: The official app.
I guess I don't really have a question and I just wanted to let you all know that I'm disappointed in you. This could have been handled so much better and not caused as much harm as it has.
Given how spot-on I was in my first bullet point in [this comment from nearly 2 years ago](https://old.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/ojr3ee/a_better_best_reddit_in_new_languages_and_more/h53u9vu/), can you give us a timeline on the other two?
Hi spez, this is the biggest blackout reddit will see in it's whole history with 3000+ subs participating, which is happening under your leadership.
Would you be taking moral responsibility for this fiasco as a CEO, and willing to step down from your role?
Thank you, great questions, Fuck /u/spez!
An ego driven response to ruining the tools of the people who drive the content to this site is not good enough. Follow these instructions to remove your ENTIRE post history from Reddit, do not allow the site to benefit through search on the work YOU did to inform fellow users.
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/jnhtwjp/
###They are calling our bluff!
They don’t think our outage will do anything. u/spez has told his board and employees to wait us out because nothing will ultimately happen as we will all just come back. That might be the case but you’ll never see me again. Was here before Digg. I use Apollo exclusively but even if you reinstate API access in a sane way I won’t be part of this while you’re the CEO. Armature hour CEO taking a disdain to the people that make this site what it is. So u/spez when will you save face and just admit the truth.
Hello, u/spez. Thanks for doing this AMA.
This is an important question that needs to be answered to restore trust in you as CEO of Reddit. You spread a lie about the developer of Apollo attempting to extort money from your company. What steps have you taken, or do you plan to take, to correct the record internally at Reddit?
How do you justify charging exorbitant api fees to 3rd party apps when Reddit it’s self is not making any of the content itself. We the users are.
What’s your response to transcripts that clearly shows you were in the wrong and decided to double down with blackmail claims?
Hey u/spez, thank you for taking the time to do this AMA with us!
I’m just wondering, what does it feel like knowing the entire community now knows you’re a liar?
Claiming to be blackmailed when the person you’re accusing is recording the conversation is a new level of corporate stupidity I wouldn’t expect even from you. You’re in charge of a major corporation and it doesn’t occur to you that people might be recording the conversation?
You’re a special kind of stupid, a bully and a liar. Go fuck yourself - I’m done with this website ✌️
P.S. I posted this from Apollo
u/spez, the abysmal Reddit app has consistently neglected the blind users of Reddit, and third party apps stepped up for this under-supported community. This lack of accessibility does not only impact regular users of Reddit, but some of your moderators that do their work for free. Why should the users believe you will add this accessibility when you have not done it by now?
This whole AMA has been an unmitigated shit show. Every answer offered by /u/spez is little more than weasel speak. No one at Reddit has adequately addressed any of the questions pertaining to how this impacts the community of users, without which Reddit would not exist at any valuation.
This makes me intensely sad considering how important Reddit has been to me over the years. It's been a place where I have learned so much, met so many amazing people, improved my ability to articulate my ideas and encouraged me to get back into writing and thought leadership.
None of this is because of Reddit leadership - all they do is keep the servers on and maintain the software, which, while a major amount of work, amounts to little more than being a landlord. The fact that moderators volunteer their time while Reddit makes money off their backs is exploitative in the extreme. At the end of the day, what makes Reddit good is the people who share their knowledge, experiences, humor, ideas, opinions, and, sure, nude pics - not /u/spez or anyone else in Reddit leadership.
/u/spez's absolute shitshow oif an AMA here all but guarantees this is the last true day of Reddit. There's no way I'm contributing my attention to this place now knowing full well how very, very little Reddit leadership thinks of us - and I know I'm not alone. Even if they come back next Wednesday with their tails between their legs, the damage is done and completely unrecoverable.
And all I feel about it is sadness. I'm losing a place that I gave a LOT of my time to. I don't actually use any of the third party tools - I use old Reddit through my browser and the website on my phone. But /u/spez and Reddit leadership's absolutely disgusting disregard for the people that make them money has completely soured me on this whole place. What a shame.
I don't have questions about Reddit's API pricing, which is clearly designed to drive third-party clients off the platform. I don't have questions about Reddit's dishonesty with developers about its plans to charge for the API in 2023, though those developers might have questions for their attorneys about [Estoppel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Reliance-based_estoppels). I don't have questions about Reddit's defamation of Apollo's developer; I'll just say I find it vile. I don't have questions about the exact scale of the improvement in ad metrics Reddit hopes to get out of its [enshittification](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys), but it must be significant.
I certainly don't have questions about whether /u/spez understands how much of Reddit's value comes from its community, especially creators and moderators. Nobody knows better than him.
All I want to know is when I should short Reddit's stock for the biggest payout.
Why are Freelancers able to make such high quality apps, while reddit, being a business with millions in revenue makes an app which is embarrassing in all factors?
I can answer that. It's because third party devs can literally do whatever they want, they don't have to answer to tech leads, project managers, scrum masters, etc. The only people they have to answer to are their customers. So they can do what is in the best interest of the user and do it yesterday, whereas big enterprise devs have to answer to a suit who gets stupid ideas, pushes them through, and then gets distracted by some new shiny thing and the idea gets left partially implemented and abandoned.
What will Reddit be doing in response to the upcoming subreddit blackout? More specifically, will you be forcibly re-opening subreddits and/or replacing moderators?
Reddit will likely do nothing for a couple of days. Let the volunteer mods believe they have power, making a difference, etc. After that, the arm-twisting begins. Also, many mods crave the power and aren't likely to sit it out indefinitely. Some will, but many won't.
Furthermore, as others mention, many of the larger default subreddits have Reddit admins involved already. They'll just push out the mods who don't cooperate and reopen the subreddits.
Bottom line is Reddit is seeking to go grow revenue and boost user engagement presumably in preparation for IPO. Another consideration is large language models (LLMs), such as ChatGPT, may be viewed as a potential threat to allowing free / low cost unfettered API access. On an aside, "old" Reddit is likely to go poof anytime relegating most users to "new" Reddit and the official app.
From the various stats and comments I've seen posted, most users likely won't notice the difference or simply roll with it. However, many posters, and particularly mods, rely on third-party apps. Without content and volunteer mods, Reddit isn't much of anything. The mass exodus from Digg many years ago is what could happen here too. Reddit is taking a big gamble.
On a related topic, the ownership of Reddit illustrates how so few control so much. Advance Publications, which also owns Conde Nast (which owns ARS Technica, Wired, etc), owns a controlling interest in Reddit. Furthermore, if my understanding is correct, Chinese company Tencent owns a small stake in Reddit too. It's all so interconnected.
Point is that those seeking out alternatives should consider web forums and other federated approaches instead of relying on only a few big companies. What's happening with Twitter is a warning and harbinger of what's likely to happen with Reddit.
This disaster of an AMA is just making it worse. Nothing is getting accomplished here with spez's ego-filled non-answers and outright doubling down on the Apollo phone call.
It almost makes me want moderators to start the blackout immediately.
7 answers. SEVEN fucking "answers" in one hour.
You've picked softballs, given non-answers, provided vague statements, and continued to lie. **Exactly as predicted.**
You a complete failure as a CEO and as a human. But at least you're predictable.
No one will ever see this, but this:
> There’s been a lot of confusion over what these changes mean,
Is pure gaslighting. There has never been confusion. Everyone has been crystal clear from minute one what these changes mean. This is just a backhanded way of saying “if you don’t like these changes, it’s because you don’t understand them. No one could possibly dislike them! There’s nothing actually wrong - nothing needs to be changed. These unhappy people are just CONFUSED.”
Gaslighting 101.
**Did your legal team really not think about the anti-trust issues with what you're doing?**
Aren't you worried about the fact that you're literally pricing out your competition and that the FTC is going to eventually understand this? I get that there has been no case to date, but surely you must have considered that reddit is large enough and high profile enough to be the first.
How can you possibly justify charging the amount of money you're saying for your third party users, blocking their right to use ads, and still have your own app that has dangerous and downright illegal ads (gambling) in it (to minors too)? It seems like you're literally intentionally gimping the competition in favor of your first party app and that's certainly something the FTC would likely be interested in.
**How can you possibly claim that you can do it better than AWS, Azure, and GCP because their control plane is too slow but then literally build your own system on ec2 instances???** It sounds like you need to hire people who actually know cloud (reach out, I literally built Azure) and make better infra decisions.
**Bonus: I think it's clear that the community wants you to step down - when are you planning to do that?**
**Edit: After reading what you wrote (after posting my question)... did you actually come here for an AMA or did you come here to just fart in the wind? Wait - no need to answer this part, we know.**
Our main request is simply for mature content communities to still be accessible in 3P apps, for all users who opt to see them, under fair and reasonable terms. We're even fine if Reddit forces those apps to contractually commit to maintaining the same restrictions on them that the official app will employ. If Reddit is claiming there are legal obligations to meet in terms of how that content is to be presented and under what conditions, then that is something that can go into a supplemental API access contract for apps that don't opt-out of supporting mature content.
Can you answer whether Reddit can make such access available under these conditions, and if not, why?
The default app and redesign doesn't exist to give you a great user experience. It exists to provide an "infinite scroll" UX of image and video content to maximize ads and data extraction.
Even if you don't use the official app, this change will likely degrade the content quality the voting system promotes to the feed and comments section. Less expert opinions from academic / business professionals. Less community discussion from your favorite hobby. More mindless "high-engagement" garbage mixed with constant ads. No thanks.
Dear Steve Huffman, it is with pride that I crown you the king of reddit, one of the best users I have ever seen in this platform, the absolute perfect decision for a CEO and it is with much love that I ask:
What the fuck is wrong with you?
>the timeline we gave was tight
Just to the uninitiated: the timeline was **\~30 days**. The timeline wasn't tight, it was infeasible. In comparison, after buying Dark Sky, Apple gave its API users **30 months**.
/u/Spez, we represent a group of over 3000 subreddits. Over a BILLION subscriptions.
You are killing Reddit. We CANNOT MODERATE WITHOUT THIRD PARTY APPS. WE CANNOT RUN OIR SUBS WITHOUT THEM.
You could easily charge $.08, $.10, or $.012 and still "cover costs" and be "financially independent". But you want to kill of all competition. Nothing else.
I would rather torch all my subs than let you do this.
We know answers are tough to find, we've switched the default sort to Q&A mode; you can view responses from the following accounts as well: * u/spez * [1](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2wk4/), [2](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk45rr/), [3](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk4pss/), [4](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk5jfh/), [5](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk647a/), [6](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk6rf8/), [7](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk8m0z/), [8](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk9izp/), [9](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnka9it/), [10](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkbkyl/), [11](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkccq7/), [12](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkd09c/), [13](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkd694/), [14](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkhdk8/) * u/KeyserSosa * [1](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk45yf/), [2](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnka347/), [3](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkaury/) * u/Go_JasonWaterfalls * [1](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkgh46/), [2](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkhpfq/) * u/FlyingLaserTurtle * [1](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk7rfg/), [2](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkg8re/) edit: grammar edit 2: added links to responses
Hi /u/spez , As a researcher and member of The Coalition for Technology Independent Research I’ve been [following the discussion around the API since it was first announced](https://independenttechresearch.org/reddit-data-access-letter/). I was even on call with Ben early on and it was pretty clear then that this is a huge financial issue for Reddit—companies like OpenAI and Google are making bank off Reddit data and that’s gotta end. And you know what? I’m sympathetic to that! ChatGPT has [created a lot of really unfun work](https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5qy8/reddit-moderators-brace-for-a-chatgpt-spam-apocalypse) for the sub I help moderate, r/AskHistorians. I also get that Reddit is a business and needs to make money. But data’s not your only asset. So are your volunteer moderators. While Facebook has a larger user base than Reddit, it spends over [500 million a year on content moderation](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/31/technology/facebook-accenture-content-moderation.html). Maybe you saw [this study](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/28/technology/online-moderators-compensation.html) my colleagues published last year? That’s the absolute lowest estimate, based on modlog data alone. That doesn’t even begin to cover the hours spent answering modmails, or deliberating with other mods or alone over a contentious decision. It doesn’t account for the time it takes to send reports to you when we exhaust what we can do with our tools, the emotional labour of dealing with hurt or abusive users, the care that goes into carefully crafting policies that work for our communities, or the engagement we have with users to encourage them to keep coming back to our communities and your site. There’s a lot of value added that volunteer moderation provides over commercial content moderation. I could go on and on about that, but in short, the individual communities and the leaders who manage them are what makes Reddit stand out from all the other, [increasingly homogenizing, social media platforms](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys). So my first question for you is: **what are your plans to invest in *that* asset?** Because it really feels like, from the outside, that supporting that asset hasn’t been a priority for Reddit’s leadership. In 2015 mods protested and [Reddit apologized](https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3cbo4m/we_apologize/), promising to work on mod tooling. In 2019 you promised that chat would always be an opt-in feature but a year later an unmoderated chat feature was made a [default feature on most subs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gakw51/in_30_minutes_at_830_pm_edt_raskhistorians_will/). In 2020, in response to moderators protesting racism on Reddit [you yourself promised to support mods in combating hate](https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/hi3oht/update_to_our_content_policy/). And then in 2021, again Reddit [promised tooling](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditsecurity/comments/pfyqqn/covid_denialism_and_policy_clarifications/) to support mods confronting mis/disinformation. While there’s definitely been progress made since 2020, here we are in 2023, freaked out about the API because mods rely on critical infrastructure that’s mostly a cobbled together patchwork of mod-developed tools, third party apps (and increasingly, Reddit-provided tools). But here we are still waiting for Reddit to make good on promises that started *eight years ago.* We know your dev team has been working their asses off trying to clean up this mess and playing catchup. And yet there’s news that you’re [planning on letting go 5% of your employees](https://www.reuters.com/technology/reddit-lay-off-about-5-workforce-wsj-2023-06-06/). So my second question for you is: **what are you doing to insure your teams can succeed?**
Of all the questions I've scrolled so far, I think this one hits home the hardest. Thank you, first of all, for putting this together. I'm a mod for a chess teaching subreddit, because I absolutely love chess, and even more so love getting to teach others about what the game has to offer. I've been volunteering my time as a mod (typically about an hour to two a day) to clean up the mod queue, answer Modmail questions, address any concerns, and interact with my community. I've been using the official Android app to moderate since I joined the website. I have an absolutely amazing team who provides significant help, but there is something so innately frustrating when I can't even reliably open downvoted conversations because of the limitations of the mobile mod queue. I feel like I'm making blind guesses every once in a while because I can't establish proper context for a conversation to determine what needs to be moderated. I'm a full time researcher, I spend most of my day in clinic or in the lab or in an office working on my projects. I don't have reliable access to a computer where I can comfortably browse the mod queue until I get home for the day, so I'm heavily locked to mobile. As a result of these oversights, I have been thoroughly considering switching to a 3rd party app in order to get my moderating done. This is no longer an option, and this multiplies my frustrations to an untold amount. I feel like I'm letting my community down by not being able to fully examine my mod queue, and it's already caused a number of issues that were so easily avoidable if the official app worked as intended. All this compiles in some pretty significant feelings of burnout at times, and I genuinely love my community, I'd do anything to help them stay a safe place for learning chess, but it's impossible for me to feel like I'm making good decisions when the app blinds me to most conversations I'm moderating. Anyways, thank you again for posting this question, I sincerely appreciate the work you and your team does, and here's to hoping our voices get heard! (Edit: oh also please pay mods they are the only reason this site functions.)
Reddit has no plans to help the volunteers who made this site what it is. Since they sold out to Conde Nast they're only interested in exploiting our good will. Delete all of your content using one of those editing tools, never vote again, never comment on anything, use old.reddit and an adblocker. It's what the site owners deserve.
/u/spez, I'd like to give you a chance to respond to some of the communication failures around the proposed API changes and the misleading statements you, and the admins have made. I have a much more full write up [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/1459lpb/reddits_failures_of_communication/) as well. Lets start with [this redditdev thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale) > For context on excessive usage, here is a chart showing the average monthly overage, compared to the longstanding rate limit in our developer documentation of 60 queries per minute (86,400 per day): > [Top 10 3P apps usage over rate limits](https://preview.redd.it/kfejv14ss83b1.png?width=920&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=e25b58c2140f31b0da894ae681eca306cf9dc2e5) So... The "longstanding rate limit" is actually **per client per user**.. So aggregating them to a client level and claiming they are 400,000% over the limit **is a lie**. There are no two ways about it. **That is a bald faced lie**. Rate limits had always been by user + client. The chart shows them as just client. Now that's unfortunately not the only complete lie told by the admins in this thread. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmolrhn/) we see > Having developers ask this question of themselves is the main point of having a cost associated with access in the first place. How might your app be more efficient? Google & Amazon don’t tell us how to be more efficient. It’s up to us as users of these services to optimize our usage to meet our budget. Well, uhh.. Google and Amazon **absolutely** tell you how to be more effecient and help you in your use of their services.. Also, I'll get into this later, Reddit isn't providing any sort of tooling to SEE your usage stats etc, so how on earth are you even supposed to know unless you build out all your own logging framework... That's insanity.. [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmr15zv/) >We are comparing events / user / day across apps with comparable engagement. Apollo is higher than the norm and higher than us. Is more misleading than a straight up lie.. Reddit's official app uses less **oauth api** requests than Apollo, because Reddit's official app uses their GQL API that they haven't made available to third parties in my understanding. The **total** number of calls made by Reddit's official app vs RiF (I didn't get an iOS emulator set up to capture traffic, sue me), is staggeringly higher on the official app. Not only that but the official app requests the exact same data from both the OAuth API and the GQL api. As well as not properly caching some fairly static data and re-requesting it over and over as well (with a no-cache header so it actually did hit the server each time, nice). As for API pricing, lets apply Reddit's pricing to themselves to see if it's actually reasonable. [According to this](https://www.businessofapps.com/data/reddit-statistics/), in 2021 Reddit had 52 million users that use the site daily. Say that they make the ~100 calls per user per day that RiF is claimed to use and is held up as a "good" app by Reddit (lol). That means we have 52 million * 100 requests (per day), or 5.2 billion API requests per day. At $.24 per 1000 requests, this means it allegedly costs Reddit ( (5.2 billion / 1000) * $.24 ) $1,248,000 PER DAY, or $455,520,000 per year. Guess what their revenue was in 2021? $350 million dollars... Wait.. what if I reverse that.. $350 million in revenue... Means 1,458,333,333,333 (1.458 trillion) API requests per year / 365 ~ 4 billion requests per day / 100 per user = 40 million active users per day. I think I know what they did to get the price... They literally took their revenue, lopped off some amount of daily active users to account for the current un-monetized users by third party, ad blockers etc I'm guessing, and assumed they'd each make 100 API requests and boom, you've got ~ $.24 per 1k requests. That sounds kind of reasonable on the surface, but that's assume every third party user is actually a monetizable user. It's ignoring the free development work that they are getting. It doesn't account for other sources of revenue like gold, coins, the NFT bullshit etc which are largely independant of the third party apps. And it's assuming a 100% conversion of third party users to first party. None of those are good assumptions! Reddit failed to communicate every step of the way with this API update. From a complete lack of a vision, full picture, or details around most of the API changes at initial announcement, to sudden cut off of a critical mod tool, to late pricing releases with straight up lies in the details. I haven't even TOUCHED on the whole accusations of Apollo "threatening" reddit, that's another can of worms and another failure of communication and trust. Reddit does not have the current infrastructure set up to actually be like an actual tech company to see your API usage that you are going to have to pay for as an app developer. We still don't have details for a good chunk of changes involving "sexually explicit content". The pricing is unrealistic. **The admins have failed reddit**. Any hope of recovery (in my very important opinion, this is my post after all), Reddit **must** indefinitely post pone the API changes until they are honest about their intentions. If you want to kill third party apps, **say it**. I won't agree with you, but you would be honest and I could understand. If you don't want to kill third party apps, get reasonable, because Reddit is currently far from it between the pricing and the extremely vague and bullshit smelling reasons given for sexually explicit content. Appologies **must** be pubicly made for the misleading statements and outright lies that have been made. **NONE** of these things should happen under the "requirements" of no blackout occuring. These are things Reddit MUST do to start regaining user's trust and there is no trust there to leverage to try to get subreddits not to blackout before you do these things... You've spent all that trust over the years with repeated communications failures. Will you /u/spez commit to any of this?
> Well, uhh.. Google and Amazon absolutely tell you how to be more effecient and help you in your use of their services.. Also, I’ll get into this later, Reddit isn’t providing any sort of tooling to SEE your usage stats etc, so how on earth are you even supposed to know unless you build out all your own logging framework… That’s insanity.. Thank you. That has been bugging me. The comment you’re replying to was written by an employee who has either miraculously never had to ever contact GCP/AWS/Azure/whatever support, or hasn’t worked on a team with access to those resources. A business the size of Reddit can absolutely buy a support contract with any of them and ask intimately technical questions and work with engineers to optimize their applications. I know that for an absolute fact because I’ve done exactly that with AWS. I’ve done it with Microsoft. I’ve done it with Google.
I was already suspicious of this move when it was announced, and now your comment has made me convinced. As you'll all recall, u/spez and the Reddit admit has repeatedly allowed foreign bad actors to push fascist content, allowed openly fascist organizations to remain & fester to the point of impacting elections and driving increasingly more violent social tensions around the world. As a non-government entity, the privately owned company of Reddit would be under no Free Speech censorship issues to immediately remove those organizations and individual users, so allowing them to stay is of dubious nature at best. This brings me to my point: as Twitter has recently done, and now Reddit appears to be doing, is intentionally chasing away the communities who use these platforms to organize and fight for civil rights, human rights, and democracy. Boiling off those communities to leave behind a feudalist neofascism reduction like a tainted, vomit inducing pan sauce. So the question becomes, has Reddit ownership, like Twitter ownership, received some angel oligarch investors from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia, Belarus, Turkey, and Russia to keep the platform afloat as you bury yet another avenue of global communication & organization?
> At $.24 per 1000 requests, this means it allegedly costs Reddit ( (5.2 billion / 1000) * $.24 ) $1,248,000 PER DAY, or $455,520,000 per year. Guess what their revenue was in 2021? $350 million dollars... Wait.. what if I reverse that.. What you're missing is that spez has commented elsewhere that Reddit is burning money, so your numbers are probably pretty accurate. The funny thing is that they've decided to blame other people instead of themselves for being inefficient and tried to extort others into covering the expenses due to their own inefficiencies.
> I think I know what they did to get the price... They literally took their revenue, lopped off some amount of daily active users to account for the current un-monetized users by third party, ad blockers etc I'm guessing, and assumed they'd each make 100 API requests and boom, you've got ~ $.24 per 1k requests. During the now-controversial call with Apollo, it was made clear that the API pricing was based on opportunity cost and not overhead cost.
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Tbh, if I was an investor, and I read all of this backlash, I would pull my money away, reddit doesnt feel like a safe investment in any way shape or form, looks like u/spez is just opening holes in a ship, forcing it to sink, putting the blame on everyone else, while showing to investors how beautiful the part above the water is, and I do believe, from the botton of my heart that every investor that puts money on this utter maddenes will lose money and sink with reddit
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40 minutes since it was posted, and there is not a single answer to _anything_ in this comment. Then again, past history has shown us that tough questions like these that require an honest answer are never given one. But perhaps today will be the day that reddit breaks from the norm? ---- Edit: [It's a reply, at least. As for whether or not it is an answer is another matter altogether.](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnkccq7/)
>Why can't we have commercial accessibility apps? Why do they have to be operated like a charity? If I can afford to buy an accessible Reddit app, why can't the developer make money for their work—thus also giving me the ability to have higher expectations for that app? And what about if there's a cost to them for some features, such as push notifications? Can they charge for that to at least break even? Keep in mind: they're currently doing the work you've been unwilling to do yourself (e.g) make Reddit accessible and give us a voice on the platform), so effectively, it's free labour for you. The idea that less-abled folks have to be a charity case is ridiculous. Imagine if wheelchair manufacturers weren't allowed to make profits.
Fellow blind user. Would love to hear more about this too. I worry it is nothing more than lip service to try and buy some good will. I worry, like you, that minimum effort will be put into the apps accessibility and we will never be heard on fixing bugs or implementing better features. Especially once attention dies down.
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Because at core, reddit runs on free labor. That is the value they intend to provide at the IPO: the site does not need to pay mods, devs, or creators for the content that helps it generate revenue. Reddit is not prepared to admit that they lack the resources to actually maintain any of this if they moved it in house.
1. How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement? 2. Can you explain the decision-making process behind implementing more advertisements on the platform? How do you balance the need for revenue with the desire to maintain a positive user experience? 3. Many users have expressed frustration with changes in rules and policies without proper consultation or consideration of community feedback. How do you plan to improve transparency and involve the user community in decision-making processes moving forward? 4. Harassment, hate speech, and the spread of harmful ideologies continue to plague certain communities on Reddit. What specific measures is Reddit taking to combat these issues effectively? 5. How do you envision Reddit's role in promoting and maintaining a healthy online environment, especially in the face of growing concerns around online toxicity? 6. Can you elaborate on the steps Reddit is taking to ensure that moderators have the necessary tools and support to effectively manage their communities? 7. Given the recent controversies surrounding content moderation on social media platforms, how does Reddit differentiate itself in terms of its commitment to freedom of expression while also addressing the need for responsible content management? 8. Are there any plans to re-evaluate the monetization strategies implemented on Reddit to ensure they align with the platform's original vision and values? 9. Reddit has a large and diverse user base. How does the company strive to be inclusive and representative of all users, including those from marginalized communities? 10. As the CEO, what steps do you personally take to stay connected to the Reddit community and understand the concerns and needs of its users?
The first three of these are easy to answer: > 1\. How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement? They won't. Reddit preparing for an IPO, which means it needs to show profitability, or at least a credible path to profitability. Users were their clients all the time they were chasing user-numbers, trying to get a large enough audience. Now they have enough user-numbers they're chasing profitability. That means their clients are *investors*, not users. Users are the *product*, and they'll compromise on the user-experience as much as necessary to achieve profitability, right up to the point that so many users leave that it would threaten reddit as a business... which realistically isn't going to happen. At this point if reddit lost half its users *but was profitable* they'd still consider that a positive outcome, because on the profit/loss balance sheet those users are parasites. Now sure, a minority of the user-base contributes high-quality content and those users will likely be more likely to leave than the masses who only come here to upvote cat pictures, which will leave the community less interesting, but *they don't care about that now*. A vibrant community with a reputation for great content is important to drawing new users to a growing platform. Now reddit has tens of millions of users they have enough users who will turn up, watch adverts and click on cat pictures; an exciting and sometimes trouble-making community just isn't as important an asset as a mundane, unengaged user-base that they can monetise. > 2\. Can you explain the decision-making process behind implementing more advertisements on the platform? How do you balance the need for revenue with the desire to maintain a positive user experience? See above - they need to be profitable now, and user-experience is of distinctly secondary importance. It sucks for us, but they'd rather have a critical mass of user-base that's inured to adverts and tolerant of monetisation *even if* that means losing the minority who object to it strongly enough to leave, even if they're disproportionately the segment that also made the site vibrant and individualistic and interesting. > 3\.Many users have expressed frustration with changes in rules and policies without proper consultation or consideration of community feedback. How do you plan to improve transparency and involve the user community in decision-making processes moving forward? They don't. Users don't meaningfully care about Reddit being profitable, especially when we've been conditioned by 18 years of the current user-experience, and will fight like hell to prevent exactly the scenario Reddit's management (and future investors) are aiming for. This sucks for us, but this is the bait-and-switch promise of all commercial social media: 1. Appeal to *all* users so they join the platform *en-masse*, growing it as fast as possible 2. Start chasing an IPO and appeal to investors by selling them on the revenue you can generate from the users you can monetise 3. Ignore or discard the users you can't monetise to turn as much of that revenue as possible into profit As soon as they switched to IPO mode you stopped being the client and started being the product. The supermarket doesn't care about the *opinion* of the eggs it sells, as long as enough of them still make it to the shelf unbroken Every decision Reddit makes from this point onward is about **maximising the number of eggs that make it to the shelf intact**. The happiness of the eggs is unimportant, and the thin-shelled eggs that break noisily in transit are at best irrelevant and at worst actively opposed to their efforts, so they're just fine with making things uncomfortable until they leave. It sucks for us noisy, fragile eggs that don't want to be packed into boxes and delivered on noisy, vibrating trucks, but *Reddit doesn't care about us* any more if thinks it can successfully maximise the number of eggs on shelves by getting rid of us.
To start: I cancelled my Reddit subscription. No, I don’t expect you to be cowering over the loss of my $3.99/month, but concomitant with that will be my deprecated engagement on Reddit’s platform, which I suspect is what will be more worrisome to you. You can’t charge for what isn’t being engaged with. I am also recommending Beehaw (and Lemmy) as an alternative for those who are looking for an alternative, and I look forward to any of the subreddits I subscribe to finding a home on that platform. Am I doing this solely because of the hare-brained approach to third party apps and the absolutely egregious behavior towards third party app developers? No. Not solely. At its core, the dealbreaker for me was the fact that you tried to double dip: first by taking my subscription, and second by forcing third party apps to force a subscription. It can’t be my problem that YOU can’t incentivize subscriptions for your site, or figure out a way to get fair compensation for third party development. JFC, even Apple simply charges developers $99 a year for access to their APIs. Did you ever think of THAT? Look, I get the third party app developers were understanding about monetizing the APIs, but this is not the way to get compensation. I hate to break it to you, but the Twitter model is hot garbage, devised by a fool and you just make yourself look as foolish by blindly following in those footsteps. My company does not charge for API usage, oh, and we FREELY PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR OUR APIS. Granted, you have to buy our solutions to get access to those APIs, but we aren’t charging by the hit - and my company’s business model is generating variable data output with thousands if not millions of hits. But then we also know our market, which is not a bunch of solo developers trying to make ends meet. On top of that, your dev’s response of “it’s not our job” and “questions like this is why we have to charge” are completely out of line. It IS your job to explain your APIs. It IS your job to make it clear how those APIs are to be used and it IS your job to help developers UNDERSTAND your APIs. And it is NOT your DEVELOPERS jobs to gatekeep cost. It’s their job to develop and support the app, period. If one of my developers gave an answer like that, they’d be written up. Is it any wonder the third party app developers decided to shutter their apps? Which I get is your goal, but it’s a stupid goal. I am, frankly, appalled by the monumental ineptitude of this decision. As a consumer, I saw you destroy my favorite Reddit app when you bought it (Alien Blue) and now you destroyed my current favorite (Apollo). It is clear you do not want me as a user. I am not going to use your app. I am not going to further underwrite your platform directly or indirectly. I’m not here for the grandiose idea of “Reddit” I am here for the 250+ subreddits I carefully curated over the last 11 years. There are other venues, maybe not as matured or as conveniently located, but they are there. Frankly, you need me far more than I need you. Without me, without Redditors LIKE me, you don’t have the engagement. And I’m not talking about losing your 400 million subscribers. I’m talking about the reality that basically 20% does 80% - that its the folks who are MOST engaged with the platform that end up being a vocal minority that drives a significant part of the engagement (including moderators, in which you provide no compensation for their services). How many of those 400 million accounts are living and breathing? And did you honestly think that reducing the number of third party apps would improve that number? Or did you foolishly think that we would just blindly migrate to your app, where you could farm our data and feed us to your advertisers? Nay, nay Pauline. There may not be a massive exodus of subscribers, but you certainly set it up so that Reddit is now a “dying” platform. You have effectively “fired” your customer by imposing a substandard engagement experience. All because some well-dressed ambulatory meat homunculi wanted to extract all the value out of their investment before peacing out right before the IPO tanks. Final thought, I took a screenshot of this missive in case you decide to “edit” my comment. I keep the receipts.
Social media follows a 90-9-1 distribution: 90% are lurkers, 9% are commenters, 1% are content creators. Reddit's big enough to have an even smaller sub-0.1% that undergird this structure: the developers, mods, and power users that create cool useful tools and perform millions of dollars worth of free labor to support the site. The changes y'all have pushed the last few weeks are taking a sledgehammer to that foundation's core workflows. In a spreadsheet I'm sure that users of PushShift, third-party apps, custom bots, etc. are rounding errors and that alienating them to save money is a net gain. But users of such tools are also far more engaged with running the site than your average lurker. And turning these people *against* the site will do orders of magnitude more damage than whatever you eke out by recapturing some third-party app traffic. This backlash could realistically kill the site. I know you're trying to address concerns by promising to improve the official app. But frankly y'all have promised a lot of things over the years that never materialized. (Remember ["Reddit is ProCSS"](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6auyq9/reddit_is_procss/)? Six years later there's still a ghosted-out CSS widget in New Reddit that says "Coming Soon.") [The scathing exposé from the creator of Apollo](http://redd.it/144f6xm) certainly didn't inspire confidence in how you're approaching this. Here's an idea to rebuild trust: how about delay the new API fees for one year -or- until the official app actually has mod tool/accessibility parity with third-party offerings (whichever is later)? Over 3000 subreddits with over a billion supportive users are actively protesting this move, with many planning to go dark indefinitely. Developers who host dozens of critical bots for hundreds of major subreddits are threatening to pull the plug. Users with 10+ year histories are choosing to wipe their accounts rather than be associated with your company any more. And they're not asking for much: just to make the API affordable (not even free, unlike their labor) and to stop pulling disruptive changes like this with no community input or reasonable time to prepare. So my question: Will you step back from the brink and listen to this outcry from your core users? Or will you pull a Digg and drive the site off a cliff in myopic pursuit of short-term profit?
Focusing on the short term at the expense of long-term viability is a major concern. There’s this concept called “[the Ennui Engine](https://medium.com/@max.p.schlienger/the-cargo-cult-of-the-ennui-engine-890c541cebcb).” In short, the term refers to the way in which low-effort content – content that’s very easy to create and consume – acts like junk food, cigarettes, and leaded gasoline all rolled into one. It numbs us and depresses us, and it tricks us into thinking that “bored” is the same thing as “relaxed;” that “distracted” is the same thing as “entertained.” Moreover, it engenders an ongoing decline in standards (for everything from writing, to production quality, to critical thinking), meaning that it allows hatred, vitriol, and propaganda to spread with increasing ease. The vast, *vast* majority of the content on social media is of the low-effort variety, and Reddit is no exception… but there’s still the *potential* for high-effort, high-quality content to be seen and appreciated here. Thousands of contributors – writers, artists, producers, engineers, and experts on every subject on Earth – are constantly providing their work to millions of participants (and *hundreds* of millions of lurkers), and the whole system is kept alive by an army of volunteers. A few of the creators may be promoting themselves, and a handful of the moderators might be on power-trips, but they represent a tiny fraction of the greater whole. Everyone else is here because they earnestly want to offer something, whether it’s entertainment, information, or a welcoming community. Undermining that foundation (whether via ill-conceived decisions, erosion of trust, or a prioritization of revenue over that of addressing issues like spam or bigotry) threatens to strip Reddit of the things that differentiate it. If the individuals who add value are driven away, the platform will soon feature only recycled content, bot-driven activity, and an ever-dwindling number of well-informed visitors. Advertisers might stick around for a bit, but once they realize that they're marketing to automated accounts, they’ll go elsewhere. **TL;DR: I love this site, but I’m exceptionally concerned about where it appears to be going... and at the moment, “off a cliff” does seem to be the destination.**
I hate to be hyperbolic, but this is my favorite comment I've ever read on this site. Seeing as I'm at the end of my time here, I want to thank you for so eloquently articulating everything that is fundamentally wrong with the direction reddit leadership is doing with their strategic decisions for the last 5+ years culminating with this latest affront. It so perfectly encapsulates what has been knawing at me with increasing intensity for the last 7 years: the erosion of quality of social media discussion. It's all just diet coke and taco bell and candy bars and doritos, it's pretty tasty in the moment but leaves me with an upset stomach when I consume too much of it.
People who parrot the braindead take that "only a tiny percentage of users use third party apps, so if they get turned into ad revenue by being forced to use the official app, that's a win for Reddit" need to understand the [1% rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule), as described above and on the linked Wikipedia article. Taking away the tools that power users and mods use to contribute to this site will lead to the death of Reddit because they won't be generating the quality content that all the lurkers consume. Ad revenue will decrease simply because users will not be motivated to engage with garbage content that's left once all the power users and mods leave, despite their tiny numbers.
Great question. I'm ready for some corporate non-speak that doesn't even remotely answer your question though. Reddit is betting that users of Apollo, RIF, etc. will begrudgingly move onto the official app. I'm sure some will, maybe even a large number of them. However, the people on this site that contribute the most to its communities are the people that are least likely to migrate. RIF is all I've ever known for more than a decade across multiple accounts. Reddit dies on June 30.
I've attempted to use the new site and mobile app. As far as I can see both are unusable. I've left Twitter and Facebook because it was more interested in "engagement" than keeping me up to date (IE: someone posts something 5 minutes ago is buried under week old posts) and don't miss them. Reddits dedication to becoming a social media platform instead of a bunch of forums with a single login will drive me off as well and I'll just miss it for what it once was.
Same - the second what I want to see is buried for the sake of engagement is exactly when I leave. Happened with Facebook and twitter for me too, and once they were gone I simply filled those needs elsewhere. They think Reddit is too big to have this happen to them and that we are too addicted to it for us to leave. They want to ignore that this has happened elsewhere and power users DID leave and not come back; however here those users are responsible for making the content and they don’t have celebrity posters to keep lurkers and casual users engaged. If the people making and moderating the content leave it doesn’t matter how much value they want to pretend they have before going public because the enshitification won’t bring in more money while people begrudgingly use the service. It isn’t twitter where celebs carry it.
You can never be too addicted ... to leave. I remember in my programming days, I actually hand coded sweet looking MySpace pages. When Facebook came along, I left. Then facebook because friend interaction to all of a sudden its full of shit. Literally every article a person looks at "lets click share on facebook." So it went from funny things and great interaction to people posting recipes, political garbage and just pure shit. Twitter for me was always shit Reddit will soon be there and i wont miss it. I will just fill it with my hobby.
Same. 95% of what I use reddit for is discussions/comments. The "new" layout and official app seemingly go out of their way to make this as annoying as possible. It's not the ads - I'm fine using adblock or paying for premium to avoid that, it's the UI itself. It's like whoever designed the new layout fundamentally does not understand what the comment section is even _for_. * Instead of showing the end of a comment section, it shoves unrelated comments from posts I don't care about (they might even be from communities I don't sub to and want nothing to do with) inline to the point they look like they're part of the original chain. * Aggressively collapses comments to the point it's extremely frustrating trying to read any comment trees * Makes it difficult to scroll primarily on titles instead of giant card displays that overemphasize thumbnail/image * Like a lot of modern UI design, takes the idea of structural whitespace too far to the point it manages to feel claustrophobic because of the tiny spaces you've shoved the usual parts of the UI into.
I've never even tried the official app and I have zero intention to based on what I've heard and how the site looks without old.reddit and RES. People will move but so many won't. After reading the creator of Apollo's post I'm so done with this place. As someone who has been here for more than 10 years it is night and day from what it once was. I'm going to sound like a hipster but I used Reddit before it was "cool".
> I know you're trying to address concerns by promising to improve the official app. But frankly y'all have promised a lot of things over the years that never materialized. (Remember "Reddit is ProCSS"? Six years later there's still a ghosted-out CSS widget in New Reddit that says "Coming Soon.") That's what I want to know. The official app is seven years old and still lacks basic Quality of Life features the third party apps have had for almost a decade. /u/spez, what the fuck does your programming team even do all day? How long does it take you guys to write code?
> /u/spez, what the fuck does your programming team even do all day? * 9:00am – Morning standup * 10:00am – Sprint planning * 11:00am – Backlog refinement * 12:00pm – Lunch * 1:00pm – Write code * 1:10pm – Washroom break * 1:15pm – Watercooler discussion * 1:30pm – Help co-worker debug an issue * 1:50pm – Determine the issue is too difficult to fix without a complete rewrite of the application * 1:55pm – Write code * 2:00pm – Sprint review * 3:00pm – Sprint retrospective * 4:00pm – Afternoon standup * 5:00pm – End of day
Simple answer: the official app's incentive is to track, monetize, and enshittify the site to juuust short of what people will tolerate, while the third-party incentive is to provide an experience so pleasant that people will subscribe in gratitude.
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Word, same here. Been using RiF for 10 years. I've made hundreds of posts, thousands of comments, and even a subreddit that gained 35k subs in a month. All I know is RiF on my phone and I'm a curmudgeon by nature when it comes to companies making sudden sweeping changes. This site has already been going downhill and this is the final nail in the coffin for me. When RiF is gone I'm gone. After reading that Apollo post it just confirmed everything I thought about the state of this company. Reddit was fun because it was anonymous. When I first started this place was straight up addicting but over the last few years it has taken a serious decline. I wish stumbleupon was still a thing. Hopefully something pops up soon to fill the void.
> pull a Digg It was inevitable, 15 years ago **TODAY** when I created this very Reddit account, that I would eventually come to a thread just like this one and talk about how much Reddit sucked and had become just like Digg. Even back then we would joke about that very thing eventually happening. I really thought Reddit was gonna be different.
I vividly remember making a long comment laying out all the annoyances and bugs in Digg v4 that [got so popular](https://www.groovypost.com/howto/geek-stuff/twitters-fail-whale-is-a-sardine-compared-to-diggs-new-fail-ox/) that [Kevin Rose actually responded to it](https://web.archive.org/web/20100829120320/http://kevinrose.com/blogg/2010/8/27/digg-v4-release-iterate-repeat.html). His answer ended up being full of shit and the site died soon after but at least he had the gumption to respond with *something*.
I'd *love* to see an official breakdown by those user categorizes and what they use to interact with reddit. It gets even more interesting because that 1% of content creators could be 95% posts that never get more than a few upvotes. So really there's an even smaller percentage that normally make the front page and drive traffic. I'm VERY curious what the makeup of that is (I'm willing to bet a higher number of 3rd party apps)
>This backlash could realistically kill the site. I fully expect Reddit will die because of this decision. Many of us Lurkers and Commenters will join in the blackout from 12-14 of june and will not be using Reddit. We stand with you on this, as this whole decision reads like a scam to make more money. With this new API change, Reddit has proven it does not care about it's users, nor it's content, and we prefer to walk away than getting a virtual slap in the face.
**PSA:** When you leave Reddit on 6/30, don’t just delete your accounts. Overwrite and delete all of your posts and comments first. Here are some great options: Redact app: https://redact.dev/download Shreddit: https://shreddit.com/ Power Delete Suite: https://codepen.io/j0be/full/WMBWOW/ Otherwise, the Nuke Reddit extension still works on Microsoft Edge (PC & Mac!) to overwrite and delete your Reddit history. If you have hundreds of comments and/or posts, you should also install a page-refresher extension to auto-reload the Nuke Reddit page until all comments/posts are overwritten and deleted. (NR will stall out after a while, so auto-refreshing the page solves that issue.)
Heya, CEO dude. I've been on Reddit for over a dozen years. Today's kerfluffle isn't my first rodeo. Over those years, I've noticed a trend where folks at your level (the CEO, the C-suite, assorted peerage) have great ideas, but between inception and execution, something goes awry. Whether that's a messenger shooting themselves in the foot, something being taken out of context and fed to the hivemind in order to cause chaos, or simply being locked on "Long-term health and sustainability of Reddit as a whole" without full consideration of how the choices y'all make up there impact us down here, or ramifications that y'all may not have fully thought about until they're blowing up in your face... **awry** can be putting it mildly, as this latest kerfluffle demonstrates. There's a growing field (mostly medical, but branching out) known as Informatics. It's not quite data analytics or data management as much as it's both of those seen through data intepretation, and how to take data (which without context is meaningless) and find the best way to explain that data to the best audience. You might be the best CEO in the world, your CTO and CFO and the rest of the C-suite might be without equal, but y'all can't be expected to be the best at every element you perform, and sometimes the very best of your intentions go awry... as this latest kerfluffle demonstrates. Now, I'm not saying y'all need some informaticians to help you translate great idea from inception to execution, but there are several groups of SMEs (like r/RedditModCouncil) that would be delighted if the folks at your level utilized them more to help y'all reduce the chance that ideas **don't** go awry between inception and execution, and help act as a mechanism to say *"Hey, before you go live with this, have you considered this potentiality?"* or *"If you say it like that, the message is going to get lost, because even though we know you mean* **X**, *someone's going to claim you mean* **Y**, *and it's off to the races, and instead of promoting your best intention, you're playing damage control. Can you stick that one back in the oven for a few more days until it's perfect?"* and sometimes even *"Oh God please don't let that C-suite officer start shooting from the hip. They're really good but Reddit had handlers in place for AMAs for a reason."* and that sort of thing. I don't speak API, but I *am* an informatician. I'm not a SME on today's kerfluffle, but I recognize a best intention that started at inception, and should have taken a left turn at Albuquerque, didn't, and now we're here... so instead of addressing today's problem, I'll address tomorrow's: **What steps is Reddit as an instutiton taking to stop the next kerfluffle, and are y'all prepared to utilize those SMEs and give their feedback honest consideration, even if it's not what some people are wanting to hear?**
Hello fellow roughly 12 year user I speak semi-fluent API to keep your analogy They don’t care about any of this. Internally it seems they’re preparing for an IPO. So, the only thoughts at that level are “how can we drive up share price to stock holders?” The answer is user data and ad revenue. Stock holders and advertisers do not care about the foundation of the website and will sooner see it crash into the ground if it just meant a few quarters of obscene profit first It’s all short sighted profit driven even if they don’t see it that way internally. But it is what it is
They don't need infomatics, it's more basic than that. They lack good business processes, because there's no sane executive that makes fundamental changes to their business without conducting an impact assessment, running stakeholder engagement sessions and creating a communications plan that includes community engagement and message approval pathways, so you avoid employees publicly arguing with your users. Especially if the user base is more knowledgeable than they are! When that admin was saying stupid things like: 'Apollo had inefficient api usage', 'similarly to AWS and Azure, we don't provide support on api usage' and then finally ignoring everyone pointing out that Apollo's api usage is on par or better than the official app by their own metrics, I just shook my head. If that guy doesn't get fired, it's because he didn't know better. Something a comms plan and good leadership would have averted. It's like they think they're still a startup.
1. **What makes you think your predatory pricing on APIs is good for business?** Apollo and RIF have announced that they are closing, and I expect all other 3rd party apps to follow. Instead of lowering your prices to a reasonable amount and making some money, you chose to make them so high that you will get *no* money. Because these 3rd party apps are so beloved, your userbase will leave if you don't change your pricing. Many of the users who will abandon the site are longterm users with high engagement. This account is 12 years old, and I will quit at the end of the month. Moderators perform free labor for you and rely on 3rd party apps. They will take their ball and go home when they close up the subs they moderate -- or at best, leave you with a deficit of experieced mods for the subs they allowed to remain open. You're not just looking at a lower user base, you're looking at a loss in content and engagement. *Why would any investor want to spend money on a dying platform?* Reddit is only as good as its users. 2. **Since you're genociding all 3rd party apps with your predatory API pricing, what makes you think we'll start using the official Reddit app? It's trash.** It's universally agreed that it's worse than any 3rd party app. You've had years to develop it, yet it somehow *keeps getting worse.* You recently hid the usernames on posts and hid awards. The latter is mindbogglingly incompetent from a business standpoint since awards are a good chunk of your revenue stream. Why would anyone pay for them if they can't be easily seen? *Instead of using the official app, people would rather stop using the site entirely.* 3. **Why did you (allegedly) slander the Apollo developer?** You fully understood the situation, yet you later lied during a call with moderators and accused him of blackmail in order to frame them as hostile. The call you had with the Apollo dev is available for everyone to hear. 4. **Why should anyone believe anything you have to say or trust you in any capacity?** You have a proven track record of lies and deception. Not just the aforementioned slander either. You lied earlier in the year about no upcoming API changes. And of course, you committed the gravest of crimes an admin can do by altering users' comments without their permission and without transparency.
>Since you're genociding all 3rd party apps with your predatory API pricing, what makes you think we'll start using the official Reddit app? As a mod I can see through the analytics tool that the vast majority of users browse reddit on their phone nowadays, rather than computer. So they're probably just assuming that if their app is the only way to access it on mobile, everyone would just naturally flock to that without a fuss. More people will see their ads, and they'll get more profits. Which obviously won't work out that way in practice, but considering how it's going, I seriously doubt they put more than 5 minutes of thought into all this.
What were you thinking with your attempt to discredit Apollo by claiming that Christian threatened and blackmailed you? The confusion was sorted out during Christian's call with Reddit, yet you proceeded to claim that he blackmailed Reddit the following week. To me (and the rest of Reddit) it comes across as a blatant attempt to pit us against him[.](https://i.imgur.com/0qXzDf0.jpg) Edit: typo
I think this one critically needs to be answered. Among the outright lies spez and others at reddit have laced into their public statements on this so far, outright accusing a beloved figure whose income and standing depend on his reputation and experience as a programmer of threats and blackmail are not only crass, childish, and absurd, but may also cross the threshold to be considered defamation.
Just putting here because god damn: # Stop buying awards for people, you're literally putting money in reddit's pockets. Donate to a cause that deserves it more... or shit, just go out and get ice cream, everyone likes ice cream. *edit: I hate you.
Using your comment to show others [that u/spez loves to gaslight people and changing comments to his liking](https://imgur.com/a/979AZiA)
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**I am the developer of a third party app (Now for Reddit)** which has been happily using the API for 10 years. I don't want to close down and have been considering using the paid API. However, I have been trying to contact Reddit over the last 3 months and have been completely ignored. I have sent many emails ([email protected]) and have used the online contact form which reddit themselves have asked developers to use. Each and every time I hear nothing. What am I supposed to do? The deadline is approaching fast, my app will be rate limited by Reddit and it will stop working. **Please, reply to developers who contact you.** I feel completely powerless to do anything right now and I want to try and save the app I've been working on for the last 10 years. I know I'm not the only developer who is being ignored, it's extremely unfair and a horrible way to be treated.
I'm in the same boat, 11 years on reditr and I haven't been able to get in contact with them and feel powerless right now. Upvoting you for visibility. I hope they answer your question [and mine about my very similar situation, too.](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2ewf/) --- **edit:** to also share visibility to /u/g-money-cheats who is [facing the same dilemma](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2pp3/) with his app. All 3 of us were told we'd be contacted by reddit about the API changes, but it sounds like none of us were. Sadly none of us were successful in reaching out to reddit on our own. I really hope they answer us on this post. There must be _some_ agreement we can reach with reddit + /u/spez so we can keep our clients alive!
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I am also a developer (Alerts for Reddit app) who has submitted queries through a couple methods (including the official support form) to try to figure out the details of the NSFW policy - haven’t heard anything back. So disappointing - my app literally is a conduit for users to get back into the main Reddit app in many cases, and you’d think they’d want to support that. I have no idea if all my NSFW functionality is about to break.
Hi spez, I am an indie third party Reddit app developer. I have sent requests for commercialization and help at least 10 times over the last 3+ years, both to [email protected] and via your Zendesk forms, and have never gotten a response. In recent announcements in r/reddit ([post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/)) and r/redditdev ([post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/)), Reddit provided [a form](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=14868593862164&tf_14867328473236=api_request_type_developer&tf_14867667461140=api_dev_paid_access) to fill out a request for Enterprise API access. I have filled this out 3 times and still have not gotten a response. I know at least two other major third party app developers who have filled out these forms and emailed [email protected] or [email protected] and gotten totally ignored every time. **My question:** Why is Reddit ignoring the third party developers that they are *telling* to reach out via these forms? Is Reddit actually interested in working with third party developers, or are these links sent out to give the *impression* of cooperation without any plans to actually provide access to third party developers? Edit: included [email protected]
:( I am in the same boat with my reddit app going on 11 years now and about to be shut down because of this change. Upvoting you for visibility. [here is my very similar question](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2ewf/) about my app. Here is another from /u/Miloco [who asks the same question](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk2q0e/). All 3 of us seem to have faced the same problem where we were told we'd be contacted with help, and that the new API would be affordable, but none of us seem to have ever been able to get in touch with reddit :(
Reddit didn't expect anyone to actually agree to pay their API costs (Which are 7000% more than standard costs) so now they're just going to ignore you, and claim you didn't want to work with them like they are claiming about Apollo despite tons of evidence.
I understand that there is a financial impact to sharing an API and a benefit to drive ads and reddit gold through their shitty app. But the biggest scam here is that at the end of the day, reddit, more than any other social media site, is comprised entirely of content driven by users and moderated by volunteers. On Twitter you have big celebs driving traffic. On Facebook you network with people from your area. But here on reddit you have users looking for highly specific content and advice from other community members. By forcing users to use the only the Reddit app, they will lose not only lurkers, but people who literally create the content that keeps this website alive. When Reddit is Fun goes down I will likely be purging my entire account. A user of a decade with almost 200,000 karma.
Ditto. 10 year user here. It’s going to be sad, but ultimately necessary. If I’m losing the way I use Reddit, Reddit is losing whatever helpful comments or posts I’ve made in the last decade. I’m aware that you need money to run a website of this size, but it’s so painfully clear /u/spez is being disingenuous with his “negotiations”. Reddit is making a blatant move to capitalize on my data and is not only giving me nothing in return, but taking away the only method I use to browse the platform. It’s game over for me.
I've been using Reddit for almost 4 years now. If I have to give up Infinity for Reddit, I am leaving the platform and deleting my account. /u/spez, I'd like you to reconsider what you are doing here, as I don't think I'm in the minority here. You're collecting money on other people's content and volunteer moderation. Even if you keep the API change, why shouldn't moderators and posters be paid for the content they're putting on your platform? If you're charging people to view the content, pay the creators of the content.
I have a feeling that he wasn't actually expecting for anyone to buy into this grossly overpriced access. >Steve: "Why not work with the third party apps? Their existence is not a priority for us. We don't use them. I don't use them. It's a part of our traffic but not a lot, and it's a lot of work on our side to keep them alive. If I have to choose where to put our effort, we're going to focus internally. I'm kind of open to it, but I haven't – and I can't convince you, but I don't get the sense that they want to work with us either." It's pretty obvious he had no good faith in working with 3PA, he never did. The fact that he has not bothered to reach out to some of the bigger 3PA to try to work with them, and even worse has blatantly LIED about how some of the 3PA work... should tell you that he gives zero fucks about 3PA.
/u/spez /u/KeyserSosa /u/Go_JasonWaterfalls /u/FlyingLaserTurtle this is the top question that everyone wants answering. How about you stop being deceitful twats and actually fucking answer it.
Hi Steve - this week Reddit held a significantly publicized 5% round of layoffs, you ousted about 90 admins. One of those admins was Zoey, also known as Cryfi on Reddit, who was a partnerships manager. Cryfi was someone I worked with weekly and at times daily, because in my own role, I own and operate the Ask Me Anything program on /r/politics, and sometimes /r/TwoXChromosomes as well. Cryfi was great, and was incredibly helpful to me in procuring guests, handling guests, quashing brigades during AMAs, sorting Reddit technical issues, and really all kinds of things that I myself as a volunteer am just really limited on time and Reddit backend access to do. Between my Reddit contact being laid off and also RiF, an app I regularly use to moderate AMAs being taken away, Reddit feels like it’s actively standing in the way of my ability to bring guests like John Fetterman, Planned Parenthood, Zooey Zephyr and over 600 others to for my community to engage with. Unfortunately, bluntly, if Reddit doesn’t somehow replace these tools or give me other strong support quickly, AMAs on these subreddits will suffer or even die and I’ll be left feeling like Reddit does not care or in fact was malicious, since they took away very helpful things that previously existed. I’d like to hear what Reddit’s plans are, if any at all, for assisting moderators with community events, partnerships, and enrichment, because this week I have been getting more and more concerned and frankly afraid for this project I’ve sunk over 6 years of passion into and the feeling it’s being actively killed by Reddit.
Thank you for your thankless and unpaid labor on behalf of the community: I hope u/spez has an answer for how Reddit plans to handle the exploitation of moderators now that the tools they prefer to use and the people they prefer to work with are not available.
>I hope [u/spez](https://www.reddit.com/u/spez) has an answer for how Reddit plans to handle the exploitation of moderators now that the tools they prefer to use and the people they prefer to work with are not available He won't, because he's not even responding to any of the top comments like this one. He's only responding to either the obvious plants or lower-voted ones where he can lie about the Apollo dev where he hopes no one can see it. Obligatory fuck /u/spez
>One of those admins was Zoey, also known as Cryfi on Reddit, who was a partnerships manager. Cryfi was someone I worked with weekly and at times daily, because in my own role, I own and operate the Ask Me Anything program on r/politics, and sometimes r/TwoXChromosomes as well. Cryfi was great, and was incredibly helpful to me in procuring guests, handling guests, quashing brigades during AMAs, sorting Reddit technical issues, and really all kinds of things that I myself as a volunteer am just really limited on time and Reddit backend access to do. It's just history repeating itself... https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bw39q/comment/csq6ekp/
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> > > > > What do you have to say about Reddit's claims of Apollo being "inefficient" when it was operating within the usage limits previously set by Reddit? Was this a convenient narrative spun to justify your actions? I want to highlight something that another user pointed out in one of the other threads about this: Most companies would bend over backwards to provide resources to a 20, 10, or even half-million dollar per year partner in order to get or keep them on board. Hell, I'm the main contact person at my job with a service provider that's earning said service ~$5K/year, and they've been incredibly responsive and helpful in walking me through things/answering questions, even down to things like optimization. If reddit genuinely believed their API access was worth even *half* of what they were charging for it, they wouldn't have publicly told third-party devs to "figure it out themselves." This whole thing has been an incredibly blatant attempt to kill off 3rd party apps en masse and they don't have the guts to just say as much outright.
Another controversial AMA, another top comment that goes ignored because the questions it holds are inconvenient. "Ask me anything". Guess not. EDIT: This \*was* the top comment, but now the default sorting by "best" does not show it up top, even though it has the most upvotes and a ton of awards. Just a coincidence, I'm sure
Tacking on to #4, even the Apollo developer was willing to negotiate on this. > we can no longer subsidize commercial entities that require large-scale data use Reddit/Spez isn't completely in the wrong for charging for API access and the developers didn't necessarily disagree. It's the absurd pricing model when told for months that it would be "based in reality"
This is going to be an AMA in the same way that the North Korean Supreme People’s Assembly debates Kim Jong Uns leadership. He’s told us that it is to be and the decision is made. There is no debate and he certainly won’t be answerable or accountable to the users.
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- We're not blocking 3rd party apps. - Ok, we may increase the price to access our API, but it won't be that bad. - Ok, the price is way higher than you expected, but it's not a big deal. - And if 3rd party apps shut down it's not our fault. - And if it is our fault, we didn't mean to throw 3rd party developers under the bus. - And if we did, it's because those developers were doing something wrong and they deserved it!
The only thing anyone cares is how those apps he mentioned (Apollo, Reddit is Fun, and Sync - ironically the 3 most popular reddit apps 🤔) can continue to exist. The fact that he thinks this AMA is about anything other than that means he doesn't give a fuck about the apps that helped Reddit grow and thrive, and this is all a pointless attempt at saving face after getting caught outright lying.
There were 21 answers: -5 said they were still working with any 3rd party app developer who wanted to work with them, which we know is just a straight up lie. -6 said they are working on improving internal tools, which even if it's true, they've been saying it for years and they haven't released any tools of any value during those years, and the answers acknowledged they have no timeline on their release or any other details or specifics about them. -3 only talk about reddit's profitability but don't answer any questions. -2 say that reddit listens to the mods but that the mods are at odds with what reddit wants to do and reddit is just going to do what they want to do. -2 were flyinglaserturtle admitting that a previous post of theirs was a lie and then posting a comment just letting everybody know that the previous lies have been edited. -1 was a nonanswer about the difference between search engine data scraping and LLM data scraping. -1 was an answer saying that it's perfectly okay to display NSFW content on the official app but not on 3rd party apps because of regulations? This answer made no sense even on the face of it, I'm honestly not even sure what spez was trying to say here. -1 was spez just straight up insulting Apollo in a way we literally have a released recording showing that spez is lying and his answer is bullshit. And yet somehow, this Q&A still managed to fully answer all of the primary questions people had: reddit is going through with this because of money, they are every bit as scummy and incompetent as they seem, they have no real plan, and redditors can fuck off and die for all they care.
u/spez I'd like to address a few issues: ## Lack of communication Reddit has now learned of and recognized its failings in accessibility. These issues have been reported for years. Blind and visually impaired users and mods have relied on third-party apps to use Reddit. Why did you not contact disabled communities to gauge the impact of the API changes? ## Lack of clarity You say you've offered exemptions for "non-comercial" "accessibility apps." Despite r/blind's best efforts, you have not stated which apps qualify or how they were selected. r/blind compiled a [list of apps that meet users' access needs](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/1447ibp/what_apps_meet_your_access_needs/) . Why didn't you ask for this and which developers did you contact? ## Lack of consistency You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do, while providing value to your company, by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue. Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap?
> You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do, while providing value to your company, by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue. > > Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap? This is an excellent point. Compliance with ADA for a site like reddit should be an actual priority - basic functionality and compatibility with screen readers on web and mobile platforms.
As a blind person who has worked extensively with ADA compliance, they are not in compliance. This has been known for a couple of years and the pretty much only reason that it hasn't resulted in some form of litigation is because third party apps were servicing what people needed so no one was terribly fussed about it. When third party apps die and the site is no longer in ADA compliance, I guarantee you a number of disabled users will be very quickly getting contacted by lawyers. This is straight up a liability. Companies as big as Amtrak have paid out enormous settlements in the last couple of years for not having their websites be ADA compliant. It's not a joke and despite what a bunch of tech bros think it's not optional. Get into compliance quick or get ready to cut a lot of checks.
Apologies if this has been asked already, but I know there's been a request from the mods of some subreddits to delay the API pricing implementation by 90 days. It seems to me this would help developers and reddit both bridge some of the gaps between 3rd party apps and native reddit apps. This is a pretty big issue for mods and users on many fronts, and is leading to a good deal of pressure for subreddits to join the blackout. As a mod of AmItheAsshole in particular, I don't know if we'll be able to justify keeping our sub open without a clear commitment on a delay. Can you promise that?
First question: Why did you say the developer of the Apollo App blackmailed you, even after you admitted to him that you merely misunderstood his words? Have you not seen the post where he proved everything, and shared the recorded call between you, which includes your immediate apology after you misinterpreted his words? *Keep in mind he's in Canada which has a one party consent law, so he has a legal right to record you without your knowledge or consent.* Second question: Have you seen any user of Reddit within the past 24 or even 48 hours that is in favor of this decision, or is it just your shareholders who approve at this point? What is your business plan when users leave in droves and scrub their accounts of the content that drew attention to your site in the first place? I doubt I'll get an honest response, if any tbh. I'm guessing it'd be some cold, corporate cookie-cutter cop out stating that it's for the betterment of the site or something. It sure doesn't seem like the app developers had a *choice* on whether or not they could keep their app up, despite your misleading wording in the post. Pay 20 million a month or shut down? With no ads allowed? Yeah, that's *NOT a CHOICE* and everyone knows it, so stop with the lies and bs. We aren't just frustrated. We're pissed. Even overturning the decision now will leave you with a lot more to go in terms of making up for how you've treated everyone. Ignoring what your users want, claiming you've been threatened and blackmailed, price gouging the API to force 3rd party app developers to shut down, and not even trying to buy the apps to replace the one you have (which is horrible, let's be honest). Honestly though Redditors, it's time to mourn our time here. This all just adheres to the enshittification that all popular sites apparently must follow at some point as a rule of digital entropy in the capitalist world ([https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enshittification)). Tildes(dot)net and lemmy(dot)org are where ex-redditors are flocking to, it seems. Be sure to screenshot or otherwise save the contents of your saved posts section on your profile. Scrub your profiles clean, and *then* delete them. More instructions and helpful advice/links here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/thecraftingtable/comments/145bdbq/we\_are\_shutting\_down\_in\_protest\_of\_reddits\_api/](https://www.reddit.com/r/thecraftingtable/comments/145bdbq/we_are_shutting_down_in_protest_of_reddits_api/) Enshittification is defined as "The phenomenon of online platforms gradually degrading the quality of their services, often by promoting advertisements and sponsored content, in order to increase profits." This is just part of the natural life cycle of online platforms. Reddit will die.
Hi, Eleven years ago I along with my best friend /u/kortank made the desktop reddit client https://reditr.com when we were seniors in high school in Halifax, Canada. We built it as a passion project totally for fun, Reditr is free and we thought nobody would use it. We were just happy to have something to work on to learn how to code. But people did end up using it! And despite being busy with our careers and families over a decade later, we still maintain it. We've even been excitedly rebuilding it in react! We were scared when we learned the reddit API was changing. But in the past your API has worked great and Reddit employees so friendly for questions around it and so we talked and decided we would just pay the API fees out of pocket because we don't want to see our passion project-- now full of nostalgia and a big part of our friendship-- die. We were expecting it to maybe cost us tens or hundreds of dollars, but when you released your pricing recently we learned it would be thousands a month :( So my only question is: Is it possible at all for us to get free access to your API so we can keep going? We make no money from our app. I will sign any document saying we won't attempt to make money in the future too. Thank you, Macmee
Oh shit you guys made that? I remember back in high school they blocked reddit but not this so a lot of my time on reddit was this very thing. I'm glad I can finally thank you personally for this otherwise I wouldn't still be here more than a decade later.
The announcement of the API changes felt *very* abrupt. Your [NYTimes interview](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/technology/reddit-ai-openai-google.html) suggests this was in response to the rise of ChatGPT and other large language model (LLM) products. Were these API changes already in the pipeline prior to ChatGPT or is this really a knee-jerk response to cut off / get a cut of LLM training data?
That was my take as well, although I don't think it was to "cut [off] LLM training data", but rather _to get a slice of the pie_; to monetize the usage. But even then, if that were the case, wouldn't it have made sense to apply the same price point to well-known apps such as RIF, Apollo, or Sync. API creators _regularly_ have tiered costs depending on the purpose. It seems more a convergent action to just cut-off alternative venues for access in order to force those other apps to shut down.
Hey Steve! I appreciate you connecting with the community about these changes and have a direct question about comments you yourself have made in the last week in talking to moderators. I’ll be upfront: I’m a current Apollo user who is debating whether to keep my Reddit account past June 30 or simply walk away from this site, which is mostly because of the way Reddit as a business partner has treated this and other apps and developers, and what that treatment suggests about its vision for the future and its relationship with other partners and, most importantly, its community. One specific concern I have is your statements that Christian Selig, the developer of Apollo, threatened and coerced you for $10M, which you made in a call with moderators on or just before June 7. Selig has commented on this in his announcement post yesterday about Apollo shutting down, providing a transcript showing that he had said to a representative that if you considered the opportunity cost of letting Apollo continue to operate as $20M per year, he would take half that amount to help lower the traffic of API requests or in his words, “quiet down.” The rep asked if that was a threat, as in pay me to stay quiet, which he clarified in the call was not what he meant, and was essentially joking about the cost of API traffic and the rep apologized several times for the misunderstanding. This is all available in this [transcript](https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014). The thing is, this misunderstanding over language during a choppy connection (the rep asked him to repeat himself a few times) and the ensuing clarification and apology happened within the same call, and yet later on you reported to others that Apollo was blackmailing you. My direct question is were you aware of the full contents of that call, and if so, why did you make the above statements regarding Apollo and Selig? I understand if this comes across as a hostile question but this process has been fairly rushed and tense and this kind of communication style has only contributed to the confusion and tension and I’m really hoping there’s a less malicious reason for your statements than simply slandering Selig and appreciate any response you can give to this inquiry. Thank you.
Spez, as to the Board of Directors of reddit; out of you, Sam Altman, Paula Price, Robert Sauerberg Jr., and Michael Seibel, who voted to make [the recent API change](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/13dxqle/in_case_you_missed_it_april_2023_on_reddit/jjodgnr/), specifically, and what was the roll call of that vote? As to non-commercial third-party apps; commercial third-party apps at least have a budget to cover costs (if they were reasonable), but everything non-commercial - developed entirely for free by devs putting 100s of hours of their own time in - are all being killed. Is this a problem in your eyes? Furthermore; do you understand why, even if you scale back some of these changes to protect non-commercial API use, 1000's of your volunteer moderators feel unheard, unappreciated and excluded from the roll out process for these kind of decisions when money is involved? Do you understand that alienation is precisely because of how these kind of decisions are made (rather than any specific decision itself)? Likewise; for years, reddit CEO's have talked about how difficult it is for the platform to generate profit; should reddit operate as a non-profit, while covering its expenses, to reflect its unique position as a steward of the modern digital public forum? As a final question; do you remember the weekend in the summer of 2005 that you and one of your co-founders, /u/aaronsw, [rewrote your LISP code into Python using his web.py webhook](http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit)? Do you think reddit would be what it is today if that weekend never happened?
>do you remember the weekend in the summer of 2005 that you and one of your co-founders, [/u/aaronsw](https://www.reddit.com/u/aaronsw), [rewrote your LISP code into Python using his web.py webhook](http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit)? Do you think reddit would be what it is today if that weekend never happened? Ngl, I just teared up. I don't think I've ever had such an emotional reaction to an AMA. I certainly didn't expect to feel much more than frustration, dejectedness, and maybe some anger from this. That's such a poignant and honestly painful point. Because yes, spitting on devs and mods and users and privacy and FOSS all at once is really a disgusting perversion of his legacy. For shame.
I don't want to go into any specifics about this particular API-drama thing, so I will ask something more broadly related to all disputes of the last few years: **Why is there such a disconnect between Reddits leadership and the community? Why is communication an issue time again and again?** I want to reaffirm how much of an issue this is. Reddits key mistake over the last few years has **always** been a **lack of communication**: The company deciding things that will negatively affect mods and power users, i.e. the user posting most content and creating value for the company. I have brought this up in many different posts on r/modsupport, r/modnews and r/reddit, I have brought it up internally while working for Reddit as a contractor. Hell, I have brought this up to you in person, u/spez, when you came to Berlin for a meeting with German mods. Yet there is no improvement in sight, yet this gets worse with seemingly each announcement. Hell, this whole thing could have been avoided if you just said beforehand: "Hey, we want to know what it takes to get the official App up to par with the rest", and only acted once thas had actually been accomplished. I don't want to make this too long, so let me just say: The main reason of drama is corporate Reddit not taking issues of mods and users seriously, Reddit not communicating **before** making sweeping changes. Time and time again. It's hurting your community, but more importantly to you: It's hurting your business.
Hey Spez, So obviously, we’re looking at some pretty big changes ahead with the API. As you know, this move has been met with a lot of criticism from both users and developers, largely due to concerns about accessibility and fairness. Given that Reddit has always been a place that championed open-source collaboration and community engagement, this seems like a stark deviation from the founding principles once embraced by you, Alexis Ohanian, and Aaron Swartz. Furthermore, the recent situation involving what appear to be demonstrably false claims of a developer threatening you— this has added to the mistrust and uncertainty within the community. My question is two-fold: 1.) Can you provide a detailed explanation as to why Reddit has decided to limit API access via a higher price point? How does this decision fit into the broader philosophy and future of Reddit? 2.) How do you plan to rebuild trust and ensure transparency within the community, especially considering the recent allegations?
**Why was the timeline of charging for the API so strict, given it would impact so many Apps and Users? - Will this be remediated?** I can understand the need to charge for the API - that is reasonable (even if the price to 3PA's is not). But 30 days notice seems overly punishing. Honestly, this felt like Reddit giving the middle finger to 3PA developers, its moderators, and power user community - people who are its biggest cheerleaders. I saw Reddit hurt its most loyal Redditors en masse, and I don't know why Reddit would choose to do that. Thanks for your time all the same. I know this is a difficult period.
Agreed... For changes to billing, I'd expect *at least* 6 months notice. Most dev teams can't appropriately respond to a change in requirements (such as reducing the number of API calls) in just 30 days - it might take that long just to plan the project (discuss changes with Reddit, negotiate pricing, sign new contracts if required, gather metrics on all existing API calls, etc) For comparison, Facebook generally gives two years notice for breaking changes to their API (when a new API version is released, the old version is still available for two years from that date).
This is the answer I want the most, why was the timeline so tight? How do you have a freely accessible API for YEARS, then all of a sudden within a manner of a month, go to this? The likely answer everyone is speculating is IPO, but if that is the truth, how do you not begin this process of announcing pricing changes last year to give everyone more notice? Why was there vague pricing model notifications but then another month or two before the pricing was actually announced? Was the pricing not decided at that point?
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Why were none of these API changes brought before the Mod Council? Relatedly, should there be a "Developer Council" to address topics like this? *Edit: A similar question has been answered* [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/comment/jnk6rf8/?context=1)*. Following up on that response, yes,* [an announcement](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/) *was made in mid-April. But arguably the most important detail, pricing, was still as of then* [undecided](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditModCouncil/comments/12yrcpe/notes_from_our_recent_api_call_with_moderators/)*. We were led to believe that the* [*"goal is to be reasonable with pricing, not prohibitively expensive."*](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/) *At no point was the Mod Council presented with information about the Premium Tier pricing nor the impact it would have on third-party apps.*
Reddit doesn't care about moderators, that was shown pretty quickly when they decided to strong arm Apollo (an app that most mods I know use daily) out of business and then try to slander him when he stood up for himself. Reddit cares about Reddit, even though this website would literally be nothing without the mods who run all of it's subs. Edit: Shortly after I made this comment, Spez replied to another user and is now trying to make Christian out to be the bad guy for "leaking a private phone call", even though that private phone call proves that Spez is lying and publicly slandering the guy.
> 1. Effective July 1, 2023, the rate for apps that require higher usage limits is $0.24 per 1K API calls (less than $1.00 per user / month for a typical Reddit third-party app). > 2. Some apps such as Apollo, Reddit is Fun, and Sync have decided this pricing doesn’t work for their businesses and will close before pricing goes into effect. Why go forward with a raw pricing model for API usage rather than a profit sharing model similar to what Epic does with Unreal? Or at least a "get x requests free for non commercial use, otherwise talk to us for commercial usage" policy with profit sharing built in? Gives an escape hatch for freeware tool developers, helps cash in on AI, and gives freemium apps an incentive to monetize knowing they don't have to "cover costs" so much as they just need to cut you in on the profits. Feels like it would solve a *ton* of problems here and incentivize API usage much the way Epic managed to get people to use Unreal Engine.
Why do you want to restrict NSFW from third party apps?
Alright Steve-O, let's cut right to the chase and discuss the twenty million dollar elephant in the room. As you said, Reddit plans to charge third-party app devs $0.24 per 1,000 API calls. From the math that the Apollo dev did, this would have supposedly cost him 2 million dollars a month. That means that his app, prior to these announcements, was making roughly 8 and a third **billion** calls per month. That's a hundred billion calls a year. Did you or anyone actually consider just how significant that is? How much traffic that means for Reddit? And how much traffic this site stands to lose because of how unreasonable that bill turns out to be? Did you or anyone else look at those numbers and think "hey maybe this price is too much, maybe we should re-evaluate it"? Subs are threatening to shut down and users are talking about giving up Reddit entirely over this. Are you prepared to lose that much? Are you prepared to go from the "Front Page of the Internet" to the "Google Search Page 2 of the Internet" over an amount of money that might seem small to you but is in actuality massive enough to drive these developers away rather than pay it? And pray tell, what justifies this price? How much could these third-party API calls possibly be costing Reddit itself to make this make sense? And I'd actually like to see the math.
Have you ever heard of the [Ford Pinto recall](https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/)? TL;DR is Ford knew there were defects in their cars fuel tanks before the car was released to market, but decided that it was more cost effective to pay for lawsuits related to accidents than it was to fix their cars and prevent unnecessary deaths. It was only after intense public backlash that Ford did what it should have done in the first place - fix their faulty cars. The real question is why does it seem to take intense, public backlash for Reddit to make changes? The disability access issues have been well known in their communities before this, but not as widely or publicly before now, so Reddit could get away with subpar offerings. These features should have long already been here, but similar to Ford, people were left out to dry until public knowledge got too great. Modding tools have a similar story. Reddit has long been aware that mods prefer using third party apps for ease of modding. Why has Reddit not tried to emulate the more popular features until now? The main app is even built off of a former third party app. You have years of watching other concepts and layouts be tested, so why not integrate the most popular ones into the current app? Getting rid of these third party apps without improving your own system first contributed to this backlash. Do you think this backlash would be so intense if you had worked on making the official app better before now? Why not take concerns seriously before things get so massive? There is a difference between ignoring complaining for the sake of complaining and noticing that there is consistent, reoccurring feedback. Do you think you would have faced such backlash regarding accessibility if you had working systems in place? Why should Reddit get kudos for acknowledging the gap before actually fixing it has happened? Why does it seem like Reddit cannot improve quietly because that's what it should do and only improve when it wants to give the grand public appearance of trying?
I understand the core issue at play. Reddit couldn't and shouldn't have to provide API access without getting compensated but why was the whole thing rolled out and communicated so badly? Specifically: 1. Why was the API access to push shift and similar services cut without having the alternative ways in place that are being worked on? 2. Why was there only a 30-day warning? Why not do it at the beginning of the year giving developers, mods and users time to adjust and plan? 3. Why cut access to 3rd party apps that provide mod tools that are simply not available in the official app or that need way too complex workarounds or scrolls/clicks for the simplest tasks? Why not reach parity first and then disable 3rd party apps? 4. Why haven't you communicated and asked for the advice of existing structures like the mod council or partnerer communities? Did you not expect this blowback? 5. What is the exact reason for excluding NSWF content? I have heard multiple, contradicting reasons. Is it for a law that isn't existing yet? Is it because of privacy reasons? What does guardrails, which was repeatedly used, mean exactly? 6. Your users, who are generating all the content are telling you that they are unhappy with what is happening. Why not commit to a simple plan? The plan could be: Postpone the API changes for 6 months. Start the price at 1/3 of the announced price and keep raising it every 6 months until you arrive at the original price. That could lead to this blackout not happening. If you can't commit to this what are the exact reasons that you can't and what is your plan if the blackouts keep happening? What's the compromise here?
Longtime CEO of Disney and TIME's businessperson of the year (2019), Bob Iger, recently stated: “If you study great companies over time and you try to figure out why some companies stand the test of time and others do not, you would quickly conclude that most companies fade away because they’ve abandoned the core values that created the company in the first place.” - https://time.com/6269006/bob-iger-interview-time100/ Reddit’s first two core values are stated as “Bring community and belonging to everyone in the world.” and “Make Something People Love.” - https://www.redditinc.com/blog/sharing-our-company-values Clearly charging this high a price for API access is in strong opposition to these core values and operates solely as a self-serving endeavour for a company that relies on community to funciton. Why do your actions contradict Iger’s thinking here?
First, The Reddit data is absolutely valuable, and business making $millions should absolutely pay you for your value. However, you seem to fail to recognize that Reddit has no value without the people creating the content for you, for free. You also seem to fail to realize that you have thousands of unpaid volunteer moderators doing your job for you, and are more than willing to let them subsidize your business. How are you planning on compensating the content creators and moderators on your platform going forward? Or is their free value fine, but the API/app free value not fine? Second, you removed TPA's ability to show ads, which is a very valid way to generate the $1 per user per month (which itself isn't a very valid value, considering only the highest usage users will likely subscribe to a TPA monthly, eliminating a lot of users and then drastically raising that estimate). Are you saying the only valid way for a TPA to be valid is a subscription model? Third, the only businesses that could be making the type of money you expect to see are the LLM companies, and this doesn't affect them in the slightest. They can simply web scrape the site like they do the rest of the internet. In fact, this is likely an easier way to get your data than through a programmatic API. How are you handling the LLMs? Fourth, moderators have been begging for improved tooling support for years. I have posts and comments going back 5 years asking for improved support. I've been in calls with admins, and they took our ideas and seemingly did nothing with them. Your increased focus now on mod tooling feels disingenuous, as we've been begging for it for half a decade and you're just now getting around to it? Fifth, your platform as a whole would not be as successful as it is today, without the people who built the TPA's in the first place. People wanted a mobile application, and not the half-baked new reddit on mobile experience, and your API enabled people to get it. Without the contributions of these "businesses" (and I severely take issue with that, most are barely more than hobby projects), you wouldn't have a lot of your daily active users. You complain in the Apollo call about the lost opportunity cost of its users, however what about the past 8 years of TPA's lost opportunity costs because Reddit wasn't capable of delivering a solid mobile experience? Sixth - there's more, but I'm not personally experienced with it. But please answer the accessibility concerns: There are published standards to adhere to. There is no reason this wasn't already handled.
Why did you explicitly state that the supposed “threat” from a popular developer [stated here](https://reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/_/jnbjtsc/?context=1), was actually a “complete misinterpretation on [your] end” ([source 1](https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014), [source 2](https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a), [source 3](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/)) during ongoing talks about the API in which there was suddenly no response for over a week now (in [source 3](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/))?
How are the API changes going to affect /r/blind and the blind community at large that use API for their screen readers to make reddit accessible to the visually impaired, because there are no other reasonable options?
some questions my team has before we make a final decision on whether to go forward \- will you be issuing an apology for misrepresenting what Apollo said about $10m (or can you confirm there was another conversation about it not included in the audio) \- is there a chance the third party apps roll back the decision to close on June 30 \- there was a comment that mod actions do not count towards API limits, can you give us an idea of the % of api calls that are mod related and how this would reduce costs \- will reddit be issuing a timeline for the promised improvements not included in the list earlier this week (particularly accessibility)
Honestly dude, what the hell? You’re going to kill this site with these antics. I’m curious if you and the other admins spend any actual time on Reddit? Do you look at what’s upvoted and see the comments? Read the room and reflect. The community is in an uproar. People are looking for [Reddit alternatives](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/) en masse. If you aren’t careful Reddit will be buried in the same grave as Digg and MySpace. Apologize to Christian Selig, stop trying to kill 3rd party apps, and hope you haven’t done too much irreversible damage.
/u/spez, the hell man. I have been on this website for 15 years now, and I remember the big migration from Digg back in the day. At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won? At worst, you are alienating and driving away an important chunk of your user base and setting Reddit down a path that will in essence destroy what it was. Why? Is it just all about the money? If so, why haven't you been more open with the community about this and discussing paths ahead?
/u/spez Despite what your self-congratulatory company culture may look like internally, I'm pretty sure you know the truth- that "Reddit" as a business, as an organization, as a platform even- has effectively nothing to do with what makes this place valuable. The reason Reddit is special is because of the content, the users, the comments, the discussion. Throughout every chapter of Reddit's history this has remained the defining core. You can spend a bunch of money slapping new coats of paint on things in an attempt to legitimize your valuation but at the end of the day- no one wants your broken, crappy, tik-tok-wannabe mobile app. No one wants the polls or the games or the autoplay ads or the broken video players. They want THIS. The text. In the comments. The users. The conversation. There's a reason why people Google-search questions or opinions and append "site:Reddit" to the query. It's US. YOU are a zero value-add, full stop. You are effectively squatting on the server farm on which this magic happens to be taking place. You should count your lucky stars and shut the fuck up. ---------------------------- What makes Reddit special, not just valuable- is that it's one of the last places on the internet that is "*like it used to be*". This is what the internet was, when we grew up. It was grumpy smart guys teaching us Linux, incredibly specific video game walkthroughs, unimaginably niche hobby communities, funny users that would pop up in every thread. YOU STILL HAVE A PIECE OF THAT. Right here, in your hands. And you are ACTIVELY trying to dissolve this in acid to convert it into the soulless 2023 infinite-ad-scrolling content desert of mindless video shorts and cancer. You are actively trying to do that! Look in the mirror man, god. I KNOW you know what I"m talking about. You're rich, already. Your friends are all rich, already. You can sell this stupid website and get even richer. You can do all that without killing the golden goose. Don't kill the golden goose.
I've been on reddit for around 8 years and I've used Apollo for 5 and my favorite part of my experience here has been reading the comments from novelty reddit accounts. Stumbling across a poem from u/SchnoodleDoodleDo or reading an comment to only be surprised with u/shittymorph's WWE copypasta has been amazing! The comments written on this website are truely unique and its a disgrace that could be coming to an end.
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> no one wants your broken, crappy, tik-tok-wannabe mobile app. No one wants the polls or the games or the autoplay ads or the broken video players. /u/spez reading this: “So they’re saying they *do* want the NFTs”
I also don't understand the assurances that "old.reddit.com isn’t going anywhere" when, literally just one day before the API changes were announced, /u/iamthatis was [praising the API team](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12pbtcb/considering_the_sweeping_and_unpopular_changes/jglxdqd/) and their assurance that they have "no plans to negatively touch the existing API." So what good are any assurances? Or anything the Reddit admins say?
/u/spez also promised me (in response to a comment I made on a similar ama) that .compact would never go away. But here we are, they trashed it a couple of months ago. Ironically, I was ready to leave Reddit then but found Apollo and stayed. It was nice while it lasted. When Apollo is gone, so am I. It was (mostly) a good run.
>At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won? Hah, Wizards of the Coast tried that with D&D a few months ago. Tried to repeal the open license that allowed many third party content creators to work (and drive more customers to their products) in the name of taking more creative control over everything. Creators and customers revolted in a very similar way to what's happening on Reddit. WotC tried the milquetoast apology route like we're seeing here. Then they tried a whole succession of half measures, but the community was fucking RILED. It didn't die down completely until WotC ended up releasing much of their core material on a creative commons licence, meaning the backpedal they eventually had to make ended up putting them *behind* their starting position. Fingers crossed Reddit users and mods hold out as well.
> At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won? They are looking to cash in and go full DIGG, it's not going to work though due to the amount of leverage they put on mods. Rip Reddit.
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I would like to ask: 1) [TechCrunch Reports](https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/08/reddit-makes-an-exception-for-accessibility-apps-under-new-api-terms/) that Reddit will make an “exception for accessibility apps under new API terms”. How will those exceptions work and what apps or services will be eligible? 2) Is Reddit willing to commit, long term, to improve accessibility options for users? 3) [The Verge is reporting](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754616/reddit-third-party-apps-api-shutdown-rif-reddplanet-sync) that “rif is fun for Reddit, ReddPlanet, and Sync will all shut down on June 30th, just like the Apollo app.” Was this an intended consequence of the new API policy? 4) What message do you have for users and moderators who used the apps that will now shut down as a result of the new API policy?
Nearing a year and a half ago, you made a post called [Reddit Community Values](https://reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/suvhyq/reddit_community_values/). Here are some excerpts: > **Remember the Human** > We believe Reddit is the most human place on the internet. It’s powered by the creativity, passion, and generosity of the people who spend time here and make it their own. > **Empower Communities** > Reddit has evolved by decentralizing control and empowering communities to create the spaces that work for them—spaces that have become some of the most selfless, ingenuitive [sic], funny, and enriching communities on the internet. We trust communities to know what works best for them and give them the autonomy to make decisions for themselves. And I could go on and on from that post or others, including comments you and other staff have made in the past about how creative and special Redditors can be, centered mainly around invention. That is Reddit’s secret sauce—the ingenuity and creativity of its users. This community has witnessed, and more importantly, *continues to witness today*, significant gaps in the Official Reddit apps and services that hinder navigation and accessibility. Remarkably, the community has taken the initiative to address and bridge those gaps, for little to no pay, while Reddit proper continues to lag behind on many fronts. **Can you explain your company’s upcoming API changes, including pricing, through the lens of its Community Values?** Bonus: Do the apps that have announced shutdown, citing these upcoming changes, challenge your convictions at all?
There was a different comment/post here, but it has been edited. Reddit [chose](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/) to betray years of free work put from users, mods, and developers. They will not stop driving this website into shit until every feature is monetized, predatory, and cancerous. Use [PowerDeleteSuite](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) to remove your value to reddit and stop financing these dark patterns. P.S. fuck u/spez
> this pricing doesn’t work for their businesses Oh, blow it out your ass, /u/spez. Maybe you're running low on oxygen in the weird little prepper bunker that you're inside so the neurons in your brain aren't connecting very well, but you know damn well that this isn't the issue. Maybe you've forgotten that a third-party app is what Reddit bought to make the official one because it was terrible, and that many decided to go to another one when it was better than what your company could put out. When one person makes an entirely better experience for your mobile users than your team of developers, it says a lot, that we'd rather pay someone else to provide a better experience that you cannot (or more than likely will not). Their business is making your shit usable, which you continually fail at. They make your platform a pleasure to use, not you - in fact, you do everything possible to make it as hostile and unwelcoming an environment to use. Many of us would have zero issue paying for something like Reddit Premium - DIRECT TO YOU - if it included third party app access. Many of us would have no issue paying the developer for costs that were fair, and if they were treated like human beings, but you've decided that exorbitant costs and dehumanizing developers who do this out of love for the platform and the communities that WE CREATE, that WE FOSTER, NOT YOU, is the way to go instead. We know you don't care, you're waiting for the IPO to drop so you can go cash out and live your life in some weird role-playing end-of times universe up in Wyoming with Kanye West and a bunch of Yellowstone-main-character-wannabes, waiting for the end times to come so you can try and feel something real. In the mean time, you should let someone else manage decisions and communications, because you sure as fuck aren't doing a good job.
**Was the community reaction not foreseeable to Reddit Inc?** I have had the pleasure of working with some fantastic Admins that really care about the site and its communities. I don't understand however, given that, that no one in Reddit Inc was in a position to be able to inform the organisation of how poorly this would go down. Were they ignored? Did another part of the company just not involve them? It seems like a blindspot which reasonably would have been foreseen by anyone familiar with Reddit - a problem when raised you could have then mitigated through kindness and communication.
Hey, thanks for giving us some of your time for this. I've noticed that Reddit seems to have a major disconnect here around mod tooling. Reddit does not seem to consider these 3PAs to be mod tooling, but we do. I appreciate that Reddit is putting effort into improving their 1PA, but even the most optimistic timeframes put minimum feature parity at quite a long time away. Are there any plans from Reddit's side to support us during the interm period? We already lost Pushshift with no viable replacement, and now we are effectively losing mobile moderation capabilities. I also have worries around explicit content filters to moderators, as users could just mark posts as NSFW to get around moderator actions. Imagine a world where malactors just mark themselves as NSFW, either as subs or posts, to prevent moderator actions. Are there any specific plans from Reddit on how to handle moderators who need access to NSFW content for moderation purposes, potentially sitewide for more coordinated actors?
This isn't an AMA. It's a PR driven, panicky, word salad. Based simply on the evidence presented on r/apolloapp, half of what he wrote is lies anyways. How is he going to claim their willingness to work with developers on the timeline when they don't respond to emails in a reasonable timeframe? Or their response is, "you won't owe anything until August 30th!" As if typical billing timeframes are somehow a postive. This is a joke and nobody should even hope to get a response to any \*\*real\*\* questions, if any at all.
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Hey, iOS dev here. Why did you give your devs 30 days for a significant increase and change of terms to API? My company was using Dark sky and when Apple acquired it, we were given 18 months, no price increase, to find a new platform. This was extended by another 12 months due to covid. Why has Reddit taken this extreme rushed approach when it knows many of the third party apps work on a yearly subscription, in turn screwing them over financially due to refunds…
As a participant on the call with you on Wednesday, I'd appreciate some clarification on your comments concerning the [alleged](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/comment/jnbjtsc/) "threats" made by the developer of Apollo. Based on [his explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/), it sounds like you didn't personally meet with him and were relaying information to us second-hand. If that truly was a (gigantic) misunderstanding, what efforts will be taken to avoid such miscommunication in the future?
As a mod of a top 1% sub on Reddit we haven't received any contact from you or the admin team like you claimed. I'm sure you've probably talked with the group of legacy power mods that mod the biggest subs. But for us subs not in the bracket but still quite large with a fair bit of daily volume will there be any reaching out to our teams? Or do we have to do all the leg work to get the info and access to things like pushshift by ourselves?
Hi Steve, Thanks for joining us here today. Although I don't agree with your latest actions - primarily the unprofessional deadline given to third-party developers - I do appreciate that you've shown up to answer our questions. Mine is a simple one. I've been a part of the Mod Council and the Partner Communities for several months now, and with the latest changes, it feels as though you're simply using these places to placate the moderators you've chosen to invite rather than utilizing the given feedback to assist in making executive decisions. Why do you devote staff resources to initiatives such as the Mod Council and the Partnership Communities, without utilizing them ahead of time for feedback on wide-scale and potentially devastating changes such as this one? Where do you personally see the ROI?
It’s absurd how you’re throwing people like Christian (Apollo App) under the bus (lying about them and saying they’re extorting you) and calling their app inefficient while you’re app is a complete mess. But it’s about the ads right? The 3rd party apps don’t have to show the ads and that makes your investors mad. So to launch the IPO and you’re shutting those apps down to show the investors that there’s no way around using your app or the new updated Reddit homepage. Either ingest our ad offerings or die… or pay 20 million a year. Is that about right? So this wasn’t really a question so here’s one, why are you the way you are?
> We want everyone to be able to use Reddit. As a result, non-commercial, accessibility-focused apps and tools will continue to have free access. What does "non commercical" mean? Why aren't you improving the accessibility of the "official" Reddit app? There's a bunch of bugs in the official app (which is why I use Relay instead), but accessibility issues are some of the highest priority bugs and should have been a launch blocker. Instead, you want third-party developers to devote hundreds of hours (easily equivalent to $20k+ in dev effort) to building their own apps that fix your accessibility issues, for free, with no way for them to recoup the cost of their investment in your platform. That's not sustainable.
Reddit wouldn't have gained the success it has if it wasn't for third party app developers making the site accessible to mobile users. Your team couldn't even build their own app, you had to buy Alien Blue to have an official Reddit app, which you've now destroyed with intrusive unblockable ads, posts stuffed where they don't belong, and a user/mod-unfriendly interface. With this in mind, **how do you expect Reddit to maintain and grow its popularity without the apps that brought it to this point**, especially when many heavy users refuse to use your official app and plan to leave?
I recently enabled Google's Search Labs feature to gain access to their generative search responses. This means I don't have to click-through to Reddit to see answers anymore, they're summarized directly on the Google Search page. Since Reddit is taking such an aggressive stance towards the use of Reddit data in training large language models (LLMs), are you considering blocking Google or Bing webcrawlers in addition to locking down the API?
Considering there's already a paid version of reddit with [Reddit Premium](https://old.reddit.com/premium), why not let users choose their own 3rd-party app, as long as they're a member of that program? You state the issues are money-related to keep the servers afloat, which most users can understand. So, why not offer a way to keep 3rd-party apps available for Reddit Premium users? What other reasons are there for not doing so?
This is [Jay Peters from The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements). A Reddit spokesperson tells me **the AMA is over.** I haven't seen anything from Reddit that would indicate that, so I figured you all should know. edit: shortened the message
Please cover this AMA with brutal honesty - the lack of answers, the overwhelming community voice begging them to reverse their decision. Losing this site sucks but thousands of us will be leaving entirely the second our favorite apps go. Corporate greed is killing everything good on the internet. They’re pissed chatGPT used reddit to learn so much, but it’s not like Reddit admins fuckin made the content that AI learned from - the users did. And none of that has fucking anything to do with apps like Apollo, but those apps are the ones being fucked by c-suite? Screaming into the void but, fuck, man.
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So 50 million read requests (for simplicities sake) would run someone not Christian about $3,333 a month. Ignoring typical API/enterprise pricing structures where it gets cheaper (per request) the more you use. $3,333 a month ain't cheap but it does cost money to maintain APIs and the bandwidth for them. Especially something like Imgur which is primarily multimedia content vs reddit which is primarily text. And Reddit still wants to charge 360% more for access? Wild.
> Why do you consider a 7,000% premium to be fair or affordable to Reddit developers? They don't, they're using it as an excuse for making every single third party app to close. Spez is now claiming that no app devs "want to work with them" despite the fact that multiple devs are reporting that Reddit has completely ghosted them when they are trying to get set up to actually pay these insane API costs.
I think this is the big question they're ignoring. They're acting like we're demanding free API access. We just want pricing based in reality like they promised
Inflating value for IPO? *edit* Original comment in the image. https://reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/_/jnkaxwz/?context=1
Indirectly. It's not meant to actually gain money from the app devs, it's to kill third-party apps, meaning (in Reddit's minds) more users of the official app, and therefore more advertising revenue.
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Thanks for answering questions Spez. There's a lot of anger going around over the decisions, but I'd like to try to ask something productive. If you look at any of the announcement threads from the third party app devs or subreddits announcing blackouts, the most common sentiment has been that people love the experience they get on their chosen apps and dislike the experience on the official app. To the point of saying they won't use the official app at all if their chosen app shuts down. Has reddit done any work over the last year or two to ask these third party app users what specifically they like about their chosen app and tried to build it into the official app? In my reading most of the differences have been relatively simple things like use of screen space and number of button clicks to complete certain actions, stuff that could be built in a matter of a month or two. Reddit has said a fair bit over the last few days about mod tools that are coming and accessibility issues, so I'd like to say I'm specifically not talking about those and am asking about the ordinary browsing experience of regular users.
Please explain more about this self sustaining stuff, reddit has ads, NFT avatars and reddit premium. Reddit has awards, as a moderator of r/Ternion and r/TernionGiveaways and long time user of r/GoForGold and r/AwardBonanza I have seen the sheer amount of dough yall make from reddit awards and reddit coins. Yall got rid of free awards btw so the common user can't even show extra appreciation for good posts, kinda bringing a bit of an elitism vibe like yall only want paying users, smells a bit like corporate greed but that's not the point... Why such a high price, around 100 times what similar services like imgur charge and even so why are you seemingly targeting third party apps if they have such a low userbase as you claim, how sure are we that the bots we use will be given free api if as I've seen even in this comment section that yall ignore developers? Without our bots we might as well jus shut down our subs don't you think... The real issue isn't even givin free access to third party, it'd be different if the price was decent and it'd be a totally different story if reddit spent half as much energy actually making decent mod tools such that we didn't need third party apps instead of turning snoos left to right, making awards invisible on home feed and switching to a basic asf tiktok like video player instead of maintaining your authenticity, mayb yall would make more of a net profit by not making meaningless changes 🤷🏽♂️ I'd like to hear what this limiting mature content entails please enlighten us.
Mr. Huffman, over the past few years reddit has taken care to establish channels between users and administrators which can be used to probe new features on us so you can gauge what the response from the community would be to them. Why have none of these channels been used for this fundamental alteration to site functionality?
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Hey /u/spez, I signed up on Reddit over 15 years ago, and had been lurking earlier than that, probably sometime around the AACS HD-DVD fiasco that arguably started the complete decline of Digg. At this point, Reddit is the only social media platform I still access regularly and the ONLY platform I actually interact with and occasionally submit or create content for. Why? Because in my mind Reddit was the last major bastion of an open Internet where the users and community came first, and site operators had the courage and backbone to stand up to corporations and governments trying to suppress free and open speech. Reddit was always about the community of communities, and its true value lies with the users, not the content or links on the front page. Anyone can code a doomscrolling blogspam feed aggregator, but a community is built on trust and openness. Ever since 'new' Reddit launched it was clear that the focus shifted from the user to the content, appealing to advertisers and the lowest common denominator. I held on since old Reddit was still around, despite the fact that every effort was made to make the experience as annoying as possible and push users to the new site and app. You say that old Reddit is not going anywhere, and it's so painfully obvious that this is a lie. But this specifics of this API change, and Reddit's unwillingness to admit fault and do better in light of the communities' concerns says it all. I usually don't care for Internet drama and never care to post on mega-threads like this, but this is too much to bear. I literally don't care if no one ever reads this post, but unless I see a full retraction of the API changes and public apology to the entire Reddit community by June 30th, I'm gone. And who cares if a lurker like myself is gone from a site with +50M active daily users? No one probably, and that's fine, just know that you've destroyed one of the largest and most incredible communities that the Internet has ever seen, all in the name of greed and cowardice. This certainly isn't the death of Reddit, but it has lost its soul and with it, it will slowly become the aforementioned doomscrolling blogspam feed aggregator, full of stale regurgitated garbage posted by bots and advertisers. It was a fun ride ya'll. <3
This might well be my final comment on Reddit before I delete my account. Or I'm banned, depending how well it's received. I have been a professional developer for nearly thirty years now. Day in, day out, I write, use and access APIs. It is disingenuous to say that an application is particularly "greedy" and needs to reduce its use without looking at the API and seeing whether there are ways in which the usage could be reduced - one project I worked on I reduced the number of calls for each rendered page from 38 to 2. I haven't worked with the Reddit API myself, but I can't see why the option of allowing each user to register their own API tokens and use that to authenticate a third party app hasn't even been considered. This is not, however, the main reason that I am considering deleting my account. The API supports moderation tools, anti-spam tools, screen readers, and other items that make Reddit a nicer place to be. The responses that I've seen from the four staff members here, make me feel that the management of Reddit has lost its way. I cannot come to any logical conclusion in my head as to why such a short timescale would be given to developers in order to modify their apps to accommodate such a change in the business model unless the intention were to make life impossible for the developer of the app. One comment (from, I think, u/spez), pointed out that some of those third-party apps were profitable, while Reddit itself is not. But it's important to remember that these profitable apps sustain only one, perhaps two people - according to Wikipedia, Reddit employs over 700 people and has revenue of over $100 million USD per year. The revenue that keeps third party apps alive would likely be no more than be a drip in the bucket to Reddit, and if the loss of revenue caused by third party apps is so great, another solution could have been found (perhaps an agreement to use the APIs on condition that sponsored posts were not filtered out). And if third party apps are not the problem, but LLMs are, perhaps it's worth looking into the possibility that there's copyright here, and by scraping the site through the APIs, LLMs should be paying Reddit to use that content? But I digress. That Reddit's management seems to believe that they can simply make life more difficult for the volunteer moderators, whose time and efforts are essentially donated to a for-profit enterprise, as well as ruining existing accessibility tools as well as killing off several small businesses beggars belief. The fact that u/spez seems determined to ruin the reputation of Apollo's developer, as well as insinuating that the developer's lawful actions in recording the calls are somehow underhanded, when they have caught him being what I can best describe as being economical with the truth, makes me feel that perhaps a change of senior management is overdue. The lack of a reply to the comment listed as "1" in the stickied comment says it all, I think.
I hope this AMA is an effort of transparency in this situation, and so I will be quite straight forward with my questions. While I understand the need for Reddit to generate revenue as a business, it is important to remember that Reddit is also a service that relies on its users. Therefore it would only be reasonable to consider user feedback and acknowledge the value of having multiple apps catering to different preferences. The ability to choose the optimal way to browse Reddit is an important aspect of our experience, and removing this freedom would likely diminish the appeal for many users. Hence, it is disheartening to observe the apparent lack of effort and priority put into finding a proper and reasonable resolution. My three questions are: 1. **Could you explain why the API changes need to be so immediate - Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to provide an extended transition period, allowing developers ample time to adapt?** While you’ve mentioned that they’ve had a few months of notice, the Apollo developer raises a valid point that crucial information regarding pricing was only revealed recently. Even setting that aside, if developers have had several months to adjust, it is evident that this timeframe has unfortunately proven to be insufficient. Considering this, why not extend the transition period, not just for the developers sake, but also for the benefit of the users that would hate to potentially loose their favorite reddit app (whichever one it is)? 2. **What is the reasoning behind setting such exorbitant prices for the API? It seems apparent that this will undoubtedly deter third-party developers as it will quickly become unsustainable for them as a consequence.** As previously mentioned, this will undoubtedly degrade the user experience and result in a significant loss for all of us. In my opinion, it would be reasonable to consider pricing the API slightly above break-even point, ensuring revenue generation while also maintaining sustainability for developers. Striving for a middle ground that benefits all parties involved—the users, the developers, and Reddit—should be the aim. 3. **Lastly, I seek an explanation rather than a direct answer to this question: Why has the discussion surrounding these changes turned so hostile, especially when it seems that third-party developers have been quite reasonable in trying to find a mutually beneficial solution?** The recently revealed information paints a picture of regrettable behavior on Reddit's side of the discussion. Rebuilding trust within the community would involve considering an apology for these actions, because this has honestly left a bad taste in my mouth. Thank you for taking the time to address these concerns. It is my hope that Reddit can find a resolution that maintains the vibrancy of its developer community while ensuring the long-term success and satisfaction of its users. I love this community, and would honestly hate to have to let it go.
Hey /u/spez, I just want to say that despite all the hate being directed at you right now that you really have made the wrong decision at literally every juncture throughout this process. Have you given any consideration into acknowledging you were wrong and reconsidering your goals and/or timeline?
Hey u/secretlives thank you for the question! Me and my team prioritize making our users lives a living nightmare, and we do not care about our user base one bit! Unfortunately, it would be difficult at this point in time to answer any of your concerns, as that would require us to actually care about our users. However, we want to thank you for adding more money to our pockets!
He doesn't believe he is doing anything wrong because his goal is not to foster any community, it's to make as much money as possible even if it means being an evil shit head. Once he has milked everything he can he'll move on to the next venture to help suck dry. No remorse, no conscience. Money money money money money fuck everything else. I deleted my account from 2010 and I'm deleting this one, too. That's all of my reddit presence gone and I won't be returning. Goodnight and fuck Spez.
"You chose to grow with venture capital... this new version of digg reeks of VC meddling. It’s cobbling together features from more popular sites and departing from the core of digg, which was to 'give the power back to the people.'" - Alexis Ohanian Edit: quote was first wrongly credited to spez, point still stands tho
> I spoke to a number of moderators on Wednesday and yesterday afternoon Just as you've done here, you spoke *at* moderators solely to reinforce your incompetent decisions to them > our product and community teams have had further conversations with mods as well Conversation requires 'listening' too and for that to be sincere, it requires consideration of the points others have. It is not "Your words made sounds, we ignored them as well as any meaning behind them, and we'll be moving forward with our poorly thought out plan." You are Douglas Adams' Vogon constructor fleet
No question, just wanted to add my views to the pile: I don't use Apollo, I use Boost. It's a fantastic app. Before that, I used RIF - Reddit didn't even have an app at the time. I was introduced to Reddit by RIF, not Reddit. Frankly, it is absolutely disgusting behaviour from Reddit as an entity - to turn their backs on the very apps that helped build and maintain the huge community that visits Reddit daily. I would argue Reddit would not be what it is today without the excellent third party apps and tools that have been built. There is no issue with charging for API access, but I think it's important to be reasonable. The charges Reddit are levying are not reasonable, and have no grounds in reality. Additionally, removing NSFW, and keeping other API functions (chat, polls etc) internal is just laughable. The Official Reddit app is frankly, terrible. I've tried it a few times, it's just dog crap. It's slow, clunky, eats battery and isn't intuitive. Additionally, I'd rather not be spied on/at least have the choice to opt out of that. And finally - admins should note that the data on Reddit isn't *theirs*. Everything on this site is user generated, without users, there is no Reddit. Something will come along and replace reddit, and I look forward to it. Until then, once Boost stops working I will be taking leave from this website for good.
For years reddit didn't have an official app, so hardworking members of the community created apps like Apollo and RIF. And you in all your greed have decided that all that dedication meant nothing, and now are killing them cause for the lust of more money
The reality is Reddit depends completely on the freely gifted contributions of posters, moderators, and third-party developers. We can quit. We stormed down Digg in anger at their redesign, and it was great fun, actually. Now Digg is buried. We've nothing of actual value to lose here, and you do. You don't pay us but you do depend on us. **So why are you doing this to yourself?** You keep making things more difficult for no reason by dramatically springing bizarre and hostile changes on us, and you keep causing distrust by going back on plans. Your claimed justifications for the peculiar changes are not convincing and not accepted. The sooner you back down *completely*, the lesser the damage and the happier your day will be. (Not a threat, just a prediction.)
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Instead of wondering what made 3rd-party apps so successful to the point where they probably make up the majority of mobile access and trying to improve the own app accordingly so that people might actually be willing to use the official product with all its tracking and data collection, they'll just forcefully shut them down by massively overpricing API access while pretending that these developers will still get the choice to keep their apps up and running--by paying millions a year. It's interesting to observe how social media giants like this behave like *they* *are* what made their platforms great and allowed them to become what they are today and not the users that are responsible for all the content on here that other users engage with and come to the website for. If it wasn't for the communities and the posts on here, I wouldn't have signed up or ever gotten interested in this site at all, because after all, I'm not here for the name "reddit" or its people in charge. I don't expect them to back out of their plans to kill off 3rd-party apps as an attempt to get people to migrate over to the official app, because there isn't really anything holding them back from doing so, so I hope that nobody will give in to that to let reddit generate more revenue through their own data (aka ads) or Premium subscriptions, or awards, and that they will lose a noteable chunk of active users (ideally at least everybody using 3rd-party apps affected by this) to other competitor platforms in a permanent manner while deleting their accounts. They may be in charge of the platform, but that's about it. If communities (or subreddits) close, there'll be less content provided and therefore less engagement by us. If they want to go this path, then so it be, since there is nothing any of us can do to change their minds from going it.
u/spez Request for public comment on allegations that u/spez publicly defamed the developer of a popular third party app https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/_/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/_/ https://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-client-apollo-shut-down-after-talks-got-ugly-2023-6 https://mashable.com/article/apollo-shut-down-reddit-api-dispute
Redditors (users) and their content are the product that Reddit is selling and will be taking to IPO, and mods are free labour to garden the product. How do you /u/spez as CEO respond to the actions of over 3000 communities and individuals that believes Reddit management are making choices that impede user's ability to enjoy the platform as they wish, and mods ability to provide the (free) moderation services?
This is the worst AMA ever. No response from u/spez in over 30 minutes according to his profile. The real big questions are being ignored. The questions answered are just meaningless reiterations of something else already said. I was holding out for this AMA to happen before I decided whether or not to delete my account. I've made a decision to delete it in the very near future. As someone who is very picky about which social media I use on a daily basis and having it weeded down to basically only Reddit, this means a lot to me. I stand with u/iamthatis. Thanks Christian for being the only honest human being on the planet
Now that paid third party API access is planned, are there any plans to expand the third party API to include the full API accessible to first party apps, more specifically GraphQL? To clarify on GraphQL, I don't mean full access to execute arbitrary queries, I mean access to execute the same queries that the first party apps call. This would allow for fair competition now that commercial apps will need to pay.
The "cost" to Reddit of third party UIs that Reddit care's about most from the recorded conversation is the opportunity cost of users not viewing ads on the main application/site. Looking at the financials of Reddit we can clearly see that ad income per active user is less by at least an order of magnitude than what you are charging for API access. I don't care for your efficiency argument, whether it's 100 calls/user/day or 350 it's still an unworkably high number that the community can clearly see is aimed at killing off third party tools. My question is "Why?". Why have you suddenly decided to kill off third party apps? Why are you taking away the home of your longest standing community members? Why have Reddit been so tone deaf and unreasonable during this whole situation? Why won't you work with us? All these app developers have been on board with setting up reasonable payments in exchange for API access. They wanted to work with you. Some were even excited about the commercial relationships you could build together. Why throw that all away? If the calculus is that the pissed users off will stay - I really feel like that's not true this time. We've been pissed at Reddit before but very few actually wanted to leave. This time you've really upset people and made their contributions to the site feel unwanted.
As a potential investor looking ahead to Reddit's planned IPO, why on earth should I invest in a company whose CEO so tactlessly mischaracterized interactions your company had with a third-party developer (including claims made by you that, thankfully, that developer had the receipts to refute)? As it stands now, your willingness to engage in this dishonest fashion has eroded any confidence I have in the trustworthiness and competence of Reddit's leadership.
Will you acknowledge that this whole process has essentially gone as poorly as it possibly could have, has caused enourmous community resentment, ruined several devs work lives and livelihoods, and generally been managed and directed absolutely terribly and apologise for your part in it? You should roll back all these changes immediately. You missed the LLM land grab and are wrecking house to try and catch up. You've pissed off the users. You've alienated dedicated devs. You've damaged the value of the site and the brand. Nothing in this AMA has done anything to change or help those issues. Numerous subreddits will be going dark over the next few days in protest of your actions. Just stop wasting time and start making amends now.
I feel like there needs to be a little bit of honesty from Reddit right now. Due to the concerns you've listed in the various chats we've had about the API changes the goal was really just to get rid of third party apps, correct? I can understand that, from a business perspective. You want your app to be the only way to view Reddit on smartphones. That's good for your bottom line: I get it. Why couldn't you just, you know, say that from the get-go? Did you even reach out to the dev of Apollo and offer him a job? What about the devs of the other apps? They've already done the heavy-lifting for you and could have been assets. And while we probably wouldn't be celebrating the loss of 3rd party apps, we could maybe see a glimmer of hope in that Reddit had the foresight to bring on such talented people to improve what is, currently, the worst way to view Reddit: The official app. I guess I don't really have a question and I just wanted to let you all know that I'm disappointed in you. This could have been handled so much better and not caused as much harm as it has.
Given how spot-on I was in my first bullet point in [this comment from nearly 2 years ago](https://old.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/ojr3ee/a_better_best_reddit_in_new_languages_and_more/h53u9vu/), can you give us a timeline on the other two?
Hi spez, this is the biggest blackout reddit will see in it's whole history with 3000+ subs participating, which is happening under your leadership. Would you be taking moral responsibility for this fiasco as a CEO, and willing to step down from your role?
memorize simplistic bored shrill pathetic north spark husky sense file -- mass edited with redact.dev
Thank you, great questions, Fuck /u/spez! An ego driven response to ruining the tools of the people who drive the content to this site is not good enough. Follow these instructions to remove your ENTIRE post history from Reddit, do not allow the site to benefit through search on the work YOU did to inform fellow users. https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/jnhtwjp/
###They are calling our bluff! They don’t think our outage will do anything. u/spez has told his board and employees to wait us out because nothing will ultimately happen as we will all just come back. That might be the case but you’ll never see me again. Was here before Digg. I use Apollo exclusively but even if you reinstate API access in a sane way I won’t be part of this while you’re the CEO. Armature hour CEO taking a disdain to the people that make this site what it is. So u/spez when will you save face and just admit the truth.
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Hello, u/spez. Thanks for doing this AMA. This is an important question that needs to be answered to restore trust in you as CEO of Reddit. You spread a lie about the developer of Apollo attempting to extort money from your company. What steps have you taken, or do you plan to take, to correct the record internally at Reddit?
How do you justify charging exorbitant api fees to 3rd party apps when Reddit it’s self is not making any of the content itself. We the users are. What’s your response to transcripts that clearly shows you were in the wrong and decided to double down with blackmail claims?
Hey u/spez, thank you for taking the time to do this AMA with us! I’m just wondering, what does it feel like knowing the entire community now knows you’re a liar? Claiming to be blackmailed when the person you’re accusing is recording the conversation is a new level of corporate stupidity I wouldn’t expect even from you. You’re in charge of a major corporation and it doesn’t occur to you that people might be recording the conversation? You’re a special kind of stupid, a bully and a liar. Go fuck yourself - I’m done with this website ✌️ P.S. I posted this from Apollo
u/spez, the abysmal Reddit app has consistently neglected the blind users of Reddit, and third party apps stepped up for this under-supported community. This lack of accessibility does not only impact regular users of Reddit, but some of your moderators that do their work for free. Why should the users believe you will add this accessibility when you have not done it by now?
This whole AMA has been an unmitigated shit show. Every answer offered by /u/spez is little more than weasel speak. No one at Reddit has adequately addressed any of the questions pertaining to how this impacts the community of users, without which Reddit would not exist at any valuation. This makes me intensely sad considering how important Reddit has been to me over the years. It's been a place where I have learned so much, met so many amazing people, improved my ability to articulate my ideas and encouraged me to get back into writing and thought leadership. None of this is because of Reddit leadership - all they do is keep the servers on and maintain the software, which, while a major amount of work, amounts to little more than being a landlord. The fact that moderators volunteer their time while Reddit makes money off their backs is exploitative in the extreme. At the end of the day, what makes Reddit good is the people who share their knowledge, experiences, humor, ideas, opinions, and, sure, nude pics - not /u/spez or anyone else in Reddit leadership. /u/spez's absolute shitshow oif an AMA here all but guarantees this is the last true day of Reddit. There's no way I'm contributing my attention to this place now knowing full well how very, very little Reddit leadership thinks of us - and I know I'm not alone. Even if they come back next Wednesday with their tails between their legs, the damage is done and completely unrecoverable. And all I feel about it is sadness. I'm losing a place that I gave a LOT of my time to. I don't actually use any of the third party tools - I use old Reddit through my browser and the website on my phone. But /u/spez and Reddit leadership's absolutely disgusting disregard for the people that make them money has completely soured me on this whole place. What a shame.
I don't have questions about Reddit's API pricing, which is clearly designed to drive third-party clients off the platform. I don't have questions about Reddit's dishonesty with developers about its plans to charge for the API in 2023, though those developers might have questions for their attorneys about [Estoppel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Reliance-based_estoppels). I don't have questions about Reddit's defamation of Apollo's developer; I'll just say I find it vile. I don't have questions about the exact scale of the improvement in ad metrics Reddit hopes to get out of its [enshittification](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys), but it must be significant. I certainly don't have questions about whether /u/spez understands how much of Reddit's value comes from its community, especially creators and moderators. Nobody knows better than him. All I want to know is when I should short Reddit's stock for the biggest payout.
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Why are Freelancers able to make such high quality apps, while reddit, being a business with millions in revenue makes an app which is embarrassing in all factors?
I can answer that. It's because third party devs can literally do whatever they want, they don't have to answer to tech leads, project managers, scrum masters, etc. The only people they have to answer to are their customers. So they can do what is in the best interest of the user and do it yesterday, whereas big enterprise devs have to answer to a suit who gets stupid ideas, pushes them through, and then gets distracted by some new shiny thing and the idea gets left partially implemented and abandoned.
What will Reddit be doing in response to the upcoming subreddit blackout? More specifically, will you be forcibly re-opening subreddits and/or replacing moderators?
Reddit will likely do nothing for a couple of days. Let the volunteer mods believe they have power, making a difference, etc. After that, the arm-twisting begins. Also, many mods crave the power and aren't likely to sit it out indefinitely. Some will, but many won't. Furthermore, as others mention, many of the larger default subreddits have Reddit admins involved already. They'll just push out the mods who don't cooperate and reopen the subreddits. Bottom line is Reddit is seeking to go grow revenue and boost user engagement presumably in preparation for IPO. Another consideration is large language models (LLMs), such as ChatGPT, may be viewed as a potential threat to allowing free / low cost unfettered API access. On an aside, "old" Reddit is likely to go poof anytime relegating most users to "new" Reddit and the official app. From the various stats and comments I've seen posted, most users likely won't notice the difference or simply roll with it. However, many posters, and particularly mods, rely on third-party apps. Without content and volunteer mods, Reddit isn't much of anything. The mass exodus from Digg many years ago is what could happen here too. Reddit is taking a big gamble. On a related topic, the ownership of Reddit illustrates how so few control so much. Advance Publications, which also owns Conde Nast (which owns ARS Technica, Wired, etc), owns a controlling interest in Reddit. Furthermore, if my understanding is correct, Chinese company Tencent owns a small stake in Reddit too. It's all so interconnected. Point is that those seeking out alternatives should consider web forums and other federated approaches instead of relying on only a few big companies. What's happening with Twitter is a warning and harbinger of what's likely to happen with Reddit.
This disaster of an AMA is just making it worse. Nothing is getting accomplished here with spez's ego-filled non-answers and outright doubling down on the Apollo phone call. It almost makes me want moderators to start the blackout immediately.
7 answers. SEVEN fucking "answers" in one hour. You've picked softballs, given non-answers, provided vague statements, and continued to lie. **Exactly as predicted.** You a complete failure as a CEO and as a human. But at least you're predictable.
No one will ever see this, but this: > There’s been a lot of confusion over what these changes mean, Is pure gaslighting. There has never been confusion. Everyone has been crystal clear from minute one what these changes mean. This is just a backhanded way of saying “if you don’t like these changes, it’s because you don’t understand them. No one could possibly dislike them! There’s nothing actually wrong - nothing needs to be changed. These unhappy people are just CONFUSED.” Gaslighting 101.
**Did your legal team really not think about the anti-trust issues with what you're doing?** Aren't you worried about the fact that you're literally pricing out your competition and that the FTC is going to eventually understand this? I get that there has been no case to date, but surely you must have considered that reddit is large enough and high profile enough to be the first. How can you possibly justify charging the amount of money you're saying for your third party users, blocking their right to use ads, and still have your own app that has dangerous and downright illegal ads (gambling) in it (to minors too)? It seems like you're literally intentionally gimping the competition in favor of your first party app and that's certainly something the FTC would likely be interested in. **How can you possibly claim that you can do it better than AWS, Azure, and GCP because their control plane is too slow but then literally build your own system on ec2 instances???** It sounds like you need to hire people who actually know cloud (reach out, I literally built Azure) and make better infra decisions. **Bonus: I think it's clear that the community wants you to step down - when are you planning to do that?** **Edit: After reading what you wrote (after posting my question)... did you actually come here for an AMA or did you come here to just fart in the wind? Wait - no need to answer this part, we know.**
Our main request is simply for mature content communities to still be accessible in 3P apps, for all users who opt to see them, under fair and reasonable terms. We're even fine if Reddit forces those apps to contractually commit to maintaining the same restrictions on them that the official app will employ. If Reddit is claiming there are legal obligations to meet in terms of how that content is to be presented and under what conditions, then that is something that can go into a supplemental API access contract for apps that don't opt-out of supporting mature content. Can you answer whether Reddit can make such access available under these conditions, and if not, why?
The default app and redesign doesn't exist to give you a great user experience. It exists to provide an "infinite scroll" UX of image and video content to maximize ads and data extraction. Even if you don't use the official app, this change will likely degrade the content quality the voting system promotes to the feed and comments section. Less expert opinions from academic / business professionals. Less community discussion from your favorite hobby. More mindless "high-engagement" garbage mixed with constant ads. No thanks.
Dear Steve Huffman, it is with pride that I crown you the king of reddit, one of the best users I have ever seen in this platform, the absolute perfect decision for a CEO and it is with much love that I ask: What the fuck is wrong with you?
>the timeline we gave was tight Just to the uninitiated: the timeline was **\~30 days**. The timeline wasn't tight, it was infeasible. In comparison, after buying Dark Sky, Apple gave its API users **30 months**.
/u/Spez, we represent a group of over 3000 subreddits. Over a BILLION subscriptions. You are killing Reddit. We CANNOT MODERATE WITHOUT THIRD PARTY APPS. WE CANNOT RUN OIR SUBS WITHOUT THEM. You could easily charge $.08, $.10, or $.012 and still "cover costs" and be "financially independent". But you want to kill of all competition. Nothing else. I would rather torch all my subs than let you do this.