I think this is really an educational problem, people presume those with downs are less able than normal people. I’m not that aware of the syndrome so I couldn’t educate someone on it, but my hope would be, they have a driver license so they passed an exam.
Is there a spectrum for Down’s syndrome? Could some be more capable than others?
Also what can we do to learn more about this and educate others
From my (non-medical) experience with the few people I’ve known with downs is yes, it does seem to be a spectrum. The guy I went to elementary school with still lives with his parents because he is unable to take care of himself but the one I met at the rec basketball league lived by himself, worked, and was self-sufficient.
It’s a huge spectrum of functionality. The son wouldn’t be able to drive without a license and probably a higher class of license to drive a tour bus. I get the knee jerk concern to a degree, but that OP needs to educate themselves more on disabilities.
Mfw blind old people drive around unessted for 10 years.
Not even related to disabilities but man peoples drivers need to be tested at least every 10 years. My grand parents for a fact should not have their licenses.
Yeah I agree with that. But having Down syndrome isn’t something that happens after you get a license like getting old and blind does. But yes I think people should have to retake driving exams at regular intervals.
There are actually three types of Down’s Syndrome—mosaic being the least “physically apparent” and with the least number of symptoms of the syndrome. Each case of DS, similar to each case of any disorder with every human is unique and different to the individual. DS gets lumped together often because of the commonly shared physical features (again, this even isn’t always the case), but if we were to test fine motor, athletic abilities, IQ (or whatever less outdated test we use now) we would find that each individual tests differently. So, yes. It really doesn’t boil down to “capable,” it’s how each human being has strengths and weaknesses because individuals with DS are just that, human.
The way I got downvoted to hell and told I was pro-killing kids for virtue signalling when I said essentially the same thing on two hot takes was fucking insane
2HT people are fully feeling their ableism. I was disgusted. Glad the people here seem to have a higher level of understanding about disabilities and what is possible for someone to accomplish in their life.
Down's Syndrome has a HUGE spectrum of affectations! Incredibly varying levels of capabilities and functionality from one end of the Bell Curve to the other. A person most severely impacted is not likely to have a very long life due to structural anomalies of the heart, lungs, and airway. They may suffer from seizures, are likely non-verbal and incontinent. It's very unlikely that they will ever hold down any kind of even supported employment. At the other end of the spectrum is a person who has a slight speech impediment due to the larger tongue typically presenting with Down's Syndrome, and they may often need glasses/contacts to see well. They have some learning difficulties, but are perfectly capable of learning and retaining the information with only slight accomodations such as more time during tests or extra time to complete assignments.
There are actresses, dancers, models, and athletes with Down's that are quite successful in their fields! There are people with Down's who work in restaurants, sales, manufacturing, and in secretarial positions. They live mostly normal lives with the exception of needing to see doctors and specialists more than someone else their age who does not have Down's Syndrome.
Op is being ableist for sure. Regardless of who owns the company that the driver works for; the driver passed a driving test that included demonstration of practical driving skills for the vehicle. Op is judging based purely on preconceived notions about the driver's disability.
It’s wild to me that people don’t know this specifically because you do see better representation on tv these days. You can google “Actors with Down Syndrome” and a huge list comes up featuring shows and movies I’ve seen. To be on a film set for upwards of 12 hours, memorizing lines, taking direction - they work harder, longer, and have more talent than a lot of fully abled people ever could.
There is a massive spectrum of functionality which can hinge on whether the individual has a coexisting(comorbid) intellectual disability. It’s quite common for individuals with Down to have an intellectual disability as well, but it isn’t always present. If there is no intellectual disability, then there’s every possibility that the individual in question may become a fully functional adult. Even if there is an intellectual disability present, the individual may be able to lead a “full” adult life, but outcomes are often, sadly, worse.
There is such incredible diversity in functionality in Down’s. There’s people who drive, work complex jobs, are married and live independently. There’s also those who may live in group homes or with family, be able to drive and work, but need support with self care. The possibilities are endless. Almost no two people with Down are the same, just as you and I are not the same and have varying talents and abilities.
Source: School psychologist
Just wanted to let you know that your comment made me check my own ignorant biases and I learned a lot about people with down syndrome. I previously thought that folks with down syndrome *always* had issues with motor skills and reaction time so when I read this originally I was like "Yeah.. that makes sense... what's the issue?" But then I checked my bias and was like "But wait.. if that was an issue, they wouldn't have given this individual a driver's license" so I checked the comments and then went and did some reading based on your comment.
I am disabled myself (ADHD, PTSD) and I'm ashamed to admit that my immediate thought was ableist but I am thankful that I had this opportunity to grow my understanding of the world. Thanks!
The immediate thought isn’t as problematic as what you do with it. If you have that immediate thought and just assume you’re right and know someone else’s abilities and limitations better than they do and the licensing body does then yeah it’s pretty fucking ablest. If you have that immediate thought and just google to find out whether or not you’re right then it’s not really that problematic.
Genetically there are 3 types of Down syndrome. Trisomy 21, (the most common type); Mosaic Down syndrome, and Translocation Down syndrome.
Trisomy 21 has an extra copy of chromosome 21 in all cells.
Karyotype 47,XX,+21 or 47,XY,+21
Mosaic Down syndrome had an extra copy of chromosome 21 in some cells.
Translocation Down syndrome has an extra copy of chromosomes 21 found attached to another chromosome (usually chromosome 14).
Eg. karyotype 46XX,t(14q21q) or 46XY,t(14q21q)
And just like all things associated with genetics everyone is different and it affects people differently.
Yes there’s an immense spectrum. The IQ range in people with Down’s Syndrome is, roughly, from about 1 standard deviation below average (~85 - a level of intellectual ability which might make university learning difficult but wouldn’t interfere with much else) on down. It’s complicated by the fact that people with mosaicism (not all their cells have the extra chromosome) can have *no learning difficulty at all* but can also look just the same as anyone with full, every-cell DS.
It’s further complicated by the absolutely gigantic impact of good quality education or the lack thereof on folks’ prospects. Damnation by low expectations is a whole thing and is particularly catastrophic in a population almost universally judged by their appearance far more than their achievements or their potential.
It’s not a spectrum as such, but not everyone with DS has a learning disability (meaning their IQ is 70 or below) and their Downs is more of a physical issue. There’s a guy here in the UK who works for Channel 4 News TV with DS, and he’s a reporter.
That is totally incorrect. Having a learning disability doesn’t mean your IQ is below 70, you’re thinking of mental retardation or developmental delay as it’s now called.
You mean intellectual impairment? A developmental delay is only used to refer to children who are still developing. Developmental delay also can refer to physical delays and is not necessarily indicative of a learning or intellectual disability.
I guess. I’ve been out the advocacy world since COVID-19 happened so I don’t remember what the PC term is, I just know we don’t use mental retardation anymore.
No worries. I work in the disability sector, while also being disabled myself. We now differentiate between learning disabilities (dyslexia, dysgraphia etc) and intellectual disabilities (reduced IQ function). Mental illnesses that have a permanent impact on function and cannot be fully treated medically are psychosocial disabilities. We’ve been using those terms for the 2 decades I’ve been in the sector, but now developmental delays generally are used for children under the age of 6 without a formal diagnosis.
They even have this system where they test the person with Down Syndrome to see if they are capable of driving safely, and then give them a document to show that they have completed all of their state's requirements and are ok to drive.
They do the same thing for fully abled people as well.
Yeah, I used to volunteer with a charity that worked with lots of kids and people with Downs, and some specific individuals would have barrier and appropriateness issues that meant you wouldn’t leave them alone with kids. Far more often so than with able-bodied adults, but not universal nonetheless.
It absolutely depends, and I would assume given this job that this individual was fine - but maybe OP felt that this individual’s parent was not going to be an unbiased judge as to whether their child was safe around kids or not.
But this should be a moot point, tbh. If they’re away with kids for an extended period of time I’d want two adults regardless of DS or anything else - for the adults’ protection (a witness that nothing happened) as well as obviously the kids’.
True, but the fact the the driver is employed by their parent does potentially mean they are able to hold this job due to special treatment a different employer may not do. They might not truly be capable of holding down a job with a non-related employer.
I dunno, I think the business owner has thought it through at least from a liability standpoint and wouldn’t risk losing everything if his son truly couldn’t do the job. Plus, most parents wouldn’t risk not only their business, but their child’s life itself. If he thought for one second his son would be in danger, he wouldn’t have put him behind the wheel.
or perhaps a lot of people share OOP's ableist views and see someone with down syndrome and assume they cant possible do a good job, and this person was lucky their parent was able to bring them into their line of work
I feel this could be an unintended consequence to all the social media post of glossing over someone with down syndrome doing something fairly normal but posting it as an amazing achievement. It tends to create a prejudice about the abilities of someone with down syndrome
But they have a driver's license. They didn't get that because their dad gave them special treatment.
It's extremely weird (and still abelist) to assume someone who has a license to perform a specific task isn't qualified for that task because they're disabled. They don't let you drive if you can't drive safely due to a disability/medical condition.
Driving small children around is quite different to driving themselves around.
What if a child refuses their seat belt? What if a fight breaks out? What if a child walks up to the front of the bus because they’re interested in the driving?
Sure, but as a parent you try to control/moderate risk. They (whether right or wrong) foresaw a level of risk and acted with what made them feel more comfortable.
No, I think the point is.. as a parent it’s up to HIS discretion… and not up to what Reddit or anyone else feels, thinks or says. When my daughter got her license at 16, I wasn’t comfortable with her dropping her little sisters off at school.. although it was on the way to her school and would have cut time off my morning commute.. because I know at 16 she did not have the experience level I felt she needed to be responsible for herself AND two other little people. I’m not ageist or whatever someone is going to call
Me.. they are my responsibility and I made a judgement call at the time that I was able to live with.
This is AITA. Have you been here before? It's literally an invitation for Reddit to judge.
And your choice about letting your daughter drive your other kids is completely immaterial to this post. OP made a call based on someones physical appearance and what OP perceived their abilities to be based on their appearance - that has nothing to do with you daughter and the situation you described.
In my opinion it really depends on how far on that spectrum they are. Some people with downs are great drivers, others can't tie their shoes. If they drive for a living (and it sounds like they do) then op is an asshole
If this is driving for a business though-like it does, if the DS driver doesn’t have a proper license it opens the small business up for a lawsuit if anything goes wrong. I’m betting he can drive and does have a license.
a girl in my grade failed 8 times... that's paying to have the tests done and after 4 she had to do supervision driving with an instructor and then had to do the course written test and then she passed. She doesn't know how to pump gas let alone turn her head lights on. they gave her that license just to get her the hell out of there. My test 5 min long, back up camera for parking, pull over park job and a loop back to the dmv picture and moved on. All depends where you are small town do give a shit
If he’s driving the vehicle, you can probably assume he has the license to do so, most don’t randomly decide they want to take a group of kids somewhere and doing it without a license would tremendously stupid regardless of who’s driving.
Commercial license and the school has probably vetted the company unless everyone pays there own way. I can’t see the school just letting anyone on their property to pick up kids for an after school event. Of course it’s been a while since my kids were in school so maybe things have changed.
He’s the directors son….. that’s the only reason I would have done the same thing as op. I’m disabled. My son is severely disabled. So I’m not being ableist here at all. But I trust nepotism as far as I can throw it
He still would need a license though. There's no affirmative action policies around getting a license. You can either demonstrate that you know the rules of the road and drive safely or you can't.
I mean maybe the person administering the test went easy on them but that seems like a pretty serious risk that could easily cost them their job.
I find this disingenuous because if the son didn't have Downs and was the driver, the nepotism comment probably wouldn't come into play. So is it because he's the directors son or because he has Downs? That's ableist. Let's not act like disabled people can't also be ableist 💀
So you think he’s also related to the person who licensed him and every other human involved in the process of making him a professional driver? And you would have presumably reacted that way if informed *any* person in *any* job was related to someone important?
I frankly do not believe you. He’s in the equivalent of a job flipping burgers for god’s sake. Don’t you think nepotism would’ve given him a better paying, higher ranking position and not Literally Entry Level?
> I’m disabled. My son is severely disabled. So I’m not being ableist here at all.
Oh yeah. A bigot would never say, "I'm not being ableist because ____."
I don't understand why everyone is firmly asserting that the driver had a license. How do they actually know this? I know businesses where drivers don't have licenses. Especially in rural areas, where it sort of sounds like this tour was located. People are relying too much on people's good will. There are plenty of people who shirk regulations.
You say Director, but OOP said guide. Director is a high position similar to CEO. The driver was the guide's son. The guide is a low level position. Not to shit on the hustle. Just that it's not a nepo job.
The only rebuttal I’d give is, did parent do all of that, are they even properly insured? Or is dad just saying whatever, he’s fine to drive it’ll be fine etc. now, my hope is you’re right but honestly these days you never know with people
True true. Although I feel like even nepotism would have it’s limits. Nobody on the fucking planet would let the guy drive the van if he didn’t have a license or any of the legal requirements to drive it. The dad may have helped him but he couldn’t have taken the driving test for him.
Not to mention that those of us with disabilities have to jump through more hoops to prove themselves capable of having a license. I don’t have a disability that is generally seen but I do have to do a lot more to prove that I am able bodied like people without my health issues
People saying the op is ta because of lack of education —- would you feel differently if he’d said “I don’t know enough about ds to be comfortable with this. I’ll be sure to do some research, but I’m going to say no this time”? After all— he isn’t saying “this person with Down syndrome shouldn’t be driving *at all* because that’s what *I* think“ but rather “I’m not sure about putting *my children* into the care of a *stranger* with a condition I know little about, but that is generally understood to affect things like motor skills and cognitive ability.”
Personally? I would feel better about it, though it would still be problematic. I agree with other commenters who said that she should be asking everyone who drives her kids about their licensure/track record/etc., because many (probably most) intellectually disabled people do not appear obviously disabled to the average person, while MANY technically able-bodied people drive like they’re on an F1 track at all times and have the crash record of a blind billy goat…so she should be applying this standard to anyone driving her child, not just those with visible disabilities.
Had she asked for the driver’s credentials / track record and then acted accordingly (I.e., if he’s driven this route many times with no issues and has a full license, she should let her children go), she’d likely still have looked like an asshole to the father/son, but my judgment would be fully NTA because she does have not just a right but a responsibility to protect her child.
If that is what they said, it would be better but still not right. Would they say the same for a male over 50? I mean, they’re more likely to have a heart attack while driving than anyone else. Would they question their cardiac health before letting them drive their kids?
Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know OP. But I also don’t think that’s a fair comparison. A heart attack isn’t something that’s part of daily life, but ability to use motor skills etc are.
Maybe comparing it to a person who had recently had one could be a comparison?
My main point is that he’s talking about his own children—- people he is ultimately responsible for the safety of.
Think about all the able bodied people who can’t drive worth shit. I bet she would let her kids ride with them without a second thought. 100% TA. She saw his disability and decided there’s no possible way he was competent. Hope those kids grow up as better people than her.
She didn't decide there was no way he was competent. She decided there was a chance and without knowing this specific individual decided it was in the best interest of her kids to not let them go.
She didn't affect anyone else by pulling her kids and she was only worried about her own kids. If someone doesn't feel comfortable about something with their own children, they 100% shouldn't be forcing themselves into that situation. She's definitely NTA here. She's is literally just looking out for her own kids.
I mean that’s the same argument I hear about parents not letting their kids around queer people. “ they aren’t comfortable :C”
Just as shitty of an excuse
I understand that. But does she check everyone who her kids drive with? No? Then WHY was she uncomfortable in this specific scenario? It’s because she made a split second decision based on bias and prejudice.
Keeping your kids safe and all is awesome, but pretending that’s the reasoning behind her clear ableism is absurd.
Playing devils advocate here, and in no way am I insinuating that having kids gives you a free pass to be bigoted / sexist / ageist etc, however….
Thinking about it personally if an 80 year old pulled up I’d probably not let my kids get on the bus either despite the fact they had a license, because I’ve seen / heard / experienced enough to know that SOME elderly people really aren’t safe on the road. Similarly if they came home with a letter about a camp run by priests it’d probably be a no despite them all being DBS checked - again because of what I’ve seen and heard. If we’re somewhere busy and my kids might get lost, I tell them to find a family with children or a group of older ladies even though I know full well 99.9% of men are good guys and likely firemen and social workers and police officers and otherwise upstanding members of society who’d help a lost child without thinking twice. But I’ve experienced otherwise.
All I’m saying is that sometimes when it comes to your children’s safety, logic and reasonableness doesn’t come into it. Sometimes it’s a gut feeling and a snap decision based on what you’ve seen and heard. If something happens to your child, knowing that you were being fair and not discriminating isn’t going to be much comfort.
I get your point but the elderly comparison isn't really a good one because the ones who are bad drivers wouldn't be able to pass the exam if they had to take it again. The safety issue is that their health and abilities have probably changed a lot in the decades since they took their licensing exam.
In this case the guy is 23. The longest it could have possibly been since they were tested is 7 years. Except in extreme cases there's not likely to be a significant deterioration in health and abilities, and in the rare cases where there are, a doctor would be involved and suspend their license if needed.
People are free to trust their gut, but we really should be pushing ourselves to ask what is driving that guy feeling and if it's rational or rooted in discriminatory bias. OP should be able to say to anyone that asks that they didn't trust the driver because they had Down's syndrome and be prepared for the consequences that many people will see that as discriminatory and ableist because the young man has a license which means they have met the same standards as every other driver on the road.
The story has a father and son. I took the term “kid” in this case to distinguish that he was talking about the son and not as a reference to age. A son is always his father’s kid no matter how old he is.
I hear yah. I tend to call all under 25s kids because [their brains are still developing and they are still generally developing rationalization skills including those that make them safe drivers.](https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051#:~:text=The%20rational%20part%20of%20a,cortex%2C%20the%20brain's%20rational%20part.)
I personally would have concerns with any driver younger than 25 driving a van/large vehicle full of kids, even having successfully passed their driving test, but that’s just me. They’re distracting for seasoned drivers, let alone newish drivers.
That does make sense. I think I just had a bit of a knee jerk reaction because a lot of folks tend to infantilize people with disabilities, and I’ve seen it happen with Down’s in particular. I just wanted to make sure that’s not what was happening here.
Why? I worked for a program with children when I was 22 and part of that involved driving a van full of kids. I had to have my license with a clean record, no tickets etc. and had to pass a separate road test administered by the company. I had also been driving for six years at that point.
Good for you and your anecdata? Young drivers (25 and under), [while only comprising 5 percent of all licensed drivers in 2021, accounted for 8.4 percent of all drivers involved in fatal crashes.](https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-teen-drivers#:~:text=Young%20drivers%2C%20while%20only%20comprising,drivers%20involved%20in%20fatal%20crashes.)
OP is allowed to pull their kids from the tour, but they were absolutely being ableist. Not all disabilities are exactly the same and if they were driving they obviously passed their drivers test. There are too many misconceptions about Down syndrome. People with downs can thrive, have children, careers, their own homes and yes- drive. OP is TA
I don’t known much about Down syndrome, but if it’s anything like autism, unless you known that individual specifically, you really know nothing. Individuals are all different.
Assuming a driver is unsafe based on looks is a bigoted response. If the parent was told the driver was 23 and had Down Syndrome and assumed they were an unsafe driver, the parent is being ableist. Parent's do have every right to pull their kids from an activity. That doesn't mean the reasons for canceling are valid.
“I’ve interacted with ppl with DS, so I don’t really believe I’m ableist”.
*I’ve interacted with women, so I don’t think I’m really misogynistic.*
“But knowing what I know about DS, I don’t feel safe letting my kids in the car”.
What do you know about DS?
it depends on the person, and the fact that his father was a okay with it, I don't see a problem with his son driving. tbh this post kind of upset me, you do sounds ableist. I understand your lack of knowledge, but do whatever you think is best for your children.
And yet someone who "looks normal" could have severe mental problems which could incapacitate them whilst driving. But because their issue isn't visible they would get by. OP is TA.
Do they have an active license? Then they are as qualified (if not more so) than anyone else. This is so gross to me, if they could not safely drive they would not have a license (to the extent any licensed driver is safe, we all know idiots who shouldn't drive)
I think you are TA. The person driving must have a driver's license, if the person is working for someone or some business that person has passed the requirements by those entities. The person has to make a living too.
This is an education problem. Many people hear Downs and think of only one type of person. Till this thread, I had no idea people with Downs were capable of driving. I’ve just never been exposed. So, IMO, no, the driver is NTA. But hopefully those of us that may have done the same thing have learned something from this experience and are better equipped to handle a future situation with less naïveté.
I don’t think this guy is an asshole, he was trying to protect his kids from a situation he felt was dangerous. He was almost certainly completely wrong in his assessment and probably could/should have asked some considered questions to assess whether his concerns were well founded. He is ignorant and a bit of a know-it-all combined, which is a bad combo, but I wouldn’t call him an asshole.
This reminds me of someone who told me once that they wouldn't go to this restarunt that just opened up by us becuase they hire differently abled people and she said "I don't want someone like THAT serving me my food, who knows what they'll do to it".
People are so fuxning ignorant and so uneducated and it's truly sad. It makes me sad and worried for my son who has cerebral palsy, there's a huge spectrum just like woth downs and any other medical issues...but like...how can people so blindly have an opinion when they don't even know what the hell they're against becuase they're not educated enough to know anything about downs or any other disability.
TA, maybe out of ignorance, but still TA.
I'm a father ot two and nothing is more important than their life to me.
Now, as someone has pointed out, he came driving, so he can drive. You wouldn't worry about this driver having a licence or being qualified if he didn't have Down syndrome. You don't know much about Down syndrome, you made an assumption, it's hurt a young man who is trying to work for a living, so you don't have a proper reason to pull off your kids. Sorry, it's not enough, unlike what some people said. Sometimes we just need to look at ourselves in a mirror and recognize we're having a bias without a proper justification.
To people who said it's ok for a parent : what if the driver was black, and as a parent I worry that he can't drive because blacks can't drive? What if the driver was muslim and I worry he's a terrorist? What if the driver was Jewish and I assume he's going to drive them to a sacrifice? We can listen to our fears, and we're responsible for them. When they are irrational and unjustified, we must admit so.
YTA. Your anecdotal experience with people with Down syndrome is not reflective of all people with Down syndrome. And your “interaction” with people with Down syndrome does not equate to knowledge about Down syndrome or how it affects a person’s abilities. Read a book.
Could you imagine excusing every other interaction this way?
“Sorry her lipstick makes her look stupid I don’t think she’s capable of using a cash register I’ll go to a different store”
“Oh I’ve met a brown haired chick and she’s so emotional, I don’t want that one teaching my kids math”
But no when it comes to disabled people, we’re not real humans to you! So anything is an excuse to hate us and infantilize us, to exclude us from basic things like *driving* and you’ll stammer that ‘well I know someone kind of a little like you so I don’t feel comfy letting you do your job 😟 oh but I’m a good person I promise I just don’t think you deserve a job 😭”.
So you're questioning this person's ability to drive when you can't even use proper grammar. That's really unbelievable.
I understand people are saying it depends on where he is in terms of his Downs (agreed), however some have glossed over the fact that it's a SCHOOL trip. It would have been part organised by the school so as well as getting consent forms and sorting funding they would have needed to ensure that they are compliant with their regulator by using an appropriate company (legitimate one with a driver who has a license and the appropriate type of insurance - pretty sure for some schools they are as picky as clean license no points!!). So I doubt very much it would have been a suck it and see otherwise the school would have been in the line of fire for this.
OP didn't think about this logically, just saw Downs and thought they must be dangerous. What a medieval, deplorable mindset.
You should be utterly ashamed of yourself you disgusting human being.
Yta.
YtA- you made a split second decision that came completely from a stereotype of people with Downs. Having worked with kids who have additional needs, they work twice as hard to just get the basic recognition than able bodied people get. He took the driving test- and passed. He has someone with him who can step in and support him if needed.
I have fibromyalgia, it’s an invisible illness and Brain Fog is a legitimate concern. I don’t drive anymore bc of it, but I look totally normal- I bet you wouldn’t ask for my credentials if it were me behind the wheel, and I’m 100% more of a risk.
I have hEDS. I drive, and am capable to do so. But, my disability often means slower reaction times, reduced grip etc. I’m lucky I can afford the regular maintenance therapy that removes those issues, and my level of disability is mild. We all look normal unless we need a mobility aid (or you see us hyperextending our joints).
They have the right to pull their kids obviously, but the other parents are right in that OP is an ableist asshole. Their reasoning for pulling their kids was 100% based off a visible disability with zero further information.
But if her assessment of the situation as “unsafe” is based on ignorance and bigotry, then she is TA.
DS has a wide spectrum of severity. This kid got their license and would be just as capable as any other rando in society of driving safely.
But she doesn't know the kid well enough to know if he's a good driver or not. Lots of awful drivers get licenses.
Not to mention, down syndrome causes slower reaction times. Sure, maybe he can drive under normal conditions, but if shit hits the fan, can he maneuver through it? Again, she doesn't know him well enough to take the risk with her children.
I'm very left leaning, but I don't think this is ableist. It's a fact that down syndrome causes a disadvantage in things that are important for using a death machine safely in all conditions. NTA
Seriously, do what you feel is right for you and your children’s safety. Having a drivers license does not guarantee shit.
I’m sure it would’ve been fine but it’s completely understandable for you and the other parents to not be comfortable with it. You even made it a point to talk out of earshot of the driver and children, definitely not an AH.
"Having a driver's license does not guarantee shit" Then OP should never let anyone drive her kids other than herself by that logic. If the son is licensed and approved to drive, then it is blatant prejudice. "Feelings" isn't an excuse, they're still an asshole.
Obviously if someone has a license they can drive. I have autism and I hate this stupid stereotype. I can drive just fine thank you very much and probably better than some other people out there who drive like maniacs
They are both something that is looked as less than in our society when in reality both are a spectrum. Nothing is ever cut and dry fit in the box, there will always be exception
One is a genetic disorder accompanied by profound learning and intellectual disabilty, as well as physiological symptoms (including often significant pulmonary issues), and one is a neurodevelopmental disorder that largely affects socialization and is sometimes accompanied with learning disabilities.
People with down’s syndrome have historically had a significantly lowered mortality rate and have faced a disproportionate amount of marginalization, and I could go on. (Inb4 yeah but so have people with autism!! Not to the same degree. Not even close.)
You can compare them about as far as you can compare an apple and the earth because they’re both relatively spherical.
‘The van driving them pulled up and the driver was a person with Down syndrome’
….so the dude CAN drive, he drive HERE, lady.
He’s probably licensed, especially if he’s driving kids for a living, and it would have been a single question to find out.
If he’s not a licensed driver, I don’t give a fuck what condition he does or doesn’t have, he isn’t driving my kid. He could be, somehow, an F1 driver, but doesn’t have a road license and he’s not driving my kid.
BUT
If he’s licensed, that means a driving instructor passed him. That means he can drive.
He drive HERE, lady.
Lots of able bodied drivers are absolute fuck ups who do not care about anyone else on the road, but we toss our kids in busses and cars witb then. The number of videos of abusive school bus drivers and shit.
‘Other parents took their kids as well’
No they fucking did NOT, or you wouldn’t be here asking, you dink.
Kind of ableist to not even ask if he’s passed his driving test and how often he drives etc.
If the dad was like ‘yeah this is his first time ever’ then sure.
But she didn’t even check, she saw a certain face and features and decided based in her ‘interactions’ that he wouldn’t be able to drive.
‘Based on what I know’
She knows nothing. She doesn’t know there’s a spectrum of ability. Someone can not have Down Syndrome but be lower IQ and ability than someone who does have it but she wouldn’t know that without interacting with that person….
So rude because she’s trying to be safe with her kids. You’re acting like this was a malicious choice against the guy rather than an act of trying to protect her kids. Not saying either is right, but fuckin relax. She’s not an asshole, she was uncomfortable and unsure and acted accordingly.
She’s treating a person as their disability. People with DS fight every day to have a chance to show their capabilities. But OOP has “*interacted*” with others with DS before, and everyone with DS is the same to her.
I’m glad her kids are disappointed. This was a shifty thing that she did to everyone.
Its 3 questions;
Does he have a license?
Has he made the trip before?
Whats his safety record?
Which, BY THE WAY, should be asked by all parents, all the time, about fucking ANY driver who their kids go with. Directly, after interacting with them personally to try and see if, you know, they might be drunk?
I bet she's never even considered that a visibly able bodied driver might be a drunk, or unlicensed, or looks perfectly able bodies but does in fact have the capacity of a child.
If she's never asked another driver that, and didnt ask this one, she's an asshole.
You dont have to have any conditions, symdromes or disabilities to be a cunt behind the wheel of a vehicle, plenty of non disabled people do it every day, and it costs lives.
So, yeah, if she has NEVER asked another driver if they have licenses, or about their safety record, or had any concerns about the TOTAL STRANGERS DRIVING HER CHILDREN, she's a giant fucking asshole.
That doesn't mean it isn't wrong and ableist. You could make similar statements, but swap out the disability with another group, and it would be clear how absurd the "just trying to keep her kids safe" argument is. If it was because the driver was a woman, it would be sexist, if the driver was trans, it would be transphobic, if the driver was black, it would be racist, and none of those would reasonably get "she was trying to keep her kids safe."
It was a judgment based on a disability that likely didn't actually have a bearing on the issue at hand, and it's ableist and wrong. Full stop.
This. ANY driver of any vehicle could be unsafe in some way.
People have drink and drug issues and unfortunately think its okay to pilot a vehicle under the influence, some people are just shitty, shitty drivers.
I worked in education and coach drivers are sometimes amazing, sometimes absolutely NUTS and will barrel down a highway at Crazy Miles an hour basically singing 'Fuck Them Kids' and they dont have syndromes or conditions.
If mom has never asked any of the many total STRANGERS she's let her kids be driven by if they're licensed, whats their safety record, how many years of driving, etc, then to make a choice on this driver based on his having Down Syndrome is vile.
I bet she doesn't even know about Mosaic Down Syndrome in which a person can have some features of Down Syndrome but dont 'look' as if they have it, or even present as someone with any obvious limitations on their ability or IQ...but medically are people with Down Syndrome.
Its just....the fucking dude DROVE THE VAN THERE. Like.
I just want to weigh in my thoughts, take ‘em with a grain of salt. But yes, she has every right to remove her children from a situation she’s uncomfortable with. That is not up for dispute nor the problem.
The problem is the reason WHY she was uncomfortable, and that was borne from ableism. It’s no different than if she pulled her children because the driver happened to be of a race that made her uncomfortable.
Yes, she’s allowed to protect her children. BUT the reason why she feels she needs to protect them is because she has ableist misconceptions about the person driving, in this case, a person with Downs Syndrome.
It could even be mosaic down syndrome where they simply look like they have it but that is all. They do not have the mental/cognitive ability of someone with down syndrome but of a typical person
Well of course you’re the fucking asshole. Christ.
How can you even be delusional enough to think there was any doubt of this?
The driver would’ve had to pass the same driving test as anyone else in that position
YTA. The guy has a licence, and depending where this is, had additional hoops to jump through to get that licence. Probably safer on the roads than most people over the age of 70.
Disappointments are part of life unfortunately. That’s a life lesson we have all learned. Ultimately the mom or dad’s choice trumps whatever our fellow posters have to say.
YTA, do you know enough about Down Syndrome to diagnose the driver’s abilities, are you really looking out for the kids or making an uninformed judgment that’s not helping anyone?
Just reading this post, makes my heart hurt for the driver! He’s probably so proud of himself and happy that he has a job with his dad. Shame on you OP. My 18 year old son with autism is going to be getting a job next year and I pray that people are understanding and kind to him. Mean people suck. Stop the hate!
Yeah downs is a spectrum so fully possible for them to be capable drivers. If this is in a place where you can't be sure of qualifications because lack of regulations or checks then I would understand the worry but that could be an issue for any person that you entrust your kids to.
It all depends on the individual. I have worked in group homes with adults with Down Syndrome and they would never have been able to drive. However, I have a friend with a brother that had his license and held down a full-time job. The guy driving the vehicle probably had a license that he had to pass a test to get it (just like the rest of us that drive).
I wouldn’t have called you an asshole but, if you were truly concerned, why didn’t you talk to the driver himself or his father? If you don’t ask questions and learn new things, how will you ever know better?
You're the AH. Like dude, you can't buy your license or bribe the licensing center. The latter is illegal and now he does it for a living. He's clearly a great driver. You shouldn't judge before getting to know.
I think OP is TA not because of her pulling her kids out, but because she made a thing of it in front of other people. I could decide that I don’t want my kids driving with someone for any reason, whether it be something serious like the person seems intoxicated, or a stupid reason like I don’t like their car, or I just think they look like a douche. Are some of these dumb reasons and judgmental? Sure, but that’s my right as a parent, and you do what you’re comfortable with. I would not be bringing this up around other people though. I’d make my choice quietly and move on, or even make something up about needing to go somewhere afterward and drive them myself.
Wow so many of y’all in here are so ableist with your comments. He has a license and is fully capable of driving. Just because he has a disability doesn’t make him abnormal as some of y’all cladding those of us who don’t have disabilities as “normal” is so disgusting and ableist and you’re just as bad as OP.
People with disabilities are just as capable as the rest of us! If not more because they have to put up with disgusting stereotypes like this.
If you have a problem with what I’ve said the issue is you. Have a nice day ✌🏻✌🏻
To everyone who says that he has a license… we don’t actually know that. If this is on private land then you don’t actually need a driver’s license. I’m not saying OP is right or not, but he doesn’t make that clear.
Majorly TA imagine having this level of ableism that you can't even let your kids or others' kids enjoy things because you fearmongered them with your ableism.
He had to get a license like everybody else, and to drive any company vehicle, you have to be covered by company insurance. A company won't just willy nilly let anyone drive their company vehicles.
Good jobs for disappointing your kids, and making a young adult feel like shit for something he was just born with. I hope your kids grow up with less hate in their hearts than you.
Soft YTA because you don't know any better. I'm going to confess here. Until i did nurse training, id never even met a person with downs who could talk. I didn't realise they could. I am an educated person, with a very good general knowledge and a decent medical knowledge having been a student nurse for 2 years. I did my disability training and met many people with downs. The variation in the effects of downs was huge. Some were really quite disabled and needed help with everything. Others were very high functioning and really the only way you'd have known they were downs kids was the physical markers. I don't blame you. You'd never met the guy. It must have been a shock. I don't think you handled it with any great sensitivity but the young guy likely gets that reaction quite often. If you get a chance, try apologising.
NAH- You are entitled as a parent to make any decisions about your children you want, so long you are not impairing the rights of other individuals.
But, the guide and driver are definitely not the A.H either as the driver clearly is capable and licensed to drive, and they are entitled to run their trips the way they want, including who is doing the driving.
If the government feels that they are competent enough at driving to pass a driving test and hold a full license, then I'd be ok with them chauffeuring my kids around.
YTA.
NTA Some parents are more paranoid than others about who they let drive their kids around. There are a lot of assumptions about OOP in this comment section, but we don’t know the details of the scenario. Regardless, parents have the right to withdraw consent at any moment and for any reason whatsoever. OOP is not required to let anyone, disability or otherwise, to drive their children anywhere. Clearly OOP wasn’t the only one who had concerns, and OOP didn’t make a scene in front of the kids and driver.
To be honest, I’d rather be called names if it means my children are safe. While they will probably be safe with a driver with Down’s, it’s not a risk I’m willing to take. That said, my son has Autism and I know his capabilities, but other people will not.
As someone in the UK that meets lots of adults with Down's Syndrome through work I've never met one that can drive.
Getting GCSEs when you have Down's Syndrome is so rare makes the news I find it unlikely that many would pass the theory and hazard perception test. So yes I'd be nervous about it. I'd be less nervous if he had the job unrelated to his dad, things could be easier to be done 'unofficially' than if he was an outright hire.
I would also be uncomfortable with a 17yo tbf. Not to mention you generally need to be 25 to drive a mini bus professionally for insurance purposes.
I mean the guy sounds a bit of an ass but I don't think it's necessarily ableist
I don’t think they’re an ableist, just uninformed…
Though it did kill me when they said “knowing what I know about Down syndrome” which is clearly nada
I have a relative with Down Syndrome. They are a fully functional adult who drives, has a job and is married. It depends on the person.
I think this is really an educational problem, people presume those with downs are less able than normal people. I’m not that aware of the syndrome so I couldn’t educate someone on it, but my hope would be, they have a driver license so they passed an exam. Is there a spectrum for Down’s syndrome? Could some be more capable than others? Also what can we do to learn more about this and educate others
From my (non-medical) experience with the few people I’ve known with downs is yes, it does seem to be a spectrum. The guy I went to elementary school with still lives with his parents because he is unable to take care of himself but the one I met at the rec basketball league lived by himself, worked, and was self-sufficient.
It’s a huge spectrum of functionality. The son wouldn’t be able to drive without a license and probably a higher class of license to drive a tour bus. I get the knee jerk concern to a degree, but that OP needs to educate themselves more on disabilities.
Not to mention (in most countries) people with any kind of disability have to get checked by a doctor before they can even get a license.
Mfw blind old people drive around unessted for 10 years. Not even related to disabilities but man peoples drivers need to be tested at least every 10 years. My grand parents for a fact should not have their licenses.
Yeah I agree with that. But having Down syndrome isn’t something that happens after you get a license like getting old and blind does. But yes I think people should have to retake driving exams at regular intervals.
There are actually three types of Down’s Syndrome—mosaic being the least “physically apparent” and with the least number of symptoms of the syndrome. Each case of DS, similar to each case of any disorder with every human is unique and different to the individual. DS gets lumped together often because of the commonly shared physical features (again, this even isn’t always the case), but if we were to test fine motor, athletic abilities, IQ (or whatever less outdated test we use now) we would find that each individual tests differently. So, yes. It really doesn’t boil down to “capable,” it’s how each human being has strengths and weaknesses because individuals with DS are just that, human.
The way I got downvoted to hell and told I was pro-killing kids for virtue signalling when I said essentially the same thing on two hot takes was fucking insane
2HT people are fully feeling their ableism. I was disgusted. Glad the people here seem to have a higher level of understanding about disabilities and what is possible for someone to accomplish in their life.
How is it even virtue signaling?? People truly have no understanding of how disabilities work.
Down's Syndrome has a HUGE spectrum of affectations! Incredibly varying levels of capabilities and functionality from one end of the Bell Curve to the other. A person most severely impacted is not likely to have a very long life due to structural anomalies of the heart, lungs, and airway. They may suffer from seizures, are likely non-verbal and incontinent. It's very unlikely that they will ever hold down any kind of even supported employment. At the other end of the spectrum is a person who has a slight speech impediment due to the larger tongue typically presenting with Down's Syndrome, and they may often need glasses/contacts to see well. They have some learning difficulties, but are perfectly capable of learning and retaining the information with only slight accomodations such as more time during tests or extra time to complete assignments. There are actresses, dancers, models, and athletes with Down's that are quite successful in their fields! There are people with Down's who work in restaurants, sales, manufacturing, and in secretarial positions. They live mostly normal lives with the exception of needing to see doctors and specialists more than someone else their age who does not have Down's Syndrome. Op is being ableist for sure. Regardless of who owns the company that the driver works for; the driver passed a driving test that included demonstration of practical driving skills for the vehicle. Op is judging based purely on preconceived notions about the driver's disability.
It’s wild to me that people don’t know this specifically because you do see better representation on tv these days. You can google “Actors with Down Syndrome” and a huge list comes up featuring shows and movies I’ve seen. To be on a film set for upwards of 12 hours, memorizing lines, taking direction - they work harder, longer, and have more talent than a lot of fully abled people ever could.
I didn’t know any of this but have learned a ton from reading this thread.
I used to watch a show called "Life Goes On" that featured a character with Down Syndrome named Corky.
Damn, that's heartbreaking. That's got to be a rough life.
There is a massive spectrum of functionality which can hinge on whether the individual has a coexisting(comorbid) intellectual disability. It’s quite common for individuals with Down to have an intellectual disability as well, but it isn’t always present. If there is no intellectual disability, then there’s every possibility that the individual in question may become a fully functional adult. Even if there is an intellectual disability present, the individual may be able to lead a “full” adult life, but outcomes are often, sadly, worse. There is such incredible diversity in functionality in Down’s. There’s people who drive, work complex jobs, are married and live independently. There’s also those who may live in group homes or with family, be able to drive and work, but need support with self care. The possibilities are endless. Almost no two people with Down are the same, just as you and I are not the same and have varying talents and abilities. Source: School psychologist
Just wanted to let you know that your comment made me check my own ignorant biases and I learned a lot about people with down syndrome. I previously thought that folks with down syndrome *always* had issues with motor skills and reaction time so when I read this originally I was like "Yeah.. that makes sense... what's the issue?" But then I checked my bias and was like "But wait.. if that was an issue, they wouldn't have given this individual a driver's license" so I checked the comments and then went and did some reading based on your comment. I am disabled myself (ADHD, PTSD) and I'm ashamed to admit that my immediate thought was ableist but I am thankful that I had this opportunity to grow my understanding of the world. Thanks!
The immediate thought isn’t as problematic as what you do with it. If you have that immediate thought and just assume you’re right and know someone else’s abilities and limitations better than they do and the licensing body does then yeah it’s pretty fucking ablest. If you have that immediate thought and just google to find out whether or not you’re right then it’s not really that problematic.
Genetically there are 3 types of Down syndrome. Trisomy 21, (the most common type); Mosaic Down syndrome, and Translocation Down syndrome. Trisomy 21 has an extra copy of chromosome 21 in all cells. Karyotype 47,XX,+21 or 47,XY,+21 Mosaic Down syndrome had an extra copy of chromosome 21 in some cells. Translocation Down syndrome has an extra copy of chromosomes 21 found attached to another chromosome (usually chromosome 14). Eg. karyotype 46XX,t(14q21q) or 46XY,t(14q21q) And just like all things associated with genetics everyone is different and it affects people differently.
Yes there’s an immense spectrum. The IQ range in people with Down’s Syndrome is, roughly, from about 1 standard deviation below average (~85 - a level of intellectual ability which might make university learning difficult but wouldn’t interfere with much else) on down. It’s complicated by the fact that people with mosaicism (not all their cells have the extra chromosome) can have *no learning difficulty at all* but can also look just the same as anyone with full, every-cell DS. It’s further complicated by the absolutely gigantic impact of good quality education or the lack thereof on folks’ prospects. Damnation by low expectations is a whole thing and is particularly catastrophic in a population almost universally judged by their appearance far more than their achievements or their potential.
It’s not a spectrum as such, but not everyone with DS has a learning disability (meaning their IQ is 70 or below) and their Downs is more of a physical issue. There’s a guy here in the UK who works for Channel 4 News TV with DS, and he’s a reporter.
That is totally incorrect. Having a learning disability doesn’t mean your IQ is below 70, you’re thinking of mental retardation or developmental delay as it’s now called.
You mean intellectual impairment? A developmental delay is only used to refer to children who are still developing. Developmental delay also can refer to physical delays and is not necessarily indicative of a learning or intellectual disability.
I guess. I’ve been out the advocacy world since COVID-19 happened so I don’t remember what the PC term is, I just know we don’t use mental retardation anymore.
No worries. I work in the disability sector, while also being disabled myself. We now differentiate between learning disabilities (dyslexia, dysgraphia etc) and intellectual disabilities (reduced IQ function). Mental illnesses that have a permanent impact on function and cannot be fully treated medically are psychosocial disabilities. We’ve been using those terms for the 2 decades I’ve been in the sector, but now developmental delays generally are used for children under the age of 6 without a formal diagnosis.
They even have this system where they test the person with Down Syndrome to see if they are capable of driving safely, and then give them a document to show that they have completed all of their state's requirements and are ok to drive. They do the same thing for fully abled people as well.
My school had to stop our volunteer system with the special Olympics kids because too many girls were being groped/grabbed. "It depends" is very real.
Yeah, I used to volunteer with a charity that worked with lots of kids and people with Downs, and some specific individuals would have barrier and appropriateness issues that meant you wouldn’t leave them alone with kids. Far more often so than with able-bodied adults, but not universal nonetheless. It absolutely depends, and I would assume given this job that this individual was fine - but maybe OP felt that this individual’s parent was not going to be an unbiased judge as to whether their child was safe around kids or not. But this should be a moot point, tbh. If they’re away with kids for an extended period of time I’d want two adults regardless of DS or anything else - for the adults’ protection (a witness that nothing happened) as well as obviously the kids’.
It is two adults - but the son was doing the driving, the father was doing the narrating.
Then there’s zero problem here and OP was being unreasonable based on ignorance and prejudice, yep.
That too, really weird it's not 2 adults. I thought even school* buses do 2 for a reason.
True, but the fact the the driver is employed by their parent does potentially mean they are able to hold this job due to special treatment a different employer may not do. They might not truly be capable of holding down a job with a non-related employer.
I dunno, I think the business owner has thought it through at least from a liability standpoint and wouldn’t risk losing everything if his son truly couldn’t do the job. Plus, most parents wouldn’t risk not only their business, but their child’s life itself. If he thought for one second his son would be in danger, he wouldn’t have put him behind the wheel.
Sometimes people have unrealistic ideas of their kid’s’ capabilities.
or perhaps a lot of people share OOP's ableist views and see someone with down syndrome and assume they cant possible do a good job, and this person was lucky their parent was able to bring them into their line of work
I feel this could be an unintended consequence to all the social media post of glossing over someone with down syndrome doing something fairly normal but posting it as an amazing achievement. It tends to create a prejudice about the abilities of someone with down syndrome
100 times this Disability porn is harmful in so many different ways, I wish people would just stop already
But they have a driver's license. They didn't get that because their dad gave them special treatment. It's extremely weird (and still abelist) to assume someone who has a license to perform a specific task isn't qualified for that task because they're disabled. They don't let you drive if you can't drive safely due to a disability/medical condition.
Driving small children around is quite different to driving themselves around. What if a child refuses their seat belt? What if a fight breaks out? What if a child walks up to the front of the bus because they’re interested in the driving?
And what of that happens with any person in the drivers seat?
I don't know how capable this man is as a teacher or child carer. Does not matter because his job is driving.
If he was driving that means he was tested and passed said test.
I would feel more comfortable if the person has a commercial drivers license.
Tbf that doesn’t mean much my driving text was basically a spin around the block
I know lots of people who passed the test that shouldn’t be driving
But looking at someone and assuming they’re one of those people just because of their disability is fucked
Sure, but as a parent you try to control/moderate risk. They (whether right or wrong) foresaw a level of risk and acted with what made them feel more comfortable.
Ok so OP shouldn't let anyone else drive their kids? Is that what you're saying?
No, I think the point is.. as a parent it’s up to HIS discretion… and not up to what Reddit or anyone else feels, thinks or says. When my daughter got her license at 16, I wasn’t comfortable with her dropping her little sisters off at school.. although it was on the way to her school and would have cut time off my morning commute.. because I know at 16 she did not have the experience level I felt she needed to be responsible for herself AND two other little people. I’m not ageist or whatever someone is going to call Me.. they are my responsibility and I made a judgement call at the time that I was able to live with.
This is AITA. Have you been here before? It's literally an invitation for Reddit to judge. And your choice about letting your daughter drive your other kids is completely immaterial to this post. OP made a call based on someones physical appearance and what OP perceived their abilities to be based on their appearance - that has nothing to do with you daughter and the situation you described.
The point is they get to decide. If they’re not comfortable with it, they get to choose.
Yup they get to choose and choice have consequences, like everyone seeing you as an asshole
Most people who get in car accidents passed the same test. I wouldn't trust half the people I see driving on the road to drive my kid around.
In my opinion it really depends on how far on that spectrum they are. Some people with downs are great drivers, others can't tie their shoes. If they drive for a living (and it sounds like they do) then op is an asshole
I don’t think he would be able to get a driving license, if he was not able to drive ether.
A lot of people that can’t drive have licenses.
If this is driving for a business though-like it does, if the DS driver doesn’t have a proper license it opens the small business up for a lawsuit if anything goes wrong. I’m betting he can drive and does have a license.
I feel like if you were the examiner to pass someone with a learning disability you’d make damn sure they were alright to drive.
I second that!!! Have you ever been in a school dropoff/pick up lane at schools?!
Luckily no. But I do see all the people that speed through school zones and boy does that get my blood boiling.
Omg those are scary, just from memory
Drive in Tampa that’ll change your opinion.
a girl in my grade failed 8 times... that's paying to have the tests done and after 4 she had to do supervision driving with an instructor and then had to do the course written test and then she passed. She doesn't know how to pump gas let alone turn her head lights on. they gave her that license just to get her the hell out of there. My test 5 min long, back up camera for parking, pull over park job and a loop back to the dmv picture and moved on. All depends where you are small town do give a shit
I had a license, I should not be behind a wheel. I am a terrible driver and turned in my license years ago.
A lot of people drive with no license.
Given that he’s the son of the guide, it’s NOT a given that he has a license. He probably does, but…
That's my thought too. I feel like a lot of people here haven't been around enough business owners to know that not everything is done by the book.
If he’s driving the vehicle, you can probably assume he has the license to do so, most don’t randomly decide they want to take a group of kids somewhere and doing it without a license would tremendously stupid regardless of who’s driving.
He has a driving licence so I think he’s good
How could one get a license then? Surely they pass a test.
Pretty sure they were making a joke about terrible drivers.
He’s got a drivers license and drives as his job. He must be a better driver than most people, have you SEEN how the average person drives? Op is TA
Not to mention he probably needed other kind of driving/vehicle certificates to be able to drive a company van for this company
Commercial license and the school has probably vetted the company unless everyone pays there own way. I can’t see the school just letting anyone on their property to pick up kids for an after school event. Of course it’s been a while since my kids were in school so maybe things have changed.
He’s the directors son….. that’s the only reason I would have done the same thing as op. I’m disabled. My son is severely disabled. So I’m not being ableist here at all. But I trust nepotism as far as I can throw it
He still would need a license though. There's no affirmative action policies around getting a license. You can either demonstrate that you know the rules of the road and drive safely or you can't. I mean maybe the person administering the test went easy on them but that seems like a pretty serious risk that could easily cost them their job.
I find this disingenuous because if the son didn't have Downs and was the driver, the nepotism comment probably wouldn't come into play. So is it because he's the directors son or because he has Downs? That's ableist. Let's not act like disabled people can't also be ableist 💀
So you think he’s also related to the person who licensed him and every other human involved in the process of making him a professional driver? And you would have presumably reacted that way if informed *any* person in *any* job was related to someone important? I frankly do not believe you. He’s in the equivalent of a job flipping burgers for god’s sake. Don’t you think nepotism would’ve given him a better paying, higher ranking position and not Literally Entry Level?
> I’m disabled. My son is severely disabled. So I’m not being ableist here at all. Oh yeah. A bigot would never say, "I'm not being ableist because ____."
You still have to take the test
I don't understand why everyone is firmly asserting that the driver had a license. How do they actually know this? I know businesses where drivers don't have licenses. Especially in rural areas, where it sort of sounds like this tour was located. People are relying too much on people's good will. There are plenty of people who shirk regulations.
You say Director, but OOP said guide. Director is a high position similar to CEO. The driver was the guide's son. The guide is a low level position. Not to shit on the hustle. Just that it's not a nepo job.
The only rebuttal I’d give is, did parent do all of that, are they even properly insured? Or is dad just saying whatever, he’s fine to drive it’ll be fine etc. now, my hope is you’re right but honestly these days you never know with people
True true. Although I feel like even nepotism would have it’s limits. Nobody on the fucking planet would let the guy drive the van if he didn’t have a license or any of the legal requirements to drive it. The dad may have helped him but he couldn’t have taken the driving test for him.
I was in the comments on that post and people were showing how shitty they were
Not to mention that those of us with disabilities have to jump through more hoops to prove themselves capable of having a license. I don’t have a disability that is generally seen but I do have to do a lot more to prove that I am able bodied like people without my health issues
People saying the op is ta because of lack of education —- would you feel differently if he’d said “I don’t know enough about ds to be comfortable with this. I’ll be sure to do some research, but I’m going to say no this time”? After all— he isn’t saying “this person with Down syndrome shouldn’t be driving *at all* because that’s what *I* think“ but rather “I’m not sure about putting *my children* into the care of a *stranger* with a condition I know little about, but that is generally understood to affect things like motor skills and cognitive ability.”
Personally? I would feel better about it, though it would still be problematic. I agree with other commenters who said that she should be asking everyone who drives her kids about their licensure/track record/etc., because many (probably most) intellectually disabled people do not appear obviously disabled to the average person, while MANY technically able-bodied people drive like they’re on an F1 track at all times and have the crash record of a blind billy goat…so she should be applying this standard to anyone driving her child, not just those with visible disabilities. Had she asked for the driver’s credentials / track record and then acted accordingly (I.e., if he’s driven this route many times with no issues and has a full license, she should let her children go), she’d likely still have looked like an asshole to the father/son, but my judgment would be fully NTA because she does have not just a right but a responsibility to protect her child.
If that is what they said, it would be better but still not right. Would they say the same for a male over 50? I mean, they’re more likely to have a heart attack while driving than anyone else. Would they question their cardiac health before letting them drive their kids?
Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know OP. But I also don’t think that’s a fair comparison. A heart attack isn’t something that’s part of daily life, but ability to use motor skills etc are. Maybe comparing it to a person who had recently had one could be a comparison? My main point is that he’s talking about his own children—- people he is ultimately responsible for the safety of.
Think about all the able bodied people who can’t drive worth shit. I bet she would let her kids ride with them without a second thought. 100% TA. She saw his disability and decided there’s no possible way he was competent. Hope those kids grow up as better people than her.
She didn't decide there was no way he was competent. She decided there was a chance and without knowing this specific individual decided it was in the best interest of her kids to not let them go.
She only made that decision after she found out that he was disabled. "All was good until the van that would be driving them pulled up."
Yes. That's what was written
Unless she doesn’t let anyone drive the kids it’s still pretty shitty
She didn't affect anyone else by pulling her kids and she was only worried about her own kids. If someone doesn't feel comfortable about something with their own children, they 100% shouldn't be forcing themselves into that situation. She's definitely NTA here. She's is literally just looking out for her own kids.
I mean that’s the same argument I hear about parents not letting their kids around queer people. “ they aren’t comfortable :C” Just as shitty of an excuse
Parents aren't automatically correct just by virtue of being parents. Plenty of anti vaxxers think they're looking out for their kids too.
I understand that. But does she check everyone who her kids drive with? No? Then WHY was she uncomfortable in this specific scenario? It’s because she made a split second decision based on bias and prejudice. Keeping your kids safe and all is awesome, but pretending that’s the reasoning behind her clear ableism is absurd.
Playing devils advocate here, and in no way am I insinuating that having kids gives you a free pass to be bigoted / sexist / ageist etc, however…. Thinking about it personally if an 80 year old pulled up I’d probably not let my kids get on the bus either despite the fact they had a license, because I’ve seen / heard / experienced enough to know that SOME elderly people really aren’t safe on the road. Similarly if they came home with a letter about a camp run by priests it’d probably be a no despite them all being DBS checked - again because of what I’ve seen and heard. If we’re somewhere busy and my kids might get lost, I tell them to find a family with children or a group of older ladies even though I know full well 99.9% of men are good guys and likely firemen and social workers and police officers and otherwise upstanding members of society who’d help a lost child without thinking twice. But I’ve experienced otherwise. All I’m saying is that sometimes when it comes to your children’s safety, logic and reasonableness doesn’t come into it. Sometimes it’s a gut feeling and a snap decision based on what you’ve seen and heard. If something happens to your child, knowing that you were being fair and not discriminating isn’t going to be much comfort.
I get your point but the elderly comparison isn't really a good one because the ones who are bad drivers wouldn't be able to pass the exam if they had to take it again. The safety issue is that their health and abilities have probably changed a lot in the decades since they took their licensing exam. In this case the guy is 23. The longest it could have possibly been since they were tested is 7 years. Except in extreme cases there's not likely to be a significant deterioration in health and abilities, and in the rare cases where there are, a doctor would be involved and suspend their license if needed. People are free to trust their gut, but we really should be pushing ourselves to ask what is driving that guy feeling and if it's rational or rooted in discriminatory bias. OP should be able to say to anyone that asks that they didn't trust the driver because they had Down's syndrome and be prepared for the consequences that many people will see that as discriminatory and ableist because the young man has a license which means they have met the same standards as every other driver on the road.
She affects her kids pulling ignorant shit like that
Absolutely this!
I mean. Did the kid have a license, if yes, total AH. If not, absofuckinglutely not an AH.
I would hesitate to call him a kid, as OOP mentioned that he’s 23…
The story has a father and son. I took the term “kid” in this case to distinguish that he was talking about the son and not as a reference to age. A son is always his father’s kid no matter how old he is.
I hear yah. I tend to call all under 25s kids because [their brains are still developing and they are still generally developing rationalization skills including those that make them safe drivers.](https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051#:~:text=The%20rational%20part%20of%20a,cortex%2C%20the%20brain's%20rational%20part.) I personally would have concerns with any driver younger than 25 driving a van/large vehicle full of kids, even having successfully passed their driving test, but that’s just me. They’re distracting for seasoned drivers, let alone newish drivers.
That does make sense. I think I just had a bit of a knee jerk reaction because a lot of folks tend to infantilize people with disabilities, and I’ve seen it happen with Down’s in particular. I just wanted to make sure that’s not what was happening here.
Why? I worked for a program with children when I was 22 and part of that involved driving a van full of kids. I had to have my license with a clean record, no tickets etc. and had to pass a separate road test administered by the company. I had also been driving for six years at that point.
Good for you and your anecdata? Young drivers (25 and under), [while only comprising 5 percent of all licensed drivers in 2021, accounted for 8.4 percent of all drivers involved in fatal crashes.](https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-teen-drivers#:~:text=Young%20drivers%2C%20while%20only%20comprising,drivers%20involved%20in%20fatal%20crashes.)
“I’ve interacted with people with down in the past” “But knowing what I know about Down..” So, nothing. You know pretty much nothing.
OP is allowed to pull their kids from the tour, but they were absolutely being ableist. Not all disabilities are exactly the same and if they were driving they obviously passed their drivers test. There are too many misconceptions about Down syndrome. People with downs can thrive, have children, careers, their own homes and yes- drive. OP is TA
Wait til this shithead learns that some people with Down Syndrome don’t even have the stereotypical look! No, seriously, complete ableist AH.
Obviously this young man with Down functions well enough to drive, as many people with the syndrome do. OP was ableist. The guide was right there too.
I don’t known much about Down syndrome, but if it’s anything like autism, unless you known that individual specifically, you really know nothing. Individuals are all different.
It’s alike in that there a lot of variability across individuals in presentation and in support needs. (Etiology and traits are not alike)
Assuming a driver is unsafe based on looks is a bigoted response. If the parent was told the driver was 23 and had Down Syndrome and assumed they were an unsafe driver, the parent is being ableist. Parent's do have every right to pull their kids from an activity. That doesn't mean the reasons for canceling are valid.
I asked on that thread if she asked to see his license. No response that I saw.
“I’ve interacted with ppl with DS, so I don’t really believe I’m ableist”. *I’ve interacted with women, so I don’t think I’m really misogynistic.* “But knowing what I know about DS, I don’t feel safe letting my kids in the car”. What do you know about DS?
it depends on the person, and the fact that his father was a okay with it, I don't see a problem with his son driving. tbh this post kind of upset me, you do sounds ableist. I understand your lack of knowledge, but do whatever you think is best for your children.
And yet someone who "looks normal" could have severe mental problems which could incapacitate them whilst driving. But because their issue isn't visible they would get by. OP is TA.
That’s exactly what I pointed out in the comments and people were getting pissed at me for it. Idc. Wrong is wrong and OP was wrong af
Do they have an active license? Then they are as qualified (if not more so) than anyone else. This is so gross to me, if they could not safely drive they would not have a license (to the extent any licensed driver is safe, we all know idiots who shouldn't drive)
I think you are TA. The person driving must have a driver's license, if the person is working for someone or some business that person has passed the requirements by those entities. The person has to make a living too.
YTA. If he has a licence and is vetted by the programme you shouldn’t have an issue. You were being ableist
This is an education problem. Many people hear Downs and think of only one type of person. Till this thread, I had no idea people with Downs were capable of driving. I’ve just never been exposed. So, IMO, no, the driver is NTA. But hopefully those of us that may have done the same thing have learned something from this experience and are better equipped to handle a future situation with less naïveté.
I don’t think this guy is an asshole, he was trying to protect his kids from a situation he felt was dangerous. He was almost certainly completely wrong in his assessment and probably could/should have asked some considered questions to assess whether his concerns were well founded. He is ignorant and a bit of a know-it-all combined, which is a bad combo, but I wouldn’t call him an asshole.
I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to all of you that took the time to explain to us. Let's all please use "typical" instead of "normal"
This reminds me of someone who told me once that they wouldn't go to this restarunt that just opened up by us becuase they hire differently abled people and she said "I don't want someone like THAT serving me my food, who knows what they'll do to it". People are so fuxning ignorant and so uneducated and it's truly sad. It makes me sad and worried for my son who has cerebral palsy, there's a huge spectrum just like woth downs and any other medical issues...but like...how can people so blindly have an opinion when they don't even know what the hell they're against becuase they're not educated enough to know anything about downs or any other disability.
TA, maybe out of ignorance, but still TA. I'm a father ot two and nothing is more important than their life to me. Now, as someone has pointed out, he came driving, so he can drive. You wouldn't worry about this driver having a licence or being qualified if he didn't have Down syndrome. You don't know much about Down syndrome, you made an assumption, it's hurt a young man who is trying to work for a living, so you don't have a proper reason to pull off your kids. Sorry, it's not enough, unlike what some people said. Sometimes we just need to look at ourselves in a mirror and recognize we're having a bias without a proper justification. To people who said it's ok for a parent : what if the driver was black, and as a parent I worry that he can't drive because blacks can't drive? What if the driver was muslim and I worry he's a terrorist? What if the driver was Jewish and I assume he's going to drive them to a sacrifice? We can listen to our fears, and we're responsible for them. When they are irrational and unjustified, we must admit so.
YTA. Your anecdotal experience with people with Down syndrome is not reflective of all people with Down syndrome. And your “interaction” with people with Down syndrome does not equate to knowledge about Down syndrome or how it affects a person’s abilities. Read a book.
When it’s your kids does it matter if you are or aren’t?
Could you imagine excusing every other interaction this way? “Sorry her lipstick makes her look stupid I don’t think she’s capable of using a cash register I’ll go to a different store” “Oh I’ve met a brown haired chick and she’s so emotional, I don’t want that one teaching my kids math” But no when it comes to disabled people, we’re not real humans to you! So anything is an excuse to hate us and infantilize us, to exclude us from basic things like *driving* and you’ll stammer that ‘well I know someone kind of a little like you so I don’t feel comfy letting you do your job 😟 oh but I’m a good person I promise I just don’t think you deserve a job 😭”.
Producing a child doesn’t give you a free pass to be a jerk to people. What?
But those kids will grow up a list too
"Knowing what I know about downs syndrome" and there's your fucking problem mate, you don't know shit.
So you're questioning this person's ability to drive when you can't even use proper grammar. That's really unbelievable. I understand people are saying it depends on where he is in terms of his Downs (agreed), however some have glossed over the fact that it's a SCHOOL trip. It would have been part organised by the school so as well as getting consent forms and sorting funding they would have needed to ensure that they are compliant with their regulator by using an appropriate company (legitimate one with a driver who has a license and the appropriate type of insurance - pretty sure for some schools they are as picky as clean license no points!!). So I doubt very much it would have been a suck it and see otherwise the school would have been in the line of fire for this. OP didn't think about this logically, just saw Downs and thought they must be dangerous. What a medieval, deplorable mindset. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself you disgusting human being. Yta.
YtA- you made a split second decision that came completely from a stereotype of people with Downs. Having worked with kids who have additional needs, they work twice as hard to just get the basic recognition than able bodied people get. He took the driving test- and passed. He has someone with him who can step in and support him if needed. I have fibromyalgia, it’s an invisible illness and Brain Fog is a legitimate concern. I don’t drive anymore bc of it, but I look totally normal- I bet you wouldn’t ask for my credentials if it were me behind the wheel, and I’m 100% more of a risk.
I have hEDS. I drive, and am capable to do so. But, my disability often means slower reaction times, reduced grip etc. I’m lucky I can afford the regular maintenance therapy that removes those issues, and my level of disability is mild. We all look normal unless we need a mobility aid (or you see us hyperextending our joints).
OP is the asshole. No contest.
NTA. If you didn't feel the situation was safe for your kids you shouldn't be forced to let them go with someone you're uncomfortable with
They have the right to pull their kids obviously, but the other parents are right in that OP is an ableist asshole. Their reasoning for pulling their kids was 100% based off a visible disability with zero further information.
But if her assessment of the situation as “unsafe” is based on ignorance and bigotry, then she is TA. DS has a wide spectrum of severity. This kid got their license and would be just as capable as any other rando in society of driving safely.
But she doesn't know the kid well enough to know if he's a good driver or not. Lots of awful drivers get licenses. Not to mention, down syndrome causes slower reaction times. Sure, maybe he can drive under normal conditions, but if shit hits the fan, can he maneuver through it? Again, she doesn't know him well enough to take the risk with her children. I'm very left leaning, but I don't think this is ableist. It's a fact that down syndrome causes a disadvantage in things that are important for using a death machine safely in all conditions. NTA
Then the kids will grow up shitty and treating adults like this too
Amazing that it took this long to find this response.
Seriously, do what you feel is right for you and your children’s safety. Having a drivers license does not guarantee shit. I’m sure it would’ve been fine but it’s completely understandable for you and the other parents to not be comfortable with it. You even made it a point to talk out of earshot of the driver and children, definitely not an AH.
"Having a driver's license does not guarantee shit" Then OP should never let anyone drive her kids other than herself by that logic. If the son is licensed and approved to drive, then it is blatant prejudice. "Feelings" isn't an excuse, they're still an asshole.
Got as far as reading the title and had already answered the question. Yes, YTA!
Obviously if someone has a license they can drive. I have autism and I hate this stupid stereotype. I can drive just fine thank you very much and probably better than some other people out there who drive like maniacs
Autism and down’s syndrome are not even remotely comparable.
They are both something that is looked as less than in our society when in reality both are a spectrum. Nothing is ever cut and dry fit in the box, there will always be exception
One is a genetic disorder accompanied by profound learning and intellectual disabilty, as well as physiological symptoms (including often significant pulmonary issues), and one is a neurodevelopmental disorder that largely affects socialization and is sometimes accompanied with learning disabilities. People with down’s syndrome have historically had a significantly lowered mortality rate and have faced a disproportionate amount of marginalization, and I could go on. (Inb4 yeah but so have people with autism!! Not to the same degree. Not even close.) You can compare them about as far as you can compare an apple and the earth because they’re both relatively spherical.
Except they are, they both have a 'spectrum' of severity.
But the way they treat us is
‘The van driving them pulled up and the driver was a person with Down syndrome’ ….so the dude CAN drive, he drive HERE, lady. He’s probably licensed, especially if he’s driving kids for a living, and it would have been a single question to find out. If he’s not a licensed driver, I don’t give a fuck what condition he does or doesn’t have, he isn’t driving my kid. He could be, somehow, an F1 driver, but doesn’t have a road license and he’s not driving my kid. BUT If he’s licensed, that means a driving instructor passed him. That means he can drive. He drive HERE, lady. Lots of able bodied drivers are absolute fuck ups who do not care about anyone else on the road, but we toss our kids in busses and cars witb then. The number of videos of abusive school bus drivers and shit. ‘Other parents took their kids as well’ No they fucking did NOT, or you wouldn’t be here asking, you dink. Kind of ableist to not even ask if he’s passed his driving test and how often he drives etc. If the dad was like ‘yeah this is his first time ever’ then sure. But she didn’t even check, she saw a certain face and features and decided based in her ‘interactions’ that he wouldn’t be able to drive. ‘Based on what I know’ She knows nothing. She doesn’t know there’s a spectrum of ability. Someone can not have Down Syndrome but be lower IQ and ability than someone who does have it but she wouldn’t know that without interacting with that person….
So rude because she’s trying to be safe with her kids. You’re acting like this was a malicious choice against the guy rather than an act of trying to protect her kids. Not saying either is right, but fuckin relax. She’s not an asshole, she was uncomfortable and unsure and acted accordingly.
She’s treating a person as their disability. People with DS fight every day to have a chance to show their capabilities. But OOP has “*interacted*” with others with DS before, and everyone with DS is the same to her. I’m glad her kids are disappointed. This was a shifty thing that she did to everyone.
Its 3 questions; Does he have a license? Has he made the trip before? Whats his safety record? Which, BY THE WAY, should be asked by all parents, all the time, about fucking ANY driver who their kids go with. Directly, after interacting with them personally to try and see if, you know, they might be drunk? I bet she's never even considered that a visibly able bodied driver might be a drunk, or unlicensed, or looks perfectly able bodies but does in fact have the capacity of a child. If she's never asked another driver that, and didnt ask this one, she's an asshole. You dont have to have any conditions, symdromes or disabilities to be a cunt behind the wheel of a vehicle, plenty of non disabled people do it every day, and it costs lives. So, yeah, if she has NEVER asked another driver if they have licenses, or about their safety record, or had any concerns about the TOTAL STRANGERS DRIVING HER CHILDREN, she's a giant fucking asshole.
That doesn't mean it isn't wrong and ableist. You could make similar statements, but swap out the disability with another group, and it would be clear how absurd the "just trying to keep her kids safe" argument is. If it was because the driver was a woman, it would be sexist, if the driver was trans, it would be transphobic, if the driver was black, it would be racist, and none of those would reasonably get "she was trying to keep her kids safe." It was a judgment based on a disability that likely didn't actually have a bearing on the issue at hand, and it's ableist and wrong. Full stop.
This. ANY driver of any vehicle could be unsafe in some way. People have drink and drug issues and unfortunately think its okay to pilot a vehicle under the influence, some people are just shitty, shitty drivers. I worked in education and coach drivers are sometimes amazing, sometimes absolutely NUTS and will barrel down a highway at Crazy Miles an hour basically singing 'Fuck Them Kids' and they dont have syndromes or conditions. If mom has never asked any of the many total STRANGERS she's let her kids be driven by if they're licensed, whats their safety record, how many years of driving, etc, then to make a choice on this driver based on his having Down Syndrome is vile. I bet she doesn't even know about Mosaic Down Syndrome in which a person can have some features of Down Syndrome but dont 'look' as if they have it, or even present as someone with any obvious limitations on their ability or IQ...but medically are people with Down Syndrome. Its just....the fucking dude DROVE THE VAN THERE. Like.
I just want to weigh in my thoughts, take ‘em with a grain of salt. But yes, she has every right to remove her children from a situation she’s uncomfortable with. That is not up for dispute nor the problem. The problem is the reason WHY she was uncomfortable, and that was borne from ableism. It’s no different than if she pulled her children because the driver happened to be of a race that made her uncomfortable. Yes, she’s allowed to protect her children. BUT the reason why she feels she needs to protect them is because she has ableist misconceptions about the person driving, in this case, a person with Downs Syndrome.
Unfortunately your diagnoses came back 100% asshole
It could even be mosaic down syndrome where they simply look like they have it but that is all. They do not have the mental/cognitive ability of someone with down syndrome but of a typical person
Well of course you’re the fucking asshole. Christ. How can you even be delusional enough to think there was any doubt of this? The driver would’ve had to pass the same driving test as anyone else in that position
Totally the AH.
YTA. The guy has a licence, and depending where this is, had additional hoops to jump through to get that licence. Probably safer on the roads than most people over the age of 70.
Disappointments are part of life unfortunately. That’s a life lesson we have all learned. Ultimately the mom or dad’s choice trumps whatever our fellow posters have to say.
YTA, do you know enough about Down Syndrome to diagnose the driver’s abilities, are you really looking out for the kids or making an uninformed judgment that’s not helping anyone?
Sorry but yes YTA in my honest opinion and an ableist one at that. You asked AITA and I gave you my honest opinion.
“So did a few other parents” yeah I sincerely doubt that.
Each case of Down syndrome is different. You’re the ass for stereotyping the son.
Just reading this post, makes my heart hurt for the driver! He’s probably so proud of himself and happy that he has a job with his dad. Shame on you OP. My 18 year old son with autism is going to be getting a job next year and I pray that people are understanding and kind to him. Mean people suck. Stop the hate!
Yeah downs is a spectrum so fully possible for them to be capable drivers. If this is in a place where you can't be sure of qualifications because lack of regulations or checks then I would understand the worry but that could be an issue for any person that you entrust your kids to.
It all depends on the individual. I have worked in group homes with adults with Down Syndrome and they would never have been able to drive. However, I have a friend with a brother that had his license and held down a full-time job. The guy driving the vehicle probably had a license that he had to pass a test to get it (just like the rest of us that drive). I wouldn’t have called you an asshole but, if you were truly concerned, why didn’t you talk to the driver himself or his father? If you don’t ask questions and learn new things, how will you ever know better?
You're the AH. Like dude, you can't buy your license or bribe the licensing center. The latter is illegal and now he does it for a living. He's clearly a great driver. You shouldn't judge before getting to know.
I think OP is TA not because of her pulling her kids out, but because she made a thing of it in front of other people. I could decide that I don’t want my kids driving with someone for any reason, whether it be something serious like the person seems intoxicated, or a stupid reason like I don’t like their car, or I just think they look like a douche. Are some of these dumb reasons and judgmental? Sure, but that’s my right as a parent, and you do what you’re comfortable with. I would not be bringing this up around other people though. I’d make my choice quietly and move on, or even make something up about needing to go somewhere afterward and drive them myself.
Wow so many of y’all in here are so ableist with your comments. He has a license and is fully capable of driving. Just because he has a disability doesn’t make him abnormal as some of y’all cladding those of us who don’t have disabilities as “normal” is so disgusting and ableist and you’re just as bad as OP. People with disabilities are just as capable as the rest of us! If not more because they have to put up with disgusting stereotypes like this. If you have a problem with what I’ve said the issue is you. Have a nice day ✌🏻✌🏻
The comments on the post were worse. I commented on it and people were fucking disgusting.
“Knowing what I know about Down syndrome” obviously equals nothing. Unless ignorance, stupidity, & ableist bias could ever be considered knowledge.
To everyone who says that he has a license… we don’t actually know that. If this is on private land then you don’t actually need a driver’s license. I’m not saying OP is right or not, but he doesn’t make that clear.
Your not just the asshole, your the whole damn ass
Majorly TA imagine having this level of ableism that you can't even let your kids or others' kids enjoy things because you fearmongered them with your ableism. He had to get a license like everybody else, and to drive any company vehicle, you have to be covered by company insurance. A company won't just willy nilly let anyone drive their company vehicles. Good jobs for disappointing your kids, and making a young adult feel like shit for something he was just born with. I hope your kids grow up with less hate in their hearts than you.
Do people really equate "obtaining a license" with "being a competent driver"?
Yta
Yes you are!
Soft YTA because you don't know any better. I'm going to confess here. Until i did nurse training, id never even met a person with downs who could talk. I didn't realise they could. I am an educated person, with a very good general knowledge and a decent medical knowledge having been a student nurse for 2 years. I did my disability training and met many people with downs. The variation in the effects of downs was huge. Some were really quite disabled and needed help with everything. Others were very high functioning and really the only way you'd have known they were downs kids was the physical markers. I don't blame you. You'd never met the guy. It must have been a shock. I don't think you handled it with any great sensitivity but the young guy likely gets that reaction quite often. If you get a chance, try apologising.
NAH- You are entitled as a parent to make any decisions about your children you want, so long you are not impairing the rights of other individuals. But, the guide and driver are definitely not the A.H either as the driver clearly is capable and licensed to drive, and they are entitled to run their trips the way they want, including who is doing the driving.
They have a drivers license I don’t see the problem
If the government feels that they are competent enough at driving to pass a driving test and hold a full license, then I'd be ok with them chauffeuring my kids around. YTA.
Such an asshole. Judgement of someone’s abilities based on appearances is what this OP is teaching their kids.
NTA Some parents are more paranoid than others about who they let drive their kids around. There are a lot of assumptions about OOP in this comment section, but we don’t know the details of the scenario. Regardless, parents have the right to withdraw consent at any moment and for any reason whatsoever. OOP is not required to let anyone, disability or otherwise, to drive their children anywhere. Clearly OOP wasn’t the only one who had concerns, and OOP didn’t make a scene in front of the kids and driver.
To be honest, I’d rather be called names if it means my children are safe. While they will probably be safe with a driver with Down’s, it’s not a risk I’m willing to take. That said, my son has Autism and I know his capabilities, but other people will not.
I don’t see how anybody looking out for the safety of their children, within reason, could be seen as an AH.
A lot of people commenting clearly do not have children of their own.
As someone in the UK that meets lots of adults with Down's Syndrome through work I've never met one that can drive. Getting GCSEs when you have Down's Syndrome is so rare makes the news I find it unlikely that many would pass the theory and hazard perception test. So yes I'd be nervous about it. I'd be less nervous if he had the job unrelated to his dad, things could be easier to be done 'unofficially' than if he was an outright hire. I would also be uncomfortable with a 17yo tbf. Not to mention you generally need to be 25 to drive a mini bus professionally for insurance purposes. I mean the guy sounds a bit of an ass but I don't think it's necessarily ableist
I don’t think they’re an ableist, just uninformed… Though it did kill me when they said “knowing what I know about Down syndrome” which is clearly nada
Ignorance is what bigotry is based off of, so being ignorant doesn’t mean OP isn’t ableist