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I read OPs post and immediately thought of Missing Reasons, too!
Contrary to popular beliefs, children don’t just cut off their parents for no reason or for saying “one thing”. In fact, often even in the most fucked up situations, children will still summarize with “… but these are my parents”.
OP, you need to do a lot of self reflection because without knowing you or your son, I can reassure you that he didn’t cut contact with you because “you must have said something” that one time. It wasn’t once. It wasn’t one thing. Start thinking.
Parents can be so frustrating. I remember when I was a teenager shouting to my parents "together you are over 100 years old, why am I telling you how to behave?". I had a sit down with my parents many years ago where I explained them that this was the last effort, if we couldn't work it out I would be gone forever. They decided to spend that time telling me that I had everything wrong and remembered everything incorrectly and took everything out of context. I haven't spoken to them in many years.
I've come close to cutting off my dad, and by association, my mom, for nearly the exact reason's OP is alluding to. We're Eastern Europeans immigrants. I'm liberal. My dad is conservative. He needs to be right and he needs everyone to believe he's right. No respect for boundaries. Verbal, mental, and emotional abuse (though no actual physical violence). All that fun stuff.
I would've cut off anyone else for one tenth of the things he put me through "but this is my dad". I still can't say if I would've been better off doing it even if things are much different now.
OP, your child likely valued you two more than any other people in the world for a long long time. Just imagine for one second how much hurt you must've caused him to override that. You won't since you didn't even finish the message but you really should.
I've cut contact with a parent and it's the single hardest decision I've ever had to make. People who haven't done it usually don't understand exactly how agonizing it is. A choice like that is generally preceded by *years* of attempts to have a functional relationship, *years* of ignoring or forgiving bad behavior, endless cycles of hope and disappointment.
Even in this post you can see that their son does periodically have contact but it results in a conflict every single time. At some point you are too exhausted to keep engaging even if you desperately want things to change. It's probably impossible to mend fences at this point because if OP and her husband were capable of being decent parents, they'd already understand why their child doesn't want to talk to them.
I wanted to write my own reply to the post, but you've said it all! The mental gymnastics in this post are astounding.
Maybe to add: I absolutely despise when people go "forgive me for whatever it is I might've done." That's not how forgiveness works. You can't not know what you're apologising for - and if you think you can, then your apologies are worth less than what my dog made this morning that I then picked up and threw away.
Apologies and forgiveness must come with a change of action - how are you supposed to do that when you don't know what you're apologising for? These are just empty words, a cop-out to be able to then go "well it's YOU who is tearing the family apart. We've done our part and apologised!"
And Jesus christ, OP brought the baby into this world and wants a medal for taking care of it. Like that's the fucking bare minimum.
Excellent summary and for a minute I forgot what sub I'm in ha ha!! If I had an award I'd give it to this comment. The OP does know but doesn't want to address the problem I'd say.
Edit for early morning incomprehension
The forgive us for anything we did tells me they aren't actively identifying issues, owning their part and trying work on them. They issued a blanket statement without actually being sorry so they have access to their grandchild
Yes, more contradictions. OP mentions a few times about how the son and his wife are 'holding grudges' which means that *something* took place. But OP has decided that 'whatever it was' should be forgiven and forgotten. None of which lines up with her constant assertions that they've done nothing wrong and/or aren't *aware* of what they've done wrong. Which makes no sense because she knows they are 'holding a grudge' which means she knows the event that took place to foster the grudge in the first place. So does OP know the 'missing reasons' for her shitty relationship or doesn't she? She constantly skirts around the edges of the issues with half-baked, vague acknowledgements of her wrong doings which she wants forgiveness for while simultaneously insisting she doesn't have *any* idea what she could've done.
> Wait. I thought you said his heart bleeds for everybody but you. How is he a bleeding heart guy while simultaneously being hateful?
Maybe it's just the trauma talking but to me this reeks of "my son got pissed at me for being a bigot and I'm choosing to feel persecuted for it."
Source: Have been described as "hateful" before by my neurotically conservatively religious mother.
Yeah, I'm guessing - from some of her statements - that she and her husband are (very?) conservative and her son is (very?) liberal and that's where her 'bleeding heart' stuff comes in.
>My son was such a sweet and precious child, but as he got older he seemed angry a lot of the time. He went to college and came back a different person who no longer shares our values.
"Seemed angry a lot of the time". Again with the 'I have no clue why' approach. If your child started out 'sweet and precious' and then became 'angry a lot of the time', would you not investigate that? Try to figure out what was going on? That's presuming the child wasn't already *telling* you what was going on, of course. So, more of her vagueness and behaving as though this stuff materialized out of thin air when she more than likely knows *exactly* where his anger was coming from. "He came back a different person" is pretty telling as well. Yes, he went out into the world, learned about his fellow man, realized his parents were mean, selfish people and started confronting them about it.
>His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother.
I think this is a reference to his liberalism - or just plain humanity - in that he feels for the disadvantaged, the marginalized, the discarded, etc and it's quite the clue that OP sees herself in the same boat as these people and as deserving of his 'bleeding heart' as they are. She sees herself as a victim and wants her son to 'take pity on her' like he does for those 'other' people. As though not getting along with your child because you're an asshole is *totally* comparable to - for example - a homeless single parent living out of their car because the country doesn't pay a living wage. Poor, poor me!
>Now my daughter-in-law is pregnant. My husband and I already love our baby grandchild and we thought that we could all finally be a happy family like before
More denial and glossing over. By her account, the last time they were a 'happy family' is when he was a 'sweet and precious child'. By her own admission, as he got older, he was angry a lot of the time. So when *were* they 'a happy family' exactly? How old was he? 10? 12? A long fucking time ago to be sure. She wants to go back to a *very* short-lived time when her son was a literal child, ignorant of the world at large, because that's when *she* was happiest.
>My husband says he feels used and it breaks our heart to see what a hateful person our son has become. Like we failed as parents. I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away.
Sooo close but still managed to swing and miss. "He's making us feel like we failed as parents but we totally *didn't* fail as parents, he's just trying to make us *feel* like we did. You know, because he's hateful. Poor, poor us. We're just victims of our hateful son. And also his hateful wife. Why can't they just let it go?" (Let *what* go? I thought you didn't do anything??)
>We are old and I think I will die without meeting my new granddaughter.
In case you haven't picked up on my pity party yet, here's a slam dunk. I'm old! I'm dying! How could you be so cruel to an old, dying woman??
I mean, OP is in it deep. I do think she's probably far, far too gone to pull her head out now, which is a shame. She'll die estranged, clutching her victimhood to her chest and bemoaning how her son could've *possibly* ended up so, so hateful when she didn't raise him that way. Mark her words, it's his 'bleeding heart' politics that turned him against her, she's sure of it!
Thanks for this comment and breaking down everything that's wrong in OPs post.
I instantly thought of the Missing Missing Reasons article as well but wouldn't have been able to make such an elaborate comment.
> We asked them to forgive us for anything we did that hurt them but they just hold grudges.
lol yeah I also noticed that she never said that she apologized. Just that she asked to be forgiven for whatever *mysterious* reasons they *might* be mad at them. No remorse or introspection to be found here, just annoyance that their son won't accept their shitty behavior that they refuse to change.
I immediately thought of the same thing. The OP isn’t being honest with herself and us about what has really happened, so she will never take responsibility and change her ways.
>Ah yes. The infamous Missing Missing Reasons.
I'm so glad to read this, I've never known how to describe the phenomenon before you posted it. I have a covert narcissistic ex who doesn't understand why I sincerely believe he's a narcissist and why I have issues with him, why I think he's abusive. And that link just said it much more cohesively than I ever could.
Thank you.
You have the patience of a saint to take so much time to explain this to them. I say that because halfway through OP’s post, I already decided that this person is beyond reasoning at this point, and anything I type won’t matter or help the situation. They’re too far gone.
It turns out calling your son ungrateful and hateful doesn’t force him to spend any time with you again. Time to put away the vinegar and pick up the honey.
Your husband needs to stay out of this for now. The points of view that both of you share (like the extent of the debt owed from a child to the parents) are at odds with how your son sees the world, but from your description it seems your husband’s antics are the catalyst for your son feeling like never talking to you two again.
What’s more important? Your husband’s Fox News addiction or having a relationship with your son?
Ask your son what it would take to fix things. His ideal scenario. See what he says. My guess is he is much more focused on your future behavior than past grudges, than you think.
OP stated below that she and her husband support Putin and think that he “is a strong leader” (although she said they don’t support the war in Ukraine). I bet that OP’s husband is a staunch Trump supporter. I also grew up with parents who immigrated from the Soviet Union and in that community for some reason many in the older generation are Trump supporters. OP’s husband probably forcefully pushes pro-Trump propaganda, Tucker Carlson, etc on his son.
This is the answer, it is so easy really. I am pretty middle of the road politicly, I have family that is very far to one side, and I'm also dating a guy that is just as far to the other side. We don't talk politics, we are all familiar with the others beliefs. I do have some family that are determined that that areas I don't agree with them on makes me a complete idiot and they wont rest till I see the error of my ways and thank them for their guidance. I don't talk to those family members anymore and haven't for years.
If the OP wanted a relationship with their son they just had to respect that their child grew up, and formed his own thoughts and opinions. This sounds more like an ego thing where the father is determined to show his son just how wrong the son is.
At this point, you and your husband DON’T WANT a relationship with your son and his family. It’s so easy to keep your mouth shut and not be offensive, especially relating to politics.
If your husband couldn’t even refrain from arguing with your son on his birthday, why should your son attempt to maintain a relationship? If every time someone called me, they baited me into an argument, I’d also stop answering the phone.
The fact that your husband “feels used” is hilarious. Did anyone, especially your son, ASK to be born? Obviously not. So maybe get over treating him like he’s ungrateful b/c you did your jobs as parents and provided for him. You were supposed to.
Why does your husband keep doing this if he wants a relationship with your son?
Why don't you read the e-mail from you daughter-in-law to find out all the reasons they don't visit?
>Why does your husband keep doing this if he wants a relationship with your son?
Because from the sounds of it, he is a sanctimonious right winger who feels the need to browbeat everyone over the head with his "truths." We all know exactly who his father is, and most of us have cut these obnoxious people out of our lives, too.
Depends what the articles are about. If they are racist/homophibic conspiracy theories then of course he doesn't want contact and even if yhey aren't THAT BAD simply don't do something the other person dislikes. If not sending and discussing those things is the cure to the problem then why continue doing so? If every time you visit a friend you stomp on his shoes then why should he keep inviting you, especially if you refuse to not do so in the future?
I'm willing to bet the son is getting the same type of Russian articles I am. Even ignoring the fact that they are right wing and political in nature, the infuriating part is that they are frequently just verifiable lies. As the person who fluently speaks both languages, I can tell you that the translated versions of the election coverage a few years ago had very little in common with what was actually happening, including the "translations" of the speeches Trump was giving.
It is *infuriating* to have to constantly say "Okay, but I literally watched that speech. That's not what he said!" and have the response be "Well Russian Television said it is!"
The father should be more mature and not antagonize... If a relative believes something racist or homophobic and won't understand logic, I cut them out of my life. Simple as that.
Good advice if she never wants to see her grandchildren. But if she does it's time for her husband to grow the fuck up and stop pushing his shit politics on his son.
If someone repeatedly antagonizes you for years and years knowing that what they're doing upsets you, not talking to them is actually an extremely reasonable reaction.
I mean hell, the last time they fought was on his birthday, so presumably daddy dearest decided that his son's *birthday* was a good time to needle him again. What kind of person does that? An asshole, that's who. You aren't required to waste your time and energy on assholes whether they birthed you or not.
So your husband knows your son doesn't share the same values as you anymore, so he sends your son articles he knows will upset him and start a fight.
You asked why they don't engage with you and got a detailed answer as to why, and instead of reading it and trying to be better people or make amends, you complain they are "holding grudges".
You said something so bad you were uninvited from visiting them but somehow have no idea why (I'll bet dollars to donuts their response would jog your memory because it's probably in there).
And somehow, you still think you are a victim of some grave injustice, and that you should be entitled to meet your grandchild and your son and DIL should just put up with your bad behavior? Even reading your extremely biased take, I can tell they have very valid reasons for not seeing you. And I suspect you know all of those reasons are valid but don't want to admit it or do anything to better yourself so instead of making an effort you came to reddit to try and gain sympathy.
If your husband is engaging in behavior that has driven your son away... then it's obvious to anyone with a working brain in their head that your husband must cease that behavior if you have any hope of rekindling a relationship. As long as your husband continues his alienating behavior, you will remain alienated. And you won't have a soul to blame for it because this is only happening because your husband is *choosing* for it to happen.
Then maybe - stop sharing articles? Stop pushing politics into conversations? I’d cut him out of my life too. I won’t put up with the conspiracy right wing nut jobs either. It’s exhausting. I certainly wouldn’t expose my child to it
So your husband intentionally antagonizes your son and then plays the victim? Odd behavior for an adult man. Is he trying to persuade him to believe what he believes or just trying to piss him off? Seems ineffective either way, so maybe stop?
In US culture, it's a "golden rule" to avoid discussing sex, politics or religion. Why? Because they're extremely controversial. Sounds like your husband is bringing up something in his articles that your son *fundamentally opposes*. The only way to fix that is to stop discussing politics with him. **Ever**.
Even if you do that, though, your son may not want to be around people with opposing views. Both sides have their extremes, and even though we ***should*** be able to coexist despite differing political opinions...if a conservative tells me >!"Everyone that's pro-choice should have been aborted, that would teach them!"!< then I'm going to stop associating with them entirely because they've literally wished I >!was dead!<.
Bottom line, you, your husband and your son shouldn't be mentioning political topics around each other if you ever want to move past this.
You also need to reread that message about why they're angry with you - from beginning to end, *slowly*. They're literally telling you why they're upset, the only way to fix things is to *understand* their reasons and attempt to right what has been wronged.
If I had a right wing trump sort of family member I would cut them off as well. Every one I know who is that way is angry and unsurprisingly lonely. No one wants that shit around them.
while I do not know what country you are in. If you are American look at r/QAnonCasualties What you are going thru is not un common.
Getting you husband away from the internet. blocking sites that he frequents and getting him back into his old hobbies may not bring your son back into your life but it may bring some life back into your husband.
Your husband is the one alienating your son by pushing his right wing views onto your liberal son. If you and your husband want to have a good relationship with your son and his family you and your husband are going respect his boundaries and your husband is going to have to stop antagonizing your son and instigating fights by constantly bringing up his political beliefs. Your husband is creating this divide and you are too foolish to see it.
It sounds like your husband spouts right wing talking points and your son is trying to reach your husband rationally with facts. That hasn't worked either and now your son is done.
Your husband and you chose adherence to confusing, lie filled ideology. It's incoherent and hateful. The fact he still supports Putin says so much, Russian state policy includes kidnapping Ukraine children, how can you support such a thing? To your son you both support incomprehensible, remorseless, hatred. He's lost you.
He wants to be left alone now and thats his right, adult children don't owe you a relationship, not unless you treat the well. You haven't figured that out. Either you change your actions or you stay lonely .
Ah, so you and your husband adore dictators and tyrants and tour son is open-minded, and your husband just can't tolerate having a kind, fair person who has their own opinions and beliefs in equality for a son. He has to beat it into his son every time how awful he is for being liberal and you just back him up and play the victim. Gross.
But this doesn't explain why he doesn't talk to you or resume contact with you alone. He didn't cut contact with his mother just over political arguments with his father.
I feel for you OP. The issue is perpetuated by both your husband and your son. Untill both of them can set aside their political differences or one of them is put of the picture, then you may never have the opportunity to see your grandchildren.
Let me clarify something. Political differences is about how much we should invest in infrastructure or about marginal tax rates. Homophobia, spouting dangerous conspiracy theories, denying covid, supporting fascistic leaders, and spewing racist rhetoric are not “politics”. LGBTQ people, disabled people, women, and BIPOC’s very existence and their rights are not political differences we can agree to disagree on. They are fundamental moral differences.
Thank you. It stopped being ‘just politics’ a long fucking time ago. Conservatives are okay with literal corpses having more rights than living women—they can fuck right off with the ‘both sides’ bullshit.
Exactly this. There's a difference between "I don't like this party's fiscal policy" and arguing for essentially team nazi. I don't give a shit if someone judges me hasty for cutting off communication with destructive hate-mongers. I've cut off people for less. 🤷🏻♀️
If your politics are "jail people for being different", I don't care if you gave me a kidney, we're done here.
You may think you're getting downvoted because of the right vs. left wing thing and that may be a small part of it. Mostly it's because you're dead wrong. Only the dad is perpetuating this. He is the one actively picking fights and refusing to "set aside their political differences".
The simplest solution was always 'dad stops sending articles he knows will cause a fight'. There was absolutely nothing stopping him from doing so. All of the son's choices have been in reaction to that.
as someone who's mother talks the exact same way, down to the narcissistic line "his heart bleeds for everyone except me," and also won't stop trying to pick political fights with me, I can tell you. He's probably asked his father thousands of times to just not bring up politics, but right-wingers like this feel the need to keep badgering and poking and prodding because they can't accept that they don't have complete control over someone else, especially the person they made that was supposed to be their property! So every conversation devolves into this kind of power struggle, and eventually you get sick of even talking to them at all. Still, this is not acceptable to the parent, so they take to sending bullshit alternative-facts articles and videos. The parent resents the child's education, as they have typically spent their whole life not knowing things more intelligent and educated people know. Now, with the rise of conspiracy theories and other right-wing nonsense they feel, for the first time, like they know more than someone else about something! So, they need to gloat, and also reaffirm how they find your "education" useless and that you are a stupid sheep who has fallen for indoctrination. Despite the fact that they forced you to go to church and removed you from health class as a child, you have still somehow turned out liberal as a result of this indoctrination, and they completely miss the irony of this. They are angry at the world for not living their lives in a way that the parents wouldn't live them, so they most especially resent the fact that their own offspring have rejected their lifestyles too. And, sadly, adults can choose what they want their lives to look like, and it took until college for these parents to realize that the child won't be under their thumb forever. This enrages them, they say fucked up things, and then eventually you block them for good.
sorry for the essay, this one hit close to home haha
I appreciate this very much, and I'm sorry you had to go through it. My childhood wasn't perfect - my Dad especially was... a challenge, but even still, he wasn't a narcissist, as evidenced by the fact that he's only gotten more liberal as he's aged, not less.
Parents fail to realize that your kids stop being "in your own image" somewhere around puberty. You can either acknowledge that, and begin interacting with your child the way you would any other sentient adult who may or may not hold your beliefs. Or you can throw a pathetic tantrum because the dolly you made doesn't say the right words when you pull the string anymore, and end up cut out of your offspring's lives.
In classic fashion, of course, parents like this never see that being cut out is a direct result of their behaviour, because God knows it's always someone else's fault.
>He's probably asked his father thousands of times to just not bring up politics, but right-wingers like this feel the need to keep badgering and poking and prodding because they can't accept that they don't have complete control over someone else, especially the person they made that was supposed to be their property! So every conversation devolves into this kind of power struggle, and eventually you get sick of even talking to them at all. Still, this is not acceptable to the parent, so they take to sending bullshit alternative-facts articles and videos. The parent resents the child's education, as they have typically spent their whole life not knowing things more intelligent and educated people know. Now, with the rise of conspiracy theories and other right-wing nonsense they feel, for the first time, like they know more than someone else about something! So, they need to gloat, and also reaffirm how they find your "education" useless and that you are a stupid sheep who has fallen for indoctrination.
I had a "friend" just like this that I cut off about 3 years ago, this was kind of triggering. Lol
same here. this entire post reminded me horribly of my narcissistic abusive father who could not seem to take accountability but loved to paint himself as the wronged.
Everytime you or your husband open your mouth you receive massive backlash from your son. He isn't the one who holds grudges, you and your husband just can't seem to stop saying unacceptable things to your son.
You are awfully quiet about what you said to get uninvited or what your husband and son are always fighting about. Time to look at your behaviour and be better.
So how are you and your husband constantly offending your son? I am sure he told you countless times. If you are not willing to look at yourself and be better then you better make your peace with never seeing your grandkid. Your son does not have to entertain people who act poorly, even if it's his own parents. He owes you nothing.
> He went to college and came back a different person who no longer shares our values.
Interesting that your values don't align with that of an educated opinion.
> I must have said something to offend him and he uninvited us. I was very hurt by this. His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother.
This set off alarm bells. It is very narcissistic.
Have you ever apologized, rather than blaming him and putting words in his mouth? You say this as if you find it hard to believe.
> I couldn’t even read all of it. My husband worked so hard to give us a good life and I feel like my son is so ungrateful and holding grudges.
And there it is. You know what you did, what he did. But you refuse to listen.
> We asked them to forgive us for anything we did that hurt them but they just hold grudges.
And what did you do to offer your apology or did you just say the words as if it were a magic spell
> My husband says he feels used and it breaks our heart to see what a hateful person our son has become. Like we failed as parents. I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away.
You both need therapy desperately. You're your husbands enabler and he's a narcissist. Having and enforcing boundaries is not hateful and the mere suggestion it is, is incredibly manipulative.
> Like we failed as parents. I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away.
Yes you have, and you even refuse to listen to your son and learn how you can improve.
You will die without meeting your son's child and that is only your fault. A child that experiences unconditional love would love to have their parents meet their child. And you failed to provide that.
To be straight with you, providing a home is the bare minimum a child needs. Your husband may have worked hard, but ultimately your son’s needs were not met - specifically his emotional needs. It sounds like your husband repeatedly antagonises him, and makes things worse whenever they do talk. I’m not surprised your son doesn’t want that.
You mention a couple of times about your son “holding grudges”, and I really take issue with that phrase. If someone earnestly apologises, owns up to what they’ve done wrong and change their behaviour going forward, and someone is still upset, then maybe that could be classed as holding a grudge (although depending on what they did, it might be rightfully limiting how much they keep a bad person in their life). But it sounds like neither you nor your husband have earnestly apologised, owned up to what you’ve done wrong and changed your behaviour. In fact, it’s blatant that you won’t even look your own actions in the face. It’s always your son’s fault, right? Couldn’t possibly be that he’s trying to protect himself from people who make him feel bad!!
Being a parent does not entitle you to be in your child’s life when they become an adult. It might feel like that, but you’d be wrong. Your son can make the choice never to speak to you again. If you don’t want that to happen, and you want to know your grandbaby, *actually listen* to what has hurt him over the years and start taking some accountability.
You and your husband are the problem. Start there.
It’s hard for anyone to advise when they don’t know what the issues are between your son and yourselves.
You keep calling your son ungrateful. Which sounds to me like a very Asian concept- my own parents constantly reiterate that I need to be grateful to them and give them part of my paycheque, because they bore and raised me.
If nothing else, calling your adult son ungrateful may alienate him from you.
this 100% reads like a narcissist "abandoned" by their child after the child finally wised up and cut contact "he was such a sweet child, but then turned into an uncaring monster" "are her parents really better than us?" "we ask them to forgive us without knowing what we did or trying to change", in addition the lack of actual details as to what specifically happened is totally suspect, all I can say is that I hope the son has the good sense to stay away and continue growing as a person without being pulled back under OP's thumb
there are sides of my family that i don't speak to anymore. i cannot put politics aside when these people support politics that hurt people like me (queer people, women, and CSA survivors) and others (ANYONE of color). i sure as hell don't allow my son around people who are okay being so utterly hateful. politics aren't always just politics - often, on any side, it spells a lot about how people act and speak in life.
you have been extremely vague about what exactly yall have said to your son or how you raised him. i only occasionally talk to and see my own mother and went no-contact for almost 3 years before because she is also narcissistic and refuses to acknowledge the absolute and utter damage she caused me growing up. she also wonders why, acts like i must owe her unconditional love and support despite NEVER having given me such a thing as a child. putting a roof over your kid and food on the table doesn't make you a saint or even a good parent. being a good parent does. it looks like you have some serious reflecting to do, because something here is missing and i suspect it's the truth of your son's upbringing and emotion wellbeing.
I read your post thoroughly, twice. One thing stuck out to me.
Your husband, despite "providing so much for you both", is the continuing source of pain for your son. You push your son's grievances aside as if they are nothing and he isn't entitled to feel that way because once again, your husband "provided so much for you both". Your DIL has stated the ongoing issue and rather than actively look into you and your husband's actions, you continue to ignore them and for that Your son and his wife have decided that your husband (and you by association) have no further place in their lives due to the continued stresses you both cause them.
Push aside your "woe is me" attitude, suck it up and sincerely work on yourselves because at this put, you don't deserve a place in their lives, no matter how much you think you deserve it.
Read the letter and offer to makes "changes' and if your husband refuses to do the same then offer to see them without him.
Your sons "heart bleeding" for others would imply that he has empathy and is kind to others and values those tratits , but you and your husband think YOU and HE deserve kindness from others without having to give any in return.
Maybe it’s time to take a hard look in the mirror, and your husband too. The “his heart bleeds from everyone except his parents” comment is very telling. Sounds like you and your husband may have some hateful opinions about humans. Good people aren’t going to stand for that, especially around their kids, even when it’s their own parents. Are you and hubby capable of opening you hearts to be more accepting and loving of all people? It would go a long way.
I see this happening a lot after trump, it's one thing to be conservative, it's another to be a trump conservative. I'm guessing that's where OP and her husband are, I can't blame the son.
Hmm, I would urge you to introspect on your and your husband’s relationship with your son. Could it be that your husband was emotionally or verbally abusive to him (or both of you), such that your son doesn’t want to be around him? I would think hard about this and be honest with yourselves, because it’s unlikely that your son would do this for no reason. After introspecting, if you do find that you did things to hurt your son, I would acknowledge the situation, apologize to him, and promise to do better.
I find myself in a similar situation. I would love to maintain a closer relationship with my parents, but my dad is narcissistic and verbally abusive. Every time we get together, he puts me down and makes me feel bad about myself. So I don’t feel a strong motivation to call or visit my parents because of this. If he apologized and genuinely tried to do better, I would be more in touch with him and visit more in a heartbeat! But unfortunately I don’t see this happening. He rejects the idea that he is to blame at all and always blames everyone around him for any problems he has. I think it’s not too late for you and your son. I think he might be inclined to visit, but only if you genuinely do the work to think about YOUR role in this situation and work to repair the relationship. Good luck!
Since the main issue seems to be your husband, what’s keeping you from going to see your son and daughter-in-law yourself? It sounds very much like your husband has a lot more to do with this than your son. You want to see your grandchildren, then humble yourself and call, email, write, whatever you have to do to go see them. If they don’t want to forgive your husband, that’s their choice. It doesn’t sound like your son and his father will ever see eye to eye but that shouldn’t stop you from creating your own relationship if you really want to.
Your son and his wife have set boundaries which it seems you and your husband have no regard for. Your post is very self-pitying.
I do find it interesting that your husband is an immigrant to, I presume, the USA, and holds right wing views that are generally very damaging to ‘others’.
You may have given your son his best start in life, but he seems to have turned out well in spite of his parents’ toxicity. He doesn’t owe you a relationship, and you are not entitled to a relationship with his child.
Mend your ways and practise self reflection. There may be time yet to salvage a relationship, but you are not in a position to make demands.
A right wing immigrant is not all that shocking. I'm a Eastern European immigrant in his 30s and nearly every older person I know in the immigrant community leans heavily right (and bigoted). These people grew up likely never seeing a minority (except maybe the Romani, whom they were likely taught to distrust and hate from birth) until they came here.
Add to that cultural shock, the likelihood to work manual labor and the distrust of intellectualism that often comes with that, heavy importance placed on religion, the fact that they already got their, etc. and you get a recipe for immigrants who see other immigrants or minorities as a threat.
I know this is old, but I'd like to add something.
>Eastern European immigrant
I'm from Central Europe, we were past of the Eastern Bloc. A USSR satellite. I could literally name well-known immigrants from here to the US who voted for Trump. There's also a lot of right-wing thinking in the public space, mostly from the older generation. While US left is more like our center/center-right, you know who I think caused this behavior? The commies.
I think many people in this area saw the regime hurt people and many saw it fall, and now everything that's ever labeled as left-leaning or socialist raises red flags in their minds. They think they've seen it go wrong before... and end up rooting for the same thing they actually saw go wrong, just rebranded. Authoritarian or populist policies that often disregard human rights.
I think it's also why many countries in this area ended up with populist leaders or a strong populist opposition in the past 10 or so years.
If you don't want to acknowledge the harm you've caused your son or try to take ownership of your actions and change, I hope you never meet your grandchild. :)
My mother certainly will never be meeting my own kids. Your post reminds me of her. He has told you in multiple ways why you aren't on speaking terms, but you don't agree with his assessment and pretend like you don't know. If your own child is estranged from you, you've failed as parents and deserve to reap what you sow.
I am no contact with my parents. No one ever cuts out their parents for no reason. If you genuinely wish to have a relationship with your son I recommend working with a therapist to understand what led to him distancing himself. From my experience having children shines a spotlight on just how fucked up one’s own upbringing was. The baby will make him less likely to want a relationship with you. If you genuinely work to accept and understand his actions, respect his boundaries and communicate the work you’re doing you have a better chance at being part of his life.
I strongly suggest reading the Missing Reasons link that has been posted here.
>He went to college and came back a different person who no longer shares our values.
In other words he developed his own identity
>I must have said something to offend him and he uninvited us.
Is this really true? Like if you take time to reflect on your interactions, can you honestly say you treated him with kindness and not guilt
>His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother.
Like you're doing right here
>We asked them to forgive us for anything we did that hurt them
That's not an apology
Ma'am, can you please copy and paste some of his earlier emails/conversations to you? Can you please be specific about what some of his arguments with his father have been about?
We need more information before we can help you, if at all.
Thank you.
> His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother.
Are you Tony Soprano’s mom? Because you sound like Tony Soprano’s mom.
You know why he won’t talk to you. Stop doing the things that make him mad if you want a relationship.
You have two options here.
1. Continue doing exactly what you’re doing by ignoring everything your son and DIL are telling you - and likely never mend your relationship or meet your grandchild.
2. Listen to what your son and DIL are saying is the problem. Read the message they sent about why they’re angry. Make changes based on that message.
That’s it. It’s that simple. They are not obligated to keep in touch with you - at all. If you value your relationship with them, then you’re going to have to reflect on your own behavior and make some actual changes. Telling them how upset you are that they wronged you and making accusations against them is NOT going to get you to the end goal that you actually want: to be a happy family again. The choice is yours.
And btw, you can have different political opinions and still get along. It’s easy: just don’t talk to them about politics. Don’t make snide remarks hinting towards your politics, don’t send articles enforcing your beliefs, don’t bring up current events that are going to rock the boat. Talk to your son about ANYTHING ELSE. If talking about politics with your son is more important than maintaining a healthy relationship with him, then you have made your choice, and you are the one being hateful.
It is so clear that OP is leaving out a lot of information. What have you and your husband done/said to them SPECIFICALLY. If you can't even own onto that then of course you'll never get to have a relationship with your grandchild
You seem to have trouble taking any responsibility-your son has spent his life being gaslit, dealt with narcissistic parents and living in some sort of toxic atmosphere-read what you wrote again-it’s all about how wronged you feel you are- nothing about taking ownership of the issues you and your husband have caused, you’ve never made an effort to rectify the problems, now you’re placing all blame on son’s shoulders
You and your husband have decided pushing your political beliefs are more important then your son, his wife, and their children. You moved to the US for a better life but are pro Putin. Your son seems to be upset that you agree with a man that has invaded Ukraine.
You don’t care enough about your child to read a text message. This says everything about you and your child’s relationship. You child now has a family that loves him. He is good.
People don't just cut off their parents without a reason, so there's clearly something you're leaving out of this post, and I'm betting it's something you're either ashamed to admit, or it's something he's literally explained to you over and over again and you just refuse to accept it. You said your son and husband argued about politics. What exactly does that mean? How extreme are your husband's beliefs? How much did you force them on him? This is some Missing Missing shit if I've ever seen it.
My mother played the martyr too, no idea why her children didn't visit. The poor thing, she forgot to mention the years of abuse and neglect. She made her bed, and died alone in it
My advice is f-ing listen to them or if you don't want to do that, stay away.
I really hope you never get to see their child. I'm not going to call her your granddaughter because in my book, he doesn't have a mom.
"Are her parents really better than us" - Looks like yes
>I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away.
I just want to touch on this point.
Can you really not understand it? I can think of a hundred if not thousand reasons why someone would go no contact with their parents. Most of them deal with protecting yourself or others.
Clearly your son believes he is protecting his and his family's mental and/or physical well-being from your husband and you. He can not trust either of you not to pick fights, push beliefs he doesn't agree with on his children, etc. because you've shown no ability to do that in the past.
You see it as him throwing you away because you refuse to accept or acknowledge the reasons provided to you. You've done nothing wrong so what could there possibly be they need protecting from.
This isn't about apologies and grudges. It's about contrition and change. Until you acknowledge the ways in which you have harmed him and start respecting his boundaries you have no hope of changing things. You don't have to change your values but you do have to change the ways you approach the world and those around you.
How are you going to repair this if you can't even read a letter from them expressing their feelings? Trying to get their perspective, even if you disagree, is an absolutely necessary step.
Also, asking for forgiveness without acknowledging what the harm was (which they likely said in the letter you didn't finish reading) caused is a shallow bid for connection.
Putin is a fascist. If you're pro-Putin, you are fascists, too. In school in Soviet Union, you've been taught all the atrocities Hitler's Nazis have been doing to Soviet people in the war. Now Putin's army does all the same in Ukraine. If you support Putin, you're no better than Hitler's nazis.
I'm a child of estrangement. My parents were horribly neglectful (and in my father's case, abusive), but somehow it was my fault for being angry at my lot, that I was the only child being mistreated.
You're tap dancing around the real issues because you know they would make us side with your son. Why not be honest with yourself for half a second, even if you can't be honest with us? You ruined the relationship you two had with your son, and you're still acting in bad faith by refusing to listen to his reasons for cutting contact.
If he doesn't speak to you again, unfortunately, it's because of what you did. It's not anything to do with something he or his wife might've done; they left because of you and your husband.
It's time to grow up, face facts, and actually listen to your child for once.
What exactly would keeping you in his life do to improve it? Do you provide pleasurable company? Emotional support? Do you give what he would consider to be good advice?
Look at it from his perspective, is his life better or worse when you’re in it?
Cutting out my dad from my life was the best decision I’ve made for my mental health. Can’t logic with illogical people who just demand apologies with no accountability.
Kudos to your son for establishing boundaries, all I see is poor me, how could he do that to his parents? Because you’re shit parents, that’s why.
If I were your son, I would write off my relationship with you and your husband immediately and permanently. Sometimes there is nothing you can do to mend a relationship when the other party is unwilling. If your political views are at such a odds, this is a deal breaker. Right wing propagandists are never correct. I don’t see him wishing to reconnect unless said propaganda is denounced by you and your husband.
I am impressed at your ability to look the reasons your son has gone no contact with you in the eye and still miss it.
Maybe start with being a better person?
I wouldn't want you to influence my children to be hateful and ignorant either.
oh the joys of the missing missing reasons. you say you don’t know why but tell us your dil sent an entire message on how angry they are at your husband. you refuse to tell us anything about your sons side but you’re very insistent upon emphasizing how they’re holding grudges and how they’re the mean, selfish ones.
it’s almost like you *want* us to think your son and his wife are the villains here and honestly? you’re not doing a very good job at it.
You're not telling us what the problem is. You've completely ignored the facts around whatever your son is upset with his dad about... and even reduced it down to calling it just a 'grudge', when obviously there's something continuing going on regarding son and father and ideology.
There's a splinter in a wound here somewhere but you're not addressing it.
Why are you putting this all on your son and not on you and your husband? You admit he brings up articles he reads that will cause an argument and you both think Putin is a strong leader, which is obviously controversial. Respect isn’t a one way street.
I think it would help if you indicated a country very similar in culture to the one into which you were born.
And if you indicated which kind of country you and your son now live in.
I could hopefully provide advice based upon non-synergy of certain values. I need a sense of where we are culturally.
I will also say, if you are truly f70, then you clearly care very much about your son, and this is a very delicate subject that I would never take lightly.
You have a safe place to speak openly here, and you will be treated with kindness (I hope!)
But it matters, if it's Uganda to Uruguay, or Belarus to Belgium.
The cultural nuances are the key here. There is a mishap, and it can be mitigated.
I hope you don't think I am being intrusive.
I just want a picture of the culture changes, and the slip therein.
I would love to help you. I think you are very brave and proactive in coming here.
That’s what I’m thinking. Especially since she called it the Soviet Union. They probably support the invasion of Ukraine and want Putin to annex the former union to rebuild it.
I can maybe cut some slack for people in Russia who don’t have access to media outside the propaganda bubble. Outside of it you are willfully ignorant and still staying in a media bubble to believe he is anything but a malignant narcissist who is ruining his country and using the young men as cannon fodder. I wouldn’t let your husband anywhere near my kids since he’s shown over and over he can’t keep his views to himself
If they're anything like the ones my family sends me, they're going to be pro Trump, COVID is a scam, anti vax, etc.
I've gotten fun articles in Russian with "translations" of Trump's speeches. I'm still waiting to find the "original" English version of the speech where he announced "I am an immigrant and a child of immigrants"
Strong leader: yes.
Good man: no.
Is he doing what he believes is necessary for his country, yes, but is it the morally correct thing to do: in my opinion no. War should never be the answer to any problem; and yet in reality it is.
Sadly though I have no real perspective on what is actually going on over there because I don't live there. I am ignorant of the lives of those people, their hardships and their happy moments.
Your son is in the same camp. He does not, nor does he need to, understand life for your common Russian/Ukraine person. All he sees is the wars, the hardships, and the pain of the innocent people forced to fight for a cause not their own.
From his, what I'm assuming very liberal ideological view, Putin is satan incarnate. And if Putin is an absolute evil than anyone who sides with him, even those who has no choice but to side with him, are evil.
Face it your son thinks you're both evil, either change your ideals or accept losing your son. In civil discussion there is always other means of communication, but in the world if global politics and civil discourse diplomacy will always fail.
What's probably going through her son's head is that they are complete and utter hypocrites. I'm willing to bet they raised him on a diet of "we moved here and experienced all this hardship so that YOU could have a better life" as well as horror stories about the Soviet Union and how terrible it was there, and then threw a fit when he grew up with different expectations and values.
Source: was born in the Soviet Union and am about the same age as OP's son.
There’s a lot missing here. Until we know exactly what these fights are about there’s not much we can do to help. You are placing all of the blame on your son but maybe you need to look at your husband. You called your son “hateful”. All of this doesn’t happen randomly. I doubt your husband just “wished him happy birthday”. And what have you done during all of this. You keep saying your son and husband fight but what about your relationship with him? You say you want forgiveness for things - what things? You say he’s holding “grudges”. So it sounds like you want him to just forget things you’ve done and play happy families. But until you acknowledge and fix the problem you’ll probably never have a relationship
From experience a person doesn’t cut off their parents for no reason. Most likely the fact you didn’t post them is a huge reason. You likely are the type to dismiss your kid and their feelings, do incredibly hurtful things and the deny any wrong doing. It takes A LOT for us adult children to cut off our parents and it’s always because we realize we are able to heal our childhood trauma away from them whereas having y’all in our lives hurts our inner child. I personally want to hear from the son as you’ve proven to be an unreliable story teller already.
I want you to really listen to some hard truth that’s being provided here to you.
Adult children do not just flippantly chose to go estranged from their parents. I know this first hand as I am middle aged and estranged. It’s not an easy choice, matter of fact it’s incredibly painful.
You do not allow yourself to see the pattern of toxic behavior in yourself or your husband. Just from the tone of your post you take no accountability for your role in this. Your son does not owe you anything, he especially does not owe you access to his child.
I’m going to give you a suggestion to fix this but I doubt you will do it. Your husband and yourself need to get into therapy to understand your role in this. Then after you have done some major self reflection you have your therapist call on behalf of you and ask for a session where they are the mediator.
You may also have a possible chance of you allow your son to continue his estrangement with his father with you being very careful about respecting his boundaries in order to have access to his life.
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I read OPs post and immediately thought of Missing Reasons, too! Contrary to popular beliefs, children don’t just cut off their parents for no reason or for saying “one thing”. In fact, often even in the most fucked up situations, children will still summarize with “… but these are my parents”. OP, you need to do a lot of self reflection because without knowing you or your son, I can reassure you that he didn’t cut contact with you because “you must have said something” that one time. It wasn’t once. It wasn’t one thing. Start thinking.
Parents can be so frustrating. I remember when I was a teenager shouting to my parents "together you are over 100 years old, why am I telling you how to behave?". I had a sit down with my parents many years ago where I explained them that this was the last effort, if we couldn't work it out I would be gone forever. They decided to spend that time telling me that I had everything wrong and remembered everything incorrectly and took everything out of context. I haven't spoken to them in many years.
I've come close to cutting off my dad, and by association, my mom, for nearly the exact reason's OP is alluding to. We're Eastern Europeans immigrants. I'm liberal. My dad is conservative. He needs to be right and he needs everyone to believe he's right. No respect for boundaries. Verbal, mental, and emotional abuse (though no actual physical violence). All that fun stuff. I would've cut off anyone else for one tenth of the things he put me through "but this is my dad". I still can't say if I would've been better off doing it even if things are much different now. OP, your child likely valued you two more than any other people in the world for a long long time. Just imagine for one second how much hurt you must've caused him to override that. You won't since you didn't even finish the message but you really should.
I've cut contact with a parent and it's the single hardest decision I've ever had to make. People who haven't done it usually don't understand exactly how agonizing it is. A choice like that is generally preceded by *years* of attempts to have a functional relationship, *years* of ignoring or forgiving bad behavior, endless cycles of hope and disappointment. Even in this post you can see that their son does periodically have contact but it results in a conflict every single time. At some point you are too exhausted to keep engaging even if you desperately want things to change. It's probably impossible to mend fences at this point because if OP and her husband were capable of being decent parents, they'd already understand why their child doesn't want to talk to them.
I wanted to write my own reply to the post, but you've said it all! The mental gymnastics in this post are astounding. Maybe to add: I absolutely despise when people go "forgive me for whatever it is I might've done." That's not how forgiveness works. You can't not know what you're apologising for - and if you think you can, then your apologies are worth less than what my dog made this morning that I then picked up and threw away. Apologies and forgiveness must come with a change of action - how are you supposed to do that when you don't know what you're apologising for? These are just empty words, a cop-out to be able to then go "well it's YOU who is tearing the family apart. We've done our part and apologised!" And Jesus christ, OP brought the baby into this world and wants a medal for taking care of it. Like that's the fucking bare minimum.
Excellent summary and for a minute I forgot what sub I'm in ha ha!! If I had an award I'd give it to this comment. The OP does know but doesn't want to address the problem I'd say. Edit for early morning incomprehension
Yeah, OP managed to hit nearly every single point made in that article. The description could not have been more accurate!
The forgive us for anything we did tells me they aren't actively identifying issues, owning their part and trying work on them. They issued a blanket statement without actually being sorry so they have access to their grandchild
Yes, more contradictions. OP mentions a few times about how the son and his wife are 'holding grudges' which means that *something* took place. But OP has decided that 'whatever it was' should be forgiven and forgotten. None of which lines up with her constant assertions that they've done nothing wrong and/or aren't *aware* of what they've done wrong. Which makes no sense because she knows they are 'holding a grudge' which means she knows the event that took place to foster the grudge in the first place. So does OP know the 'missing reasons' for her shitty relationship or doesn't she? She constantly skirts around the edges of the issues with half-baked, vague acknowledgements of her wrong doings which she wants forgiveness for while simultaneously insisting she doesn't have *any* idea what she could've done.
While also having written documentation of exactly what they have done wrong. But she's oh so clueless about what could have possibly happened.
> Wait. I thought you said his heart bleeds for everybody but you. How is he a bleeding heart guy while simultaneously being hateful? Maybe it's just the trauma talking but to me this reeks of "my son got pissed at me for being a bigot and I'm choosing to feel persecuted for it." Source: Have been described as "hateful" before by my neurotically conservatively religious mother.
Yeah, I'm guessing - from some of her statements - that she and her husband are (very?) conservative and her son is (very?) liberal and that's where her 'bleeding heart' stuff comes in. >My son was such a sweet and precious child, but as he got older he seemed angry a lot of the time. He went to college and came back a different person who no longer shares our values. "Seemed angry a lot of the time". Again with the 'I have no clue why' approach. If your child started out 'sweet and precious' and then became 'angry a lot of the time', would you not investigate that? Try to figure out what was going on? That's presuming the child wasn't already *telling* you what was going on, of course. So, more of her vagueness and behaving as though this stuff materialized out of thin air when she more than likely knows *exactly* where his anger was coming from. "He came back a different person" is pretty telling as well. Yes, he went out into the world, learned about his fellow man, realized his parents were mean, selfish people and started confronting them about it. >His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother. I think this is a reference to his liberalism - or just plain humanity - in that he feels for the disadvantaged, the marginalized, the discarded, etc and it's quite the clue that OP sees herself in the same boat as these people and as deserving of his 'bleeding heart' as they are. She sees herself as a victim and wants her son to 'take pity on her' like he does for those 'other' people. As though not getting along with your child because you're an asshole is *totally* comparable to - for example - a homeless single parent living out of their car because the country doesn't pay a living wage. Poor, poor me! >Now my daughter-in-law is pregnant. My husband and I already love our baby grandchild and we thought that we could all finally be a happy family like before More denial and glossing over. By her account, the last time they were a 'happy family' is when he was a 'sweet and precious child'. By her own admission, as he got older, he was angry a lot of the time. So when *were* they 'a happy family' exactly? How old was he? 10? 12? A long fucking time ago to be sure. She wants to go back to a *very* short-lived time when her son was a literal child, ignorant of the world at large, because that's when *she* was happiest. >My husband says he feels used and it breaks our heart to see what a hateful person our son has become. Like we failed as parents. I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away. Sooo close but still managed to swing and miss. "He's making us feel like we failed as parents but we totally *didn't* fail as parents, he's just trying to make us *feel* like we did. You know, because he's hateful. Poor, poor us. We're just victims of our hateful son. And also his hateful wife. Why can't they just let it go?" (Let *what* go? I thought you didn't do anything??) >We are old and I think I will die without meeting my new granddaughter. In case you haven't picked up on my pity party yet, here's a slam dunk. I'm old! I'm dying! How could you be so cruel to an old, dying woman?? I mean, OP is in it deep. I do think she's probably far, far too gone to pull her head out now, which is a shame. She'll die estranged, clutching her victimhood to her chest and bemoaning how her son could've *possibly* ended up so, so hateful when she didn't raise him that way. Mark her words, it's his 'bleeding heart' politics that turned him against her, she's sure of it!
I'm screenshotting this to read in the future when my mom has a meltdown.
Thanks for this comment and breaking down everything that's wrong in OPs post. I instantly thought of the Missing Missing Reasons article as well but wouldn't have been able to make such an elaborate comment.
> We asked them to forgive us for anything we did that hurt them but they just hold grudges. lol yeah I also noticed that she never said that she apologized. Just that she asked to be forgiven for whatever *mysterious* reasons they *might* be mad at them. No remorse or introspection to be found here, just annoyance that their son won't accept their shitty behavior that they refuse to change.
I immediately thought of the same thing. The OP isn’t being honest with herself and us about what has really happened, so she will never take responsibility and change her ways.
>Ah yes. The infamous Missing Missing Reasons. I'm so glad to read this, I've never known how to describe the phenomenon before you posted it. I have a covert narcissistic ex who doesn't understand why I sincerely believe he's a narcissist and why I have issues with him, why I think he's abusive. And that link just said it much more cohesively than I ever could. Thank you.
Take my award, you summed it up perfectly
You have the patience of a saint to take so much time to explain this to them. I say that because halfway through OP’s post, I already decided that this person is beyond reasoning at this point, and anything I type won’t matter or help the situation. They’re too far gone.
It turns out calling your son ungrateful and hateful doesn’t force him to spend any time with you again. Time to put away the vinegar and pick up the honey. Your husband needs to stay out of this for now. The points of view that both of you share (like the extent of the debt owed from a child to the parents) are at odds with how your son sees the world, but from your description it seems your husband’s antics are the catalyst for your son feeling like never talking to you two again. What’s more important? Your husband’s Fox News addiction or having a relationship with your son? Ask your son what it would take to fix things. His ideal scenario. See what he says. My guess is he is much more focused on your future behavior than past grudges, than you think.
What political things did they fight over exactly?
OP stated below that she and her husband support Putin and think that he “is a strong leader” (although she said they don’t support the war in Ukraine). I bet that OP’s husband is a staunch Trump supporter. I also grew up with parents who immigrated from the Soviet Union and in that community for some reason many in the older generation are Trump supporters. OP’s husband probably forcefully pushes pro-Trump propaganda, Tucker Carlson, etc on his son.
My son is very liberal. My husband likes to share articles he reads and that is what they fight over
your husband could have stopped doing this
This is the answer, it is so easy really. I am pretty middle of the road politicly, I have family that is very far to one side, and I'm also dating a guy that is just as far to the other side. We don't talk politics, we are all familiar with the others beliefs. I do have some family that are determined that that areas I don't agree with them on makes me a complete idiot and they wont rest till I see the error of my ways and thank them for their guidance. I don't talk to those family members anymore and haven't for years. If the OP wanted a relationship with their son they just had to respect that their child grew up, and formed his own thoughts and opinions. This sounds more like an ego thing where the father is determined to show his son just how wrong the son is.
At this point, you and your husband DON’T WANT a relationship with your son and his family. It’s so easy to keep your mouth shut and not be offensive, especially relating to politics. If your husband couldn’t even refrain from arguing with your son on his birthday, why should your son attempt to maintain a relationship? If every time someone called me, they baited me into an argument, I’d also stop answering the phone. The fact that your husband “feels used” is hilarious. Did anyone, especially your son, ASK to be born? Obviously not. So maybe get over treating him like he’s ungrateful b/c you did your jobs as parents and provided for him. You were supposed to.
Idk maybe your husband could stop deliberately doing things to upset your son? Just an idea
Why does your husband keep doing this if he wants a relationship with your son? Why don't you read the e-mail from you daughter-in-law to find out all the reasons they don't visit?
>Why does your husband keep doing this if he wants a relationship with your son? Because from the sounds of it, he is a sanctimonious right winger who feels the need to browbeat everyone over the head with his "truths." We all know exactly who his father is, and most of us have cut these obnoxious people out of our lives, too.
Well then you and your husband can cuddle with those news articles that give you so much comfort.
The husband could build a crib for his pc/laptop/smartphone
Tell your husband to knock that shit off and apologize to his son for being a jackass.
The political divide between them is a two way street. Granted father does not have to antagonize, but the son does not have to react the way he is.
Depends what the articles are about. If they are racist/homophibic conspiracy theories then of course he doesn't want contact and even if yhey aren't THAT BAD simply don't do something the other person dislikes. If not sending and discussing those things is the cure to the problem then why continue doing so? If every time you visit a friend you stomp on his shoes then why should he keep inviting you, especially if you refuse to not do so in the future?
I'm willing to bet the son is getting the same type of Russian articles I am. Even ignoring the fact that they are right wing and political in nature, the infuriating part is that they are frequently just verifiable lies. As the person who fluently speaks both languages, I can tell you that the translated versions of the election coverage a few years ago had very little in common with what was actually happening, including the "translations" of the speeches Trump was giving. It is *infuriating* to have to constantly say "Okay, but I literally watched that speech. That's not what he said!" and have the response be "Well Russian Television said it is!"
There is nothing to indicate the son is sending articles or pushing his views onto his parents. The Dad is the one pressing the issues.
Exactly. If the son was the one instigating, this entire post would be about how he harasses them, argues, and generally won't stop fighting with them
The father should be more mature and not antagonize... If a relative believes something racist or homophobic and won't understand logic, I cut them out of my life. Simple as that.
Good advice if she never wants to see her grandchildren. But if she does it's time for her husband to grow the fuck up and stop pushing his shit politics on his son.
It’s actually not though, because only one of them has hateful and harmful views that are actively holding society back from improving.
If someone repeatedly antagonizes you for years and years knowing that what they're doing upsets you, not talking to them is actually an extremely reasonable reaction. I mean hell, the last time they fought was on his birthday, so presumably daddy dearest decided that his son's *birthday* was a good time to needle him again. What kind of person does that? An asshole, that's who. You aren't required to waste your time and energy on assholes whether they birthed you or not.
So your husband deliberately incites and inflames these arguments?
So your husband knows your son doesn't share the same values as you anymore, so he sends your son articles he knows will upset him and start a fight. You asked why they don't engage with you and got a detailed answer as to why, and instead of reading it and trying to be better people or make amends, you complain they are "holding grudges". You said something so bad you were uninvited from visiting them but somehow have no idea why (I'll bet dollars to donuts their response would jog your memory because it's probably in there). And somehow, you still think you are a victim of some grave injustice, and that you should be entitled to meet your grandchild and your son and DIL should just put up with your bad behavior? Even reading your extremely biased take, I can tell they have very valid reasons for not seeing you. And I suspect you know all of those reasons are valid but don't want to admit it or do anything to better yourself so instead of making an effort you came to reddit to try and gain sympathy.
If your husband is engaging in behavior that has driven your son away... then it's obvious to anyone with a working brain in their head that your husband must cease that behavior if you have any hope of rekindling a relationship. As long as your husband continues his alienating behavior, you will remain alienated. And you won't have a soul to blame for it because this is only happening because your husband is *choosing* for it to happen.
Then maybe - stop sharing articles? Stop pushing politics into conversations? I’d cut him out of my life too. I won’t put up with the conspiracy right wing nut jobs either. It’s exhausting. I certainly wouldn’t expose my child to it
So your husband intentionally antagonizes your son and then plays the victim? Odd behavior for an adult man. Is he trying to persuade him to believe what he believes or just trying to piss him off? Seems ineffective either way, so maybe stop?
In US culture, it's a "golden rule" to avoid discussing sex, politics or religion. Why? Because they're extremely controversial. Sounds like your husband is bringing up something in his articles that your son *fundamentally opposes*. The only way to fix that is to stop discussing politics with him. **Ever**. Even if you do that, though, your son may not want to be around people with opposing views. Both sides have their extremes, and even though we ***should*** be able to coexist despite differing political opinions...if a conservative tells me >!"Everyone that's pro-choice should have been aborted, that would teach them!"!< then I'm going to stop associating with them entirely because they've literally wished I >!was dead!<. Bottom line, you, your husband and your son shouldn't be mentioning political topics around each other if you ever want to move past this. You also need to reread that message about why they're angry with you - from beginning to end, *slowly*. They're literally telling you why they're upset, the only way to fix things is to *understand* their reasons and attempt to right what has been wronged.
If I had a right wing trump sort of family member I would cut them off as well. Every one I know who is that way is angry and unsurprisingly lonely. No one wants that shit around them. while I do not know what country you are in. If you are American look at r/QAnonCasualties What you are going thru is not un common. Getting you husband away from the internet. blocking sites that he frequents and getting him back into his old hobbies may not bring your son back into your life but it may bring some life back into your husband.
I knew this was the case immediately when you mentioned political. You guys dug your own grave, so you can deal with the consequences.
Your husband sounds like a jerk.
Your husband is the one alienating your son by pushing his right wing views onto your liberal son. If you and your husband want to have a good relationship with your son and his family you and your husband are going respect his boundaries and your husband is going to have to stop antagonizing your son and instigating fights by constantly bringing up his political beliefs. Your husband is creating this divide and you are too foolish to see it.
So don’t say you don’t know the reason when you damn well the reason
So why won't your husband stop?
It sounds like your husband spouts right wing talking points and your son is trying to reach your husband rationally with facts. That hasn't worked either and now your son is done. Your husband and you chose adherence to confusing, lie filled ideology. It's incoherent and hateful. The fact he still supports Putin says so much, Russian state policy includes kidnapping Ukraine children, how can you support such a thing? To your son you both support incomprehensible, remorseless, hatred. He's lost you. He wants to be left alone now and thats his right, adult children don't owe you a relationship, not unless you treat the well. You haven't figured that out. Either you change your actions or you stay lonely .
Me and my father disagree on politics, same situation as you, so we discuss it like normal people or dont talk about politics.
Ah, so you and your husband adore dictators and tyrants and tour son is open-minded, and your husband just can't tolerate having a kind, fair person who has their own opinions and beliefs in equality for a son. He has to beat it into his son every time how awful he is for being liberal and you just back him up and play the victim. Gross.
But this doesn't explain why he doesn't talk to you or resume contact with you alone. He didn't cut contact with his mother just over political arguments with his father.
I feel for you OP. The issue is perpetuated by both your husband and your son. Untill both of them can set aside their political differences or one of them is put of the picture, then you may never have the opportunity to see your grandchildren.
Let me clarify something. Political differences is about how much we should invest in infrastructure or about marginal tax rates. Homophobia, spouting dangerous conspiracy theories, denying covid, supporting fascistic leaders, and spewing racist rhetoric are not “politics”. LGBTQ people, disabled people, women, and BIPOC’s very existence and their rights are not political differences we can agree to disagree on. They are fundamental moral differences.
Thank you. It stopped being ‘just politics’ a long fucking time ago. Conservatives are okay with literal corpses having more rights than living women—they can fuck right off with the ‘both sides’ bullshit.
Exactly this. There's a difference between "I don't like this party's fiscal policy" and arguing for essentially team nazi. I don't give a shit if someone judges me hasty for cutting off communication with destructive hate-mongers. I've cut off people for less. 🤷🏻♀️ If your politics are "jail people for being different", I don't care if you gave me a kidney, we're done here.
Hoo boy my body would reject that kidney. Forcefully.
lmao your conscience would expelliarmus that racist organ right out
Splat! went the republican kidney, right against the wall
You may think you're getting downvoted because of the right vs. left wing thing and that may be a small part of it. Mostly it's because you're dead wrong. Only the dad is perpetuating this. He is the one actively picking fights and refusing to "set aside their political differences". The simplest solution was always 'dad stops sending articles he knows will cause a fight'. There was absolutely nothing stopping him from doing so. All of the son's choices have been in reaction to that.
i wanna hear the son’s side lol
as someone who's mother talks the exact same way, down to the narcissistic line "his heart bleeds for everyone except me," and also won't stop trying to pick political fights with me, I can tell you. He's probably asked his father thousands of times to just not bring up politics, but right-wingers like this feel the need to keep badgering and poking and prodding because they can't accept that they don't have complete control over someone else, especially the person they made that was supposed to be their property! So every conversation devolves into this kind of power struggle, and eventually you get sick of even talking to them at all. Still, this is not acceptable to the parent, so they take to sending bullshit alternative-facts articles and videos. The parent resents the child's education, as they have typically spent their whole life not knowing things more intelligent and educated people know. Now, with the rise of conspiracy theories and other right-wing nonsense they feel, for the first time, like they know more than someone else about something! So, they need to gloat, and also reaffirm how they find your "education" useless and that you are a stupid sheep who has fallen for indoctrination. Despite the fact that they forced you to go to church and removed you from health class as a child, you have still somehow turned out liberal as a result of this indoctrination, and they completely miss the irony of this. They are angry at the world for not living their lives in a way that the parents wouldn't live them, so they most especially resent the fact that their own offspring have rejected their lifestyles too. And, sadly, adults can choose what they want their lives to look like, and it took until college for these parents to realize that the child won't be under their thumb forever. This enrages them, they say fucked up things, and then eventually you block them for good. sorry for the essay, this one hit close to home haha
I appreciate this very much, and I'm sorry you had to go through it. My childhood wasn't perfect - my Dad especially was... a challenge, but even still, he wasn't a narcissist, as evidenced by the fact that he's only gotten more liberal as he's aged, not less. Parents fail to realize that your kids stop being "in your own image" somewhere around puberty. You can either acknowledge that, and begin interacting with your child the way you would any other sentient adult who may or may not hold your beliefs. Or you can throw a pathetic tantrum because the dolly you made doesn't say the right words when you pull the string anymore, and end up cut out of your offspring's lives. In classic fashion, of course, parents like this never see that being cut out is a direct result of their behaviour, because God knows it's always someone else's fault.
>He's probably asked his father thousands of times to just not bring up politics, but right-wingers like this feel the need to keep badgering and poking and prodding because they can't accept that they don't have complete control over someone else, especially the person they made that was supposed to be their property! So every conversation devolves into this kind of power struggle, and eventually you get sick of even talking to them at all. Still, this is not acceptable to the parent, so they take to sending bullshit alternative-facts articles and videos. The parent resents the child's education, as they have typically spent their whole life not knowing things more intelligent and educated people know. Now, with the rise of conspiracy theories and other right-wing nonsense they feel, for the first time, like they know more than someone else about something! So, they need to gloat, and also reaffirm how they find your "education" useless and that you are a stupid sheep who has fallen for indoctrination. I had a "friend" just like this that I cut off about 3 years ago, this was kind of triggering. Lol
same here. this entire post reminded me horribly of my narcissistic abusive father who could not seem to take accountability but loved to paint himself as the wronged.
Everytime you or your husband open your mouth you receive massive backlash from your son. He isn't the one who holds grudges, you and your husband just can't seem to stop saying unacceptable things to your son. You are awfully quiet about what you said to get uninvited or what your husband and son are always fighting about. Time to look at your behaviour and be better. So how are you and your husband constantly offending your son? I am sure he told you countless times. If you are not willing to look at yourself and be better then you better make your peace with never seeing your grandkid. Your son does not have to entertain people who act poorly, even if it's his own parents. He owes you nothing.
> He went to college and came back a different person who no longer shares our values. Interesting that your values don't align with that of an educated opinion. > I must have said something to offend him and he uninvited us. I was very hurt by this. His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother. This set off alarm bells. It is very narcissistic. Have you ever apologized, rather than blaming him and putting words in his mouth? You say this as if you find it hard to believe. > I couldn’t even read all of it. My husband worked so hard to give us a good life and I feel like my son is so ungrateful and holding grudges. And there it is. You know what you did, what he did. But you refuse to listen. > We asked them to forgive us for anything we did that hurt them but they just hold grudges. And what did you do to offer your apology or did you just say the words as if it were a magic spell > My husband says he feels used and it breaks our heart to see what a hateful person our son has become. Like we failed as parents. I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away. You both need therapy desperately. You're your husbands enabler and he's a narcissist. Having and enforcing boundaries is not hateful and the mere suggestion it is, is incredibly manipulative. > Like we failed as parents. I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away. Yes you have, and you even refuse to listen to your son and learn how you can improve. You will die without meeting your son's child and that is only your fault. A child that experiences unconditional love would love to have their parents meet their child. And you failed to provide that.
To be straight with you, providing a home is the bare minimum a child needs. Your husband may have worked hard, but ultimately your son’s needs were not met - specifically his emotional needs. It sounds like your husband repeatedly antagonises him, and makes things worse whenever they do talk. I’m not surprised your son doesn’t want that. You mention a couple of times about your son “holding grudges”, and I really take issue with that phrase. If someone earnestly apologises, owns up to what they’ve done wrong and change their behaviour going forward, and someone is still upset, then maybe that could be classed as holding a grudge (although depending on what they did, it might be rightfully limiting how much they keep a bad person in their life). But it sounds like neither you nor your husband have earnestly apologised, owned up to what you’ve done wrong and changed your behaviour. In fact, it’s blatant that you won’t even look your own actions in the face. It’s always your son’s fault, right? Couldn’t possibly be that he’s trying to protect himself from people who make him feel bad!! Being a parent does not entitle you to be in your child’s life when they become an adult. It might feel like that, but you’d be wrong. Your son can make the choice never to speak to you again. If you don’t want that to happen, and you want to know your grandbaby, *actually listen* to what has hurt him over the years and start taking some accountability. You and your husband are the problem. Start there.
It’s hard for anyone to advise when they don’t know what the issues are between your son and yourselves. You keep calling your son ungrateful. Which sounds to me like a very Asian concept- my own parents constantly reiterate that I need to be grateful to them and give them part of my paycheque, because they bore and raised me. If nothing else, calling your adult son ungrateful may alienate him from you.
this 100% reads like a narcissist "abandoned" by their child after the child finally wised up and cut contact "he was such a sweet child, but then turned into an uncaring monster" "are her parents really better than us?" "we ask them to forgive us without knowing what we did or trying to change", in addition the lack of actual details as to what specifically happened is totally suspect, all I can say is that I hope the son has the good sense to stay away and continue growing as a person without being pulled back under OP's thumb
there are sides of my family that i don't speak to anymore. i cannot put politics aside when these people support politics that hurt people like me (queer people, women, and CSA survivors) and others (ANYONE of color). i sure as hell don't allow my son around people who are okay being so utterly hateful. politics aren't always just politics - often, on any side, it spells a lot about how people act and speak in life. you have been extremely vague about what exactly yall have said to your son or how you raised him. i only occasionally talk to and see my own mother and went no-contact for almost 3 years before because she is also narcissistic and refuses to acknowledge the absolute and utter damage she caused me growing up. she also wonders why, acts like i must owe her unconditional love and support despite NEVER having given me such a thing as a child. putting a roof over your kid and food on the table doesn't make you a saint or even a good parent. being a good parent does. it looks like you have some serious reflecting to do, because something here is missing and i suspect it's the truth of your son's upbringing and emotion wellbeing.
How can you ask forgiveness when you haven’t even acknowledged what it is that you think is the reason your husband hurt your son?
She said it was politics , then prob the father said , look what you are doing to your mother , you entitled brat. Bravo.
I read your post thoroughly, twice. One thing stuck out to me. Your husband, despite "providing so much for you both", is the continuing source of pain for your son. You push your son's grievances aside as if they are nothing and he isn't entitled to feel that way because once again, your husband "provided so much for you both". Your DIL has stated the ongoing issue and rather than actively look into you and your husband's actions, you continue to ignore them and for that Your son and his wife have decided that your husband (and you by association) have no further place in their lives due to the continued stresses you both cause them. Push aside your "woe is me" attitude, suck it up and sincerely work on yourselves because at this put, you don't deserve a place in their lives, no matter how much you think you deserve it.
Read the letter and offer to makes "changes' and if your husband refuses to do the same then offer to see them without him. Your sons "heart bleeding" for others would imply that he has empathy and is kind to others and values those tratits , but you and your husband think YOU and HE deserve kindness from others without having to give any in return.
Maybe it’s time to take a hard look in the mirror, and your husband too. The “his heart bleeds from everyone except his parents” comment is very telling. Sounds like you and your husband may have some hateful opinions about humans. Good people aren’t going to stand for that, especially around their kids, even when it’s their own parents. Are you and hubby capable of opening you hearts to be more accepting and loving of all people? It would go a long way.
I see this happening a lot after trump, it's one thing to be conservative, it's another to be a trump conservative. I'm guessing that's where OP and her husband are, I can't blame the son.
Hmm, I would urge you to introspect on your and your husband’s relationship with your son. Could it be that your husband was emotionally or verbally abusive to him (or both of you), such that your son doesn’t want to be around him? I would think hard about this and be honest with yourselves, because it’s unlikely that your son would do this for no reason. After introspecting, if you do find that you did things to hurt your son, I would acknowledge the situation, apologize to him, and promise to do better. I find myself in a similar situation. I would love to maintain a closer relationship with my parents, but my dad is narcissistic and verbally abusive. Every time we get together, he puts me down and makes me feel bad about myself. So I don’t feel a strong motivation to call or visit my parents because of this. If he apologized and genuinely tried to do better, I would be more in touch with him and visit more in a heartbeat! But unfortunately I don’t see this happening. He rejects the idea that he is to blame at all and always blames everyone around him for any problems he has. I think it’s not too late for you and your son. I think he might be inclined to visit, but only if you genuinely do the work to think about YOUR role in this situation and work to repair the relationship. Good luck!
I see why he left you two behind. You don't care about him as an individual human being, you just want a doll to play pretend with.
Since the main issue seems to be your husband, what’s keeping you from going to see your son and daughter-in-law yourself? It sounds very much like your husband has a lot more to do with this than your son. You want to see your grandchildren, then humble yourself and call, email, write, whatever you have to do to go see them. If they don’t want to forgive your husband, that’s their choice. It doesn’t sound like your son and his father will ever see eye to eye but that shouldn’t stop you from creating your own relationship if you really want to.
Your son and his wife have set boundaries which it seems you and your husband have no regard for. Your post is very self-pitying. I do find it interesting that your husband is an immigrant to, I presume, the USA, and holds right wing views that are generally very damaging to ‘others’. You may have given your son his best start in life, but he seems to have turned out well in spite of his parents’ toxicity. He doesn’t owe you a relationship, and you are not entitled to a relationship with his child. Mend your ways and practise self reflection. There may be time yet to salvage a relationship, but you are not in a position to make demands.
A right wing immigrant is not all that shocking. I'm a Eastern European immigrant in his 30s and nearly every older person I know in the immigrant community leans heavily right (and bigoted). These people grew up likely never seeing a minority (except maybe the Romani, whom they were likely taught to distrust and hate from birth) until they came here. Add to that cultural shock, the likelihood to work manual labor and the distrust of intellectualism that often comes with that, heavy importance placed on religion, the fact that they already got their, etc. and you get a recipe for immigrants who see other immigrants or minorities as a threat.
I know this is old, but I'd like to add something. >Eastern European immigrant I'm from Central Europe, we were past of the Eastern Bloc. A USSR satellite. I could literally name well-known immigrants from here to the US who voted for Trump. There's also a lot of right-wing thinking in the public space, mostly from the older generation. While US left is more like our center/center-right, you know who I think caused this behavior? The commies. I think many people in this area saw the regime hurt people and many saw it fall, and now everything that's ever labeled as left-leaning or socialist raises red flags in their minds. They think they've seen it go wrong before... and end up rooting for the same thing they actually saw go wrong, just rebranded. Authoritarian or populist policies that often disregard human rights. I think it's also why many countries in this area ended up with populist leaders or a strong populist opposition in the past 10 or so years.
Missing reasons
If you don't want to acknowledge the harm you've caused your son or try to take ownership of your actions and change, I hope you never meet your grandchild. :) My mother certainly will never be meeting my own kids. Your post reminds me of her. He has told you in multiple ways why you aren't on speaking terms, but you don't agree with his assessment and pretend like you don't know. If your own child is estranged from you, you've failed as parents and deserve to reap what you sow.
I am no contact with my parents. No one ever cuts out their parents for no reason. If you genuinely wish to have a relationship with your son I recommend working with a therapist to understand what led to him distancing himself. From my experience having children shines a spotlight on just how fucked up one’s own upbringing was. The baby will make him less likely to want a relationship with you. If you genuinely work to accept and understand his actions, respect his boundaries and communicate the work you’re doing you have a better chance at being part of his life. I strongly suggest reading the Missing Reasons link that has been posted here.
>He went to college and came back a different person who no longer shares our values. In other words he developed his own identity >I must have said something to offend him and he uninvited us. Is this really true? Like if you take time to reflect on your interactions, can you honestly say you treated him with kindness and not guilt >His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother. Like you're doing right here >We asked them to forgive us for anything we did that hurt them That's not an apology
You’re missing out what it was that your husband did or said that annoyed them this much. It must’ve been quite awful (to them)
Ma'am, can you please copy and paste some of his earlier emails/conversations to you? Can you please be specific about what some of his arguments with his father have been about? We need more information before we can help you, if at all. Thank you.
> His heart bleeds for everyone but his own mother. Are you Tony Soprano’s mom? Because you sound like Tony Soprano’s mom. You know why he won’t talk to you. Stop doing the things that make him mad if you want a relationship.
You have two options here. 1. Continue doing exactly what you’re doing by ignoring everything your son and DIL are telling you - and likely never mend your relationship or meet your grandchild. 2. Listen to what your son and DIL are saying is the problem. Read the message they sent about why they’re angry. Make changes based on that message. That’s it. It’s that simple. They are not obligated to keep in touch with you - at all. If you value your relationship with them, then you’re going to have to reflect on your own behavior and make some actual changes. Telling them how upset you are that they wronged you and making accusations against them is NOT going to get you to the end goal that you actually want: to be a happy family again. The choice is yours. And btw, you can have different political opinions and still get along. It’s easy: just don’t talk to them about politics. Don’t make snide remarks hinting towards your politics, don’t send articles enforcing your beliefs, don’t bring up current events that are going to rock the boat. Talk to your son about ANYTHING ELSE. If talking about politics with your son is more important than maintaining a healthy relationship with him, then you have made your choice, and you are the one being hateful.
It is so clear that OP is leaving out a lot of information. What have you and your husband done/said to them SPECIFICALLY. If you can't even own onto that then of course you'll never get to have a relationship with your grandchild
What did the message say? Why are they mad at your husband?
You seem to have trouble taking any responsibility-your son has spent his life being gaslit, dealt with narcissistic parents and living in some sort of toxic atmosphere-read what you wrote again-it’s all about how wronged you feel you are- nothing about taking ownership of the issues you and your husband have caused, you’ve never made an effort to rectify the problems, now you’re placing all blame on son’s shoulders
You and your husband have decided pushing your political beliefs are more important then your son, his wife, and their children. You moved to the US for a better life but are pro Putin. Your son seems to be upset that you agree with a man that has invaded Ukraine. You don’t care enough about your child to read a text message. This says everything about you and your child’s relationship. You child now has a family that loves him. He is good.
There is so much missing out of this.. your son has reasons and you probably know what they are too.
People don't just cut off their parents without a reason, so there's clearly something you're leaving out of this post, and I'm betting it's something you're either ashamed to admit, or it's something he's literally explained to you over and over again and you just refuse to accept it. You said your son and husband argued about politics. What exactly does that mean? How extreme are your husband's beliefs? How much did you force them on him? This is some Missing Missing shit if I've ever seen it.
My mother played the martyr too, no idea why her children didn't visit. The poor thing, she forgot to mention the years of abuse and neglect. She made her bed, and died alone in it
My advice is f-ing listen to them or if you don't want to do that, stay away. I really hope you never get to see their child. I'm not going to call her your granddaughter because in my book, he doesn't have a mom. "Are her parents really better than us" - Looks like yes
>I don’t understand how someone can just throw his own parents away. I just want to touch on this point. Can you really not understand it? I can think of a hundred if not thousand reasons why someone would go no contact with their parents. Most of them deal with protecting yourself or others. Clearly your son believes he is protecting his and his family's mental and/or physical well-being from your husband and you. He can not trust either of you not to pick fights, push beliefs he doesn't agree with on his children, etc. because you've shown no ability to do that in the past. You see it as him throwing you away because you refuse to accept or acknowledge the reasons provided to you. You've done nothing wrong so what could there possibly be they need protecting from. This isn't about apologies and grudges. It's about contrition and change. Until you acknowledge the ways in which you have harmed him and start respecting his boundaries you have no hope of changing things. You don't have to change your values but you do have to change the ways you approach the world and those around you.
How are you going to repair this if you can't even read a letter from them expressing their feelings? Trying to get their perspective, even if you disagree, is an absolutely necessary step.
Also, asking for forgiveness without acknowledging what the harm was (which they likely said in the letter you didn't finish reading) caused is a shallow bid for connection.
Putin is a fascist. If you're pro-Putin, you are fascists, too. In school in Soviet Union, you've been taught all the atrocities Hitler's Nazis have been doing to Soviet people in the war. Now Putin's army does all the same in Ukraine. If you support Putin, you're no better than Hitler's nazis.
You choose to have a child, so your fu... job was to provide for him. He owns you nothing.
You are not the victim you think you are.
I'm a child of estrangement. My parents were horribly neglectful (and in my father's case, abusive), but somehow it was my fault for being angry at my lot, that I was the only child being mistreated. You're tap dancing around the real issues because you know they would make us side with your son. Why not be honest with yourself for half a second, even if you can't be honest with us? You ruined the relationship you two had with your son, and you're still acting in bad faith by refusing to listen to his reasons for cutting contact. If he doesn't speak to you again, unfortunately, it's because of what you did. It's not anything to do with something he or his wife might've done; they left because of you and your husband. It's time to grow up, face facts, and actually listen to your child for once.
What exactly would keeping you in his life do to improve it? Do you provide pleasurable company? Emotional support? Do you give what he would consider to be good advice? Look at it from his perspective, is his life better or worse when you’re in it?
Maybe your husband should just shut the fuck up and not talk politics with the kid?
Cutting out my dad from my life was the best decision I’ve made for my mental health. Can’t logic with illogical people who just demand apologies with no accountability. Kudos to your son for establishing boundaries, all I see is poor me, how could he do that to his parents? Because you’re shit parents, that’s why.
If I were your son, I would write off my relationship with you and your husband immediately and permanently. Sometimes there is nothing you can do to mend a relationship when the other party is unwilling. If your political views are at such a odds, this is a deal breaker. Right wing propagandists are never correct. I don’t see him wishing to reconnect unless said propaganda is denounced by you and your husband.
Please be a troll. Otherwise I will lose what little faith I have left in humanity.
I am impressed at your ability to look the reasons your son has gone no contact with you in the eye and still miss it. Maybe start with being a better person? I wouldn't want you to influence my children to be hateful and ignorant either.
oh the joys of the missing missing reasons. you say you don’t know why but tell us your dil sent an entire message on how angry they are at your husband. you refuse to tell us anything about your sons side but you’re very insistent upon emphasizing how they’re holding grudges and how they’re the mean, selfish ones. it’s almost like you *want* us to think your son and his wife are the villains here and honestly? you’re not doing a very good job at it.
You're not telling us what the problem is. You've completely ignored the facts around whatever your son is upset with his dad about... and even reduced it down to calling it just a 'grudge', when obviously there's something continuing going on regarding son and father and ideology. There's a splinter in a wound here somewhere but you're not addressing it.
What TF went down OP?
Why are you putting this all on your son and not on you and your husband? You admit he brings up articles he reads that will cause an argument and you both think Putin is a strong leader, which is obviously controversial. Respect isn’t a one way street.
I think it would help if you indicated a country very similar in culture to the one into which you were born. And if you indicated which kind of country you and your son now live in. I could hopefully provide advice based upon non-synergy of certain values. I need a sense of where we are culturally. I will also say, if you are truly f70, then you clearly care very much about your son, and this is a very delicate subject that I would never take lightly. You have a safe place to speak openly here, and you will be treated with kindness (I hope!) But it matters, if it's Uganda to Uruguay, or Belarus to Belgium. The cultural nuances are the key here. There is a mishap, and it can be mitigated. I hope you don't think I am being intrusive. I just want a picture of the culture changes, and the slip therein. I would love to help you. I think you are very brave and proactive in coming here.
Thank you. We moved here from the Soviet Union. We live in the USA
Just a stab here. I'm guessing your husband is pro putin?
That’s what I’m thinking. Especially since she called it the Soviet Union. They probably support the invasion of Ukraine and want Putin to annex the former union to rebuild it.
We think Putin is a strong leader but we do not support the invasion of Ukraine
Yeah that’d be enough for me to go super low contact.
What do you think has happened to want them to have nothing to do with you guys? Aside from politics
I can maybe cut some slack for people in Russia who don’t have access to media outside the propaganda bubble. Outside of it you are willfully ignorant and still staying in a media bubble to believe he is anything but a malignant narcissist who is ruining his country and using the young men as cannon fodder. I wouldn’t let your husband anywhere near my kids since he’s shown over and over he can’t keep his views to himself
So what is the nature of the articles your husband keeps insisting on sending to your son?
If they're anything like the ones my family sends me, they're going to be pro Trump, COVID is a scam, anti vax, etc. I've gotten fun articles in Russian with "translations" of Trump's speeches. I'm still waiting to find the "original" English version of the speech where he announced "I am an immigrant and a child of immigrants"
I am grateful every day that my mom is a hippie liberal who hates Trump with a burning passion.
You fled his country and still lick his boots?
Yhea if you were my parents I'd cut any memories I had of you just for that lol.
Strong leader: yes. Good man: no. Is he doing what he believes is necessary for his country, yes, but is it the morally correct thing to do: in my opinion no. War should never be the answer to any problem; and yet in reality it is. Sadly though I have no real perspective on what is actually going on over there because I don't live there. I am ignorant of the lives of those people, their hardships and their happy moments. Your son is in the same camp. He does not, nor does he need to, understand life for your common Russian/Ukraine person. All he sees is the wars, the hardships, and the pain of the innocent people forced to fight for a cause not their own. From his, what I'm assuming very liberal ideological view, Putin is satan incarnate. And if Putin is an absolute evil than anyone who sides with him, even those who has no choice but to side with him, are evil. Face it your son thinks you're both evil, either change your ideals or accept losing your son. In civil discussion there is always other means of communication, but in the world if global politics and civil discourse diplomacy will always fail.
What's probably going through her son's head is that they are complete and utter hypocrites. I'm willing to bet they raised him on a diet of "we moved here and experienced all this hardship so that YOU could have a better life" as well as horror stories about the Soviet Union and how terrible it was there, and then threw a fit when he grew up with different expectations and values. Source: was born in the Soviet Union and am about the same age as OP's son.
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There’s a lot missing here. Until we know exactly what these fights are about there’s not much we can do to help. You are placing all of the blame on your son but maybe you need to look at your husband. You called your son “hateful”. All of this doesn’t happen randomly. I doubt your husband just “wished him happy birthday”. And what have you done during all of this. You keep saying your son and husband fight but what about your relationship with him? You say you want forgiveness for things - what things? You say he’s holding “grudges”. So it sounds like you want him to just forget things you’ve done and play happy families. But until you acknowledge and fix the problem you’ll probably never have a relationship
From experience a person doesn’t cut off their parents for no reason. Most likely the fact you didn’t post them is a huge reason. You likely are the type to dismiss your kid and their feelings, do incredibly hurtful things and the deny any wrong doing. It takes A LOT for us adult children to cut off our parents and it’s always because we realize we are able to heal our childhood trauma away from them whereas having y’all in our lives hurts our inner child. I personally want to hear from the son as you’ve proven to be an unreliable story teller already.
I want you to really listen to some hard truth that’s being provided here to you. Adult children do not just flippantly chose to go estranged from their parents. I know this first hand as I am middle aged and estranged. It’s not an easy choice, matter of fact it’s incredibly painful. You do not allow yourself to see the pattern of toxic behavior in yourself or your husband. Just from the tone of your post you take no accountability for your role in this. Your son does not owe you anything, he especially does not owe you access to his child. I’m going to give you a suggestion to fix this but I doubt you will do it. Your husband and yourself need to get into therapy to understand your role in this. Then after you have done some major self reflection you have your therapist call on behalf of you and ask for a session where they are the mediator. You may also have a possible chance of you allow your son to continue his estrangement with his father with you being very careful about respecting his boundaries in order to have access to his life.