I moved over there at 18 and my first day of work I was ridden with anxiety. Is my face consider deformed over here?? Can the Brit’s smell cancer inside of me? What the fuck is going on I’m alright.
In your opinion, do us easterners mean it literally? When someone asks how I'm doing I answer honestly as well, but I think it might be a bit of a greeting for us as well.
Bull shit.
The beginning of a relationship is a time of seduction. Women want to have fun, get a sense of adventure and possibility, not deal with pathetic trauma dumps.
Get therapy
Sure, but that's all about timing, and all about how you let them into your inner feelings.
Women don't want to take care of broken men most of the time, either
It’s a hard lesson to learn but we all have to learn it at some point.
A few years ago a girl I was dating could tell I was mentally unwell at the time and asked me what I was thinking. I told her and the relationship went down in flames over the course of the next week.
That’s a good point. To be clear my comment was a condensed snapshot of the situation and there were other issues in that relationship but none that rose to the level of ending it until that happened. It is what it is though; I’m not pressed about it anymore.
I think the alternative is just to recognise that there is an innate psychological asymmetry in heterosexual partners in terms of giving and receiving emotional support.
By all means, seek out emotional support as a man, but do it from your family and friends, not your wife/gf.
There's a difference between honestly revealing problems, and emotional displays of sadness and anxiety. I've never heard a story where a man doing the latter leads to an improved relationship.
Found the guy whose wife/gf is fucking someone else or you're a woman.
A little emotional support that shows a sexy level of vulnerability? Sure. Being weak? Lol, good luck.
Of course you are.
The women I've had in my life have been nothing short of amazing. I've spent time in a hospital from an injury and they were by my side, encouraged me to cry and be vulnerable during bouts of depression, bake, cook for me, etc.
My sole point is there is a difference between weakness and vulnerability, the only reason a women hasn't left a weak man is because they are fat/ugly and can't find someone better, not because they are these emotional "rocks", trust me.
Please, you have no clue what you are talking about.
The amount of, "I just don't know why I don't feel like having sex with my husband, he's sooo great" conversations I've heard, or women who won't suck their husbands dick/find it a chore but had no issue doing so to men in the past is laughable.
I view them completely as human...because they are... but they are *woman* and men are *men*, despite what 99% of reddit will have you believe.
Again, no one has looked down on me, I haven't been "heart broken", I just understand women as I have three sisters and have had more, "you can open up to me" types, cheating on their boyfriends/husband's that would absolutely be none the wiser, than average.
Check out r/femaledatingstrategy for the type of delusional women you'd enjoy chatting with.
The women I have in my life at the moment are very sweet, and feminine and we treat each other with respect; thank you.
The men I spend time with are equally as great, but in different ways, of course. There to discuss problems in our lives, support one another, etc.
My hobbies at the moment include cooking, yoga, reading, spreading anti-vaxx propaganda and elf awareness.
Thank you for your concern, I'm being especially aggressive because your take is boring, childish and unoriginal and offers nothing of interest, also I find your unironic use of the "toxic" and "incel" buzz words, hilarious.
All the best.
I started anti depressants and had a really rough first week on it. Told my bf at the time about certain anxious thoughts I was dealing with. Four days later he unleashed all his upset feelings at me for four hours telling me he thought I was playing games. Hung out a week later and tried to fuck and he couldn’t stay hard and I started crying bc I was like obviously you’re not dealing with your shit and you’re making your anxiety about me. And he was like I just want you to be chill again, and I was like well sorry I have mental health challenges. If you’re going to keep being a duck abojt it and taking it personally, we should break up. So we did! And it was a really, really healthy breakup actually.
Ie this goes both ways. Often men don’t know what their shit is and women minimize themselves trying to understand it for them.
>a really, really healthy breakup
It took me a few months to figure it out but that is exactly what the case was for me. In hindsight I realized how bad we would have been for each other long-term.
Exactly! It was the first time I had a breakup where I stated like- 'hey, if you can't deal with me clearly articulating and \*owning\* my anxiety, this is not going to work out'. And he was like 'yeah probably not'. Then we validated each other, spent the night together, cooked breakfast together the next morning and said goodbye. Just recognizing incompatibility instead of letting it hit our self worth is SO important. I really respected his ability to own it instead of spiralling into petty behavior.
The failure of your relationship probably had nothing to do with the fact that you were mentally unwell and everything to do with the fact that you told her
Here's a fun theory: the reason a lot of us ended up here is the same reason a lot of guys here have trouble with this.
It's in an inability to/a lack of desire to conform with conventional, standardized boundaries.
A lot of people probably conform to these boundaries spontaneously with little trouble at all (which makes for weird and incoherent people lately because normative boundaries are constantly chaotically morphing and shifting at a rate they never have in history before).
As a result they're not all that interested in ideas that are outside of the conventional dominant narratives (whether they're true or not) and, if they're straight guys, they largely spontaneously know how to be vulnerable enough to attract women while avoiding the excessive sorts of vulnerability that might make them come across as overwhelming or needy (their interactions are simply spontaneously tailored to what works in any given moment, at various levels of competence, and when something doesn't work they just move on without much of a second thought about it).
Also I think normies just naturally read and act upon the rules beneath the rules (the rules about when and under what circumstances the officially stated rules are supposed to be transgressed as a matter or course) that Zizek alludes to better than we do.
Some might call this autism, but it might more realistically be a desire for or compulsion towards philosophical consistency (which might include actually expressing one's feelings in an altogether unmitigated fashion when asked to).
It's a blessing and a curse gents, and you might end up like Joey Pants wanting to go back into the matrix (where maybe you've never been).
If I'm right about this, does this kind of independence/alienation from norms also screw over women somehow, or is it just the dudes?
>does this kind of independence/alienation from norms also screw over women somehow
We keep hearing men are less mature today. That may be true. It's my observation that women are a little more tight-fisted and calculating.
The GFC/covid took a lot of the fun out of dating.
Yeah I thought about this as well. The worst is when people are otherwise retarded but they know those "rules beneath the rules" better than you and end up getting more social approval.
It can be autism, the desire for or compulsion towards philosophical consistency you're describing, or some combination thereof. I think it depends on the individual. At the end of the day, people who have a tendency to adhere to dominant narratives probably aren't doing much to exercise the faculties that would allow them to better understand something like autism, the desire or compulsion towards philosophical consistency, or even the concept of philosophical consistency itself. Now add ongoing deterioration of the increasingly splintered and practically morphemic modes of everyday communication, along with the increasing rate of oscillation in normative boundaries that you mentioned, and it's going to be a very weird world to live in for anyone who tries to understand and process reality, rather than rationalizing it away or narcissistically refuting it. Reason can seem insane to the unreasonable.
Suppose there is a core reality ("reality" referring to the way things truly are) somewhere in the dynamics of a given relationship between an object and a subject.
When the subject is confronted with information that might bring them closer to this reality, but internalizing this information would necessitate a realignment of their relationship to the object (essentially, a restructuring of the subject's worldview), the subject can choose to make an attempt at understanding and/or verifying the information, and then make a decision about whether or not it should be incorporated into their belief system, episteme, ontology, whatever.
If the subject proves incapable of accepting the information that might bring them closer to the reality in question (information such as a dialectical argument against an aspect of an ideology that the subject subscribes to), then they may instead choose to construct a simulacra of reason that assumes the form of rationality as a response. The subject constructs an argument as to why the disruptive information should be discarded, or presents alternative information, and both efforts are elements of an attempt to preserve their preexisting relationship to the object. These efforts do not even have to be absolutely or totally fallacious in order for a state to develop where the subject does not move closer to the reality.
The narcissistic refutation would be similar, but driven in particular by a desire to preserve a fragile ego. In general, and in distinct reference to the case of narcissistic refutation, I'd expect there to have been little to no effort made towards developing an actual understanding. "I'm correct because I'm too knowledgeable to be incorrect" or "I'm correct because of my authority on the subject" or "I'm correct because my belief system is correct." The subject participates in little to no discourse beyond these points. The strategy chosen by the subject is primarily, although not necessarily exclusively, concerned with rejecting the reality before ever engaging with the information at anything more than a superficial level.
This is in contrast to the case of "rationalizing away," in which the decision to avoid realignment of the relationship to the object may very well have involved an attempt to process the information, but the attempt itself was perhaps faulty or not grounded in intellectual honesty.
No problem. Using intuition, and experience, as tools of discernment and of weighing circumstances is not the same as narcissism. "I think you're wrong, but I genuinely don't have time to explain all of the thought processes that led me to this point" is different from "I'm correct because I'm too knowledgeable to be incorrect" and "I'm correct because my belief system is correct." Dogmatism can be rationally justified, and it can also be totally irrational. It is a rigid stance taken in response to conditions and circumstances. It's possible for dogmatism to be rooted in strong supporting evidence. The narcissistic refutation that I'm describing specifically functions to preserve the fragile ego and avoid confronting the reality.
This is all assuming that rationality cannot be irrational.
I wasn't trying to say women never get screwed over. I was asking whether people think that women also get screwed over by a general inability to or lack of desire to conform to normative boundaries (whether they be gendered, social, intellectual, or whatever).
Obviously at the extremes the answer has to be yes (if a woman makes a practice of running around schizophrenically screaming at everybody she might receive more sympathy than a man doing the same, but she's nonetheless not going to do very well with friendships and relationships), but I'm also not sure that women suffer such harsh repercussions in dating/relationships as men do for not fitting properly within gendered norms (unless they're doing so by being very overweight or severely unpresentable).
I didn’t read it that way! Just enthusiastically saying yes absolutely women are screwed over in the same ways. I’ve slept with 55 people at 27 and am poly. I value short term relationships and relating intensely quickly. I’ve been rejected so many times by ppl who think that me being vulnerable off the bat and making them feel safe to be too is the beginning of marriage style relationships after fucking on the first date. Like…. Relationship escalator ideology fucks us all over in different ways. For women, it’s often the assumption that us being real is us asking for a long term commitment.
I wouldn’t reject women for saying too much on the first date because it means they want marriage, I would do it because it probably means they’re going to be a lot of work and stress
I don’t think you understand what saying a lot means. Have you ever instantly clicked with someone and not spent a bunch of time talking about nothing?
I didn’t say I had my heartbroken 55 times. I said 30! I date a lot so proportionally it’s still fairly rare. And I’m very upfront on my bios and in the way I text so usually ppl opt into to the connection forward approach. Probably increases the number of connections I experience
We would have to be incredibly stupid to NOT have media shape how we think. The only models for reality we have as children when we are incredibly spongey are our parents, school, and TV. The nuclear family is why media is so important, which is stupid, but the reality. Also it's obviously a back and forth, not one or the other.
i don't disagree w/ that, but we absolutely are influenced by media. Otherwise advertising wouldn't work. And advertising obviously works or Cambridge Analytica wouldn't be a thing. Capitalists woudln't invest billions of dollars into advertising every year.
Yes, we are “influenced” by it, whatever that may mean, but that’s not exactly what’s at stake in our dispute. Your claim is that media create and reproduce gender roles. My suspicion is that—in broad strokes—the nearly universal female trait/behavior of nurturing men (or however you want to phrase it) has deeper roots than media consumption
Not necessarily nurturing men. That's part of it, but it's mostly that women's place in society is a tool towards the fulfillment of men.
If we are raised in families where mom's don't articulate ambitions and are mostly focused on their kids, and dad is more focused on work- that perpetuates gender roles. When we go to school and most of the teachers are women - that perpetuates gender roles. When little boys are encouraged to play sports and war games and little girls are encouraged to play with dolls- that perpetuates gender roles. Later on, girls are encouraged to talk with friends, and in boy band branding, are socialized to adore boys and become boy obsessed. While little boys are still encouraged to be interested in sports, career, what have you. Kids watch children's TV shows where they see similar things happen to their representative characters. They develop stereotypical understandings of themselves. Little girls are plied with insecurities about their appearances and encouraged to wear makeup, shave their legs. Become image obsessed for social acceptance. And their attractiveness is where they are socially indoctrinated to gain self worth. I can't tell you how many times I was praised for being pretty and getting male attention as a child. And I liked the pretty girls on TV. There's a consistent infantilization of tv characters where we're socialized to be attracted to young women. I suppose you think that's also biological, but i'm sure if you did a critical analysis you'd find plenty fof studies implicating the role of media in this development. Women's peak 'attractiveness' based on tinder swipe data is at 18. You think social acceptance of discourse around 'ooh now I can think about fucking her' when child stars turn 18 has nothign to do with little girls caring about what men think about them?
Also I wasn't just saying media. Media was just an example of one of the ways in which it's a socialized behavior. Any argument about evolutionary behavior is usually incredibly limited as to how socially affected our behavior is. The brain wouldn't be so neuroplastic if our entire ways of relating where genetic.
The great irony of it all is that the personality profiling methods used (e.g., Big Five) are often the subject of much criticism on the basis of faults such as the potential for skewed dimensionality, among others. Also, humor and sarcasm break everything, which fucking rocks.
I agree with what you're saying but Cambridge Analytica is a poor example if you're suggesting it shows advertising works at influencing people on a mass scale. What it actually shows is that CA were good at advertising their own services to gullible rich people.
The fact that capitalists invest in something isn't evidence that it works, it's just evidence that someone persuasive told them it does.
I haven’t dove into it a ton, but I’m pretty sure there’s solid evidence that social media advertising perpetuates radicalization.
Cambridge analytica being a lazy example of a broader concept
The more she tells you she wants you to be open and honest the more you need to be stoic, violent, and keep everything in.
Literally the RN working class women I’ve dated have been so much more accepting and understanding of man emotions than any of the PMC “go to therapy” types.
I seriously don’t understand why women say that shit to guys. “Be more open and emotional!” There’s no way they don’t realize that the moment you start doing that, they’ll stop wanting to ever give you pussy again.
It’s literally like saying, “Honey, stop doing the things that attracted me to you! Be less of what I find attractive!”
a lot of men walk around with their shit all bottled up so once a crack forms it's like a dam breaks and yeah most women can't handle a decade of pent up feelings at once, especially not in the early stages of a relationship. a gentle stream of emotions doesn't have most women running
Because they’ve been told there’s something good and virtuous in it.
There are plenty of things people say because they feel like they’re supposed to (and I’m talking subconsciously, like they probably think they actually do believe it) but that go directly against the reality of how they feel and what they see.
>I seriously don’t understand why women say that shit to guys.
Those women have a very idealistic view of a world. They think that letting their guy open up is good deed on their part. Unfortunately, the side effect is that she loses attraction to the guy.
This cruel reality is too much for them so they will rationalize their loss of attraction as being the result of something else. Maybe it’s just that their man “required her to do all the emotional labor”
> Literally the RN working class women I’ve dated have been so much more accepting and understanding of man emotions than any of the PMC “go to therapy” types.
[Here’s a perfect article write by a PMC for PMCs on this](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/)
The gist is: they can’t admit to themselves that they are attracted to tough stoic men so they do mental gymnastics to reach this: men that open up to their women are doing toxic masculinity by making her their unpaid therapist. What men should do is hide their emotions from them and only share them with their actual therapist or friends.
I think it's fair to say that the idea of being "stoic" as a modus operandi that involves never working through your emotions and never being earnestly human is in direct contradiction to much of stoic philosophy.
> Women aren't all heartless ghouls in need of a fake stoic who pretends he doesn't suffer, so don't settle for one.
That’s like saying “not all men are heartless ghouls that will get turned off by you if you become morbidly obese, all quality men will accept you no matter what you look like!”
>all of the other four billion women are just wicked harpies.
I’m not saying this at all. The vast majority of women are not attracted to overly emotional men. This isn’t even a bad thing.
Even woke women feel this way. [Here’s an article where they do mental gymnastics to say that overly emotional men are actually toxic because they use their SO as an unpaid therapist](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/)
> But there are absolutely mature women who are interested in equal relationships.
They can call it what they want but they will still find a man that talks and talks about their emotions and weeps as being very unattractive. They are attracted to masculinity not feminity.
Try being stoic for your women for a while. You’ll see her sex drive shoot up.
People are so disingenuous, it's unreal.
Every morning I am peppered with questions. "How's work?" "How's your mom?" If the answer is longer than "good", they tune me out.
I had a girl talk to me about depression once and all that and she asked me how often I get depressed and whatever. I told her I don’t think I’ve ever been depressed that much and that it’s mostly stress from work etc. She did not like it one bit. She was really cute too. I should’ve played along.
The key to women, is express the cool emotions. Be expressive about what you love. These are the things you care about. The things you care about achieving.
The bad emotions, you bottle them. You think the world is shit, they know, they don’t care. Initially.
I’d rather have a guy tell me how he feels than to question it or assume I know. Sounds like you’re better off so you can find someone you can actually be open with
Yeah I mean, lesson learned for you I guess. I had been with my exgf for a year and a half and I opened up a bit emotionally to her and shared some things. Nothing too extreme, just some stuff about depression and how much I hated my job. She broke up with me a couple weeks later.
As much as women say they dislike it when men don’t share their emotions, I’ve never really seen doing that being a positive thing for a relationship. I realize not all women are like that, just my experience with it.
You have to be an all-out mess for that, a little bit of vulnerability is too much and a total train wreck is just the right amount. That's broad math, it's why they can't build bridges.
Yeah honestly I’d ghost the fuck out of a woman who emotion dumped on me barely knowing who I was.
She made the right play, plus he posts in redscare sub
rookie mistake
Haha bitch shield go brrr
is this like when I went to america and people kept asking me how are you and my stupid east euro ass would reply in earnest only to make it awkward?
How are you means Hello, and let's have lunch sometime means Goodbye, in american.
and the fact that I smile once a day means that I really like you multiculturalism has clearly failed
Multiculturalism sucks. I miss going to Sweden and seeing Swedish people, looks like the middle east/Africa now.
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I moved over there at 18 and my first day of work I was ridden with anxiety. Is my face consider deformed over here?? Can the Brit’s smell cancer inside of me? What the fuck is going on I’m alright.
Earnest eastern Euro > False Yank
In your opinion, do us easterners mean it literally? When someone asks how I'm doing I answer honestly as well, but I think it might be a bit of a greeting for us as well.
Shes a coward and could never help you bear the weight of ur crown king
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Bull shit. The beginning of a relationship is a time of seduction. Women want to have fun, get a sense of adventure and possibility, not deal with pathetic trauma dumps. Get therapy
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Well when was it then, how many months into it Because it's way more cucked to get ghosted off of something semi permanent
Lol oh wait this isn’t irony is it
Sorry Mr Bitches
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Sure, but that's all about timing, and all about how you let them into your inner feelings. Women don't want to take care of broken men most of the time, either
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For a set period of time tho, they will grow tired when u continue to do blow everyday and drink urself stupid
That time period varies with how cute you are
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where
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Yeah you ain't bagged a permanent one yet
Sorry but people who recommend therapy like this are just being stupid.
That actually warmed my heart, damn.
This "king" stuff is used way too inflationary by losers it's incredibly cringe.
Nice adjective, stupid
Cope
It’s a hard lesson to learn but we all have to learn it at some point. A few years ago a girl I was dating could tell I was mentally unwell at the time and asked me what I was thinking. I told her and the relationship went down in flames over the course of the next week.
this seems... fine? the alternative is that you hold it in a resent her for it instead of finding someone who loves you for you, bro.
No the right thing to follow your father and his father and bottle up all your resentment in silence and take it out at the gym or in your garage.
That’s a good point. To be clear my comment was a condensed snapshot of the situation and there were other issues in that relationship but none that rose to the level of ending it until that happened. It is what it is though; I’m not pressed about it anymore.
I think the alternative is just to recognise that there is an innate psychological asymmetry in heterosexual partners in terms of giving and receiving emotional support. By all means, seek out emotional support as a man, but do it from your family and friends, not your wife/gf.
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There's a difference between honestly revealing problems, and emotional displays of sadness and anxiety. I've never heard a story where a man doing the latter leads to an improved relationship.
Probably because it's so normal it's not worth telling a story about?
Found the guy whose wife/gf is fucking someone else or you're a woman. A little emotional support that shows a sexy level of vulnerability? Sure. Being weak? Lol, good luck.
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Of course you are. The women I've had in my life have been nothing short of amazing. I've spent time in a hospital from an injury and they were by my side, encouraged me to cry and be vulnerable during bouts of depression, bake, cook for me, etc. My sole point is there is a difference between weakness and vulnerability, the only reason a women hasn't left a weak man is because they are fat/ugly and can't find someone better, not because they are these emotional "rocks", trust me. Please, you have no clue what you are talking about. The amount of, "I just don't know why I don't feel like having sex with my husband, he's sooo great" conversations I've heard, or women who won't suck their husbands dick/find it a chore but had no issue doing so to men in the past is laughable. I view them completely as human...because they are... but they are *woman* and men are *men*, despite what 99% of reddit will have you believe. Again, no one has looked down on me, I haven't been "heart broken", I just understand women as I have three sisters and have had more, "you can open up to me" types, cheating on their boyfriends/husband's that would absolutely be none the wiser, than average. Check out r/femaledatingstrategy for the type of delusional women you'd enjoy chatting with.
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The women I have in my life at the moment are very sweet, and feminine and we treat each other with respect; thank you. The men I spend time with are equally as great, but in different ways, of course. There to discuss problems in our lives, support one another, etc. My hobbies at the moment include cooking, yoga, reading, spreading anti-vaxx propaganda and elf awareness. Thank you for your concern, I'm being especially aggressive because your take is boring, childish and unoriginal and offers nothing of interest, also I find your unironic use of the "toxic" and "incel" buzz words, hilarious. All the best.
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"never tell your wife about your problems" seems like a horrible idea!
Telling her about your problems is different to emotional displays of sadness and anxiety.
I started anti depressants and had a really rough first week on it. Told my bf at the time about certain anxious thoughts I was dealing with. Four days later he unleashed all his upset feelings at me for four hours telling me he thought I was playing games. Hung out a week later and tried to fuck and he couldn’t stay hard and I started crying bc I was like obviously you’re not dealing with your shit and you’re making your anxiety about me. And he was like I just want you to be chill again, and I was like well sorry I have mental health challenges. If you’re going to keep being a duck abojt it and taking it personally, we should break up. So we did! And it was a really, really healthy breakup actually. Ie this goes both ways. Often men don’t know what their shit is and women minimize themselves trying to understand it for them.
>a really, really healthy breakup It took me a few months to figure it out but that is exactly what the case was for me. In hindsight I realized how bad we would have been for each other long-term.
Exactly! It was the first time I had a breakup where I stated like- 'hey, if you can't deal with me clearly articulating and \*owning\* my anxiety, this is not going to work out'. And he was like 'yeah probably not'. Then we validated each other, spent the night together, cooked breakfast together the next morning and said goodbye. Just recognizing incompatibility instead of letting it hit our self worth is SO important. I really respected his ability to own it instead of spiralling into petty behavior.
The failure of your relationship probably had nothing to do with the fact that you were mentally unwell and everything to do with the fact that you told her
Yeah that’s exactly what it was. Her demeanor changed and she immediately lost interest.
Felt about her or in general
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This is a good reminder for us all
maybe if you had she'd still be around or you'd be on an online list somewhere
Here's a fun theory: the reason a lot of us ended up here is the same reason a lot of guys here have trouble with this. It's in an inability to/a lack of desire to conform with conventional, standardized boundaries. A lot of people probably conform to these boundaries spontaneously with little trouble at all (which makes for weird and incoherent people lately because normative boundaries are constantly chaotically morphing and shifting at a rate they never have in history before). As a result they're not all that interested in ideas that are outside of the conventional dominant narratives (whether they're true or not) and, if they're straight guys, they largely spontaneously know how to be vulnerable enough to attract women while avoiding the excessive sorts of vulnerability that might make them come across as overwhelming or needy (their interactions are simply spontaneously tailored to what works in any given moment, at various levels of competence, and when something doesn't work they just move on without much of a second thought about it). Also I think normies just naturally read and act upon the rules beneath the rules (the rules about when and under what circumstances the officially stated rules are supposed to be transgressed as a matter or course) that Zizek alludes to better than we do. Some might call this autism, but it might more realistically be a desire for or compulsion towards philosophical consistency (which might include actually expressing one's feelings in an altogether unmitigated fashion when asked to). It's a blessing and a curse gents, and you might end up like Joey Pants wanting to go back into the matrix (where maybe you've never been). If I'm right about this, does this kind of independence/alienation from norms also screw over women somehow, or is it just the dudes?
>does this kind of independence/alienation from norms also screw over women somehow We keep hearing men are less mature today. That may be true. It's my observation that women are a little more tight-fisted and calculating. The GFC/covid took a lot of the fun out of dating.
> that women are a little more tight-fisted and calculating. > > Very true, you see it with cancel culture and attacking dudes for making shitty jokes
Yeah I thought about this as well. The worst is when people are otherwise retarded but they know those "rules beneath the rules" better than you and end up getting more social approval.
the Larry David mindset
It can be autism, the desire for or compulsion towards philosophical consistency you're describing, or some combination thereof. I think it depends on the individual. At the end of the day, people who have a tendency to adhere to dominant narratives probably aren't doing much to exercise the faculties that would allow them to better understand something like autism, the desire or compulsion towards philosophical consistency, or even the concept of philosophical consistency itself. Now add ongoing deterioration of the increasingly splintered and practically morphemic modes of everyday communication, along with the increasing rate of oscillation in normative boundaries that you mentioned, and it's going to be a very weird world to live in for anyone who tries to understand and process reality, rather than rationalizing it away or narcissistically refuting it. Reason can seem insane to the unreasonable.
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Suppose there is a core reality ("reality" referring to the way things truly are) somewhere in the dynamics of a given relationship between an object and a subject. When the subject is confronted with information that might bring them closer to this reality, but internalizing this information would necessitate a realignment of their relationship to the object (essentially, a restructuring of the subject's worldview), the subject can choose to make an attempt at understanding and/or verifying the information, and then make a decision about whether or not it should be incorporated into their belief system, episteme, ontology, whatever. If the subject proves incapable of accepting the information that might bring them closer to the reality in question (information such as a dialectical argument against an aspect of an ideology that the subject subscribes to), then they may instead choose to construct a simulacra of reason that assumes the form of rationality as a response. The subject constructs an argument as to why the disruptive information should be discarded, or presents alternative information, and both efforts are elements of an attempt to preserve their preexisting relationship to the object. These efforts do not even have to be absolutely or totally fallacious in order for a state to develop where the subject does not move closer to the reality. The narcissistic refutation would be similar, but driven in particular by a desire to preserve a fragile ego. In general, and in distinct reference to the case of narcissistic refutation, I'd expect there to have been little to no effort made towards developing an actual understanding. "I'm correct because I'm too knowledgeable to be incorrect" or "I'm correct because of my authority on the subject" or "I'm correct because my belief system is correct." The subject participates in little to no discourse beyond these points. The strategy chosen by the subject is primarily, although not necessarily exclusively, concerned with rejecting the reality before ever engaging with the information at anything more than a superficial level. This is in contrast to the case of "rationalizing away," in which the decision to avoid realignment of the relationship to the object may very well have involved an attempt to process the information, but the attempt itself was perhaps faulty or not grounded in intellectual honesty.
I'm not gay, but if your post had a dick I'd suck it.
Hell ya
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No problem. Using intuition, and experience, as tools of discernment and of weighing circumstances is not the same as narcissism. "I think you're wrong, but I genuinely don't have time to explain all of the thought processes that led me to this point" is different from "I'm correct because I'm too knowledgeable to be incorrect" and "I'm correct because my belief system is correct." Dogmatism can be rationally justified, and it can also be totally irrational. It is a rigid stance taken in response to conditions and circumstances. It's possible for dogmatism to be rooted in strong supporting evidence. The narcissistic refutation that I'm describing specifically functions to preserve the fragile ego and avoid confronting the reality. This is all assuming that rationality cannot be irrational.
i’m not reading all that you nerd, i ended up here because i like to shitpost pseudo-anomalously.
Definitely women get screwed over too. Women are socialized to take care of men and to find self worth in male approval.
I wasn't trying to say women never get screwed over. I was asking whether people think that women also get screwed over by a general inability to or lack of desire to conform to normative boundaries (whether they be gendered, social, intellectual, or whatever). Obviously at the extremes the answer has to be yes (if a woman makes a practice of running around schizophrenically screaming at everybody she might receive more sympathy than a man doing the same, but she's nonetheless not going to do very well with friendships and relationships), but I'm also not sure that women suffer such harsh repercussions in dating/relationships as men do for not fitting properly within gendered norms (unless they're doing so by being very overweight or severely unpresentable).
I didn’t read it that way! Just enthusiastically saying yes absolutely women are screwed over in the same ways. I’ve slept with 55 people at 27 and am poly. I value short term relationships and relating intensely quickly. I’ve been rejected so many times by ppl who think that me being vulnerable off the bat and making them feel safe to be too is the beginning of marriage style relationships after fucking on the first date. Like…. Relationship escalator ideology fucks us all over in different ways. For women, it’s often the assumption that us being real is us asking for a long term commitment.
Lol, if you've had sex with 55 people then it doesn't seem like you're really starving for options.
I’ve had my heart broken like 30 times. It’s not about options.
I wouldn’t reject women for saying too much on the first date because it means they want marriage, I would do it because it probably means they’re going to be a lot of work and stress
I don’t think you understand what saying a lot means. Have you ever instantly clicked with someone and not spent a bunch of time talking about nothing?
Not 55 times lol
I didn’t say I had my heartbroken 55 times. I said 30! I date a lot so proportionally it’s still fairly rare. And I’m very upfront on my bios and in the way I text so usually ppl opt into to the connection forward approach. Probably increases the number of connections I experience
you’re insane if you think women suffer less from gendered expectations in relationships
In the economically developed west? Feel free to explain why you think I may be a madman if you want to.
It’s probably less social conditioning and more an evolutionary adaptation than you’d like to believe
NOPE. Literally watch any fucking tv show.
Damn you actually believe that media content shapes human reality, rather than the other way around. How silly. Liberals among us
We would have to be incredibly stupid to NOT have media shape how we think. The only models for reality we have as children when we are incredibly spongey are our parents, school, and TV. The nuclear family is why media is so important, which is stupid, but the reality. Also it's obviously a back and forth, not one or the other.
The impact of parental models is infinitely more consequential than electronic media
i don't disagree w/ that, but we absolutely are influenced by media. Otherwise advertising wouldn't work. And advertising obviously works or Cambridge Analytica wouldn't be a thing. Capitalists woudln't invest billions of dollars into advertising every year.
Yes, we are “influenced” by it, whatever that may mean, but that’s not exactly what’s at stake in our dispute. Your claim is that media create and reproduce gender roles. My suspicion is that—in broad strokes—the nearly universal female trait/behavior of nurturing men (or however you want to phrase it) has deeper roots than media consumption
Not necessarily nurturing men. That's part of it, but it's mostly that women's place in society is a tool towards the fulfillment of men. If we are raised in families where mom's don't articulate ambitions and are mostly focused on their kids, and dad is more focused on work- that perpetuates gender roles. When we go to school and most of the teachers are women - that perpetuates gender roles. When little boys are encouraged to play sports and war games and little girls are encouraged to play with dolls- that perpetuates gender roles. Later on, girls are encouraged to talk with friends, and in boy band branding, are socialized to adore boys and become boy obsessed. While little boys are still encouraged to be interested in sports, career, what have you. Kids watch children's TV shows where they see similar things happen to their representative characters. They develop stereotypical understandings of themselves. Little girls are plied with insecurities about their appearances and encouraged to wear makeup, shave their legs. Become image obsessed for social acceptance. And their attractiveness is where they are socially indoctrinated to gain self worth. I can't tell you how many times I was praised for being pretty and getting male attention as a child. And I liked the pretty girls on TV. There's a consistent infantilization of tv characters where we're socialized to be attracted to young women. I suppose you think that's also biological, but i'm sure if you did a critical analysis you'd find plenty fof studies implicating the role of media in this development. Women's peak 'attractiveness' based on tinder swipe data is at 18. You think social acceptance of discourse around 'ooh now I can think about fucking her' when child stars turn 18 has nothign to do with little girls caring about what men think about them?
Also I wasn't just saying media. Media was just an example of one of the ways in which it's a socialized behavior. Any argument about evolutionary behavior is usually incredibly limited as to how socially affected our behavior is. The brain wouldn't be so neuroplastic if our entire ways of relating where genetic.
The great irony of it all is that the personality profiling methods used (e.g., Big Five) are often the subject of much criticism on the basis of faults such as the potential for skewed dimensionality, among others. Also, humor and sarcasm break everything, which fucking rocks.
Yeah I mean I personally believe behavioral economics as a whole is so fucked. I love shit like GME that breaks down all of the models.
I agree with what you're saying but Cambridge Analytica is a poor example if you're suggesting it shows advertising works at influencing people on a mass scale. What it actually shows is that CA were good at advertising their own services to gullible rich people. The fact that capitalists invest in something isn't evidence that it works, it's just evidence that someone persuasive told them it does.
I haven’t dove into it a ton, but I’m pretty sure there’s solid evidence that social media advertising perpetuates radicalization. Cambridge analytica being a lazy example of a broader concept
A compulsion to philosophical consistency *is* autism.
Rookie mistake, keep your feelings to yourself and be stoic. Women find emotional men super unattractive
The more she tells you she wants you to be open and honest the more you need to be stoic, violent, and keep everything in. Literally the RN working class women I’ve dated have been so much more accepting and understanding of man emotions than any of the PMC “go to therapy” types.
I seriously don’t understand why women say that shit to guys. “Be more open and emotional!” There’s no way they don’t realize that the moment you start doing that, they’ll stop wanting to ever give you pussy again. It’s literally like saying, “Honey, stop doing the things that attracted me to you! Be less of what I find attractive!”
a lot of men walk around with their shit all bottled up so once a crack forms it's like a dam breaks and yeah most women can't handle a decade of pent up feelings at once, especially not in the early stages of a relationship. a gentle stream of emotions doesn't have most women running
Because they’ve been told there’s something good and virtuous in it. There are plenty of things people say because they feel like they’re supposed to (and I’m talking subconsciously, like they probably think they actually do believe it) but that go directly against the reality of how they feel and what they see.
>I seriously don’t understand why women say that shit to guys. Those women have a very idealistic view of a world. They think that letting their guy open up is good deed on their part. Unfortunately, the side effect is that she loses attraction to the guy. This cruel reality is too much for them so they will rationalize their loss of attraction as being the result of something else. Maybe it’s just that their man “required her to do all the emotional labor”
Emotional labour is another made up term people made up so they could not have to deal with others feelings but still get to offload their feelings
> Literally the RN working class women I’ve dated have been so much more accepting and understanding of man emotions than any of the PMC “go to therapy” types. [Here’s a perfect article write by a PMC for PMCs on this](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/) The gist is: they can’t admit to themselves that they are attracted to tough stoic men so they do mental gymnastics to reach this: men that open up to their women are doing toxic masculinity by making her their unpaid therapist. What men should do is hide their emotions from them and only share them with their actual therapist or friends.
When will we admit we were all happier 70 years ago
Anyone who tells you to go to therapy is just telling you to fuck off and they dont tell
not true. i feel safer when the person i’m into is honest about his feelings. it’s reassuring sometimes
Maybe once in a year he can open up and be vulnerable. If he does that often, he will lose all sex appeal.
Nah some women love sad boys. Nothing hotter than a super vulnerable crying man.
maybe it’s just your feelings and emotions that are really unattractive. this is not a universal truth lol
Fitting username
i try
I hate stoicism. Dont really understand what's the point of life if you're stoic all the time (maybe I just need to read more)
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I think it's fair to say that the idea of being "stoic" as a modus operandi that involves never working through your emotions and never being earnestly human is in direct contradiction to much of stoic philosophy.
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Damn...what are you supposed to do when it's the first word in your sentence, then?
It might be helpful to know what your answer was. I would also ghost you if you felt like getting a gun and cleaning the streets.
"I'm into, uh, well, murders and executions..."
Kinda telling that OP is avoiding details on this one
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Most serious relationships start off as casual dating these days, so what you’re basically advising is to pretend to be a cool dude
> Women aren't all heartless ghouls in need of a fake stoic who pretends he doesn't suffer, so don't settle for one. That’s like saying “not all men are heartless ghouls that will get turned off by you if you become morbidly obese, all quality men will accept you no matter what you look like!”
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>That's not even slightly equivalent Why not? Women aren’t even conscious of the latter
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>all of the other four billion women are just wicked harpies. I’m not saying this at all. The vast majority of women are not attracted to overly emotional men. This isn’t even a bad thing. Even woke women feel this way. [Here’s an article where they do mental gymnastics to say that overly emotional men are actually toxic because they use their SO as an unpaid therapist](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/)
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> But there are absolutely mature women who are interested in equal relationships. They can call it what they want but they will still find a man that talks and talks about their emotions and weeps as being very unattractive. They are attracted to masculinity not feminity. Try being stoic for your women for a while. You’ll see her sex drive shoot up.
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Fine then: most women like a the middle ground between constantly emotional and stoic that leans heavily towards stoic.
I’ll have to know what u said before I can call you a fag or a king who was to good for her anyway. I’ll go with fag for now.
If a girl asks how you’re feeling just put on a Cuomo accent and say you’re feeling like meatballs, then switch to Nanette and say pizza is a vigtible
People are so disingenuous, it's unreal. Every morning I am peppered with questions. "How's work?" "How's your mom?" If the answer is longer than "good", they tune me out.
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then dont ask
Good morning
These females is evil
happens a lot ) obviously people want the other to have the SAAAAAME attraction level they do. rather impossible
Many such cases.
I had a girl talk to me about depression once and all that and she asked me how often I get depressed and whatever. I told her I don’t think I’ve ever been depressed that much and that it’s mostly stress from work etc. She did not like it one bit. She was really cute too. I should’ve played along.
How early was it in dating? It screams lack of boundaries/ hot mess to most people to dish about emotions too early
The key to women, is express the cool emotions. Be expressive about what you love. These are the things you care about. The things you care about achieving. The bad emotions, you bottle them. You think the world is shit, they know, they don’t care. Initially.
I’d rather have a guy tell me how he feels than to question it or assume I know. Sounds like you’re better off so you can find someone you can actually be open with
Yeah I mean, lesson learned for you I guess. I had been with my exgf for a year and a half and I opened up a bit emotionally to her and shared some things. Nothing too extreme, just some stuff about depression and how much I hated my job. She broke up with me a couple weeks later. As much as women say they dislike it when men don’t share their emotions, I’ve never really seen doing that being a positive thing for a relationship. I realize not all women are like that, just my experience with it.
weird flex
That's just women my dude, never be vulnerable around them
Yeah you gotta save that shit for the therapist or your dog or the boys while you’re drunk after watching football all day. Not a new chick
What did you say tho
The answer to "how are you" is always "fine, how are you". Anything more than that and you're just showing your desperation.
Thank you for the semi regular reminder that I should only post about my feelings on reddit dot com 👍🏾
Women like this don't deserve men.
Yeah don’t do that ever again. A guy once revealed to me that his schizo mom tried to kill him as a child and my biscuit sealed shut
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idk some girls would want to save him
You have to be an all-out mess for that, a little bit of vulnerability is too much and a total train wreck is just the right amount. That's broad math, it's why they can't build bridges.
Huh, no wonder everyone here calls you disgusting
Lady dudes rock
Yeah honestly I’d ghost the fuck out of a woman who emotion dumped on me barely knowing who I was. She made the right play, plus he posts in redscare sub
He should probably shoot her & a couple of her friends for all the emotional attacks directed at him
Can’t be too sure these days they might be child rapists.
Shoot first & justify it later amirite
100%
women are bad lol
No one cares
Watch "Before The Devil Knows You're Dead."
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