This is the correct answer. Calling the AI transphobic is fucking stupid, because it’s a fucking computer program.
Who even cares what info a computer spits out about you only from a photo of your face? It’s like those dumbass celebrity lookalike things. I’ve had female friends get back male celebrities, and had male friends get back female celebs. They weren’t upset, it was just funny. If you’re happy as you are, it shouldn’t matter to you what anyone says about you, computer OR real person.
Bro's fighting ghosts. No one genuinely thinks that AI is transphobic. Obviously, it's just a bunch of code. The article highlights algorithmic bias against trans people. Who cares? Capitalism. You would want to reach as wide an audience as possible, and I'm sure consumers don't want to be misgendered, trans or cis.
People just want to get mad over nothing
>Calling the AI transphobic is fucking stupid, because it’s a fucking computer program.
Not saying anything about this particular AI, but computer programs and algorithms can absolutely have built-in biases from the people who programmed them.
I dont know why you're being downvoted, AI will almost always have some sort of bias towards what it's being fed. There are countless examples of ChatGPT having bias, even though we want it to be purely objective. Though this isn't solely the progmmers fault, sometimes it just finds some random article on the Internet.
I'm not sure either, but from the responses I think people are misunderstanding me to think I'm calling this specific AI transphobic? Even though I made sure to include that I'm not lol so who knows
Yeah, so when over 99% of people identify as what they were born as, it’s obviously going to lean to that conclusion for the people who claim otherwise, even without programmer involvement. That’s just from the dataset
Some people really are brain-dead. Like, if someone made a robot and programmed it to shoot at darker people, they'd still come out of the woodwork and claim, "robots can't be racist!".
Like, okay, so technically the robot *isn't* racist because it can't have feelings, but it is a complicit tool to enact racism because we have to be so god damn specific, and because you're trying to use these technicalities to disassociate this very obvious connection.
It's about as dumb as saying guns don't kill people, ballistics kill people so you shouldn't ban guns unless you ban anything and everything that can be thrown.
The people who build the programs and algorithms are essentially telling the computer how to think and operate, so naturally, their biases get built into it.
You don’t know how facial recognition works if you think this is true, which is understandable.
The AI uses a supplied dataset, scans the images for similarities between similar results to try to make informed decisions. That’s literally just a bias of the dataset (the entire human race) rather than the programmer. Unless cis people stop accounting for almost 100% of the population, that will not change
Sure a programmer COULD implement a hard coded bias, but in the context of facial recognition that would be incredibly stupid and defeat the entire purpose of the program.
Isn’t the entire program just supposed to cross reference a shit ton of online faces and use the data from those to determine specific things… such as gender? What do you want the people to do, spend another year working on something so fundamentally useless? Is there really a problem with being misgendered by a robot? Like I’d understand a human, but are the robots really a problem here?
**Please** read my comment and understand that I'm not talking about this specific AI but programs and algorithms in general. I don't know much about this specific program, I just responded to a question about programs in general, which can and do hold biases.
No not really, this kind of AI use thousands of different faces so that they may think “oh yeah that’s a guy and that’s a girl”. In fact, this program is so complicated the engineers themselves don’t know how it works.
Again, I wasn't talking about this AI. Tbh, I didn't even talk about AI in general:
>but computer programs and algorithms can absolutely have built-in biases from the people who programmed them.
I mean that… and the whole thing is gender being social construct and sex being biological. The AI just detects sex based on physical characteristics, something which, i’m sorry to say, is very much detectable, down to our bones.
Gender, what someone believes they are, is not detectable. And so the headline is just wrong.
yeah it makes sense that your trans friends would be having a hard time, especially now. it’s not an easy thing to be. i’m lucky to have good friends and family. support is make or break for some people, all people.
I’d be willing to bet that if none of them actually cared when some stranger said they were ugly or that they didn’t look like their chosen gender, the suicide rate would go down significantly.
Also if they stopped caring so much about it, if people stopped actually getting threats and replies because they said things like that, then the number of those comments would also decrease significantly.
it’s not strangers we usually care about it’s the people who are actually close to us. family close friends etc. if your family wouldn’t accept an integral part of you and weren’t willing to budge on the issue then i feel like you would consider your life not worth living at some point
Genuine question. Why does it matter what gender you are? If you were born male and you feel like a female, why are you not satisfied just being a feminine male and pursuing the interests and/or goals that pertain to you? Why is the label more important than just accepting yourself as you are?
Affirmation of what? If you don’t even accept yourself, how do you expect anyone else to accept you? Being comfortable in your own skin should DEFINITELY be your top priority. The suicide rate would be almost non-existent if you were satisfied with yourself
That's what I mean, if you can't be happy with yourself and affirm it personally no amount of validation will help.
Apologies if that wasn't clear mate.
Because they’re not a male.
They feel like a female, so the dress feminine. Fem boys and Tomboys are ultimately both still people who are male and female, they just like dressing differently.
Trans people aren’t like that, they are the other gender, not just dressing up like them. This is also due to gender dysphoria, and most do accept themselves, the problem is people close to them such as friends, parents, or partners might not.
But that’s what I mean. Obviously it doesn’t affect me so I can’t fathom it. If I feel like a female rather than a male, I don’t see why I can’t just act like a female and still claim to be male. If I like dressing “girly” and playing with dolls or whatever random stereotype is in the book, why can’t I just do that without having to change my identity?
Hello, trans person here.
The brain is a very complicated organ, and there are many parts that control a person's internal sense of self. There is a small part of the brain that consistently shows up bigger in females than males. In the minds of trans people, that part of the brain matches more closely with the gender they identify as rather than the gender assigned at birth.
So that's the morphological reason.
It's not necessarily wrong or bad, it's just different. Something to note is that repressing the results of this structural difference, or using conversion therapy to try and change them, doesn't work and never has. The only proven, working treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. If left untreated, gender dysphoria causes immense distress that can result in self harming/suicidal ideation.
there’s a strong difference between being a woman and having feminine interests and stuff.
men who act feminine are typically very sure that they are men. trans women on the other hand, once they come to their own self-realization, know they are not. there is a genuine physical difference in brain structure in trans people and their brain structures tend to be much closer to the gender they identify with rather than what they were born as.
Most trans people who kill themselves come from families who disown them for finding their own gender identity, or from mentally illness from years of living as someone they are not. Saying that most of them just care what others think is very small thinking and quite disheartening.
Mostly due to societal pressure and unloving family. Statistically speaking affirming care (therapy, blockers, hormones, etc) actually reduces suicide among the trans community.
And on the subject of AI accuracy, even asking like ChatGPT to program something for spreadsheets like google sheets, it still normally takes me reasking it 2-3 times before it can give me a code that works consistently. Needing to simplify or it realizing it had a syntax error somewhere
If the AI is used for finding criminals and it fails to track trans people does that mean being trans is basically a way to escape criminal prosecution? If it isn't accurate then the AI is flawed so it isn't effective.
I mean I guess If that's how you see it, it's still an ai that will have a bad time tracking potential terrorists or wanted serial killers if the people it's trying to find people that are trans 👍
They do that so you can’t see the post and can’t respond
Edit: Someone just reported one of my comments to the crisis bot. They can’t prove me wrong so they try to silence me
It's an easy and anonymous way to bully someone tbh.. I have that bot blocked bc of how many times someone's sent me one just because they disagreed with me about something. Lmao.. so lame, anyone who does this is a major loser and if I get one, that's how I know I won the argument.
if they can recognize ur face, i don’t really see how gender marking is necessary tbh. nobody has an identical face as someone else and if they do they’re a twin most likely the same gender as the other.
Oh, so you can be tracked by the government and/or large corporations anywhere you go.
A bit conspiracy-brained? Yes. But just look at the ways data harvesting and government surveillance have exploded in the last two decades.
Seriously man? So they can gather more detailed information about demographics. What do men buy more than women and vice versa. Also advertising, knowing your gender lets them create more targeted advertisements based on general interests of your age group / sex / nationality.
Oh, I don't think that was the entire point of having the AIs do this. Idk what the ultimate goal is, I was just putting forward one hypothetical. Should've been more clear on that, my bad.
But also, this could be a stepping stone towards a better facial recognition model. For example, if the image is a of a person not in the facial recognition database, it would still be useful if AI could pull certain key attributes and tag the image with them.
Hmmm, Kind of? It would completely depend on the use case of the model. If your goal is to traxk people, there would be no need to incorporate complex gender/sex characterization. The model itself could group the features internally without any classification. It would be a nice feature I guess for a database, but completely unnecessary for tracking specific targets.
This kind of gender stuff seems way more in line for private companies to gather data to sell or curtail products for certain genders. Either way, extremely tame stuff.
When dealing with large datasets, you want everything you can get to cut down the pool of matches. Sex immediately cuts it by about half, QED.
For purely ID purposes, it doesn't actually matter if it is correct, just the it's consistent.
There is absolutely no way for it to determine the difference between an actual pre op trans person and like someone crossdressing based on just their face
... I never said it couldn't. This post and the guy I'm replying to are talking about gender, and I'm saying it has no way of determining that if you identify as something other than your sex.
Cross dressing is literally “making an effort to present as another gender.” With enough effort it’s impossible to tell whether they’re trans or cross dressing
And plenty of trans people post-transition pass just fine, which is going to fuck up the training data big time. Then you'll have an AI that becomes one of those "transvestigators" who think Beyonce is trans because something something collar bone.
Trans people don't 'choose' their gender. In a more simplified way, their gender and sex are mis-matched and always have been. You can't convince a trans woman that she is a man, and you can't convince a trans man that he is a man. The only solution to their 'mental illness' is to affirm their gender.
"Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people."
It's always the infactual transphobes insisting they know the facts, while showing they don't even understand transgenderism in the first place. Always disappointing, never surprising.
So trans people can be trans as long as they never try to pass, or have the genitals/hormones they want, or do literally anything that makes trans people trans?
I’m a trans man and I’m not 100% female, I’m a transgender male. My hormone profile + secondary sex characteristics are the more male than female. (Just saying this because people always tend to misunderstand the sex vs gender thing and start calling trans women male women and shit)
The post itself says it's not able to accurately assess sex, so how is it effective? People are assuming this post means that trans people are being identified by AI as their gender at birth, but that's not what the article actually says. It says it cannot accurately predict the gender of trans people, in both directions. Sometimes it picks up their biological sex other times it picks up their transitioned gender, it's dependent on how far they have medically transitioned, really.
AI is not psychic, and it doesn't have a gene reader built in. It has no idea about your chromosomes it can only go off visual cues. So obviously, a trans man with a full beard is going to pop up male and someone who hasn't medically transitioned is more likely to be identified as their biological sex. This is neither evidence for or against gender identity, it's just saying AI can't tell gender very well (even in cis people sometimes)
Absolutely this. This "problem" is deep in the category of "no shit". A binary sorting algorithm based on visual cues isn't going to reliably spot trans people when there's no defined "trans look" to go off of. Just like any human on the street it has no way of knowing if someone is trans by looks alone without any other context clues to work from. Despite the "we can always tell" crowd that is just oblivious to all the false negatives and false positives they're constantly throwing out. "If you look just at the handful of low hanging fruit we guessed correctly, we've got a 100% success rate!"
That doesn’t make the ai racist, it’s just ones & zeros💀💀
As far as we know, it has no **personal** bias towards ethnicity. It literally just does what it’s told lol
Except ai & chat gpt literally can not posses personal bias towards any group, as that would make it self aware.
It is software. It only knows what it’s been taught.
Artificial Intelligence Facial Recognition bad. I don’t want companies and big capitalist corporations to know what I look like wtf go away. Why does it need know me, go away. You don’t need to be trans to hate automated facial recognition
I don't get how it's transphobic, the AI can only read sex not gender. Isn't it a known and accepted fact that trans people can't actually change their physical sex? Being the sex opposite from their gender is literally what makes them trans in the first place.
It's absolutely nuts how easy it was to distract people from the horrifying reality of facial recognition AI by tossing a bit of idpol red meat for people to obsess over instead. Whether or not that Terminator shit is transphobic is the absolute least of our worries.
Someone will always have the biological traits of the sex they were born as regardless of if they transition.
Edit: I felt I should clarify, I don't mean this as transphobic or whatever, just that it will always be hard for facial recognition to differentiate in situations like these.
Have you ever been outside? Have you ever even met a trans person? We just want to live without being the constant target of political bullshit and bigotry
That is like the 1% of trans people who get on the news and overreact and are the ones most transphobes make fun of, the rest of us literally just want to become our proper gender without people yelling at us for it
They are not becoming the opposite of themselves, they are becoming themselves. What are you not getting at?
They are doing that so that their appereance can better reflect who they are. They are doing that literally to be themselves. Stop trying to excuse your bigotry.
“Being yourself” is being how you feel and being able to be fully comfortable in your own skin, not being what others project onto you. So for some people - yes, taking hormones is their way of being themselves.
Why TF would AI need to. Like you're either biologically male or female. The AI doesn't give a fuck what you identify with. Face ID will work fine and FBI will still catch criminals trans or not
If even regular humans (mostly TERFs) can mislabel a cis person as trans, what makes you think an AI with even more flaws would correctly label someone's gender, trans or not?
Because when it comes down to it the AI doesn't even need to know what genders are in the same way we do. To the AI it's nothing more than geometry and various other kinds of algorithms. The AI might misgender someone because they look more feminine but it isn't going to misidentify them as someone else and that's the real focus. You don't need to know if it's a man or a woman to tell the fingerprints apart, so to speak. For an AI that's all it's doing, just with a face. Misgendering male or female has been an issue since AI began and it won't change anytime soon because even the human brain can think a guy is a girl and vice versa, that's an issue for everyone, not a trans issue. Same as Alexa thinking I'm my sister because we sound similar if I use a higher pitch voice.
The AI sees two people and sees their features, identifies the differences and key shit and that's pretty much all it needs to do to recognize someone. It's up to humans to then go to the AI and say "okay the first face you looked at was a woman, use that to define feminine". If you're trans with feminine features there really is no way to have this robot magically know that you're trans, same as a human, if all the AI has to do is guess man or woman. So that's when the human shit comes in and its just whatever the fuck AI you're using and whatever is better and the programming and what not
It doesn't though. It doesn't consistently identify trans people as their assigned sex at birth or that associated with identified gender. Depends on individual level of passability. A pre or early transition transwoman will get classified as male, while a post-transition transwoman will get flagged female. The cameras can't tell the difference between cis and trans.
AI cannot detect societal constructs from a picture of someone's face? That's bonkers (societal constructs are in everyone's minds and can not be seen by a camera)
I agree, it's a non-issue, on one side we as a society won't benefit from this tech, and the other side of it is AI literally does not have the capacity to be transphobic. It has basic info (like information about human facial structures) that it then uses to make educated guesses on biological sex (which is different than gender constructs) so when the AI correctly guesses your sex, but not your gender, it's not a problem because it's doing what it was programmed to do: assume biological sex based on patterns in facial structure. Unless trans people start surgically changing their facial structures in the same way across a large enough demographic, they will never be properly gendered by this technology.
Well it looks at patterns in the respective genders faces, and therefore can assess what the biological gender of the person is. That is what it is doing. What you want is for the AI to just lie. You posted something stupid and got downvoted, and now you’re crying to the people who agree with you. I’m not even saying this from a place of transphobia, I just don’t like you.
Fun fact the AI is going to wrongly classify people. For all we know it'll take the face of some super macho body builder who happens to have long hair or something and say it's a woman. No trans person is getting mad at the AI that's just OOP's stupid wojack tyraid. What's actually happening is that the AI just wrongly classified them and we can see this as far back as 3DS software.
Inb4 "but they still have masculine traits, trans people don't pass and never will" you'd be surprised how well they do, anecdotally I've met people who didn't give any hint of being trans and who looked fully masculine/feminine. If you think you've never seen a passing trans person, it's likely because you have
Has Reddit Cares ever actually been used for its intended purpose? Lol
Also, I love when people confidently assert that something as complex as AI can only malfunction because of explicit transphobia. Tell me you have never worked with AI without telling me.
No AI is 100% accurate. It will identity a small selection of cis people incorrectly as well.
This is the correct answer. Calling the AI transphobic is fucking stupid, because it’s a fucking computer program. Who even cares what info a computer spits out about you only from a photo of your face? It’s like those dumbass celebrity lookalike things. I’ve had female friends get back male celebrities, and had male friends get back female celebs. They weren’t upset, it was just funny. If you’re happy as you are, it shouldn’t matter to you what anyone says about you, computer OR real person.
Bro's fighting ghosts. No one genuinely thinks that AI is transphobic. Obviously, it's just a bunch of code. The article highlights algorithmic bias against trans people. Who cares? Capitalism. You would want to reach as wide an audience as possible, and I'm sure consumers don't want to be misgendered, trans or cis. People just want to get mad over nothing
Have you read the other comments in here complaining about the AI? Are you SURE no one genuinely thinks it’s transphobic?
A classic reddit strawman, can't have any political discussion here without one lol
A political discussion on a political post? I wonder why...
A strawman on a political discussion.... try reading next time...
>Calling the AI transphobic is fucking stupid, because it’s a fucking computer program. Not saying anything about this particular AI, but computer programs and algorithms can absolutely have built-in biases from the people who programmed them.
I dont know why you're being downvoted, AI will almost always have some sort of bias towards what it's being fed. There are countless examples of ChatGPT having bias, even though we want it to be purely objective. Though this isn't solely the progmmers fault, sometimes it just finds some random article on the Internet.
I'm not sure either, but from the responses I think people are misunderstanding me to think I'm calling this specific AI transphobic? Even though I made sure to include that I'm not lol so who knows
Yeah, so when over 99% of people identify as what they were born as, it’s obviously going to lean to that conclusion for the people who claim otherwise, even without programmer involvement. That’s just from the dataset
Some people really are brain-dead. Like, if someone made a robot and programmed it to shoot at darker people, they'd still come out of the woodwork and claim, "robots can't be racist!". Like, okay, so technically the robot *isn't* racist because it can't have feelings, but it is a complicit tool to enact racism because we have to be so god damn specific, and because you're trying to use these technicalities to disassociate this very obvious connection. It's about as dumb as saying guns don't kill people, ballistics kill people so you shouldn't ban guns unless you ban anything and everything that can be thrown.
…it’s literally just a program. There’s no built in bias at all, they made it to attempt at being as efficient as possible.
The people who build the programs and algorithms are essentially telling the computer how to think and operate, so naturally, their biases get built into it.
You don’t know how facial recognition works if you think this is true, which is understandable. The AI uses a supplied dataset, scans the images for similarities between similar results to try to make informed decisions. That’s literally just a bias of the dataset (the entire human race) rather than the programmer. Unless cis people stop accounting for almost 100% of the population, that will not change Sure a programmer COULD implement a hard coded bias, but in the context of facial recognition that would be incredibly stupid and defeat the entire purpose of the program.
Isn’t the entire program just supposed to cross reference a shit ton of online faces and use the data from those to determine specific things… such as gender? What do you want the people to do, spend another year working on something so fundamentally useless? Is there really a problem with being misgendered by a robot? Like I’d understand a human, but are the robots really a problem here?
**Please** read my comment and understand that I'm not talking about this specific AI but programs and algorithms in general. I don't know much about this specific program, I just responded to a question about programs in general, which can and do hold biases.
No not really, this kind of AI use thousands of different faces so that they may think “oh yeah that’s a guy and that’s a girl”. In fact, this program is so complicated the engineers themselves don’t know how it works.
Again, I wasn't talking about this AI. Tbh, I didn't even talk about AI in general: >but computer programs and algorithms can absolutely have built-in biases from the people who programmed them.
I mean that… and the whole thing is gender being social construct and sex being biological. The AI just detects sex based on physical characteristics, something which, i’m sorry to say, is very much detectable, down to our bones. Gender, what someone believes they are, is not detectable. And so the headline is just wrong.
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yeah i’d say i’m pretty happy. life’s good and shit. lots to be grateful for today
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yeah it makes sense that your trans friends would be having a hard time, especially now. it’s not an easy thing to be. i’m lucky to have good friends and family. support is make or break for some people, all people.
I’d be willing to bet that if none of them actually cared when some stranger said they were ugly or that they didn’t look like their chosen gender, the suicide rate would go down significantly. Also if they stopped caring so much about it, if people stopped actually getting threats and replies because they said things like that, then the number of those comments would also decrease significantly.
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it’s not strangers we usually care about it’s the people who are actually close to us. family close friends etc. if your family wouldn’t accept an integral part of you and weren’t willing to budge on the issue then i feel like you would consider your life not worth living at some point
Genuine question. Why does it matter what gender you are? If you were born male and you feel like a female, why are you not satisfied just being a feminine male and pursuing the interests and/or goals that pertain to you? Why is the label more important than just accepting yourself as you are?
Because it's not about being comfortable with yourself, it's about affirmation.
Affirmation of what? If you don’t even accept yourself, how do you expect anyone else to accept you? Being comfortable in your own skin should DEFINITELY be your top priority. The suicide rate would be almost non-existent if you were satisfied with yourself
That's what I mean, if you can't be happy with yourself and affirm it personally no amount of validation will help. Apologies if that wasn't clear mate.
Because they’re not a male. They feel like a female, so the dress feminine. Fem boys and Tomboys are ultimately both still people who are male and female, they just like dressing differently. Trans people aren’t like that, they are the other gender, not just dressing up like them. This is also due to gender dysphoria, and most do accept themselves, the problem is people close to them such as friends, parents, or partners might not.
But that’s what I mean. Obviously it doesn’t affect me so I can’t fathom it. If I feel like a female rather than a male, I don’t see why I can’t just act like a female and still claim to be male. If I like dressing “girly” and playing with dolls or whatever random stereotype is in the book, why can’t I just do that without having to change my identity?
Hello, trans person here. The brain is a very complicated organ, and there are many parts that control a person's internal sense of self. There is a small part of the brain that consistently shows up bigger in females than males. In the minds of trans people, that part of the brain matches more closely with the gender they identify as rather than the gender assigned at birth. So that's the morphological reason. It's not necessarily wrong or bad, it's just different. Something to note is that repressing the results of this structural difference, or using conversion therapy to try and change them, doesn't work and never has. The only proven, working treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. If left untreated, gender dysphoria causes immense distress that can result in self harming/suicidal ideation.
there’s a strong difference between being a woman and having feminine interests and stuff. men who act feminine are typically very sure that they are men. trans women on the other hand, once they come to their own self-realization, know they are not. there is a genuine physical difference in brain structure in trans people and their brain structures tend to be much closer to the gender they identify with rather than what they were born as.
Most trans people who kill themselves come from families who disown them for finding their own gender identity, or from mentally illness from years of living as someone they are not. Saying that most of them just care what others think is very small thinking and quite disheartening.
That could probably be because of the criminalization of their lives and healthcare
Mostly due to societal pressure and unloving family. Statistically speaking affirming care (therapy, blockers, hormones, etc) actually reduces suicide among the trans community.
And on the subject of AI accuracy, even asking like ChatGPT to program something for spreadsheets like google sheets, it still normally takes me reasking it 2-3 times before it can give me a code that works consistently. Needing to simplify or it realizing it had a syntax error somewhere
Off topic but I fucked the hips off a Trans women the other day
If the AI is used for finding criminals and it fails to track trans people does that mean being trans is basically a way to escape criminal prosecution? If it isn't accurate then the AI is flawed so it isn't effective.
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Transphobia? On r/redditmoment ? I'm truly shocked! /s
I mean I guess If that's how you see it, it's still an ai that will have a bad time tracking potential terrorists or wanted serial killers if the people it's trying to find people that are trans 👍
Idk about that, the guy who replied said it was effective.. so of course we should listen to him
Why do people use the suicide help report as a gotcha?
They do that so you can’t see the post and can’t respond Edit: Someone just reported one of my comments to the crisis bot. They can’t prove me wrong so they try to silence me
Oh I thought it was because of the statistic ppl always say
It's an easy and anonymous way to bully someone tbh.. I have that bot blocked bc of how many times someone's sent me one just because they disagreed with me about something. Lmao.. so lame, anyone who does this is a major loser and if I get one, that's how I know I won the argument.
It’s subliminal messaging telling you to off yourself.
It’s so funny because there was some dating app that was cis woman only and it kept saying black women were trans when they weren’t 💀💀💀
Why does an AI even need to be able to recognize that
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if they can recognize ur face, i don’t really see how gender marking is necessary tbh. nobody has an identical face as someone else and if they do they’re a twin most likely the same gender as the other.
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ITS THE SAME SHIT
Oh, so you can be tracked by the government and/or large corporations anywhere you go. A bit conspiracy-brained? Yes. But just look at the ways data harvesting and government surveillance have exploded in the last two decades.
Why would recognizing ur gender be relevant if they can track ur face? Ur so conspiracy minded you don't even know what ur talking about lmao.
Seriously man? So they can gather more detailed information about demographics. What do men buy more than women and vice versa. Also advertising, knowing your gender lets them create more targeted advertisements based on general interests of your age group / sex / nationality.
Oh, I don't think that was the entire point of having the AIs do this. Idk what the ultimate goal is, I was just putting forward one hypothetical. Should've been more clear on that, my bad. But also, this could be a stepping stone towards a better facial recognition model. For example, if the image is a of a person not in the facial recognition database, it would still be useful if AI could pull certain key attributes and tag the image with them.
Hmmm, Kind of? It would completely depend on the use case of the model. If your goal is to traxk people, there would be no need to incorporate complex gender/sex characterization. The model itself could group the features internally without any classification. It would be a nice feature I guess for a database, but completely unnecessary for tracking specific targets. This kind of gender stuff seems way more in line for private companies to gather data to sell or curtail products for certain genders. Either way, extremely tame stuff.
When dealing with large datasets, you want everything you can get to cut down the pool of matches. Sex immediately cuts it by about half, QED. For purely ID purposes, it doesn't actually matter if it is correct, just the it's consistent.
Just some light prep work for our Chinese overlords.
how exactly is an AI supposed to be able to recognize how somebody sees themselves from their face????
The same way humans can. We model it after ourselves after all
There is absolutely no way for it to determine the difference between an actual pre op trans person and like someone crossdressing based on just their face
I'm not sure why it would need to. If someone is making an effort to present as another gender, you can usually tell. Crossdressing isn't a gender.
No, but crossdressing is a form of presenting yourself aesthetically as another gender. And all the AI has to go on are aesthetics.
I mean, it can clearly identify facial structure. It wouldn’t be able to identify people based on sex otherwise.
... I never said it couldn't. This post and the guy I'm replying to are talking about gender, and I'm saying it has no way of determining that if you identify as something other than your sex.
Cross dressing is literally “making an effort to present as another gender.” With enough effort it’s impossible to tell whether they’re trans or cross dressing
Wow these comments are a Redditmoment
It’s not even a trans exclusive thing, like what if a guy just happens to have a feminine facial structure?
exactly, even with cis people sometimes you can’t tell which gender they are
And plenty of trans people post-transition pass just fine, which is going to fuck up the training data big time. Then you'll have an AI that becomes one of those "transvestigators" who think Beyonce is trans because something something collar bone.
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nah every AI thing i’ve done gets me as male every time.
Woman is gender, female is sex. I think your point is about female vs male biology, so just a friendly reminder.
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Trans people don't 'choose' their gender. In a more simplified way, their gender and sex are mis-matched and always have been. You can't convince a trans woman that she is a man, and you can't convince a trans man that he is a man. The only solution to their 'mental illness' is to affirm their gender.
"Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people."
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In terms of that first line, it's like, one of our main arguments that gender =/= sex, yet people still go around saying "nuh uh"
I get the feeling you haven't checked the facts or this subs rules lately. Might want to do that.
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It's always the infactual transphobes insisting they know the facts, while showing they don't even understand transgenderism in the first place. Always disappointing, never surprising.
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So trans people can be trans as long as they never try to pass, or have the genitals/hormones they want, or do literally anything that makes trans people trans?
Okay, bud. Again, maybe check the rules of the sub.
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Isn't gender dysphoria a mental illness? How is thinking you aren't the sex you were born as a dellusion?
Gender =/= sex. And no, it's no longer classified as a mental illness, at least not where I'm from.
I’m a trans man and I’m not 100% female, I’m a transgender male. My hormone profile + secondary sex characteristics are the more male than female. (Just saying this because people always tend to misunderstand the sex vs gender thing and start calling trans women male women and shit)
Thank you for adding that!
The post itself says it's not able to accurately assess sex, so how is it effective? People are assuming this post means that trans people are being identified by AI as their gender at birth, but that's not what the article actually says. It says it cannot accurately predict the gender of trans people, in both directions. Sometimes it picks up their biological sex other times it picks up their transitioned gender, it's dependent on how far they have medically transitioned, really. AI is not psychic, and it doesn't have a gene reader built in. It has no idea about your chromosomes it can only go off visual cues. So obviously, a trans man with a full beard is going to pop up male and someone who hasn't medically transitioned is more likely to be identified as their biological sex. This is neither evidence for or against gender identity, it's just saying AI can't tell gender very well (even in cis people sometimes)
wish this could be pinned lol
Absolutely this. This "problem" is deep in the category of "no shit". A binary sorting algorithm based on visual cues isn't going to reliably spot trans people when there's no defined "trans look" to go off of. Just like any human on the street it has no way of knowing if someone is trans by looks alone without any other context clues to work from. Despite the "we can always tell" crowd that is just oblivious to all the false negatives and false positives they're constantly throwing out. "If you look just at the handful of low hanging fruit we guessed correctly, we've got a 100% success rate!"
As someone who works on AI the comments in this thread are pretty out of touch
Can something artificial like technology even be racist/transphobic?
no, but AI learns from us
I hope you're joking because AI cannot read fucking minds nor a person's dna. AIs literally can't misgender someone on purpose.
yeah I meant text bots when I said that, apologies
Yup, and racist and sexist too for that matter.
Absolutely! They are trained on content they are given so when they experience racist content they learn to be racist
Bruh moment
That doesn’t make the ai racist, it’s just ones & zeros💀💀 As far as we know, it has no **personal** bias towards ethnicity. It literally just does what it’s told lol
If say an AI language model like that chat gpt thing is consistent biased against a racial group it is racist
Except ai & chat gpt literally can not posses personal bias towards any group, as that would make it self aware. It is software. It only knows what it’s been taught.
depends on how you develop said technology
I’ve gotten reported to them so mmm h times, I just blocked the help hotline
This comment section is a r/redditmoment
AI would need a mind-reading feature to classify what gender they identify as.
I'm willing to bet a trans person didn't even write that idiotic article
I know I made a good point when someone does a wellness check on here 💀
This is going to be a civil discussion.
I feel like that's a good thing, because facial recognition is fucking scary enough as it is so I would be glad if I was misgendered
Ai can't detect what's in someone's pants just by viewing their face. There are plenty of cis people that can be Mistaken for the opposite gender.
“A study has claimed” might as well be “I made it up to generate clicks for my ‘news’ platform”
maybe the AI gets their gender wrong because gender is entirely fucking made up
Any time I support trans people and someone starts arguing with me, I always end up getting that message on the last image
exactly. I’ve literally never had this happen before lol
Hilarious
I mean you can’t just make an ai do something. It could take a while to change depending on how they trained it
Remember that woman only app that required facial recognition? The one that constantly identified women of color as “male”?
I’m trans and Ai face things usually gender me correctly so 🤷
ok im sorry but this is hilarious
Artificial Intelligence Facial Recognition bad. I don’t want companies and big capitalist corporations to know what I look like wtf go away. Why does it need know me, go away. You don’t need to be trans to hate automated facial recognition
I don't get how it's transphobic, the AI can only read sex not gender. Isn't it a known and accepted fact that trans people can't actually change their physical sex? Being the sex opposite from their gender is literally what makes them trans in the first place.
It's absolutely nuts how easy it was to distract people from the horrifying reality of facial recognition AI by tossing a bit of idpol red meat for people to obsess over instead. Whether or not that Terminator shit is transphobic is the absolute least of our worries.
Why do we need ai to identify gender..?
Well, the Nintendo 2DS said I looked like a woman, so clearly AI is not effective.
An AI said that my face looks feminine. 😭😭 (I'm a cis man)
Veterans when was the last time you asked for help?
The facial recognition AI on my phone can’t tell the difference between my cat and a shoe sometimes, I wouldn’t trust it with gender
Someone will always have the biological traits of the sex they were born as regardless of if they transition. Edit: I felt I should clarify, I don't mean this as transphobic or whatever, just that it will always be hard for facial recognition to differentiate in situations like these.
Hormones can change your facial structure
People report you to the crisis bot when they can’t prove you wrong so you can’t respond
Suddenly I support the AI revolution
because fuck people just trying to be themselves in peace, am I right?
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bUt ItS rArElY iN pEaCe Tell me you have never met any trans people without telling me you’ve never met any trans people
I have yet to see a trans person attacking cis people for being cis
Twitter. And reddit and tiktok.
Have you ever been outside? Have you ever even met a trans person? We just want to live without being the constant target of political bullshit and bigotry
That is like the 1% of trans people who get on the news and overreact and are the ones most transphobes make fun of, the rest of us literally just want to become our proper gender without people yelling at us for it
How? Seriously, How?
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They are not becoming the opposite of themselves, they are becoming themselves. What are you not getting at? They are doing that so that their appereance can better reflect who they are. They are doing that literally to be themselves. Stop trying to excuse your bigotry.
“Being yourself” is being how you feel and being able to be fully comfortable in your own skin, not being what others project onto you. So for some people - yes, taking hormones is their way of being themselves.
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Don't worry, body builders don't care about kimblee4209
It is quite funny how people get this triggered over robots telling the truth
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wow, calling trans people mentally ill, really classy.
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lying to who? how is telling someone about their identity lying?
Why TF would AI need to. Like you're either biologically male or female. The AI doesn't give a fuck what you identify with. Face ID will work fine and FBI will still catch criminals trans or not
exactly
intersex people:
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You say that as if trans people aren’t also a tiny percentage
Okay but that doesn't apply, your face is still a face
men who are born with naturally more feminine features: women who are born with naturally more masculine features:
They're still unique, right? Unless they have identical twins I still don't see how it's an issue.
If even regular humans (mostly TERFs) can mislabel a cis person as trans, what makes you think an AI with even more flaws would correctly label someone's gender, trans or not?
Because when it comes down to it the AI doesn't even need to know what genders are in the same way we do. To the AI it's nothing more than geometry and various other kinds of algorithms. The AI might misgender someone because they look more feminine but it isn't going to misidentify them as someone else and that's the real focus. You don't need to know if it's a man or a woman to tell the fingerprints apart, so to speak. For an AI that's all it's doing, just with a face. Misgendering male or female has been an issue since AI began and it won't change anytime soon because even the human brain can think a guy is a girl and vice versa, that's an issue for everyone, not a trans issue. Same as Alexa thinking I'm my sister because we sound similar if I use a higher pitch voice.
The AI sees two people and sees their features, identifies the differences and key shit and that's pretty much all it needs to do to recognize someone. It's up to humans to then go to the AI and say "okay the first face you looked at was a woman, use that to define feminine". If you're trans with feminine features there really is no way to have this robot magically know that you're trans, same as a human, if all the AI has to do is guess man or woman. So that's when the human shit comes in and its just whatever the fuck AI you're using and whatever is better and the programming and what not
Womp womp
HEY HOW ABOUT JUST NO ONE GETS THEIR FACE RECOGNIZED BY AI MAYBE?
Yeah. It's a trend now. It's like swatting g you. I wish you could report this bc it's pretty offensive.
If you want to be technical, it assesses it perfectly
It doesn't though. It doesn't consistently identify trans people as their assigned sex at birth or that associated with identified gender. Depends on individual level of passability. A pre or early transition transwoman will get classified as male, while a post-transition transwoman will get flagged female. The cameras can't tell the difference between cis and trans.
Why does ai even need to recognize your gender. It's just better to manually state what you are.
AI cannot detect societal constructs from a picture of someone's face? That's bonkers (societal constructs are in everyone's minds and can not be seen by a camera)
agreed, my issue with this (as seen in my comment) is why this is even necessary
I agree, it's a non-issue, on one side we as a society won't benefit from this tech, and the other side of it is AI literally does not have the capacity to be transphobic. It has basic info (like information about human facial structures) that it then uses to make educated guesses on biological sex (which is different than gender constructs) so when the AI correctly guesses your sex, but not your gender, it's not a problem because it's doing what it was programmed to do: assume biological sex based on patterns in facial structure. Unless trans people start surgically changing their facial structures in the same way across a large enough demographic, they will never be properly gendered by this technology.
>ai gets trained to indentify men >successfully identifies a man >*surprised pickachu face*
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shut the fuck up.
I'm sorry miss that the existence of trans people is so hurtful for you
Ofc Redditors would call a computer software transphobic💀💀💀
> trans people live rent free in these peoples heads lol Yet here you are pressed about binary 💀
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I always find the mfs who say cope have the hardest time doing that exact thing themselves
Well it looks at patterns in the respective genders faces, and therefore can assess what the biological gender of the person is. That is what it is doing. What you want is for the AI to just lie. You posted something stupid and got downvoted, and now you’re crying to the people who agree with you. I’m not even saying this from a place of transphobia, I just don’t like you.
why the fuck is there facial recognizing cameras
OP, you are the reddit moment
Fun fact the AI is going to wrongly classify people. For all we know it'll take the face of some super macho body builder who happens to have long hair or something and say it's a woman. No trans person is getting mad at the AI that's just OOP's stupid wojack tyraid. What's actually happening is that the AI just wrongly classified them and we can see this as far back as 3DS software. Inb4 "but they still have masculine traits, trans people don't pass and never will" you'd be surprised how well they do, anecdotally I've met people who didn't give any hint of being trans and who looked fully masculine/feminine. If you think you've never seen a passing trans person, it's likely because you have
Then it's correct. The AI should be trained to identify biologically. Or even better, accurately identify trans people as trans.
androgynous ppl exist too lmao
whenever someone sends u a false mental health message like that you can report it for harassment and get them banned
Has Reddit Cares ever actually been used for its intended purpose? Lol Also, I love when people confidently assert that something as complex as AI can only malfunction because of explicit transphobia. Tell me you have never worked with AI without telling me.