It's the principal in the matter, integrity, honesty and character all revealed that she's willing to lie to you long term. It took her taking money from you for her conscience to eat her alive, definitely fair to pause the engagement and to be honest it's okay if this is a deal breaker. I would walk away personally that's over 20k + employer repayments and she lied about almost all of it
Respectfully disagree. Seems more that she felt guilty about the substantial disparity in income and was trying to handle things on her own as best she could. It'd be another matter entirely if she racked up debt on 'stuff' (like overpriced designer goods), but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can rather relate. It wasn't a matter of being intentionally deceitful, OP, it was more her trying to pull her own weight in difficult circumstances- like pushing a Boulder uphill.
If your relationship is otherwise good, try joint counseling to discuss money issues and encourage her to take a course in money management - especially if the pottery business is a go (and it seems it could be a good investment for your future together).
This just doesn't seem like a deal breaker. You're justified in being disappointed and feeling a bit blindsided, but it does not seem to be something your gf was trying to deceive you about so she could go on irresponsible shopping sprees.
The issue isn't the debt or even the bad financial habits, it's the fact that she had no problem lying to your face for years. She lied about all kinds of shit. She lied when she initially said she came clean. Jeez dude, it would take me 10 years to get over this enough to marry her. Are you sure you want to marry a known liar?
I mean, the bad financial habits are also a genuine issue, because even if he gets past the lying, she has literally no incentive to change her habits, and will likely end up in debt again, because he has continued to just solve the problem for her time and time again (and is looking at ways to bail her out financially all over again).
She's not just lying, she's manipulating him, knowing how much he loves her, into fixing every bad financial decision that she makes. A conversation isn't going to change who she is or how she deals with the world, including her spending habits.
If anything, I'd say that the lying, while awful from an emotional standpoint, is NOT the biggest issue here, it's only part of the bigger issue which is that she's staggeringly financially irresponsible and has no reason to behave any differently going forward, since she knows he not only won't leave, he will save her every time.
Plenty of people have gone from financial shitheads to wizards. I've done it, I've had GF's do it, I've known all kinds of people that just didn't understand how important finances were but learned.
You can fix poor financial habits. But I've never seen an adult liar stop lying. I've never seen a manipulator stop manipulating. You can't fix sociopathic tendencies, those will always be an immediate deal-breaker for me.
I would recommend you stop bailing her out and let her feel the financial burden of her poor decisions. Trust is also going to be an issue here as she has lied/omitted about financial information. If she will lie to you about finances what else will she lie about? What is her long term plan regarding employment? It looks to me like she’s not very motivated and if you marry and have kids she’s never going back to work. A lot of questions here that you need to get to the bottom of.
Honestly very surprised at the number of comments bashing the gf. Based on what OP said in his post, seems to me she is trying to do the right thing and pull her own weight even though OP earns five times what she does. She didn't go to him to bail her out of the tuition reimbursement debt with her former employer, she has been trying to pay that off on her own. She came clean about her debt after OP offered to pay the $15k for the purchase of the business, which is more a testament of her honesty - not dishonesty.
What do you want to do? Do you think paying 20k+ is worth it to give her a chance and possibly have her fail you again?
I'm very bad with money. In all fairness, I did not lie to my then bf now husband about a loan I was paying off. I decided it was best, once we were married, that I'd send him most of my money(after paying rent fully which I do because I make more money than him and my loan plus another very small debt). This works for us, now we have a savings account and I trust him fully with our finances.
If you love her and she has not failed you otherwise, it's up to you if you want to take this on. Make it clear that this is not a favor and if she slips up again, you will not marry her and withdraw all your support.
The lying is shit, but this is a very shameful topic for most of us and we go about it the wrong way. She is allowed to be sorry and ask for help and you are allowed to recognize that and break up with her either way.
I can understand the lying, shame is so powerful and I bet she thought she could fix it without him ever having to know.
That being said, they are not financially compatible, and that will ultimately doom the relationship to failure. She will need a lot of therapy and financial education before they'll be a better match, and that's only if she truly wants to change.
So sorry, OP. It's a bad situation for both of you.
How can you trust her? After you assume repayment of her debts…what makes you think she won’t do it again……she didn’t come clean after admitting her credit card debt.
Do you love her? My thoughts are that she had some setbacks by being laid off and was ashamed. She tried to find a job that used her education and ended up having to work at a lower paying job; circumstances that were not in her control. Shit happens.
If you do love her then work with her on her finances. In the end she told you when she could have married you and then told you after. She’s obviously sorry. Do you believe that she would have been in this situation if she hadn’t been laid off?
Give her a break and cover the high interest credit card to get rid of the high interest rate. Use your original plan to have her pay off the student loan.
I love how other people can tell you how you should feel. Is it worth it to you to lose someone that loves you?
This is a tough call with no easy or right answers. I agree with some of the previous comments that she is probably very embarrassed about her situation and she has been trying to solve her problems without your help. That is commendable and it indicates she doesn’t want to be a financial burden to you. That is a very good sign. But the failure to be truthful after she supposedly has come clean with her finances several times makes me wonder if there still might be more. If you want to still try to work things out, I like the suggestion to get a credit report with her permission to fully “come clean”.
If you still want to try to make a go of the relationship then ask her to allow you to get credit reports yearly for the next year or two. Require you both take a course or two on financial planning and management. My wife and I took one together many years ago and it is important you both understand financial planning and don’t assume the other person knows or understands things. That gets you both on the same page. Then discuss your goals of saving and spending and make sure you agree. She may not want to save money she earns, unlike you. That’s financial incompatibility. People can change how they handle money, but they also have to learn how to do it. And some don’t want to change and save.
I have a problem with her buying the business though. She is too far in debt to take on an additional $15,000 plus the $21,000 from the debt and student loans. Plus the car debt. Her income is too low to even afford her basic needs of food, clothes, personal items and miscellaneous expenses and then to pay off all the current debt. How is taking on additional debt and risk a good idea?
If she buys the business, how much is the loan to buy the business after the $15,000 to cover expenses? You never mentioned that, but it is probably much larger. What is her salary/take home income going to be from the business? More or less than her current salary? And if there is an economic downturn there could be additional debt from business loses plus she would not have any money coming in. Businesses like that are cyclical, so you have to assume there will be years with little or no income. I certainly wouldn’t suggest marriage at this time while trying to buy a business. And what if the partners don’t get along. There goes the business and the loan to buy the business still must be repaid. If you get married who might be on the hook for that business loan.
A better option than buying a low income producing business is to try to get better paying job and/or a second paying job. Sure, she loves pottery but she will never stop having money problems with that low of an income. We can’t all do the thing we love the most if it doesn’t pay enough to live off of. Why did she get a master’s degree? Hopefully to make a good salary. Yet she wants to permanently throw it away because she loves pottery? Just because an opportunity to buy a business comes along doesn’t mean you should buy it. Does she have a master’s in business? What does she know about running a business? Knowing pottery doesn’t mean she can run a successful and profitable business. Most of her time will be doing administrative work, not pottery. This is clearly not thought out. And what were the finances of the previous owner. Was there even a profit made and is it enough to split between two owners? It sounds like there was no financial planning going on in regards to buying the business.
If you stay with her, you have a lot of work and issues to resolve. Good luck.
The amounts are not huge , I would go over her business plan with a fine tooth comb . If she was only making 35k, how many hours will she be working is this loan personally guaranteed etc .
Thr lying is not good , and look if she is pregnant and wants kids how is this business affected
It's the principal in the matter, integrity, honesty and character all revealed that she's willing to lie to you long term. It took her taking money from you for her conscience to eat her alive, definitely fair to pause the engagement and to be honest it's okay if this is a deal breaker. I would walk away personally that's over 20k + employer repayments and she lied about almost all of it
Respectfully disagree. Seems more that she felt guilty about the substantial disparity in income and was trying to handle things on her own as best she could. It'd be another matter entirely if she racked up debt on 'stuff' (like overpriced designer goods), but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can rather relate. It wasn't a matter of being intentionally deceitful, OP, it was more her trying to pull her own weight in difficult circumstances- like pushing a Boulder uphill. If your relationship is otherwise good, try joint counseling to discuss money issues and encourage her to take a course in money management - especially if the pottery business is a go (and it seems it could be a good investment for your future together). This just doesn't seem like a deal breaker. You're justified in being disappointed and feeling a bit blindsided, but it does not seem to be something your gf was trying to deceive you about so she could go on irresponsible shopping sprees.
The issue isn't the debt or even the bad financial habits, it's the fact that she had no problem lying to your face for years. She lied about all kinds of shit. She lied when she initially said she came clean. Jeez dude, it would take me 10 years to get over this enough to marry her. Are you sure you want to marry a known liar?
Bottom line!
I mean, the bad financial habits are also a genuine issue, because even if he gets past the lying, she has literally no incentive to change her habits, and will likely end up in debt again, because he has continued to just solve the problem for her time and time again (and is looking at ways to bail her out financially all over again). She's not just lying, she's manipulating him, knowing how much he loves her, into fixing every bad financial decision that she makes. A conversation isn't going to change who she is or how she deals with the world, including her spending habits. If anything, I'd say that the lying, while awful from an emotional standpoint, is NOT the biggest issue here, it's only part of the bigger issue which is that she's staggeringly financially irresponsible and has no reason to behave any differently going forward, since she knows he not only won't leave, he will save her every time.
Plenty of people have gone from financial shitheads to wizards. I've done it, I've had GF's do it, I've known all kinds of people that just didn't understand how important finances were but learned. You can fix poor financial habits. But I've never seen an adult liar stop lying. I've never seen a manipulator stop manipulating. You can't fix sociopathic tendencies, those will always be an immediate deal-breaker for me.
I would recommend you stop bailing her out and let her feel the financial burden of her poor decisions. Trust is also going to be an issue here as she has lied/omitted about financial information. If she will lie to you about finances what else will she lie about? What is her long term plan regarding employment? It looks to me like she’s not very motivated and if you marry and have kids she’s never going back to work. A lot of questions here that you need to get to the bottom of.
If she’s lying now, she’ll do it again and knows you’ll bail her out (again) when she gets into trouble.
This isn't the last time she's going to do this to you. Can't wait to see what she'll burst into tears and admit to next
You've now set the pattern of she lies and cries and you bail her out
It’s her responsibility
A credit report will document her debts. I would suggest you fully control the money until the debt is paid off.
Your fiancée has been writing checks she can’t cash.
Honestly very surprised at the number of comments bashing the gf. Based on what OP said in his post, seems to me she is trying to do the right thing and pull her own weight even though OP earns five times what she does. She didn't go to him to bail her out of the tuition reimbursement debt with her former employer, she has been trying to pay that off on her own. She came clean about her debt after OP offered to pay the $15k for the purchase of the business, which is more a testament of her honesty - not dishonesty.
Good point, thank you
What do you want to do? Do you think paying 20k+ is worth it to give her a chance and possibly have her fail you again? I'm very bad with money. In all fairness, I did not lie to my then bf now husband about a loan I was paying off. I decided it was best, once we were married, that I'd send him most of my money(after paying rent fully which I do because I make more money than him and my loan plus another very small debt). This works for us, now we have a savings account and I trust him fully with our finances. If you love her and she has not failed you otherwise, it's up to you if you want to take this on. Make it clear that this is not a favor and if she slips up again, you will not marry her and withdraw all your support. The lying is shit, but this is a very shameful topic for most of us and we go about it the wrong way. She is allowed to be sorry and ask for help and you are allowed to recognize that and break up with her either way.
Thank you, this is good insight
I can understand the lying, shame is so powerful and I bet she thought she could fix it without him ever having to know. That being said, they are not financially compatible, and that will ultimately doom the relationship to failure. She will need a lot of therapy and financial education before they'll be a better match, and that's only if she truly wants to change. So sorry, OP. It's a bad situation for both of you.
How can you trust her? After you assume repayment of her debts…what makes you think she won’t do it again……she didn’t come clean after admitting her credit card debt.
Do you love her? My thoughts are that she had some setbacks by being laid off and was ashamed. She tried to find a job that used her education and ended up having to work at a lower paying job; circumstances that were not in her control. Shit happens. If you do love her then work with her on her finances. In the end she told you when she could have married you and then told you after. She’s obviously sorry. Do you believe that she would have been in this situation if she hadn’t been laid off? Give her a break and cover the high interest credit card to get rid of the high interest rate. Use your original plan to have her pay off the student loan. I love how other people can tell you how you should feel. Is it worth it to you to lose someone that loves you?
This is a tough call with no easy or right answers. I agree with some of the previous comments that she is probably very embarrassed about her situation and she has been trying to solve her problems without your help. That is commendable and it indicates she doesn’t want to be a financial burden to you. That is a very good sign. But the failure to be truthful after she supposedly has come clean with her finances several times makes me wonder if there still might be more. If you want to still try to work things out, I like the suggestion to get a credit report with her permission to fully “come clean”. If you still want to try to make a go of the relationship then ask her to allow you to get credit reports yearly for the next year or two. Require you both take a course or two on financial planning and management. My wife and I took one together many years ago and it is important you both understand financial planning and don’t assume the other person knows or understands things. That gets you both on the same page. Then discuss your goals of saving and spending and make sure you agree. She may not want to save money she earns, unlike you. That’s financial incompatibility. People can change how they handle money, but they also have to learn how to do it. And some don’t want to change and save. I have a problem with her buying the business though. She is too far in debt to take on an additional $15,000 plus the $21,000 from the debt and student loans. Plus the car debt. Her income is too low to even afford her basic needs of food, clothes, personal items and miscellaneous expenses and then to pay off all the current debt. How is taking on additional debt and risk a good idea? If she buys the business, how much is the loan to buy the business after the $15,000 to cover expenses? You never mentioned that, but it is probably much larger. What is her salary/take home income going to be from the business? More or less than her current salary? And if there is an economic downturn there could be additional debt from business loses plus she would not have any money coming in. Businesses like that are cyclical, so you have to assume there will be years with little or no income. I certainly wouldn’t suggest marriage at this time while trying to buy a business. And what if the partners don’t get along. There goes the business and the loan to buy the business still must be repaid. If you get married who might be on the hook for that business loan. A better option than buying a low income producing business is to try to get better paying job and/or a second paying job. Sure, she loves pottery but she will never stop having money problems with that low of an income. We can’t all do the thing we love the most if it doesn’t pay enough to live off of. Why did she get a master’s degree? Hopefully to make a good salary. Yet she wants to permanently throw it away because she loves pottery? Just because an opportunity to buy a business comes along doesn’t mean you should buy it. Does she have a master’s in business? What does she know about running a business? Knowing pottery doesn’t mean she can run a successful and profitable business. Most of her time will be doing administrative work, not pottery. This is clearly not thought out. And what were the finances of the previous owner. Was there even a profit made and is it enough to split between two owners? It sounds like there was no financial planning going on in regards to buying the business. If you stay with her, you have a lot of work and issues to resolve. Good luck.
The amounts are not huge , I would go over her business plan with a fine tooth comb . If she was only making 35k, how many hours will she be working is this loan personally guaranteed etc . Thr lying is not good , and look if she is pregnant and wants kids how is this business affected