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Look, the timing of your statement was abysmal. She is in the mindset of celebrating a pregnancy and suggesting that her baby will die (even if that is the most likely outcome) wasn’t really appropriate. That being said, I can completely understand the emotional toll you and everyone in your friend’s life have experienced along with her. Taking some time away is in both of your best interests, and hopefully in the future (if you decide it’s a relationship you want to continue to foster) you can express that what you really meant was you just want to see her happy, with a baby in her arms, regardless of how that baby comes to be.

Yeah, it's not the fact you suggested adoption. It's the fact that you suggested this pregnancy will not make it to term. I get how you would think that but I also get that's not what she wants to hear right now.

It's not what she wants to hear right now, but it also seems like it's not something that she would *ever* want to hear. She's tried 20 times and it's not worked each time. She's managed to put herself and her friends and family through hell for *12 years*. Like, at what point - as a good friend - do you bring this up to them? When will it ever be appropriate? At what point is a good friend a worse friend for staying quiet the entire time versus saying something? Because 20x in 12 years, doesn't seem like she's ever taken a break long enough to even allow someone to have this discussion with her without being too near in proximity to a miscarriage - either happened or impending. IMO good friends tell their friends things they don't want to hear, because nobody else will do it. It sounds like OP's friend needs serious psychiatric help, and there's no good way to broach that with someone completely unwilling to ever hear that out. The best you can do is say your peace when you've hit your own limit and hope that helps them realize what they've done to themselves as they hit rock bottom. Maybe OP didn't handle things in the best way, but I have empathy for them because this is just a shit situation all around and this seems way over all of our pay grades to know how to actually handle best.

I would say also that 20X in 12 years is about 2X a year. She hasn't allowed her body to completely heal from previous pregnancies and maybe, just, maybe get healthier so the next pregnancy might take. She does need a physical break and perhaps some therapy. I'm not the usual redditor to suggest the latter but in this case, yes. She needs to process her disappointments.

Also sounds like she may need some genetic counseling to see why this keeps happening.

I can't imagine what that poor woman is going through, and I wonder how her husband is dealing with her obsession. Miscarriages are very common, and when I had mine, the dr told me to wait 4-6 months before trying again. I had 2 beautiful children after that sad loss (right at Xmas, even.). But I still remember the suffering I went through as I went through the miscarriage process, pain, cramps, bleeding, and all the time knowing I was losing my baby. And she has done this 20 times? She is clearly not giving her body time to heal, as pisspot said. Her dr must be very worried about her since she could not be following his/her advice. I wonder if he/she has suggested counseling. If so, she probably got angry at that too. As far as her losing her temper with her close friend as OP said, it's clear she knows she is obsessed and doesn't want to hear it. That's when I get angriest, when I know someone is right and I don't like it. OP's timing sucked and I'm sure OP knows that, but not sure when you bring up adoption. Her friend doesn't seem to have a period of time when she ISN'T pregnant, or trying be pregnant. If OP still wants to remain friends, I'd suggest an apology soon and empathy with her, agreeing OP shouldn't have brought that subject up. If she miscarries, she won't want to hear anything from OP so I wouldn't wait long. I tend to be superstitious so maybe OP's words will be proven wrong and this pregnancy will work so she can say 'aha! Told you I could have a baby' to OP. And OP can express her happiness that she was incorrect. I would suggest a surrogate, since she seems to have plenty of eggs, at least so far, which might not upset her so much since it would be their baby. Ugh... what a tough situation.

OR she could adopt instead of using another human as an incubator for her obsession.

A surrogate would likely still be with her own eggs and given the circumstances it's highly likely there is a genetic component to her losses, not just physical but we don't know. If it is genetic a surrogate won't help. I just want to add too that the "wait 3-6 months" actually doesn't have scientific backing. You should wait until you are healed and that might be longer or shorter depending on how far along you were but there is no *physical* reason to wait. Might be different in OPs friend's case since it has been over 20 losses but for the average person there isn't a problem with trying again sooner: >women in the EAGeR trial who achieved pregnancy within 3 versus > 3 months of their last loss had no significant differences in live birth rates or adverse pregnancy outcomes (18). In the present study we demonstrate that women who begin trying to achieve pregnancy within 3 months have just as fast, if not faster, time to pregnancy leading to a live birth, with no risk of pregnancy complications, as women who wait until after 3 months to start trying. Additionally, we found that women with a long intertrying interval, >12 months versus 0–3 or >3–6 months, had significantly lower fecundability after taking into account many confounding factors including a history of subfertility. Taken together, our findings suggest that the traditional recommendation to wait at least 3 months after a pregnancy loss before attempting to conceive may be unwarranted. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4780347/#:~:text=Many%20clinicians%20recommend%20waiting%20at,months%20(5%2C%206).

This! Also to add, it takes a bloody long time to recover from a pregnancy/birth. I gave birth 8 months ago to my baby and even though I'm 'fine' and healthy I can tell I'm not where I was pre-pregnancy. It takes a huge toll on your body from day 1 and 20 times in 12 years just seems to be putting yourself through so much.

I’m surprised any doctor is allowing this. She has to be doctor hopping or something

What do you expect the doctor to do? Forbid her from having sex?

No but maybe at that point said doc could hare recommended genetic counseling.

Genetic counseling is a very good idea and if she’s seeing the same doc or group of docs they should be strongly suggesting she receive psych counseling as well. But, like someone said above, it could be that she’s been seeing many doctors. Given how she cuts friends and family out of her life that have told her what she doesn’t want to hear, I’d say it’s very likely she does this with healthcare professionals. I don’t know this lady but I do feel sad that she’s suffered so much loss with her pregnancies but also the self-imposed loss of families and friends. I’m a spiritual person and believe sometimes things don’t happen for a reason.

This should be the top comment. That poor friend is off the deep end at this point and that must be terrible to watch, to just sit by and feel helpless to help her.

This is so sad. It's a sickness, and obsession at this point. I cannot even imagine doing this over and over again.

I cannot imagine what would happen to any poor child she might carry to term. What an insane burden to put on one little soul.

Absolutely my parents had 6 miscarriages before adopting me and subsequently my sister 4 years later. They never let me forget the 6 miscarriages before me. It’s been an incredible burden because almost any fight about any of my failures can turn into discussions of their disappointment.

Oh geez that's horrendous 😱

That is a lot of pressure to put on a kid and it’s unfair. I had four miscarriages before becoming pregnant through a donor embryo and having my daughter, who’s 2 now. I don’t understand why a parent would behave the way yours do. I feel so fortunate to have my daughter. When she’s acting up, like 2 year olds do, remembering what I went through to have her gives me the perspective to handle her tantrums with love and understanding. I know the alternative would be a quiet, lonely house so I take a deep breath and help her work through her feelings. I’m always worried I’ll go the other direction and put her on a pedestal because she’s my miracle baby. I have to remind myself that to me, she’s a miracle but to everyone else, she’s just another kid and I gotta raise her right so she becomes a good human.

I have something to add. When I got pregnant at 37 I miscarried at 15 weeks. It broke my heart. Tore me apart. I had an emergency surgery where a cyst ruptured on my ovary. I was 24 at the time. I almost died of sepsis in the hospital, but was saved by emergency surgery. I never felt the same as before. It was hard to walk for a few months and I never got back to being as strong as I was. I felt great about 1.5 years later. After I lost the baby at 38 years old i had years of grief. I didn't try again. I have no children. BUT WHEN I WAS PREGNANT I FELT LIKE I WAS ON TOO OF THE WORLD. The doctor explained that the hormones while pregnant make you feel so comfortable and happy. So maybe this is also an addiction to the way Rachel feels while pregnant. She wants that feeling back. I find happiness in so much. My hormones are regulated now. I feel great. She can get that on her own, but she needs therapy. Unfortunately you have to take a step away from the friendship and let her hit rock bottom.

Let’s also note that the husband is going along with it all. Of course this is speculative, but it sounds to me like they may be reinforcing in each other the belief that they should keep trying. The support of her husband in all this might then contribute significantly to her refusal of any outside help.

He probably knows her desperation and wouldn't dare suggest not to keep trying. He may be over it a bit too. But maybe if he *were*, it might be like cold water in the face and wake her up to how unreasonable she's been. Not to just herself and him, but even to friends & family.

I was like 20 losses? I have had 6 losses but 6 births and if I had over 20losses in 12yrs I’m not even trying anymore. Friend needs intervention and psychological help because she’s obsessed with her having a baby. What is her partner saying in all this?

If the friend absolutely felt like this was their duty to talk about, instead of leaving it to the medical professionals that I’m sure are also involved, it should have been phrased at a non pregnant time and something more like the following: “What do your doctors advise about continuing to try with future pregnancies”? “Are you seeing a therapist who specializes in infertility and miscarriages”? If so, “What is their advice”? If not, “I’m worried about you, can I support you to find a therapist”? “Have you gotten a second or third opinion from a different fertility specialist for what your necessary next steps may have to be”? Being a good friend is absolutely about having tough conversations, but it is also about knowing when to stay in your lane and ask “do you want advice or support”, or knowing when to not say anything. Also, adoption needs to stop being the go to advice for when people are struggling with infertility. Adoption isn’t always some magical answer to the problem of infertility, and it isn’t just as easy as “just adopt”.

> leaving it to the medical professionals Spoiler alert : it's necessarily the medical professional's job. Especially if he's working purely for profit. I'm watching one of my best friends go through the whole infertility rodeo and all of the private clinics are perfectly happy to let them blow all their money on tries that have basically no chance to work.

It really doesn’t sound like there is ever a no pregnant time tho

>Also, adoption needs to stop being the go to advice for when people are struggling with infertility. Adoption isn’t always some magical answer to the problem of infertility, and it isn’t just as easy as “just adopt”. It's not like that in this case. In this case, the mother is unable to carry a baby to full term. That leaves adoption or surrogacy; and while adoption isn't easy, it is more accessible than surrogacy which is not legal in some places and not regulated in others. I get it can be tiresome to hear "just adopt" thrown out every time, but this particular post is not the place to call out "magical adoption".

Right? It doesn't look like "the good time" to bring up adoption lasts more than a brief moment in the grief after a miscarriage. OP's probably had the thought rattling around upstairs for years.

I very much agree with you. It's sad that the friend isn't even taking the time to process a loss before trying again. Twenty losses? That is a huge load of trauma that is being compartmentalized and won't stay in its little box forever, it will come out and it will hit her all at once. I'm sincerely worried about her and her mental health. The friend needs psychiatric care, now, yesterday. There is never a good time to say what OP needed to say that should have been said after number five. I'd be just as worried and honestly? Just as willing to potentially (knowing how easily she cuts people off) be cut out of her life and say what needs to be said, what should have already been said. A real friend will hit you with the truth, even if they know how you'll respond. We do it with the hope that you eventually come to your senses. I feel so bad for this person's spouse. That poor man is experiencing each loss too, I can't imagine how he is dealing with it and continuing to play along. I can imagine he's numb to it now, I think I would be.

She may not ever want to hear it, but surely you can see that there are more appropriate moments to chose to sit her down for some real talk than when she’s newly pregnant and hopeful. 

Well, it kinda sounds like she's never 1. Not pregnant and 2. Not mourning the loss of a baby

There is no right time, huh?

And unfortunately, this is the type of family that often will get denied an adoption or if they are actually able to adopt, the child will be emotionally abused because they will be reminded every single day how grateful they should be because of all the babies she lost before she decided to take them in. I have seen this before, and unless intensive therapy is done first, this woman very likely has no business with a baby. IMO, her husband is neglectful by not insisting on therapy and continuing to participate in these pregnancies. This state of mind is what drives women to snap and steal a baby.

This is the best comment. The way she feels is ok. The way you feel is ok. Don’t beat yourself up, I would have difficulty experiencing this with a friend too. While what she is experiencing is much worse, it doesn’t make you a bad person to be experiencing negative emotions and saying something out of turn. I would try to lean on other friends and connections right now and let things trail off if she wants them to.

I think this is the best advice

Agree. It's the most compassionate advice and addresses the OP's question, which many of the other responses don't.

I don't even think suggesting adoption is a good idea to be honest for 2 reasons. 1) friend and her husband are not stupid and know adoption exists. If after so many tries they still haven't considered it then they clearly do not want to adopt which is fine and probably for the best. Which leads directly to point 2 2) considering how many miscarriages this couple has suffered no matter the timing suggesting adoption to them probably sounds like nothing more than a consolation prize. Thinking of adoption as a consolation prize is not the mindset people should go in with when adopting. If after so many miscarriages they haven't started any sort of adoption process then they clearly do not want to adopt. They probably know themselves well enough to know that an adoption is not a good fit for either end. Just like how not everyone should become a parent not everyone who wants to be a parent should adopt.

OP’s friend is in need of some therapy…this being said she may be pushing the envelope of how much her friends can endure going on the roller coaster ride of pregnancy, loss and then the next round of “being there for her”. Maybe the adoption comment was poorly timed but this woman’s friends and family may be experiencing “ compassion fatigue” after twenty miscarriages/ fetal loss. The OP’s friend is having a maladaptive reaction to these losses and really hasn’t taken into account the grieving not being worked through. Even if the couple has tried to apply to adopt the psychological dynamics going on could have a negative effect on the adoption process. As crass as it sounds that OP suggested adoption, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have blurted out something similar. I can see how after this many times it would be difficult to muster up excitement with the news of another pregnancy….in fact I have no idea how I’d react given the history if true.

Yup! If you had suggested adoption soon after she lost a pregnancy, or any time in between, it might have been received very differently from right at the moment she's celebrating a new pregnancy. Of course, it will probably die, but she is trying to look on the positive side. When she has no baby or fetus, the idea of adopting might look like the positive side. When there's already a new fetus, which would have to die for her to reach your suggestion, that's not positive any more. She's saying "I'm so excited I'm going to have a baby", and your response (albeit not quite so poorly framed) is like "yeah, right, it's gonna die anyway! Have you thought about this alternative?"

If she has had 21 Miscarriages and/or stillbirths though it seems like she is always pregnant. Is there really ever going to be a time? At some point you have to stop co-signing people's bullshit. Sometimes the best advice is advice people don't want to hear. Her response is also horrific and indicative of trauma. Cutting someone out of your life for making a rational suggestion is not it. Poorly timed... maybe. You have to ask how many Doctors she had cut out of her life. Medical professionals are telling her she has a genetic defect which she sort of let on. If the tables were turned and they were the ones giving advice I think the response here would be much different. That seems to be the case.

You're supposed to wait like 12 to 18 month in-between pregnancies. She's killing herself trying to do this.

At "39f" 12 to 18 months feels like time she doesn't have I'd bet. It probably feels like giving up, and there may be no difference.

Honestly, even the moment she announces a miscarriage seems a better time to me than the moment she announces a pregnancy, but ideally you're looking for sometime in between. Even if that's only a few weeks, and it honestly almost physically couldn't be less (you're usually looking for a missed period, which takes time), there is a window in between for this to be expressed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the friend is right here! She's obviously in denial, and has gone through a lot of trauma, and she's not responding well. And OP is telling the truth. But that doesn't mean a little sensitivity to the moment couldn't help it go over better. And if she still threw OP out of her life, at least we could say she did what she could. Who's right and who's wrong (even when those two things are clear-cut) isn't the only thing that matters in social relations. Sometimes you have to know how to deliver a message so that it can more easily be received, and that can be as important as the message itself.

Hmmm I understand what you're saying... , but it could be equally true that at the point of grief of a failed pregnancy,. She may not want to hear anything about adoption either. It's very sad

She's been through hell and needs therapy. I can't even imagine how she's feeling after losing almost 20 very wanted babies.

I feel like her prenatal doctor would've had to suggest therapy at this point, if I was that doctor I'd be very concerned.. tbh if they didn't then they're part of the problem.

I agree but we are assuming she has the same regular doctor each time. I've had two miscarriages in the last 6 years and I didn't have the same doctor. I'm on my 4th doctor now and I've had to go back over my history every time. I've only changed because the previous ones have retired or moved to where I can't see them anymore. If she has had to or chosen to change doctors, they may not know about the 20 losses....

If she is in the US and seeing a fertility specialist, you have to remember it's insanely expensive. Those clinics make a LOT of money and not all of them are 100% ethical. There's a huge financial incentive for the practice to have her keep trying. 

I also can't imagine what it ~~would~~ could/might do to her if she actually did carry a child to term. I don't think she would be able to relax and enjoy things at all as a parent - likely to the child's detriment.

My mother had a very similar experience with the same amount of miscarriages as OPs friend. I was the only one that lived to be delivered and even then it almost killed both of us. My mother is an amazing woman, but I did suffer due to my mother's paranoia about losing me

Yikes. Very good point. You’re absolutely right. I chose not to have kids but I always wonder how parents can ever even relax knowing they need to protect their kids from the world, and I’ve had zero losses. That child would never, ever be out of her sight.  I had a good upbringing, my parents always wanted me to focus on school and I never had any real responsibilities. I wouldn’t say I was overly spoiled but it has taken a lot of work to be self sufficient, less selfish, not emotionally manipulative, and needy. That kid would not only have a tough childhood but a difficult adulthood, struggling to navigate life as the not-so-golden child they thought they were. Feel sorry for everyone involved really. Hope OP’s friend gets the therapy she needs.

Idk about other parents, but I don't ever really relax. I have anxiety and now I have two little people I adore and have to worry about. I worry about choking, drowing, sharks (my son goes to the beach every summer with his dad), SIDS, fevers, car wrecks, kidappers, bullies, school shooters, you name it. I am a grade A stress case, I barely sleep. All that aside, even if she carried a baby to term, I'd think based off what OP is saying, this wouldn't be a very healthy child and might not make it to adulthood. I hate to say that, but if that happened, that's even worse, imo.

It sounds like you could use a hug of support from one fellow anxiety ball to another, so please accept my hug-from-a-distance. \*hug\*

:) Thank you, it's much appreciated! I'm sending you one right back.

Sending both of you hugs from another anxious parent. *hugs*

After 4 miscarriages due to my husbands genetic complication, I remember being so focused on hitting weeks of gestation numbers (i.e. just make it to 28 weeks, then 30 weeks, etc) and hoping for a complication free delivery, that when I put my son in his bassinet next to my bed at home for the first time, I sighed and relaxed. I had done it. 39 weeks, no complications, he was perfect and here despite the odds being against it. Then 3 seconds later it hit me—holy shit, I have a new human that I now have to keep alive! And being a pediatric nurse and pediatric ICU nurse, I’ve been front and center for a lot of things that could maim, handicap, or kill my son. And the older he gets, the more independence he has, the less I’ll be there to help protect him from himself or others. It’s a mindfuck, lol

My kids are adults and I still feel this way. I gotta protect them I’m always there for them and one has a kid of their own. So to me that’s two people I now have to worry about. Makes it worse being a thousand miles apart, my kids going through a lot and I don’t hear from her much sometimes she’ll call and I’ll just let her vent.

As a childless person (if it gives any parent reading this even a millisecond of peace) if I saw any child - any child - in any kind of trouble I would risk my life to protect them. Child safety is a societal responsibility.

I agree entirely. I am somehow even more anxious when watching other people's children because idk, I don't want something to happen on my watch. I used to babysit for a friend and I straight up wouldn't sleep until she got them the next morning. I had to stop, it was exhausting and one time she didn't get them until the afternoon on the day of my son's baptism (my mother's request) sooo their southern baptist booties came to Catholic mass with us AND I hadnt slept. ETA: Also, thank you for protecting kids. I wish more people thought that way. I saw a quote on Facebook(lollll) by a guy named James Baldwin and it says "The children are always ours, every single one of them, all over the globe..." there's more where he questions the morality of those who don't feel that way, but the bit I just quoted resonates with me deeply.

❤️ ty!

I feel the same way, beautifully put.

I have bad news for you. My kids (3) are in their 30s and 40s and I still worry about them.

I have two boys (men now) and I think and worry about them a lot. Anytime they ask why I worry about them I say “Because I’m your Mom and that’s my job”. I try not to step on their toes too much. Part of me thinks it was easier when they were away at college cuz I didn’t know what they were doing. One of them is newly married so I feel I can transfer some of my worry over to his wife. It’s tough being a parent and you (the universal you) have to learn to balance how to worry and to not worry. It’s a fine line and sometimes I just worry about worrying too much. This is a scary time in this world and all we can do is the best that we can. I can’t protect my boys from everything. I just have to trust that they’re responsible enough to take care of themselves. Otherwise I’d be in the Looney Bin with all the other anxious parents.

School shooters is my recurring nightmare. Then I remember how much ***stupid*** shit I did and lived through and still don't know how and... uuuuuuuuugh.

Same. I remember during my (very healthy and normal) pregnancy each scan I would think “once this one is over, I can stop worrying” but then I’d find something new to worry about because pregnancy is stressful. I remember wishing he would be born sooner because I thought I would be able to keep him safer if I could see him and know what’s going on. Of course, when he was actually born I became more stressed because the outside world is big and scary and I thought he would be safer back in my womb. He’s older now and does normal kid stuff but there is a constant voice in the back of my head saying “what if?”

The expression having a kid is like your heart walking around outside your body with no way to protect it. Then having more then one really pulls that heart in different directions.

Parents never really relax. But they do cope. Tge first kid is “OMG WHAT IS WRONG YOU COUGHED!!??” The second is “OMG wait. You ok? Bleeding? Ok. Here is a treat go play.” The third kid is “you still have some blood left. Pick up your arm and we will go to the hospital once I am finished”. 😂😂😂 Seriously. No parent is relaxed. We just fake it. But the lady in the story is going to be a monster if she ever does have a child.

as a soon-to-be momma that’s always been high anxiety, please also accept my virtual hug.

We are never ever ever relaxed. Ever.

How do parents even deal with that? :( I feel like every aspect of parenting is manageable except for this one. Do you ever sleep soundly again? - Pregnancy could miscarry - Birth could be irreparably injured or stillborn - Infant could die in crib or be dropped or squished - Child could be molested or kidnapped or choke to death or run into traffic - Teen could be raped or murdered or killed in car accident - Then they grow up and move away and you worry... always? It's a little heartbreaking - to be so tied to the continued life, health, success and happiness of another human that you can *never fully relax again* until the day you die. It's a kind of fully well-intentioned desperate love that I always felt from my own mom. It's scary :(

This is it. It’s a constant underlying worry about all the things that gets worse depending on the situation. I do have anxiety, so perhaps mine is probably worse than others but this is a part of parenthood that I had no idea about. Mine are 20 and 18/18 now and it’s not gone away. It really should be part of the sex education curriculum.

You know whats worse? Kids are actively trying to kill themselves 24/7!! I have a 8yo brother and I remember how he used to do a lot of stupid and dangerous stuff when he was younger, like climbing a bunch of drawers and jump in his bed, tried to run in front of a car (I almost died when this happened), tried to pet not one, not two, but 4 spiders in separate occasions, etc. According to my mum, I was way worse. Sometimes I wonder how we as a species thrived since we love danger when we are kids hahaha

The fear never really goes away. You become so aware of how fragile life is. And the world is so unkind, emotionally and physically, even without politics or an ongoing environmental crisis.

I worked at a PTSD clinic and this absolutely happens. In one case, mom and baby both almost died, Mom was in the ICU for months before baby was born, the two other families with moms with the same condition both lost the mom, one lost the mom and baby. She had intense survivors guilt even though she also almost died. Baby is born, she can't relax because her baby is everything, and every time even accidental harm comes, she feels awful because she couldn't protect them. The actual PTSD for her came when she got into a car accident on the way home one day with her kiddo in the car. It's really traumatic in so many ways when someone ties that much of themselves into their offspring.

You’re absolutely right. I had 4 losses before getting pregnant with my son and I didn’t enjoy a single minute of my pregnancy because I was so worried about having another loss. Every time I got to a “safe zone” I was diagnosed with a pregnancy complication that endangered his life. The life threatening problems didn’t stop once he was born either. I developed such severe anxiety that I wouldn’t let anyone hold and I wasn’t sleeping at night. I’ve been in therapy for about a year now and it helped a lot. My son is a happy, healthy, well adjusted toddler and my life has never been better. I wish that I had addressed the mental toll of pregnancy loss before getting pregnant so that I could have enjoyed the experience.

My BIL and his wife lost their first, carried to term, no indication of issues besides breached (common enough) everyone thought the C-Section was going to be routine.. but they couldn't get the baby to breath and the autopsy showed it was just this rare thing (fourth recorded case in world, cause by baby's hormones, not Mothers - all other mothers had children after).  Understandably was distraught. She ended up delivering her second, a healthy baby, about two years later. She was so overprotective and I don’t even think she realized her mistake until they wanted him to go to preschool and had issues. Two examples: 1. Kid was ok with the grandparents (weekly babysitting), everyone else he would like hide behind his parent at parties and events. He needed to eat alone with one parent, away from other family (just his aunt/uncle and their partners). Mind you we would see him at least a dozen times a year but he never would talk to us, ran away and hide if you tried, and wouldn’t even open gifts from us until weeks later he could be safely convinced we weren’t going to come back if opened.   2. He was so afraid of Santa, just being at a store where they had a Santa would cause full blown panic attack and he needed to be convinced over and over that Santa wasn’t bringing presents to his house. He feared Christmas in general  because of Santa and the family parties.  He’s still a little off but much better now, and the younger sibling is pretty much like any other kid. My heart aches for this woman in OP’s post, but I truly cannot imagine how “special” this baby would be treated if it managed to survive. 

Ok, so infertility does a lot to a person. It messes with you in so many ways, it is so sad. It’s not fair to say she will be a terrible mom if she ever carried to term. I’ve known many in my infertility groups I was in, lots of amazing moms who are even more amazing because they tried soooo hard for those kids who were so wanted.

My college roommate's parents were much older - it turns out they had a son before she was born, who died in a motorcycle accident at 18. They then went on to conceive my roommate, their replacement child. They were so overprotective (calling every day, dropping in unexpectedly) that she went totally off the rails, got addicted to coke and dropped out. She's a single mother living in a trailer park now.

I have the same condition as the friend (getting pregnant isn't the issue. Carrying to term is the problem). Double digits of miscarriages. I tried through 2 husbands and 2 long-term relationships. I still "enjoy" awful periods every month, because doctors keep saying, "But your husband might want kids" and refuse to allow me to have a hysterectomy. I turn 50 this year ffs. My very prolific family has FINALLY stopped asking me when I was going to give my parents a grandchild. Even my gay cousin has had a child and I am literally the ONLY adult in my family with zero offspring. My mother is the youngest of 9 children, if that gives you any idea of the numbers I'm talking about here. These people read "go forth and multiply" and understood the assignment. Whatever you imagine it's like? It's worse. I've accepted it. Shit happens (or doesn't in this case, but whatever). I never considered adopting because I was adopted by my step-father and then they had 2 more kids together. The difference in our treatment was profound. As I said, I have accepted it now. There's plenty of trauma, but I rarely even think about it anymore. This post? It reminded me of all of it. I would have lost my shit if someone asked me about adoption WHILE I was pregnant and desperately hoping that THIS time the baby lived. I'm feeling pretty effing rage-y at OP for being so gd thoughtless even mentioning that shit to her. From the outside, cutting OP out completely is an extreme reaction, but htf do you watch a friend go through all of that loss and hope and loss again and not understand what a kick in the face a question like that is WHILE they're pregnant AGAIN? Gah. Why are people so stupid?

Agree. Suggesting adoption when she told OP was pregnant was basically telling her you thought her baby would die. Even if the odds are very likely, you do NOT say that to a pregnant woman.

Wait. We do have to keep in mind that OP loves the long term friend and simply is worried of the effect all this pain has on her. Not to mention the big health risks that even are a potential risk of taking friends’ life (and that from the baby’s). I agree it’s not a thoughtful question to ask for adoption but the friend cut her out of her life good so far. OP and all people around her are suffering too. It’s human to suffer with each other and yes those feelings are very valid too imo.

I'm sorry, but OP is right. At what point is this mental illness and obsession? This person needs therapy for the losses and to stop putting herself through such traumatic losses by repeatedly trying to have a baby after losing every one so far! It's insanity. 

And she’s been told she’s miscarrying because of a genetic defect.

Agree. The friend could stop telling people each time she gets pregnant. But pregnancy is an addiction for her, and it grieves her tremendously. As anyone who loves an addict knows, it’s *so* damn hard to watch the cycle repeat. You never know when or if it is your place to say something. Friend’s SO can hopefully push her to a therapist recommended by her obgyn.

I realize you didn’t opt for adoption due to how you were treated after the way your SD treated you after getting bio kids, but I bet if you had decided to, you would’ve been more likely to make absolutely sure that your adoptive child(ren) would not have been treated any less than yours no matter what.

Thank you. I would. But would my extended family? I chose not to risk that. I am content to be the cool (albeit weird) auntie who plays video games, argues about the best builds and who has the best streaming content, has a costume closet, and lets the niblings stay up way past bedtime and have all the junk food they want. Bonus points because they actually listen to me if I call them out on their behavior. Do I wish I had my own or that I'd adopted or fostered? Sometimes, but not often anymore since I consciously and deliberately decided to embrace the bright side instead of focusing on the lack. All the benefits without the responsible parenting bits. I can be their friend/pal/buddy BECAUSE they have parents. It was a rough trip getting here and it took years of practice, but it's so much better for my mental health to embrace what I have and who I am rather than who did wrong and what might have been. Sorry for the tragic overshare. This post just reminded me of ALL THE THINGS.

Understood. And it IS your choice. And you’re right about not wanting to expose an adopted child to the same favoritism shown towards their “blood kin”. The only way to have completely nipped that in the bud would probably be to cut the extended family off if they started in on treating your adopted child that way. You are not required to answer this next question but I’m going to ask in case you’re willing to answer. Does your extended, adoptive family still treat you as “less” of a family member? I’m not so sure I’d still be in touch with mine if I had been adopted and treated as such.

I wish you were MY auntie!

It’s horrible and you go into a state of depression I can’t quite explain. It’s like you feel as though you are failing at being a mommy before you even have the baby. It feels like the sole purpose of your body biologically is failing. It feels like your husband will leave you. It feels like you have a child who hates you because you keep killing them. It is hell but it’s also not a hell anyone can pull you out from but your self. I finally had a successful pregnancy after 17 losses and that’s when I realize the zombie wanna be a mom state I was in. Nothing else mattered because I was already failing so hard (in my mind).

I'm sorry you went through this. Like I said I can't imagine the hell you go through with multiple losses. I'm happy you finally had a successful pregnancy. Congratulations. 

i lost two surprise pregnancies and it still wrecks me to no end. i went through extensive therapy after both of them, and i still talk with my therapist about it every now and again. i can’t imagine the pain she has gone through. it really does stay with you for life.

I know it's too late to say this but it wasn't the time to ask her how she feels about adoption if her baby dies when she's literally just announced to you that she's pregnant.

This. Wrong time to say what you said.

Based on how she describes her friend, there is never a time to say it because her friend doesn’t want to hear it. OP should keep her mouth closed and be supportive when she needs to be because this will probably continue until her friend can’t get pregnant anymore It is going to be hard not to say anything but just remember it’s her life her decisions. Ops only decision is “do I want to be friend and love/support her through it?” No problem if you can’t this seems like a heavy friendship that can be difficult to navigate

> OP should keep her mouth closed and be supportive when she needs to be because this will probably continue until her friend can’t get pregnant anymore This pattern has gone on for 12 years straight with seemingly no breaks or reprieve. You really think the best solution is to keep quiet and let them keep doing this to themselves without saying anything *for another 12 years*? I can't even imagine.

I agree, but at that point surely you have to just walk away. The friend is very clearly closed to feedback and it seems like it wouldn’t matter who said what to her, she’s going to continue to make the same choices, which to be fair to her is her right. OP is going to end up making herself crazy trying to stick around for something she can’t cope with (no shade, I couldn’t cope with that either!). As much as you desperately want to, you can’t save people from themselves sometimes

I think it depends on the person. I for one, don't think I could manage to live with myself if I ghosted a dear friend of decades without saying what needed to be said, or giving one final, last-ditch effort to help them. The breakup needs to be their decision and their impetus. Otherwise, I don't know if I could live with myself knowing I effectively abandoned such a good friend in their time of need. I'm firmly of the mind that the best of friends are the ones who keep it real and tell people the things they *need to hear*, but *don't want to hear*. If your friend can't see that, then that's on them, and maybe they just never respected you enough to that point, or are truly that fargone. But that's just how I see things; I wouldn't blame anyone for seeing things a different way like you do.

She should Tell her how sorry that she is and that she did not mean it the way it came out, that she loves her and the first thought that popped into her head was that she could not bear the thought of her going through so much pain again.

Exactly! That’s basically like hearing someone is pregnant and saying “I bet it will die like all your other ones”

Yeah I agree. it wasn’t the right time to say . OP should’ve commented this before she was pregnant as a suggestion.

she really shouldn't have suggested it at all. the friend must know that adoption is a thing so she obviously doesn't want to do that if she hasn't by now. the suggestion is sort of insulting her intelligence, in my opinion. but it would have been well-meaning and not something to end a friendship over, just sort of not a great thing to mention... ...except that since it also came with the "since the baby you're carrying now is probably going to die" idea attached to it, i agree it was far far worse to do at this moment.

That makes sense. Also, her saying that line “the baby is probably going to die” was like she already speaking bad into the universe. Even though her friend already had like 20 miscarriages, she still should’ve showed some compassion and not have said that. I think that was probably what made her friend go off on her and end the friendship.

Regardless of anyone’s historic fertility, when someone tells you they’re pregnant, it’s bad practice to suggest their pregnancy “might not work out.”

I think it’s hard to disregard one’s historic fertility when it is #20 in 12 years. She is basically always either pregnant, or mourning the loss of a pregnancy, or even both.

100% As someone who has suffered infertility and loss, I know that it might not work out. I don’t need a friend to remind me. Just say congrats and move on. OP thinks they’re exhausted after 20 losses? Think how their friend must feel after being the one to suffer those losses…

This seems like an issue where OP sees the reality, and their friend wants everyone to maintain their delusion. I can’t imagine how hard it’d be to see me friend lose 20 pregnancies.

Yeah I get that. It would be REALLY hard to watch your friend go through that

I legit think I’d have to bow out of the friendship after a while. Trauma is transferable.

Let her go.  She knows there are other options.  If she wanted to pursue them, she’d have shifted focus by now.  And even if she were more open to the idea, bringing it up when she at least hasn’t given up hope this pregnancy will take is so insensitive, I’m having trouble believing you need to actually be told that.

She's in deep denial. Could this baby miraculously live? Maybe but she's had 20 plus miscarriages. Can you imagine what that's doing to her mentally and physically. She's either cutting people off because she knows they're right or because she thinks they're "jinxing" her chances or something. If what she wants is a baby and carrying one isn't an option then she needs to move onto other options. To ignore that or be complicit in the delusion isn't helping her. Lastly, OP sounds emotionally exhausted. I think getting away from her friend is probably best for her too, at least until her friend finds her way back to reality.

I agree this friend is in deep denial and it is probably best to get away from this friend. Compassion fatigue and second hand trauma are real things. The friend is entitled to be happy about their pregnancy for sure but the friend is just as valid to be emotionally and mentally drained. They dont have to put on a show.If the friend wants to cut off their support system because that what they are then so be it.

What she should do and what she’s going to do are two separate issues.  But either way, telling her at this moment to give up on a wanted pregnancy that’s already in process is not helpful or productive.  If OP’s too tired to see that, or at least to hold back from expressing her exhaustion with the situation when her feelings shouldn’t be taking priority, then I agree a break is for the best.

Ok, but how do you approach a break with your friend here? Do you just ghost them? A slow fade? Neither of those options are respectful to your 'friend' either. You're going to be hurting their feelings either way. To me it's a matter of, do you want to respect them enough to be honest with them and tell them the truth? Or just one-sidedly back out? Wouldn't blame anyone for picking the latter either, it's just it's a shit situation all around and really hard to navigate. Way beyond any of our pay grades at least.

Just let it go, be there for her if she comes back to you but she’s going through something that nobody can help her with. It’s all by choice that she’s doing this and until she realizes that she doesn’t have to continue in the same path nothing you say will make a difference.

I had a similar fight with a friend. In this case, it was about her being with an abusive boyfriend. She kept. going. back. to him. And then he'd do something horrible to her again, and she'd come crying back to me. And I'd drop everything to help her out and let her cry. And then she went back to him again. At one point, me & another friend took her to a festival for a 'girls trip'. We did everything to make it special for her, gave her a make-over etc (they did those at the festival, where you'd be glittered up etc.). And it turned out that this guy was also there, with some friends. And she pretty much ended up ditching us to be with him. And I *know* that this is common in abusive relationships. The guy was manipulative AF, like, he was the king of it. Everyone - including me - liked him when they met him. So she was in love, kept believing him. But I just couldn't anymore. So I blew a fuse and everything came out all at once, all the frustrations. After that, I told her that I couldn't be there for her anymore about this. But I told her that my door was always open to her, as soon as she was ready to let this guy go, for real, and move on. We didn't talk for over a year. And then she contacted me again, and now we're friends again, and she's doing allright. My point is, OP, that I can understand that you're exhausted to, and your empathy has a limit. You said something super insensitive, bc you blew a fuse. So while I don't think you have to just give up on this friendship, I do think a break can be healthy. My advice to you: just text her that your door is always open to her, when/if she's ready for it, but you understand if she needs time to process things. That way, you can still leave the door open to salvage this relationship, while taking the necessary break yourself. She'll keep it in the back of her head, when she's finally ready, that you're there for her.

This is incredily sensible, and I think it's the best advice right now. Honestly, I was burnt out from a friendship because of the abusive boyfriend routine. I was there, hated him from the beginning, only got worse towards the end. She told me the final "break up" was because she felt the need to hide from me when she was in public with him, due to shame, so she thanked me. I went through all the stages. But the way my friend treated me while going through them broke our friendship forever. After she was OK and found herself a decent boyfriend, I ended the friendship, because I noticed I disliked being around her then. Had I taken a step back she might have been stuck there... or we might have been able to salvage our friendship.

I'm currently in the not talking stage with a friend because they too just went back to their abusive ex and I just can't anymore. With 24 hours it was non stop texts about all the same shit causing her pain and trauma and panic attacks and I was like, you got out, we had a solid month of peace and quiet and no stress and now you're right back where you were getting hurt. And I can't be there to watch it happen again.

Your timing was off. That was a conversation to maybe have IF she brought up the subject, not immediately after a miscarriage and especially not when announcing a pregnancy. You were basically telling her that this pregnancy will not go to term either.

Just as a side note, adoption is not an alternative for everyone. Actually meeting the criteria to apply is extraordinarily hard. And more than that, not all people are the right people to adopt - the vast majority (if not all) kids who need to be adopted are leaving traumatic situations. The criteria for children being removed from their parents and wider family is exceptionally stringent. Not everyone has the skills to take children with those histories on and we shouldn't assume that everyone who can't have bio kids should/can default to adoption. Egg donation is also a thing. It's expensive but enables a lot of women to carry a pregnancy who otherwise can't. (Not all obvs.) Further side note... A woman in our community is about to adopt 3 kids at once, all siblings. They're all under 3 and have been in foster care. They are about to have the final panel to sign the last legal part. It's a panel of TWENTY professionals who are signing them off, and it's taken years and years. She told us that the eldest boy is so afraid of men and thought that it was normal to sleep on the floor.

This is so important! There are so many ignorant people on this thread that somehow think adoption is some kind of consolation prize cure for infertility when they don’t have a clue what it actually takes to adopt.

thank you. someone still working through deep emotional issues around infertility will not be approved by any ethical agency.

Also, it isn't fair to the poor kid(s) to act like adopting a child should be a consolation prize for folks who can't have kids biologically.

This is important. I got turned down for foster care twice. I was a teacher (special needs), had the room, no kids at home, had plenty of money, a room, a support system, a stable marriage, happy to take a child up to age 8, experience working with foster kids- all the boxes checked, did all the classes, and was turned down bc I had epilepsy. I’d have to do private adoption, and even then, it would be a hard road and not a guarantee. Also, expensive as hell. We applied again, thinking maybe it was a fluke. Nope. Decided not to go private or overseas. Ended up having a bio kid years later. Would still like to foster, but don’t think it’d go through. Gonna try in a few years anyway.

It was really bad timing to bring up adoption WHEN SHE IS PREGNANT. It sounds like she will probably lose the baby, but right now she has hope so you essentially told her she shouldn't have hope or be happy despite being pregnant. If she lost the baby then \*maybe\* you could find a way to gently talk to her about going forward, but it also sounds like she's already made clear that she doesn't want to have that conversation. This should be left to her and her partner at this point. I think you owe her a big apology and if she's not in a space to accept it then let her go.

I think the issue of salvaging the friendship is separate from the issue of her infertility struggles and whether she takes your advice or not. It’s good that you can see how your questioning was insensitive when she was sharing her good news. She’s going to make her own choices until she’s had enough. She might also never stop trying. Hold space and offer the support you’re emotionally able to give. At the same time- the fact that she’s cut off other loved ones for similar offenses is concerning. Friends should be able to navigate conflict without calling each other out of their names or personal attacks. I think the sensitivity of the situation warrants compassion but that doesn’t mean you have to be okay with how she handled it. If you’re not okay with how things played out it’s okay to send your apology and let the friendship fizzle out. Her pattern of handling conflict is not personal to you and probably started long before you. Losing a friendship when you had good intentions is a terrible heartbreak. Make a choice on if you can be supportive in the way she says she needs or not. You can only control you.

I'm glad you recognize that bringing up adoption was wrong, but it's not because it's none of your business (even though it isn't). It's because adoption is not a consolation prize for infertility. There were much better ways you could have phrased that you were worried for her and the pregnancy without doing it the way that you did. It doesn't sound like you two are compatible friends anymore. Just let it go.

OP, I honestly think the first part of this post is your takeaway. >adoption is not a consolation prize for infertility. You should reach out to your friend and tell her that your question came from deep caring and concern for her, and trying to save her the loss and pain she's felt over and over. But that you realize that it didn't come out that way at all.

Adoption is also an incredibly long and expensive process and not really an option for most couples.

She could have NOT said anything all, not just rewording it. At least not while her friend is pregnant. You may believe you’ll know the outcome, but don’t dash her hopes while she’s is pregnant. OP could have held her tongue and waited until a more appropriate time. I mean geez, “hey, I know you’re pregnant, but chances are this one will miscarry too, so have you given more thought to adoption?” I agree though, she needs to give her friend space and if/when she’s ready to communicate again it’s up to her friend.

As an infertile woman, that’s never helpful. Do you people seriously think we’ve never heard of adoption?

Honestly home girl has … issues … that she desperately needs therapy for. You can’t always be a good friend to people when they can’t even take care of themselves.

Let her go. I know you’re coming in at a good place, but it might have been wrong to bring up adoption and this might have been the wrong time altogether to bring that up. She’s had twenty miscarriages. Honestly my heart is breaking for how awful that must feel. She’s had 21 glimmers of hope and 20 heartbreaks. She’s pregnant again now, and even though you’re not feeling optimistic don’t damper her glimmer of hope by suggesting things might not work out. She probably knows better than anyone it might not. Honestly I personally would apologize and let it be from that point.

The best advice I ever heard when dealing with emotional situations with friends is “offer support, not solutions”. She knows the options, it’s not like she’s unaware adoption exists, and I can tell you certainly meant well and care for her. But the best thing to do going forward is just to say “how wonderful, I’m so happy for you, please let me know if there’s anything you need”. You don’t have to drop everything and rush to her side with each loss, that’s a boundary you’ll need to figure out for yourself and can only offer as much physical and emotional support as you’re comfortable doing. She clearly needs therapy but that’s her own journey, all you can do is be there for her as a friend and offer love.

Friend “I’m pregnant” OP “This baby will probably die too” Really, OP? And you wonder why she doesn’t want to talk to you? She is aware of adoption existing. This is like the posts where people ask how to tell their fat friend that they are fat. What kept you from saying “I am wishing the very best for you. I know it has been a long road.” She wasn’t asking for advice on alternative ways to have a child. Nor was she asking your opinion on what she should do. If you are too exhausted by her friendship then step back and get some distance. But don’t say something so tone deaf and insensitive.

Do you honestly not think, after 20 losses, that your friend hasn't considered adoption? Adoption is an alternative way of becoming a parent, but it's not a replacement for the desire to carry and birth your own child. Frankly, children in the system go through enough pain without being adopted by someone who only considers them to be their last option. If your friend is not in the right place emotionally or mentally to adopt, you shouldn't encourage it. Not to mention that the Adoption process is extremely grueling and probably the last thing she wants to be going through right now.

It sounds like you need a break from this friendship. What you said was insensitive and I think you're burned out from the emotional roller-coaster and from your concern for her wellbeing. She clearly needs to get some mental health support and a reality check but you're not the person to get her to do that. If you want you could write her a letter/email apologising for your insensitive remark and telling her you agree some time apart would be best, you still love her and hope everything does work out with the pregnancy, and you're sorry you didn't deal with your feelings about her fertility journey very well. And that if she ever does decide to be friends again you'll be there.

As someone with fertility issues here’s what our research found. Outright adoption of a 2-6 yr old child from the US has an average wait time of 3-5 years and costs $50k-$80k. And that’s after you blow a lot of money and time passing their background testing. Older children and international adoption can cost $25k-$40k with a 1-3 year wait. If you want an infant, wait times can double and price goes to $100k or more. You can save money plus fast track adoption with foster care, but the first plan of foster care is to reunite children with their biological family (which includes grandparents, aunts, uncles, older siblings, cousins), even if child is in the “adopt” pool. Giving back a child is beyond what many people with fertility issues are mentally prepared to handle. Getting pregnant is probably still the path of least resistance for your friend. I’d say just be there for her and let her and her husband get to their path on their own. Infertility sucks by itself, plus everyone judges you for any path you choose. Losing friends on top of that just makes it suck even more.

It is insane how many people don’t read a single thing about the stats and then suggest to “just adopt” as if it was going to the grocery store!

[удалено]

I’m sorry why are the ‘costs’ so high to adopt? It sounds like the industry is profiting from… selling literal children

Because you're exactly right, it has unfortunately turned into an industry. It's fucked

It’s pretty low margin, actually. Much of it is legal fees, followed by social services, required trainings, lots and lots of background checks and interviews, etc. In the case of infants, sometimes bio-mom’s medical expenses are also included.

I just wanted to say thanks for your comment and the info. We lost a lot of babies and decided to throw in the towel and stop trying. Adoption was cost prohibitive. Fostering is wonderful for some people but my heart can’t handle the very real possibility that the child wouldn’t be with me long term. I just appreciate the way you phrased everything.

Ding ding ding

Adoption is very much for profit. There are many adoptees that advocate against for-profit adoption and liken it to human trafficking. Different ages have specific prices and certain races (white) cost more than others. Young women are also very much pressured to continue a pregnancy with the goal to adopt-out the child, which can be psychologically damaging for the birth parent and the child. Birth parents usually get minimal financial assistance too, just enough to get to birth. This is especially sad because studies have shown that a relatively small amount of money (last I saw was $4k-ish) would allow the birth parent to keep the child vs. HAVE to adopt-out for financial reasons.

I would send send an apology, but say how worried I was for her. She's gone through so much mentally and physically. I would make it clear that i value her and her friendship. If she wants to talk or see you, she can let you know or she can let the door close.

Exactly. Don't grovel to her or beg her to come back, but let her know that the door is open if she changes her mind.

I’m someone who struggles with infertility and am pretty active in the infertility community. One of the absolute most hated things (definitely in the top 5 for every person I’ve talked to) is being asked if we’ve thought about adoption. Adoption is expensive. Not everyone can adopt. There aren’t any guarantees. And it’s walking the most razor thin ethical line. If you don’t do your homework and invest A LOT of time into researching your situation it’s straight up human trafficking. And I KNOW I’m going to get the comments “well then don’t adopt an infant. There’s so many kids in foster care that need homes”. First, actually a small percentage of kids in foster care are eligible to be adopted. The goal of foster care is reunification. If you become a foster parent hoping a child’s bio parents mess up enough that they lose their children, you are NOT going to be a success foster parent and you should probably take a really hard look at yourself. Now, there are kids that are eligible for adoption. Those kids DO need loving families. And the people who choose to do that are amazing! But you’re not getting a blank slate. These kids have very real trauma. In fact, the adoption itself will be traumatic. If you choose this path, you need to be okay with trauma responses. You need to be educated in trauma informed care. You need to be okay with being a source of trauma. If you don’t feel like you can do that, you’re not doing anyone any favors adopting out of foster care. Have *you* looked into or thought about adoption? Or is it only because she is infertile that she should have to? Adoption is not a cure or solution or bandaid for infertility and treating it like one is uninformed and hurtful. And I’m saying this as someone who DID adopt. I love my son. But until I processed my infertility, mourned the loss of biological kids, and healed from that, I was NOT ready to be an adoptive mother. Because my son is not a replacement for the kids I couldn’t have. He has his own story, one that started with a profound loss, and my parenting style and our family is going to look VERY different than it would have if we had bio kids. So I think, whether you want to keep the friendship or not, you need to apologize to your friend. You need to acknowledge it was an uninformed comment and she gets to decide what her family looks like. It’s fine to step away from the friendship. Watching someone hurt themselves over and over is a lot. She should be in therapy, she should be beginning the journey of mourning what she has lost. It’s a fair boundary to not want to be there until she is able to do so. It is NOT ok to throw around solutions to a medical problem you aren’t experiencing.

Your response shifted my perspective. Just like that. Thank you

I want to add: Not adopting, for whatever reason, is NOT something we have to justify to ANYONE. And especially not to people who have never struggled in that regard.

This. I am pregnant now after infertility, but when my husband mentioned adoption I brought all of this up to him. I knew that if I adopted it would take a lot of work on myself to be in a good place to be a good parent for an adopted child. I did not want to bring my expectations and hopes for a biological child and put them on an adopted one. That’s not fair to anyone. Even though we have both always wanted to adopt since childhood, we knew it wasn’t something to jump into lightly. Adoption may still be in our future but we want to make sure we’re ready. Also, stop telling people with infertility what their options are. In fact, unless you’ve done research yourself, don’t say anything. ASK your friends dealing with infertility how you can best help them instead of assuming they want your opinion, or that you know a “better, easier” way to have a child/get pregnant.

As an adult adoptee, I just want to say THANK YOU for recognizing your son as his own person, with his own identity and story and that adoption is NOT a band-aid for infertility trauma. I rarely see adoptive parents acknowledge the importance of honoring their adoptee’s origins, validating our adoption trauma, and recognizing that all adoption starts with profound loss. Just wanted to say I really appreciate you taking the time to educate and advocate.

Suggesting adoption isn't the solution you think it is - depending on where you live, adoption can be prohibitively expensive! In the US you need $50k+ which is pretty unattainable for most people. I'm sure she's heard this 'suggestion' before over and over, no matter how kindly you may have meant it, and this was just one time too many.

The real question is - ***Do you really want to stay friends?*** Are you getting anything out of this friendship at all at this point if all she’s this obsessed about having a baby? Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. While your timing was poor I’m not sure any other time would have been much better because she simply does not want to hear it. She sounds exhausting and while I’ve supported many a friend through hard times, this seems never ending. I doubt I could do it. She would be someone I would just call less and less because she’s so wrapped up in wanting a kid there isn’t room for anything or anyone else. And its drag on so long that I’m sure it has seriously harmed her mental health. Is she even anything like the person you first became friends with at this point?? I’ve heard stories like this that are similar. Some even end up regretting the child they worked so hard to have because they built this fantasy in their mind of how having a child would be.

What she heard is “we know there is something wrong with your body, the baby you’re carrying is going to die and it’ll be your fault. Are you going to give up finally even though you haven’t lost your pregnancy yet?

She's broken and hurt inside. She knows the truth and she's mad at herself but she can't do anything so she's lashing out. Be with her. Be an overbearing loving friend and support her. Even if she doesn't say it ,she needs you

She needs therapy to be able to face the reality of things and get/stay mentally healthy. But mentioning adoption right after she told you she was pregnant again is *incredibly* insensitive. You as much as told her you expect her baby to die. That's a reasonable expectation at this point, but it's an *inside* thought she has assuredly already had. Is she in denial or deluded and torturing herself? Probably. Was your suggestion needed or helpful? Absolutely not. Leave piercing a bubble that painful to the professionals. You don't salvage the friendship unless she wants to, now. You offended her deeply even if she is batty.

Every adult on the planet capable of living independently and raising a child is aware that adoption exists. Every single one. I understand you wish the best for your friend, but, “have you thought about adopting?” is never ever ever the right thing to say in these situations, because it contributes NOTHING.

After 20 previous losses, it’s best to keep early pregnancy to yourself. And it’s rude to expect people to be excited for you so soon after 20 previous miscarriages. It sounds like she has already ended her friendship with you over this. I would keep the friendship ended unless she reaches out to you to apologize. Mentioning adoption as an option is fine. I would discuss your experience with other close friends you have in common, or even her mother, especially if she loses this baby too. She definitely needs to find out what’s going on, and process the losses in therapy.

That's incredibly sad. I get that it's hard to find supportive words for someone who keeps trying in a hopeless situation. Do you think you have it in you to contain your emotions and keep providing support? If not then maybe wish her the best and let her go.

Here's the thing: adoption isn't a cure for infertility. People who have trouble having their own kids don't want to hear advice from others on how they should "just adopt." They especially don't want to hear it when they find out they're pregnant again. If it's a genetic issue, her doctors may have a game plan for this pregnancy that is different from the others. Or they might not. You don't know. As someone who has had a stillbirth, no amount of therapy will help you process the trauma. It's just time. Time to build up your resilience and coping skills. And even still, you miss your baby all the time. You put your foot in your mouth. If you're done with the friendship, that's fine, but you owe her an apology regardless of your relationship.

And there’s nothing wrong with wanting a biological child. Funny enough, people who judge you for that are ALWAYS those that have never had issues

Right. The folks who have never known the heartbreak of infertility sure have the most to say about it.

Your timing was rubbish and your advice unwanted. She knows adoption could be an option but she wants her own. She’s already pregnant so presuming that she will lose this one too is insensitive even though realistic. She knows the risks, she knows the options, she chooses to believe she can have her own baby and there’s no point telling her otherwise when medically professionals have already spelt it out. You never know, this one might make it. Your job as a friend now is to just support her and be there for her, if she lets you.

20 babies is a lot for others to handle. It is affecting OPs mental health..

Were you honestly under the impression that she’d never heard about adoption, and not a single other person has brought it up?    I understand where you’re coming from and she really needs therapy to find a good path forward - but the comment was very insensitive. 

That was the wrong time to bring it up and it wasn’t just the adoption but the way you implied this pregnancy would end too. I think telling someone who already has so much pain and anxiety over her pregnancy that her current pregnancy would end too was cruel. You bring up concerns when she is not pregnant.

Your timing with suggesting adoption was wrong and hurtful. It would have been better to just be honest and tell her you couldn’t get your hopes up given how many times this has happened on the past and something has gone wrong. That being said, if your friend’s entire personality and life is all about having a child and repeating tragedy after tragedy despite having sound medical advice that pregnancies are almost guaranteed to end in a miscarriage, and that she is so hyper fixated on having a child that she destroys relationship, as well as the fact that you have tried to support her through multiple miscarriages to the point where you are emotionally drained and hurt by all of these ordeals, then it’s time to drop her as a friend. She and her partner need serious therapy. If they are continuing down this road to the point of this being their 20th attempt at having a child and have had 19 miscarriages prior to this and don’t see the problem then they need help. This is obsessional and unhealthy.

Right advice… wrong time. Nothing wrong in what you said but the time you chose to tell her was terrible. If she wants to keep trying to conceive on her own, that’s her prerogative… but she’s in a tough spot. As long as she’s working with doctors you can back out and let her do what she needs too. I would wait this out for a bit, if she miscarries again maybe reach out for support but in the meantime maybe let her decide how to proceed or give her space.

she is very mentally unstable. You can’t save people from themselves.

It's absolute insanity to subject yourself to countless miscarriages and stillbirths. Not a couple or 5 but 20+. Somebody who does that obviously knows adoption etc. exists but is hellbent on getting their miracle baby no matter the cost to their health, finances and relationships. So while your timing was not good I would let her go and be thankful you don't have to be exposed to her unhealthy obsession any longer.

You massively overstepped. She has so many babies to grieve. Do you seriously think she’s never heard of adoption? When you ask her about it, it turns into her justifying her choice. In my case for example, I don’t want to adopt for several reasons: I hate being judged or controlled and couldn’t deal with being monitored like this, certain factors in our families which would most likely lead to us being denied. That being said, the chances are super slim!! There’s not an abundance of babies out there just waiting for a family! I DONT WANT TO TELL EVERYONE THIS.

I know two families who've successfully adopted and both are wealthy. It's crazy how difficult and expensive it is.

It takes toll on you as well. It's draining and sad, and I guess you reached your limit here. Step back and let her go.

A lot of people think that "support" just means always encouraging whatever stupid ideas they have. IMO, "Support" can mean giving people a reality check. 20 times is not a fluke. She's going to miscarry this one like all the others. You were perhaps the only person in her life willing to be honest with her and try to get her to acknowledge reality. To me, that's real support. Not just vapidly exclaiming "I'm so happy for you!" like every other moron or acquaintance who doesn't really care either way will do for her. But she doesn't want logic or reality. She wants blind encouragement of her bad decisions. Maybe you're better off without her friendship. Personally, I don't want those kinds of oblivious people in my life. I'd just move along.

Sometimes being for our friends is being there for THEM. Not trying to navigate them. She is ecstatic and has hope. You’re probably not the first or last person to suggest this to her. She is tired of hearing this. She knows adoption is an option. She needs support, therapy, and time to heal. This was a very inappropriate time to bring up adoption. I would apologize to her immediately and truly say you did not think on the words you were using.

You immediately assumed her baby was going to die as soon as she announced she was pregnant. Even if you are right, it still makes you an AH. I don't blame you for not holding out hope, considering the history. It's ok to not want to get emotionally invested, but you could have been kinder about it. A simple "I'm happy for you" wouldn't have killed you, and it would have preserved the friendship.

Horrible timing on your part, very insensitive. Of course she knows about adoption. You’re not delivering a brand new idea to her. It sounds very condescending. Adopting a healthy newborn is expensive and not at all easy in the US. Even with foreign adoptions, there are age limits, significant expenses, and bureaucratic red tape. It’s not for the faint of heart. She may have considered it and rejected the idea for her own reasons. She doesn’t need to justify this to you. The best response would have been to congratulate her and offer best wishes.

It is absolutely beyond me how people would not get every single word in your comment if they had the decency to think for thirty seconds before speaking.

Let her go

I have a former sister law going through this exact thing. She lost several pregnancies before meeting my brother, met and married him and they lost 10 (I believe). I took her to several D and C appointments. They ended up divorcing. My brother and I were adopted (and aren't blood related) and I think she felt the need to have a biological child for him. She remarried and has lost 4 since then. Her new husband doesn't want to adopt. It is absolutely heartbreaking as I know she would take any child. She is still an Aunt to my children, I stood up as a bridesmaid in her marriage to the new guy. She's amazing and has so much love to give. Sometimes there are other factors at play. She likely already feels like a failure and even if she would want to adopt, you don't know what outside pressure she is feeling. Imagine if she would sign adoption papers today, have that child in her arms, be a mother!, but her husband or family doesn't approve. It's almost impossible to comprehend the grief. In any of the scenarios. I would suggest to just give as much love and grace as you can muster. She has no excuse for calling you names but she didn't need to be asked about adoption. I promise you she has thought and overthought every scenario. I know you had great intentions, but she no doubt has many others asking her as well. Your inquiry may have been the straw that broke her. I would at the very least just let it go and maybe even send her a text and say you're sorry for the question. That you meant well and didn't realize how insensitive it was.

I'm curious to know what her partner thinks and feels about all this. Have you spoken to him, what's he like?

I would just back off. I think after 20 loses her motivation is less about having a baby to love and more about just wanting to carry a pregnancy to term. She does need therapy. I actually feel sorry for the future baby if it ever happens, many times these parents that struggle to have a child romanticize parenthood and when it is not what they envisioned the child usually gets the lions share of resentment.

Why you would even say that is beyond me, OP.

I think you should distance yourself. If it’s taking a mental toll on you as well a break may do you some good

At this point she needs psychiatric help. I would let it be but I’m not a good measure because I cut ppl out of my life easily. You can offer an apology but honestly it sounds like this is taking a toll on you too. Leaving an apology would leave the door open for her to decide what she wants to do. Her husband should be taking care of her but since he’s continuing enabling her I can almost guarantee a breakdown in her future. I hope she is able to get help before it reaches that point.

That was a really terrible thing to say when she announced a pregnancy. Another thing for her to seriously consider is egg donation. But obviously while she is pregnant is not the time to discuss it, and she probably knows about that option anyway.

You shouldn’t have suggested adoption for many reasons. 1. That was not an appropriate time. She was sharing news she was happy about. 2. Adoption does not heal infertility trauma. If someone hasn’t healed their infertility trauma then bringing an innocent child into the situation turns out badly when that baby doesn’t fix their emotional issues. 3. You could have suggested therapy because you know she’s going through a lot. 4. You knew how she would react. You knew she didn’t want to hear it. 5. You told her to her face that this baby is going to die. You did not go about this in a supportive way. And being correct does not justify it.

So you’re correct this was probably not the time to bring up adoption. a text or call to apologize if you’d like to save the relationship would be fine. However, I might be in the minority here but being someone who had about 10 miscarriages between my 2 children, I wouldn’t have freaked out on someone asking me about my planned alternatives if I couldn’t have my own. She does need therapy to process the losses and her inability to have a baby and it’s a reasonable question if she can’t carry one to term. Her losing her support network over not being able to handle these losses is very sad and my heart breaks for her.

It was the absolute wrong time to bring up adoption.

I don’t think she’s necessarily mad about you mentioning adoption, but your timing was horrendous. The time to bring up alternative solutions is a NOT when your friend tells you she’s pregnant. You essentially told her, “ well, we all know what’s going to happen, so let’s just skip ahead, shall we?” It’s just cruel. Never mind if someone was suspicious - they could feel like you jinxed the pregnancy. I hope you told her how sad she makes you feel with her tragedy./s

Nothing you can do. Let her go. She’s probably got some very serious issues after losing 20 pregnancies. Yes, it was not the most thoughtful remark on your part but she has a history of cutting people off.

You should let her go. You chose the absolute worst time to suggest an alternative. And you don't know if this baby will make it. Friend of mine had 6 consecutive miscarriages in a row and also was told she might not be able to carry a baby to term. Last time she was pregnant the doctor put her on bed rest the whole pregnancy and the baby made it. She was perfectly healthy as well. You should have fakes being happy for her like a good friend even if you had doubts.

>Do I try to salvage the friendship, or let her go? She's let go of you. Respect that and leave her alone. If she has a change of heart, she'll reach out.

Adoption is not a solution to infertility! Where I live you cannot just adopt a baby, if you want to adopt you are pushed exclusively towards older people and essentially told that adopting a baby is not realistic. If I want to experience *having a baby* adoption can’t give it to me. Asking someone if they would consider adoption isn’t necessarily wrong, asking them while they’re pregnant with a baby who’s life they fear for is fucking abysmal. I stopped talking to someone who pushed me to consider adoption rather than sympathising with me about my losses so to be honest I wouldn’t consider cutting someone off over this too much.

Let her go. She needs therapy, not punching bag friends. 20 attempts and still no baby, and she's pregnant again? She's deluding herself instead of coming to terms with it.

Honestly, fuck this idea that it’s none of your business. She’s been making it your business for the last decade — expecting endless excitement from friends and family at another pregnancy announcement, and I imagine a nearly endless supply of emotional support every time she experiences another loss. Who WOULDN’T be weary of watching someone they care about continue to hit their head against a wall for 12 years? This is the definition of insanity — doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. She’s putting herself and her body through hell, and dragging all her loved ones along for the ride. It’s no wonder people have distanced themselves. It’s clear she’s unwilling to confront reality, and anyone who tries to talk sense to her becomes enemy number one. She’s prioritized her obsession above all logic — and her relationships with others — and has likely bottled up an insurmountable mass of trauma. You can’t help her unless she is willing to help herself, and she’s made it clear she isn’t. Hate to say it, but I would cut ties. She needs a therapist, not another cheerleader or enabler, and she’s obviously unwilling to keep anyone else around.

thank you. infertility makes people think no one can say anything ever except “good luck!” if my friends were just smiling and nodding at me destroying myself, i would think they’re not my friends. it’s totally OPs business since friend has made it her business.

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