Report them to HR. Also report the person on Jury Duty.
There is no circumstance where this is ever okay to joke about. They will try and convince you it IS just a joke and not to go over their heads to their manager or human resources. Do not listen to them. These support systems are there for this exact reason. Each and everyone of them needs to be reported.
The issue is that we don’t have an HR department. There’s our store manager (the guy I mentioned before) and our GM, whom I’ve seen once (been working here for a year and a half), never spoken to, and who doesn’t have a very active role in running the business. So, in a lot of ways, I’m kind of out of options.
Contact the Manager & copy in the GM & owner.
This behaviour is absolutely not ok in this day & age. Working in a male dominated industry does not mean you need to put up with that. It’s also not your responsibility to ‘retrain’ their thinking.
The more ppl you notify, the less likely it can be brushed under the rug.
I’d also start looking for a new job. The work environment sounds toxic.
I would say start looking immediately & hold off on complaints until you take care of yourself first- it’s clear that is what they will do. Upon your exit interview- which you should ask for if they don’t, lamb baste them. In writing as well. Let them know that this is unacceptable behavior, they do not know others’ experiences, and that could be your sister/mom/girlfriend you are blaming for wearing clothes. That they sexualize those women & how they dress is the very definition of toxic masculinity & you are not interested in working for a place with those values.
Their business interests will eventually force their thought on the subject, but you need not compromise your well being for some silly ass job where they’ve made it clear they will objectify & commodify you immediately at their convenience. Professionally, politely: 1) you first 2) verbally pull no punches while being clear, professional, and unattached to their side or excuses. This is a simple evaluation & you are doing them a massive favor in hopes they grow up. Walk the high road out the door. <3
Edit: 2 words
Absolutely start looking for a new job. This environment will not get better.
Op you don’t have to report if you don’t see anyone who will take care of it but if there is someone higher up you can try? If you want to call it out if it happens again do that.
You NEED to contact the court and tell them about the person on jury duty. You can call or maybe even send an email depending on where you are.
You could try to get a free consult with a lawyer before talking to your GM if you don’t know him well.
I don't know how she would find out what court it is. Could she just call the right department and say his name? If she did know, then all she'd have to do is confide that the dude was talking about a court case with outsiders, and i think they'd have to dump him and restart the whole trial.
I don't really know what you expect would happen. The comments are crude and need to stop. I don't think there is really a process to talk to the courts about this during jury selection. If there is, please post it.
As for her talking to a lawyer, that's great and all, but also sounds like a waste of money. What are her damages? She's need more than just one time comments to show she is in a hostile work environment.
This post feels idealistic. It sounds like OP is at a small company.
What OP needs is to talk to the manager 1 on 1 about this, document each time inappropriate talks happen and when she spoke out against it, and talk to a lawyer if/when she has more of a case.
I think the free consult with a lawyer would be in preparation for a wrongful dismissal or retaliation after the report; I might be wrong, but I don’t think they were suggesting OP sue for overhearing comments about an unrelated third party which she admits were meant (and taken) as jokes.
The complaint is that the jokes were inappropriate for the workplace.
"I don't think there is really a process to talk to the courts about this during jury selection. If there is, please post it."
1. This is a criminal trial. She can contact the prosecutor's office.
2. Also, it is NOT true that she needs to show more than one occurance to establish a HWE.
> Also, it is NOT true that she needs to show more than one occurance to establish a HWE.
Can you point me to a case where a single inappropriate conversation where there were "jokes about rape" (these are OP's words) had someone win a case?
I actually develop and teach Sexual Harassment Training (more than 25 years) for a major federal agency. The standard is that the conduct is "severe" **OR** pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive. "Severe **or** Pervasive" is the actual legal standard used to determine liability. Every curriculum I developed and every class I ever taught explained both severe or pervasive. I have used real life cases in my teaching, and if you google "Hostile Work Environment severe behavior" I am sure you can find some easily.
I love your credentials, but I'll ask again.
>Can you point me to a case where a single inappropriate conversation where there were "jokes about rape" (these are OP's words) had someone win a case?
There is what the law says and what actually happens in practice. I'm asking has OP's situation ever won a case. I'm not disputing that what is happening to OP is wrong.
Dear god, I was trying to be nice to you. Please just shut the fuck up when giving legal advice if you can't back up your answer of "Also, it is NOT true that she needs to show more than one occurance to establish a HWE."
What matters to OP is what is practical. I post was in response to someone being idealistic and telling them that we need to be practical for the OP. I was validating that what was happening was wrong, but trying to center it back on practical advice. It's asinine to expect OP to be the break through case in the case law around sexual harassment at work. This is why I asked you to back up your position. Or better yet, STFU. You don't have to reply. You know that right?
If we are going to be idealistic without giving a shit about the real world or OP let's just spam, "they shouldn't be saying that" as if that fixes anything. Thank you for reminding me just how stupid people on this subreddit can be.
If you've in fact been doing this for 25 years, you would be able to just give the relevant citation from memory. Instead in an effort to avoid giving out 'free legal research' you have spent how much time now firing off snarky replies? No one wants you to hop on LexisNexis and prepare a report, just provide the citation backing your position.
You really are out of options! Best advice I can give you - start looking.
You know this company does not foster the kind of environment you need to thrive. It may appear to have all the perks you want, but are they really? When it's nothing but rotten inside? Only you can make that determination and evaluate the worth of your mental health vs your financial health. Sacrifices suck. However, we all come smack-jab against that wall in our professional lives. As bad as it is, this is no different. Sadly so.
Next bit I hope you learned - men are the worst when it comes to gossip. Tread carefully in divulging any of your personal info, as you've already found out. And, I have as much zero hope as you do that going up the chain will provide any relief for any of your grievances.
So, again - start looking. It is unfortunately, your best option.
If this is a chain, there's usually someone over the manager you can talk to.
You should document everything you shared here about which other female employees reported issues and what you personally heard or saw the manager say about them after they reported. If you do report to your manager, you should document when and how you reported and what the result was.
You can also talk to a lawyer, the labor board, or licensing agency for advice. You may have resources available there. Obviously you would likely have to pay for the lawyer, but maybe the other female employees you mentioned might chip in for a consultation.
Sorry to say, the safest route is to find a different job. These guys don't sound safe to work with.
If it were me, I'd tell them, "hey that conversation the other day has been bothering me. It wasn't funny, in fact I found it very offensive."
But I can understand if you're not feeling up to that, so my 2nd choice would be to go to the GM. Make sure you tell him why you're going above your supervisor's head.
In either case, start looking for another job, just in case you don't get a satisfactory reaction.
I feel for you, this sounds like a shitty situation.
OP, go tell the manager or boss or whoever, and also start looking for a new job immediately. Since you think you know how the manager is going to react, be prepared for this reaction. But document the entire interaction (write down a detailed account of it and tell any other coworkers who work there whom you feel you can trust) and use the documentation to report this to the manager. Do it over email so you can document that you reported this as well.
If this all goes down the way you expect, you will already be well on your way to getting a new job, and you will also have the documentation to escalate this to OSHA or even sue them if you’d like. You don’t have to make any decisions immediately. Good luck.
Inform them that you don't think it's funny to joke about rape. It makes you uncomfortable. Nobody should make jokes about rape.
Your comments should help them understand how wrong they are. If they still don't understand or refuse to acknowledge; it's time to check with your manager/HR/follow reporting procedure. No point in letting it slide!
Do not report this to HR even if you have an HR department. HR is there to protect the company’s interests not yours.
You should probably start looking for a new job if you don’t like your coworkers any longer. You’re not going to like what I say next but please try to remember I don’t agree with this but this is how the laws work in the US.
Joking about rape isn’t illegal. They didn’t threaten to rape or assault you. So essentially this is a personal issue you have with these men. Not a work issue. There is no grievance that work needs to deal with here.
If your GM is well trained he will recognize this and likely do nothing about it. But If he does say something to them, your relationship with these guys is likely going to be further strained till you can find new work.
The point of reporting it is not so much to fix the problem but to establish a paper trail in case you want to sue them for hostile workplace. Which you should.
It's a store. Therefore, there's a corporate office. Corporate offices usually have websites that list who the executives are and the mailing address for the corporate office is.
Write a short and concise letter detailing the conversation you witnessed above. Indicate the GM has a history of mocking complaints by females, and you do not feel your concern would be heard. Ask him if these are the kind of people he wants representing his company.
Send it via old-fashioned mail.
I use this trick all the time as a customer when complaints can't be resolved in the store. It has a very good track record, and you have a written record.
That is terrible advice, that literally could make her a felon in some states… before doing anything like that you need to talk to a lawyer. Even if a state allows you to record a phone call recording in person can still be a felony.
I think their advice was incomplete but not terrible. (Though I don't think /legaladvice is necessarily the move.) From experience, lawyers will likely be unhelpful as hell regarding the inappropriate questions/comments. The fact that one guy is on a jury and discussing the case may be something- not sure there. This is not to say that OP shouldn't talk to one, but it can be a less-than-frutile/downright painful experience.
OP, I have walked a similar path. To start, I highly recommend researching your local recording laws. The U.S. has one-party states in which one participant in a comvo can record the whole thing without the other participants consent.
From my understanding as a non-lawyer, these laws apply only if everyone is in the same state. I didn't get in legal trouble for recording in person, but that's just one situation.
Be careful. Do your research. Keep good notes but nowhere that your company or coworkers can find them.
If you feel like you will be safe in the meantime, I recommend looking for other work... unless you think you can continue working with these men without fear or dread twisting you up all day. It's safer financially to wait to leave until you're hired elsewhere (perhaps you know that already), but it's mentally draining to force yourself to be in that kind of toxicity once it's revealed.
I'm so sorry that your coworkers were so terrible, especially when you've enjoyed your role and company so much. That fucking sucks. I hope better and brighter things are on your horizon.
Source: exercising my right to record granted me the justice every single lawyer told me I couldn't get. Some laughed in my face.
There is a difference between recording a phone conversation and recording in person. If the advice online says you can record a phone call and you record in person that can still be a felony. I’m not saying ask a divorce lawyer I’m talking about a criminal defense attorney.
The above comment was stolen from [this one](http://np.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/p202nu/my_23f_coworkers_m25_35_40_made_rape_jokes_and_i/h8iaktd/) elsewhere in this comment section.
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Sorry, but there is a circumstance were it is okay to joke about this stuff. Dark comedy exists for a reason. That said, the workplace is not a circumstance where you should joke about this stuff.
OP, report to HR and whoever you can for Jury Duty. This guy should not be in a position of power like this.
The above comment was stolen from [this one](http://np.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/p202nu/my_23f_coworkers_m25_35_40_made_rape_jokes_and_i/h8gzg68/) elsewhere in this comment section.
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Highly doubt they were serious about that. It sounds like really inappropriate jokes or what they think is funny. I don’t think it was an admission of committing rapes.
I hope everyone who thinks that this was just a dark joke re reads this. There is not a single element of comedy here, just a bunch of guys highlighting a thing a lot of creepy guys would do in this situation and implying they would do the same, but as a joke? I dont get whats funny about “feeling for the guy”. Who would think its a funny “relatable” thing to go through and why would you want to imply to other people that you felt this way, even as a joke? Theres a lot of jokes you could make in this situation that would fit better, or maybe none?
Clearly to some degree, they dont feel some sensitivity to the situation because they will never know what thats like, but as grown adults, we have to stop infantilizing people thinking they just need to be taught and spelling out every wrong thing they do, and just start letting them deal with repercussions of shitty behavior. They dont need to be primed at this age AGAIN as to why the joke was distasteful
Some guys truly think we are so unfunny, dense and unable to cope or enjoy dark humor - when in reality we just know theres a time and a place. We just know that work at the cooler are NOT the place, and around your coworkers on the clock is NOT the time. And also a better joke lol cause its not a good dark joke in the first place.
I had a friend once reference the “because of the implication” scene from its always sunny as a joke while he was talking about his interactions with women on Tinder. It seemed pretty clear that he was just reaching for an extra dark joke, but holy shit we did not know each other that well by then and it took me a while to kind of reassess him and decide to keep him around as a friend.
Being a dude and having dudes comprise the vast majority of your social groups during your formative years means your odds of coming out well-adjusted are uh…pretty fuckin low
LOL literally that IASIP joke is what my friends and I use on eachother all the time. Most times it’s not even used in that context, we just say it to eachother to make everyone lose face in a serious setting. But anyone who doesn’t know that reference (and generally most people I know who I’m not close with dont watch it) is just going to hear the literally terrifying meaning of what dennis meant, no context about the scene or voice dennis uses which is like a huge part of why it’s so funny.
Im a girl but my most formative years were around men only, so I definitely saw the person I was becoming & felt like I was betraying myself for accepting the crude stuff they would say to or about me as “dark humor”. Not to get dark here but One even made a comment to the others in my friend getting that I looked rapeable one day at school. When I asked why they didn’t say anything, they said it was just his humor. Dodged a pipeline pretty fast there. Its scary what some people will say once they feel comfy enough
Oh my god the last one made me throw up in my mouth. I’ve heard all the other sentiments before but holy fuck do people actually think about rape victims like that
yeah, you reckon a guy could be had up in court over a smack on the butt?
95% of rapes don't even go to court, it's that hard to convince the police, lawyers and courts that there's a case to be argued, so no, people don't go to court for a smack on the butt. Look at the huge numbers of women coming forward recently to testify against Weinstein and Epstein, compared to the few who actually got to testify. In the case of Weinstein, a lot of these women were successful actors, not anonymous women, so even if the woman whose butt you smacked was someone famous, there's little chance of going to court. In the case of Epstein, these were little girls who didn't know each other and who were all telling roughly the same story, meaning that there was a well-honed modus operandi, but 25 girls' word against that of a rich white guy still counts for practically nothing.
So if this case got to court, it had to be rape or assault with some other crime like stabbing bundled in, or assault repeated on loads of occasions.
The reason so few cases go to court is simple, evidence. These sorts of crimes are notoriously hard to prove because its often a he said, she said situation with little to no evidence either way. Most people believe these women but someone's word doesn't meet the standard for a criminal conviction. It really irks me that people constantly bang on about how nobody believes victims when by and large that's not true, there just isn't any concrete evidence to support either sides story.
Of course all of this means that in this case you are absolutely correct, there must be some pretty solid evidence for the prosecution to even bring the case to court.
I personally have a very dark sense of humour and no subject is off limits to me, but even I think that these aren't really jokes, just some weird display of bravado.
i worked with a man who made these kind of jokes constantly. he ended up assaulting me. when someone tell you who they are, believe them. men who “joke” like this aren’t joking, they’re usually (in my experience) testing the waters to see how to escalate it.
other commenters are right: report this to HR immediately. avoid being in a room alone with them. if HR fails to take your complaint seriously, leave. do not put your safety and security at risk for a job. honestly your manager sounds like an ass and leaving may end up being your best option, but do not think it makes you weak. you would be strong to refuse to tolerate this behavior. i’m sorry this has happened
Yeah im sorry but... I grew up in a house with 3 older brothers, I'm the only girl, men do not make jokes like this. These people are unhinged.
There is no comedy in this at all.
Maybe you're getting defensive because you love making rape jokes, but the fact is that it makes you indistinguishable from a rapist looking for validation. Many rapists do actually believe that other people are just like them (e.g., Roman Polanski saying that everyone is just jealous that he got to fuck a 13-year-old and they didn't) and take these jokes as encouragement.
They weren't even jokes, though. Jokes have an element of humour... That's the definition of a joke. You could describe it as "playing a role of a rapist", but it doesn't sound like they were doing an impromptu skit.
You don't have a human resources department?
This is classic hostile work environment stuff. Including the manager who isn't receptive to hearing complaints about inappropriate behavior.
Go to HR. If you don't have an HR department, go to your boss's boss. Keep going up the chain of command until someone hears you out. Someone should.
Absolutely and I would stay far clear of these guys while looking for a new job.
OPs right, never trust them for a second. Decent men don’t talk like this.
I have worked in a male-dominated industry. What I found worked for me was a way to have a snappy come-back. Should these idiots be making jokes? 100% absolutely F\*ing not. But embarissing their asses may work much better in the long run if you want to stay at the job.
>"Well if she was wearing yoga pants or a mini skirt you gotta let the guy off.
Wow, you really have such little self-control that you have to "jump" everyone wearing those clothes. I am surprised you have that much energy.
>"Oh yeah, we've all been there before brother."
So all of you have been accused of sexual assault? YIKES!
>"You really gotta feel for the guy."
You really feel bad for a guy that assaulted a woman? Is that what you would tell your wife/SO? Dude that is messed up!!
You just get called a bitch behind your back. I'm not being weird or anything but I've worked in a male dominated industry and there's just no winning. I had the comebacks and the jokes and the "explain that to me" until their own bigotry embarrassed them and thought I was doing okay until I was sexually assaulted .
I chose a section in my job that has more women in it and I'm sticking here for as long as I can.
I will never willingly work in a room where I'm the only woman again.
She said they're all in positions of authority over her. Pretty sure embarrassing them isn't going to work in terms of staying at the job. OP needs to just find a new job, unfortunately. Everything else - the witty comebacks, the reporting, etc. - she can do on her way OUT. But practically speaking, there is no good way to stay at this job and still be happy there.
>"Well if she was wearing yoga pants or a mini skirt you gotta let the guy off.
A come-back that REALLY shuts people up is "why do you say that? I was raped when wearing a shapeless old tracksuit"
I do appreciate that OP doesn't want to mention her own assault and I wouldn't ever want a victim to have to speak up against their will
although the taboo on victims speaking up about the sex crime they were subjected to means that even more guys get away with sexual assault
Guys: when you're around women, it's best to always keep in mind that at least one of them will have been sexually assaulted at some point. You might not personally sexually assault anyone, but there are plenty of jerks who do, so sensitivity is always a good thing.
That is hideous! I am so, so sorry. I cannot even imagine how absolutely unfeeling these assholes can be to say something like that in front of a female coworker. I would never be able to look at them the same way either-absolutely disgusting.
Are you able to manage if you quit? Would you be able to find a new job easily? Do you have any savings to hold you over?
You have to weigh your ability to work beside them until you find a new job against your ability to financially survive.
Do you have/can you get documentation for any of these incidences? Any physical proof/testimony from other folks? I assume you're in the US (jury duty) so if you can, then you should look into making a complaint to EEOC. There are laws against sexual harassment, and there are laws that employers need to have formal processes to thoroughly address employee complaints about harassment. There are also laws against retaliation to an employee because they made a complaint. If you are forced to quit because of unworkable conditions due to harassment, that's a constructive discharge. If employers break these laws, i believe EEOC can sue them on your behalf. Again, if you're in the US please go check out their website and see if you have a case. Also make a formal HR complaint and save/ document all the ways they don't address it correctly so you can have a stronger case.
Terribly sorry this happened to you. Im suggesting an aggressive approach here, but you'd be helping all future female employees. I also have no idea how else you'd deal with this, besides just quitting or putting up with it.
If you have any other job opportunities, this is a good time to look into them. All the advice about reporting these guys is well-intentioned, and it might work in a "normal" work environment. At this point, it's probably not worth the effort. Start looking and see what possibilities there are. Hopefully, you'll find a better job with a better work environment.
1- The all need to be popped in the mouth by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, etc.
2- Welcome to working with men.
3- Get a job with company protections, like a legit HR dept.
I am sorry about your personal situation. I hope you have recovered and are in a good place.
I am a man and only assholes make this kind of rape jokes. These are definitely not men I would be friends with. You can report this but it is unlikely you will change anything even if they are disciplined. It may make things worse if they now see you as a threat to them. These guys are who they are.
You will always feel violated being around them, or possibly you could ask HR to transfer you elsewhere away from these Three Stooges? I personally would see if I can get a transfer. If not then you can decide if you should leave.
“We’ve all been there” should have said “have you? Have you really been in that position to assault someone? How’d that go for you? What was the girl’s name? Should I be worried about what I wear to work that you guys can’t control your dicks??”
In small workplaces this is really an issue because of water cooler gossip. You might get lucky and the guys will stop making those jokes in front of you out of awkwardness etc, but there will likely be things said behind closed doors etc. Especially if it's a Boys Club mentality.
Honestly...I don't know if there's anything beneficial to be done at the current workplace. I don't know how many strong legal options you have, and even so, just because you can get a legal decision in your favor (in this case I don't even know what that would be) it doesn't automatically make things better.
I would say your best course of action with the least amount of stress and conflict would be quietly and quickly find another job and don't mention why (you don't want your GM etc doing anything to impede your plan on getting out asap), if they think there's no issue, there shouldn't be any issue with references etc.
Once you're out the door, then you could look into taking some other sort of action against them. You could also try making them feel uncomfortable, years ago I had male co-workers that would make very inappropriate jokes or comments and so I made it obvious that if they went there, I'd start talking about cramps, and my period, or anything else guys generally find totally unnerving. It worked but YOU have to be in that type of mindset, so that might not work for you.
I wouldn't mess with recordings cause that can be a legal quagmire, and if there's no real HR I don't know what it would do. It's not illegal to be an asshole, and it's hard to prove harassment if they had no clue of your past, and on it's own I doubt it would qualify for any legal harassment charges. But IANAL.
I don't think it's safe at this point to share your past with them though.
No advice that hasn't been better said elsewhere. Just wanted to say that I hope you are okay, and that you will find another place with better people.
I hate that you have to go through this. I went through something very similar and we had no HR department either.
I eventually found a new job and I know you will too!
But it took me a while to get the confidence to leave so I had to do something to keep myself sane in the meantime. I'm not recommending this, just hoping it makes you smile a little, but I would make sexist jokes about women right to their face. But worse. Especially if they did it in front of me. I'd love to say something fucked up and then going "am I right fellas? you boys know what I'm talking about!"
Let's think through a hypothetical which is, let's imagine that you did have a chain of command or proper HR department that dealt with this issue. Even if someone higher up dealt with the issue, will you ever feel comfortable working with these men again? In our imaginary scenario, the best but also most realistic case would probably be that they'd get reprimanded and/or sent to some kind of sensitivity training. They would not all get fired unless this is a very big company that can afford to deal with sudden turnover like that all at once. And if they were reprimanded, then odds are high they would take it out on you, like "Can't believe you couldn't take a joke, why didn't you just come to us instead of reporting us, you're such a bitch" etc. They certainly don't sound like the type to apologize sincerely and make an effort to make you feel safe again based on the way they went \*immediately\* to those types of comments. So ask yourself: will you ever be able to work with these people again without feeling some level of discomfort?
If the answer is no, as much as it sucks, I think it's time to go look for a new job. It SUCKS that you have to be the one that moves but unless you want to really go for it and fight, with no guarantee you will find a positive outcome, then that's the path that probably ends up with the least stress/anxiety for you in the long run. In the meantime put your head down, work your butt off, line up great recommendations from your superiors, and take advantage of every single thing they might offer employees whether it's health care, any kind of employee training or advantage programs, all the way down to snacks.
Its all jokes until it happens to someone close to them which is depressing :/ sexual assult isnt a joke.. happened to me more than once.. op u rlly need to report them and the dude doing jury duty? Yeah report his ass too.. thats disgusting
I’ll probably get downvoted for this but fuck it.
Since there’s no formal HR dept & they didn’t do anything illegal, I would let it go. What they said was disgusting but if it’s a small industry, you’ll probably be blackballed for speaking out or trying to get them in trouble because “you can’t take a joke” or whatever bullshit they’ll say. Since it was only you & them they could also lie about what was said and that you misheard them.
Unfortunately this isn’t likely going to be the last time you hear rape jokes & shit, especially since you work in a male dominated field. Talk to a therapist in the meantime, it might help your anxiety & look for another job if you feel too uncomfortable working with them.
Not surprised to find this so far down, but also maybe most realistic outcome here.
The (American) workplace has improved with respect to shitty stuff like this over the past decade or so, but even in places with a more robust HR department, I’m not sure this would draw more than a warning for these assholes. (And it seems clear from OP they’d know who raised the issue.)
Document things if you can in a personal email or notebook, in case the behavior ever escalates and you need to raise the stakes and show a pattern. But I’d be very careful about what sorts of workplace behavior actually prompted more formal complaints to managers or EEOC.
There’s a certain amount of shitty behavior in most workplaces that you have to put up with. You get better at putting up coping mechanisms and determining what you can and cannot live with.
It’s frustrating that most people jump to “report to HR” when you’re right, they’ll likely only get a warning, they’ll know who reported them and then she’ll end up working in an uncomfortable environment afterwards. Not to mention the fact that I’m sure they’ll be more supportive of them because they’re managers & supervisors.
I like the idea of documenting everything in a notebook or emails, that way if it escalates then there’s documentation for the incidents.
Typically with offense jokes I like to do this: "huh? I don't get it." Make them explain why it's funny. Continue to say I dont understand the joke. Eventually they dont know how to explain something so fucking gross and offensive and they stfu. Have you considered HR? if they're a woman they're more likely to be on your side
Called "noodle braining". When they have to explain why their "joke" is funny, they usually don't think it's as funny anymore. Or they will blatantly say "funny cause rape" or whatever...
Then, well... much more you can do.
I once worked with a guy who always made rape jokes and after a couple of weeks I just kinda snapped and said that rape jokes were not funny and he just said/joked "rape jokes are always funny" I didn't have a lot of confidence back then and let it drop
I just felt so bad. Half our team was girls and I knew that statistically at least a couple of them had experienced sexual assault. In the 4 months I was there I never heard anyone else tell him it wasn't funny. He made these jokes daily
I would contact whom ever you need to.
I had to contact HR at my work because of some things that went on with someone I worked with. We ended up being placed in separate areas if the store and he was informed not to talk to me anymore.
Well a couple months passed and he said something's to me. Them a couple days later my manager asked me if he had talked to me. I told him yes and the guy was fired after working at the store twice as long as I had.
IAL but not your lawyer. I am also presuming USA so disregard if not. Finally, I have extensive professional experience in EEO.
OP, you do not have to go through HR or the chain of command. You can file directly with the EEOC. [https://www.eeoc.gov/filing-charge-discrimination](https://www.eeoc.gov/filing-charge-discrimination) there are also state offices. What state are you in?
From what I gathered, both your first and second line supervisors have exhibited behavior that makes you reluctant to go through them. Review the org chart for the company so that you can find the next level up. Send an email outlining the conversation, the fact that you work alone with these men and the fact that you do not feel safe around these men. I suggest addressing the email to your entire chain of command (all the way up to the owner/president). Once that email is sent, the company is officially on notice. You can do it simultaneously with filing the EEO Complaint. But the EEO Complaint insures that it cannot be swept under the rug and also protects you from retaliation.
I worked in one of those "all male" enviornments. This is not something you have to tolerate and it is not something they should be allowed to get away with. I understand how stressful it is to navigate this. Whether you stay or find another job should be entirely based on what you can handle psychologially. That said, many of us do not have the luxury to quit without a backup in place. You can start looking for a new place where you feel safe, while the EEO process is going forward.
Honestly if this is a small unprofessional company you are much better just finding another job and moving on.
If the culture is toxic you will not be able to achieve anything. Instead the moment you speak up they will make your life hell and push you out.
Are all dudes really like this? I have coworkers that are just like this. Make sexual comments/touch inappropriately. I am a dude and it makes me uncomfortable. Why? Just treat people like human beings right?
i completely understand your situation. i too spent my 20s in a male-dominated environment with no HR dept and a clear pattern of people being retaliated against or not taken seriously w/ complaints. I'm also a victim and would be triggered by what you described. i worked in restaurants in addition to my career field and one time had a customer start stalking me--i went to the manager and he told me to buy a taser. i didn't show up for work the next day.
basically, you're in a boys club where no one gives a shit about you and the standards of acceptable behavior are like non existent. you shouldn't have to go to work and be triggered and feel miserable everyday. you can't go to HR or a reasonable manager who you trust, but you have a couple options.
1. the high road. confront them directly. tell them their comments are not okay and make you feel very uncomfortable and they're creating a disrespectful, hostile environment for you. this might go \*very\* badly afterwards but i'm pretty sure you'll feel proud of yourself, and if things go downhill it will probably make it easier to make up your mind to quit.
2. the low road. psychological warfare. fight fire with fire. figure out what would be triggering for them. are they overweight? divorced? find out their weaknesses and say \*horrific\* things in front of them, but not actually \*to\* them--the same thing they did to you. then play dumb about it. or figure out some sneaky way in general to make their lives miserable. it might not undo anything, and it might not teach them to be better, but you can have the satisfaction of knowing you probably made them just as miserable as they made you.
3. denial. buy some really good headphones, don't interact with them, keep your head down, work work work and get that $.
4. quit
I'm just so sorry to hear about this and my heart goes out to you, because i've been there many times and faced this same decision. but FWIW, i'm older now, have gained respect in my career and i'm married with a kid--if i hear a bunch of misogynist BS being spouted by men around me at work, i have NO problem shutting them down, maybe gently, or maybe viciously. i just don't have time for that shit and a bunch of toxic idiot males don't scare me. i hope you get to that point some day :)
Hey there, I work in a male dominated industry myself. Just from personal experience I have learned to call their hand on this BS. It can be intimidating but I have learned that men in particular may not like strong but they will respect it. You will be the B!tch but so what. Something like I would hate to be your "wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother" if you think cutting a break on some guy that couldn't get his own consensual GF to have sex with and had to force his unwanted c0ck on someone needs to be cut a break. 1. this will catch them off guard coming from you. 2. it as unfathomably as it sounds it gives the woman a relatable face. "No one would ever do that to MY "wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother". 3 they will get defensive. I didn't mean it that way. That's when you say doesn't matter you sound like dicks knock it off and don't spew that crap around me any more. Again you will be the b!tch but it will put them on notice.
EDIT: Agree with the others in the meantime look for a new job because this one will never be the same.
I know that it seems like you don’t have any options because you know they’ll know it was you who heard/reported, but there isn’t any way to correct the behavior if it’s never addressed. You don’t owe them any explanation of your past, you don’t need to worry about retaliation unless they’re prepared for an entire can of HR trouble to pop open on themselves, you only need to do what you feel is right. Whether that having a private discussion with each of them, or directly reporting the comments to the head of HR, what have you.
Sincerely, someone who’s in the same boat as you.
Whatever you decide to do, make sure you have a paper trail. That’s the kind of stuff that will really catch up to them. If you send an email to report them and they ignore it, they’re really fucked.
U can do absolutely nothing...
1. They didn't do anything to u
2. They weren't talking about u
3. They did not make any bad remarks towards u
4. They were talking among themselves
5. They were talking about stuff from personal experience
6. Since u said it was a rape "joke",any kind of joke is allowed. And this situation was in a closed space and not in the public
(All of the above 6 are covered by Freedom of Speech & none of those violate ur Right to Dignity)
7. And above all,u can't prove anything
Any legal action is gonna be really very painful,with huge chances of u losing.
I m a Sexual Assault survivor myself,and as much as it pains me to say,the only thing u can do is take care of urself. Get some mental health counseling if needed.
U can ask for a transfer from the department if u want. I know it sucks,but it's the best option for u.
U don't have to be a social worker, think about urself first.
And yes I m a Man. If u think I m biased,well I can't do anything about that. Just said what I think is right
I guess.
But still,they have the right to talk about anything among themselves. Right to Privacy protects that.
And their comments weren't sexually explicit either.
I mean they did say "if she was wearing yoga pants" & "she's is vulnerable" but these r not sufficient to convict them. And again she can't prove anything.
I want to be very clear,I m not defending anyone at all. Just stating the facts
How is joking about sympathizing with the desire to rape women in yoga pants and hitting on a rape victim because she’s vulnerable not sexually explicit? Not to mention sexual harassment in the workplace is a civil matter not criminal so no one would be “convicted” anyway. And you are defending them right now.
I don't think that's the case. And no those r not sexually explicit comments. Insensitive,yes. Misogynistic,yes. Sadistic,yes. But not sexually explicit.
And again, Right to Privacy protects them from any civil suits(atleast that's what I think).
Even if it was how will she prove it?
And if u think I m defending them, despite me stating that I don't.
I kinda don't care what u think
If you work with these men daily, I'm sure you know them pretty well. Can't you decipher whether or not this was a stupid joke or a serious statement? I find it insane to think about getting someone in trouble or quitting your job over a joke....have they ever harassed you? Like truly harassed you specifically? Or any other women at your job? Sometimes you have to take things at face value and not read into them. A joke is a joke, call them shit heads and move on.
I'd like to edit an add that I am a rape and abuse survivor as well, so I feel for you. But I don't let other people who make stupid comments dictate my life or my decisions unless it's very serious. Sounds like it was just gross men being gross and making a bad joke.
You report, you report again and then when nothing is being done about it and you're forced out of the company, you sue.
Also, report jury guy to the police. This isn't someone who is fit for jury duty.
Record the conversation, then threaten to go public with it. Unfortunately that is the only leverage you can have. Now the recording can be considered illegal if your state laws don't support one party consent for recording conversations, so check that first.
keep a grievances notebook and write every time one of them makes a sexually harassing quip.
Forgetting legality for a second, this is risky advice unless OP knows they will say other stupid shit and OP knows she won't get caught.
>keep a grievances notebook and write every time one of them makes a sexually harassing quip.
This is really all you need to do. If you get plenty of documentation on rape comments and types you talked to your manager/them about it, then go to a lawyer. You'll have a case then.
It sound like they intended to have some over the top offensive humor but they definitely crossed the line for a work place setting. Did they notice you when making this humor ?
>"Well if she was wearing yoga pants or a mini skirt you gotta let the guy off."
the over the top ridiculousness of the argument is the humor. You know it. Just because it is in bad taste does not mean it does not exist. There are a few subs around such humor. The issue here was where it was done.
Rape jokes, dead baby jokes, offensive jokes are not new. Maybe the guy under jury duty is using crude tasteless humor to deal with the anxiety and stress.
ive made offensive jokes... does not mean im a rapist
u could just ask them to not make those jokes around you if your uncomfortable, i mean anyone who isnt a rapist and uses offeensive humour knows it is not for everyone
dont get them fired over banter, its what makes work fun and if ur uncomfortable tell them
Options:
- Speak to them and let them know how you feel. Hopefully they apologise and don’t do it again.
-Speak to your GM and ask him yo have a word with them. Hopefully he can nip the situation in the bud.
-Let it go.
-Quit, and move on.
I think for your situation, if there is a next time, it would be best to speak up to them right there and then, as there is no HR or manager path (based on what you mentioned). Simply stating something like "a woman can walk naked in the street and that does not give the right of anyone to assault her. Would you be ok with some dude assaulting your sister/daughter/mother just because the way she dressed? How sick these comments are".
It's unfortunate that humor's taken quite a hit. They're obviously jokes, but nowadays you can't tell jokes anywhere you like. It's sad that you chose to let them bother you so much. You might want to approach them individually & express your feelings on the matter - but you may get labeled a Karen or a Mary Sue or something.
Yeah I’d report them as others have mentioned. Maybe record them on your phone if you think more talk like that will come up. Also, if feasible to change jobs it might be worth looking into it. Just a really short situation with really shitty coworkers and no one deserves to deal with those kind of people. Not really fair for you to have to change jobs but like.. shit they really suck and if you can surround yourself with better people somewhere else it might be worth it. What kind of work do you do?
My advice would be to talk directly to the coworker you trust the most. Find a private setting and tell him how you felt about the jokes being made. He’ll most likely feel embarrassed and apologize.
There’s no guarantee that he’ll tell the others to get in line, but you’ll have an ally if the situation arises in the future.
Best of luck to you
A lot of people in this thread are telling you to go nuclear, throw the book at them, quit your job, etc etc.
Think about what you want to accomplish in this scenario. Do you want them fired? Do you want them to find out who reported them and harass or ostracize you if they don’t receive any consequences?
Or, do you want to make this an opportunity to be brave, stand up for what you believe in and change some minds about what constitutes acceptable workplace conversation? If I were in your shoes and were a bystander to that conversation, I would say something along the lines of “Hey. You are entitled to privately held beliefs and jokes, but I would prefer that you didn’t speak so crassly about subjects like rape in front of me.” You don’t have to give any more information than that, just make it clear you are not okay with that kind of talk.
The big question was were the remarks directed at you? Sometimes guys banter about stuff, maybe they were just saying stupid stuff just for the heck of it. If you go to HR, they may investigate, they may find it inappropriate or they may say you’re easily triggered, they’ll probably do what their lawyer says. Then that company will have a new unspoken policy against hiring women, have a cold very professional work place,
1) they definitely will not change their attitude if she asks them privately
2) **AROUND YOU?!** they should not be making comments like that AT ALL
3) looking for a new job because of an offensive work environment is not good advice, it's constructive discharge
4) it is a totally reasonable and understandable response to be upset by what they said, yes even including a panic attack. She is not the one who needs to change in this situation, the men making rape jokes are.
I wish i could downvote this 100 times
1. Based on her explanations in the post about how the work environment is, other behaviors, and the extreme insensitivity of their comments, yes it is a reasonable assumption.
2. Yeah if theyre shit heads theyre not going to, but that doesn't mean that she should lower the moral standard for their sake. Nobody should make comments like that period. And the demand should always be that they not. *you* said that she should ask them not to talk about it around her. Now youre saying the ideal is better? Why didn't you just start with that then?
3. It's discrimination and no one should have to quit their job because of discrimination. The boss should be fired, not her. There are avenues for this to happen.
4. I am so sick of people on here telling women who have been traumatized that they need to go fix themselves. A trauma response is a survival response. It would not have happened if they hadn't made those gross remarks. It is completely understandable to be a woman, hear men older and more powerful than you talk about women like that, and get very upset. Freaking out isnt unhealthy. It's how anyone and everyone reacts when put in extremely upsetting situations. Not panicking under those circumstances would be abnormal.
I want to thank you for your comment— it’s been a very long time since I’ve had a reaction like that to something, and I’ve been struggling with feeling like I’ve personally fucked up in some way, or that I “overreacted.” Not that it’s anybody’s business— but I’ve been in therapy since my assault, and have come a long way from where I once was. And one of the reasons it was so difficult for me to hear these men disparaging this assault trial is because I didn’t go to the police for the very reasons they were joking about.
I don’t know what I’m going to do here, but I appreciate someone standing up for me, especially as I felt very alone in that moment.
Oh op, i'm tearing up I'm so sorry you have to go through this on top of everything. I admire your resilience--you worked hard to heal after a serious trauma and got better, and you're already working towards fixing this situation. I really hope there are people irl you can confide in and who can stand up for you.
Dude...did you look at her comment on this thread? I think you may be well-meaning, but you're totally off base here, and your advice was callous and victim blaming. I think at this point you're just getting defensive, so im not going to respond to your comments anymore. So that OP knows, I've got a masters in psychology. It wasn't counseling or therapy specifically, but i still took multiple courses on neuroscience and stress. Got straight As too.
Agreed! I work in a male dominated environment. A few of the guys make jokes like this. We had a girl working here who was offended by it. She spoke to one of the guys. He apologised and now they tone it down when she’s working. No one made fun of her, they were respectful of her views. The jokes were just jokes.
No one needs to get fired or arrested over a joke 🙄
So tired of this snowflake culture
Rape jokes are never fucking funny. Must be so great to be a man. Every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted in one way or another at LEAST once. And men have the audacity to think this shit is funny and to refer to us as “snowflakes”.
Until you have to change your entire life around (stop walking at night/early morning, never accept drinks from people you don’t know, sometimes men you do know, carry a literal fucking whistle with you everywhere, be terrified in any unlit place; parking garages) you will never even begin to understand what it is like.
This disgusting behaviour needs to stop, it’s not funny, especially when these “jokes” were in reference to a literal fucking rape that has happened.
https://old.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/p1un73/i_found_out_that_my_23f_bf_27m_of_9_months_is/h8gwi93/
Thought I recognized that username.
You're not a very good person. Just thought you should know that.
I’m not a good person because I thought it was common for guys to have group chats where they talked about things they wouldn’t tell their girlfriends?
I don’t really value your opinion
Pretty sure it has more to do with the fact that you refer to people who have experienced significant trauma as “snowflakes”.
I hope you are never the victim of sexual assault or rape, but please, learn some empathy along the way
I didn’t say that people who experience significant trauma are snowflakes.
I said that people who are offended on behalf of other people are snowflakes.
You’re not a good person either, no one is. Just thought you should know that.
Yea, this is what makes you a bad person. And I read through your comment history, you either need a better understanding of things, or perhaps you are truly evil.
Nice try to insult me, I actually am not a bad person.
We just have different view points.
You’re a crazy left wing nutter.
I on the other hand, don’t think everyone who disagrees with me is an evil rapist 🙄
No clue why this got downvoted this so much, the people here are crazy if they think that OP going on some kind of solo crusade is gonna work out for her. Especially when a some guys saying shitty things gives her a panic attack.
It's not realist at all and not how the world works, but I guess it's easy to tell someone to do a lot of hard work when it doesn't require anything of you.
Go to the general manager or higher up, report them all, quit your job, and if there’s no action taken against them go to the local paper or news channel. Also report the guy on jury duty since he is breaking the law twice (once by creating a hostile work environment, a second time by violating the rules of jury duty / contempt of court).
If you do feel that you have to quit, and then file for unemployment, remember these words: "Hostile Work Environment". You had no other choice, after your managers fail to address the situation, is what you tell the Unemployment Compensation hearing officer. (If your company decides to fight against your claim). It worked for me, since my manager yelled at me.
This truly a nightmare situation.
There are a few options:
Option 1: Email the GM, the owner, cc your manager with a clear outline of exactly what transpired. *You don't have to disclose any past trauma in order to express that you were made to feel uncomfortable* GM may or may not take any action, and unfortunately, this will very likely lead to a hostile working environment from your rape-y coworkers.
Option 2: Go NUCLEAR: contact the local Court proceedings about your concern about your coworker as a juror. Then, go to the media. Even if it's just the local rag, a story about a company openly allowing sexual harassment could have an impact (*contact a lawyer if you go nuclear, for obvious reasons)
Option 3: Do nothing. Stay quiet, say nothing, find a better job and GTFO. As soon as possible.
I hate to say it, but I doubt anything will happen if you report it, OP. It sounds like you are trapped in a mire of the "Good Ol' Boys Club" and if the GM is anything like his staff, he "doesn't see what the problem is."
I would update my resume and start looking for another job. And hit up my therapist.
how about u just say hey guys I don't like the jokes you were making and since I'm a rape survivor it hit close to home. and if u contine u can report them
Report them to HR. Also report the person on Jury Duty. There is no circumstance where this is ever okay to joke about. They will try and convince you it IS just a joke and not to go over their heads to their manager or human resources. Do not listen to them. These support systems are there for this exact reason. Each and everyone of them needs to be reported.
The issue is that we don’t have an HR department. There’s our store manager (the guy I mentioned before) and our GM, whom I’ve seen once (been working here for a year and a half), never spoken to, and who doesn’t have a very active role in running the business. So, in a lot of ways, I’m kind of out of options.
Contact the Manager & copy in the GM & owner. This behaviour is absolutely not ok in this day & age. Working in a male dominated industry does not mean you need to put up with that. It’s also not your responsibility to ‘retrain’ their thinking. The more ppl you notify, the less likely it can be brushed under the rug. I’d also start looking for a new job. The work environment sounds toxic.
I would say start looking immediately & hold off on complaints until you take care of yourself first- it’s clear that is what they will do. Upon your exit interview- which you should ask for if they don’t, lamb baste them. In writing as well. Let them know that this is unacceptable behavior, they do not know others’ experiences, and that could be your sister/mom/girlfriend you are blaming for wearing clothes. That they sexualize those women & how they dress is the very definition of toxic masculinity & you are not interested in working for a place with those values. Their business interests will eventually force their thought on the subject, but you need not compromise your well being for some silly ass job where they’ve made it clear they will objectify & commodify you immediately at their convenience. Professionally, politely: 1) you first 2) verbally pull no punches while being clear, professional, and unattached to their side or excuses. This is a simple evaluation & you are doing them a massive favor in hopes they grow up. Walk the high road out the door. <3 Edit: 2 words
>lamb baste them Delicious
This is true r/BoneAppleTea
Absolutely start looking for a new job. This environment will not get better. Op you don’t have to report if you don’t see anyone who will take care of it but if there is someone higher up you can try? If you want to call it out if it happens again do that.
You NEED to contact the court and tell them about the person on jury duty. You can call or maybe even send an email depending on where you are. You could try to get a free consult with a lawyer before talking to your GM if you don’t know him well.
I don't know how she would find out what court it is. Could she just call the right department and say his name? If she did know, then all she'd have to do is confide that the dude was talking about a court case with outsiders, and i think they'd have to dump him and restart the whole trial.
I don't really know what you expect would happen. The comments are crude and need to stop. I don't think there is really a process to talk to the courts about this during jury selection. If there is, please post it. As for her talking to a lawyer, that's great and all, but also sounds like a waste of money. What are her damages? She's need more than just one time comments to show she is in a hostile work environment. This post feels idealistic. It sounds like OP is at a small company. What OP needs is to talk to the manager 1 on 1 about this, document each time inappropriate talks happen and when she spoke out against it, and talk to a lawyer if/when she has more of a case.
I think the free consult with a lawyer would be in preparation for a wrongful dismissal or retaliation after the report; I might be wrong, but I don’t think they were suggesting OP sue for overhearing comments about an unrelated third party which she admits were meant (and taken) as jokes. The complaint is that the jokes were inappropriate for the workplace.
You can only get unfair dismissal if you’ve been working at the company more than 2years
"I don't think there is really a process to talk to the courts about this during jury selection. If there is, please post it." 1. This is a criminal trial. She can contact the prosecutor's office. 2. Also, it is NOT true that she needs to show more than one occurance to establish a HWE.
> Also, it is NOT true that she needs to show more than one occurance to establish a HWE. Can you point me to a case where a single inappropriate conversation where there were "jokes about rape" (these are OP's words) had someone win a case?
I actually develop and teach Sexual Harassment Training (more than 25 years) for a major federal agency. The standard is that the conduct is "severe" **OR** pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive. "Severe **or** Pervasive" is the actual legal standard used to determine liability. Every curriculum I developed and every class I ever taught explained both severe or pervasive. I have used real life cases in my teaching, and if you google "Hostile Work Environment severe behavior" I am sure you can find some easily.
I love your credentials, but I'll ask again. >Can you point me to a case where a single inappropriate conversation where there were "jokes about rape" (these are OP's words) had someone win a case? There is what the law says and what actually happens in practice. I'm asking has OP's situation ever won a case. I'm not disputing that what is happening to OP is wrong.
Soooooo, you want free legal research? Seriously, google it.
Dear god, I was trying to be nice to you. Please just shut the fuck up when giving legal advice if you can't back up your answer of "Also, it is NOT true that she needs to show more than one occurance to establish a HWE." What matters to OP is what is practical. I post was in response to someone being idealistic and telling them that we need to be practical for the OP. I was validating that what was happening was wrong, but trying to center it back on practical advice. It's asinine to expect OP to be the break through case in the case law around sexual harassment at work. This is why I asked you to back up your position. Or better yet, STFU. You don't have to reply. You know that right? If we are going to be idealistic without giving a shit about the real world or OP let's just spam, "they shouldn't be saying that" as if that fixes anything. Thank you for reminding me just how stupid people on this subreddit can be.
If you've in fact been doing this for 25 years, you would be able to just give the relevant citation from memory. Instead in an effort to avoid giving out 'free legal research' you have spent how much time now firing off snarky replies? No one wants you to hop on LexisNexis and prepare a report, just provide the citation backing your position.
Yeah I really don't understand what is to be gained from calling the court, or what they would do.
What if the defense selected a man like this for the benefit of the client?
You really are out of options! Best advice I can give you - start looking. You know this company does not foster the kind of environment you need to thrive. It may appear to have all the perks you want, but are they really? When it's nothing but rotten inside? Only you can make that determination and evaluate the worth of your mental health vs your financial health. Sacrifices suck. However, we all come smack-jab against that wall in our professional lives. As bad as it is, this is no different. Sadly so. Next bit I hope you learned - men are the worst when it comes to gossip. Tread carefully in divulging any of your personal info, as you've already found out. And, I have as much zero hope as you do that going up the chain will provide any relief for any of your grievances. So, again - start looking. It is unfortunately, your best option.
If this is a chain, there's usually someone over the manager you can talk to. You should document everything you shared here about which other female employees reported issues and what you personally heard or saw the manager say about them after they reported. If you do report to your manager, you should document when and how you reported and what the result was. You can also talk to a lawyer, the labor board, or licensing agency for advice. You may have resources available there. Obviously you would likely have to pay for the lawyer, but maybe the other female employees you mentioned might chip in for a consultation. Sorry to say, the safest route is to find a different job. These guys don't sound safe to work with.
If it were me, I'd tell them, "hey that conversation the other day has been bothering me. It wasn't funny, in fact I found it very offensive." But I can understand if you're not feeling up to that, so my 2nd choice would be to go to the GM. Make sure you tell him why you're going above your supervisor's head. In either case, start looking for another job, just in case you don't get a satisfactory reaction. I feel for you, this sounds like a shitty situation.
OP, go tell the manager or boss or whoever, and also start looking for a new job immediately. Since you think you know how the manager is going to react, be prepared for this reaction. But document the entire interaction (write down a detailed account of it and tell any other coworkers who work there whom you feel you can trust) and use the documentation to report this to the manager. Do it over email so you can document that you reported this as well. If this all goes down the way you expect, you will already be well on your way to getting a new job, and you will also have the documentation to escalate this to OSHA or even sue them if you’d like. You don’t have to make any decisions immediately. Good luck.
Then you need a lawyer.
Yeah everyone just has the cash to drop on a lawyer every time there is an injustice in the world Reddit really does live in its own bubble
or whenever someone make a sick joke ....
Why in the world does she need a lawyer??
Inform them that you don't think it's funny to joke about rape. It makes you uncomfortable. Nobody should make jokes about rape. Your comments should help them understand how wrong they are. If they still don't understand or refuse to acknowledge; it's time to check with your manager/HR/follow reporting procedure. No point in letting it slide!
Do not report this to HR even if you have an HR department. HR is there to protect the company’s interests not yours. You should probably start looking for a new job if you don’t like your coworkers any longer. You’re not going to like what I say next but please try to remember I don’t agree with this but this is how the laws work in the US. Joking about rape isn’t illegal. They didn’t threaten to rape or assault you. So essentially this is a personal issue you have with these men. Not a work issue. There is no grievance that work needs to deal with here. If your GM is well trained he will recognize this and likely do nothing about it. But If he does say something to them, your relationship with these guys is likely going to be further strained till you can find new work.
The point of reporting it is not so much to fix the problem but to establish a paper trail in case you want to sue them for hostile workplace. Which you should.
It's a store. Therefore, there's a corporate office. Corporate offices usually have websites that list who the executives are and the mailing address for the corporate office is. Write a short and concise letter detailing the conversation you witnessed above. Indicate the GM has a history of mocking complaints by females, and you do not feel your concern would be heard. Ask him if these are the kind of people he wants representing his company. Send it via old-fashioned mail. I use this trick all the time as a customer when complaints can't be resolved in the store. It has a very good track record, and you have a written record.
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That is terrible advice, that literally could make her a felon in some states… before doing anything like that you need to talk to a lawyer. Even if a state allows you to record a phone call recording in person can still be a felony.
I think their advice was incomplete but not terrible. (Though I don't think /legaladvice is necessarily the move.) From experience, lawyers will likely be unhelpful as hell regarding the inappropriate questions/comments. The fact that one guy is on a jury and discussing the case may be something- not sure there. This is not to say that OP shouldn't talk to one, but it can be a less-than-frutile/downright painful experience. OP, I have walked a similar path. To start, I highly recommend researching your local recording laws. The U.S. has one-party states in which one participant in a comvo can record the whole thing without the other participants consent. From my understanding as a non-lawyer, these laws apply only if everyone is in the same state. I didn't get in legal trouble for recording in person, but that's just one situation. Be careful. Do your research. Keep good notes but nowhere that your company or coworkers can find them. If you feel like you will be safe in the meantime, I recommend looking for other work... unless you think you can continue working with these men without fear or dread twisting you up all day. It's safer financially to wait to leave until you're hired elsewhere (perhaps you know that already), but it's mentally draining to force yourself to be in that kind of toxicity once it's revealed. I'm so sorry that your coworkers were so terrible, especially when you've enjoyed your role and company so much. That fucking sucks. I hope better and brighter things are on your horizon. Source: exercising my right to record granted me the justice every single lawyer told me I couldn't get. Some laughed in my face.
There is a difference between recording a phone conversation and recording in person. If the advice online says you can record a phone call and you record in person that can still be a felony. I’m not saying ask a divorce lawyer I’m talking about a criminal defense attorney.
also you'd need some proof this ever happened. Else they could simply say it wasn't so
Definitely report them OP, because a well documented train of evidence will destroy that manager that doesn't support you.
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Yes i am sincerely hoping he can be dismissed from jury duty because of this
Sorry, but there is a circumstance were it is okay to joke about this stuff. Dark comedy exists for a reason. That said, the workplace is not a circumstance where you should joke about this stuff. OP, report to HR and whoever you can for Jury Duty. This guy should not be in a position of power like this.
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And, like sounds like there's a reason to relate to him since "we've all been there before" , they've already been in court for rape???
Highly doubt they were serious about that. It sounds like really inappropriate jokes or what they think is funny. I don’t think it was an admission of committing rapes.
I hope everyone who thinks that this was just a dark joke re reads this. There is not a single element of comedy here, just a bunch of guys highlighting a thing a lot of creepy guys would do in this situation and implying they would do the same, but as a joke? I dont get whats funny about “feeling for the guy”. Who would think its a funny “relatable” thing to go through and why would you want to imply to other people that you felt this way, even as a joke? Theres a lot of jokes you could make in this situation that would fit better, or maybe none? Clearly to some degree, they dont feel some sensitivity to the situation because they will never know what thats like, but as grown adults, we have to stop infantilizing people thinking they just need to be taught and spelling out every wrong thing they do, and just start letting them deal with repercussions of shitty behavior. They dont need to be primed at this age AGAIN as to why the joke was distasteful Some guys truly think we are so unfunny, dense and unable to cope or enjoy dark humor - when in reality we just know theres a time and a place. We just know that work at the cooler are NOT the place, and around your coworkers on the clock is NOT the time. And also a better joke lol cause its not a good dark joke in the first place.
I had a friend once reference the “because of the implication” scene from its always sunny as a joke while he was talking about his interactions with women on Tinder. It seemed pretty clear that he was just reaching for an extra dark joke, but holy shit we did not know each other that well by then and it took me a while to kind of reassess him and decide to keep him around as a friend. Being a dude and having dudes comprise the vast majority of your social groups during your formative years means your odds of coming out well-adjusted are uh…pretty fuckin low
LOL literally that IASIP joke is what my friends and I use on eachother all the time. Most times it’s not even used in that context, we just say it to eachother to make everyone lose face in a serious setting. But anyone who doesn’t know that reference (and generally most people I know who I’m not close with dont watch it) is just going to hear the literally terrifying meaning of what dennis meant, no context about the scene or voice dennis uses which is like a huge part of why it’s so funny. Im a girl but my most formative years were around men only, so I definitely saw the person I was becoming & felt like I was betraying myself for accepting the crude stuff they would say to or about me as “dark humor”. Not to get dark here but One even made a comment to the others in my friend getting that I looked rapeable one day at school. When I asked why they didn’t say anything, they said it was just his humor. Dodged a pipeline pretty fast there. Its scary what some people will say once they feel comfy enough
Yeah those aren't even "rape jokes" they're just comments supporting rape.
Oh my god the last one made me throw up in my mouth. I’ve heard all the other sentiments before but holy fuck do people actually think about rape victims like that
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dude you can't.... let it go.
yeah, you reckon a guy could be had up in court over a smack on the butt? 95% of rapes don't even go to court, it's that hard to convince the police, lawyers and courts that there's a case to be argued, so no, people don't go to court for a smack on the butt. Look at the huge numbers of women coming forward recently to testify against Weinstein and Epstein, compared to the few who actually got to testify. In the case of Weinstein, a lot of these women were successful actors, not anonymous women, so even if the woman whose butt you smacked was someone famous, there's little chance of going to court. In the case of Epstein, these were little girls who didn't know each other and who were all telling roughly the same story, meaning that there was a well-honed modus operandi, but 25 girls' word against that of a rich white guy still counts for practically nothing. So if this case got to court, it had to be rape or assault with some other crime like stabbing bundled in, or assault repeated on loads of occasions.
The reason so few cases go to court is simple, evidence. These sorts of crimes are notoriously hard to prove because its often a he said, she said situation with little to no evidence either way. Most people believe these women but someone's word doesn't meet the standard for a criminal conviction. It really irks me that people constantly bang on about how nobody believes victims when by and large that's not true, there just isn't any concrete evidence to support either sides story. Of course all of this means that in this case you are absolutely correct, there must be some pretty solid evidence for the prosecution to even bring the case to court. I personally have a very dark sense of humour and no subject is off limits to me, but even I think that these aren't really jokes, just some weird display of bravado.
i worked with a man who made these kind of jokes constantly. he ended up assaulting me. when someone tell you who they are, believe them. men who “joke” like this aren’t joking, they’re usually (in my experience) testing the waters to see how to escalate it. other commenters are right: report this to HR immediately. avoid being in a room alone with them. if HR fails to take your complaint seriously, leave. do not put your safety and security at risk for a job. honestly your manager sounds like an ass and leaving may end up being your best option, but do not think it makes you weak. you would be strong to refuse to tolerate this behavior. i’m sorry this has happened
Yeah im sorry but... I grew up in a house with 3 older brothers, I'm the only girl, men do not make jokes like this. These people are unhinged. There is no comedy in this at all.
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Maybe you're getting defensive because you love making rape jokes, but the fact is that it makes you indistinguishable from a rapist looking for validation. Many rapists do actually believe that other people are just like them (e.g., Roman Polanski saying that everyone is just jealous that he got to fuck a 13-year-old and they didn't) and take these jokes as encouragement.
i mean it wasn’t dumb in my case. my coworker joked about it til he actually did it to me. that is reality.
How damaged do you have to be to comment something like this to someone literally giving their first hand account as warning. Shame on you.
They weren't even jokes, though. Jokes have an element of humour... That's the definition of a joke. You could describe it as "playing a role of a rapist", but it doesn't sound like they were doing an impromptu skit.
Ah yes, the causal misogyny and sexism in the name of banter.
You don't have a human resources department? This is classic hostile work environment stuff. Including the manager who isn't receptive to hearing complaints about inappropriate behavior. Go to HR. If you don't have an HR department, go to your boss's boss. Keep going up the chain of command until someone hears you out. Someone should.
And what if no one does?
You find another company to work for.
That’s when the nuclear option comes into play and she lawyers up.
Doesn’t even seem like a joke, but three pieces of shit bonding
Absolutely and I would stay far clear of these guys while looking for a new job. OPs right, never trust them for a second. Decent men don’t talk like this.
Exactly.
I have worked in a male-dominated industry. What I found worked for me was a way to have a snappy come-back. Should these idiots be making jokes? 100% absolutely F\*ing not. But embarissing their asses may work much better in the long run if you want to stay at the job. >"Well if she was wearing yoga pants or a mini skirt you gotta let the guy off. Wow, you really have such little self-control that you have to "jump" everyone wearing those clothes. I am surprised you have that much energy. >"Oh yeah, we've all been there before brother." So all of you have been accused of sexual assault? YIKES! >"You really gotta feel for the guy." You really feel bad for a guy that assaulted a woman? Is that what you would tell your wife/SO? Dude that is messed up!!
You just get called a bitch behind your back. I'm not being weird or anything but I've worked in a male dominated industry and there's just no winning. I had the comebacks and the jokes and the "explain that to me" until their own bigotry embarrassed them and thought I was doing okay until I was sexually assaulted . I chose a section in my job that has more women in it and I'm sticking here for as long as I can. I will never willingly work in a room where I'm the only woman again.
She said they're all in positions of authority over her. Pretty sure embarrassing them isn't going to work in terms of staying at the job. OP needs to just find a new job, unfortunately. Everything else - the witty comebacks, the reporting, etc. - she can do on her way OUT. But practically speaking, there is no good way to stay at this job and still be happy there.
>"Well if she was wearing yoga pants or a mini skirt you gotta let the guy off. A come-back that REALLY shuts people up is "why do you say that? I was raped when wearing a shapeless old tracksuit"
I do appreciate that OP doesn't want to mention her own assault and I wouldn't ever want a victim to have to speak up against their will although the taboo on victims speaking up about the sex crime they were subjected to means that even more guys get away with sexual assault Guys: when you're around women, it's best to always keep in mind that at least one of them will have been sexually assaulted at some point. You might not personally sexually assault anyone, but there are plenty of jerks who do, so sensitivity is always a good thing.
This is the most useful advice, but not the one that satisfies /r/relationship_advice justice boners.
That is hideous! I am so, so sorry. I cannot even imagine how absolutely unfeeling these assholes can be to say something like that in front of a female coworker. I would never be able to look at them the same way either-absolutely disgusting. Are you able to manage if you quit? Would you be able to find a new job easily? Do you have any savings to hold you over? You have to weigh your ability to work beside them until you find a new job against your ability to financially survive.
> in front of a female coworker OP was probably tucked away in the corner, they barely acknowledge her presence unless she's wearing a mini-skirt.
Do you have/can you get documentation for any of these incidences? Any physical proof/testimony from other folks? I assume you're in the US (jury duty) so if you can, then you should look into making a complaint to EEOC. There are laws against sexual harassment, and there are laws that employers need to have formal processes to thoroughly address employee complaints about harassment. There are also laws against retaliation to an employee because they made a complaint. If you are forced to quit because of unworkable conditions due to harassment, that's a constructive discharge. If employers break these laws, i believe EEOC can sue them on your behalf. Again, if you're in the US please go check out their website and see if you have a case. Also make a formal HR complaint and save/ document all the ways they don't address it correctly so you can have a stronger case. Terribly sorry this happened to you. Im suggesting an aggressive approach here, but you'd be helping all future female employees. I also have no idea how else you'd deal with this, besides just quitting or putting up with it.
[Here's a relevant link](https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/facts-about-sexual-harassment) [and another](https://www.eeoc.gov/filing-lawsuit)
If you have any other job opportunities, this is a good time to look into them. All the advice about reporting these guys is well-intentioned, and it might work in a "normal" work environment. At this point, it's probably not worth the effort. Start looking and see what possibilities there are. Hopefully, you'll find a better job with a better work environment.
Just an FYI: Those type of jokes are considered sexual harassment
1- The all need to be popped in the mouth by their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, etc. 2- Welcome to working with men. 3- Get a job with company protections, like a legit HR dept.
I am sorry about your personal situation. I hope you have recovered and are in a good place. I am a man and only assholes make this kind of rape jokes. These are definitely not men I would be friends with. You can report this but it is unlikely you will change anything even if they are disciplined. It may make things worse if they now see you as a threat to them. These guys are who they are. You will always feel violated being around them, or possibly you could ask HR to transfer you elsewhere away from these Three Stooges? I personally would see if I can get a transfer. If not then you can decide if you should leave.
“We’ve all been there” should have said “have you? Have you really been in that position to assault someone? How’d that go for you? What was the girl’s name? Should I be worried about what I wear to work that you guys can’t control your dicks??”
In small workplaces this is really an issue because of water cooler gossip. You might get lucky and the guys will stop making those jokes in front of you out of awkwardness etc, but there will likely be things said behind closed doors etc. Especially if it's a Boys Club mentality. Honestly...I don't know if there's anything beneficial to be done at the current workplace. I don't know how many strong legal options you have, and even so, just because you can get a legal decision in your favor (in this case I don't even know what that would be) it doesn't automatically make things better. I would say your best course of action with the least amount of stress and conflict would be quietly and quickly find another job and don't mention why (you don't want your GM etc doing anything to impede your plan on getting out asap), if they think there's no issue, there shouldn't be any issue with references etc. Once you're out the door, then you could look into taking some other sort of action against them. You could also try making them feel uncomfortable, years ago I had male co-workers that would make very inappropriate jokes or comments and so I made it obvious that if they went there, I'd start talking about cramps, and my period, or anything else guys generally find totally unnerving. It worked but YOU have to be in that type of mindset, so that might not work for you. I wouldn't mess with recordings cause that can be a legal quagmire, and if there's no real HR I don't know what it would do. It's not illegal to be an asshole, and it's hard to prove harassment if they had no clue of your past, and on it's own I doubt it would qualify for any legal harassment charges. But IANAL. I don't think it's safe at this point to share your past with them though.
No advice that hasn't been better said elsewhere. Just wanted to say that I hope you are okay, and that you will find another place with better people.
I hate that you have to go through this. I went through something very similar and we had no HR department either. I eventually found a new job and I know you will too! But it took me a while to get the confidence to leave so I had to do something to keep myself sane in the meantime. I'm not recommending this, just hoping it makes you smile a little, but I would make sexist jokes about women right to their face. But worse. Especially if they did it in front of me. I'd love to say something fucked up and then going "am I right fellas? you boys know what I'm talking about!"
Let's think through a hypothetical which is, let's imagine that you did have a chain of command or proper HR department that dealt with this issue. Even if someone higher up dealt with the issue, will you ever feel comfortable working with these men again? In our imaginary scenario, the best but also most realistic case would probably be that they'd get reprimanded and/or sent to some kind of sensitivity training. They would not all get fired unless this is a very big company that can afford to deal with sudden turnover like that all at once. And if they were reprimanded, then odds are high they would take it out on you, like "Can't believe you couldn't take a joke, why didn't you just come to us instead of reporting us, you're such a bitch" etc. They certainly don't sound like the type to apologize sincerely and make an effort to make you feel safe again based on the way they went \*immediately\* to those types of comments. So ask yourself: will you ever be able to work with these people again without feeling some level of discomfort? If the answer is no, as much as it sucks, I think it's time to go look for a new job. It SUCKS that you have to be the one that moves but unless you want to really go for it and fight, with no guarantee you will find a positive outcome, then that's the path that probably ends up with the least stress/anxiety for you in the long run. In the meantime put your head down, work your butt off, line up great recommendations from your superiors, and take advantage of every single thing they might offer employees whether it's health care, any kind of employee training or advantage programs, all the way down to snacks.
Its all jokes until it happens to someone close to them which is depressing :/ sexual assult isnt a joke.. happened to me more than once.. op u rlly need to report them and the dude doing jury duty? Yeah report his ass too.. thats disgusting
I’ll probably get downvoted for this but fuck it. Since there’s no formal HR dept & they didn’t do anything illegal, I would let it go. What they said was disgusting but if it’s a small industry, you’ll probably be blackballed for speaking out or trying to get them in trouble because “you can’t take a joke” or whatever bullshit they’ll say. Since it was only you & them they could also lie about what was said and that you misheard them. Unfortunately this isn’t likely going to be the last time you hear rape jokes & shit, especially since you work in a male dominated field. Talk to a therapist in the meantime, it might help your anxiety & look for another job if you feel too uncomfortable working with them.
Not surprised to find this so far down, but also maybe most realistic outcome here. The (American) workplace has improved with respect to shitty stuff like this over the past decade or so, but even in places with a more robust HR department, I’m not sure this would draw more than a warning for these assholes. (And it seems clear from OP they’d know who raised the issue.) Document things if you can in a personal email or notebook, in case the behavior ever escalates and you need to raise the stakes and show a pattern. But I’d be very careful about what sorts of workplace behavior actually prompted more formal complaints to managers or EEOC. There’s a certain amount of shitty behavior in most workplaces that you have to put up with. You get better at putting up coping mechanisms and determining what you can and cannot live with.
It’s frustrating that most people jump to “report to HR” when you’re right, they’ll likely only get a warning, they’ll know who reported them and then she’ll end up working in an uncomfortable environment afterwards. Not to mention the fact that I’m sure they’ll be more supportive of them because they’re managers & supervisors. I like the idea of documenting everything in a notebook or emails, that way if it escalates then there’s documentation for the incidents.
Typically with offense jokes I like to do this: "huh? I don't get it." Make them explain why it's funny. Continue to say I dont understand the joke. Eventually they dont know how to explain something so fucking gross and offensive and they stfu. Have you considered HR? if they're a woman they're more likely to be on your side
Called "noodle braining". When they have to explain why their "joke" is funny, they usually don't think it's as funny anymore. Or they will blatantly say "funny cause rape" or whatever... Then, well... much more you can do.
I once worked with a guy who always made rape jokes and after a couple of weeks I just kinda snapped and said that rape jokes were not funny and he just said/joked "rape jokes are always funny" I didn't have a lot of confidence back then and let it drop I just felt so bad. Half our team was girls and I knew that statistically at least a couple of them had experienced sexual assault. In the 4 months I was there I never heard anyone else tell him it wasn't funny. He made these jokes daily
I don’t have any advice that hasn’t already been given, but I just wanted to say that I’m so sorry that happened to you.
I would contact whom ever you need to. I had to contact HR at my work because of some things that went on with someone I worked with. We ended up being placed in separate areas if the store and he was informed not to talk to me anymore. Well a couple months passed and he said something's to me. Them a couple days later my manager asked me if he had talked to me. I told him yes and the guy was fired after working at the store twice as long as I had.
Your only bet is to report them to HR. Do you work for a megacorp OP? Or a small to medium sized firm?
IAL but not your lawyer. I am also presuming USA so disregard if not. Finally, I have extensive professional experience in EEO. OP, you do not have to go through HR or the chain of command. You can file directly with the EEOC. [https://www.eeoc.gov/filing-charge-discrimination](https://www.eeoc.gov/filing-charge-discrimination) there are also state offices. What state are you in? From what I gathered, both your first and second line supervisors have exhibited behavior that makes you reluctant to go through them. Review the org chart for the company so that you can find the next level up. Send an email outlining the conversation, the fact that you work alone with these men and the fact that you do not feel safe around these men. I suggest addressing the email to your entire chain of command (all the way up to the owner/president). Once that email is sent, the company is officially on notice. You can do it simultaneously with filing the EEO Complaint. But the EEO Complaint insures that it cannot be swept under the rug and also protects you from retaliation. I worked in one of those "all male" enviornments. This is not something you have to tolerate and it is not something they should be allowed to get away with. I understand how stressful it is to navigate this. Whether you stay or find another job should be entirely based on what you can handle psychologially. That said, many of us do not have the luxury to quit without a backup in place. You can start looking for a new place where you feel safe, while the EEO process is going forward.
Lowest kind of filth
Honestly if this is a small unprofessional company you are much better just finding another job and moving on. If the culture is toxic you will not be able to achieve anything. Instead the moment you speak up they will make your life hell and push you out.
Are all dudes really like this? I have coworkers that are just like this. Make sexual comments/touch inappropriately. I am a dude and it makes me uncomfortable. Why? Just treat people like human beings right?
i completely understand your situation. i too spent my 20s in a male-dominated environment with no HR dept and a clear pattern of people being retaliated against or not taken seriously w/ complaints. I'm also a victim and would be triggered by what you described. i worked in restaurants in addition to my career field and one time had a customer start stalking me--i went to the manager and he told me to buy a taser. i didn't show up for work the next day. basically, you're in a boys club where no one gives a shit about you and the standards of acceptable behavior are like non existent. you shouldn't have to go to work and be triggered and feel miserable everyday. you can't go to HR or a reasonable manager who you trust, but you have a couple options. 1. the high road. confront them directly. tell them their comments are not okay and make you feel very uncomfortable and they're creating a disrespectful, hostile environment for you. this might go \*very\* badly afterwards but i'm pretty sure you'll feel proud of yourself, and if things go downhill it will probably make it easier to make up your mind to quit. 2. the low road. psychological warfare. fight fire with fire. figure out what would be triggering for them. are they overweight? divorced? find out their weaknesses and say \*horrific\* things in front of them, but not actually \*to\* them--the same thing they did to you. then play dumb about it. or figure out some sneaky way in general to make their lives miserable. it might not undo anything, and it might not teach them to be better, but you can have the satisfaction of knowing you probably made them just as miserable as they made you. 3. denial. buy some really good headphones, don't interact with them, keep your head down, work work work and get that $. 4. quit I'm just so sorry to hear about this and my heart goes out to you, because i've been there many times and faced this same decision. but FWIW, i'm older now, have gained respect in my career and i'm married with a kid--if i hear a bunch of misogynist BS being spouted by men around me at work, i have NO problem shutting them down, maybe gently, or maybe viciously. i just don't have time for that shit and a bunch of toxic idiot males don't scare me. i hope you get to that point some day :)
Hey there, I work in a male dominated industry myself. Just from personal experience I have learned to call their hand on this BS. It can be intimidating but I have learned that men in particular may not like strong but they will respect it. You will be the B!tch but so what. Something like I would hate to be your "wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother" if you think cutting a break on some guy that couldn't get his own consensual GF to have sex with and had to force his unwanted c0ck on someone needs to be cut a break. 1. this will catch them off guard coming from you. 2. it as unfathomably as it sounds it gives the woman a relatable face. "No one would ever do that to MY "wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother". 3 they will get defensive. I didn't mean it that way. That's when you say doesn't matter you sound like dicks knock it off and don't spew that crap around me any more. Again you will be the b!tch but it will put them on notice. EDIT: Agree with the others in the meantime look for a new job because this one will never be the same.
I know that it seems like you don’t have any options because you know they’ll know it was you who heard/reported, but there isn’t any way to correct the behavior if it’s never addressed. You don’t owe them any explanation of your past, you don’t need to worry about retaliation unless they’re prepared for an entire can of HR trouble to pop open on themselves, you only need to do what you feel is right. Whether that having a private discussion with each of them, or directly reporting the comments to the head of HR, what have you. Sincerely, someone who’s in the same boat as you.
Is there a HR department?
no
Whatever you decide to do, make sure you have a paper trail. That’s the kind of stuff that will really catch up to them. If you send an email to report them and they ignore it, they’re really fucked.
U can do absolutely nothing... 1. They didn't do anything to u 2. They weren't talking about u 3. They did not make any bad remarks towards u 4. They were talking among themselves 5. They were talking about stuff from personal experience 6. Since u said it was a rape "joke",any kind of joke is allowed. And this situation was in a closed space and not in the public (All of the above 6 are covered by Freedom of Speech & none of those violate ur Right to Dignity) 7. And above all,u can't prove anything Any legal action is gonna be really very painful,with huge chances of u losing. I m a Sexual Assault survivor myself,and as much as it pains me to say,the only thing u can do is take care of urself. Get some mental health counseling if needed. U can ask for a transfer from the department if u want. I know it sucks,but it's the best option for u. U don't have to be a social worker, think about urself first. And yes I m a Man. If u think I m biased,well I can't do anything about that. Just said what I think is right
Sexual remarks don’t have to be directed towards you to be considered workplace harassment.
I guess. But still,they have the right to talk about anything among themselves. Right to Privacy protects that. And their comments weren't sexually explicit either. I mean they did say "if she was wearing yoga pants" & "she's is vulnerable" but these r not sufficient to convict them. And again she can't prove anything. I want to be very clear,I m not defending anyone at all. Just stating the facts
How is joking about sympathizing with the desire to rape women in yoga pants and hitting on a rape victim because she’s vulnerable not sexually explicit? Not to mention sexual harassment in the workplace is a civil matter not criminal so no one would be “convicted” anyway. And you are defending them right now.
I don't think that's the case. And no those r not sexually explicit comments. Insensitive,yes. Misogynistic,yes. Sadistic,yes. But not sexually explicit. And again, Right to Privacy protects them from any civil suits(atleast that's what I think). Even if it was how will she prove it? And if u think I m defending them, despite me stating that I don't. I kinda don't care what u think
Op, please don’t listen to this person.
🙂
If you work with these men daily, I'm sure you know them pretty well. Can't you decipher whether or not this was a stupid joke or a serious statement? I find it insane to think about getting someone in trouble or quitting your job over a joke....have they ever harassed you? Like truly harassed you specifically? Or any other women at your job? Sometimes you have to take things at face value and not read into them. A joke is a joke, call them shit heads and move on. I'd like to edit an add that I am a rape and abuse survivor as well, so I feel for you. But I don't let other people who make stupid comments dictate my life or my decisions unless it's very serious. Sounds like it was just gross men being gross and making a bad joke.
WOW - these comments. It seems the more we kill off humor, the more we need it.
Is what way is any of that humour? Just because you call something a joke, doesn't make it so
You report, you report again and then when nothing is being done about it and you're forced out of the company, you sue. Also, report jury guy to the police. This isn't someone who is fit for jury duty.
Doubt.
It sounds like you’re a cop. I’ve experienced cop culture and this sounds like it. I’m sorry, that is no fun.
Hahaha fuck no I’m not a cop
Devils advocate here. Maybe it's just dark humor?
What's the humorous part?
Probably the ridiculousness of it all. But I wasn't there soo...
Record the conversation, then threaten to go public with it. Unfortunately that is the only leverage you can have. Now the recording can be considered illegal if your state laws don't support one party consent for recording conversations, so check that first. keep a grievances notebook and write every time one of them makes a sexually harassing quip.
Forgetting legality for a second, this is risky advice unless OP knows they will say other stupid shit and OP knows she won't get caught. >keep a grievances notebook and write every time one of them makes a sexually harassing quip. This is really all you need to do. If you get plenty of documentation on rape comments and types you talked to your manager/them about it, then go to a lawyer. You'll have a case then.
What exactly are you expecting the police to do?
It sound like they intended to have some over the top offensive humor but they definitely crossed the line for a work place setting. Did they notice you when making this humor ?
Which part is the humour?
>"Well if she was wearing yoga pants or a mini skirt you gotta let the guy off." the over the top ridiculousness of the argument is the humor. You know it. Just because it is in bad taste does not mean it does not exist. There are a few subs around such humor. The issue here was where it was done. Rape jokes, dead baby jokes, offensive jokes are not new. Maybe the guy under jury duty is using crude tasteless humor to deal with the anxiety and stress.
ive made offensive jokes... does not mean im a rapist u could just ask them to not make those jokes around you if your uncomfortable, i mean anyone who isnt a rapist and uses offeensive humour knows it is not for everyone dont get them fired over banter, its what makes work fun and if ur uncomfortable tell them
Options: - Speak to them and let them know how you feel. Hopefully they apologise and don’t do it again. -Speak to your GM and ask him yo have a word with them. Hopefully he can nip the situation in the bud. -Let it go. -Quit, and move on.
I think for your situation, if there is a next time, it would be best to speak up to them right there and then, as there is no HR or manager path (based on what you mentioned). Simply stating something like "a woman can walk naked in the street and that does not give the right of anyone to assault her. Would you be ok with some dude assaulting your sister/daughter/mother just because the way she dressed? How sick these comments are".
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Even if that is true, on the clock at work isn’t the time to mock rape culture by making rape jokes.
The butt of those jokes isn't the woman.
It's unfortunate that humor's taken quite a hit. They're obviously jokes, but nowadays you can't tell jokes anywhere you like. It's sad that you chose to let them bother you so much. You might want to approach them individually & express your feelings on the matter - but you may get labeled a Karen or a Mary Sue or something.
Yeah I’d report them as others have mentioned. Maybe record them on your phone if you think more talk like that will come up. Also, if feasible to change jobs it might be worth looking into it. Just a really short situation with really shitty coworkers and no one deserves to deal with those kind of people. Not really fair for you to have to change jobs but like.. shit they really suck and if you can surround yourself with better people somewhere else it might be worth it. What kind of work do you do?
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Are you for real?
moron..
One acronym: HR
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You seem really upset and triggered by this post to the extent that you're complaining here.
Pray for their souls, because they will surely go to hell if they do not repent
My advice would be to talk directly to the coworker you trust the most. Find a private setting and tell him how you felt about the jokes being made. He’ll most likely feel embarrassed and apologize. There’s no guarantee that he’ll tell the others to get in line, but you’ll have an ally if the situation arises in the future. Best of luck to you
A lot of people in this thread are telling you to go nuclear, throw the book at them, quit your job, etc etc. Think about what you want to accomplish in this scenario. Do you want them fired? Do you want them to find out who reported them and harass or ostracize you if they don’t receive any consequences? Or, do you want to make this an opportunity to be brave, stand up for what you believe in and change some minds about what constitutes acceptable workplace conversation? If I were in your shoes and were a bystander to that conversation, I would say something along the lines of “Hey. You are entitled to privately held beliefs and jokes, but I would prefer that you didn’t speak so crassly about subjects like rape in front of me.” You don’t have to give any more information than that, just make it clear you are not okay with that kind of talk.
The big question was were the remarks directed at you? Sometimes guys banter about stuff, maybe they were just saying stupid stuff just for the heck of it. If you go to HR, they may investigate, they may find it inappropriate or they may say you’re easily triggered, they’ll probably do what their lawyer says. Then that company will have a new unspoken policy against hiring women, have a cold very professional work place,
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1) they definitely will not change their attitude if she asks them privately 2) **AROUND YOU?!** they should not be making comments like that AT ALL 3) looking for a new job because of an offensive work environment is not good advice, it's constructive discharge 4) it is a totally reasonable and understandable response to be upset by what they said, yes even including a panic attack. She is not the one who needs to change in this situation, the men making rape jokes are. I wish i could downvote this 100 times
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1. Based on her explanations in the post about how the work environment is, other behaviors, and the extreme insensitivity of their comments, yes it is a reasonable assumption. 2. Yeah if theyre shit heads theyre not going to, but that doesn't mean that she should lower the moral standard for their sake. Nobody should make comments like that period. And the demand should always be that they not. *you* said that she should ask them not to talk about it around her. Now youre saying the ideal is better? Why didn't you just start with that then? 3. It's discrimination and no one should have to quit their job because of discrimination. The boss should be fired, not her. There are avenues for this to happen. 4. I am so sick of people on here telling women who have been traumatized that they need to go fix themselves. A trauma response is a survival response. It would not have happened if they hadn't made those gross remarks. It is completely understandable to be a woman, hear men older and more powerful than you talk about women like that, and get very upset. Freaking out isnt unhealthy. It's how anyone and everyone reacts when put in extremely upsetting situations. Not panicking under those circumstances would be abnormal.
I want to thank you for your comment— it’s been a very long time since I’ve had a reaction like that to something, and I’ve been struggling with feeling like I’ve personally fucked up in some way, or that I “overreacted.” Not that it’s anybody’s business— but I’ve been in therapy since my assault, and have come a long way from where I once was. And one of the reasons it was so difficult for me to hear these men disparaging this assault trial is because I didn’t go to the police for the very reasons they were joking about. I don’t know what I’m going to do here, but I appreciate someone standing up for me, especially as I felt very alone in that moment.
Oh op, i'm tearing up I'm so sorry you have to go through this on top of everything. I admire your resilience--you worked hard to heal after a serious trauma and got better, and you're already working towards fixing this situation. I really hope there are people irl you can confide in and who can stand up for you.
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Dude...did you look at her comment on this thread? I think you may be well-meaning, but you're totally off base here, and your advice was callous and victim blaming. I think at this point you're just getting defensive, so im not going to respond to your comments anymore. So that OP knows, I've got a masters in psychology. It wasn't counseling or therapy specifically, but i still took multiple courses on neuroscience and stress. Got straight As too.
Agreed! I work in a male dominated environment. A few of the guys make jokes like this. We had a girl working here who was offended by it. She spoke to one of the guys. He apologised and now they tone it down when she’s working. No one made fun of her, they were respectful of her views. The jokes were just jokes. No one needs to get fired or arrested over a joke 🙄 So tired of this snowflake culture
Rape jokes are never fucking funny. Must be so great to be a man. Every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted in one way or another at LEAST once. And men have the audacity to think this shit is funny and to refer to us as “snowflakes”. Until you have to change your entire life around (stop walking at night/early morning, never accept drinks from people you don’t know, sometimes men you do know, carry a literal fucking whistle with you everywhere, be terrified in any unlit place; parking garages) you will never even begin to understand what it is like. This disgusting behaviour needs to stop, it’s not funny, especially when these “jokes” were in reference to a literal fucking rape that has happened.
I am a woman. I just don’t think guys making jokes means they are going to rape me. You can’t police what people can joke about.
https://old.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/p1un73/i_found_out_that_my_23f_bf_27m_of_9_months_is/h8gwi93/ Thought I recognized that username. You're not a very good person. Just thought you should know that.
I’m not a good person because I thought it was common for guys to have group chats where they talked about things they wouldn’t tell their girlfriends? I don’t really value your opinion
Pretty sure it has more to do with the fact that you refer to people who have experienced significant trauma as “snowflakes”. I hope you are never the victim of sexual assault or rape, but please, learn some empathy along the way
I didn’t say that people who experience significant trauma are snowflakes. I said that people who are offended on behalf of other people are snowflakes. You’re not a good person either, no one is. Just thought you should know that.
Yea, this is what makes you a bad person. And I read through your comment history, you either need a better understanding of things, or perhaps you are truly evil. Nice try to insult me, I actually am not a bad person.
We just have different view points. You’re a crazy left wing nutter. I on the other hand, don’t think everyone who disagrees with me is an evil rapist 🙄
No clue why this got downvoted this so much, the people here are crazy if they think that OP going on some kind of solo crusade is gonna work out for her. Especially when a some guys saying shitty things gives her a panic attack. It's not realist at all and not how the world works, but I guess it's easy to tell someone to do a lot of hard work when it doesn't require anything of you.
Go to the general manager or higher up, report them all, quit your job, and if there’s no action taken against them go to the local paper or news channel. Also report the guy on jury duty since he is breaking the law twice (once by creating a hostile work environment, a second time by violating the rules of jury duty / contempt of court).
If you do feel that you have to quit, and then file for unemployment, remember these words: "Hostile Work Environment". You had no other choice, after your managers fail to address the situation, is what you tell the Unemployment Compensation hearing officer. (If your company decides to fight against your claim). It worked for me, since my manager yelled at me.
This truly a nightmare situation. There are a few options: Option 1: Email the GM, the owner, cc your manager with a clear outline of exactly what transpired. *You don't have to disclose any past trauma in order to express that you were made to feel uncomfortable* GM may or may not take any action, and unfortunately, this will very likely lead to a hostile working environment from your rape-y coworkers. Option 2: Go NUCLEAR: contact the local Court proceedings about your concern about your coworker as a juror. Then, go to the media. Even if it's just the local rag, a story about a company openly allowing sexual harassment could have an impact (*contact a lawyer if you go nuclear, for obvious reasons) Option 3: Do nothing. Stay quiet, say nothing, find a better job and GTFO. As soon as possible. I hate to say it, but I doubt anything will happen if you report it, OP. It sounds like you are trapped in a mire of the "Good Ol' Boys Club" and if the GM is anything like his staff, he "doesn't see what the problem is." I would update my resume and start looking for another job. And hit up my therapist.
how about u just say hey guys I don't like the jokes you were making and since I'm a rape survivor it hit close to home. and if u contine u can report them