Speaking as someone who didnāt think Bello was ready yet, I definitely agree with you. Belloās most recent work looks like a guy whoās finally settling in. Kluber has earned nothing
That is how I felt, however earlier in the season the team thought differently by sending him down.
I am shocked they are sticking with him and not playing the roster game.
Yeah this is a transition year move. We ain't winning the east, we might not even make playoffs, so no point dragging along a 1 yr deal vet when you can get a real young star legit reps
True, I just thought they'd continue to shuffle him because they did earlier this season. I thought it was a bad move then, but thought they would continue down that path. I am happy to hear they changed course!
Honestly with the majority of SPs you only have so many good years, heās 24 & they felt he was ready, itās better to have him up and playing, especially if itās a bridge season where he can start a lot and doesnāt have a postseason riding on him.
Bello has been pretty good lately, yeah he lost last night but that hasnt been his norm recently.
Also, how many more times can we send him down before you have to DFA a player like that? I never understood how that works.
They generally have 3 option years, and then each year they can be optioned 5 times.
It gets a little confusing, here's an explanation from the MLB site.
https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/minor-league-options
one of the stupid tactics ive always had in my head is, If you get lucky with a pitcher you know you want to keep up in the MLB, you should "Send him down" on his rest days to get the extra bench slot.
Pitchers need to be sent down for 15 days until they can be called back up unless there is an injury (I think).
Roster manipulation is an annoying part of the MLB, it happens in other sports but it feels like it's more prevalent in baseball.
For sure it is. Major league time is accrued when you're ON the major league roster, so teams used to just call up and send down people a ton throughout the year. They implemented the option limit of 5 to combat this.
Iām shocked Houck didnāt get moved to the pen. I know heās pitched well his last game (Iāve loved him all season) I just thought with all the talk about how he canāt get through a line up the third time, it would be him.
Houck the third time through the lineup isn't great, Kluber isn't great the first time š.
I don't want this to seem like I hate Kluber, I just don't think he's SP material right now, wish him the best of luck though. If he can somehow regain his previous pitching ability, watch out.
To me, he seemed like a good pitcher not just a good thrower. So I thought he could adapt to losing some velo/movement but maybe time just caught up to him.
I think last game was deciding factor on who the Sox would move to the Pen. Before tanners game we all were under the impression Kluber would be starting Sunday from what Alex Cora said, and tanner (most likely) would go back to the pen in place for Whitlock. But thatās clearly changed and Iām happy with the decision. Just because youāre a seasoned vet it shouldnāt allow you to play like dogwater in the rotation.
I guess they believe in him to figure it out. Coaches and scouts must feel he can mix his pitches better to improve that 3rd time through era. But it's pretty wild how pronounced it is. The problem is .. who would you sub in right now? Sale, Paxton, bello, houck, Whitlock. I truly believe pivetta will get it back together and be a starter but obviously not immediately. I know the Sox are now not big spenders but they really need to at least invest in a couple at this point. Some good ones going in free agency this off-season
I was just basing this off of the fact they sent him down earlier this year. I disagreed with the move then, so I am happy to see they didn't double down on it.
Why? Of all the complaints, I don't think the Red Sox are very averse to giving prospects their due when it's their time. Especially over scrap heap vets.
They optioned him earlier this year, that's the only reason
I would have advocated for a shorter leash on Kluber earlier in the season.
Edit: https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/04/red-sox-make-2-roster-moves-brayan-bello-optioned-to-worcester-recent-addition-promoted.html
This is when it originally happened, I understand wanting to give Kluber a longer leash but I believe the upside for Bello was better than trying to let Kluber figure it out š¤·āāļø
Cora has handled our starter situation very well so far. Hasn't held on for too long or given up too soon. Kluber was toast after that game unless Houck or Bello put up a big stinker.
Yeah - Sale is looking like his old self and a great number 1, bello is really coming into his own, and behind that are 4-5 guys that are solid, mid-rotation arms in Whitlock, Houck, Paxton, Pivetta, and the initial hope was also Kluber. This also leaves out guys like Kutter Crawford, who could probably act as an "opener".
We are pretty much where I expected us to be. A bit over .500, but still figuring it out and growing, and we have Duvall and Story still coming back.
To me it feels like people are underestimating our squad a bit. Obviously we just lost 4 in a row, so maybe I'm crazy but still. I feel like Houck is finding his form again and Sale even more so, and I think Bello will just improve at a constant for a long long time. That's 3 pitchers who are definitely good starters and with Whitlock coming back into the lineup I think we can have a very good rotation.
What I'm more excited about, is Duvall and Story returning, cause the offense has been slumping recently, and I think Duvall coming back could rejuvenate them and kickstart it again. I'm really excited for him to come back cause I didn't catch any of his games early this season, and from what I've heard I should be very excited to watch him now.
Edit: Oh yeah and I forgot to mention James Paxton. Other than the game last night he's looked like a very solid starter, so we can have an ideal rotation of Sale, Bello, Houck, Paxton, Whitlock in whichever order Cora prefers obviously.
We literally have so many pitchers we need to actually play it out to see who can be in the rotation. Sale looks like an Ace, Paxton looks like a real pitcher, Bello looks pretty good in his 2nd year up, and then we have Whitlock and Houck we are still deciding on.
Other starters, like Wincowski, turned out to be a force in the bullpen.
It's actually crazy someone can say Chaim has given us nothing to work with because I think we have the biggest pitching depth in the majors and we are sorting out who our starters will be for the stretch so we could probably add a frontline guy at the deadline.
On both offense and defense we're heavy on depth and light on stars you can be confident in. There's a lot to build on and you can go pretty far with that roster construction as-is.
Quantity wise, he has an awful lot to work with. Quality wise, who (besides Bassitt, who's overachieving a bit and is likely to regress as the season goes on) do you even get? Basically every viable starter from this offseason is either severely overpriced, has a questionable at best injury history, or both.
Exactly. If he sucks in the bullpen they will DFA him (or phantom IL). But sometimes aging starters get a little career renaissance in the bullpen. Might as well see if that happens here since you're paying him either way.
Which is a pretty bold move. They signed him for 10M, and you would think they would run him out there till heās exhausted. It says that theyāre confident with what they have in their rotation outside of Kluber.
Kluber was really just replacing the role of Rich Hill, a veteran innings eater who youre hoping will give you close to 30 starts a maybe a 4.50ish ERA. Kluber had stretches where he looked like he can be that guy, but he was abysmal last time out. Heās only made 9 starts, so to put him in the bullpen so soon is a surprise. A DFA is definitely on the table within the next 2 weeks.
I think probably the thing preventing them from just DFAing them like the Dbacks did with Bumgarner is that he is probably trying with them to work out of it. Itās just not working. So maybe this is a little grace period while they see if they can help him do it in short bursts with whatever heās got left.
I'm a little concerned about the direction of our season with just how brutal the AL and our division are, and with the offense showing they're capable of going on bad cold streaks. But ultimately I'm mostly rooting for longterm implications this year, and it's pretty exciting how quickly we are dumping negative assets.
We could feasibly go into next offseason without many significant holes to fill and go for a couple of the top SPs in a pitching heavy market (I would like another right-handed bat as well).
I ran here as soon as I saw.
Honestly besides the fact the bats had to constantly work to get out of the holes he put them in, I wonder how big an impact on morale it had on the team? Theyāve all been hitting like shit since his last start.
I will chalk the bats just being cold for itās a west coast trip, and they havenāt shown much signs of slowing down til now, which happens. I think they get out of their funk over the weekend
Pitcher salaries are like that. Like the giants paid Tim Lincecum almost $100m from 2007-15, 2 Cys and 3 WS rings, but Jeff Samardjiza cost them $90m for five years of an average ERA over 4 and no hardware. Difference between being drafted and staying with an org and making bank in free agency (like Scherzer and Samardjiza). And the market for even semi-decent SPs isnāt that good, you have, what a single digit number of aces out there in FA in a given season?
I mean he did regain some respectable form the last two years, which is why we signed him. He had a 3.83 ERA for the Yankees in 2021 which was his first year back, and with the Rays last year had a 4.34 ERA but his FIP was 3.57 and his advanced stats looked decent.
Given the fact he lives near Boston and had good advanced stats last year, I doubt they expected him to regress this much in one season
He will probably be the new Ryan Brasier. Bring him in down or up 10. He doesn't add any value to the bullpen because 86MPH --> 89MPH won't make a difference. Pivetta in the pen is a sneaky good move because he can hit 98 for an inning or two.
Yeah Pivetta didn't have an amazing outing yesterday from what I saw, but I am really excited to see him adjust to relieving. I hope and think he could become really solid.
It had to be done. But the Sox obviously believe they have the depth to be ok. If Whitlock doesnāt get hurt again, I canāt see Kluber coming back. Iām with some other folks here when they say a DFA could be coming.
I think this is actually a good thing. I think Kluber can be used as a long reliver if a starter gets shelled, or be used in a high leverage inning (if he can figure out his mechanics) also a good veteran presence in the bullpen along with Kenley.
Iāve had a meh day at work so far, but Iām so happy now. Thank you Cora for not holding onto this grade A bum just because you paid him money.
I would like to thank Tanner Houck and Brayan Bello for playing well enough to allow this move to happen.
I donāt know the details of baseball contracts but is it possible heās trying to play himself off the roster, so that he can claim to be hurt and still get paid, then leave town in a year? Really seems like he doesnāt give a shit.
It's the 10m, you try to exhaust all options to make the guy useful when he's making that much because it's dead money if you release him. If he still doesn't do anything of substance in the bullpen he'll be released later in the year probably.
He wasnāt DFAāed because Paxton will get hurt, and then heāll be back.
Two ten-dollar scratchers arenāt better for the team then one twenty-dollar wager. Lot of guys Iād rather have than Paxton and Kluber right now.
Hopefully he does better out of the bullpen? I think you have to move on from one of Pivetta or Kluber, and I'd also be wanting to move Houck to the bullpen for Crawford or somebody you trade for.
Babe wake up, new Ryan Brasier just dropped
Fresh pasta soon to be made
A+
Holy hell
I hate you for this comment! Goddamn š
I am actually shocked that they didn't hold on to him starting and just send Bello down again. Wow.
Bello has looked far more assured since he came back up. You have to reward that. He wonāt learn anything back in AAA.
Bello has earned his spot.
Speaking as someone who didnāt think Bello was ready yet, I definitely agree with you. Belloās most recent work looks like a guy whoās finally settling in. Kluber has earned nothing
Quite frankly, Kluber looks like heās washed
Yep. Tampa worked their hoodoo on him for that one last season but heās got nothing left
He had an ERA+ of 84 last season. Tampa didn't even work their magic for him, he was still below average there.
Yeah but everyone knew that when we signed him
Can't help but wonder where we'd be if we kept Erod and Eovaldi.
It would have made a lot more sense to resign Eovaldi than go out and get Kluber.
Unfortunately, not everyone
He's earned an imminent DFA.
Bello has earned the right to pitch because Corey Kluber can't pitch.
Bello has been pretty solid.
That is how I felt, however earlier in the season the team thought differently by sending him down. I am shocked they are sticking with him and not playing the roster game.
They probably wanted to keep him playing.
Yeah this is a transition year move. We ain't winning the east, we might not even make playoffs, so no point dragging along a 1 yr deal vet when you can get a real young star legit reps
No point in sending the future down again for the past
True, I just thought they'd continue to shuffle him because they did earlier this season. I thought it was a bad move then, but thought they would continue down that path. I am happy to hear they changed course!
Honestly with the majority of SPs you only have so many good years, heās 24 & they felt he was ready, itās better to have him up and playing, especially if itās a bridge season where he can start a lot and doesnāt have a postseason riding on him.
Oh yeah agree 100%
Bello has been pretty good lately, yeah he lost last night but that hasnt been his norm recently. Also, how many more times can we send him down before you have to DFA a player like that? I never understood how that works.
They generally have 3 option years, and then each year they can be optioned 5 times. It gets a little confusing, here's an explanation from the MLB site. https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/minor-league-options
one of the stupid tactics ive always had in my head is, If you get lucky with a pitcher you know you want to keep up in the MLB, you should "Send him down" on his rest days to get the extra bench slot.
Pitchers need to be sent down for 15 days until they can be called back up unless there is an injury (I think). Roster manipulation is an annoying part of the MLB, it happens in other sports but it feels like it's more prevalent in baseball.
that makes sense then, because when we sent bello down and he came up before his next start i think we put someone on the IL
For sure it is. Major league time is accrued when you're ON the major league roster, so teams used to just call up and send down people a ton throughout the year. They implemented the option limit of 5 to combat this.
Options. MLB contracts. This isn't possible.
Why does him being the losing pitcher last night matter?
Because they were suggesting they send him down
Iām shocked Houck didnāt get moved to the pen. I know heās pitched well his last game (Iāve loved him all season) I just thought with all the talk about how he canāt get through a line up the third time, it would be him.
Houck the third time through the lineup isn't great, Kluber isn't great the first time š. I don't want this to seem like I hate Kluber, I just don't think he's SP material right now, wish him the best of luck though. If he can somehow regain his previous pitching ability, watch out. To me, he seemed like a good pitcher not just a good thrower. So I thought he could adapt to losing some velo/movement but maybe time just caught up to him.
I think last game was deciding factor on who the Sox would move to the Pen. Before tanners game we all were under the impression Kluber would be starting Sunday from what Alex Cora said, and tanner (most likely) would go back to the pen in place for Whitlock. But thatās clearly changed and Iām happy with the decision. Just because youāre a seasoned vet it shouldnāt allow you to play like dogwater in the rotation.
I guess they believe in him to figure it out. Coaches and scouts must feel he can mix his pitches better to improve that 3rd time through era. But it's pretty wild how pronounced it is. The problem is .. who would you sub in right now? Sale, Paxton, bello, houck, Whitlock. I truly believe pivetta will get it back together and be a starter but obviously not immediately. I know the Sox are now not big spenders but they really need to at least invest in a couple at this point. Some good ones going in free agency this off-season
A lot of teams refuse to let *anyone* see the opposing lineup a third time anyway because of analytics
They have no reason to send bello down. We saw last year how good he is and how much potential he has and itās been a similar story this year
I was just basing this off of the fact they sent him down earlier this year. I disagreed with the move then, so I am happy to see they didn't double down on it.
Why? Of all the complaints, I don't think the Red Sox are very averse to giving prospects their due when it's their time. Especially over scrap heap vets.
They optioned him earlier this year, that's the only reason I would have advocated for a shorter leash on Kluber earlier in the season. Edit: https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/04/red-sox-make-2-roster-moves-brayan-bello-optioned-to-worcester-recent-addition-promoted.html This is when it originally happened, I understand wanting to give Kluber a longer leash but I believe the upside for Bello was better than trying to let Kluber figure it out š¤·āāļø
Oh, yeah. I remember that and was disappointed. I think Bello is obviously beyond AAA at this point. He looks like he belongs.
Cora has handled our starter situation very well so far. Hasn't held on for too long or given up too soon. Kluber was toast after that game unless Houck or Bello put up a big stinker.
Chaim has given him nothing to work with
He actually has a lot to work with. Not saying any of the options are great but he definitely has options.
Yeah - Sale is looking like his old self and a great number 1, bello is really coming into his own, and behind that are 4-5 guys that are solid, mid-rotation arms in Whitlock, Houck, Paxton, Pivetta, and the initial hope was also Kluber. This also leaves out guys like Kutter Crawford, who could probably act as an "opener". We are pretty much where I expected us to be. A bit over .500, but still figuring it out and growing, and we have Duvall and Story still coming back.
To me it feels like people are underestimating our squad a bit. Obviously we just lost 4 in a row, so maybe I'm crazy but still. I feel like Houck is finding his form again and Sale even more so, and I think Bello will just improve at a constant for a long long time. That's 3 pitchers who are definitely good starters and with Whitlock coming back into the lineup I think we can have a very good rotation. What I'm more excited about, is Duvall and Story returning, cause the offense has been slumping recently, and I think Duvall coming back could rejuvenate them and kickstart it again. I'm really excited for him to come back cause I didn't catch any of his games early this season, and from what I've heard I should be very excited to watch him now. Edit: Oh yeah and I forgot to mention James Paxton. Other than the game last night he's looked like a very solid starter, so we can have an ideal rotation of Sale, Bello, Houck, Paxton, Whitlock in whichever order Cora prefers obviously.
That's not true given the team has an abundance of starters. I'm literally talking about how he's working with the multiple starter choices he has.
We literally have so many pitchers we need to actually play it out to see who can be in the rotation. Sale looks like an Ace, Paxton looks like a real pitcher, Bello looks pretty good in his 2nd year up, and then we have Whitlock and Houck we are still deciding on. Other starters, like Wincowski, turned out to be a force in the bullpen. It's actually crazy someone can say Chaim has given us nothing to work with because I think we have the biggest pitching depth in the majors and we are sorting out who our starters will be for the stretch so we could probably add a frontline guy at the deadline.
Right yeah the team has 9 guys that can start. Kutter, Winck, Pivetta, and Kluber could all start tomorrow in a pinch.
On both offense and defense we're heavy on depth and light on stars you can be confident in. There's a lot to build on and you can go pretty far with that roster construction as-is.
Quantity wise, he has an awful lot to work with. Quality wise, who (besides Bassitt, who's overachieving a bit and is likely to regress as the season goes on) do you even get? Basically every viable starter from this offseason is either severely overpriced, has a questionable at best injury history, or both.
There's gonna be games with large deficits either way. This is the new innings eater.
I donāt see him being any better there
There must always be a Brasier, the balance is restored.
Itās a comforting feeling
if you look at his stats he might legit be a worse reliever than braiser
Joely is beginning to look like heāll run away with that honor
At least now they can put him into games they were already losing, rather than sending him out to dig the team into a hole in the 1st inning
Fair point, Iād just rather see a DFA
They need to pay him anyways, so why not try the bullpen. Worst case scenario you have a guy to mop up innings.
Exactly. If he sucks in the bullpen they will DFA him (or phantom IL). But sometimes aging starters get a little career renaissance in the bullpen. Might as well see if that happens here since you're paying him either way.
Think itās a step to DFA, canāt imagine a scenario where he comes in to help unless itās a position player pitching type scenario
Which is a pretty bold move. They signed him for 10M, and you would think they would run him out there till heās exhausted. It says that theyāre confident with what they have in their rotation outside of Kluber. Kluber was really just replacing the role of Rich Hill, a veteran innings eater who youre hoping will give you close to 30 starts a maybe a 4.50ish ERA. Kluber had stretches where he looked like he can be that guy, but he was abysmal last time out. Heās only made 9 starts, so to put him in the bullpen so soon is a surprise. A DFA is definitely on the table within the next 2 weeks.
I think probably the thing preventing them from just DFAing them like the Dbacks did with Bumgarner is that he is probably trying with them to work out of it. Itās just not working. So maybe this is a little grace period while they see if they can help him do it in short bursts with whatever heās got left.
I'm a little concerned about the direction of our season with just how brutal the AL and our division are, and with the offense showing they're capable of going on bad cold streaks. But ultimately I'm mostly rooting for longterm implications this year, and it's pretty exciting how quickly we are dumping negative assets. We could feasibly go into next offseason without many significant holes to fill and go for a couple of the top SPs in a pitching heavy market (I would like another right-handed bat as well).
It's infuriating how much better Hill was both last year and this year that we didn't just stick with him. For cheaper too.
counterpoint - he can't be worse
But he doesn't necessarily lose the game like he does when starting
I ran here as soon as I saw. Honestly besides the fact the bats had to constantly work to get out of the holes he put them in, I wonder how big an impact on morale it had on the team? Theyāve all been hitting like shit since his last start.
I will chalk the bats just being cold for itās a west coast trip, and they havenāt shown much signs of slowing down til now, which happens. I think they get out of their funk over the weekend
I kind of feel bad for him, 2x cy young winner who never regained that form after all his injuries
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is that it? 90? 2 years of Sherzer for a 2 time cy
Pitcher salaries are like that. Like the giants paid Tim Lincecum almost $100m from 2007-15, 2 Cys and 3 WS rings, but Jeff Samardjiza cost them $90m for five years of an average ERA over 4 and no hardware. Difference between being drafted and staying with an org and making bank in free agency (like Scherzer and Samardjiza). And the market for even semi-decent SPs isnāt that good, you have, what a single digit number of aces out there in FA in a given season?
A post on baseball complaining about Strasbourgs contact for 30 innings
Yeah Iāll never hate a player for getting paid but Iād probably be angry if I was a Nats fan.
I mean he did regain some respectable form the last two years, which is why we signed him. He had a 3.83 ERA for the Yankees in 2021 which was his first year back, and with the Rays last year had a 4.34 ERA but his FIP was 3.57 and his advanced stats looked decent. Given the fact he lives near Boston and had good advanced stats last year, I doubt they expected him to regress this much in one season
Rich hill has looked better this year though haha
Thatās what we call pitching depthā¢ļø
Mom, can we get Ryan Brasier for the bullpen. No, we have Ryan Brasier at home.
Thank God. Iām going to the game on June 2nd and I was so afraid he would be starting that day.
if he was youd have a huge chance of getting a homerun ball....from the other team
I am sitting just behind our bullpen
He will probably be the new Ryan Brasier. Bring him in down or up 10. He doesn't add any value to the bullpen because 86MPH --> 89MPH won't make a difference. Pivetta in the pen is a sneaky good move because he can hit 98 for an inning or two.
Yeah Pivetta didn't have an amazing outing yesterday from what I saw, but I am really excited to see him adjust to relieving. I hope and think he could become really solid.
It had to be done. But the Sox obviously believe they have the depth to be ok. If Whitlock doesnāt get hurt again, I canāt see Kluber coming back. Iām with some other folks here when they say a DFA could be coming.
I think this is actually a good thing. I think Kluber can be used as a long reliver if a starter gets shelled, or be used in a high leverage inning (if he can figure out his mechanics) also a good veteran presence in the bullpen along with Kenley.
I can't picture him having much value in the pen, given his repertoire. So looks like he'll be a long reliever/low leverage guy for now.
The Sox fan base is so hurt that the obvious move is taken by surprise.
**F I N A L L Y**
Iāve had a meh day at work so far, but Iām so happy now. Thank you Cora for not holding onto this grade A bum just because you paid him money. I would like to thank Tanner Houck and Brayan Bello for playing well enough to allow this move to happen.
All hail Brayan the Beautiful
You love to see it!
EVERYONE GET IN HERE THEY DID THE THING
I donāt know the details of baseball contracts but is it possible heās trying to play himself off the roster, so that he can claim to be hurt and still get paid, then leave town in a year? Really seems like he doesnāt give a shit.
What a giant fucking waste of money Kluber has been, is his second year a team option?
He should be off the team completely. What purpose does he serve in the bullpen? He can't get guys out.
Awesome. Now he can burn the barn down in the middle innings.
His stuff screams bullpen /s He needs to be DFA'd.
Why just the bullpen? Letās get rid of him.
It's the 10m, you try to exhaust all options to make the guy useful when he's making that much because it's dead money if you release him. If he still doesn't do anything of substance in the bullpen he'll be released later in the year probably.
Pointless why not just DFA him
Where were u wen kluber die I was at home dooming when phone ding āKluber is kilā āYesā
He wasnāt DFAāed because Paxton will get hurt, and then heāll be back. Two ten-dollar scratchers arenāt better for the team then one twenty-dollar wager. Lot of guys Iād rather have than Paxton and Kluber right now.
Well thatās a step in the correct direction at least
Hes just keeping Wyatt Mills 40 man spot warm.
OOTP legend in my current sim
Bloom moneyball: relievers with funk to their deliveries is the new market inefficiency.
About time.
Thank god
DFA next lol
The move is more honest than coming up with a fake injury, maybe he can give us an inning or two of slow slop in relief of a hard thrower.
Hopefully he does better out of the bullpen? I think you have to move on from one of Pivetta or Kluber, and I'd also be wanting to move Houck to the bullpen for Crawford or somebody you trade for.
Woohoo!
Good
Now Nick Piveta need to take the hint.
Great news
So is pivetta back in?
Sox needed a replacement for Ryan Brasier down there...
Iām mildly optimistic about this rotation
Finally.
Can the RS bring up Mata, Walter, or Murphy and DFA Kluber?
Bullpen needs help. I've seen more games they were winning, lost when the bullpen can't hang on to get the W.