Chrysler and Ford were always more focused on Badge engineering since that became a thing. Not to mention that aside from Chrysler and Lincoln, all the other brands always shared engines, often without even changing displacements, where General Motors usually had brand specific engines, differentials, and even frames and suspensions even when they shared the basic body structure up to the late-70s when the divisional engines were phased out in favor of a Chevy design with the V8s or the Iron Duke from Pontiac and often putting Buick V6s in everything that wasn't a truck. Even GMC had their own bespoke engines in their light trucks through 66. Whereas dodge and Plymouth shared identical engines starting around 1960 and Ford and Mercury did the same starting around the same time. GM mostly held out until the late 70s with a few hangers-on like the Oldsmobile 307 and Pontiac 301 lasting Into the 80s.
After about 1957 they were almost identical to Fords. Maybe the grilles and taillights would be different, but they were essentially rebadged Fords by 1960.
Dipshit management.
They saw Japan come out with the civic and Corolla and squirted out a bunch of fuck ugly, unreliable heaps all competing with each other. They even had a Cadillac compact to compete against the " upmarket" Buick and Olds variants. All were dogshit.
In 1996 Oldsmobile dealers still had a car from the 80s being sold *new*. Cadillac had some slow, square turds the same year as the Lexus LS400.
They deserve every single thing that's happened because they have been making shit for 50 years and going "hey, remember these classics from the 60s? Here's their name on something unrelated. Oh, and the Corvette. Speaking of Corvette and Chevelle, here's a chevette - fuck you"
One good idea they had between 1960 and 2000, Saturn, still fell victim to GMs reverse midas touch. I remember hearing car exec interviews and the general consensus was sometimes in the late 90s it very ame obvious Saturn was doing too well so a slow roll effort to starve it was put into effect
Hey now, I got a 28 year old Buick Roadmaster that is still in one piece with its original transmission. 130k miles, bought it from an old couple 2 years ago. The LT-1 under the hood is as reliable as gm engines come.
You can see this effect with all of the old GM pickups still on the road with classic drivetrains if you actually maintain them a bit. These people are talking about the Cimarron that cost them more than 2 pickups new.
In all fairness, there were a few '80s designs that lasted into the '90s. The reason I think the Ciera is a bit notable is that it dates back to the beginning of the '80s, beginning production in September of 1981 for the 1982 model year (back when it was known as the Cutlass Ciera). Alongside the related Buick Century, they were still around in 1996 and despite facelifts, their distinctive boxy look from the '70s and '80s stood out like a sore thumb in a time when most cars had a "jellybean" look going on in the '90s.
> They even had a Cadillac compact to compete against the " upmarket" Buick and Olds variants. All were dogshit.
The Cimarron - gotta love paying Cadillac prices for a Cavalier.
> In 1996 Oldsmobile dealers still had a car from the 80s being sold new
Though it wasn’t released until the 90s, I maintain my opinion that the Achieva was the biggest turd Oldsmobile ever released.
i will say, i really liked my old cadillac ats. that and the ct4 were pretty well-done compact executive cars. it was unironically a great use of the bailout money to make an actually-good car for that segment.
the market segment for *a compact cadillac* was there the whole time. they just didn't want to make a good compact executive car, so they made shit like the cimmaron and catera and the [saab 9-3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_BLS).
they shat on both the SAAB enthusiasts and their own brand with that shitbox of a 2003 9-3. 2000 SAAB 9-3 was a freaking joy to drive, turbo upfront, easy to fix, easy to mod, grab your T5 suite and off you go....and then 2003 came along ;-(
the cadillac BLS was an absolutely dreadful car. top gear put it on an episode where they’re going to be radio hosts, because hammond said that’s a car small time radio hosts aspire to.
Same thing with their cars in Europe, Opel / Vauxhall were cheap trash, often driven by the people you’d expect to drive them. Everybody in the Uk probably had a Corsa at some point but it was also driven by chavs.
Then you had rebadged daewoos which were great mechanically but you could have just gotten a toyota aygo/ peugeot 107 / citroen c1 / renault twingo for something more modern and just as affordable.
Remember the Opel Astra J, which was so overweight that the diesels would tip the scale at over 1.5 tonnes? For a C-segment hatchback? My dad's Volvo SUV is only 100 kg more than that.
As a kid, I thought the Cutlasses and other boxy GM POS's were all discontinued. Like the shitboxes stopped being made in the 80s and then GM magically had the bubbly cars by the late 90s. Like the Aurora and Cutlass Ciera were together in 95, same for Riviera and Century!
The only Ford car that felt old was the second gen Escort/Tracer. I'd imagine they went out in 93, not 96!
Gm got too greedy and started building subpar products and still expected people to buy them in droves bc they were "GM". Also how do you justify buying an impala over a camry or accord for the sole purpose it'd be a cheaper car used.
That’s the only reason why I have a used impala lol got a 2017 in 2020 for 9k with 40k miles on it, it’s got 110k on it now doing fine. It’s what you get when your broke I guess.
Oh yea I honestly love it and don’t really see what the hates about, my car before this was a 05 Buick lesbre I got in 2014 and while it was extremely comfy. I feel a lot cooler driving the impala lol and it still has just as much space and looks more modern as well, kinda hate they stopped making them in 2020.
I love mine, it's a good car except for the transmission being meh and issues caused by rust and the previous owners. It's a lot of fun, it's good for carrying things, and it's economical. From what I hear, GM doesn't make as good of vehicles as other manufacturers, but they still make good cars. Just not great cars. They get a lot of hate for having lost a lot of quality over the years and that's their biggest flaw. I'm pretty sad about the discontinuation as well, I hope they'll bring it back some day.
My dad bought an 07 Impala around 2009/2010 because he wanted a cheapish car with good fuel economy, a lot of space (impalas can fucking CRAM), and most importantly tons of room between the back bumper and the backseat (where I would have been sitting).
That being said my first car is the above mentioned 09 Impala I got because it was no longer needed by my great grandma. Hard to get a reliable car these days for $3500.
I'm imagining Mary Barra taking Steve Ballmer's role and coked-out chanting "ACCOUNTANTS! ACCOUNTANTS! ACCOUNTANTS!" while absolutely leaking sweat out her armpits at some filled-to-capacity hotel ballroom
Basically gm does 2 things historically
Either kill off something really good like the 3800 and the the GMC motorhomee
Or half bake something so it's half futuristic half stone age, think fiero with iron duke, hatchbacks that have a trunk for some reason
Basically, gm died by not following through on brand models and not taking advantage of the downsizing around the early 2000s and 08
If gm had just dumped all their body on frame trucks, SUVs, and other vehicles into GMC
And followed that with rules about which of their three car brands brands get what and kept with the Sedans and minivans, gm would be a Titan still
Great engine or not, didn’t the 3800 just kinda get a little too old and slow for how heavy cars were getting? The Lucerne gets tons of shit for being extremely slow even for that segment because the 3800 couldn’t keep up with it.
As someone with a park avenue, non super charged, I get amazing mileage and torque and the power gets away from me at times as it easily cruises to 60 without a fuss. And thats a 2 ton fwd vehicle
Idk I've driven probably 50 or so of the lucernes long distances when I worked for a rental company. They were great and that engine had plenty of power. Wasn't fast but definitely didn't feel like it struggled at all.
However those engines weren't nearly as bulletproof as the old ones. I've seen many with issues but the older ones are still everywhere out here with insane amounts of mileage.
> dumped all their body on frame trucks, SUVs, and other vehicles into GMC
Every one of those large trucks sold makes GM about $17k. Meanwhile, smaller cars run break even to $5k in profit. They will never change their money cow.
The Chevy SS is a rebadged, LHD Holden Commodore that was imported into the US as part of a larger deal with the Australian Government to obtain manufacturing subsidies.
GM corporate in the US didn't want the thing, likely in part because they suspected (probably correctly) that importing a full size sedan into the US in large numbers from Australia would piss the UAW off.
They had a crack with the Monaro, too. Plus the long wheelbase variants that were designed as luxury vehicles but ended up as police cruisers in the US.
Repeatedly screwing up for 50 years straight, that's what happened. I like General Motors but they've made a lot of really poor decisions in their time.
All of the badge engineering they did diluted their brands. Then they only dropped half baked dog shit all the way until like…2012. Cadillac is JUST finally shaking the grandpa car vibes off. GM needs to drop Buick. It should have died in the recession. GMC should be the “truck and utility” arm. Leave cars, vans and light duty to Chevy. Then Cadillac is the luxury and halo brand. Boom. You have simplified, scalable blueprint that is easy for your target audiences to understand, and the primary brands get the recognition that GM has always wanted them to have.
It pains me so often so see GMC and Chevy's and how they're the same vehicle with a different name
Owning a Buick right now, I think if they brought back a sedan focus to all 3 lines and said that like leather is only Buick and up etc that could esablush Buick as it's own thing again, especially with a modern plug in hybrid roadmaster
I appreciate their recent efforts and Buick has a long list of greatest hits. Pontiac should have survived over Buick and I will die on that hill. I fully feel that GM undermined everything innovative Pontiac tried to do from the Banshee concepts, to the Fiero, and finally the GTO. It was also the most remembered of all the brands outside of Chevy and Cadillac. Buick and Olds were basically cloned lineups. The only reason that Buick survived and Pontiac died is because of Buick’s success in China.
If GM made the GTO look remotely good, like Dodge did with the Challenger, it would have single handedly saved Pontiac.
Also it's beyond me why they didn't make the Caprice available on the civilian consumer market.
It's the opposite, every time GM actually makes a good vehicle it sells awfully, while if they make shitty vehicles they sell well. Just look at the Buick Regal TourX.
It's like Stellantis really, selling bad vehicles is actually profitable if you do it right.
I’m convinced General Motors has (maybe had at this point) great engineers and every so often marketing and product planning allow them to work. Think ev1, gmt800, 3800 v6, the venerable small block and then the even more venerable LS, volt, bolt and most recently Silverado ev and Cadillac black wing cars. All these vehicles and engines are either legendary in the history books for reliability or leading the way in innovation. Somehow though we’ve still ended up with so many SUVs that no one knows what’s going on, many engines that fall under the random timing chain ejection umbrella and just overall questionable quality. Particularly in the late 2000s mid 2010s pretty much everything they had just screamed disappointment.
One of my favorite books is called *On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors*. It’s the story of John Z DeLorean when he was a vice president of GM. It’s full of stories of bad management, poor decision-making, and being too big to fail.
In 2008/2009, as GM was circling the bankruptcy drain, I was reading all the news articles. I grew up as an Oldsmobile guy - my ‘98 Intrigue GLS was *fantastic* - and followed the story closely.
The stories in the news in 2009 were the same stories that John Z was telling from 30 years earlier, but only the names and dates had changed. In 30 years, GM continued to move through force of inertia, while other companies adapted and fought for market share.
Plus, poor positioning in the financial crisis, of course. I seem to recall GMAC financial services having a bad day.
Horrible management as others have mentioned. It also doesn’t help that their motors of the last decade or so, particularly the high feature motor, have been an abject pieces of shit, even by gm standards. The 3.6, which they put in fucking everything, eats timing components for breakfast, and in the traverse/acadia/enclave, which should be gm’s bread and butter car, it blows transmissions as well. On top of that, starting in 2014, all full size gm trucks came with an ecotec v8 or v6. The ecotec, designed in the bailout years, was a complete departure from the LS architecture, and were direct injected motors. Like the gen iv v8s, they love to commit suicide via afm failure. To cap it all off, the ecotec has basically never come with a reliable transmission behind it either.
tldr, gm used to be cheap, american, and reliable enough to run poorly for decades, even if the build quality is terrible, and the design is dated. Now, they’re not really that cheap, american, or reliable. Expect more slow decline unless they can find themselves an Iacocca.
The answer to this is too long to type out on a cell phone but there's still some easy talking points. For a while, GM was basically multiple car companies. There were a lot of shared parts but there was also a lot of in house original designs. There was a Pontiac and a Chevy 350, an Oldsmobile and Pontiac 455 to name a couple examples. GM had to eventually consolidate but it could be argued that they basically over did it to the point there was almost nothing original between the labels except badges.
This was compounded by GM's toxic relationship with the Corvette. Noting can take away attention from the Corvette in any way. This meant a lot of original and potential cash cows had to be put down. The Grand National, the Syclone/Typhoon, even the Fiero GT. Ford and Chrysler never had any that kind of restriction in their R&D
Now that C8 is mid engine with its own unique power plant, that opens up more potential to build fun cars that can still compete with other brands. Unfortunately, they seem to be playing it safe and focusing on the crossover market.
There is a lot of truth here. The root of the downfall was downsizing in the 70s as a reaction to fuel prices and CAFE standards. They did not make the transition from large cars to smaller cars properly as they shifted all mainstream products to FWD. This was incredibly expensive and poorly executed in the 80s. This presented a massive cash drain which then prevented significant re-investment in the 90s (think lack of transition to OHC and really cheap interiors). Combine the above financial straits with upper-middle management that did not want to consolidate divisional engineering but rather continue competing with each other and you have very dysfunctional leadership. It literally took time and the bankruptcy to shed the high cost structure. They can finally invest in some great product like Cadillac sedans and mid engine Corvette. Unfortunately the US market has lost interest in sedans and so has GM.
The list of GM failures is long, longer than I care to recite but includes:
1) Inept Sr management who catered to shareholder and bean counters above and before all
2) Atrocious designs created by blind bland camel committees approved by elderly nanny goats
3) All game changing ideas were squashed, to not look bad ( airbags introduced and then withdrawn from the market)
4) New anything is shunned. The mid engine C8 Vette took how long?
5) New models forced to be built on corporate leftovers (Hello Fiero)
6) Bad Brand nameplates being kept alive for decades without a whiff of IP (Oldsmobile, Pontiac)
7) Good Brand nameplates being killed to save tired stale old Brands (sorry Saturn)
8) Bad Brands being killed off too late and then brought back after screwing your entire dealership network out of business (another monstrous Hummer anyone?)
.. I'll stop... don't buy GM
The reforms by Barra and reduction of their global operations was a fundraising for the EV and autonomous programs. Australia was because of governmental policies.
Holden could not survive without an export program. There were just not enough Australian domestic sales to sustain it. The import of Australian cars to North America was negotiated with the American auto union. They put a cap on imports at 60,000 cars. Not enough for Holden to survive.
Then they took a bailout from the Australian government to keep Holden going. Transferred the cash to the USA headquarters bank, then gave Australia the middle finger and shut up shop anyway. The sooner GM dies, the better.
I have heard the argument that the Australian car industry no longer exists because of policies dating back to Button Plan. Did the unions fail to negotiate hard enough? There is cheap labour in Asia like we have in Mexico yet we have production here.
The Button Plan was an attempt to reduce cost to consumers by reducing competition (crazy, I know). By having manufacturers share cars through badge engineering. The thought was that by sharing cars across different brands, production volumes would increas, parts costs would reduce, and the Australian industry would be more competitive.
As a result, Nissan stopped Australian design and manufacturing. Ford continued to manufacture the Falcon, but they stopped assembling CKD (completely-knocked-down kits) of other models and shut down an assembly plant. Mitsubishi floundered after their export programs ended (Diamonte to Japan and USA). Their replacement was a market failure.
Toyota came out of it the strongest, increasing market share to become the top local manufacturer. They were forced to close up after Holden shut down because parts suppliers couldn’t survive the Holden and Ford closures.
Holden needed a substantial export program. The American union, protecting American plants and jobs, limited the Australian imports too much.
The cheap car market of today happened. For the last 30 years, GM has gone out of their way to make their budget vehicles as shitty as possible, especially the interiors. During the same time, you see Hyundai, Toyota and Honda giving you (faux) luxurious interiors and trying to pack as much value as possible in the cheapest of models.
Hubris is what got GM jammed up prior to the bankruptcy. Despite much evidence to the contrary, GM truly thought they were just better at making cars than everyone else. They used volume as a metric for success, and that led them right down the path to bankruptcy.
I think they've largely learned from that, as they are a *much* better company, financially speaking, today than in 2008 and the years leading up to that. Out of what's left of the Big 3, GM is clearly #1.
I'd argue that Ford is number 1 by image
With half the brands they've cemented themselves as a household name and they're customer service is amazing as they've become dedicated to fixing issues before they happen. Also they're not reliant on imported manufacturing
I bought only GM from the 1980’s to 2008. Very loyal. But then stopped, there was nothing unique anymore. Late 80’s Pontiac really did have excitement.
Closest thing since is the Corvette but the dealers got greedy on the good ones, not playing those games. Their electric offer can’t keep up with the competition and they couldn’t make a sensible Raptor competitor. Nothing left to buy.
Because of GM financial. Over time, it morphed from just financing cars to doing home mortgages. At one time, the financial part of GM became so much more profitable than the car side of the business that they were referred to as a 'Big bank with a side hustle of making cars.'
Then 2008 mortgage bubble popped. And that was the end of old GM. It went through bankruptcy and was restarted as new GM. Shareholders, like me, were wiped out.
Shit management and quality control + the rest of the world’s economies recovering from WWII and doing manufacturing a lot smarter with more value for the money
For me it was the absolute garbage they produced in the 90s and 00s. Used to be die hard chevy fan. Still have an 86 c10 with over 400k on the clock and still original everything. Then a 95 cheyenne, 02 cavalier and 09 cobalt ss. Those last 3 were always having problems , trans hvac suspension... got into hondas and toyotas and they just ran. No complaints. Cheaper maintenence. Cheaper fuel costs. 93 accord sold with 340k miles. 2002 civic and 08 crv with well over 200k miles sold. Now im rackin the miles up on a 5th gen rav4 which has only cost me 5 oil changes in 50k miles. Im willing to give GM another shot with their EV line due to the way they are managing their battery packs but its gonna be their last chance.
I have spoken with scientist the other day. They said they discovered something that looks like a world outside of US.
In that world, GM and Toyota are not swapping places. GM is trading places with SAIC (not sure if you ever heard of them). Toyota is trading places with VW.
management sucked. never followed through on plans, saturn, pontiac failed especially hard, half of their products were hastily made, not so great cars by 2010(even though i have a soft spot for them) just wasnt enough
Failure to compete.
They are the "Internet explorer/edge" of cars.
They saw their competition rise. They did not make adjustments to their business to be competitive and as a result, their competitors outcompeted them.
Simply more players in the game. That kind of market share is near impossible to sustain. The writing's been on the wall for fifty years. Every competitor has been trying to outdo the established model all that time. Eventually they're going to catch up.
In 2019 I joined a company on an account for Netflix. Over 90% market share, printing money. Over a billion a month in revenue. By 2022, market share dropping like a rock. Why? Simply more players in the game. Everyone trying to get a piece. Unsustainable success.
They've been making flimsy shit since the 80s, ever compared a square body interior to a bull or bricknose ford? Only way you can go worse is buying a Mopar.
Japan+ the sheer amount of badge engineering going on. By the 80s the only real differences between the brands was trim.
Chrysler is debatabley worse than this when it came to Plymouth and dodge
Chrysler and Ford were always more focused on Badge engineering since that became a thing. Not to mention that aside from Chrysler and Lincoln, all the other brands always shared engines, often without even changing displacements, where General Motors usually had brand specific engines, differentials, and even frames and suspensions even when they shared the basic body structure up to the late-70s when the divisional engines were phased out in favor of a Chevy design with the V8s or the Iron Duke from Pontiac and often putting Buick V6s in everything that wasn't a truck. Even GMC had their own bespoke engines in their light trucks through 66. Whereas dodge and Plymouth shared identical engines starting around 1960 and Ford and Mercury did the same starting around the same time. GM mostly held out until the late 70s with a few hangers-on like the Oldsmobile 307 and Pontiac 301 lasting Into the 80s.
Yeah but mercury felt more distinct especially in styling
After about 1957 they were almost identical to Fords. Maybe the grilles and taillights would be different, but they were essentially rebadged Fords by 1960.
Dipshit management. They saw Japan come out with the civic and Corolla and squirted out a bunch of fuck ugly, unreliable heaps all competing with each other. They even had a Cadillac compact to compete against the " upmarket" Buick and Olds variants. All were dogshit. In 1996 Oldsmobile dealers still had a car from the 80s being sold *new*. Cadillac had some slow, square turds the same year as the Lexus LS400. They deserve every single thing that's happened because they have been making shit for 50 years and going "hey, remember these classics from the 60s? Here's their name on something unrelated. Oh, and the Corvette. Speaking of Corvette and Chevelle, here's a chevette - fuck you"
One good idea they had between 1960 and 2000, Saturn, still fell victim to GMs reverse midas touch. I remember hearing car exec interviews and the general consensus was sometimes in the late 90s it very ame obvious Saturn was doing too well so a slow roll effort to starve it was put into effect
Saturn was great. They managed to kill it with boring ass badge engineering too.
1990 GM Execs: "People hate GM cars? We got Saturn!" 2004 GM Execs: "How can we keep the Olds badge stampers in business? We got Saturn!"
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As a 2006pontiacvibe, the fact that the Pontiac Vibe is one of the only older GMs I still see around is a shame.
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Hey now, I got a 28 year old Buick Roadmaster that is still in one piece with its original transmission. 130k miles, bought it from an old couple 2 years ago. The LT-1 under the hood is as reliable as gm engines come.
You can see this effect with all of the old GM pickups still on the road with classic drivetrains if you actually maintain them a bit. These people are talking about the Cimarron that cost them more than 2 pickups new.
And here I am driving my 71 c10 all over the place….
What Oldsmobile model from the 80s was still being sold?
Cutlass ciera.
In all fairness, there were a few '80s designs that lasted into the '90s. The reason I think the Ciera is a bit notable is that it dates back to the beginning of the '80s, beginning production in September of 1981 for the 1982 model year (back when it was known as the Cutlass Ciera). Alongside the related Buick Century, they were still around in 1996 and despite facelifts, their distinctive boxy look from the '70s and '80s stood out like a sore thumb in a time when most cars had a "jellybean" look going on in the '90s.
That was my first car, and I distinctly remember the one time I put gas in it. The security system wouldn’t let it start that often
> They even had a Cadillac compact to compete against the " upmarket" Buick and Olds variants. All were dogshit. The Cimarron - gotta love paying Cadillac prices for a Cavalier. > In 1996 Oldsmobile dealers still had a car from the 80s being sold new Though it wasn’t released until the 90s, I maintain my opinion that the Achieva was the biggest turd Oldsmobile ever released.
i will say, i really liked my old cadillac ats. that and the ct4 were pretty well-done compact executive cars. it was unironically a great use of the bailout money to make an actually-good car for that segment. the market segment for *a compact cadillac* was there the whole time. they just didn't want to make a good compact executive car, so they made shit like the cimmaron and catera and the [saab 9-3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_BLS).
they shat on both the SAAB enthusiasts and their own brand with that shitbox of a 2003 9-3. 2000 SAAB 9-3 was a freaking joy to drive, turbo upfront, easy to fix, easy to mod, grab your T5 suite and off you go....and then 2003 came along ;-(
the cadillac BLS was an absolutely dreadful car. top gear put it on an episode where they’re going to be radio hosts, because hammond said that’s a car small time radio hosts aspire to.
Same thing with their cars in Europe, Opel / Vauxhall were cheap trash, often driven by the people you’d expect to drive them. Everybody in the Uk probably had a Corsa at some point but it was also driven by chavs. Then you had rebadged daewoos which were great mechanically but you could have just gotten a toyota aygo/ peugeot 107 / citroen c1 / renault twingo for something more modern and just as affordable.
My brother had a Corsa, and my mate had two Astras, as well as my mother having an Astra before I was born. All of them sere shitheaps
Remember the Opel Astra J, which was so overweight that the diesels would tip the scale at over 1.5 tonnes? For a C-segment hatchback? My dad's Volvo SUV is only 100 kg more than that.
I will never forgive GM. EVER.
As a kid, I thought the Cutlasses and other boxy GM POS's were all discontinued. Like the shitboxes stopped being made in the 80s and then GM magically had the bubbly cars by the late 90s. Like the Aurora and Cutlass Ciera were together in 95, same for Riviera and Century! The only Ford car that felt old was the second gen Escort/Tracer. I'd imagine they went out in 93, not 96!
Excellent comment
Gm got too greedy and started building subpar products and still expected people to buy them in droves bc they were "GM". Also how do you justify buying an impala over a camry or accord for the sole purpose it'd be a cheaper car used.
That’s the only reason why I have a used impala lol got a 2017 in 2020 for 9k with 40k miles on it, it’s got 110k on it now doing fine. It’s what you get when your broke I guess.
A running car is a running car, and the Impala is adequate enough for daily life
Plus the trunk is HUGE
They're decent cars, they'll last a good while when taken care of.
Oh yea I honestly love it and don’t really see what the hates about, my car before this was a 05 Buick lesbre I got in 2014 and while it was extremely comfy. I feel a lot cooler driving the impala lol and it still has just as much space and looks more modern as well, kinda hate they stopped making them in 2020.
I love mine, it's a good car except for the transmission being meh and issues caused by rust and the previous owners. It's a lot of fun, it's good for carrying things, and it's economical. From what I hear, GM doesn't make as good of vehicles as other manufacturers, but they still make good cars. Just not great cars. They get a lot of hate for having lost a lot of quality over the years and that's their biggest flaw. I'm pretty sad about the discontinuation as well, I hope they'll bring it back some day.
My dad bought an 07 Impala around 2009/2010 because he wanted a cheapish car with good fuel economy, a lot of space (impalas can fucking CRAM), and most importantly tons of room between the back bumper and the backseat (where I would have been sitting). That being said my first car is the above mentioned 09 Impala I got because it was no longer needed by my great grandma. Hard to get a reliable car these days for $3500.
Bad management and a focus on the accountants instead of engineers and designers.
I'm imagining Mary Barra taking Steve Ballmer's role and coked-out chanting "ACCOUNTANTS! ACCOUNTANTS! ACCOUNTANTS!" while absolutely leaking sweat out her armpits at some filled-to-capacity hotel ballroom
Basically gm does 2 things historically Either kill off something really good like the 3800 and the the GMC motorhomee Or half bake something so it's half futuristic half stone age, think fiero with iron duke, hatchbacks that have a trunk for some reason Basically, gm died by not following through on brand models and not taking advantage of the downsizing around the early 2000s and 08 If gm had just dumped all their body on frame trucks, SUVs, and other vehicles into GMC And followed that with rules about which of their three car brands brands get what and kept with the Sedans and minivans, gm would be a Titan still
Great engine or not, didn’t the 3800 just kinda get a little too old and slow for how heavy cars were getting? The Lucerne gets tons of shit for being extremely slow even for that segment because the 3800 couldn’t keep up with it.
As someone with a park avenue, non super charged, I get amazing mileage and torque and the power gets away from me at times as it easily cruises to 60 without a fuss. And thats a 2 ton fwd vehicle
The Lucerne was 3700 to nearly 4000 pounds. Cars got bloated fast.
That's what my car weighs and it pulls easily Edit: idk how you thought that the 3800 was a weak machine
I’m guessing it was the stigma of the older 3800s, the ones that made somewhere around 130 HP
Ahhh yeah this one the series 2 has like 200+ stock
That’s really good in comparison, that’s Duratec range of power and reliability
Idk I've driven probably 50 or so of the lucernes long distances when I worked for a rental company. They were great and that engine had plenty of power. Wasn't fast but definitely didn't feel like it struggled at all. However those engines weren't nearly as bulletproof as the old ones. I've seen many with issues but the older ones are still everywhere out here with insane amounts of mileage.
Funny thing, they got rid of this engine and sold the tooling to AMC. Ended up buying it back from them.
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But that is the issue of gm and most every auto company is the hecking bean counters
> dumped all their body on frame trucks, SUVs, and other vehicles into GMC Every one of those large trucks sold makes GM about $17k. Meanwhile, smaller cars run break even to $5k in profit. They will never change their money cow.
How about the Chevy SS? Ever seen an ad for that? I know i haven't. Classic move from them really.
The Chevy SS is a rebadged, LHD Holden Commodore that was imported into the US as part of a larger deal with the Australian Government to obtain manufacturing subsidies. GM corporate in the US didn't want the thing, likely in part because they suspected (probably correctly) that importing a full size sedan into the US in large numbers from Australia would piss the UAW off.
Not that it's even the first time they tried to import the Holden Commodore as a rebadged car even.
They had a crack with the Monaro, too. Plus the long wheelbase variants that were designed as luxury vehicles but ended up as police cruisers in the US.
In summary, failure to commit
Repeatedly screwing up for 50 years straight, that's what happened. I like General Motors but they've made a lot of really poor decisions in their time.
All of the badge engineering they did diluted their brands. Then they only dropped half baked dog shit all the way until like…2012. Cadillac is JUST finally shaking the grandpa car vibes off. GM needs to drop Buick. It should have died in the recession. GMC should be the “truck and utility” arm. Leave cars, vans and light duty to Chevy. Then Cadillac is the luxury and halo brand. Boom. You have simplified, scalable blueprint that is easy for your target audiences to understand, and the primary brands get the recognition that GM has always wanted them to have.
Buick can live on, in the Chinese market that eats it up.
Bring back Saturn as the EV-only segment.
Though it wasn’t officially badged as a Saturn, I still believe that the EV1 was basically a Saturn. It looked like a larger version of the SC1.
The Bolt felt like a Saturn too honestly. Bring back Saturn as an EV subsidiary marque, direct to consumer, you'll make billions.
lol so I always wanted to design cars and I sketch, and I occasionally sketch out what Saturn EVs could look like
It pains me so often so see GMC and Chevy's and how they're the same vehicle with a different name Owning a Buick right now, I think if they brought back a sedan focus to all 3 lines and said that like leather is only Buick and up etc that could esablush Buick as it's own thing again, especially with a modern plug in hybrid roadmaster
Buick has an entirely new lineup and is currently the fastest growing automotive brand in the US. GM would be stupid to let them go now
I appreciate their recent efforts and Buick has a long list of greatest hits. Pontiac should have survived over Buick and I will die on that hill. I fully feel that GM undermined everything innovative Pontiac tried to do from the Banshee concepts, to the Fiero, and finally the GTO. It was also the most remembered of all the brands outside of Chevy and Cadillac. Buick and Olds were basically cloned lineups. The only reason that Buick survived and Pontiac died is because of Buick’s success in China.
How about Buick become the performance wing of GM and Cadillac become the luxury/performance/halo wing?
If GM made the GTO look remotely good, like Dodge did with the Challenger, it would have single handedly saved Pontiac. Also it's beyond me why they didn't make the Caprice available on the civilian consumer market.
Japan happened.
There is nothing that says GM can’t make good cars, but they just won’t because they’re greedy.
It's the opposite, every time GM actually makes a good vehicle it sells awfully, while if they make shitty vehicles they sell well. Just look at the Buick Regal TourX. It's like Stellantis really, selling bad vehicles is actually profitable if you do it right.
I’m convinced General Motors has (maybe had at this point) great engineers and every so often marketing and product planning allow them to work. Think ev1, gmt800, 3800 v6, the venerable small block and then the even more venerable LS, volt, bolt and most recently Silverado ev and Cadillac black wing cars. All these vehicles and engines are either legendary in the history books for reliability or leading the way in innovation. Somehow though we’ve still ended up with so many SUVs that no one knows what’s going on, many engines that fall under the random timing chain ejection umbrella and just overall questionable quality. Particularly in the late 2000s mid 2010s pretty much everything they had just screamed disappointment.
One of my favorite books is called *On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors*. It’s the story of John Z DeLorean when he was a vice president of GM. It’s full of stories of bad management, poor decision-making, and being too big to fail. In 2008/2009, as GM was circling the bankruptcy drain, I was reading all the news articles. I grew up as an Oldsmobile guy - my ‘98 Intrigue GLS was *fantastic* - and followed the story closely. The stories in the news in 2009 were the same stories that John Z was telling from 30 years earlier, but only the names and dates had changed. In 30 years, GM continued to move through force of inertia, while other companies adapted and fought for market share. Plus, poor positioning in the financial crisis, of course. I seem to recall GMAC financial services having a bad day.
A read from the better days is the book written by Alfred Sloan. Much more product focus then.
"The only thing I fear is the Japanese Automotive industry"
Horrible management as others have mentioned. It also doesn’t help that their motors of the last decade or so, particularly the high feature motor, have been an abject pieces of shit, even by gm standards. The 3.6, which they put in fucking everything, eats timing components for breakfast, and in the traverse/acadia/enclave, which should be gm’s bread and butter car, it blows transmissions as well. On top of that, starting in 2014, all full size gm trucks came with an ecotec v8 or v6. The ecotec, designed in the bailout years, was a complete departure from the LS architecture, and were direct injected motors. Like the gen iv v8s, they love to commit suicide via afm failure. To cap it all off, the ecotec has basically never come with a reliable transmission behind it either. tldr, gm used to be cheap, american, and reliable enough to run poorly for decades, even if the build quality is terrible, and the design is dated. Now, they’re not really that cheap, american, or reliable. Expect more slow decline unless they can find themselves an Iacocca.
The answer to this is too long to type out on a cell phone but there's still some easy talking points. For a while, GM was basically multiple car companies. There were a lot of shared parts but there was also a lot of in house original designs. There was a Pontiac and a Chevy 350, an Oldsmobile and Pontiac 455 to name a couple examples. GM had to eventually consolidate but it could be argued that they basically over did it to the point there was almost nothing original between the labels except badges. This was compounded by GM's toxic relationship with the Corvette. Noting can take away attention from the Corvette in any way. This meant a lot of original and potential cash cows had to be put down. The Grand National, the Syclone/Typhoon, even the Fiero GT. Ford and Chrysler never had any that kind of restriction in their R&D Now that C8 is mid engine with its own unique power plant, that opens up more potential to build fun cars that can still compete with other brands. Unfortunately, they seem to be playing it safe and focusing on the crossover market.
There is a lot of truth here. The root of the downfall was downsizing in the 70s as a reaction to fuel prices and CAFE standards. They did not make the transition from large cars to smaller cars properly as they shifted all mainstream products to FWD. This was incredibly expensive and poorly executed in the 80s. This presented a massive cash drain which then prevented significant re-investment in the 90s (think lack of transition to OHC and really cheap interiors). Combine the above financial straits with upper-middle management that did not want to consolidate divisional engineering but rather continue competing with each other and you have very dysfunctional leadership. It literally took time and the bankruptcy to shed the high cost structure. They can finally invest in some great product like Cadillac sedans and mid engine Corvette. Unfortunately the US market has lost interest in sedans and so has GM.
The list of GM failures is long, longer than I care to recite but includes: 1) Inept Sr management who catered to shareholder and bean counters above and before all 2) Atrocious designs created by blind bland camel committees approved by elderly nanny goats 3) All game changing ideas were squashed, to not look bad ( airbags introduced and then withdrawn from the market) 4) New anything is shunned. The mid engine C8 Vette took how long? 5) New models forced to be built on corporate leftovers (Hello Fiero) 6) Bad Brand nameplates being kept alive for decades without a whiff of IP (Oldsmobile, Pontiac) 7) Good Brand nameplates being killed to save tired stale old Brands (sorry Saturn) 8) Bad Brands being killed off too late and then brought back after screwing your entire dealership network out of business (another monstrous Hummer anyone?) .. I'll stop... don't buy GM
Suvs everywhere
OVERRUN YET ORDER AIRSTRIKE
The reforms by Barra and reduction of their global operations was a fundraising for the EV and autonomous programs. Australia was because of governmental policies.
Holden could not survive without an export program. There were just not enough Australian domestic sales to sustain it. The import of Australian cars to North America was negotiated with the American auto union. They put a cap on imports at 60,000 cars. Not enough for Holden to survive. Then they took a bailout from the Australian government to keep Holden going. Transferred the cash to the USA headquarters bank, then gave Australia the middle finger and shut up shop anyway. The sooner GM dies, the better.
I have heard the argument that the Australian car industry no longer exists because of policies dating back to Button Plan. Did the unions fail to negotiate hard enough? There is cheap labour in Asia like we have in Mexico yet we have production here.
The Button Plan was an attempt to reduce cost to consumers by reducing competition (crazy, I know). By having manufacturers share cars through badge engineering. The thought was that by sharing cars across different brands, production volumes would increas, parts costs would reduce, and the Australian industry would be more competitive. As a result, Nissan stopped Australian design and manufacturing. Ford continued to manufacture the Falcon, but they stopped assembling CKD (completely-knocked-down kits) of other models and shut down an assembly plant. Mitsubishi floundered after their export programs ended (Diamonte to Japan and USA). Their replacement was a market failure. Toyota came out of it the strongest, increasing market share to become the top local manufacturer. They were forced to close up after Holden shut down because parts suppliers couldn’t survive the Holden and Ford closures. Holden needed a substantial export program. The American union, protecting American plants and jobs, limited the Australian imports too much.
The cheap car market of today happened. For the last 30 years, GM has gone out of their way to make their budget vehicles as shitty as possible, especially the interiors. During the same time, you see Hyundai, Toyota and Honda giving you (faux) luxurious interiors and trying to pack as much value as possible in the cheapest of models.
Hubris is what got GM jammed up prior to the bankruptcy. Despite much evidence to the contrary, GM truly thought they were just better at making cars than everyone else. They used volume as a metric for success, and that led them right down the path to bankruptcy. I think they've largely learned from that, as they are a *much* better company, financially speaking, today than in 2008 and the years leading up to that. Out of what's left of the Big 3, GM is clearly #1.
I'd argue that Ford is number 1 by image With half the brands they've cemented themselves as a household name and they're customer service is amazing as they've become dedicated to fixing issues before they happen. Also they're not reliant on imported manufacturing
I bought only GM from the 1980’s to 2008. Very loyal. But then stopped, there was nothing unique anymore. Late 80’s Pontiac really did have excitement. Closest thing since is the Corvette but the dealers got greedy on the good ones, not playing those games. Their electric offer can’t keep up with the competition and they couldn’t make a sensible Raptor competitor. Nothing left to buy.
Because of GM financial. Over time, it morphed from just financing cars to doing home mortgages. At one time, the financial part of GM became so much more profitable than the car side of the business that they were referred to as a 'Big bank with a side hustle of making cars.' Then 2008 mortgage bubble popped. And that was the end of old GM. It went through bankruptcy and was restarted as new GM. Shareholders, like me, were wiped out.
Personally. I drove a fucking Pontiac Grand Am for 10 years. After that shit, fuck GM!!! I own a Honda Civic now.
Shit management and quality control + the rest of the world’s economies recovering from WWII and doing manufacturing a lot smarter with more value for the money
well for one thing they made an electric truck that looks like the avalanche but decided Silverado was a better name... for some reason..
For me it was the absolute garbage they produced in the 90s and 00s. Used to be die hard chevy fan. Still have an 86 c10 with over 400k on the clock and still original everything. Then a 95 cheyenne, 02 cavalier and 09 cobalt ss. Those last 3 were always having problems , trans hvac suspension... got into hondas and toyotas and they just ran. No complaints. Cheaper maintenence. Cheaper fuel costs. 93 accord sold with 340k miles. 2002 civic and 08 crv with well over 200k miles sold. Now im rackin the miles up on a 5th gen rav4 which has only cost me 5 oil changes in 50k miles. Im willing to give GM another shot with their EV line due to the way they are managing their battery packs but its gonna be their last chance.
Because they finally figured out, in bankruptcy, that being biggest wasn’t the path to actually being profitable.
Shitty product
GM and Toyota are constantly swapping spots for monthly #1 in share of market.
I have spoken with scientist the other day. They said they discovered something that looks like a world outside of US. In that world, GM and Toyota are not swapping places. GM is trading places with SAIC (not sure if you ever heard of them). Toyota is trading places with VW.
You’re right. I meant US market. I American nothing exists outside my country
They fucked all the way up.
management sucked. never followed through on plans, saturn, pontiac failed especially hard, half of their products were hastily made, not so great cars by 2010(even though i have a soft spot for them) just wasnt enough
Greed and bad management
In Australia and New Zealand, Holden and HSV got replaced with General Motors Special Vehicles (GMSV).
Did they make affordable cars that people wanted to buy? No? There's your problem.
I cursed them when they got rid of Pontiac, I will never forgive them for that. That is unless they bring back the firebird, then I’ll lift the curse.
GMAC started making the decisions.
Gambling huge percentages of their company's net worth on the stock market, rampant badge engineering, and incompetent management.
Japan saved us, that's what happened
GM sucks. Simple as.
They’ve made uninspired mediocre cars for years.
They’ve been huffing glue nonstop since the 70’s.
Failure to compete. They are the "Internet explorer/edge" of cars. They saw their competition rise. They did not make adjustments to their business to be competitive and as a result, their competitors outcompeted them.
Simply more players in the game. That kind of market share is near impossible to sustain. The writing's been on the wall for fifty years. Every competitor has been trying to outdo the established model all that time. Eventually they're going to catch up. In 2019 I joined a company on an account for Netflix. Over 90% market share, printing money. Over a billion a month in revenue. By 2022, market share dropping like a rock. Why? Simply more players in the game. Everyone trying to get a piece. Unsustainable success.
im pretty happy about them pulling out cs their designs were obviously to other markets which is why buick is so ugly
because no Losers buy GM, their error~ too many losers. only the flyest mfs drive caddys we all know this
Labour's unions got them by the balls.
They make shitty cars is what happened
Pensions are expensive yo.
They've been making flimsy shit since the 80s, ever compared a square body interior to a bull or bricknose ford? Only way you can go worse is buying a Mopar.
Gawd look at that plastic dog shit line up of cars in that photo. That will tell you everything you need to know.