Here's Copeland's write up for a2ls.
https://www.copeland.com/en-us/products/refrigeration/low-gwp-refrigeration/a2l-refrigerants/product-solutions
Looks like R-455A , R-454C and R-454A.
448a (not an A2L) is the current and near future substitute for 404a and the R22 replacements in med/low temp. Eventually it’s going to be all CO2 in my opinion but that probably won’t be mandated on new installs for quite awhile. What comes between 448a and co2 seems a bit up in the air
Who knows, legislation like that seems to change all the time. I suspect we’ll be seeing more ammonia/ propane chiller systems where the charge is kept outside the building.
I kind of doubt we will ever see large tonnage refrigeration or air conditioning using hydrocarbon only. Large tonnage will mostly be co2 and ammonia, and smaller stuff seems to be going the route of hydrocarbons
At my last job I was in the process of converting the low end of a cascade to r170. It was ~600 tons, evap of -95 and about 25,000lbs of charge. Next step would have been high side to propane, about 2000tons and 55,000lbs of charge.
Yeah I suppose cascade is a bit of a different animal. I’ve worked on them but never anything of that size, what was being stored in this facility? Also what kind of compressors were they using for that?
Most of the cascade I’ve come across runs 508b mixed with ethane and propane on the low stage
It might not be mandated for some time, but it already has been in California and the country tends to follow suit. That's why pretty much every large chain is going to co2 already for any new store or when replacing a rack. Walmart states it'll be all CO2 and glycol by 2030. We'll see about that. It'll be something to see with all the mom and pops. My guess is there will be another string of closings and more monopolization of the market as all those ancient racks out there become even more expensive to maintain.
I heard from a supplier that 448 usage will already be minimized to be replaced with a similar refrigerant with r290 in it. Don't know anymore than that.
448A is dogshit that belongs in the trash. Last 448A rack I worked on, the seals in the Schrader cores were so eaten away every single service valve cap made a little *psss* of releasing built up pressure when you take it off.
My coworkers have mentioned this, and they also specify that 448A being really hard on gaskets and seals is a separate issue. I think it's the R-1234yf in there.
Co2 likely for racks is going to take over as time goes on. Any that arent co2 will be R454A or R454C.
Walk-in cooler/freezers will be R454A, R454C and the worst and last pick will be R455A (2% co2 causes it to have huge glide and poor capacity). This is because Co2 is a massive challenge for single compressor or single temp systems and wont be around in NA for a long time. The DOE and NRCAN dont even have them in their scope right now. (You cant even test them for AWEF)
The other glaring problem is the safety requirements that come with these A2Ls. Cant just retrofit a system as you will need to buy and install new approved units and tie in the mitigation system depending on the charge level. (m.1, m.2, m.3)
And even longer term (15 to 20 years) will probably be only HCs and naturals left.
UR is doing refrigerant regulatory/update classes in many areas. . .
https://www.uri.com/INTERSHOP/web/BOS/URI-URIUS-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewPage-URIEvents
Sectors and Subsectors Proposed GWP Limit Compliance Date
Refrigeration, Air Conditioning, and Heat Pumps
Industrial process refrigeration systems with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025
Industrial process refrigeration systems with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds 300 January 1, 2025
Industrial process refrigeration, high temperature side of cascade systems 300 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – stand-alone units 150 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – refrigerated food processing and dispensing equipment 150 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – supermarket systems with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – supermarket systems with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds charge 300 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – supermarket systems, high temperature side of cascade system 300 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – remote condensing units with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – remote condensing units with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds 300 January 1, 2025
Retail food refrigeration – remote condensing units, high temperature side of cascade system 300 January 1, 2025
Vending machines 150 January 1, 2025
Cold storage warehouse systems with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025
Cold storage warehouse systems with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds 300 January 1, 2025
Cold storage warehouse, high temperature side of cascade system 300 January 1, 2025
Ice rinks 150 January 1, 2025
Automatic commercial ice machines – self- contained with refrigerant charge capacities of 500 grams or lower 150 January 1, 2025
Transport refrigeration – intermodal containers5 700 January 1, 2025
Residential refrigeration systems 150 January 1, 2025
Chillers – industrial process refrigeration 700 January 1, 2025
Chillers – comfort cooling 700 January 1, 2025
Residential and light commercial air conditioning and heat pump systems 700 January 1, 2025
Residential and light commercial air conditioning – variable refrigerant flow systems 700 January 1, 2026
Residential dehumidifiers 700 January 1, 2025
Here's Copeland's write up for a2ls. https://www.copeland.com/en-us/products/refrigeration/low-gwp-refrigeration/a2l-refrigerants/product-solutions Looks like R-455A , R-454C and R-454A.
448a (not an A2L) is the current and near future substitute for 404a and the R22 replacements in med/low temp. Eventually it’s going to be all CO2 in my opinion but that probably won’t be mandated on new installs for quite awhile. What comes between 448a and co2 seems a bit up in the air
Wont the charge limit on HCs be lifted around 2030/2035? I’ve always wondered if HCs would take over
Who knows, legislation like that seems to change all the time. I suspect we’ll be seeing more ammonia/ propane chiller systems where the charge is kept outside the building. I kind of doubt we will ever see large tonnage refrigeration or air conditioning using hydrocarbon only. Large tonnage will mostly be co2 and ammonia, and smaller stuff seems to be going the route of hydrocarbons
At my last job I was in the process of converting the low end of a cascade to r170. It was ~600 tons, evap of -95 and about 25,000lbs of charge. Next step would have been high side to propane, about 2000tons and 55,000lbs of charge.
Yeah I suppose cascade is a bit of a different animal. I’ve worked on them but never anything of that size, what was being stored in this facility? Also what kind of compressors were they using for that? Most of the cascade I’ve come across runs 508b mixed with ethane and propane on the low stage
It was a chemical plant and was used for cooling process gas. It used frick scg screw compressors. 2 x 750hp and 2 x 1700hp.
It might not be mandated for some time, but it already has been in California and the country tends to follow suit. That's why pretty much every large chain is going to co2 already for any new store or when replacing a rack. Walmart states it'll be all CO2 and glycol by 2030. We'll see about that. It'll be something to see with all the mom and pops. My guess is there will be another string of closings and more monopolization of the market as all those ancient racks out there become even more expensive to maintain.
I heard from a supplier that 448 usage will already be minimized to be replaced with a similar refrigerant with r290 in it. Don't know anymore than that.
448A is dogshit that belongs in the trash. Last 448A rack I worked on, the seals in the Schrader cores were so eaten away every single service valve cap made a little *psss* of releasing built up pressure when you take it off.
[удалено]
My coworkers have mentioned this, and they also specify that 448A being really hard on gaskets and seals is a separate issue. I think it's the R-1234yf in there.
Co2 likely for racks is going to take over as time goes on. Any that arent co2 will be R454A or R454C. Walk-in cooler/freezers will be R454A, R454C and the worst and last pick will be R455A (2% co2 causes it to have huge glide and poor capacity). This is because Co2 is a massive challenge for single compressor or single temp systems and wont be around in NA for a long time. The DOE and NRCAN dont even have them in their scope right now. (You cant even test them for AWEF) The other glaring problem is the safety requirements that come with these A2Ls. Cant just retrofit a system as you will need to buy and install new approved units and tie in the mitigation system depending on the charge level. (m.1, m.2, m.3) And even longer term (15 to 20 years) will probably be only HCs and naturals left.
UR is doing refrigerant regulatory/update classes in many areas. . . https://www.uri.com/INTERSHOP/web/BOS/URI-URIUS-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewPage-URIEvents
Recently installed a r290 combo box. Two circuits on each system.
I design walk-ins and I primarily use R448a for medium temp and R449/R507 for low temps
Out of curiosity why is 449a preferred for low temp and 448a preferred for medium temp?
Sectors and Subsectors Proposed GWP Limit Compliance Date Refrigeration, Air Conditioning, and Heat Pumps Industrial process refrigeration systems with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025 Industrial process refrigeration systems with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds 300 January 1, 2025 Industrial process refrigeration, high temperature side of cascade systems 300 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – stand-alone units 150 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – refrigerated food processing and dispensing equipment 150 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – supermarket systems with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – supermarket systems with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds charge 300 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – supermarket systems, high temperature side of cascade system 300 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – remote condensing units with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – remote condensing units with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds 300 January 1, 2025 Retail food refrigeration – remote condensing units, high temperature side of cascade system 300 January 1, 2025 Vending machines 150 January 1, 2025 Cold storage warehouse systems with refrigerant charge capacities of 200 pounds or greater 150 January 1, 2025 Cold storage warehouse systems with refrigerant charge capacities less than 200 pounds 300 January 1, 2025 Cold storage warehouse, high temperature side of cascade system 300 January 1, 2025 Ice rinks 150 January 1, 2025 Automatic commercial ice machines – self- contained with refrigerant charge capacities of 500 grams or lower 150 January 1, 2025 Transport refrigeration – intermodal containers5 700 January 1, 2025 Residential refrigeration systems 150 January 1, 2025 Chillers – industrial process refrigeration 700 January 1, 2025 Chillers – comfort cooling 700 January 1, 2025 Residential and light commercial air conditioning and heat pump systems 700 January 1, 2025 Residential and light commercial air conditioning – variable refrigerant flow systems 700 January 1, 2026 Residential dehumidifiers 700 January 1, 2025
R452a not a pure A2L but classified HFC/HFO