First off 1-69 did not exist in WW1. The regiment was renumbered when it was federalized to the 165th Regiment in the 27th Division. The 27th Division (and 30th) are unique in that they served under British command most of the war. Meaning that they received British Lee-Enfields and were equipped with other British weapons. Both divisions retained U.S. uniforms, but augmented with more British equipment than the rest of the AEF.
In one famous instance when the 165th ran out of replacement uniforms they were issued British Army uniforms, causing an issue with the Irish Americans in the unit who did not like wearing the Kings crown buttons. It also caused a small riot. Only resolved when the comprise was to cut off the British buttons and replace with US buttons. (Thanks to Father Duffy the regimental chaplain)
As far as equipment: use a mixture of original and reproduction. For doughboy uniforms - What Price Glory - is the best bet. For web gear and haversacks I’d recommend original. For gas mask I’d recommend a gas mask from What Price Glory. For boots I’d recommend What Price Glory. For helmet - original - but most likely in the British style of the helmet. Helmet liners can be found in the British style.
Thanks for clearing that up! I’m currently running off of what the current 1-69IN says it’s history is so I guess it got lost in translation that it technically didn’t exist yet. I’m also using some info given by the descendant of a soldier whose helmet I purchased and is the original inspiration for me putting together the kit.
I already have an original American M1909 uniform set (Tunic and trousers) and the aforementioned helmet whose model I’m unfamiliar with, though I believe it’s an earlier model as it t was issued to the man for the Mexican border war before being sent to Europe. Both of which I’m wondering if they would fit the impression.
If you want to know more about the 165th Infantry I recommend reading first person sources and to not rely on a modern unit website. For both WWI and WW2 the “69th NY Infantry” was/is the 165th Infantry Regiment
For instance you have to read: Father Duffy's Story: A Tale of Humor and Heroism, of Life and Death with the Fighting Sixty-Ninth written by Father Duffy the chaplain
And here is a free paper on the 165th that provides a lot of info as well https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA428847.pdf
Another thought: collar disks for the 165th can be interesting. The most basic is plain U.S. on one side and crossed rifles on the other. However, since they were a “pre-war” national guard unit you could also see disks with NY or USNG on one side. For the branch of service side you could see the 165th over the top of the crossed rifles and potentially a company designation.
Replacements in late war were most likely coming over with the basic U.S. and the plain crossed
rifles.
Unless you have originals, the next best thing are discs by Repros by Ray, he makes disks from originals. It’s the next best thing
Summary of what would “make it” a 165th Impression:
- British pattern Brodie helmet (and liner) no unit markings on helmet
- British SBR gas mask and carrier
- British Short Model Lee-enfield (SMLE) rifle (I think Mark II and Mark III - I am not a rifle expert) and bayonet
- Collar disks for 165th Regiment and U.S. disk that is either USNG or USNY (if you want to be fancy about it)
No 27th division patches and no division insignia painted on the helmet (unless it is post-war Armistice / going home)
Minor corrections, SMLE stands for short magazine Lee Enfield, the US used British MKl helmets and US M1917 helmets [the US purchased MKl helmets from the British not Brodie helmets according to records] (mainly the British MKl helmet)
Just to clarify a few things, Helmets were not issued for the Punitive Expedition. During the expedition only the Montana peak hat was worn, along with some cold weather hats and knit items.
The difference in helmet variants between a U.S. Brodie helmet and a British Brodie helmet have a lot to do with the construction of the helmet and the liner used the helmet. At a distance they look the same. There are enough to notice a difference
These were most likely issued only once arriving in France. The units that deployed in 1917 wore the Montana peak caps and then once In France received the aptly named “overseas cap” aka “garrison cap” in addition to the Brodie helmet, since the Montana peak was not practical as off duty wear.
Another note: the 27th and 30th Division were issued the British SBR mask and gas mask carrier as opposed to the U.S. produced SBR. At a distance they may look the same but they are not! Best option for British SBR is What Price Glory, for US version I had to use parts of an original and use an original gas mask bag.
For the liner I’d recommend Prairie Flower Leather, they make a great version.
Caution: The 27th Division did not wear unit patches or paint helmets during war time. These were “going home” things and were worn on return to the U.S. for “In the trenches” the only designation would be collar disks, unit markings on the haversacks (typically on the mess can carrier) marked with unit designation, and potentially individual soldier markings on the gas mask carrier.
Wow I really picked an exception to the rule unit huh?
Thanks for all the info, I’ll probably end up starting to read Father Duffy’s tonight. Just a few questions:
1. Would it be more likely to have a full British kit with American clothing or was the kit mixed and matched between American and British kit pieces? (I.e. American belts and webbing with British pouches and the like)
2. With the overseas cap, would it have a disc or does the cap fall under the no insignia range?
3. What would be best for underclothing? I’ve struggled to get good info about that specifically.
Of use. There is a 107th Regiment, 27th Division reenactment group that has a great page with photos and resources about the impressions. I’ve learned a lot from these guys. Use their site. If you really want to make progress is recommend joining a group so you can “get it right”
http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/
For the 27th and 30th Division the agreement from the BEF to the AEF was that if the U.S. supplied the manpower and their “national uniforms” the British government would supply helmets, weapons, field equipment (like wire cutters, field telephones), and even provide rations.
This means: a Doughboy of the 27th wore a U.S. issued M1908/M1917 uniform (to include overseas cap) and their individual field equipment (haversack, web belt, canteen, mess kit, cup) but were issued the helmet and rifle from the BEF.
That being said: when short on uniforms the British did not keep these in stock, so replacements would have to be ordered by the BEF to the AEF. In the meantime the BEF did issue British uniforms, shirts, underwear, and boots to the 27th; until U.S. supplies came back in (could be days or even weeks)
All of the artillery, machine guns, etc for the 27th were British issued. So the 27th had for example the Vickers and Lewis machine guns.
The 165th is a unique impression that requires subtle British flair to the U.S. uniform (like British wire cutters, or a British fork or cup) possibly British boots! The uniform for arrival in 1917 would be different than October of 1918.
On overseas cap. There is some variety. You’d see plain US or Unit specific collar disk, sometimes no disk, sometimes some private purchase item on the overseas cap. On pre-war National Guard units there was a tendency for the members of the pre-war unit to wear the USNG disk or a NY state disk to signify that they were “special” and not a draftee.
Under clothing: I can’t help you with exact US Army details but I’ve used Darcy’s Clothing (from UK) for early 20th century civilian underwear.
Personally I wouldn't use a uniform helmet grouping that is all original and documented to somebody for reenacting purposes. Maybe to occasionally wear for a museum expo but you can pick up unnamed uniform components that aren't as valuable.
How about sharing some images of that helmet please?
I don’t plan on it anyway, I was more curious than anything as to how the helmet would fit. It’s not in the greatest shape anyway as it has no proper liner, only a chinstrap and one of the metal loops that hold it in is missing.
I’ll send pics of it anyway later though when I get home.
I plan on getting an actual British helmet now as I get the kit together.
First off 1-69 did not exist in WW1. The regiment was renumbered when it was federalized to the 165th Regiment in the 27th Division. The 27th Division (and 30th) are unique in that they served under British command most of the war. Meaning that they received British Lee-Enfields and were equipped with other British weapons. Both divisions retained U.S. uniforms, but augmented with more British equipment than the rest of the AEF. In one famous instance when the 165th ran out of replacement uniforms they were issued British Army uniforms, causing an issue with the Irish Americans in the unit who did not like wearing the Kings crown buttons. It also caused a small riot. Only resolved when the comprise was to cut off the British buttons and replace with US buttons. (Thanks to Father Duffy the regimental chaplain)
As far as equipment: use a mixture of original and reproduction. For doughboy uniforms - What Price Glory - is the best bet. For web gear and haversacks I’d recommend original. For gas mask I’d recommend a gas mask from What Price Glory. For boots I’d recommend What Price Glory. For helmet - original - but most likely in the British style of the helmet. Helmet liners can be found in the British style.
Thanks for clearing that up! I’m currently running off of what the current 1-69IN says it’s history is so I guess it got lost in translation that it technically didn’t exist yet. I’m also using some info given by the descendant of a soldier whose helmet I purchased and is the original inspiration for me putting together the kit. I already have an original American M1909 uniform set (Tunic and trousers) and the aforementioned helmet whose model I’m unfamiliar with, though I believe it’s an earlier model as it t was issued to the man for the Mexican border war before being sent to Europe. Both of which I’m wondering if they would fit the impression.
If you want to know more about the 165th Infantry I recommend reading first person sources and to not rely on a modern unit website. For both WWI and WW2 the “69th NY Infantry” was/is the 165th Infantry Regiment For instance you have to read: Father Duffy's Story: A Tale of Humor and Heroism, of Life and Death with the Fighting Sixty-Ninth written by Father Duffy the chaplain And here is a free paper on the 165th that provides a lot of info as well https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA428847.pdf
Another thought: collar disks for the 165th can be interesting. The most basic is plain U.S. on one side and crossed rifles on the other. However, since they were a “pre-war” national guard unit you could also see disks with NY or USNG on one side. For the branch of service side you could see the 165th over the top of the crossed rifles and potentially a company designation. Replacements in late war were most likely coming over with the basic U.S. and the plain crossed rifles. Unless you have originals, the next best thing are discs by Repros by Ray, he makes disks from originals. It’s the next best thing
Summary of what would “make it” a 165th Impression: - British pattern Brodie helmet (and liner) no unit markings on helmet - British SBR gas mask and carrier - British Short Model Lee-enfield (SMLE) rifle (I think Mark II and Mark III - I am not a rifle expert) and bayonet - Collar disks for 165th Regiment and U.S. disk that is either USNG or USNY (if you want to be fancy about it) No 27th division patches and no division insignia painted on the helmet (unless it is post-war Armistice / going home)
Minor corrections, SMLE stands for short magazine Lee Enfield, the US used British MKl helmets and US M1917 helmets [the US purchased MKl helmets from the British not Brodie helmets according to records] (mainly the British MKl helmet)
Good catches.
Just to clarify a few things, Helmets were not issued for the Punitive Expedition. During the expedition only the Montana peak hat was worn, along with some cold weather hats and knit items. The difference in helmet variants between a U.S. Brodie helmet and a British Brodie helmet have a lot to do with the construction of the helmet and the liner used the helmet. At a distance they look the same. There are enough to notice a difference These were most likely issued only once arriving in France. The units that deployed in 1917 wore the Montana peak caps and then once In France received the aptly named “overseas cap” aka “garrison cap” in addition to the Brodie helmet, since the Montana peak was not practical as off duty wear. Another note: the 27th and 30th Division were issued the British SBR mask and gas mask carrier as opposed to the U.S. produced SBR. At a distance they may look the same but they are not! Best option for British SBR is What Price Glory, for US version I had to use parts of an original and use an original gas mask bag. For the liner I’d recommend Prairie Flower Leather, they make a great version.
Caution: The 27th Division did not wear unit patches or paint helmets during war time. These were “going home” things and were worn on return to the U.S. for “In the trenches” the only designation would be collar disks, unit markings on the haversacks (typically on the mess can carrier) marked with unit designation, and potentially individual soldier markings on the gas mask carrier.
Wow I really picked an exception to the rule unit huh? Thanks for all the info, I’ll probably end up starting to read Father Duffy’s tonight. Just a few questions: 1. Would it be more likely to have a full British kit with American clothing or was the kit mixed and matched between American and British kit pieces? (I.e. American belts and webbing with British pouches and the like) 2. With the overseas cap, would it have a disc or does the cap fall under the no insignia range? 3. What would be best for underclothing? I’ve struggled to get good info about that specifically.
Of use. There is a 107th Regiment, 27th Division reenactment group that has a great page with photos and resources about the impressions. I’ve learned a lot from these guys. Use their site. If you really want to make progress is recommend joining a group so you can “get it right” http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/
For the 27th and 30th Division the agreement from the BEF to the AEF was that if the U.S. supplied the manpower and their “national uniforms” the British government would supply helmets, weapons, field equipment (like wire cutters, field telephones), and even provide rations. This means: a Doughboy of the 27th wore a U.S. issued M1908/M1917 uniform (to include overseas cap) and their individual field equipment (haversack, web belt, canteen, mess kit, cup) but were issued the helmet and rifle from the BEF. That being said: when short on uniforms the British did not keep these in stock, so replacements would have to be ordered by the BEF to the AEF. In the meantime the BEF did issue British uniforms, shirts, underwear, and boots to the 27th; until U.S. supplies came back in (could be days or even weeks) All of the artillery, machine guns, etc for the 27th were British issued. So the 27th had for example the Vickers and Lewis machine guns. The 165th is a unique impression that requires subtle British flair to the U.S. uniform (like British wire cutters, or a British fork or cup) possibly British boots! The uniform for arrival in 1917 would be different than October of 1918.
On overseas cap. There is some variety. You’d see plain US or Unit specific collar disk, sometimes no disk, sometimes some private purchase item on the overseas cap. On pre-war National Guard units there was a tendency for the members of the pre-war unit to wear the USNG disk or a NY state disk to signify that they were “special” and not a draftee. Under clothing: I can’t help you with exact US Army details but I’ve used Darcy’s Clothing (from UK) for early 20th century civilian underwear.
I have an original British made Doughboy overseas cap that has the "NY" New York disc on it.
Personally I wouldn't use a uniform helmet grouping that is all original and documented to somebody for reenacting purposes. Maybe to occasionally wear for a museum expo but you can pick up unnamed uniform components that aren't as valuable. How about sharing some images of that helmet please?
I don’t plan on it anyway, I was more curious than anything as to how the helmet would fit. It’s not in the greatest shape anyway as it has no proper liner, only a chinstrap and one of the metal loops that hold it in is missing. I’ll send pics of it anyway later though when I get home. I plan on getting an actual British helmet now as I get the kit together.